The problem with the constricted air duct was that there was too much constriction (it needed to be wider by about 50%... roughly half way between where it was and the edge of the hole)... also, it should have been printed so that it stuck into the tube, not so that it was 3 or so inches from the opening. Being inside the tube would have drawn in more air instead of just ramming into the cross-currents present in the gap.
Lots of static pressure. the fan was built for volume, not static pressure. And the noose was too short and didn't drop air inside the tunnel to draw it back in. But the neck is too small and thus turbulent. Vanes might have helped.
@@kristmadsen What Is Islam? Islam is not just another religion. It is the same message preached by Moses, Jesus and Abraham. Islam literally means ‘submission to God’ and it teaches us to have a direct relationship with God. It reminds us that since God created us, no one should be worshipped except God alone. It also teaches that God is nothing like a human being or like anything that we can imagine. The concept of God is summarized in the Quran as: { “Say, He is God, the One. God, the Absolute. He does not give birth, nor was He born, and there is nothing like Him.”} (Quran 112:1-4) Becoming a Muslim is not turning your back to Jesus. Rather it’s going back to the original teachings of Jesus and obeying him
A low restrictive venturi tube would be more effective. Since it's a fan and not compressed air aiming for a 5-10% increase in airflow may be achievable.
@@Selbitschka but it was a very clever idea. Tweak the design and submit again, I think I've seen some comebacks in the series. These low pressure "fluid grabbers" when tweaked right are very efficient. I use venturi tubes to inject ozone in my house water. They suck hard (pun intended).
@@Selbitschka Try measuring the pressure produced by the fan. That will tell you how much you can narrow it. Use a length of vinyl tubing with water in it to measure pressure.
The problem with making a constricted air duct is that the back pressure from trying to compress the air fights the already low-torque motor. I had this issue when designing Ov3rdrive as well. But the flow on the batwing was beautiful!
yeah. it is restricting WAY too much. it should have maximum 20% restriction or so if even and the gap to the duct is way too big too. the end of the restriction should be inside the duct or ending directly at the duct with around a cm ring of gap for the other air around to pull in. (the values are picked by my gut and are most likely wrong or inefficient, but should work better than what was in the video)
Correct, my main complaint about Noctua is that my standard dust mesh on my computer is enough to completly hamper the airflow on the noctua fans, even though they are SP fans. I was very very surprised especially because i bought the 3000rpm pro fans from Noctua, they only states they have a sp of 7.6mmH2O where my current fans has 65mmH20 difference was 15C in case temperature. On top T30 also only have a sp of 3.3 which is completly absurdly low...
Yeah, I think the funnel shouldn't decrease in diameter as aggressively as it did. I wonder if a secondary venturi tube for the outside air would help...
No flow restriction will help it flow more air, that makes no sense. It will increase the velocity, yes, but it will decrease again once it enters the test-pipe.
@@jort93z the idea is that it creates a low pressure area that is taking air from the gap with it into the duct like a "fanless fan". the problem is just the way it is shaped and that the idea doesn't really work on such low pressures and low airflow.
You should try more testing with the t30. It would be cool to see fans that would be more efficient with more rpm/ torque. Fans like the contra rotating one and the jet engine compressor style fan from about a year ago. Also I’ve seen this a lot in your yt comments. But try making different fan classes. One would be a standard class that it basically all the fans that fit in the frame of the a12x25 and ones that have external components outside the frame of the a12x25. The external class would be interesting with fans that don’t work out like the dragons breath.
Well, We do show up to fan show down so RUclips thinks we are real fanatic fans, when we are just fan enthusiasts. also, we watch out for Copper and his friend.
The Dragon’s Breathe fan was designed for flow when it needed to be designed for static pressure and allow the flow to come from Bernoulli’s effect. It might perform a lot better if the restriction had a wider outlet hole to reduce the amount of pressure the fan is trying to fight against.
Or, you know, not have a restriction at all, and attach the fan directly. Makes no sense to attach any restriction, any restriction will make the fan more less air, and for this test you want it to move as much air as possible.
@@jort93z That's ... not how bernoulli's effect work, Think of it as tunnelling air by creating difference in pressure, as the comments said if the tunnel was wider, it would have performed significantly better.
@@amineabdz Tunneling the air is not the issue, you can get that to work, the issue is moving more air than you started with. They want to get more airflow with this device, that part won't work. Any flow restriction, doesn't matter if it is 10% or 90%, will decrease the amount of airflow. If you want this to somehow get more airflow, you need the area over which the air is spread to be considerably larger than the fan. The measurement tunnel would need to be wider, and in that case the measurement isn't comparable anymore. just attaching it directly will be more effective, no matter how they redesign their "Air maximizer".
@@jort93z you still don't really understand this, volume stream is velocity*area, if he made that restrictive tubes diameter about 10-15mm smaller than the air tunnel and made it go into that tunnel, he would benefit from that restriction. Air speed would increase by couple % and the pressure difference would suck more air through that 5-7.5mm gap between restrictor and tunnel. Dude said he studies mechanical engineering, I guess he should go back to drawing board and pay more attention at college
@@mikoajkosma4010 Well, but you are forgetting that a restriction will make the fan work against a higher pressure, making it work less effectively. If you could just make a restriction and increase airflow, surely you'd just decrease it by 99% and get fat gains, but that's not how it works. The fan will need to work harder and move less air. Well, when experimenting, some experiments go well, others fail.
Hey man thanks so much for showing off my fan (Blowsie, Blowie, whatever)! I can't believe it did almost as well as the stock design. I designed it to suck air into the center so I was very happy when the 2nd smoke shot showed exactly that. The low RPM is very interesting, I honestly have no idea how thick the blades are so I can probably lose a lot of weight and get some better performance if I load the design into some beefier 3d modeling software. Anyway thanks again!
I've been 3d printing gaskets :) Works good once you get the hang of it. So far I've put them on >> rainbird anti siphon valves ; Water hoses ; Lots of water pumps ; Sinks/faucets . I got tired of buying them. They break so often it seems like a conspiracy ! For high pressure stuff, I will include a space to fill with aquarium silicone or E600. PETG
I think it has more to do with the static pressure and that's why it goes out the side, if the pressure was lower the fan would pass the air right by the air gap and out the back like it should. But since the end of the tube is so small the air isn't compressing because the fan is weak, so it just increases pressure and flows out the sides.
in the rc airplane world when we use edf motors, there's something called FSA fan swept area(physical area swept by the blades minus the center hub area). how you neck down the tube behind the edf affects your top speed\ max thrust, a thrust tube that is 100% of the fsa will have higher static thrust(torque) and one that is necked down to 90%fsa will have higher top speed(horse power) after a certain point when constraining the thrust tube it becomes inefficient, and unable to push past the squeeze. the max we typically use is 80%. that Bernoulli tube looks like its 50% at best. id put money that the multiplier would work better if Different Fsa diameters were tried. if the fan is 120mm and the hub is about 40mm then that means 100% fsa would be an 80mm exhaust tube, and 80% of that 64mm so the workable range from 110% fsa down to 80% would be about 90mm to 65mm. that JUST the tube being efficient at its job at speeding up the air. this doesnt take into account the distance and area available for the that sped up air to "drag" more air along with it(distance from end of the tube to the beginning of the next "orifice" id start with an 80mm tube and see what it does, then id go right down to 65mm and see if its any better. it may still not work, the motor may not have enough ooompf to speed the air up significantly. only then maybe start adjusting the distance from the end of the thrust tube.
Your FSA calculation is wrong, you can't do 120-40=80 , you need to calculate the areas before subtracting, the 100%FSA exhaust tube is 113.1mm, 80%fsa is 90.5mm
Huh this is something i did not understand correctly even though ive built thrust tubes in the past. I have some edfs lying around should build an aircraft
You should really look up the video of the cheater on here. It has smoothed out air flow behind it because it has like rear cone pod behind the motor. The cheetah fan on that cheater frame would have the best chance of beating it.
I bought Anemometer and made a test rig, I got Bernoulli's principal to work but I used a blower style fan design. The best I got was 660ft per min after 7 rotor designs.
Hey @TheRattleSnake3145 did you try any of the principles @RichardInTN (top comment) recommend like adding a shroud so the air is being sucked in, or changing the fan to be a compressor/static pressure style? Also I like the idea of creating the vanes on the rear duct, no Idea if creating a vortex would increase flow though.
