HiFi VHS vs Reel to Reel - Recording direct to tape
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
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In this video I compare the audio qualities of a Panasonic Hi-Fi NV-HV61 VCR and Sony TC-399 Reel to Reel recorder. I use a Tascam 488 as the mixer and record direct to tape with a live 2 track recording session.
Here's a previous video I made which looks closer at the technology behind HiFi VHS recordings.
• HiFi VHS vs Cassette T...
Before I see the results, my favourite is B. I love what it does to the vocals. So interesting!
Ooh it was the VHS, nice! How would you go about distributing your songs to people, fully analog? Bounce to VHS and then copy them to cassettes? All great stuff dude!
Thanks for having a listen dude, and that was my favourite too. That’s a great question about how to do a fully analog release from VHS, I’d love to do that! I think you’d need to do a 2nd generation bounce to another VCR to get the gaps between songs and overall mastering right, then from there record to cassette, reel to reel or vinyl. You’ve given me an idea for another video!! 😅👌
No surprise there. I've been using 4-head HiFi VCRs to record audio for decades. They are great, especially for recording live radio broadcast of shows. You also can take advantage of the built-in Time Recording feature to set the time when it'll record the whole show (including commercials). I've even used it to assist in transfers from vinyl records to tape to preserve the warmer tone. The only thing you need to remember doing is record a blank "leader" about 1 minute in SP mode at the very beginning and end of the tape. Sometimes the ends of the tape are not stable or have wrinkles during the manufacturing. After that, you're fine. You will need to make sure the level is perfect (not too loud going into distortion or risk bleed-through and not too soft you start hearing background noise) before recording.
Hey, great advice there and thanks for watching. I also like to leave about 30 second gaps in between recordings to avoid tracking noises. Does you vcr have input meters?
@@wehappyfewmusic Unfortunately, no. Mine is a late 90s RCA model (something-634-something) I bought brand new and has served me faithfully even today. Although, I think the motors might be wearing out. Sometimes it's hard to rewind, fast-forward or eject. And sometimes it shuts right off when you insert a tape or ejecting one. Oh, if looking for NOS tape, stick with Maxell brand; that gives the best quality out there for conventional formulated tape. Don't get Sony, as the quality is terrible and the oxides rub/come off during playback, causing a horrendous noise you can hear.
@@minty_Joe cheers for the tips about tapes! I’ve recently got a box of NOS stock Maxell, so that’s good to have confirmation they’re the better ones. 👍
@@wehappyfewmusic I just looked today and the tapes I use are the 6 Hour Standard Grade (P/N: 060104/MDM). I got like a 12-pack for a steal back in 2007/2008. Oh, and always record in SP mode, unless it's a live 4-hour radio show.
@@wehappyfewmusic i wonder if you could go by standard numbers for line level recordings and just see how it turns out ? Ive been wondering about levels as weell
Listening on headphones the warmth of the reel to reel was very appealing
Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!
Cool! I used to run tests like this in the '90s with DAT, ADAT, a Denon 3-head cassette, crappy soundblaster(s), a Layla20 8-channel A/D, Fostex 4-track cassette and a dbx VCR. The VCR had the best vibe and fidelity on most any mixdown, except that it was too compander-y on close-mic'ed acoustic material unless you wanted that Beatles-y 'smack' to your transients ...but without the lovely Redd console color (eh...).
ottomh, your r2r needs new capacitors, and calibration for everything that moves.
It sounds like it's being low-passed at a mellow slope (6-12 dB/octave) from about 3kHz upward. You're getting about 5-7dB attenuation @10 kHz compared to the other two files. Transients are smearing; slew is looong due to low capacitance.
The VCR is swelling a few dB from about 3-7 kHz; quite strident and boost-y. Might help liven up an old dull master from that r2r some, if it's the only one you've got.
Cheers :)
Hey thanks for checking out the video and cool to hear you did similar tests in the 90’s! Yeah the Sony in this video definitely needs some attention and a full recap. I’ve since bought a refurbished revox A77 which is way clearer (it had a service/caps done by the seller).
Wow! I really thought mix B was the reel 2 reel! Mix B sounded phenomenal ❤ Really energetic and engaging. Mix C sounded flat and lifeless by comparison.
