The Myth Of Shonen Sonic
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- The Shonen Sonic debate is another thing that pisses me off. Sonic the Hedgehog is a stupid twat who was produced is SEGA’s grimy lab in Japan. Sonic has become undoubtedly, one of the most recognisable characters ever, and one of the main reasons for that is SEGA wanted to pursue a mascot that was going to be “a bit hit in America” as the former president of SEGA Of Japan, Hayao Nakayama declared to all his staff working at SEGA at the time. And while success in Japan was obviously still a priority for SEGA, it was concluded that an attractive American property which still be appealing in Japan. The point of this video really is to undermine the view that Sonic the Hedgehog is a Shonen character. Well, he is a Shonen character, but it’s complicated. It all boils down to the fact that the hivemind of the Sonic community doesn’t actually understand what Shonen is, so the result is we get stupid takes which claim Sonic was initially a super epic Dragon Ball Z knockoff, to becoming a Saturday Morning Cartoon Show for babies, and in my opinion, I don’t know which option would be worse.
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When people say "Shonen" I feel like what they actually mean is "action packed and capable of getting serious, not 100% comedic", which is absolutely not an anime exclusive thing.
Sonic fans sometimes do a really bad job at articulating their thoughts, instead resorting to empty buzzwords and repeated arguments. There's a difference between saying "I miss it when Sonic games had serious moments and more of a focus on story compared to newer entries" and "I MISS IT WHEN SONIC WAS SHONEN AND NOT THIS META BABY SHIT!"
exactly, "shonen" is just a way of saying cool
Thing is though is sonic isn’t even meta in the actual games sure he makes jokes but that’s not even close to meta,the only thing meta I see is when they do those twitter takeovers which I don’t see how that’s remotely a bad thing
I think the issue lies less with the genre and more with the writing style, specifically a Japanese written story heavily inspired by American/western media. The way alot of the "Shonen" type games are written and paced is moslty derived from Japanese culture, so all the tropes and cultural elements will bleed into it. With the only added difference that it has a lot of western influences put into the narrative and characters. So the fans see these anime-esque moments and go "yeah that's shonen".
This reminds me of the same generalization of the mythical "momentum" gameplay fans want; it's such a vague term that if you ask anyone outside of the fanbase they won't know what you mean, since its a broad concept. Where if you were to say "ball rolling physics" the idea would get across better.
lol momentum
I think that sonic should have a healty influence of both sides. American and shonen/japanese thats what's makes sonic so special. Look at sa2 for an example!
Very true!
About 3 minutes in, and this video is wrong on all fronts. Researching Shonen on google of course won't give you a good taste of what shonen actually is. Shonen is aimed at 10-18 year old boys, below shonen is kodomo(which is the most childish, example would be the pokemon TV anime) so to be considered shonen needs a certain level of "edge" to it. If you didn't know(and I know for sure you don't), ALL Sonic Japanese media(Sonic X, the OVA, Sonic mangas) have all been given the "Shonen" tag and never kodomo tag. Why? It's because Sonic while is still for a young audience isn't primarily aimed at that toddlers/infants crowd, but moreso for pre-teen/teens and young adults.
Although, there's more to shonen than age demographic. What gives something a "shonen" feel actually depends on how the main character is written. WESTERN entertainment typically focuses on traditional heroism, this means following the government, don't disobey the people's wishes, always be on the lookout for evil ect.
JAPANESE SHONEN protags typically aren't written like this(they used to be before in the 80s and 70s, but dragon ball changed it), shonen protags normally have "pure" characters that follow their own heart first and foremost, even if people don't agree. An example of this is Luffy, free spirited main character that repeatedly fights the law and order in his world. Goku is another example, he sets up a huge tournament that can cost universes being destroyed just so that he can get a good fight(which is selfish). Rukia in bleach committed a crime and was to be executed, but Ichigo still went to save her even if he was disobeying the soul society's laws. Sonic is the same, he didn't mind playing the villain in Sonic and the black knight(literally prevented Merlina from creating a perfect eternal world), knocking out GUN soldiers in SA2 and disobeying their authority.