@@mavric1177 I didn't use a shroud for the blower design but when I gave up on the blower/Bernoulli design I designed a more traditional design. The shroud infront of the fan made a significant improvement to flow. My current best design beats the noctua and I believe just beats the cheater. However my actual individual results will be different to his as my test rig is different. My first try at veins behind the fan reduced the airflow.
That's the assumption a had myself also if it has streaks inside it would make more acceleration i believe , but overall great Idea , the implementation need some more work 💗
Just too steep a funnel for the end diameter, the air is being bounced back out before it can squeeze down that narrow throat. The spacer is also too large, the end of the funnel needs to already be inside the wind tunnel or boxed in. If I was to refine the design I'd drop the spacer so it's only as tall as the funnel and wall it in so it only has 2-3 cm of gap where it meets the fan. The throat of the funnel would be ~20% larger with a straight taper and no neck, maybe do some testing to see if vortex generation has a beneficial effect but I'd probably keep it smooth for simplicity's sake.
The ideal angle for a duct like that is around 11° of divergence/convergence. Just needed to be more gradual. Also having the exit closer to the wind tunnel exit would be better.
The dragons breath needs a second slightly tunnel to funnel that air and any extra air the fast moving air pulls in. The problem is that with all the extra open space now suddenly the air runs into turbulence and rapidly slows down and the pressure increases blocking airflow
It's kind of ironic that the idea was to reduce the area but then overlooked the sudden increase from a finite area to an "infinite" area at the end (which to be fair for liquids this wouldn't matter, but this is air which is compressible which always threw me off when I took fluid mechanics). I'd be more curious on a test where this design was mirrored so that it would be a Venturi tube instead of half of one, just to see if it does anything.
Perhaps the 'Dragons Breath' would have worked better with the wind tunnel if the 'flow maximiser' had a larger tube diameter and lesser gradient, and for that tube to protrude into the Wind Tunnel for say 10 cm, with a clearance of say 1 or 2 cm between the inside of the Wind Tunnel and the outside of the 'maximiser' tube. This should allow for the lower pressure to be generated at the wind tunnel opening. I guess I'm saying like an inside out Dyson fan. Sorry I don't CAD, so I can't draw it.
I think if the constricting tube was halfway placed inside the air tunnel it would help out a bit. (Plus a bit o' size increase of the end of the funnel could likely help)
@@Tgspartnership it will give it an extra chance. In the smoke test I saw a lot of air escape through the sides where the funnel connects with the fan.
I think the best part about this video is how he doesn't even realize the pun when he repeatedly said he's a "BIG FAN" of the new purple print material.
I'm not exactly an expert but I thought he had the airflow backwards! Pretty sure the idea of speeding up the air coming in would be an excellent way of making a better fan.
Bernoulli and laminar flow seem to go hand in hand, im not sure if that design managed it there but it was still a brill design and concept, honestly a good fail can really beat a poor win. I signed up, great series, looking forward to seeing more contendors 🙂
Watching today's episode just seemed to reinforce my idea that the smoke needs to be more uniform. What about a nozzle that attaches directly to the smoke machine and creates a curtain of smoke instead of a linear flow, that can then cascade down in front of the fan to provide a more even flow that demonstrates the fans' airflow with complete independence from how you squeeze the bottle, or where it pours out?
Venturi ejectors are like a class 3 lever for airflow. They convert high pressure, high speed, low mass flow into slow, high mass flow (pressure is torque and speed is MAF in this analogy). Axial fans are already slow, low pressure, high mass movers so it's like trying to start a bike in high gear.
@ Major Hardware add some some tiny holes on the funnel part of the dragons breath to help alleviate some of the drag inside like in the engines of the sr-71 blackbird
Woohoo, new Major Hardware vid! Looking forward to seeing the new fan mount in action. Always an awesome evening view when a new Fan Showdown episode drops. Thanks for the awesome content and constant improvements!
The main issue with the dragons breath is vortex that develop in the funnel, I ran into this same issue when trying to make adapters for 40mm noctua fans for my 3d printer. You can see the issue in the smoke test where air is pushed back out the fan. You can mitigate the vortex by adding stator veins in the compression chamber, but over all you will lose output not gain. (the part cooling adapters i made did not produce enough static pressure after adding those veins to cool PLA so i gave up on the idea and went back to using dual 5015 blowers) (the info i learned this from was some HVAC documentation I randomly found so yeah apparently this is a known thing in certain circles)
to cool pla with 40mm's you can't(or don't much need anyway) constrict the flow, instead an open air guide works well enough. needs insulating the heatblock tho. that being said I have one like 10watt 40mm delta I can swap if I need more cooling.. that thing blows. downside is that it sounds like a vacuum cleaner.
@@lasskinn474 Yeah i was going for a silent printer :P As for constrict vs open, depends I guess? I was aiming more for a general purpose design as I print other materials as well. Either way the experiment wasn't worth over using 2 good 5015's.
@@nobodytoyou4887 yea i just cut power to the fan when printing abs, but a constricted highly localized constricted one would be more useful with abs I guess if printing small bits, so as to not cool the entire piece but not have it mushy up small peaks.
With the "Dragons Breath", maybe a suggestion is to shorten the "legs" on the funnel shroud, so the funnel is ending inside the wind tunnel? I am not sure of the physics, but that feels like it might be more effective.
I'd like to see the anemometer placed right at the end of the cone shaped thingy. I think a big part of the problem is that not only is it constricting the flow of air going through it, but as soon as the air gets to the end of the cone, It just dissipates out in every direction because it's no longer constricted. But the air coming right out of it might have some speed
The size change of the funnel was probably too much too quickly, so the air would rather blow out the sides at the front than go through the funnel. A less severe funnel might work.
If you look at the outflow of all the fans, most of them produce a significant amount of radial outflow. If the dragon's breath also had this issue, then the radial outflow from the fan would hit the channel wall almost perpendicular, leading to more collisions with the axial outflow and thus a significant decrease in exiting flow velocity and a resulting increase in pressure, meaning it had to fight even more static pressure within the funnel. A channel converting this radial outflow to be more axial could have a better effect than just a normal isentropic nozzle
Damn, I actually sent in a design, which uses the same idea as dragonsbreath. Mine was more modestly sized, so it shouldn't be so restrictive. The design name is Bernoulli's Brachistochrone, because I wanted to hear you say it multiple times an episode. And because it uses brachistochrone, which was found by Johann Bernoulli, father of Daniel Bernoulli (from Bernoulli's principle). It's Bernoullis all the way down.
Your videos are excellent at displaying the airflow capabilities of different fans. This is why I'd like to request a video demonstrating different CASE airflows. Idk throw in a cardboard blockout to represent the general shape of a gpu and ram, for the air to swirl around. Naturally, I'd like to see the most air possible dragged across the gpu. --Then maybe compare fan positionings for airflow. 3 fans vs 2 fans, 120 vs 140. Using a vent for either intake or exhaust. Or just displaying how different cases, in general, respond to the same setup. --Like, do their more-or-less-the-same dust filters change the airflow in the brands' case? --do the cases that only have vents on the sides of the front panel, surprisingly, actually pull the same amount of air? --does the latter change how the air is flowing internally, because of the angle the air is being dragged in?
S5 should use a Delta fan as the hosting unit for all the blade/propeller designs! They are insanely string units usually used for industrial server applications. It would be cool to see an all-out, as wild as possible, competition!
a (mini) dyson fan or compressor fan with the dragon breath attached. The much more uniform airflow being compressed in the tube should allow for *significantly* higher static pressure production than a normal fan would otherwise be able to produce simply as the airflow wont be as turbulent and as such the Bernoulli's principal should become significantly more noticeable. Basically - turbulence issue aside - compressors need *a lot* (like 2-4* more than what was being produced even by that 900CFM fan) of static pressure and not as much volume, also hence why jet engine/car fans don't work well for air-cooling but work slightly better for rad-cooling (the difference used to be notable, but most commercial case fans are 'hybrid' compressor and volume type fans now. Obviously not the case for fan showdown as people are not really using the same techniques hence the rather significant differences between the usual fans and jet fans).