Stunned
Hey, cheers for checking out the video and sharing your thoughts! It is surprising how good HiFi VCR’s sound. 🙏🙌
@wehappyfewmusic I've spent much of my day today on ebay, hunting down VHS recorders and video cassettes, LOL 😆 Who'd have thought that in 2024?
@@EpicWinz haha, excellent stuff! Good luck with the hunt. 👍🙌
Got'em right first time, although I am a bit of a HiFiVCR expert having used them for semi professional applications for the entire 1990s. You need to remember that for the HiFi VCR to do its trickery, it uses a compander to get that dynamic range. Its a very good algorithm, but to a trained ear you can still hear the effect of compression when compared with the other two, a bit like comparing a vinyl record to a song played on the radio. Thats where your "punchier in the louder sections" comes from - the ever so slight delay in the expansion circuit reversing the compression placed there during recording. Of course the true benefit of these machines was the ridiculously long playback time they offered - so we used them mostly for playback and logging of radio programmes. I did also use a Panasonic F65 VHS HiFi deck coupled to a Sony PCM501 for mastering for a time, giving both digital and analog recording on the one tape, which was eye opening in the day especially for the digital crowd where I could instantly fade between the two or even easily have left on one and right from the other. I can say that I often ended up printing the HiFi VHS track instead of the PCM one - and the customer could never tell the difference 🙂
Well done for getting the mixes right straight away, and thanks for your comment and interesting background information. I see what you mean about the inbuilt compression settings changing the sound with VCR’s, and as you say, the long play back option is a massive bonus (as is the low price 😅). 👍
It doesn’t. Panasonic uses only a licensed rms meter from dbx in models with autoleveling like that one in a video. There is no need to use a compander with +-150kHz bandwidth.
Hifi Vhs holding its own and then some as usual!
Yeah it always amazes me how clean it sounds for an affordable analog recorder!
The two tape formats color the sound and the digital is just a pure capture of it, although the VHS was very nearly transparent. The 1/4" tape was least transparent but in a flattering way. At 15ips it would probably be even harder to distinguish. Really fascinating experiment, thanks for posting. ✌️❤️
@@DaveZula Thanks for having a listen and great synopsis David! I think you’re right about a 15ips reel to reel (hopefully I’ll be able to try one at some point 😊).
Just a note, on this interesting comparison. The VHS video is a low-end hi-fi recorder, I don't think it even has volume control. Not all VHS hi-fi videos' sound quality is the same! You have hi-fi videos (prices at the time) from 400 to 6000 euros! The difference to the best is abysmal... for example to Panasonic AG-8700 or JVC BR-S822... In any case, the sound quality, even on the lowest line, is excellent. But for high-end, only top-end, usually pseudo-pro or true-pro S-VHS machines.
Excellent point and that makes a lot of sense. The one I used here is a low end one and has very few features, but still did a solid job. Which other models would you recommend to people who were looking for a mid to high level unit? Thanks
@@wehappyfewmusic As I already had a Panasonic AG-8700 with only 600 hours (bought in 1999), I have been using it as a recorder in my high-end system. This recorder is a strong suggestion, just like the JVC BR-S822. However, even used, it can be an expensive option (around 2000 euros if it is in good condition). However, there are options similar to older Super VHS videos, which have excellent sound cards, manual control and top performance.
@@wehappyfewmusic Another important point is the quality of the tape. VHS tapes vary greatly in quality. The one you used is not the most suitable. They must be tapes with at least the Hi-Fi reference. This is not marketing. The problem is that the FM signal from the hi-fi is recorded in the video section but in a deeper area of the tape. The tape you used does not have the appropriate depth for the best hi-fi recording performance. I only use D-VHS, S-VHS or VHS Hi-Fi tapes.
@@pauloarpereira Cool,thanks for sharing your tip about buying the right tapes.
Before I see the answer, I prefer B. Sounds warmer to my ears. Next was C. A was too sharp. Not a great deal of difference between B and C to be honest.
I still use my HiFi VHS to record and playback vinyl. Vinyl normally only gets played once, and I record to VHS on that first play, then it’s back in the dust jacket. The benefit is you don’t have to turn the record over, and you can fit more than one album on a VHS tape. Perfect for double albums.
Hey thanks for your vote (and for sharing before seeing the results!).
