I recommend using a silencer co spacer for the M&P if you want to run a suppressor on it. Thanks for the video, very informative and best deep dive I've seen.
Another nifty trick, the barrel can come out of the slide without removing the thread protector. I hope the engineer behind this gets acknowledgement some day.
and that has caused issues already since the shroud is threaded and not the barrel. The bore of the threaded shroud is not square with the barrel bore and is causing baffle strikes already.
I know it would be a pain but i wish there was a vid showing how to clean and lubricate this gun. i have been away from shooting for more than 25 years and am returning to it and like you i am 63 with average hands . I have aprox. 500 rounds through my 5.7 now i have broke it down several times i can see (sorta) where the points are to put the oil it would be a great help to see it done once . Thanks and great vid
I would 100%, when I reviewed the Ruger there where things that jumped out to me. All have come true, including frame breaking with just American Eagle and SS197 ammo. Guns that have NEVER fired SS195/SS198 or any other full power ammo have the frames breaking or the frame rail shattering. If you get a chance I would dump the Ruger and get the S&W. While the M&P has some minor issues, the baffle strikes etc I see no CORE issues with the M&P, and nothing that can't be fixed/updated down the road.
I am having nose down magazine failures with the M&P when loading 21 rounds or greater. The internal dimension of the M&P 57 magazine is less than 1.58" . Ammunition measures OAL: Am Eagle: 1.589" FN197: 1.589" FN 195: 1.580" FN 198: 1.58" Elite T6B 1.578 The M&P follower leg is .5" long where the FN and Ruger 67 follower legs are about 1.25" long
CIP spec for the 5.7 is 1.590. ALL of EA's ammo is 1.585 or shorter due to some of the early gen 2 FsN mags being tight. Follower not withstanding the magazine being tight is the biggest issue . I don't see the legs being the issue. Legs can be an issue with the last two rounds fired from a magazine NOT the first on a full mag. What I suspect is happening is the rounds are binding inside the nag body when the mags are full. Early Ruger mags had this issue. I still see the true solution is a larger internal dimensions front to rear inside the magazine. Before you ask, yes I knew about issues like this for decades and S&W could have easily reached out to me but the fucking egos of giant corporations is beyond epic and they would never work with a small company like me.
@@richardwaid4718 So you haven't looked at my channel. If you look just a few videos ago I did a speed test sing S4 in the FsN, R57, PSA Rock, and S&W 5.7 side by side.
@@EliteAmmunition Thanks Jay, I’ll be sure to check it out. By the way, where do you stand on the Lee dies these days for 5.7? A # of yrs ago I made a bulk purchase of 5.7 ammunition from PSA (on sale $15 a box) - (and several 100 T6b from you as well) I’ve been reticent to shoot any of it due to replacement costs. I’d like to start shooting and reloading it. I just watched your six years ago reloading video and was hoping you would provide me with a current opinion on dies. Best Regards, Rich
Thanks! I had wondered about suppressing a shroud. I had guessed this is why the 22mag isn’t threaded. I wonder if fouling may get in and cant the barrel some. I REALLY enjoy shooting 62gr subs with a suppressor, so hopefully they’ll figure this out (though the PSA ROCK mags will work in my LC Charger). New subscriber and off to watch your rock video! :)
This is why I brought up the fact the gas system is a booster system. The barrel moves back so much with the slide that the pressure drops to the point it needs the booster system .
I have a S&W 5.7. I am thinking about getting a FN 57 MK3. I have not had any reliability issues with the S&W, but I think the FN might be a tiny bit more reliable. Do you agree? Should I just spend my money on ammo and not buy the FN?