>Be Chad. >Walks in. >Yells with an open chest: "Cheater beater." >Fails even in being registered by the sensors in testing. >Refuses to elaborate further. >Leaves. What a Chad.
Fan designers need to keep something in mind: Virtually every fan design does not merely push air in one direction. It also pushes air outward. When that air moving outward hits a sloped wall, it is "reflected" by that wall. A straight wall will have little effect apart from some friction, because while the air might "bounce back," it's still moving in the direction of flow at roughly the same speed. If the funnel constricts, the air will "reflect" back toward the fan. If it widens, it will "reflect" in the direction of flow. Nobody, from what I've seen, has taken advantage of the latter, and many have fallen prey to the former.
I've noticed with all of the air flow modifiers like this one, the Dyson style, etc., that they would work if the motor fan produced a significant amount of power like a vacuum motor. The challenge still remains to create a low power fan to increase it's airflow as what people have been trying. I think if this dragon's breath adapter has the same outlet diameter as input, then introduce the venturi effect they are going for, it may work! Or make the outlet diameter size as if the fan hub was not present. So just blade diameter with no hub. Just a couple of ideas. Love the series!
I feel like Chad did a lot of fluid dynamics math and just completely ignored the fact that CFM through a fan is totally different than CFM through an air pump. This is a really good object lesson in what backpressure is and how it works (and in the case of an axial fan, how it makes things *not* work).
Bernoulli requires pressure potential to be exchanged for kinetic potential. Fans accelerate air flow, they do not pressurize air. This gets into a deep engineering field of fluid movers; pumps, compressors, and fans. In compressible fluids movers are separated into fans and compressors because they add energy to the air in fundamentally different ways. Fans do not compress air, they simply add energy to the air in an incompressible fashion, similar to incompressible fluid pumps. Compressors on the other hand are moving with such speeds that the fluid can accumulate pressure potential locally without necessarily accelerating (it happens both ways) meaning the fluid can come out of a compressor with the same velocity it entered but at higher pressure. With a fan you are never going to get that compressible behavior because they simple do not move fast enough. The whole point of fans is to add small amounts of energy to a lot of air. So back to this design, if fans simply increase the velocity of the air, then any area reduction will further reduce the pressure, and now we run into a conflict. Fluid will flow from high to low pressure, and if all we did was increase the velocity then we are now below atmospheric pressure. Meaning are total flow must reduce to keep fluid flowing in the correct direction. The whole goal of this exercise is to design fans that maximize the energy exchange efficiency between the motor and the air. This means low turbulence, one dimensional airflows along the axis of the fan. Just some tips if you are going to investigate along this path, constant flow areas and flow stabilizers are going to give you the optimal performance
there really should be a catagory for fan add-on prints that just get testing with a stock a12 as well as whatever the creator sends in. i'd love to see how this and the dyson perform with a standard fan. that would actually be useful for someone who doesn't want to buy all new fans but wants better airflow and has a printer and doesn't mind a unique style flair
There seems to be a lot of air coming out from the sides. Maybe using the "radiator gasket" or whatever Noctua calls the gasket that goes all around the fan to seal it to radiators could be a good idea for testing in general? Less losses!
You should try it again without that massive plastic frame structure! Let the bottleneck portion enter into the tunnel rather than let that plastic stand set it an extra foot away -letting all the ambient pressure out.
i think the cone would have a better chance if the smaller end is inside the wind tunnel, with only an inch or so of air gap to suck in air. maybe even better to add fins on the outside of the cone to align outside air coming in.
Granted, my physics days are far behind me (plus I never made it very far in fluid dynamics), but I have to agree with others. Instead of forcing the air into the pressurized tube, why not turn the fan around and create low pressure in the tube, increasing the entrance air flow? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I think the idea is sound but implemented poorly.
I dropped out of this since S2 or something, but wow, I'm amazed to see it's gone on to season 4 now. People are really keen on their fan design skills haha _Also the batwing smashing the smoke test 👌🏻👌🏻_
Another good vid! but once again I would like to propose the idea of a more powerful fan hub series, just so we can see more intricate designs like the gear fans and shrouded fans. It could run along side this series but on another day?
I would love to see a more power behind some of the intricate designs. The restricted air flow designs like the one here rely on having a pretty strong fan motor.
I'm at 5:03, haven't gotten to the tests yet. I'm guessing the 'cheater beater' will fail. You don't get any more air volume through, compression of the air by the reducing cavity increases flow rate at the smaller diameter. But if anything, your going to reduce overall air volume through the system by the resistance of that compression.
Here's an experiment I hope you'll do: The bernoulli fan's funnel-and-supports, and make the supports half the height, so the funnel sticks a bit inside the wind tunnel. Alternatively, extend the funnel with a pipe part which is half the height of the supports. Getting the smaller pipe inside the bigger pipe would increase the chances of the funneled air to pull along the outside air, because the current configuration makes high pressure air which then spreads in all directions instead of continuing straight through the wind tunnel. You could also test those changes with fans with a higher angle of attack, to get more static pressure at the price of less airflow, to deal with the loss in efficiency caused by the fan needing to compress the air so it fits into the funnel.
It'd be cool to see a video on what makes a good pc fan. Aside from low noise.. 🙂 like do you want a wide area of air? Or a narrow stream. That kind of thing 🙂
It's quite clear that there can't be any openings between the fan and the air intake, or else most of the air will just escape from the openings. The idea of a longer tunnel could maybe work better if it's completely sealed. Perhaps it could have two fans, one on each end, or something.
Would love to see a bonus episode where you take some of these fans and pair them up with other ducts people have designed. Maybe even specifically testing other fans with the cheater duct? E4 Mafia!
The cone needs a gradual longer change in size to allow air to funnel and not abort as it gets compressed since it’s an open air design. Or you can have a longer large volume of high pressure low velocity necked down to generate low pressure high velocity (which your design has) by calculating the size of tube needed to optimize your output with the fan size (Venturi effect). Just my $0.02
Just for grins... Take a couple of cuts at the maximizer... Start wit an inch, then 2, then 3. I think what the problem we're seeing is too much pressure drop in the tube in its attempt to speed up the air to drag more in with it.. By cutting off progressively more, you'll reduce pressure and get more airflow through it which should gain some numbers.
The dragon breath pipe design was let down by too big of a distance gap from the funnel to the wind tunnel. I bet it would have worked it the pipe was mated to the plane of the mounting surface. Edit: The air found least resistance by fraying out because of the higher pressure needed to go through that tunnel.
I knew the minute I saw that funnel, it’s not going to work. Too big of a restriction on a low speed air flow that pc fan can produce. Idea was excellent but the measurements are wrong.
I really do love this series! And I'm a biochem engineer who's never built a computer in my life....you just make it very interesting, the good old trial and error engineering really speaks to me
@@pirojfmifhghek566 haha, yeah that won't be difficult to print at all! Also, if the tips hit the casing they'll turn into ADP which will deliver far less energy ;)
Just brainstorming here...maybe if you invert the venturi tunnel, put in front of the fan so will suck air from a constrained space to a bigger space, like the floor of the F1 cars in 2022, it will create a "vacum"...what do you think?
For the 'flow maximizer' to work, there shouldn't be any sort of, you know, regular fan. A single stage compressor (impeller), like in model jet engines, will do :v
I think you should test the GentleTyphoon, and the GentleTyphoon GT (they are a little different)- both at the same RPM as these tests; Thus comparing them to the Noctua, and Cheater blades. It'll also give you a chance to compare other name branded fans to these fan-made fans.
It's been a while since I've had to deal with fluid dynamics, but I think a big detriment to the operation of the Dragon's breath having a direct-constriction instead of a splining curve (flat introduction and then a narrowing; also called an S-bend). The initial diameter being equal to the fan's diameter makes it more akin to a traditional nozzle and having the introduction be wider (so it can have the option to pull additional air) may improve things. Have rifling spirals down the length to better guide airflow and then press into a mesh grid to ensure turbulence will have additional impacts on performance.
these are not CFD tested nor anything near a proper fan design. basically a "hand free" design rather then a proper design. Nothing fancy. The "maximizer" is a poor design as well. I think people here don't understand that fan blades are not just a simple design and companies invest hours to make a proper design. You can not simply design one on a cad in an hour and call it a day. that's not how it works at all.
