Blood Groove! - Fullers & Grooves in Knives and Swords
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- Опубликовано: 28 май 2024
- In this video, bladesmith Walter Sorrells discusses grooves in cutting implements and tools like knives and swords.
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Хобби
I-beams are shaped that way to let the blood from construction workers not interfere with assembly.
When I heard I beams as a kid, I thought of Superman or Cyclops of X Men shooting heat rays.
😂
I love how at the beginning he was so straight forward for one they're not blood grooves l O l. Thanks man that answered half of my question right off the rip
Speaking as a mechanical engineer who loves your videos, that was a great explanation of both the neutral axis in I-beams and rotational moments of inertia. 2.5 oz removed far from the wrist does indeed allow for significantly faster rotation. I suspect you’re an engineer-in-hiding...hiding in your shop after finding the office job after college wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. There are a lot of us out there...ha.
Garage engineers are the best innovators. Reject status quo. Push envelope.
@@907AlphaKilo But pushing envelope sounds exactly like the office job would be :v
Don't forget that some fullers also make a pretty sweet noise when the sword is swung.
Nah, that noise comes from whoever you are swinging it at... Lol!
Robert G lol
@@TrojanHorse1959 😂
I was told that the ka-bar has a blood grove. The blood grove decreases the force needed to pull a knife out when it’s stuck in. Just as you pointed out flesh and muscle contracts around a blade. A blood grove helps to release the suction on the blade but letting air seep between the blade and flesh. Pull a suction cup from the back center, it sticks. Pull it from one of the edges, letting in air it releases.
Hi
The facsimile plans I had for a ka-bar describes the fullering/indenting/grooving as a blood groove. I’m thinking that maybe long ago someone made an efficient engineering shape that happened to be easier to pull out and the two ideas merged. Regards from Oz, hope you’re well 😊
Thats what I always understood the groove to be for 👍
Ive heard them called Airbips, and was told the purpose was to allow for faster decopression of a Torso and would allow for a faster stabbing motion as you dont have the resisting vacuum as you penetrate into a the Body
Adding the history and reason for certain technical designs makes the subject much more interesting. Luv your vids
All your videos are incredibly informative! Thanks
As always… an amazing video. Thank you!
Great explanation thank you. I had always thought the groove, on a Bowie knife for instance which is comparatively short, was to reduce suction when pulling it out. I agree with the badass factor. I have a Bowie style knife that doesn’t have one and I want to make one; which brought me here looking for info.
That made a lot of sense, thank you!
Thank you Walter for explaining that to us
Thank you for bringing me back to my mechanical engineering classes. That was a long time ago. Clearly you know your stuff.
It’s also worth mentioning that in a hard directional change (think about a blade crashing into something), the same mass that helped it cut or bludgeon whatever it just cut or bludgeoned, is now instantly working to make it break itself. Very much a dichotomy at work.
Certainly have no way to get FEA on a hand hammer welded and shaped sword, but I’d also bet a dollar that the grooved sword has less twist on its center axis than a non grooved counterpart.
But mostly... just looks bloody awesome. Couldn’t resist.
You mean _fullery_ awsome, I suppose? Sheesh... some people. XD
Best video explaining fullers that I've seen.
Yes! A new video!!
Love your videos!
The more pertinent physiological fact about "blood grooves" is that it DOESN'T MATTER whether or not the blood exits the "body." As long as the blood exits the VESSELS the effect on lowering blood pressure will be the same -- whether the blood runs into the tissues surrounding the vessels or out the skin itself.
The Bo-hi on a katana also practically gives operator feedback on correct technique through sound.
The myth I was taught (with great authority) by my grandfather, a WWI vet. He claimed that bayonets without fullers would get stuck by suction action in their opponents, and bayonets with fullers (such as his 1907 pattern) would pull right out for another stab because the air could get into the wound tract.
This was one among many stories I later discovered were interesting myths, promulgated by a very nice old farmer with a very full life, but an 8th grade education.
The suction theory is the one i've heard as well.
@@hayesbrown1021 I tested it in a gallon of Jello, with a Sharpened piece of flat mild steel (no grove), and an original pattern 1907 bayonet (huge fuller). No difference. Not exactly definitive, but certainly indicative. I think there are a couple of more scientific you tubes on the subject.