I am at around 6k on the S&W. So far other than the small trigger guard and barrel to shroud threading off center causing baffle strikes, I have had zero real world issues. These issues are all common first gen crap and I fully expect S&W to fix them. The FsN is on it's 6th gen, going back to 1992 and has been used in combat since 1995. We will have to wait and see. I thought the Rock was a homerun until long term the damn cams started breaking. I like how thin the S&W is. That comes at a cost. The FsN frame is thick and has been made thicker over the years and also polymer mix updates and strengthened. They are both single action hammer fired, I can work miracles with the trigger pull on the FsN, I HATE the M&P blade safety bullshit, YMMV, . At this point the FsN has had it's bugs worked out and my catalog for custom parts and sights for the FsN runs VERY deep. All my carry gear is all for FsN's. For you, starting from scratch though tough call between FsN and M&P. While I prefer the location of the FsN safety levers the M&P has traditional thumb levers option. Tough call. I would suggest getting more ammo and training with your M&P first would be the best way to go. I plan on making a trigger for the M&P that has pre and over travel adjustments.
No clue I haven't looked into it. It could or couldn't I have not spent anytime at all looking at the Sig. To be honest, since the Sig Pro, I have one, Sigs just have not impressed me. Something happened, the feel, the ergos all seem to suck to me now. I HATE the magazine catch on the 365 since when you push it, the other side pushes into your palm making it almost impossible to drop the mag without moving your hand around. Stupid.
My SW wouldnt cycle the s4 ammo reliably. Would cycle, eject fired round, load next round but would be out of battery. Seemed almost too much recoil and slide bouncing from battery to not battery on the forward movement. But just a guess on my part. No issues with any other ammo.
You might have a piece of neck in the chamber, also with the chamber being new it might have a buildup of lacquer in it. You need to clean the chamber after every range trip with a Q-tip soaked in carb clean. You initial cleaning will need to be done with a 9mm bore brush soaked in Carb Clean. NOTE:NO solvent, parts cleaner or de-greaser will have any effect on the lacquer buildup. See here. ruclips.net/video/HPXXzrnaEek/видео.html
good info! When it comes to pressure-curve, and setting the M&P aside...are you aware of differences in other guns and possibly more pressure in the Ruger 57 or LC? Or would the ROCK, FSN, Rugers all be basically the same? So that if someone developed a load in an FSN or PS90...and found it didn't blow primers for example, might it end up blowing them in something else like an LC? Also setting aside lacquer - but strictly in regards to build design.
How so, I am not understanding the first part your question. The FsN was designed around the round. The FsN can handle pressure MUCH higher then the P90/PS90. It's delay is so great the FsN can easily handle 65K PSI rounds. Weaker versions of the FsN cam system is used in the PSA Rock, and R57. Weaker in their execution though, NOT in design. Now the Keltec has ZERO delay on the blowback and this is why EA ammo is not allowed for it and even the SS198 will bend the cross pin in the back of the receiver. Could the systems in the PSA or R57 make for more primers popping? PSA could have and has issues with primer debri building up and clogging the channel. this is common for 5/7 pistols and why you need to clean it with carb cleaner, I have a video showing how to do this. This could be exacerbated in the PSA buy the fact the firing pin is held in a plastic housing. The Ruger, well it's a shitshow . One of the issues is the polymer recoil rod on the R57 self destructs. It causes the slide to drag during recoil. That would cause primers to pop. Also MANY of the early Rugers had UNDER spec chambers. This caused all sorts of pressure issues including primers popping, cases separating, cases not extracting etc.
@@EliteAmmunition sorry if I didn't word it clearly. I understand the M&P is such a different system - that pressure would be of course different and your video showed that nicely. So I meant aside from the M&P, are there enough differences in other guns' pressure spikes. You answered it quite well. I realize there's so many factors that could make it so loads on the forum might work for one person, but pop primers for another - even though they think they are duplicating exactly. But since you covered it in the video, and I've wondered for awhile if it could just be the gun cycling design, firing-pin, etc. that could account for enough difference when we see they work up a load with a PS90 and someone tries it in an LC and even though velocity seems same-ish enough, pressure could be different and cause pressure-sign problems. I already did use your video to rid the lacquer and polish. Thanks much!