Wow this is what I thought and my request before. a silent and more airflow than a regular concept of desk fan. bernoulli fan. What IF it was on the back is it more effective to absorb air than to blow some air.
The flow multiplier needs more pressure to function, keep it mind it doesn’t just create flow for free. It’s analogous to a gear box, to get more speed you lose torque.
THESE BERNOULLI DESIGNS WILL NEVER WORK WITH A PC FAN! WHY? Because to create static overpressure, you need a fan with FIXED RPMs so that the fan itself wouldn't lose RPMs when the extra load is created from the backward pressure. These types of designs only work with systems where the fan amperage is automatically increased to keep the steady RPMs. The PC fan is not designed to increase amperage when the load is introduced, therefore the backward pressure slows the fan RPMs and happens as you see in this video.
I really think you could take a couple of parts and pieces of different people's designs and fans with different people's attachments and try to find the best possible combination of the collective mindset of fans and parts to beat the cheater you have to beat the cheater
G'day Major, So the Fan that should have been Today's winner became the loser due to the extension 🤦♂️. Just something that You said I am confused by, when compared to the Cheater the Phanteks T30 "although it is spinning a 1000rpm faster & it's Thicker" 🤔while yes it does spin 1000rpm faster, the other point at 30mm is it actually "Thicker" meaning longer from Intake to Exhaust than the Complete Cheater Build ???
Don't know if you have heard of them, but I run server fans in my desktop (limited in speed by a PWM that's inverted). The Nidec VA450DC. I had been running some HP server fans at one point (I think VA500, or TC500) but they were 128mm cases, so fitment became an issue once I moved to more standard PC case designs. The 450s consume 3.4A @ 12VDC, and the information I was able to find said they moved 268cfm?, which is actually more than the radiator fan in my car. Perhaps one of these guys might be featured?
Little fun fact for those do not know much about the whole DC (Detective Comics) lore and characters: Owlman is really a character and is the "Evil" version of Batman. Though, he is not Bruce Wayne. In fact, he is Thomas Wayne Jr. Batman's older brother that supposedly died before Bruce was born (Supposedly). And it was Thomas that had his parents killed that night in the alley and it was done by that universe's Alfred. Plus in another universe that the Heroes are villains and the Villains are heroes. Also, Superman is known as Ultraman and he snorts Kryptonite. SOOOooooo....yeah a lot of animal themed super heroes. I could go through the list for DC. I won't. Cool Bat Fan though...yet it needs more...bats. Maybe should have been Bat-shaped, lol.
combine 2 things, speakers and fans, or change the fans for speakers, once I looked at that design and never saw it again, I think it was for joke day, but the people who saw it liked it a lot including me, it would be a space saver to put speakers where the fans are combina 2 cosas, parlantes y ventiladores, o cambia los ventiladores por parlantes, una vez mire ese diseño y jamas lo volvi a ver, creo q fue para el dia de las bromas, pero a la gente q lo vio le gusto mucho incluyendome, seria un ahorro de espacio el poner parlantes donde estan los fans
That fan wasn't meant for static pressure it's meant to move air without changing the pressure to much imparting energy to air particles without condensing it BUT THIS rises the air temperature making it inefficient for typical PC applications you need to work out HOW MUCH PRESSURE can that FAN GIVE before making that outlet diameter the curve is also dictated by the difference of air pressure inside and outside of the fan A better design would employ a slight bell housing to the end of the venturi tunnel 1st is to equalize the pressure inside and out 2nd is to lower the temperature of the air and to add a duct like on ducted fans on the outside of the bell housing so it'll suck air more efficiently if done correctly all the air should flow fast cold with quite the CFM temperature, speed, volume, and pressure.
Would be interesting to see if the flow maximizer works if the outlet of the throat is going through the surface it is mounted to. I got some air fittings on some robots with air maximizers on too, and they got the outlet of the high pressure air behind the holes where it sucks the additional air in.
Let's just appreciate for a moment that the Dragon Breath solo beat the A12x25 :D I wonder if we could have some limitations (or different competition categories)... like "normal" fans that could still reasonably replace the Noctua, and "madness" fans which could not be expected to be used in an actual sensible PC.
Going by the smoke tests Cheetah... just kinda meh'd. Blowie was surprisingly speedy out the back but with twirls. Batwing was somewhere in-between. A decent all-rounder, and plenty of pressure differential/vortex coverage. DB suffered from the lack of static pressure and a lack of sealing/direction. T30 looked like it almost had the pressure (you need *a ton*), but the tunnel still of course isn't optimized. Cheetah had a good sound test tho. Really tickles the ears with the low tone.
People, for those who send their designs, here's a tip of advice.... I'm no engineer, and nowhere near the level of intelligence required to be the assistant of one, HOWEVER, it's pretty obvious that having a outer ring around the fan makes it slower, thus reducing RPM, thus reducing airflow and cooling capability. So PLEASE stop putting a big outer ring fixed to the blades, hoping that it will be good, because it ain't gonna work. Instead, use it as a external attachment like the cheater... It will work wonders directing the air into the moving fans! Also, another pro tip. The cheater is good because of the housing/external attachment, so sending a single fan (unless it has a higher RPM by default) without any external help, is not gonna work either. Sincerely, Someone who wishes to see fans beating the cheater!
what if you reversed the flow maximizer on the Dragon's Breath?? if Bernoulli's Principle says the fluid's speed increases with a REDUCTION in static pressure, then shouldn't making the small end of the tube be the intake sending air into the expanding portion create a reduction in static pressure, thereby increasing speed?? I don't know, but it'd be worth a shot!!?
I feel the Dragon's Breath was trying to use the Bernouli Effect but the inclusion of the "neck" defeated that purpose. I am just throwing random ideas without thinking/testing them which are: 1. Neck makes pressure the fan is acting against, making it output less when in "open air". 2. The neck effectively reduces the amount of air which would be "coerced" into moving. 3. Possibly neck is too narrow such that the output flow is repelling air instead of making a smooth low pressure zone (due to moving air) for the surrounding stagnant air to push in.
The problem with the constricted air duct was that there was too much constriction (it needed to be wider by about 50%... roughly half way between where it was and the edge of the hole)... also, it should have been printed so that it stuck into the tube, not so that it was 3 or so inches from the opening. Being inside the tube would have drawn in more air instead of just ramming into the cross-currents present in the gap.
That and cfm is volume not air speed. Also it looked like a lot of smoke was coming out between the fan and the duct.
Lots of static pressure. the fan was built for volume, not static pressure. And the noose was too short and didn't drop air inside the tunnel to draw it back in.
But the neck is too small and thus turbulent. Vanes might have helped.
@@glenmcgillivray4707 True, it should've been a compressor fan, to push air through the nosle
@@kristmadsen What Is Islam?
Islam is not just another religion.
It is the same message preached by Moses, Jesus and Abraham.
Islam literally means ‘submission to God’ and it teaches us to have a direct relationship with God.
It reminds us that since God created us, no one should be worshipped except God alone.
It also teaches that God is nothing like a human being or like anything that we can imagine.
The concept of God is summarized in the Quran as:
{ “Say, He is God, the One. God, the Absolute. He does not give birth, nor was He born, and there is nothing like Him.”} (Quran 112:1-4)
Becoming a Muslim is not turning your back to Jesus.
Rather it’s going back to the original teachings of Jesus and obeying him
@@kristmadsen CFM in a known volume is literally air speed.
A low restrictive venturi tube would be more effective. Since it's a fan and not compressed air aiming for a 5-10% increase in airflow may be achievable.
Yeah... I may have been too ambitious with my narrowing... :)
@@Selbitschka but it was a very clever idea. Tweak the design and submit again, I think I've seen some comebacks in the series. These low pressure "fluid grabbers" when tweaked right are very efficient. I use venturi tubes to inject ozone in my house water. They suck hard (pun intended).
@@Selbitschka Try measuring the pressure produced by the fan. That will tell you how much you can narrow it. Use a length of vinyl tubing with water in it to measure pressure.
@@bladedpenguin Thank you. I am in the process of redesigning it now.
@@RoboticParanoia Working on that now and hopefully can get a comeback. :)
My first fan design performed better than I thought. CHEETAH 👌🏻
It worked like intended, Congratz on reaching top 10 on the fan show down. Impressive.
visually i liked your design. it also looks like it would be a good static pressure fan. well done.