I grew up to that myth as well. But once I learned a bit more I knew it was false. Though does make for a cooler story. Blood groove also increases the surface area, which then would cause even more suction (only a little more).
I must have known the same guy as I got the same story... believe the tech term was stickshon.. got to love these stories.
@@danwerkman I am certain that this story was told to recruits in boot camp, by some drill sergeant (also with a 6th grade education), to avoid having to say they didn't know.
The groove can beautifully cover imperfections made by a hobbyist swordsmith, lining the edge bevel for a more successful look.
So if you want to be badass, get your groove on...
My member is an anomaly. Its flexion is inversely proportional to the force applied to it. Amazing, I know.
Sounds like the same reason why the compact tissue in bones isn’t solid, but hollow in the center: best strength / weight ratio.
Good explanation. I knew the fuller isn’t a gutter for blood to run through- that explanation doesn’t make much sense- but I wondered how removing that little material makes much difference in the weight. I guess sometimes it might be just enough to give a tiny advantage.
Good explanation as expected. Since the blade length on a sword is so much longer than with a knife, the weight reduction for function would not be enough to matter unless throwing the knife. However, any weight reduction could matter with carrying, especially with those of us already carrying too much around the waist.
I thought it’s to make it easier to pull the sword out of a body. Like how some chef knives have indents to prevent the food your chopping from sticking to the knife.
Ah,the ol "blood gutter",we've all seen them and most of us know it's called a "fuller" but I doubt many know the purpose...Thanks!
Hey thanks! What do you call those ridges on the top of some knives where you put your thumb?
Nevermind, I found it. Thumb rise and Jimping. Thanks for the informative content.
Lets air in to make easier to pull out of wound. But also for aesthetics and balance
What’s that tool you’re using to scrape out the fuller?
Hey Walt.. I really like that Fuller tool (cutter?). Where can I get one?
That "fuller tool" is actually what is called a fuller. Not the groove it makes
You can find numerous videos about blacksmith tooling right here on RUclips
ruclips.net/video/Scn1uSpP4Ig/видео.html
Groovy
Great. That's why I am putting a Fuller in my blade wakizashi , is to make it lighter and for looks. But I'm having a hard time.
groovy
Great video (+1), and great explanation of fullers. Spot on !
One minor comment however - I thought the debunking explanation of the "blood groove" misperception missed the mark slightly. My impression was that it's less grounded in the notion that it somehow helps blood drain away (it doesnt) - rather, I found it more commonplace for people to think it helped reduce the likelyhood of a blade getting trapped in someone's torso by having a groove that prevents soft tissue from forming a surface vaccum onto the flats of the blade ... much like the kullens on a chef knive prevents vegetable slices from not releasing properly. That's one of the perceptions anyway ... even though it's mostly FALSE. First of all, the vaccum effect, while somewhat noticeable in light duty slicing, is mostly negligable for a stabbing motion, much less a STRONG stab. Also, while there are indeed stabbing attacks with a katana that target the torso (ex: mirote ski), most strikes are actually slashing cuts that present little chance of getting trapped in soft tissue. The important take away is that the effect of soft tissue vaccuming onto the surface of a sword, while real, are largely negligable not relevant to combat. If you run someone through with a sword, and it gets stuck at all, it will more likely be due to getting wedged into bone or armor, not due to soft tissue sucking onto the flats, and a groove will have no effect on the former. 😉
You need to brush up on your transcription skills. It's _morote tsuki_ and not what you wrote. ;) Btw, I heard the draining blood thing in a hunting context, eg. when you stick a hog it will bleed out faster, which is, as you have rightly pointed out, bollocks.
@@kaizoebara Thank you for the correction ... it's been decades since I learned the move and the term for it, and at the time I never bothered to look up the spelling, so that was an eggregious phonetic misguess on my part. I'll look it up shortly to double check we're both referring to the same thing.
@@kaizoebara Ok, the first vid I checked was wrong, but this seems close ... one of the basic forms that centers on a two handed thrusting lunge. I dont know if the difference is due to my memory or that the school I was in was different from the one in this vid, but I learned to perform it slightly differently (i remember the lunge being much lower, faster, more explosive and entailed travelling further forward with both feet during the lunge portion). 1987ish was a long time ago, and my memory is far from excellent. Gratitude.