Another important thing to know is that when Ohshima went to New York to see which design was the best and chose the hedgehog design, Dragon Ball wasn't introduced to Americans until 1995 and 1996 for Z. And yet this happened in 1989.
“We didn’t want to go down that route”
…my guy… it was too late for that the moment Super Sonic and the 7 Chaos Emeralds were introduced.
The section about dark age games inspired by western media actually kind of ties into shonen because the reason especially modern shonens exist is because things like Fist of the North Star were inspired by 70s action films from the US. The stories from the Dark age still aren't close to shonen but i just wanted to point that out
True true. It's kinda like a cycle I suppose? But Naka definitely wanted '06s story to be more like a Superhero film than anything else, it feels like a plot an MCU writer would've thought of.
nah, fist of the nort star or american films of that age don't look like a modern shonen at all
@@roseforgottheaccentjett I Thought Sonic 06 was a Final fantasy type Story.
But yeah, Nakamura wanted 06 to have the same Succes like the Spider man trilogy.
If you don't like how he's taken out in Unleashed, then you don't like how he's portrayed in the Japanese versions.
Same for how he’s portrayed in 06.
As a Sonic Fan, I've only heard ONE person call the 2000's Games Shonen.
Also, Shoutout to Sonic X & The Storybook Series for being Isekai
As a Sonic fan, I've heard lots of people call the 2000s games Shonen.
I'll accept Sonic X and The Storybook games for being Isekai, as the definition is way more specific and accurate to X, Secret Rings and Black Knight.
This attitude that Sonic has is only in the American versions, if you look at the Japanese manuals of the Mega Drive games and the Japanese versions of the games, Sonic is a completely different character, it's just that the american versions didn't do a good job portraying Sonic.
Nah sonic definitely has an attitude in the games. Just look at his idle animations
True, even in the japanese dialogue in games, he delivers his lines completely different and sounds like less of an asshole, this is especially true in Sonic Adventure, which is why I always play the games in Japanese and download translation mods so I can read the JP script because I honestly prefer sonic's japanese portrayal.
@Kian watch a comparison with correct translation, the direction of sonic's character is quite different.
If it ain’t broke don’t fix it then
I think if they just stopped at Hyper Sonic, it would've been good.
Especially since there's a whole ritual or whatnot in making the already infinite energy of the Chaos Emeralds into SUPER Emeralds.
Goku's first Super form was great because it was a legend being fulfilled. And then the other forms kinda just, happened.
I just think Hyper Sonic would be pointless in anything other than Sonic 3, stories would get messy and devolve into DBZ ripoffs, when Super Sonic is enough.
Although having said that, I've always thought it would be cool to have a sorta "Shadow Dragon" like story, where the Chaos Emeralds become useless.
@@roseforgottheaccentjett well the "shadow dragons" type story kinda happend in unleshed
the funny thing is, sonic doesnt even fit the age range for the shonen demographic, and the sonjc manga we've had were never published in shonen magazines, it was always kodomo (young children) magazines like koro koro comic
Interesting video, there’s probably a possibility for hyper sonic to come back in frontiers
Maybe, because you get super sonic from the get go to fight the titans so maybe he needs something stronger for the final boss.
Great vid, loved it. What are your thoughts on Ian flynn writing Sonic Frontiers, Do you think he’s going to make it “Shonen?”
Ian Flynn seems a little bit overhyped, and with the way he talks in those interviews, it seems he is gonna make it "Shonen".
Wait, Ian is the writer for Frontier???
...trying to define shonen like that is like trying to define the word "cool" the meaning is different depending on the context it's used in, most interactions I've seen Shonen can be replaced with "epic" and they'd mean the same thing, even if it's aimed at kids sonic games have always been ambitious with storytelling and having cool moments that stick with you
atleast that's been my experience and that's something I really like because even if a game's fun after, you beat it the game's over but with stuff like "gears of war" "the last of us" or any persona game the story will stick with you long after you've stopped playing the game (plus the IDW sonic comics are really good) I didn't latch onto a franchise that only told stupid jokes that 7 year olds probably wouldn't find funny I loved the series because of the epic action and stories they told even if some were bad they tried everytime.