The problem with making a constricted air duct is that the back pressure from trying to compress the air fights the already low-torque motor. I had this issue when designing Ov3rdrive as well.
But the flow on the batwing was beautiful!
yeah. it is restricting WAY too much. it should have maximum 20% restriction or so if even and the gap to the duct is way too big too. the end of the restriction should be inside the duct or ending directly at the duct with around a cm ring of gap for the other air around to pull in. (the values are picked by my gut and are most likely wrong or inefficient, but should work better than what was in the video)
Correct, my main complaint about Noctua is that my standard dust mesh on my computer is enough to completly hamper the airflow on the noctua fans, even though they are SP fans. I was very very surprised especially because i bought the 3000rpm pro fans from Noctua, they only states they have a sp of 7.6mmH2O where my current fans has 65mmH20 difference was 15C in case temperature. On top T30 also only have a sp of 3.3 which is completly absurdly low...
Yeah, I think the funnel shouldn't decrease in diameter as aggressively as it did.
I wonder if a secondary venturi tube for the outside air would help...
No flow restriction will help it flow more air, that makes no sense.
It will increase the velocity, yes, but it will decrease again once it enters the test-pipe.
@@jort93z the idea is that it creates a low pressure area that is taking air from the gap with it into the duct like a "fanless fan". the problem is just the way it is shaped and that the idea doesn't really work on such low pressures and low airflow.
You should try more testing with the t30. It would be cool to see fans that would be more efficient with more rpm/ torque. Fans like the contra rotating one and the jet engine compressor style fan from about a year ago.
Also I’ve seen this a lot in your yt comments. But try making different fan classes. One would be a standard class that it basically all the fans that fit in the frame of the a12x25 and ones that have external components outside the frame of the a12x25. The external class would be interesting with fans that don’t work out like the dragons breath.
The rare time youtube algorithm shows me a video that is uploaded 13 seconds ago.
Same
@@justina3506 as well
For me it's 13 minutes ago
Well, We do show up to fan show down so RUclips thinks we are real fanatic fans, when we are just fan enthusiasts.
also, we watch out for Copper and his friend.
According to RUclips, the video is 34 minutes ago but your comment is 44
I think you just time traveled or something
The Dragon’s Breathe fan was designed for flow when it needed to be designed for static pressure and allow the flow to come from Bernoulli’s effect. It might perform a lot better if the restriction had a wider outlet hole to reduce the amount of pressure the fan is trying to fight against.
Or, you know, not have a restriction at all, and attach the fan directly.
Makes no sense to attach any restriction, any restriction will make the fan more less air, and for this test you want it to move as much air as possible.
@@jort93z That's ... not how bernoulli's effect work, Think of it as tunnelling air by creating difference in pressure, as the comments said if the tunnel was wider, it would have performed significantly better.
@@amineabdz Tunneling the air is not the issue, you can get that to work, the issue is moving more air than you started with. They want to get more airflow with this device, that part won't work.
Any flow restriction, doesn't matter if it is 10% or 90%, will decrease the amount of airflow. If you want this to somehow get more airflow, you need the area over which the air is spread to be considerably larger than the fan.
The measurement tunnel would need to be wider, and in that case the measurement isn't comparable anymore.
just attaching it directly will be more effective, no matter how they redesign their "Air maximizer".
@@jort93z you still don't really understand this, volume stream is velocity*area, if he made that restrictive tubes diameter about 10-15mm smaller than the air tunnel and made it go into that tunnel, he would benefit from that restriction. Air speed would increase by couple % and the pressure difference would suck more air through that 5-7.5mm gap between restrictor and tunnel.
Dude said he studies mechanical engineering, I guess he should go back to drawing board and pay more attention at college
@@mikoajkosma4010 Well, but you are forgetting that a restriction will make the fan work against a higher pressure, making it work less effectively. If you could just make a restriction and increase airflow, surely you'd just decrease it by 99% and get fat gains, but that's not how it works. The fan will need to work harder and move less air.
Well, when experimenting, some experiments go well, others fail.
Hey man thanks so much for showing off my fan (Blowsie, Blowie, whatever)! I can't believe it did almost as well as the stock design. I designed it to suck air into the center so I was very happy when the 2nd smoke shot showed exactly that. The low RPM is very interesting, I honestly have no idea how thick the blades are so I can probably lose a lot of weight and get some better performance if I load the design into some beefier 3d modeling software. Anyway thanks again!
sorry i cant read, i called it both blowie and blowsie
Nice work! 😃👍
@@MajorHardware haha it's all good, I put very little thought into the name.
Looks like you might need to make a thin foam gasket or use some sealant. Smoke test reveals where the air shouldn't be flowing quite clearly.
I've been 3d printing gaskets :) Works good once you get the hang of it. So far I've put them on >> rainbird anti siphon valves ; Water hoses ; Lots of water pumps ; Sinks/faucets . I got tired of buying them. They break so often it seems like a conspiracy ! For high pressure stuff, I will include a space to fill with aquarium silicone or E600. PETG
I think it has more to do with the static pressure and that's why it goes out the side, if the pressure was lower the fan would pass the air right by the air gap and out the back like it should. But since the end of the tube is so small the air isn't compressing because the fan is weak, so it just increases pressure and flows out the sides.
Yep there is a lot of leakage....
in the rc airplane world when we use edf motors, there's something called FSA fan swept area(physical area swept by the blades minus the center hub area). how you neck down the tube behind the edf affects your top speed\ max thrust, a thrust tube that is 100% of the fsa will have higher static thrust(torque) and one that is necked down to 90%fsa will have higher top speed(horse power) after a certain point when constraining the thrust tube it becomes inefficient, and unable to push past the squeeze. the max we typically use is 80%. that Bernoulli tube looks like its 50% at best. id put money that the multiplier would work better if Different Fsa diameters were tried.
if the fan is 120mm and the hub is about 40mm then that means 100% fsa would be an 80mm exhaust tube, and 80% of that 64mm
so the workable range from 110% fsa down to 80% would be about 90mm to 65mm.
that JUST the tube being efficient at its job at speeding up the air. this doesnt take into account the distance and area available for the that sped up air to "drag" more air along with it(distance from end of the tube to the beginning of the next "orifice"
id start with an 80mm tube and see what it does, then id go right down to 65mm and see if its any better. it may still not work, the motor may not have enough ooompf to speed the air up significantly. only then maybe start adjusting the distance from the end of the thrust tube.
Your FSA calculation is wrong, you can't do 120-40=80 , you need to calculate the areas before subtracting, the 100%FSA exhaust tube is 113.1mm, 80%fsa is 90.5mm
@@Henning_S.
Thanks for the corrections
Huh this is something i did not understand correctly even though ive built thrust tubes in the past.
I have some edfs lying around should build an aircraft
You should really look up the video of the cheater on here. It has smoothed out air flow behind it because it has like rear cone pod behind the motor. The cheetah fan on that cheater frame would have the best chance of beating it.
I bought Anemometer and made a test rig, I got Bernoulli's principal to work but I used a blower style fan design. The best I got was 660ft per min after 7 rotor designs.
Hey @TheRattleSnake3145 did you try any of the principles @RichardInTN (top comment) recommend like adding a shroud so the air is being sucked in, or changing the fan to be a compressor/static pressure style? Also I like the idea of creating the vanes on the rear duct, no Idea if creating a vortex would increase flow though.
@@mavric1177 I didn't use a shroud for the blower design but when I gave up on the blower/Bernoulli design I designed a more traditional design. The shroud infront of the fan made a significant improvement to flow. My current best design beats the noctua and I believe just beats the cheater. However my actual individual results will be different to his as my test rig is different. My first try at veins behind the fan reduced the airflow.
@@mavric1177 the Bernoulli design just wasn't designed correctly to work.
Looks like the dragons breath needs a seal. Huge loss around the Crack between the fan and the funnel. He'll even some tape.
That's the assumption a had myself also if it has streaks inside it would make more acceleration i believe , but overall great Idea , the implementation need some more work 💗
Just too steep a funnel for the end diameter, the air is being bounced back out before it can squeeze down that narrow throat. The spacer is also too large, the end of the funnel needs to already be inside the wind tunnel or boxed in.
