Rabbi Dunner, This is the first time I heard anyone - rabbi or historian - describe the Vilna Goan’s prodigious abilities as a young child, accomplishments described by highly reputable talmidei chachomim, as hagiography. Does this flow from your reluctance to accept as true the statements of the Goan’s sons and others? Are you as suspicious about the description of Mozart’s extraordinary accomplishments as a young boy? How about those of Felix Mendelssohn? Camille Saint-Saens? Or today's Kit Armstrong or Alma Deutscher? He was called the Vilna Gaon for hundreds of years, his genius was heralded by contemporaries, students, even later chassidic talmidei chachomim including the Shoel U'Meishiv and the Kotzker Rebbe. Since his passing, no one assumed the official title as Rav of Vilna out of deference to him. R' Chaim Volozhiner revered him as he would the Rashba; R' Ahron Kotler would give shiurim on a "machlokes" between the Gra and Rishonim. What is the basis for your skepticsm nearly two hundred and fifty years after his passing?
Wolfgang, I think your question has merit. One cannot help but notice a "gushing" (to quote Rabbi Dunner's in his conclusion to his book) tone in Rabbi Dunner's bio of Rav Kook, zt"l. I, too, don't understand why the Rabbi would suggest that the Vilna Goan was a rather simplistic, perhaps even petty, individual who was easily manipulated by "handlers," and whose intellectual stature and impact on the world of Jewish scholarship is exaggerated. My husband, who always enjoyed listening to the Rabbi's shiurim online with me, was similarly taken aback by the Rabbi's video on Rabbi Shach's secret to making an impact on the world of haredim. My husband could not help but surmise that Rabbi Dunner -- who wrote very beautifully about his Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Elefant zt"l -- may not have read the haskamot of the Brisker Rav or Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer, or even learned through most of Avi Ezei, before he argued that Rabbi Shach did not have anything "objectively exceptional" to him.
I have just listened to part of his lecture. So sad unrecognising the brilliance of of a lesser renowned Rabbi. Could you please give me an overview of the reality of the Rabbi as a descendant. My response was 'OY' so therefore you have a link to my details. Shalom 💗
Rabbi Dunner is an intelligent man with a great interest in history. Unfortunately, he has one critical flaw that undermines many of his lectures: he is a great cynic. He seems to believe that since the world around us has unfortunately been poisoned by a massive decline in morality and ethics, and even many of our fellow Charedi Jews (including rabbis) have fallen victim to it, it must be that everyone operates by these rules. Thus, he seems incapable of accepting the notion that there nonetheless remain some individuals who are truly pious and live by the highest ethical standards, and that even today -- let alone in generations past -- there are truly great Gaonim and Tzaddikim, who devote their lives to Torah and Avodas Hashem completely, and have no personal and political motivations in anything they do. Thus, to him, if the late Satmar Rav Zt"l strongly attacked Reb Moshe Feinstein Z"l when he permitted Charedi women to bear children using sperm donated by anonymous donors who were most likely Gentiles, it could not be that he did so because he felt this was a terrible psak and must be vehemently rejected; it must be because he was jealous of Reb Moshe's preeminence as a posek, and thus sought to undermine him so that he himself would be the preeminent posek (I am paraphrasing his claim in another RUclips lecture). Likewise here, since the Gaon was acknowledged as a monumental gaon and holy tzaddik even by the greatest talmidim of the Baal Shem Tov, and since he nevertheless obviously came to a grossly erroneous conclusion regarding Chassidim and their great masters, most other intelligent talmidei chachamim who look objectively at this history have concluded that this is something that cannot be explained by common logic and must instead be viewed as something that was helped along by the Ribbono shel Olam for some reason that He alone saw necessitating this event. By contrast, for Rabbi Dunner, since his underlying assumption is that even the greatest leaders must be motivated by personal and political interests, he sadly concludes that this too was motivated by personal grudges and interests, and then, colored by this distorted assessment, he even ends up foolishly questioning the monumental greatness of the Gaon. And I say all this as a chossid, who comes from purely chassidim on both sides of my heritage.
What of the story where Schneur Zalman of Liadi (founder of Chabad) tried to visit the Vilna Ga’on to try changing his views on Hassidism? The way I heard it, Chabadniks claim that the Vilna Ga’on refused to meet with Schneur Zalman and actually jumped out his window and ran away; but the followers of the Vilna Ga’on claimed that they simply kept missing each other, but either way the meeting never happened. Is there any truth to this story?
Thank you very much, i was looking for a course about the opposition of the Mitnagdim/Sefaradim rabbis and the hassidim ones, is there a longer course somewhere ? 😊 Kol Touv !