Thats a great way of preserving your vinyl collection and keeping the analog experience. 👍
VHS baby!
Thanks for watching 🙌
Epic comparison man , im usually mastering in ozone and def gonna tray the VHS tapes , ive a load here from 80s so that will be interesting hearing if they are different . Mix B stood out as a fat and warm sound and i would describe A as "normal" modern sound
Thanks for checking out the video, and I think you’ll enjoy testing out mastering to VHS, it definitely has a different quality from staying in the box.
This video demonstration is awesome. I typed in Panasonic Nv-fs90 to learn more about my vcr. I am so impressed. before the results I chose B time after time. And it was Panasonic!! if this is playback on a cheap Panasonic, then how much more on a professional Panasonic?
By the way Technics is Panasonic... they were the kings in Hifi
Thanks for watching and glad you enjoyed the demonstration!
There was one mistake and the editor revealed this: you should use a VCR with an input level attenuator and an input level meter to avoid clipping made by an auto leveling system.
Excellent point! 👍
I’ve never seen a HiFi VHS recorder without manual audio input levels. I know just about every moon and/or stereo linear audio VHS had auto audio recording levels, but did any Depth Multiplex HiFi unit not have manual audio recording levels? All of mine do (two Mitsubishi and a Panasonic).
I also discovered how good VHS HIFI was back in the day. After many comparisons I had yet to find an open reel deck that could match the uncanny replication of an analogue source as a well chosen HIFI VCR. After many listening sessions I found it near impossible to hear differences between a HIFI VHS recording and it's vinyl source... whereas cassette or even expensive open reel decks never sounded identical to the source... I could always hear various degrees of coloration. My personal favourite VHS decks were by Fisher or Sanyo. Their audio sections were designed by DBX which to my ear sounded nearest to perfect of any consumer VHS machines I'd heard and certainly better than cassette or even open reel.
Thanks for taking the time to leave a message and that’s interesting to hear. I might try and get hold of one of those VCR’s as mine compress the audio a bit more than I’d like.
@@wehappyfewmusic If you are looking for Sanyo VCRs make sure they are the ones before Goldstar took over late in the game Those later ones do not perform the same audio wise. You'll know because the good sounding earlier units say DBX either on the front panel or the back panel and were made right up to about 1999. You can also find the machines under the brand Fisher and Sears. They are not star performers with video but their DBX designed audio sections are the best I've run across. Also try to use the best tapes you can find. Lot's of S-VHS tapes are still floating around.
hi my mate works in that kind of shop he doe's not got alot of VHS in any more i know he allways asking me to check them over
there is a format you missed betacam sp i have worked on alot of them over the years i know they are more pro end
i have worked on alot of the pro reel to reel decks you used to pick up from ebay in the past you can't find on there now
Hi mate, I don’t know much about betacam sp but just had a quick look and they do look rather cool 😎! They even have balanced connections! Are they fully analog and are there any particular models you’d recommend? Thanks
another thing to add here, Reel to Reel both the medium and media is far more expensive and far more difficult to deal with then VHS. Though VHS often has reliability issues as it gets old, the extreme expense of a truly high quality reel to reel deck (some fully refurbished examples like those "like new" Technics RS-1500s that are being sold these days can cost over $2000) not to mention the sheer amount of space it takes up (both the reels and the deck itself) and the chunkiness of spooling and unspooling reel to reel and the fact that good reel to reel tape has gotten extremely expensive, VHS is a clear winner in most categories.
Excellent points, reel is reel is certainly the most expensive and labour intensive audio format.
VCR is the most bass and wider stage...People dont know the value of such machines .Man SLHF-900 Sony Beta wow!
Oh yeah, that’s a nice looking bit of kit! 👌
Great video thanks! Wondering if a S-VHS tape in a S-VHS recorder would have resulted in even better result?
Thanks for watching, yes the higher definition of S-VHS would probably give a quality bump. Must try that at some point…..👍
Very cool and interesting comparison!
Do you know if there have been any portable hifi vhs recorders/players (kinda like giant walkmans)?
Are there hifi camcorders maybe?
Glad you enjoyed the comparison! I’ve not used one but Panasonic’s NV-M10 VHS Camcorder records stereo HiFi audio. Sony made portable betacam units too but not sure of the specs.