If I was to refine the design I'd drop the spacer so it's only as tall as the funnel and wall it in so it only has 2-3 cm of gap where it meets the fan. The throat of the funnel would be ~20% larger with a straight taper and no neck, maybe do some testing to see if vortex generation has a beneficial effect but I'd probably keep it smooth for simplicity's sake.
I was thinking a rubber band would seal it fine, easier than tape.
The ideal angle for a duct like that is around 11° of divergence/convergence.
Just needed to be more gradual.
Also having the exit closer to the wind tunnel exit would be better.
The dragons breath needs a second slightly tunnel to funnel that air and any extra air the fast moving air pulls in. The problem is that with all the extra open space now suddenly the air runs into turbulence and rapidly slows down and the pressure increases blocking airflow
It's kind of ironic that the idea was to reduce the area but then overlooked the sudden increase from a finite area to an "infinite" area at the end (which to be fair for liquids this wouldn't matter, but this is air which is compressible which always threw me off when I took fluid mechanics). I'd be more curious on a test where this design was mirrored so that it would be a Venturi tube instead of half of one, just to see if it does anything.
he still hasn't printed my fan blade called AIR PUNCHER FIXED it's been a year 😒
I wonder if the Bernoulli cone had a fan that reached partially into it to force the air into it would work better.
Perhaps the 'Dragons Breath' would have worked better with the wind tunnel if the 'flow maximiser' had a larger tube diameter and lesser gradient, and for that tube to protrude into the Wind Tunnel for say 10 cm, with a clearance of say 1 or 2 cm between the inside of the Wind Tunnel and the outside of the 'maximiser' tube.
This should allow for the lower pressure to be generated at the wind tunnel opening. I guess I'm saying like an inside out Dyson fan.
Sorry I don't CAD, so I can't draw it.
I think if the constricting tube was halfway placed inside the air tunnel it would help out a bit. (Plus a bit o' size increase of the end of the funnel could likely help)
For the dragon’s breath to have a chance, make a good seal between the funnel and the fan
Will that do it?
@@Tgspartnership it will give it an extra chance. In the smoke test I saw a lot of air escape through the sides where the funnel connects with the fan.
I think the best part about this video is how he doesn't even realize the pun when he repeatedly said he's a "BIG FAN" of the new purple print material.
I would try to put the fan on the opposite end of the flow maximizer and redo the smoke test. That would be more inline with the Bernoulli Principle.
yea I don't see how this would work, it just creates a high pressure at the end of the nozzle and it goes everywhere from there
I'm not exactly an expert but I thought he had the airflow backwards! Pretty sure the idea of speeding up the air coming in would be an excellent way of making a better fan.
Bernoulli and laminar flow seem to go hand in hand, im not sure if that design managed it there but it was still a brill design and concept, honestly a good fail can really beat a poor win. I signed up, great series, looking forward to seeing more contendors 🙂
Watching today's episode just seemed to reinforce my idea that the smoke needs to be more uniform.
What about a nozzle that attaches directly to the smoke machine and creates a curtain of smoke instead of a linear flow, that can then cascade down in front of the fan to provide a more even flow that demonstrates the fans' airflow with complete independence from how you squeeze the bottle, or where it pours out?
Fans just need attaching to the other side of the plexi glass.
Venturi ejectors are like a class 3 lever for airflow. They convert high pressure, high speed, low mass flow into slow, high mass flow (pressure is torque and speed is MAF in this analogy). Axial fans are already slow, low pressure, high mass movers so it's like trying to start a bike in high gear.
@ Major Hardware add some some tiny holes on the funnel part of the dragons breath to help alleviate some of the drag inside like in the engines of the sr-71 blackbird
That "classic" spinning Batwing transition had me cheer out loud! Stellar editing
It's so veiny!
Woohoo, new Major Hardware vid!
Looking forward to seeing the new fan mount in action. Always an awesome evening view when a new Fan Showdown episode drops.
Thanks for the awesome content and constant improvements!
Idea for the next season, use the T30 as base model, this should allow much more wild and big design as it have so much more torque to play with.
The main issue with the dragons breath is vortex that develop in the funnel, I ran into this same issue when trying to make adapters for 40mm noctua fans for my 3d printer. You can see the issue in the smoke test where air is pushed back out the fan.
You can mitigate the vortex by adding stator veins in the compression chamber, but over all you will lose output not gain. (the part cooling adapters i made did not produce enough static pressure after adding those veins to cool PLA so i gave up on the idea and went back to using dual 5015 blowers)
(the info i learned this from was some HVAC documentation I randomly found so yeah apparently this is a known thing in certain circles)
to cool pla with 40mm's you can't(or don't much need anyway) constrict the flow, instead an open air guide works well enough. needs insulating the heatblock tho.
that being said I have one like 10watt 40mm delta I can swap if I need more cooling.. that thing blows. downside is that it sounds like a vacuum cleaner.
@@lasskinn474 Yeah i was going for a silent printer :P
As for constrict vs open, depends I guess? I was aiming more for a general purpose design as I print other materials as well. Either way the experiment wasn't worth over using 2 good 5015's.
@@nobodytoyou4887 yea i just cut power to the fan when printing abs, but a constricted highly localized constricted one would be more useful with abs I guess if printing small bits, so as to not cool the entire piece but not have it mushy up small peaks.
7:12 Look like the fan is going from low back pressure to high back pressure. Opposite of what you want.
With the "Dragons Breath", maybe a suggestion is to shorten the "legs" on the funnel shroud, so the funnel is ending inside the wind tunnel? I am not sure of the physics, but that feels like it might be more effective.
The problem seems to be the amount of pressure it has to overcome to push the air through the funnel, not so much the funnel end
Should try a rifled tunnel and a gasket between fan and tunnel to prevent side leaks :D
I'd like to see the anemometer placed right at the end of the cone shaped thingy. I think a big part of the problem is that not only is it constricting the flow of air going through it, but as soon as the air gets to the end of the cone, It just dissipates out in every direction because it's no longer constricted. But the air coming right out of it might have some speed
The size change of the funnel was probably too much too quickly, so the air would rather blow out the sides at the front than go through the funnel.
A less severe funnel might work.
If you look at the outflow of all the fans, most of them produce a significant amount of radial outflow. If the dragon's breath also had this issue, then the radial outflow from the fan would hit the channel wall almost perpendicular, leading to more collisions with the axial outflow and thus a significant decrease in exiting flow velocity and a resulting increase in pressure, meaning it had to fight even more static pressure within the funnel.
A channel converting this radial outflow to be more axial could have a better effect than just a normal isentropic nozzle
Damn, I actually sent in a design, which uses the same idea as dragonsbreath. Mine was more modestly sized, so it shouldn't be so restrictive.
The design name is Bernoulli's Brachistochrone, because I wanted to hear you say it multiple times an episode. And because it uses brachistochrone, which was found by Johann Bernoulli, father of Daniel Bernoulli (from Bernoulli's principle). It's Bernoullis all the way down.
Your videos are excellent at displaying the airflow capabilities of different fans.
This is why I'd like to request a video demonstrating different CASE airflows.
Idk throw in a cardboard blockout to represent the general shape of a gpu and ram, for the air to swirl around. Naturally, I'd like to see the most air possible dragged across the gpu.
--Then maybe compare fan positionings for airflow. 3 fans vs 2 fans, 120 vs 140. Using a vent for either intake or exhaust. Or just displaying how different cases, in general, respond to the same setup.
--Like, do their more-or-less-the-same dust filters change the airflow in the brands' case?
--do the cases that only have vents on the sides of the front panel, surprisingly, actually pull the same amount of air?
--does the latter change how the air is flowing internally, because of the angle the air is being dragged in?
do the A12 and F12 share hub dimensions? it would be interesting to see the top 5 on a more powerful hub.
S5 should use a Delta fan as the hosting unit for all the blade/propeller designs! They are insanely string units usually used for industrial server applications.
It would be cool to see an all-out, as wild as possible, competition!
That color purple is almost the same color as that “Ooze” from a great action movie so long ago.
^If you didn’t get it^
(Power rangers the movie)
a (mini) dyson fan or compressor fan with the dragon breath attached.
