What's an architecture degree worth? Actual numbers
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- Опубликовано: 23 авг 2024
- Here are the best (and worst) investments in architecture schools in the US. For links to the study, data, + all the slides see:
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See how your school measures up here: thirtybyforty.com/whats-an-architecture-degree-worth
I wish information like this was available at school, you know, the first classes for architecture major
These numbers are actually pretty sad.
Lamooo. I’m sitting here crying as I work on my architecture classes
It’s great living in Scotland where we get our tuition paid for by our government. I’m getting my Glasgow School of Art degree for nothing at all (except purchasing supplies etc).
My son has been looking at the GSoA...what an incredible place to learn...enjoy!
Actually, taxpayers pay for your tuition.
@@deanwhite5292 of course they bloody do. It's not extraordinary to pay for all the services you need.
@@finnersmcspeed5646 the question then is paying for tuition good value for tax payers. Should you subsidise higher education, which is on average more likely to benefit the more wealthy citizens; or can the money be better spent elsewhere?
@@deanwhite5292 actually, fun fact: this comment is the best way to find the dummest person in any room!!
For al Americans here who are still choosing a school: look into international options
I've been researching this for my son who is applying to schools now. It's actually quite a bit more expensive as international students often pay full rack rate. At least in the US we can negotiate discounts on sticker price and avoid the immigration complications/fees. Also: COVID...
That’s what I’m doing. I simply can’t afford school here. Either I stay here with no bachelors or look elsewhere. I’m currently looking at a program in Portugal that’s less than $900 per year. Thinking of going that route!
@@30by40 That depends on the school. You can study architecture for free or pretty cheaply in Turkey, Spain, Portugal, Austria, Poland, etc.
@@Daisika I totally understand (and Portugal would be incredible) just realize that if you want to practice as a licensed professional in the US eventually, a foreign degree requires an immense amount of hoop-jumping.
@@30by40 I’d have to disagree on this. Some of the top schools in the world are international. Amman University, Jordan, and Singapore university. Hong Kong also has some of the best schools. All for a mere fraction of the cost in the U.S. schooling in America is a pure business to its founding fathers. Great videos btw
It hurts to see those negative ROI's. Makes me wonder how that's even possible
Some schools have an abysmal graduation rate which skews things...it's all median data so, of course, YMMV...
@@30by40 Ah, ok. That makes sense.
Those final years of college are the most anxiety provoking for sure. "I'm $50k in debt with no degree.. I really hope I can pass these final classes..".
As you point out, it's tragic for those who don't finish.
Wow! In France, my degree cost me like... 2000€ for 6 years!
T’as de la chance mec 😅 j’ai 7,500k de dettes après 2 ans
In Italy, if you're poor enough and enter a public university, you can actually earn some money while you do it. They gave me almost 15k euros for the 5 years. Scholarships and social security is amazing. Money well spent on living, supplies and the rare occasional party. I've graduated with 200€ in my bank account but at least have a shiny diploma to silence the relatives.
@@hex8387 yeah bro, but compare job opportunities. The economy is not the same..... Those USA debt are total worth it if you are really determined.
@@rbasket8 Job opportunities are everywhere. Just like our USA bros we can change states and/or look elsewhere on the continent. But just like opportunities, chance of failure is also everywhere. Be it a bad year, bad economy or other factors. I would rather take my chances here being debt-free and with free healthcare.
I agree with you on the economy difference and scale tho'...
Ohh, and my beloved metric system. God I love it.
@@hex8387 Job opportunities aren't everywhere and aren't the same. Is Italia good? Because Spain arch market is a total disaster.
The metric system is god, thats totally right.
PS: Healthcare isn't free. And you are also in a super debt to the BCE. Don't fall for state and politics tricks.
I’m looking at studying abroad and there’s an integrated masters degree in architecture located in Portugal that’s less than $900 a year. So for a bachelors and masters it’s less than $5,000 total. Not to mention the cost of living is suuuper cheap there.
I have no idea at what university you are looking for, but those prices are for local students. The prices for International Students in my university for the Faculty of Architecture is 4250 euros per year. So, times five, it gives a total of a little over 21000 euros. It should be similar for other faculties in Portugal.