I think he may be asking about the fact that the m&p 5.7 seems to hit about 50 fps lower than the rock and ruger. I’d rather the lower recoil, better trigger, and more reliability than 50 extra fps though
no, was asking about other guns and whether there are various pressure differences between them...@@tylerleteff3509 and not considering the m&p which is obviously different. He answered it well
@@tylerleteff3509 and for what it might be worth...I've only done a small amount of groups to compare the M&P, which I just bought to my Ruger 57 (AAC vmax, Fiocchi FMJ, +3 FN types - ss195, 197 & 198) and for those 5 ammos, the average difference in FPS was just 25.6 FPS, which is an average of 1.34% difference. But the recoil is night vs. day. I feel like the Ruger pressure is more than it ought to be, but don't have others like an FsN or Rock to compare to. So that jives w/what Jay said and my chamber on the Ruger could be small so that it creates that awful muzzle-flip
5.7x28mm was designed around small rifle primers. SS192/SS195/SS198 and ALL EA ammo use small rifle primers. The cheap ammo uses small pistol. Here is one of the issues with the Rock. It's striker spring has issues with the rifle primers. I have had no primers issues with the S&W so far.
@@EliteAmmunition interesting. r43s from rr fires several before getting light primer strikes. But just gonna go with ss198 can’t find a better round that runs perfect for shit lol. Thanks for the tip
You're the authority on the 5.7x28 cartridge? Explain to me why it is that you are selling the ammunition upright in the box? FN had it right sell the ammo lying down in a 2"x4 box that can easily be thrown in a pocket for transport. I realise the cartridges you produce are speciality rounds that are not mass-produced, but remember why the cartridge was produced in the first place. Then I forgot the name on the box. Elite Ammunition. The ammo is made of gold and platinum it's elite because the layperson could never afford it.
@@EliteAmmunition Not complaining, just trying to make sense of it all I understand what a fee market is. We all have choices that's the beauty of this market. Get Rich and die trying.
@EliteAmmunition Maybe I'm disappointed with the loading for the cartridge in general. I spent 70.00 per box on Gold Dot hollow points that completely fell apart after cycling them through the pistol. This was before I learned about the special coating it needs for the brass. All I'm really saying is the cartridge is a Train wreck.
@@ChrisKartes No it's train wreck when no matter what the size of the company if they don't know how to load the 5.7 it will end poorly. I have been manufacturing new 5.7 for 20 years including designing 5.7 specific bullets, my own blended replacement coating and even my own improved brass. If you apply standard manufacturing process to the 5.7 it will fail every time. This also gives you some insight into the massive egos of the middle of the road skilled people that work in giant companies were they can hide in committees. These companies know who I am and at anytime could have contracted me to set up their lines and help them develop a product line. That though is not the giant company mindset, and I know it well I was an Engineer for HP among others and had to deal with it first hand. Hence why I started my own company.
@@EliteAmmunition I can admire your dedication to the round, and we need more people willing to learn what works and what won't. As far as large companies loading shit ammo we'll in the end it's anything for a dollar. That only works temporarily then people wise up to that BS. Keep doing what you're doing. I wish I could post pics on this platform then you can see with your own eyes the taper crimped crap that Gold Dot produced. You're right bigger companies could give a shit less .
Thank you for your time making this video! It helped tremendously with understanding my newest family member!
Great video
I recommend using a silencer co spacer for the M&P if you want to run a suppressor on it. Thanks for the video, very informative and best deep dive I've seen.
Great review. Love this gun. Thanks Jay!!
Glad you sat through the whole thing!!!!
Friggin meant to be here for the drop in case someone was in chat., Got tied up with other BS.
Another nifty trick, the barrel can come out of the slide without removing the thread protector. I hope the engineer behind this gets acknowledgement some day.
and that has caused issues already since the shroud is threaded and not the barrel. The bore of the threaded shroud is not square with the barrel bore and is causing baffle strikes already.