The much more uniform airflow being compressed in the tube should allow for *significantly* higher static pressure production than a normal fan would otherwise be able to produce simply as the airflow wont be as turbulent and as such the Bernoulli's principal should become significantly more noticeable.
Basically - turbulence issue aside - compressors need *a lot* (like 2-4* more than what was being produced even by that 900CFM fan) of static pressure and not as much volume, also hence why jet engine/car fans don't work well for air-cooling but work slightly better for rad-cooling (the difference used to be notable, but most commercial case fans are 'hybrid' compressor and volume type fans now. Obviously not the case for fan showdown as people are not really using the same techniques hence the rather significant differences between the usual fans and jet fans).
>Be Chad.
>Walks in.
>Yells with an open chest: "Cheater beater."
>Fails even in being registered by the sensors in testing.
>Refuses to elaborate further.
>Leaves.
What a Chad.
Fan designers need to keep something in mind: Virtually every fan design does not merely push air in one direction. It also pushes air outward.
When that air moving outward hits a sloped wall, it is "reflected" by that wall. A straight wall will have little effect apart from some friction, because while the air might "bounce back," it's still moving in the direction of flow at roughly the same speed.
If the funnel constricts, the air will "reflect" back toward the fan. If it widens, it will "reflect" in the direction of flow.
Nobody, from what I've seen, has taken advantage of the latter, and many have fallen prey to the former.
I've noticed with all of the air flow modifiers like this one, the Dyson style, etc., that they would work if the motor fan produced a significant amount of power like a vacuum motor. The challenge still remains to create a low power fan to increase it's airflow as what people have been trying. I think if this dragon's breath adapter has the same outlet diameter as input, then introduce the venturi effect they are going for, it may work! Or make the outlet diameter size as if the fan hub was not present. So just blade diameter with no hub. Just a couple of ideas. Love the series!
I feel like Chad did a lot of fluid dynamics math and just completely ignored the fact that CFM through a fan is totally different than CFM through an air pump. This is a really good object lesson in what backpressure is and how it works (and in the case of an axial fan, how it makes things *not* work).
Bernoulli requires pressure potential to be exchanged for kinetic potential. Fans accelerate air flow, they do not pressurize air. This gets into a deep engineering field of fluid movers; pumps, compressors, and fans. In compressible fluids movers are separated into fans and compressors because they add energy to the air in fundamentally different ways. Fans do not compress air, they simply add energy to the air in an incompressible fashion, similar to incompressible fluid pumps. Compressors on the other hand are moving with such speeds that the fluid can accumulate pressure potential locally without necessarily accelerating (it happens both ways) meaning the fluid can come out of a compressor with the same velocity it entered but at higher pressure. With a fan you are never going to get that compressible behavior because they simple do not move fast enough. The whole point of fans is to add small amounts of energy to a lot of air. So back to this design, if fans simply increase the velocity of the air, then any area reduction will further reduce the pressure, and now we run into a conflict. Fluid will flow from high to low pressure, and if all we did was increase the velocity then we are now below atmospheric pressure. Meaning are total flow must reduce to keep fluid flowing in the correct direction. The whole goal of this exercise is to design fans that maximize the energy exchange efficiency between the motor and the air. This means low turbulence, one dimensional airflows along the axis of the fan. Just some tips if you are going to investigate along this path, constant flow areas and flow stabilizers are going to give you the optimal performance
Smh, misleading thumbnail. Doesn't even MENTION Bernoulli's back.
there really should be a catagory for fan add-on prints that just get testing with a stock a12 as well as whatever the creator sends in. i'd love to see how this and the dyson perform with a standard fan. that would actually be useful for someone who doesn't want to buy all new fans but wants better airflow and has a printer and doesn't mind a unique style flair
There seems to be a lot of air coming out from the sides. Maybe using the "radiator gasket" or whatever Noctua calls the gasket that goes all around the fan to seal it to radiators could be a good idea for testing in general? Less losses!
You should try it again without that massive plastic frame structure!
Let the bottleneck portion enter into the tunnel rather than let that plastic stand set it an extra foot away -letting all the ambient pressure out.
i think the cone would have a better chance if the smaller end is inside the wind tunnel, with only an inch or so of air gap to suck in air. maybe even better to add fins on the outside of the cone to align outside air coming in.
Granted, my physics days are far behind me (plus I never made it very far in fluid dynamics), but I have to agree with others. Instead of forcing the air into the pressurized tube, why not turn the fan around and create low pressure in the tube, increasing the entrance air flow? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I think the idea is sound but implemented poorly.
I agree completely! Or add another expansion on the other side of the restriction so it looks kind of like a dumbbell and see how that performs.
I think that a resin 3D printer would be much better for fans. Less air drag from imperfections
What a missed opportunity to print the first one rainbow-colored and call it David Blowie.
Love the air pattern out from the bat fan! Looks really straight and great!
I dropped out of this since S2 or something, but wow, I'm amazed to see it's gone on to season 4 now. People are really keen on their fan design skills haha
_Also the batwing smashing the smoke test 👌🏻👌🏻_
Has anyone printed slots into their fan blades? I think slats would be too complex.
Another good vid! but once again I would like to propose the idea of a more powerful fan hub series, just so we can see more intricate designs like the gear fans and shrouded fans. It could run along side this series but on another day?
I would love to see a more power behind some of the intricate designs. The restricted air flow designs like the one here rely on having a pretty strong fan motor.
y is my fan dose not picked and print it.
please check my email.
I sent three blade fan.
Oh noo the skillshare cancer has infected this channel now too :(
The algorithm failed me… didn’t see the upload till an hour past it’s release
try installing the frame-funnel in front of the fan.
I'm at 5:03, haven't gotten to the tests yet. I'm guessing the 'cheater beater' will fail. You don't get any more air volume through, compression of the air by the reducing cavity increases flow rate at the smaller diameter. But if anything, your going to reduce overall air volume through the system by the resistance of that compression.
Here's an experiment I hope you'll do: The bernoulli fan's funnel-and-supports, and make the supports half the height, so the funnel sticks a bit inside the wind tunnel. Alternatively, extend the funnel with a pipe part which is half the height of the supports. Getting the smaller pipe inside the bigger pipe would increase the chances of the funneled air to pull along the outside air, because the current configuration makes high pressure air which then spreads in all directions instead of continuing straight through the wind tunnel. You could also test those changes with fans with a higher angle of attack, to get more static pressure at the price of less airflow, to deal with the loss in efficiency caused by the fan needing to compress the air so it fits into the funnel.
It's almost as if conservation of energy is actually real.
It'd be cool to see a video on what makes a good pc fan. Aside from low noise.. 🙂 like do you want a wide area of air? Or a narrow stream. That kind of thing 🙂
It's quite clear that there can't be any openings between the fan and the air intake, or else most of the air will just escape from the openings. The idea of a longer tunnel could maybe work better if it's completely sealed. Perhaps it could have two fans, one on each end, or something.
You had me screaming to try it the opposite way...
Would love to see a bonus episode where you take some of these fans and pair them up with other ducts people have designed. Maybe even specifically testing other fans with the cheater duct?
E4 Mafia!
The cone needs a gradual longer change in size to allow air to funnel and not abort as it gets compressed since it’s an open air design. Or you can have a longer large volume of high pressure low velocity necked down to generate low pressure high velocity (which your design has) by calculating the size of tube needed to optimize your output with the fan size (Venturi effect). Just my $0.02
Just for grins... Take a couple of cuts at the maximizer... Start wit an inch, then 2, then 3.
I think what the problem we're seeing is too much pressure drop in the tube in its attempt to speed up the air to drag more in with it.. By cutting off progressively more, you'll reduce pressure and get more airflow through it which should gain some numbers.
10:34 would be very helpful if you could also measure noise of T30 🙏🤞
since you did for the other reference, Noctua one. thanks!
The very simple look of the dragon breath blades only had a impressive result!
First!
nobody cares
I do
@@MajorHardware wholesome
@@damianclum2066 it’s not a good look for you.
@@MajorHardware I don't
The dragon breath pipe design was let down by too big of a distance gap from the funnel to the wind tunnel. I bet it would have worked it the pipe was mated to the plane of the mounting surface.
Edit: The air found least resistance by fraying out because of the higher pressure needed to go through that tunnel.