Interesting idea, and interesting analysis. Thank you for this. Unfortunately, this is comparing apples to oranges. Some degrees are professional degrees that allow to become a licensed architect, and some are not. Many paths to licensure included getting a Master degree. The schools that only have a Bachelors degree do better in this comparison while the ones that have a Masters degree do worse. Schools like RISD do better because they only had a Bachelor's degree, while MIT has a Masters. Plus there are a lot of mitigating factors like some schools encourage corporate architecture, while others promote private practice which is usually lower ROI. But this brings up a bigger question. Why hasn't AIA and NCARB done this analysis and presented it as you have? Maybe if people knew how little architects made it would be bad for the profession?
I know the slide passed quickly in the beginning (lot to pack into 59 seconds!), but this is for Bachelor's degrees only. More details on the study (and links to the methodology) in my post: thirtybyforty.com/whats-an-architecture-degree-worth
It's always difficult comparing ROI given the range of factors involved and differences in degree programs (years to graduate, public subsidies, EFC, etc.) Whatever the flaws, I believe the rigor of this study gets us closer to the truth than anything I've ever seen. And, when you're potentially spending 6 figures+ for an education having just a little more information is immensely helpful (I think). I've never found the AIA or NCARB to be particularly helpful or supportive of the majority of the profession, so, it's not a place I personally look to for relevant information or leadership.
@@30by40 I can't express how unburdening it is for me to see another Architect mention how they feel the AIA and NCARB aren't particularly supportive of the profession in this manner.
Preview looks like announcement of losing social credit
I went to Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, Cal Poly Pomona and UCLA. Doing pretty good and no debt.
When you say no Debt did you use resources like scholarships and fafsa or are you paying out of pocket! I'm thinking of transferring out of community college and don't know where to go for interior architecture.
This is why you should be careful when choosing architecture. Understanding that at the end of the day architecture IS design and there are other higher paying design fields that value an architecture background. And for people that are in architecture, to not put up with being overworked or toxic work environments because you’re def not getting paid enough.
Eric I love you, you are a honest architecture person I started doing house modeling.continue doing what you are doing. To me your are a mentor. My name is Fezile from south africa
State sponsored Public University Degree Gang joined the chat
WTF? I don't get it... if you go to UCLA you loose 400k ? How is that even possible? How much does that degree even cost?
It is wrong that the checks and balances of the system no longer exist. My father was a successful, prominent architect, far better than I will ever amount to, without having gone to college. He was the son of a machinist who worked for years under architects, poured concrete slabs, and actually swept the floors of an architectural school. He was eventually permitted to take his State Boards, passed, and would show an infinate return in your charts for his return on investment.
The reason I didn't go for landscape architecture is the ROI doesn't seem worth it. At least for the skills being taught. A regular architect makes the same as a landscape.
This is the same with masters vs bachelors. Although my architecture is a 5yr architecture not the 4 + 2 degree.
So..... that's how I figured it. 🤷♂️ Based on anything you can find online at least
Factors like scholarships and commuting play a role too. I am currently at one of the negative ROI schools but I pay very little compared to the full cost since I live at home and have good scholarships. I know my ROI will be positive.
But this only tells half the story right? Are those ROI figures also including the ridiculous notion of accreditation? I’d argue that finishing a degree but not going through the accreditation process is just as bad for long-term earnings. Unless you’re working for yourself are you really making $?
How'd those numbers compare against schools outside the US? Speaking of becoming an architect & going to school for it, I didnt go to school for it but am trying to do my kitchen as if I had using your kitchen series as a process template; omg, when's the next update???
This study only mined publicly available data in the US. Kitchen update coming soon, supply chain held me up for a while waiting for lights. Should be ready by early January...
Pursuing m.s. in architectural acoustics when my uscg contract ends so will be doing it all on gi bill which covers full tuition books and housing expenses. Think the r.o.i. will be pretty nice with gi bill - have you ever worked with acousticians on your projects?
Only once when I was designing large auditoriums...
Hate it when people say "if you want to make money, maybe architecture isn't for you." Well, do you think doctors and engineers say the same thing? Its this viscous cycle of these people going into architecture that creates the underpaying and overtime culture in this profession. Its time new graduates demand better pay.