I know it would be a pain but i wish there was a vid showing how to clean and lubricate this gun. i have been away from shooting for more than 25 years and am returning to it and like you i am 63 with average hands . I have aprox. 500 rounds through my 5.7 now i have broke it down several times i can see (sorta) where the points are to put the oil it would be a great help to see it done once . Thanks and great vid
I will make one, but youtube WILL pull it down. You will have to follow us on our Rumble channel where I can post the video up on.
Nice little pistol, might trade in the ruger 57 for this
I would 100%, when I reviewed the Ruger there where things that jumped out to me. All have come true, including frame breaking with just American Eagle and SS197 ammo. Guns that have NEVER fired SS195/SS198 or any other full power ammo have the frames breaking or the frame rail shattering. If you get a chance I would dump the Ruger and get the S&W. While the M&P has some minor issues, the baffle strikes etc I see no CORE issues with the M&P, and nothing that can't be fixed/updated down the road.
I am having nose down magazine failures with the M&P when loading 21 rounds or greater.
The internal dimension of the M&P 57 magazine is less than 1.58" .
Ammunition measures OAL:
Am Eagle: 1.589"
FN197: 1.589"
FN 195: 1.580"
FN 198: 1.58"
Elite T6B 1.578
The M&P follower leg is .5" long where the FN and Ruger 67 follower legs are about 1.25" long
CIP spec for the 5.7 is 1.590. ALL of EA's ammo is 1.585 or shorter due to some of the early gen 2 FsN mags being tight. Follower not withstanding the magazine being tight is the biggest issue . I don't see the legs being the issue. Legs can be an issue with the last two rounds fired from a magazine NOT the first on a full mag. What I suspect is happening is the rounds are binding inside the nag body when the mags are full. Early Ruger mags had this issue. I still see the true solution is a larger internal dimensions front to rear inside the magazine. Before you ask, yes I knew about issues like this for decades and S&W could have easily reached out to me but the fucking egos of giant corporations is beyond epic and they would never work with a small company like me.
If you want to really dig into this, you could send me the bad mag to look at and figure out what is going on and create a possible fix.
I no longer use the magazine loader..
Mine are getting easier to load, but one of the mag is still a PIA after the 15 round mark.
Anybody chronograph same ammo from the SW vs Rock or FN. it would seem that you may lose some FPS from the gas design on the Smith??
@@richardwaid4718 So you haven't looked at my channel. If you look just a few videos ago I did a speed test sing S4 in the FsN, R57, PSA Rock, and S&W 5.7 side by side.
@@richardwaid4718 ruclips.net/video/1t1gAwiJCGw/видео.htmlsi=lr5SkviJtWnbJyIj
@@EliteAmmunition Thanks Jay, I’ll be sure to check it out. By the way, where do you stand on the Lee dies these days for 5.7? A # of yrs ago I made a bulk purchase of 5.7 ammunition from PSA (on sale $15 a box) - (and several 100 T6b from you as well) I’ve been reticent to shoot any of it due to replacement costs. I’d like to start shooting and reloading it. I just watched your six years ago reloading video and was hoping you would provide me with a current opinion on dies.
Best Regards, Rich
Thanks! I had wondered about suppressing a shroud. I had guessed this is why the 22mag isn’t threaded. I wonder if fouling may get in and cant the barrel some. I REALLY enjoy shooting 62gr subs with a suppressor, so hopefully they’ll figure this out (though the PSA ROCK mags will work in my LC Charger).
New subscriber and off to watch your rock video! :)
Looks like the breech can remain closed longer while the gas pressure drops.. should in theory be easier on the cases?
This is why I brought up the fact the gas system is a booster system. The barrel moves back so much with the slide that the pressure drops to the point it needs the booster system .
I have a S&W 5.7. I am thinking about getting a FN 57 MK3. I have not had any reliability issues with the S&W, but I think the FN might be a tiny bit more reliable. Do you agree? Should I just spend my money on ammo and not buy the FN?