Glad you enjoyed the comparison! I’ve not used one but Panasonic’s NV-M10 VHS Camcorder records stereo HiFi audio. Sony made portable betacam units too but not sure of the specs.
Yes there are. Panasonic made several portable hifi vhs devices, such as AG 5150, 5200, 5210, 5250, 5260, 5700, 6400, 7400. They were all of excellent quality.
This is very interesting.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it! 👍
I've got 11 super drives. Amazing.
Cool, which models?
Impressive performance!
Thank you!
Can you do a step by step video of how you run the lines to record straight into the vhs from your Tascam and or from your DAW? Thank you again for a great reference video!
Hi glad you liked this video and good idea for a follow up. More of a tutorial style one right? 👍
@@wehappyfewmusic YES! Something that would be very easy for two 20 years olds to understand who only just bought their first 4 track and also use Logic
@@Checker. Here’s the new tutorial video! A few other people requested a similar thing, so I hope it makes sense and is useful. Analog Tutorial - How to record audio on a HiFi VCR Unit
ruclips.net/video/ludlspIM6Pk/видео.html
@@wehappyfewmusic thank you so much! the video was exactly what we needed!
@@Checker. you’re welcome, glad it was useful!
There is distortion from the reel to reel. Maybe rolling down the level a bit could work, or you may need an alignment.
Hey, yes the reel to reel needs some attention as doesn’t sound quite right here unfortunately.
the question is what tape stock did you use. Try it with new production ATR or the like or Maxell UD XL . I own a TC-399 and it can take whatever BIA/EQ out there as it was the last Sony Consumer Reel to reel they made.
Good point and thanks for the suggestion. The tape is mystery unfortunately as it came with the machine, and I’ve now returned it to its owner. I’ve since bought a Revox A77.
good TC 399. simply is the best.
Thanks, they are nice decks.
Hi, all ok, I had friends in the '90 that couldn't afford a DAT and they recorded the master on Hi Fi VCR, but a vintage consumer sony reel to reel can't be taken as representative of the "1/4 inch sound", it was consumer stuff, to hear the real difference you should have use at least at perfect calibrated Revox B77 ;-) In fact the reel to reel sounds to me sounds like the more scarce :D
Hi thanks for checking out the video! Yes you’re right the Sony is not quite up to the job so it’s a not a completely fair comparison. I’ve recently got a serviced/calibrated Revox A77 that records at 15ips (couldn’t stretch to the B77 😅), so might redo the comparison.
The reel to reel sounded like a 70's record...I loved it!!!!
I like that analogy, glad you enjoyed the sound!
@@wehappyfewmusic
Thank You
vcr sounded best didnt like the reel to reel.
Thanks for having a listen and sharing your thoughts!
HiFi Stereo is a modulated audio signal into a high frequency FM carrier in MHz, Sort of digital sampling into 44.1KHz, Even though FM carrier has more sampling than digital, the modulation-demodulation scheme is analog and has more losses compared to digital.
Thanks for the extra background info. 👍
Great video. More please
Hey, thanks very much! New video is in the pipeline. 🙌
I was able to guess correctly listening on my phone..
I do think the open reel machine should have sounded better though and I wonder if it is aligned and biased correctly.
Well done for working out which mix is which! The Sony was serviced recently but you may be right as I’d expected/hoped for a slightly smoother sound.
How did you record the music straight onto a vhs? Then, transfer that to a computer? Mind blown 😳
I had 4 mics running through the Tascam 488 and routed the stereo output to the VCR and Reel 2 Reel at the same time. I then took a stereo out from the same units once the recordings were complete, and recorded them into Logic Pro via my focusrite audio interface.
Buy a alesis adat black face 50€ or 100€ the quality are best.
The open reel had an issue with the left channel being dull and off balance. Open reel would not normally sound like that. Also was the open reel deck biased for that particular tape? This was a great demo.
Hi, glad you like the demo! I know what you mean about the reel deck. It’s been serviced and biased by the owner but somethings not quite right (I’m just borrowing it).
i knew right away that A was daw and lost lol, and i like b and C butt b have more pros about it butt c did add some more sounds that b did not have
Thanks for checking it out and well done for working out which was the DAW! I’ve got a revox A77 reel to reel at the moment which has more high end than the Sony here. The VCR is the best bang per buck though.
i just want to know how to record youtube and records and cds to vhs vcr recorder i have a stereo vcr with left and right recording metters i just dont know how to hook anything up thankyou for your video quite intersting.. im a senior so can you explain it slow?