This reminds me of the situation with "Alternative" music. It's now more of a genre than it is a demographic.
I thought the reason why people liked sonic in the first place was because he was a ass sometimes his personality was why he appealed more than Mario I like a asshole hero rather than a generic hero it goes against sonic character to be a generic hero
Miracle video!
1:53 what did saturday morning cartoons ever done to you brah ?😢
Sonic is always been a Shonen protagonist since at least since they introduced plot driven games so since 1998
So you just said everything with a plot equals shonen now
Heavily disagree look up why Sonic is fundamentally Japanese.
2:11 so anything in the action genre
nice video Jett, im really enjoying your content upload alottt more bro
Thank you. I had exams ok 😭
@@roseforgottheaccentjett no prob man i just really like your stuff and i hope you get allot more subs lol
Loved the ending with Gerrard.
GERARD!!!
OOOOOOHHHHHH YOU BEAUTYYYY!!!!!!!!!!
An abysmal manager though.
@@roseforgottheaccentjett he Just Needs time.
Guardiola and Klopp didn't Manage series Competitors until Years.
Villa was still too big of a job for him. But we have Super Unai Emery now.
@@roseforgottheaccentjett ah yes, Unai Emery, Villareall's Only Chance to be relevant in Spanish Football.
But yeah, Unai should be better off now with Villa, Phil Coutinho.
@@ataladin87 We WILL be BACK in Europe, where we BELONG.
What is blud talking about
Bro used the word Blud once and think he’s the coolest person around
sOnIc UnLeAsHeD enD mAdE mE cRy!!!
He's being Shonen 😍
It always makes me laugh because the sonic story teaches the most baby kiddy lesson ever like “never give up” or “with the power of friendship anything is possible” and fans eat this up like it’s some genius smart literature
Cool vid
Thank you!
So basically shonen is just another way to say "cartoon"?
Nah it just means media made for teenage boys
Yeah p-13 cartoon basically even though I think sonic isn’t even that dark enough to receive that rating besides shadows the hedgehog
Nice
0:32 yes he does
Sonic in 06 has MANY great lines. LOL. Nothing starts until you take action. If you have time to worry than run is one of his best lines in the series. He has just as much attitude in that game as he does in the Japanese versions of the previous games. It isn't his writing that is different, it's the facial expressions that are bad that give off that impression. He was never the super narmy/over the top character that the Adventure dubs portrayed him as. He also has combative dialogue in the boss fights so this point is incorrect. He was never supposed to be a jerk and was never portrayed as one in the canon Japanese scripts. Your issue comes down to growing up with the badly localized Adventure dubs which aren't the true version of the character. Colors completely butchered his character by making him a too cool for school dude bro crap which the canon Japanese versions NEVER portrayed him as.
Also Shiro Maekawa (Writer for 06) has confirmed that he was tasked to "Create a story similar to SA2". So unless you're saying that SA2 was modeled after Western stories to appeal to Western people than the Naka quote is taken completely out of context.
Again, the 90's commercials/properties are neither canonical nor were ever what his Japanese creators had in mind for the character. They are bad localization changes and are not indicative of what he was ever supposed to be like and thus are not valid for the argument.
9:10 Not in the canon Japanese scripts. ;)
10:00 Nope, it's the most interesting era of Sonic and is completely in line with his canon Japanese storyline roots of the Adventure games and Japanese manuals for the classics.
10:11 Yes, he was. You just were exposed to the non canon western elements that the creators hated and thus got rid of with Japanese Adventure first.
Having character design based off of western media and wanting to appeal to both audiences doesn't mean that they wanted him to be a stereotypical western character. His personality/character was NEVER meant to be what you're arguing in favor of, so you're just wrong. You can prefer "Western/Americanized" Sonic as a character, but that is NOT what the character was EVER portrayed as in the Canon Japanese versions of the games.
Well, in the Japanese versions of the games from 2010 onwards, he is still well characterized. Unfortunately, the Japanese versions are not the original ones, as they were written in English first (with the exception of Forces and Free Riders)
@@talesxavier5752 the japanese versions is still following their original canon/characterizations
@@SuzukiCabs The original Canon yes, now regarding characterization, most of the characters are faithfully characterized, especially Sonic and Shadow.