I am at around 6k on the S&W. So far other than the small trigger guard and barrel to shroud threading off center causing baffle strikes, I have had zero real world issues. These issues are all common first gen crap and I fully expect S&W to fix them. The FsN is on it's 6th gen, going back to 1992 and has been used in combat since 1995. We will have to wait and see. I thought the Rock was a homerun until long term the damn cams started breaking. I like how thin the S&W is. That comes at a cost. The FsN frame is thick and has been made thicker over the years and also polymer mix updates and strengthened. They are both single action hammer fired, I can work miracles with the trigger pull on the FsN, I HATE the M&P blade safety bullshit, YMMV, . At this point the FsN has had it's bugs worked out and my catalog for custom parts and sights for the FsN runs VERY deep. All my carry gear is all for FsN's. For you, starting from scratch though tough call between FsN and M&P. While I prefer the location of the FsN safety levers the M&P has traditional thumb levers option. Tough call. I would suggest getting more ammo and training with your M&P first would be the best way to go. I plan on making a trigger for the M&P that has pre and over travel adjustments.
Would the blade in the trigger have anything to di with the SIG drop issue? When they removed that seemed to start having problems.
No clue I haven't looked into it. It could or couldn't I have not spent anytime at all looking at the Sig. To be honest, since the Sig Pro, I have one, Sigs just have not impressed me. Something happened, the feel, the ergos all seem to suck to me now. I HATE the magazine catch on the 365 since when you push it, the other side pushes into your palm making it almost impossible to drop the mag without moving your hand around. Stupid.
My SW wouldnt cycle the s4 ammo reliably. Would cycle, eject fired round, load next round but would be out of battery. Seemed almost too much recoil and slide bouncing from battery to not battery on the forward movement. But just a guess on my part. No issues with any other ammo.
You might have a piece of neck in the chamber, also with the chamber being new it might have a buildup of lacquer in it. You need to clean the chamber after every range trip with a Q-tip soaked in carb clean. You initial cleaning will need to be done with a 9mm bore brush soaked in Carb Clean. NOTE:NO solvent, parts cleaner or de-greaser will have any effect on the lacquer buildup. See here. ruclips.net/video/HPXXzrnaEek/видео.html
Also relevant ruclips.net/video/5Di5Ohuq0aI/видео.html
good info!
When it comes to pressure-curve, and setting the M&P aside...are you aware of differences in other guns and possibly more pressure in the Ruger 57 or LC? Or would the ROCK, FSN, Rugers all be basically the same? So that if someone developed a load in an FSN or PS90...and found it didn't blow primers for example, might it end up blowing them in something else like an LC? Also setting aside lacquer - but strictly in regards to build design.
How so, I am not understanding the first part your question. The FsN was designed around the round. The FsN can handle pressure MUCH higher then the P90/PS90. It's delay is so great the FsN can easily handle 65K PSI rounds. Weaker versions of the FsN cam system is used in the PSA Rock, and R57. Weaker in their execution though, NOT in design. Now the Keltec has ZERO delay on the blowback and this is why EA ammo is not allowed for it and even the SS198 will bend the cross pin in the back of the receiver. Could the systems in the PSA or R57 make for more primers popping? PSA could have and has issues with primer debri building up and clogging the channel. this is common for 5/7 pistols and why you need to clean it with carb cleaner, I have a video showing how to do this. This could be exacerbated in the PSA buy the fact the firing pin is held in a plastic housing. The Ruger, well it's a shitshow . One of the issues is the polymer recoil rod on the R57 self destructs. It causes the slide to drag during recoil. That would cause primers to pop. Also MANY of the early Rugers had UNDER spec chambers. This caused all sorts of pressure issues including primers popping, cases separating, cases not extracting etc.
@@EliteAmmunition sorry if I didn't word it clearly. I understand the M&P is such a different system - that pressure would be of course different and your video showed that nicely. So I meant aside from the M&P, are there enough differences in other guns' pressure spikes. You answered it quite well. I realize there's so many factors that could make it so loads on the forum might work for one person, but pop primers for another - even though they think they are duplicating exactly. But since you covered it in the video, and I've wondered for awhile if it could just be the gun cycling design, firing-pin, etc. that could account for enough difference when we see they work up a load with a PS90 and someone tries it in an LC and even though velocity seems same-ish enough, pressure could be different and cause pressure-sign problems. I already did use your video to rid the lacquer and polish. Thanks much!