As an ardent student of the Gaon, after listening to this enlightening review of his opposition against Chassidism, I draw the following conclusion: that the Gaon in his fierce opposition, did not realize that this ‘change’ ignited by the Chassidim movement in the 18th century, was exactly in line with the very Change that the Gaon predicted to come about in the ‘final hours’ countdown to the Geulah (Final Redemption). He analyzes this change in his book ‘Kol Hator’ which makes the following claims: “The Gaon merited being the light of Mashiach ben Yosef, in order to promote the ingathering of the exiles and to reveal the hints in the Torah regarding the footsteps of the Mashiach ben Yosef.” (Pg 1 last par.) ““The Gaon began revealing secrets of the Torah when he was 20 years old in 5500 [1740], during 'the first hour' of the morning on Friday in the 6th millennium. Then, the spirit of God, the spirit of the Mashiach, began to move in his holy spirit, to uncover mysteries in the Torah little by little in accord with the mission of the first Mashiach. These were revelations of the deep mysteries and profound secrets associated with the footsteps of the Mashiach, and no secret was hidden from him [the Gaon].” (4 Pg. 3). “Generally speaking, the beginning of the Redemption, otherwise known as the footsteps of the Mashiach, began the first hour of Friday morning [the 6th Day] in the 6th millennium, that is the year 5500 [1740], … Beginning with the second hour (i.e., from 5042 [1782]), the entire House of Israel entered the picture, both as a whole, and with regard to each individual member of the nation, as an order from above, of the Mashiach of the beginning of the Redemption.” (last par. Pg. 3). These ‘footsteps’ of the MbY as defined from ‘hints’ in the Torah, foresaw a total CHANGE in the practice of the Faith: “The existence and success of Mashiach ben Yosef depend on the awakening from below…” The Gaon describes this Awakening in great detail, all indicating a change from within the nation. it seems that the Chassidim movement could be part of the Change that the Gaon foresaw during the ‘last hours’, starting from 1740.- but he did not recognize it for what it was when it came along, partly thru Chassidim Movement and he opposed it heavily - just as he predicted that this Change would be opposed. Ref. www.kolhator.com/revelations-on-messiah-ben-yoseph-gaon-2/
Unfortunately I don’t believe that the perspective of the Bal Shem Tov and Magid being a tzadik is understood. I am not even sure that the idea of a Tzadik is understood. The summation that the Vilna Goan changed the course of a tzadik is way off. Tzadik Gozer Hashem mekayem. When you are talking about these Tzadikim ther course could only change from above. As you can see from the outcome Chassidim are great Jews. Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz z’l was a chossid. And endless more. The fact that people can’t understand no problem. But at least understand the perspective of the Chassidim. The Bal Shem tov was a holy Tzadik destined to bring holiness to the Jewish people. Not the Vilna Goan or any one else could have changed that course. And they didn’t.
The auto generated subtitle is garbage. Spirit is One... any religion or doctrine that teaches otherwise is false. I found this presentation to be informative. History should be studied, not mythologized.
If I was not an observant Jew and I listened to a speech from rabbi Dunner I would never consider becoming observant. This is what he brings to the table. Rabbi Dunner is a Maskil and doesn’t even realize it or perhaps he does.........
BS:D - Thank you for the historic facts but we do not agree with your opinion or conclusions. Herem/niduy is a dangerous thing, since the one who pronounces it puts himself in niduy if it's not relevant. So just bringing any idea that the Gaon didn't know exactly was he was doing or that he wasn't well informed is a insult to the level of torah and ruah hakodeh that he achieved. He knew exactly what he was doing and the consequences of these 3 herems. He didn't want to talk to Z of Liadi because we do not even talk with the snake which uses the letter to create evil things. That's why in the laws of niduy/herem it's not allowed to talk or teach/learn torah with a person in niduy/herem, only the mininum needed. The Gaon knew he was dealing with a plan of satan (maasee Satan) and that these hassidims by essence where his puppets. The idea of the tzadik that defends breslev or the rebbe that reveres other sects of avoda zara of the chassidims, is exactly the avoda zara of the golden calf. Same way the erev rav needed a replacement for moshe rabbenu right away as an intermediary all these hassidims are in the same exact avoda zara of the golden calf. The gaon said about them in his 3rd herem, (i translate, This is your G.d Israel) the sentence said by the 2 sons of bilaam who as the head of the erev rav did the golden calf. So the Gaon told us all these hassidims are the erev rav, some are real erev rav and others are jewish souls imprisoned in the klipat noga. What the Gaon was afraid of happened exactly as he saw it coming. All hassiduts are avoda zara without any single doubt. So much to write but at the end, who learned the laws of Niduy (rambam or shulhan aruch) understands that these 3 herems are still in effect (no one releases them, like his student r.haim of volozhin could have done it but he didn't) CONCLUSION: herems are still in place and whoever violates these herems will have to give the din about this and more: whoever sees himself as a talmid of all of them (baal Shem tov, magid, tanya,nachman,.....) is also automatically in herem/niduy in shamayim. And whoever doesn't understand this is not a rav, not a T"H ( sholar) and falls in the same pit of the sitra ahara (golden calf). why are we still in galut ? this is one the biggest reason why ! we are perpetrating every day the sin of the golden calf. All books of hassidut must be burned and all the terms of the herem MUST be observed. NO contact with hassidim they have a din of apikorsims and muhramims. Don't even think about violating these herems (whatever excuses the satan will put in their mouth). Should anyone has a proof that the herem was removed, provide it. Else, and we all know it, we need to stay away from these apikorsims.