Right, there is a lot to unpack here.
The lines you mention are just random Fortune Cookie quotes, and if anything, is an unexpected sharp contrast from the rest of the tripe that comes out of his mouth in the game. It’s like the writers thought at the last minute they needed him to be “like Sonic” and stuffed in two motivational quotes from a website they found.
Watching the Adventure dubs, literally nothing about his personality has changed, it’s only the dialogue that is altered, which makes no difference to how he is characterized, they just swap out insults.
But even if you want to say that the dub is world’s apart from the Japanese script, you have to acknowledge that even the art screamed “over the top”, with Uekawa’s stringy proportions and radical poses.
Sonic is a jerk, they even say in your Japanese manual, “Sonic doesn’t see Miles as a companion, but he does earnestly watch him with a sidelong glance” which I certainly think aligns with what I said about how “he still cares about others, but he has a different way of showing it.” Wouldn’t you say?
Tails was merely a reflection of what SEGA wanted people to see Sonic as. Tails in the Japanese manuals is literally just there to prop up Sonic’s coolness. It reads: “His head is full of wanting to be like Sonic.” and “meeting Sonic, he made an effort to become like Sonic, and Miles’ personality became bright, cheerful and positive.”
Sonic’s traits in that same manual were exclusively described as fast, cool and popular. What I’m getting at is that, in both America and Japan, displaying Sonic as the coolest thing ever was top priority. So yes, Sonic is this ultra-cool character, not some mellowed out damp cardboard.
I’m not talking about Colours, I even say in the video I think Colours’ Sonic and Colours’ story is shit and I also say that I didn’t want Sonic to be a Saturday Morning Cartoon Show, so I suppose you weren’t listening.
I don’t really know why the Naka quote becomes obsolete because of what a previous game was like, but yeah, I suppose I am saying Sonic Adventure 2 story was for Westerners. I mean it’s not much of a stretch if they were developing the game in San Francisco, in addition to the fact Iizuka described SA2 having “an American flavour”. You can certainly tell, as the story in SA2 feels like it’s never slowing down, like in a blockbuster action movie.
I wasn’t talking about the adverts in the video, I was just using it as background footage, but it’s still worth noting that both in America and Japan ads, Sonic was presented as the same thing, cool. The Claymation one of Sonic standing on the limousine, being greeted with rabid fans and the H.A.G. advert springs to mind.
I would agree with you that a character design isn’t always indicative of their personality. But except with Sonic, we know that he was directly inspired by Bill Clinton.
So no, I’ve not been “corrupted by the filthy non-canon American interpretation”, you’ve asked me to look at the Japanese manuals, and all they’ve done is backed up my points.
@@roseforgottheaccentjett Everything you said is wrong though. Sonic has always been characterized as a nice guy first and foremost in Japan. He has a little snark to him but he has never been a jerk. So, yes you have been “corrupted” by non canon dub portrayals.
SA2 is clearly anime inspired in its storytelling as are all the good Sonic stories. Having a location based off of A United States city doesn’t change that. Lol.
Just stop making Sonic for babies and bring back a more EPIC feeling
Sonic is for kids 🤷♂️
@@roseforgottheaccentjett Older Kids
@@roseforgottheaccentjett No, he's not.
@@roseforgottheaccentjett Kids like death, destruction and disaster. Gerry Anderson understood this and this is why his shows like Captain Scarlet and Thunderbirds are still enjoyable to this day. SEGA, Sonic Team and you would do very well to understand this.
@@epsilonalphaargo1948 Ok? Doesn't change the fact that every piece of Sonic media is targeted at children.
Why dont you like sonic Unleashed? Will you actually explain one day?
Some day I'll do a big ol' review, but there are lots of videos I rather do first.
Cool video.
