White Insulation HVAC Lineset Leaks Cause is Acid
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- Опубликовано: 11 июн 2024
- First, I don't think this is a widespread problem because the distributor I use is exclusively selling these white line sets and I am the very first warranty claim. However, this video shows that acid from the insulation is clearly the cause of leaks and green copper on this type of line set. If you have the white line set, you are probably fine unless the copper is green. Also, the manufacturer instructions say to seal the ends of the insulation. But, I doubt this will reduce the acid. I have other jobs with this line set without problems. But, at least you know what the cause is if you see this type of failure
I have literally hundreds of these leaking on a job. All with green in the insulation. This video was eye opening with regards to the acid levels. Thank you
Sorry for the bad news. At least now you know what to do. On a positive note. The failure rate is not 100%. I would guess less than 10%. But, it could be higher in certain lot numbers.
I have the same problem. Installed 2 minispits a year apart both 2 zone 18k and the newer one about 4 years old has this problem. Same brand white line sets. Replace a section last year now doing the rest.
Properly installed, purge and tested with nitrogen,
Pulled deep vacuum.
This explains it.
Great explanation
Thanks for doing this ! Great info for someone that hasn't run into this yet!
Thanks for posting. I will be sure to specify Made in USA Mueller 10 year warranty linesets for my next job.
We have had 4 cases ourselves, Great video.
It is bad when it happens to you. But, this appears to be a pretty rare issue.
A scale and a Ph test... god. Man, I feel for you. It's good to see the service/diagnostic side of the trade. Being strictly install, I only occasionally have to troubleshoot. Right now were getting leaks on our mini splits from the same linesets, but were finding its mostly at the mechanical fittings where the brass nut meets up to the flared copper so we're going to start adding crush washers. Two types of metal creating a mechanical fitting with high pressure and temperature fluctuations aren't easy on the line set.
I got bad news. There are two types of flare nuts with different angles. You have to only use the manufacturer nuts. Throw the line set nuts in the recycle. They dont match and there is no way to field measure the inside angle of the nut.
They do make purple teflon washers now that might take up the slack in the mismatched nut. Also, use the $200 orbital flaring tool. Hilmar makes it. It is well worth the money.
@@NathansHVAC do you recommend using those purple teflon washers???
My Mitsubishi AC/Heat Pump lost several pounds of 134A last year after 4-5 years use. Was recharged and limped through last Summer OK. Now it is not working again and my installer suspects that the lineset copper is leaking because of reaction with he insulation causing pinhole leaks in the copper. If it is what they suspect, there should be a class action with some compensation to everyone that should not have to go through this expanse after such short times of use. Service scheduled next week.
I hope there is a class action suit !! Seems like shabby manufacturing has ripped off thousands of homeowners.
I'm curious how this turned out? I may have a similar problem.
Im going thru the same thing right now on a 5 1/2 yr old system. Totally disgusted right now.
I just encountered this recently, and couldn’t believe it. Quality install job too (nitrogen purge, deep vacuum, etc.) I took a video as well.
Nathan What state are you in ? I have lot of info on this problem this is not just one manufacturer it is all of them that are using Poly Ethene
Looks like you may be in Massachusetts based on the look of the house and the piping job lol. The pdmus line set manufacturing company out sourced there insulation to another company that used formaldehyde in the foam. When the pipes condensate it seeps out of the foam and makes the line set pooris. I crimped and brazed one end of a pipe and brazed a port to the other end and added 300 psi of nitro. I sunk the piece of pipe in water and it was bubbling like a bubble thing in a fish tank.
That could explain the hit or miss of the insulation. If the ratio of formaldehyde to the other neutralizing chemical isn't perfect, the remaining formaldehyde will destroy the copper. I had a suspicion this is a quality control issue. But, I just stick to the black stuff to be safe. I have never heard of black foam insulation eating copper.
The bad news is it is common. I just spent last summer ripping white insulation linesets out. The good news is that now there is a recall on white insulation linesets. I ran into seven such systems in 4 months. The first one passed a 500 psi pressure test in may, and had another leak by August.
Are these recalls brand specific? Also, can you point to any further information on the recall? I have an ongoing installation where both PDM Gelcopper and PT Ryno is being used and after stumbling upon this information I am very concerned.
Had the same issue. Put dye into system and found pin holes all along the exterior lines. Had to get the line sets to 4 heads replaced with Mueller. GelCopper’s 18 month warranty is useless, just like their product.
Been seeing alot of cheap chinese copper from certain distributors fail lately. Seen pinholes and light leaks pots even in water pipe copper as well
The manufacturer said they only use one of 3 US copper companies. The date code says what company they use. However, this appears to be a chemical reaction with the acidic ph. The leaks became so big the system loses refrigerant on one day.
