The Shot-Put Serve (Don't Pronate)
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- Опубликовано: 20 июл 2024
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If you want more serve power, then try the "Shot-Put Serve" technique. It was invented by Dr. Mark Kovacs, who is one of the world's leading experts in tennis biomechanics (how your body should be moving when you hit a serve, forehand, or backhand).
The point of the "Shot-Put Serve" technique is to develop long-axis rotation, which is how the shoulder, arm, and wrist should be moving when you swing up to the ball and hit.
Most people think, "Oh I gotta pronate," but pronation is just the forearm and wrist, it's only part of the equation. Check out the video for the full picture, and let me know how much more power you get in the comments :-) 
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What would be the earliest age at wich these types of drill should be introduced. Thanks you for the great content
Well at a congress with Bruce Elliot he said 70% front leg !!!!!! Not back leg 😳😳
and pronation and internal shoulder rotation is finished before the ball even gets to the net 🤔🤔if you ask me and NOT once the ball bounces on the other side.
No pronation 😳😳so from that loading position you just go up and forward without body rotation 😳😳
I hope not to many recreational players are watching because their gone be very confused as I am even after teaching 40 years and seeing in the top 100 players maybe 3 doing that which is strange if that was the case for a great serve
There’s a lot of pronation into contact. There’s also a lot of wrist snap. The pronation orients the racquet face and generally doesn’t contribute significantly to velocity. The wrist snap happens as the wrist goes from fully extended at the cocking position to almost neutral at contact. That wrist snap is a major contributor to serve velocity. Ideally, neither the pronation or the wrist snap into contact are conscious motions but they do happen. Long axis rotation past contact is nice but not an absolute. Karolina Pliskova the all-time WTA ace leader doesn’t have any significant long axis rotation past contact. Long axis rotation past contact is desirable but some people find that they can be more accurate without it.
Yes. I see it the same way. The motion concept explained here is one method of serving but it's very physically demanding. It's highly unlikely that recreational players will be able to get in that much of a coil and knee bend position on the load. If they force that position, the body will just want to release out of it too soon and not to mention coordinating all that with having to toss consistently. Not possible. Daniil Meddy is one of the better motions for most of us to copy.
If you're properly pronating there is no "wrist snap" as the wrist is already very close to a neutral position from the moment you start accelerating.
Long axis pronation past contact is not "required" for amateurs but it sure does give more power, you can see this with Murray who has a relatively underpowered serve. And as far as I'm aware there are no male ace leaders who do not rotate past contact.
@@tijgertjekonijnwordopgegeten Kyrgios varies considerably. Sometimes he has long axis rotation past contact and sometimes he doesn’t. The wrist snap happens from just after the cocking position until near contact and provides the second largest contribution to serve velocity from the upper limbs. The largest is from shoulder internal rotation. Read Elliot’s research.
@@marktace1 It seems very unlikely to me that a scientific research paper would even use the term "wrist snap", but besides that if you just look at slow motion videos of pro serves, at what point do you see a "wrist snap"?
All the way from the racquet drop up until after contact the wrist is in almost the exact same position relative to the forearm, so I don't see any space there for a "wrist snap" generating most of the power.
It's definitely possible that Kyrgios does not pronate through contact on some serves (even though I haven't seen enough serves in slow motion to say anything definitive about it), but if he goes full power he probably does rotate through it.
@@tijgertjekonijnwordopgegeten They don’t of course, but a wrist snap is a rapid flexion of the wrist. This particular paper called it hand flexion given that the wrist flexes the hand in a manner of speaking. The tennis world seems to have conflated a wrist flip with a wrist snap. The wrist flip is what happens when you flip a ball softly with the wrist flexing past neutral. Wrist snap is a rapid flexion of the wrist from extended to near neutral. It is the same motion that occurs when an infielder makes a snap throw as opposed to flipping the ball.
Haven’t watching you in a decade..dam you got old bro. You did teach me how to topspin serve circa 2007.
I would imagine you have also got old in that time, I know I have lol
If i dont "pronate" I end up hyperextending my elbow. This drill is painful for me.
The serve motion concept explained here is one method of serving but it's very physically demanding. It's highly unlikely that recreational players will be able to get in that much of a coil and knee bend position on the load ( even after training) . These positions require serious leg and core strength along with flexibility. If they force these positions, the body will just want to release out of it too soon and not to mention coordinating all that with having to toss consistently. Not possible. Daniil Meddy is one of the better motions for most of us to copy. The simpler the better. Certain fundamentals here are important, like feeling a load in your legs as a powerful base to launch upwards towards the ball, feeling a solid contact position, a reliable toss , and the tossing arm tucking into the side instead of falling away but the extreme coil and extreme knee bend are recipes for disaster . Recreational players are not Ben Shelton and they shouldn't be trying to copy him for the sake of their own well being 😀
Actually these are good drills. Nobody is going to completely change their serve motion without seeing some benefit and staying a bit more side on and driving the back hip up will benefit most players. I was just addressing some things that were taken out of context. It looks like Will may have reused some old material to put this together and twisted the context a bit.