I sorta agree with a lot of points although I liked unleashed sonic and think it makes sense I mean think about it from an in game universe verse perspective it's clear that Sonic and other anthropomorphic physically age slowly so Jason and well even in JP version of unleashed sonic acting a little more mature makes sense because years past and he's been through a lot, and lost some friends like Emerl, been to the inside of a little book he beat up an abusive boyfriend of the genie who asked him to help so he had to matured a lot at some point so it makes sense if anything Sonic being strong enough not to be controlled by dark gaia's energy and instead have his body harness it creating a form between himself and a spawn really adds to his cool dude attitude, he was a dude who once was cool and had attitude but then he met people and saw things, things that made him grow and mature until he eventually became a dude who's a lot more compassionate but also keeps some of that thar attitude and as always is sure of who he is.
The revelation that Sonic and the Black knight brought of him agreeing to take Amy on a date just shows and adds even more to that development and his final line to Merlina about life just adds to his maturity growth, in a way "dark ages" were just Sonic's character development cause much like real life they can't stay exactly the same forever people change so Sonic matured just like we do it actually makes him feel more real tbh. It's actually why I sometimes wished the current English va (I forget his name at the moment) would try to capture that maturity just bit more although he has gotten better at doing it. The truth is most people and Sonic fans can't respect the beauty of character development. As for O6 the game was never technically completed as the director retired early and then sega rushed the team to release the game before they could figure out which order the retired directors notes were meant to be in so they could finish the game that why it's so jarring because O6 is a game stuck in a beta state forever it had nothing to do with the VA's the final versions each line just weren't added in do to the team being rushed after losing there director and being threatened with being fired if they couldn't release it on the due date because the game was meant to be so much longer and have more of a story along with the trial of love choice impacting the actual story but instead we were given an unfinished game thanks to sega JP ceo at the time not understanding or respecting the damage losing a director does to a project and of course the team had to eat so ye.
But I agree Sonic has always been Shonen and always will be after "Shonen" is just made for boys and or more mature people it's basically the genre equivalent of a video games E for everyone rating when ya really think about and tbh sailor moon the orginal was also Shonen as boys and more mature people who actually watched and read it thoroughly enjoyed it as it had some gore and a more serious plot as the series went on even having some Shonen like humor which was due to the creator being of male gender tbh I think sailor moon s is a disgrace to the franchise a franchise that tried to show that things like magical girls could be Shonen a franchise that inspired series like Madoka Magica and etc... I know that seems unrelated to sonic but I feel it really matches with point of this video that most of the Sonic fanbase don't understand what Shonen even is and only a select few of the Sonic fanbase like you and me understand what it really means and can actually appreciate the franchise. Personally I feel like Beserk and Sailor moon, Madoka magica are actually probably good examples of what Shonen is and can be and that all the people using "Dragonball Z" as an example should learn what Shonen is and what Dragonball as a series and franchise is truly like instead of watching clips of the fights or just remembering the fights in "Dragonball Z" that they saw as children because in my opinion if they can't do that then they have no right to talk of or about Shonen in anyway nor say they are a fan of the genre.
Sonic was always a better character in the Japanese versions. The way Sonic is portrayed in Unleashed is how he has always been portrayed in the Japanese versions.
@@talesxavier5752 And 06 (Bad facial expressions on his model not withstanding.)
They age the same. It’s just the games have Pokemon syndrome.
@@bunsmasterbunny In Pokémon lore the reason the characters don't age that much is because sense ancient times human Pokémon mating happened like sense ledgend of Arceus time and as a result the humans in the Pokémon world take longer to age then us so yeah you right Sonic does have Pokémon syndrome and it makes sense fyi Mental age isn't equivalent to physical age it's been proven multiple times so you've done literally nothing but prove my entire argument and statement so thank you.
@@Supersonicblue1027 That’s just folklore. Non canon. Humans and Pokemon never had sex.
You mispronounced Doraemon as DoRayMon
Ok.
I love sonic Unleashed. The gameplay was terrible, visuals were hideous and the terrible story and writing made me cry. There will never be a game like sonic unleashed ever again!....thank god 😂
But he was Shonen tho 😐
ᵖʳᵒᵐᵒˢᵐ 😌
Hi
Hi.
@@roseforgottheaccentjett :)