Agree...! Personally, I've found this profession to be very profitable...
@@30by40 And I love your videos! Thank you for commenting. I wish new graduates could form a union and view this profession beyond just graphic diagrams and drawings. Sigh
@Ignace De Keyser nobody is solely motivated by money in any profession, but not putting money in the equation as a primary topic is a wrong take.
I had a question
Is it mandatory to learn BIM Softwares to practice in offices ?
I know autocad, SketchUp, photoshop and Archicad (which is basics). I have a fairly good command in hand drafting.
I know the whole European side is well into BIM Softwares and some countries have made it mandatory to use only BIM Softwares..
BIM may not be mandatory at the moment but in a few years it will be. Architecture has come to be more than just a graphic representation of an idea. We live in a complex economic system which is in my opinion the main reason BIM is going to be mainstream and “a must”, even for small projects like houses and so on. BIM prevents the waste of money and time.
Weird, I'm a Vandal (University of Idaho) and I'm not sure how -$99,793 was calculated but my degree didn't cost anywhere near that and I actually make money with it.
Hi sir
Can you please suggest me the most valuable architecture schools out there from where I can do a bachelors of architecture degree.
How is this measured because the university of san Francisco doesn't have a B.Arch or M.Arch?
Would you recommend, a bachelors in Arch. Or civil or structural engineering for bachelors, then arch for your major?
civil/structural engineering will pretty much guarantee you a job, it's also not as competitive.
It is hard to have a definitive Top 5 ROI for Architecture Schools when they are not all listed in the survey. My alma mater, for example, which ranks 18/6/5 nationally in Architecture, Interior Architecture and Landscape Architecture respectively or 8/1/2 when only public universities are taken into account was not represented. Your graphic presentation was very well done and enjoyable!
Thanks, Bradley...I agree and mentioned some notable omissions (Rice, Cooper Union) in my post: thirtybyforty.com/whats-an-architecture-degree-worth In spite of the study flaws I do think the information gets us closer to the truth esp. with respect to many public universities (which are subsidized by taxpayers). It raised some interesting challenges (should we be subsidizing degrees with very low ROI...for example degrees in the fine arts?) I hope you'll check out my post and the study details, and that we can continue the conversation. Cheers!
My school (Cal Poly Pomona) performed much better than I thought! I shouldn't be surprised though, the students and faculty there are incredible :))
Any help on getting through the structure’s series of junior/senior year? (Basic, intermediate, advanced structures)
We use way less of this in actual practice than in school. You need to understand it to where you can hold a conversation with the structural engineers. I was a TA/GA in those courses, and the last time I was asked to find moment, was in my ARE exams. Before that, was in school. But to get through them, make sure you are asking the TA questions in areas you don't understand. If math is not your strong suit, learn enough to pass the exams. You won't be using math past square footages and other basics in practice. Most math is in projections and paying consultants, that's something you learn in the ARE's.
@@WestTexasSunshine I appreciate the comment I’m going to be so happy when I take the final structures class and don’t have to worry about it until the exams
I'm glad Australia's system isn't as bad as America's. You still get a debt, but it has no interest and is significantly lower than the debts in the US. You also don't start paying it off until you earn a certain amount
Literally went to Syracuse and in Pratt now, since they both made your top ten i guess i'm good! Thanks for the info!
Thank God that i study in germany where i pay 800 euros a year
Yeah but you get payed less when you come out, paying more for housing, gas, etc.. so it ends up evening out for financially responsible students
Hahaha , I Woulda done way better off being a plumber or something instead. And I'm pretty busy.
The state of the architecture industry is too depressing. Graduates from architecture schools with the highest ROI would still have to pinch pennies to afford home ownership in an urban area, unless they have a large inheritance or another substantial stream of income.
Or they can find a more affordable place to lie and be happier. The way things are going right now, the dominance of big cities seems to be coming to an end.
Not too great for my university. But I’m in it for the love of architecture. Hopefully it’ll pay off as well down the line
Remember those are median figures...your love of architecture + hard work will put you on the far right fat-tail of the equation...good luck!
nice typography!
I am 33ys old,is it too late for Arch.Degree?