Watch "6 - Roppon me - Morote Tsuki (also Morote Zuki)" on RUclips
ruclips.net/video/hq60go5B_1E/видео.html
@@RovingPunster I've studied both martial arts and Japanese, so you can trust me. The term _morote_ just means 'both hands' and _tsuki_ is a thrust. However, the question whether _tsuki_ becomes _zuki_ or not is difficult as there are no hard&fast rules for when so-called _nigori_ (voicing of voiceless consonants in compound words) occurs.
@@kaizoebara I always thought nigori meant fresh unfiltered sake, but there are clearly an infinitude of words in many languages that can have multiple completely different meanings depending on context. Anyway, thanks again for the informative correction.
The one I've heard the most is that it keeps from making the blade stick in the body due to suction.
That's also the reason I believe, it's to channel pressure out from the body, but I also think it's to reduce weight
Actually having a fuller increases the physical area of a blade and living tissue seals against a puncturing object. So if the blade has more area then the "suction" would actually be worse. Stabbing living flesh is totally different than something like cardboard. Flesh has it's own natural defenses against punctures. Anyway there is no "suction" with a stab or cut it's only frictional resistance during both the stab and withdrawal. A slim needle stiletto is easier to stab someone with than a K-Bar for a reason. It has less surface area.
It also helped with the flexibility of the sword and its ability to spring back after it was bent. With older metals If there is a lot of metal in the spine and it bent it most likely would stay bent. Creating the fuller helped it not keep bent.
Always enjoy and appreciate your videos man. Though I’m curious...do you read from cue cards while recording or is all off-the-cuff?
While this was an excellent video, I would take issue with one point you made. When discussing the weight variance of a sword with and without fullers, you stated that a couple of ounces (roughly 5% of the blade) is imperceptible. Well, to be fair, I believe you said “fairly imperceptible,” but I would disagree with that. I can easily tell the difference in identical pieces that have only a slight variance of a few ounces. Think about it like a baseball bat. Swing a bat that is 33” long and 30 ounces in weight, then swing a bat that is 33” long and 33 ounces. The 33 ounce bat feels like POUNDS have been added. Ok, maybe not pounds, but there is a significant and noticeable weight difference. The qualifier to this is based on the inertial discussion you so adeptly describes. If it wasn’t for the length of a sword, one might not notice the weight difference. If you replace the two 33” swords with 10” Bowies, the 3 ounce difference might not be noticeable.
So yeh...I nerded out a little, with the only point being illustrated in this poem I wrote you:
weight perception increases,
the longer the piece is.
Cheers!
Ka-Bar calls the groove on their knives a blood groove. If the knife maker calls it a blood groove then it's a blood groove. If they call it a moon crater then it's a moon crater.
people call it a blood groove, but the reason is because it creates less resistance when you pull it out. was also used to lighten blades =) but hey i am some dude on the internet, what the hell do i know
I dont think it has any thing to do with blood or makeing it easier to pull out.i think it helps wound entry.it help make a deeper faster entry.
Yeah
How do I contact you?
Grooves make the blade groovy.
I think of it as a “lazy H” beam
Interesting.. I’ve always thought it was basically an airway that helped prevent the blade from getting stuck… the more ya know
No engineer here for sure but have been around for awhile. I am curious by nature by anything mechanical, my dad was a Structural Engineer at GM for years, I guess the apple doesn't fall far. I always thought it was for rigidity in the blade, by altering the molecular grain of the alloy in the forging process it would add significant strength in that area of the blade. I disagreed with the weight reduction aspect being under the impression the blades were forged and the fuller was created in the forging and not created by removing material.
There are fuller tools for use in forging, Which create grooves by squashing the workpiece. And from what I can gather it pushes the material to the side, creating bulges on both sides which I'm sure changes the rigidity. A bit like how you can hammer grooves in one side of sheet metal and end up with a much more rigid structure, like in car panels. This is a fuller created with a swage, which could equally be done with a grinder.