It might be possible the acid is from formaldehyde in the insulation. This is speculation on my part, because I only did an acid test and not a formaldehyde test. The ph is low from something. And the copper corrosion is hit an miss in almost random places on the line set. Again, I am not a chemist. But, perhaps that chemical is used in the manufacturing process of the white insulation and if it isn't all reacted inert, bad things happen to the copper.
I just ran into this, brand new install, several months later we had a leak, the Hvac guy has never seen this before and mine is leaking like mad. So frustrating, the amount of work to swap this is HUGE so it's very disheartening.
Thanks for the video. Makes me a bit nervous, have started using this kind recently. I have loved the much more durable insulation, its so much easier to not tear, looks better of install doesnt get a line cover, holds up to the sun better, doesnt absorb as much water goes back together nicely if you have to cut the insulation to bend or braze.
I know armaflex black is just fine, but on a decent percent of installs its just so easy to tear up (unless you do more braze joints - like on site bent and swayed elbow instead of trying to pass through the wall).
But none of its apparent advantages mean diddly if the lines leak in a couple years. Only been using for a little over a year, hope I dont have the same experience.
Have you seen this on other jobs or only this one batch of linesets?
I think it is pretty rare. But, it doesn't build confidence. I'm sure people will find this video if it is a bigger problem.
@@NathansHVAC This is huge issue going on
Anyone saying without a line set cover is automatically called a fucking hack.
Way to go fucking hack.
How long do you suppose it takes after a new installation before the color change is visible on the problematic copper? Would there need to be a leak for the color to change on the outside of the copper pipes?
Certainly less than 1 year. I think this is a quality control issue. You are either really going to have a fast leaker, or the system will be tight for 10 years or more. Grean is bad. Black crusty corrosion on the copper is even worse.
Is the 1/4" lighter because of the loss of copper due to pin hole leaks and disintegration/deterioration?
maybe
I have an LG that had a leak about a year ago, never completely ran out of refrigerant but became noticeably ineffective due to low pressure, and I fixed the leak by tightening the flairs. I topped of the charge and good. I started the thing in heat mode this year and got an auditable his and found a pinhole in one of the 90s on the indoor coil. The thing looked like it had a dent in it prior. A buddy of mine said it probably got acid from moisture getting in. I just dont see that because those bends should be pretty sturdy if made right. I would see the lineset failing first. Either way I fixed the leak and I am going to pump out the lines tomorrow. I dont think I need to actually recover and reweigh the charge because the system always had pressure on it. Moisture should have never gotten in under positive pressure. So, in short I think a percentage of this stuff is just manufacturing problems...
You might have the wrong flare nuts installed if you used the lineset flares instead of the flares on the LG equipment. Some are 37 degree angle. Some are 45 degree angle. You can't tell by looking at them.
I'm about to just give up. I've had problems with my heatpump since install in 2018. The warranty is for 12 years but is USELSS when we can't get Anyone in to troubleshoot Let alone repairs.
Leaks? The pipes are Literally dripping :(
I guess I’m happy I made all my own line sets with black line insulated rubatex🤫 just lucky.
I have had multiple leaks where there was some mineral wool wrapped around the line set instead of the white foam. This is only in a 2 foot section, the rest is fine. Wonder if there is a chemical in mineral wool that is a problem? I guess the idea was any insulation is better than none ... maybe not.
Iron in the wool reacted with the copper from electrolysis.
Use copper wool or non metallic foam.
Mueller had a "bad run" of line sets. I happened to be at the supply house when they were loading an entire truck with line sets. Apparently there was a manufacturing defect and it had pitted/scored and weakened/thinned the copper and certain areas.
What state are you in I'm doing research on this and trying find out if this is just an issue in the north east part of the country
@@mikecappuccio3843 I'm in New Hampshire
@@mikecappuccio3843 Florida and changed out the same ISO Polar crap but ordered from EComfort which came from the north east.
Very weird, i install a lot like this.. it is the first time or u see that on other calls?
Thanks for sharing. You said you made a claim. Did they cover the cost?
Not labor. I was able to get a small credit for the copper and buy copper with a better warranty.
What the hell . Thanks for the video.
Are Line sets included in the warranty - I have a four year old Fitjitsu with this white insulation problem / leaks
not really. They are a 3rd party manufacture not related to the equipment. labor warranty is usually 1 year too. However, they don't cost that much to replace. Mostly, it is labor. Also, make sure they use the original fujitsu flare nuts.