I knew the minute I saw that funnel, it’s not going to work. Too big of a restriction on a low speed air flow that pc fan can produce. Idea was excellent but the measurements are wrong.
I really do love this series! And I'm a biochem engineer who's never built a computer in my life....you just make it very interesting, the good old trial and error engineering really speaks to me
Biochem, eh? I think you know what needs to be done...
_Design a fan that looks like adenosine triphosphate._
@@pirojfmifhghek566 haha, yeah that won't be difficult to print at all! Also, if the tips hit the casing they'll turn into ADP which will deliver far less energy ;)
Just brainstorming here...maybe if you invert the venturi tunnel, put in front of the fan so will suck air from a constrained space to a bigger space, like the floor of the F1 cars in 2022, it will create a "vacum"...what do you think?
For the 'flow maximizer' to work, there shouldn't be any sort of, you know, regular fan. A single stage compressor (impeller), like in model jet engines, will do :v
This continues to be one of the most entertaining interactive ongoing competitions on RUclips. Than you so much for keeping this going.
I think you should test the GentleTyphoon, and the GentleTyphoon GT (they are a little different)- both at the same RPM as these tests; Thus comparing them to the Noctua, and Cheater blades. It'll also give you a chance to compare other name branded fans to these fan-made fans.
It's been a while since I've had to deal with fluid dynamics, but I think a big detriment to the operation of the Dragon's breath having a direct-constriction instead of a splining curve (flat introduction and then a narrowing; also called an S-bend). The initial diameter being equal to the fan's diameter makes it more akin to a traditional nozzle and having the introduction be wider (so it can have the option to pull additional air) may improve things. Have rifling spirals down the length to better guide airflow and then press into a mesh grid to ensure turbulence will have additional impacts on performance.
I would love to see static pressure testing somehow.
Higher static pressure fan even if its low CFM might of made this work better.
the cheater beater is backwards, needs to be sucking air through it, not pushing like this | [ = fan | <
these are not CFD tested nor anything near a proper fan design. basically a "hand free" design rather then a proper design. Nothing fancy.
The "maximizer" is a poor design as well.
I think people here don't understand that fan blades are not just a simple design and companies invest hours to make a proper design. You can not simply design one on a cad in an hour and call it a day. that's not how it works at all.
Wow this is what I thought and my request before. a silent and more airflow than a regular concept of desk fan. bernoulli fan. What IF it was on the back is it more effective to absorb air than to blow some air.
The flow multiplier needs more pressure to function, keep it mind it doesn’t just create flow for free. It’s analogous to a gear box, to get more speed you lose torque.
THESE BERNOULLI DESIGNS WILL NEVER WORK WITH A PC FAN! WHY?
Because to create static overpressure, you need a fan with FIXED RPMs so that the fan itself wouldn't lose RPMs when the extra load is created from the backward pressure.
These types of designs only work with systems where the fan amperage is automatically increased to keep the steady RPMs.
The PC fan is not designed to increase amperage when the load is introduced, therefore the backward pressure slows the fan RPMs and happens as you see in this video.
I really think you could take a couple of parts and pieces of different people's designs and fans with different people's attachments and try to find the best possible combination of the collective mindset of fans and parts to beat the cheater you have to beat the cheater
G'day Major,
So the Fan that should have been Today's winner became the loser due to the extension 🤦♂️.
Just something that You said I am confused by, when compared to the Cheater the Phanteks T30 "although it is spinning a 1000rpm faster & it's Thicker"
🤔while yes it does spin 1000rpm faster, the other point at 30mm is it actually "Thicker" meaning longer from Intake to Exhaust than the Complete Cheater Build ???
Don't know if you have heard of them, but I run server fans in my desktop (limited in speed by a PWM that's inverted). The Nidec VA450DC. I had been running some HP server fans at one point (I think VA500, or TC500) but they were 128mm cases, so fitment became an issue once I moved to more standard PC case designs. The 450s consume 3.4A @ 12VDC, and the information I was able to find said they moved 268cfm?, which is actually more than the radiator fan in my car. Perhaps one of these guys might be featured?
Little fun fact for those do not know much about the whole DC (Detective Comics) lore and characters: Owlman is really a character and is the "Evil" version of Batman. Though, he is not Bruce Wayne. In fact, he is Thomas Wayne Jr. Batman's older brother that supposedly died before Bruce was born (Supposedly). And it was Thomas that had his parents killed that night in the alley and it was done by that universe's Alfred. Plus in another universe that the Heroes are villains and the Villains are heroes. Also, Superman is known as Ultraman and he snorts Kryptonite.
SOOOooooo....yeah a lot of animal themed super heroes. I could go through the list for DC. I won't. Cool Bat Fan though...yet it needs more...bats. Maybe should have been Bat-shaped, lol.
combine 2 things, speakers and fans, or change the fans for speakers, once I looked at that design and never saw it again, I think it was for joke day, but the people who saw it liked it a lot including me, it would be a space saver to put speakers where the fans are
combina 2 cosas, parlantes y ventiladores, o cambia los ventiladores por parlantes, una vez mire ese diseño y jamas lo volvi a ver, creo q fue para el dia de las bromas, pero a la gente q lo vio le gusto mucho incluyendome, seria un ahorro de espacio el poner parlantes donde estan los fans
That fan wasn't meant for static pressure
it's meant to move air without changing the pressure to much
imparting energy to air particles without condensing it BUT THIS rises the air temperature making it inefficient for typical PC applications
you need to work out HOW MUCH PRESSURE can that FAN GIVE before making that outlet diameter
the curve is also dictated by the difference of air pressure inside and outside of the fan
A better design would employ a slight bell housing to the end of the venturi tunnel
1st is to equalize the pressure inside and out
2nd is to lower the temperature of the air
and to add a duct like on ducted fans on the outside of the bell housing so it'll suck air more efficiently
if done correctly all the air should flow fast cold with quite the CFM
temperature, speed, volume, and pressure.
Would be interesting to see if the flow maximizer works if the outlet of the throat is going through the surface it is mounted to. I got some air fittings on some robots with air maximizers on too, and they got the outlet of the high pressure air behind the holes where it sucks the additional air in.
Let's just appreciate for a moment that the Dragon Breath solo beat the A12x25 :D
I wonder if we could have some limitations (or different competition categories)... like "normal" fans that could still reasonably replace the Noctua, and "madness" fans which could not be expected to be used in an actual sensible PC.
Going by the smoke tests Cheetah... just kinda meh'd. Blowie was surprisingly speedy out the back but with twirls. Batwing was somewhere in-between. A decent all-rounder, and plenty of pressure differential/vortex coverage. DB suffered from the lack of static pressure and a lack of sealing/direction. T30 looked like it almost had the pressure (you need *a ton*), but the tunnel still of course isn't optimized. Cheetah had a good sound test tho. Really tickles the ears with the low tone.
People, for those who send their designs, here's a tip of advice.... I'm no engineer, and nowhere near the level of intelligence required to be the assistant of one, HOWEVER, it's pretty obvious that having a outer ring around the fan makes it slower, thus reducing RPM, thus reducing airflow and cooling capability. So PLEASE stop putting a big outer ring fixed to the blades, hoping that it will be good, because it ain't gonna work. Instead, use it as a external attachment like the cheater... It will work wonders directing the air into the moving fans!
Also, another pro tip. The cheater is good because of the housing/external attachment, so sending a single fan (unless it has a higher RPM by default) without any external help, is not gonna work either.
Sincerely,
Someone who wishes to see fans beating the cheater!
what if you reversed the flow maximizer on the Dragon's Breath?? if Bernoulli's Principle says the fluid's speed increases with a REDUCTION in static pressure, then shouldn't making the small end of the tube be the intake sending air into the expanding portion create a reduction in static pressure, thereby increasing speed?? I don't know, but it'd be worth a shot!!?
I feel the Dragon's Breath was trying to use the Bernouli Effect but the inclusion of the "neck" defeated that purpose. I am just throwing random ideas without thinking/testing them which are:
1. Neck makes pressure the fan is acting against, making it output less when in "open air".
2. The neck effectively reduces the amount of air which would be "coerced" into moving.
3. Possibly neck is too narrow such that the output flow is repelling air instead of making a smooth low pressure zone (due to moving air) for the surrounding stagnant air to push in.