Walter - can you talk about material removal fullers vs forged fullers? Everyone says "lighter weight is one of the benefits of fullers"; but, if you forge the fullers in rather than grinding them in, you're not dropping any weight, rather you're increasing the material density in that area and expanding the billet/blade to some degree(the material from those grooves has to be pushed somewhere). While you aren't dropping weight, you are still strengthening the blade.
Anyway, no one ever talks about the difference in results between a forged fuller and a material removed fuller, but I feel that there's a very important distinction there to those that don't know any better, given that this is rarely clarified, and the results appearing to be the same.
In modern steel, there would be absolutely no difference if the end result has the same dimensions
Hello. Great Instructional video. I am trying to make a slightly wider, and shorter groove on my Marto Version of the, Conan the Barbarian Atlantean Sword that has a 2 edged Blade. To Resemble the Albion Armory Conan Atlantean Sword. The Albion version was made under the Direction of famous Knife and Sword Maker "Jody Samson."
The Albion Sword Resembles the Movie prop sword most out of all versions. But still doesn't look 100% likebthge Movie Prop Sword I am trying to Replicate. In the movie there were 4-6 swords made. The Movie Swords that were made of 440 Stainless steel are identical to the Albion version. But the one version in the scene called "The Resurrection" version is made with the same Molds. But made with Fiberglass. For the fight scenes. My sword/the movie sword is known as a Bastard Sword. The Fiberglass version is cut and Edged to give it an elongated 3 pointed star look. It was in maybe 2 scenes. And is the coolest looking version that made the Conan Atlantean one of the most famous Fantasy movie swords. If not, Thee most Fantasy swords from the Sword & Sorcery movies.
It already Drawn out exactly where the Grooves go, And exactly how they should look, and be placed.
I wanted to ask your advice please.
Would it be possible to use a Dremmel 3000 with a Minariture grinding wheel to slowly work in the Grooves? What I have to mark, are very short. And not wider than 1 1/4 inch.
Could I use the Dremmel with grinder wheel? Then use Dremmel Emery Cloth metal sandind bits. Heavy duty then finish it with a Fine sanding bit. And in the End. Use a buffing bit.
I already used an Engraver to Deepen all the Ruins on the Blade to match the Movie prop. But have been putting off fixing the groove. Because I need to do it right.
Please. I would appreciate your input and Expertise.
How You see this message?
Thank You.
Thank You.
its for strength
Your method of making an incision in the blade of the sword is tiring. There are easier and faster ways, but in fact your work and your explanation are great🇮🇶💐
We call the technique of blood draining -//chiburi
Fullers are a mechanical way for the steel to reduze flexibility. You also luse some height in the blade as resolt.
Ive had this discussion on tangs with bigger is better. Even bringing the i-beam into it. Distal taper, etc. fullers also effect the softer steel vs hardened steel in say a Japanese sword, less bending, springer as I understand
but with a Fuller a blade becomes bloody groovy..... for sure....
You said member.
It is a blood groove! So on impalement don't squirt on you
It’s H beam
They are bloodgrooves. Because if someone call it bloodgroove you see red :D
You have to admit it though blood groove just sounds more bad ass.
james smith I’ve always hated the term and thought people who used it were stupid and trying to sound cool. In other words I completely disagree with you
@@jacoblaszakovits3035 I'm not saying i like the sound nor am i trying to sound cool i don't care what u call it. some people might think it sounds cool that's all i meant.
So the "blood groove" is not there to reduce suction, allowing easier extraction of the blade from a body. Another myth busted.
No, There suction grooves. lol
since flesh is not play dough and closes up you can actually get you blade stuck in someone. the groove allows air to get in there breaking the seal so you can more easilyremove your weapon. it has nothing to do with cleaning or making someone bleed.
Много болтает
Yeah no. Fuller is the tool. Not the groove it makes. You will notice that other blacksmiths (farriers for example) do not call the groove made by a fuller (the tool) a... fuller. Only modern bladesmiths with limited knowledge do this.
It was never called a "blood groove" for any of the speculations you mention. It was called that because blood tends to pool in it. That's it. No benefit outside structure as you mention toward the end
I think you will have difficulty finding any historical reference to this groove being called a "fuller" by bladesmiths
Whoever thinks it’s for blood 🩸 is a weeb
first
All talk, but no proof.