I think he may be asking about the fact that the m&p 5.7 seems to hit about 50 fps lower than the rock and ruger. I’d rather the lower recoil, better trigger, and more reliability than 50 extra fps though
no, was asking about other guns and whether there are various pressure differences between them...@@tylerleteff3509 and not considering the m&p which is obviously different. He answered it well
@@tylerleteff3509 and for what it might be worth...I've only done a small amount of groups to compare the M&P, which I just bought to my Ruger 57 (AAC vmax, Fiocchi FMJ, +3 FN types - ss195, 197 & 198) and for those 5 ammos, the average difference in FPS was just 25.6 FPS, which is an average of 1.34% difference. But the recoil is night vs. day. I feel like the Ruger pressure is more than it ought to be, but don't have others like an FsN or Rock to compare to. So that jives w/what Jay said and my chamber on the Ruger could be small so that it creates that awful muzzle-flip
What primer do you recommend for hotter ammo? RR seems to misfire all the time? Or leave it alone
5.7x28mm was designed around small rifle primers. SS192/SS195/SS198 and ALL EA ammo use small rifle primers. The cheap ammo uses small pistol. Here is one of the issues with the Rock. It's striker spring has issues with the rifle primers. I have had no primers issues with the S&W so far.
@@EliteAmmunition interesting. r43s from rr fires several before getting light primer strikes. But just gonna go with ss198 can’t find a better round that runs perfect for shit lol. Thanks for the tip
Couldn't a hinged trigger like the P99 be used instead of the dingus? Accomplishes the same thing and doesn't look retarded like the M&P half trigger.
Not a bad idea.
You're the authority on the 5.7x28 cartridge? Explain to me why it is that you are selling the ammunition upright in the box? FN had it right sell the ammo lying down in a 2"x4 box that can easily be thrown in a pocket for transport. I realise the cartridges you produce are speciality rounds that are not mass-produced, but remember why the cartridge was produced in the first place. Then I forgot the name on the box. Elite Ammunition. The ammo is made of gold and platinum it's elite because the layperson could never afford it.
So you're complaining about how I box my ammo, and the cost of my rounds. Well then don't buy them. Go buy ACC and Federal.
@@EliteAmmunition Not complaining, just trying to make sense of it all I understand what a fee market is. We all have choices that's the beauty of this market. Get Rich and die trying.
@EliteAmmunition Maybe I'm disappointed with the loading for the cartridge in general. I spent 70.00 per box on Gold Dot hollow points that completely fell apart after cycling them through the pistol. This was before I learned about the special coating it needs for the brass. All I'm really saying is the cartridge is a Train wreck.
@@ChrisKartes No it's train wreck when no matter what the size of the company if they don't know how to load the 5.7 it will end poorly. I have been manufacturing new 5.7 for 20 years including designing 5.7 specific bullets, my own blended replacement coating and even my own improved brass. If you apply standard manufacturing process to the 5.7 it will fail every time. This also gives you some insight into the massive egos of the middle of the road skilled people that work in giant companies were they can hide in committees. These companies know who I am and at anytime could have contracted me to set up their lines and help them develop a product line. That though is not the giant company mindset, and I know it well I was an Engineer for HP among others and had to deal with it first hand. Hence why I started my own company.
@@EliteAmmunition I can admire your dedication to the round, and we need more people willing to learn what works and what won't. As far as large companies loading shit ammo we'll in the end it's anything for a dollar. That only works temporarily then people wise up to that BS. Keep doing what you're doing. I wish I could post pics on this platform then you can see with your own eyes the taper crimped crap that Gold Dot produced. You're right bigger companies could give a shit less .