@marktace1 agreed that some of the positions are key for power, however, my point was that there are core fundamental positions that the rec player can focus on instead of the extreme coil and knee bend to have a more achievable goal. Wawrinka, Soderling, Meddy are some examples that come to mind when speaking about efficient serve motions without any extreme positions. Serena and Pliskova on the women's side and I'm sure I've missed a few more on each
@@allboutthemojo Wawrinka has a good serve despite terrible technique. I’d never teach that.
@@marktace1 LOL ok!
Funny you say that because my friend told me that the reason why I was getting shoulder injuries was because I over extended my shoulder in the trophy position (I.e. too far back like a chicken wing). It was not realistic from me to get that advice implemented until I started facing my back towards the court and tossing the ball way out in front of me therefore giving my shoulder enough room to extend without hyper extending. I will say it starts though with a loose wrist and holding the racquet almost with the middle morning finger on the end of the butt cap so that you can get enough snap. It is really so much more efficient and easier to use the whole body than just the arm bro
Caroline Martin is the leading expert on serve. Not kovacs.
i have nothing against kovacs and maybe it works for top 100 players ( which i dont see a lot of them doing that ) but being sideways at contact like he shows at 4.10 makes me wonder veryhard , and at 7.45 his position saying that you get that once the ball bounces at the other side made me laugh very hard. maybe he didnt express himself very well but im going to look deeper into this and maybe challenge someone at fuzzy yellow balls
Well finally ...
I have never believed pronation or wrist snap are meaningful aspects of either speed or spin. Pronation is a necessity to contact the ball square on, after leading the racket on edge. And we lead on edge to have the racket move efficiently through the air: having it move square on would create resistance and especially instability. Happy to see this confirmed by actual research.
But then ... the shot put drill without racket, I'm not buying it. You take away the racket, you remove all the purpose to which the kinetic chain is operating. How can you transfer the muscle memory built in this drill into a motion WITH racket? I would buy drills without a ball, because that might allow you to focus on everything else that's going on, the trophy position, the racket drop ... But no racket?
??????????
When someone says you move in a certain way to store energy in the upper body, he must not be talking about biomechanics or even biology. The energy source in muscle is called adenosine triphosphate (ATP) and very obviously you don't get it by movement. You eat and rest to allow your body to synthesize it😂
A certain move could make the subsequent move easier or faster, but that is not because the first move stores energy. That should be very basic biomechanics.
Some of the least helpful explanation of biomechanics i have seen. The shot put just like the throwing action are misleading and simply do not align to the physics. Also this learning is constructed also as a methodology that is formatted as a training video series. The physics of sport or human biomechanics just should not be approached like this. Hitting harder and winning more points is exactly the wrong goal which a title like crush it embodies. Awful example of knowledge and learning confused by poor attitude and poor instruction. The emphasis that is more helpful is that of levers and moments in physics which inevitably focuses on swing path and transference of momentum through changing fulcrums. Its not about generating energy but transferring it efficiently along a smooth path that should be the focus.
Yeh look I’ve not really got any issues with the term ‘throwing action’ as every pro any millions of others have grown up hearing it and done just fine, but I know how it can be misleading for how some people interpret things, likewise this ‘shot put’ drill could confuse the hell out of some as to how they’re meant to swing at the ball. Probably aimed at more advanced kids trying to nut out ‘shoulder over shoulder’ but everyone throughout time has got it right without practicing pushing the ball like a shot put
Getting a good serve is about both generating energy and efficiently transferring that energy into the ball. Both are required, so I don't see what's wrong with instructing how to generate more power.
@@tijgertjekonijnwordopgegeten no no I get it and can see the benefits for sure. My issue is with so many of these coaches having issues with certain analogies and teaching methods only to substitute with other analogies and teaching methods that also could be interpreted differently to how ‘correct’ they see it…they say ‘throwing action’ or ‘trophy position’ is so bad to use, even though every pro grew up hearing that and did just fine, but now happy to substitute with ‘cocking position’ or a shot put drill pushing the ball, which I see can benefit for learning ‘shoulder over shoulder’ but that typically always happens naturally without much thought to it anyway. I have no issues with any of that being used though because everyone learns and interprets differently so you need 1000 different options up your sleeve for people who aren’t getting it
@@TheTennisDaddy That makes sense, and I think we also need to separate the terms that are being used to teach with and the terms that are being used to actually properly understand what is going on.
It's not always best to tell students exactly what they're biomechanically supposed to do, and these analogies (that might technically be wrong) can get them to do the right thing. So if people use analogies to teach I also don't have a problem with it unless it causes injury.
However, when trying to actually understand what is going on I think it is important to use the proper terms, but as you said replacing analogies with other ones won't help with this.
@@tijgertjekonijnwordopgegeten 100% agree