I answer this here: ruclips.net/video/N4qBnhGJnhA/видео.html
Thank you!
One of the flaws in the measurement is that top schools tend to select students most likely to succeed.
The study modeled a counterfactual student, which is required if you want a true comparative ROI.
@@30by40 Interesting.
What is that UCLA ROI? Do they have ultra expensive tuition fees?
Completion rates seem to be extremely low, which obviously impacts the ROI calc.
Aye, at least choosing to study architecture at Cal Poly SLO is in the positives. It's been fun and exhausting so far but I'm ready to push onwards.
Hii David
I m applying to calpoly this fall
Can you tell me something about its architecture school?
Thank you
@@arshgupta769 it's architecture program is very rigorous, and it changes each year a bit, the projects are not the same each time so I wouldn't be able to tell you about the work you will be doing in studio. I can however tell you that it's fast paced since Cal Poly is on a quarter system (a quarter is 10 weeks) instead of a semester system. Just this first quarter we have done 3 projects, we got 3 weeks to do each and they have been fun but also very time consuming. Also, as a heads up, it's quite expensive, I'm not trying to discourage you but there is a $200 architecture kit, a software called Rhino for $100, and you have to buy all your materials, none will be provided for you. Unrelated to architecture, I want to warn you of the food situation, it's mostly all vegan and Vegetarian and all the food places on campus close at 9pm, except for subway so expect to eat a lot of subway when at the studio late night. Also unrelated to architecture, as a first year you won't be able to bring a car onto campus so prepare for a lot of walking. But don't worry, there's lots of councilors and advisors and resources to help you out. So far I've really only had to pay for materials and some of my food because my scholarships covers tuition for me this year and most of my dining plan. Oh and as an architecture major you will be living on campus for 2 years because the school requires it for the 5 year programs, like architecture. It's been really fun here tho, I'm loving the weather and the work is really interesting, I would advise to meet up with a Counciler as soon as possible if you do decide to come to Cal Poly SLO to make sure you are on the right track. Oh and for orientation I suggest the CCE Track (Cross Cultural Experience) it connects you with others of different backgrounds at Cal Poly since Cal Poly SLO is predominantly a white school. There are also many people here to talk to if you ever feel out of place or need help with almost anything.
@@dividualizer Thanks david
This has been quite helpful
I had another question
Calpoly's architecture program is more technical or design based?
@@arshgupta769 it's design based, we do a lot of preliminary designs and then we revise them a lot, which is why it takes a while to get things done, also expect Test Models. In these first 10 weeks I've had 2 final models finished and 5 test models so it's very hands on.
@@dividualizer That is really nice. No wonder why calpoly is ranked so high.
How did you get a scholarship there?
Are you an US citizen?
Wtf I’m confused. Anyways how does usf measure up
So I want to go to to architecture school. And I’m going to go to university of Idaho! 😅😊
That rate for UCLA can't be right can it? It doesn't make any sense
Two things on that, first the cohort count was low for UCLA...but also, the ROI is weighted based on the completion outcomes. They had a low completion rate so that obviously impacts the projections. Here's the data if you really want to dig into it: public.flourish.studio/visualisation/7583742/
@@30by40 Yeah I do want to look into it ... I'm currently very much in danger of dropping out of UCLA's architecture program so it could not be more relevant.
Oh, no...sorry to hear...! I hope you can turn it into a positive for you and skew those results in the other direction. Would be curious to learn if you think there's a retention issue that's actually confirming the dataset. This may help other potential students. Good luck...
😊
Yeah probably not worth it at all even if you go through with it, just to make 50k a year starting out, for 7 years of very hard work, I'm getting my arch technology degree instead and will do my arch degree later just for the passion of it and not for the money.
Society boxes like with old egyptians
I'm studying for free here in YEMEN.
Thank God.
As they say, "if it's free, you're the product"
Move Country for study, its crazy the Money you have to pay in America. Sorry its a very bad system, Only those with money get to be educated.
good thing i went to VT, lol
Hi Hasheem
Please can u tell something more about VT architecture school
And if you didn't pay shit because you live in Sweden? Lol
Lol, except taxes...57.2% top personal tax rate in Sweden! No free lunch as they say