@@NathansHVAC thanks for the quick reply that's what I figured
The use of this copper in the last five or six years, mainly with the white insulation, have leaks in epidemic proportions.Company I work for has replaced hundreds and hundreds of copper lines in the last 5 to 6 years.Not brand specific either, have had leaks in numerous brands.
Im sure we will hear more about the white insulation. I was disappointed it is not even uv resistant. Black is best.
HVAC installer just used a white "PT RYNO" line set "made in USA 700 psi" Dated 6/21.
So the question is; are all white line sets problematic?
Just check the warranty. Industry standard is 10 years for good line sets. If the warranty is just 18 months, ask yourself why extra thick copper leaks after a single season? I think the root of the problem is quality control in the white insulation, not the copper. But, that is just my opinion. I don't want to name a particular company because I am just an a/c smuck and not an expert chemist.
Had 2 line set leaks on installs less then 2 years old. Seeing the same green and black corrosion.
It is hit or miss with the white line sets. The acid seems to be some sort of quality control issue at the factory. If your copper looks like this video, you probably need to change the entire line set. Don't bother chasing the leaks by repairing them, because they will re-form over and over from the acid. You could do an acid test to confirm.
@@NathansHVAC
Quality control in the copper or the insulation?
If the Mueller copper was in the white insulation would this occur?
If the "bad" copper was in the black insulation would this happen?
I know you don't know, but process of deduction would seem to indicate the white insulation is the cause.
@@jrsmyth9761 the factory that I talked to said they use many brands of copper with the white insulation. I'm sure there will be finger pointing. Just use line sets with a better warranty. Let them figure it all out. 18 month warranty on copper has a reason for such a poor warranty. Would you buy bricks that have such a short warranty?
Same thing going on with ours now. Sad stuff
This is a common problem with the white insulated linesets. Formicary corrosion. Lots of people are now switching to aluminum linesets only or avoiding the white insulation on Their linesets. This problem could single handedly wipe out the heat pump market.
Formicary corrosion is only from formaldehyde. I doubt they are using foam with that chemical or there would be 100% failure rate of the copper. There is some other process or quality control that leads to the acid corrosion that is probably related to manufacturing. Formicary defiantly get the evaporators. They are wet and attract chemicals from the house.
The problem they had was the insolation material. They found that it needed to be taped at both ends due to a thermal reaction of the insolation material copper temps and outside air within the lineset insolation. When the bulletin came out they said tape bothe ends at end of install. This was supposed to come off the market a while ago. I didnt look at the date of this post so maybe it did.
band aide solution
Got to have all mine replaced at $2800 cost. Mine are 5 yrs old and I suspect have been leaking for atleast 3 years. Disgusted since the dealer will still make money off of me for a product that they used.
Happy to say after ripping out the failed Italian ISO Polar crap and replacing it with Mueller I’m having no issue’s so far with any systems. To bad that in most cases the damage is done and even with new line set a flat system still had moisture in it. In cases where your system used POE oil and not PVE there’s no telling what awaits you unless you pulled the entire system apart including the compressor and flush it. Most tech’s will do the bear minimum and blame the system manufacturers only giving ductless a bad name when in reality it’s the cheap white ISO POLAR line set.
I have three of my jobs do this and I am about to post my first video about it. Yes my first one the lines that was about two years old another one was several years old in the second when I came across was about three years old and they were all on my jobs that’s why I was very pissed off. I’ve never had this problem using Mueller on any of my jobs going back over a decade. And for my grandfather who always installed hard copper from back in the 40s even on our own house and my fathers jobs in my jobs. But the isopolar leak like a sieve. And because they were from different years from the same company they can’t say it was just because of one bad batch. As for the acid as soon as the refrigerant starts leaking through the copper in the moisture from condensation react with the Fluorine gas in the refrigerant it makes hydrofluoric acid that eats away at more at the surface of the copper that’s what your pH litmus paper is picking up
the refrigerant has to break down to release the fluorine. water doesnt break down refrigerant. UV does and extreme heat. i have seen thousands of leaks and they never looked like these with the extreme pitting just like rust.
NathansHVAC Yes you’re exactly right that’s because this is not normal Copper with the same alloy that we are used to seeing in our past. At first I was just going to cut out the sections that were bad. But just this last two weeks ago I had to go back and repair more leaks on a job with leaks from ISO POLAR. So now I’m tearing out all the copper on every job as soon as I find a first leak that looks like this I have to re-copper the whole job from beginning to end. Talk about ruining your name and your reputation not to mention the monetary loss in both materials even if they gave you materials back for free do you really want to put that back in your job. Starting to remind me of the old car that was called a Yugo. I’ve never seen Copper deteriorate like this before. And this Copper is in the same location with buildings that had copper in it for 40+ years with no leaks and no corrosion. What’s up with that.