Hi I’ve made this video which should help with that. How To Record Music On HiFi VHS - Analog Technique’s
ruclips.net/video/ludlspIM6Pk/видео.html
Tank you for the video. EMTEC T 120 work in hifi? Tanks.
Glad you like the video! I’ve not used that tape but it should work for HIFi recording as long as it’s regular VHS format.
Excelente experimento. Gracias me sirvió!
Many thanks, glad to hear you liked the test! 🙌
Before knowing the result, no 3 is my fave, 2 is a little more louder and 2 sounds like yr typical yt.
i think the r2r machine is not running perfectly. I can hear some fluttering
Thanks for your vote and yes the r2r is not running quite right. I’ve recently got a refurbished revox a77 which seems much better.
Thanks for your vote and yes the r2r is not running quite right. I’ve recently got a refurbished revox a77 which seems much better.
Reel to reel the best. It saturates the sound the way it is very pleasant to hear. For best result you should use the big studio reel to reel like Ampex 24 track.
Thanks for having a listen! Yeah I bet an Ampex 24 track would sound amazing, maybe I’ll get to use one someday. 👍
The DAW and VHS where far better than the reel to reel
Thanks for your vote and know what you mean, the reel to reel wasn’t quite up to spec here (I’ve got a revox A77 now which is better)
The reel to reel sounds a lot worse to my ears
Thanks for your comment. More muffled on the highs?
@@wehappyfewmusic not just the highs, just less fidelity and articulation overall. Maybe cool for an effect tho
@@catface101 yes know what you mean, it’s almost a bit gritty. It seems to work better on rockier stuff.
Would I be correct in thinking that the VCR would have some kind of auto gain function to set the recording level. This could create a compression effect making the recording sound a bit fuller/louder. When I have tried to "master to tape" lol, then I generally have the VU needles bouncing into the red a bit more than you, which I like the sound of. I do have a Revox B77 although it does only run at 7 1/2 IPS. Interesting experiment though. For the price, the VHS is certainly worth a look.
Thanks for watching and I believe you’re right and there is some kind of in built auto gain on some VCR’s. Nice choice of reel with your revox B77! I’ve recently got a serviced A77 that goes to 15ips (couldn’t afford the B77 unfortunately 😅).
@@wehappyfewmusic 15ips, that`s cool. I`ve had my B77 from new (1980) and only got it out out of storage a year ago and had it serviced and a few parts replaced for about £100 and it`s all good now. I looked into getting a 15 ips version but it was too expensive. To be fair, my machine has very few hours on it and it sounds great so I`m happy for the moment. Nice channel, I`ve subscribed.
@@limpet9 that’s cool you’ve had your B77 since new and that’s a good price to get it serviced! In some ways I prefer the sound of 7.5 ips speed on mine as it has more tape warmth. Many thanks for subscribing too!
I can't handle the fact that reel to reel have to be so dull. It isn't. Did you clean the head , demagnetize, and so on, before using machine?
Yeah, I know. It had just been serviced but it’s not working properly still. I’ve since got a Revox A77 which has just been recapped which gives cleaner results.
@@wehappyfewmusic ok. Another idea: knowing the fact that hifi vcr use compander by default, it would be extremely interesting to compare recordings from vcr and from cassette deck which have compander or using it as outside unit.
@@colloidalsilverwater15ppm88 oh yeah that would make an interesting comparison! 👍
B
Thanks for checking it out. 👍
Everything is proven if that VCR player itself doesn't have HiFi at all it causes HiFi on vhs tape itself not to work
Yes, that makes sense.
They all sound the same. Because small differences are beyond what the human ear can perceive. Whoever "finds" differences is simply lying to himself.
Thanks for checking out the video! It’s quite possible I’m in denial, but I can hear subtle differences with headphones or studio monitors.
@@wehappyfewmusic I don't think you're a denial. Probably internal equipment equalization differences. In that case you will hear some difference. But because the analog channels of the equipment are not identical. Not because one system is better than another.
I thought the video recorder sounded the clearest.
Thanks for having a listen and sharing your thoughts. 👍