The siding on the house looks terrible. Maybe they tried to wash it and some of the cleaner seeped into the insulation?
Good point. I asked that question several times to the customer. They said no.
If they tried washing it they did a horrible job
Interesting idea.
this is a wide spread problem, if you follow manufactures install instruction it tells you that you have to seal the ends and tears with approved methods and products to keep moisture out. likely from ph. content of our water and a chemical reaction from insulation and copper.
Nobody seals the black line set ends. I never seen one sealed in 30 years. I also never seen a black line set with acid inside the insulation. Plus, moisture will always get in. It impossible to have a perfect seal. The seal clause to void an already pathetic warranty is just a diversion.
That bulletin came out after the issue started to cover there crap product. All of the failed line sets were sealed tight with UV line set tape to the condenser and still failed.
Almost all of the line sets we have had like that did the same thing. I suspect all will leak by the time they hit 10 years old
Are they green and black?
I bought a 164ft length of 3/8 5/8 for 3 minis they all failed.
If the copper is black and green, you know why.
On a positive note, the line sets do change out pretty quick.
@@NathansHVAC yup sure is. And they’re the brand in question. Bought in early 2019ish. I used the 164 for 3 and 50ft for a fourth. The fourth has the bumpy white insulation that came in 50ft so it’s different. I’m wondering if it’s a matter of time for them too. The output temp seems to match the other 2 I fixed with shear line (think that’s what the lines are called) but it seems to be working a little harder but it’s really tough to tell since they’re in a grow room and I think it’s getting more of a load. Maybe I’ll peel back some insulation. There’s a little bit outside that’s not insulated and it doesn’t look as bad as what I’ve replaced but I’m not an hvac tech lol
@@NathansHVAC I also have the white bumpy ones at my home which was built in 2020. They’re for a 3 ton fujitsu non mini split and I pray they’re ok because they’re buried in wall 🤦🏻♂ the ones I’ve replaced for mini splits weren’t buried. I have no idea how to replace sets buried probly tear the wall apart
Mine are mueller industries that failed
we are running into mass problems with the white linesets
Are you seeing green copper?
Dogs been peeing on the line set!!!
No. The acid was even on the roof. Dogs tend to chew the insulation. But, there were no dogs at this location.
Found a bulletin that may help explain. have personally seen on one lineset that was about 3-4 years old. Unfortunately I just discovered this my company has been using this type of lineset alot lately.... www.blodgettsupply.com/data/Unsorted/Armacell_USTechBulletin_Tubolit_WLS_CUI_111218_WLS001-81719-1.pdf
All that extra work will not prevent a damaged piece from allowing moisture in. I have found it much easier to use the other brands that have 10 year or 50 year warranty and have no moisture issues at all. In 40 years doing this i cant ever remember seeing line sets that cant be allowed to get wet. The problem is the acid, not the water.
I'm so angry with these failures. Costing me thousands of dollars. I'm changing every single line set out. Everyone has pinhole leaks. Don't even bother using dye anymore as every one has micro pinholes.
Rich What state are you in I'm doing some research on this to find out if this isolated to the north east part of the USA
Yea you can use the black Linesets but yea it’s still frustrating
Have you had to change every brand of the white line sets?
Very Frustrated - Mueller Gelcopper linesets (white jackets) were used on my system (manufacturing date 5/15/16) Started having problems a year ago. Linesets have rotted out! Installer says not their problem, Mueller says not a problem if install is correct (sealed ends). Will cost $5K to swap out the linesets!!!! This is a known problem and Mueller should make it right! Very disappointed with this company.
If the copper is green or the worse black, you have to change it all out. I'm sure there is a lot of finger pointing on who put the acid on the copper. Just go by the warranty to see what is best. Mueller typically warranties 10 or more years when black insulation is on their copper. At least you know what to do now.
I'll say it here for everyone's benefit - Isopolar line sets are junk!
Yep. I use the black ones and just wrap them with lineset tape for ease of installation. They wrap pretty quick when on the ground.
Mildew and green mold like damp acidic environments. The acid is likely coming from something in the environment around the house.
Inpurities in the copper, it has oxygen in it.
The copper oxide is the green. Acid oxidizes metals. That is how you clean pennies. You put them in acid and the dirty copper is etched away. The acid removes the natural protective layer of the copper and exposes the pure metal to the air. Also, oxygen won't create acid.
@@NathansHVAC oxi oxygen? The problem lays in the production process of copper, this has to be oxygen free, if not it creates problems, also the recycling of copper makes this more challenging. Oxygen and water creates acid and will continiusly clean your penny until theres nothing to clean anymore.
Wash your house bro
It is not my house.
@@NathansHVAC makes sense