Rabbi Dunner's history lectures are absolutely brilliant! Yasher Koach and please keep them coming!
Rabbi Dunner,
This is the first time I heard anyone - rabbi or historian - describe the Vilna Goan’s prodigious abilities as a young child, accomplishments described by highly reputable talmidei chachomim, as hagiography. Does this flow from your reluctance to accept as true the statements of the Goan’s sons and others? Are you as suspicious about the description of Mozart’s extraordinary accomplishments as a young boy? How about those of Felix Mendelssohn? Camille Saint-Saens? Or today's Kit Armstrong or Alma Deutscher?
He was called the Vilna Gaon for hundreds of years, his genius was heralded by contemporaries, students, even later chassidic talmidei chachomim including the Shoel U'Meishiv and the Kotzker Rebbe. Since his passing, no one assumed the official title as Rav of Vilna out of deference to him. R' Chaim Volozhiner revered him as he would the Rashba; R' Ahron Kotler would give shiurim on a "machlokes" between the Gra and Rishonim. What is the basis for your skepticsm nearly two hundred and fifty years after his passing?
Wolfgang,
I think your question has merit. One cannot help but notice a "gushing" (to quote Rabbi Dunner's in his conclusion to his book) tone in Rabbi Dunner's bio of Rav Kook, zt"l. I, too, don't understand why the Rabbi would suggest that the Vilna Goan was a rather simplistic, perhaps even petty, individual who was easily manipulated by "handlers," and whose intellectual stature and impact on the world of Jewish scholarship is exaggerated. My husband, who always enjoyed listening to the Rabbi's shiurim online with me, was similarly taken aback by the Rabbi's video on Rabbi Shach's secret to making an impact on the world of haredim. My husband could not help but surmise that Rabbi Dunner -- who wrote very beautifully about his Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Elefant zt"l -- may not have read the haskamot of the Brisker Rav or Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer, or even learned through most of Avi Ezei, before he argued that Rabbi Shach did not have anything "objectively exceptional" to him.
I am a direct grandchild of the Vilna Gaon..I take offense to this piece..Just reading the intro above was enough to make me not want to listen....
He never responds. He will not defend his prejudices.
I have just listened to part of his lecture. So sad unrecognising the brilliance of of a lesser renowned Rabbi.
Could you please give me an overview of the reality of the Rabbi as a descendant.
My response was 'OY' so therefore you have a link to my details.
Shalom 💗
Great comment !!!
Rabbi Dunner is an intelligent man with a great interest in history. Unfortunately, he has one critical flaw that undermines many of his lectures: he is a great cynic. He seems to believe that since the world around us has unfortunately been poisoned by a massive decline in morality and ethics, and even many of our fellow Charedi Jews (including rabbis) have fallen victim to it, it must be that everyone operates by these rules. Thus, he seems incapable of accepting the notion that there nonetheless remain some individuals who are truly pious and live by the highest ethical standards, and that even today -- let alone in generations past -- there are truly great Gaonim and Tzaddikim, who devote their lives to Torah and Avodas Hashem completely, and have no personal and political motivations in anything they do. Thus, to him, if the late Satmar Rav Zt"l strongly attacked Reb Moshe Feinstein Z"l when he permitted Charedi women to bear children using sperm donated by anonymous donors who were most likely Gentiles, it could not be that he did so because he felt this was a terrible psak and must be vehemently rejected; it must be because he was jealous of Reb Moshe's preeminence as a posek, and thus sought to undermine him so that he himself would be the preeminent posek (I am paraphrasing his claim in another RUclips lecture).
Likewise here, since the Gaon was acknowledged as a monumental gaon and holy tzaddik even by the greatest talmidim of the Baal Shem Tov, and since he nevertheless obviously came to a grossly erroneous conclusion regarding Chassidim and their great masters, most other intelligent talmidei chachamim who look objectively at this history have concluded that this is something that cannot be explained by common logic and must instead be viewed as something that was helped along by the Ribbono shel Olam for some reason that He alone saw necessitating this event. By contrast, for Rabbi Dunner, since his underlying assumption is that even the greatest leaders must be motivated by personal and political interests, he sadly concludes that this too was motivated by personal grudges and interests, and then, colored by this distorted assessment, he even ends up foolishly questioning the monumental greatness of the Gaon. And I say all this as a chossid, who comes from purely chassidim on both sides of my heritage.
What of the story where Schneur Zalman of Liadi (founder of Chabad) tried to visit the Vilna Ga’on to try changing his views on Hassidism? The way I heard it, Chabadniks claim that the Vilna Ga’on refused to meet with Schneur Zalman and actually jumped out his window and ran away; but the followers of the Vilna Ga’on claimed that they simply kept missing each other, but either way the meeting never happened. Is there any truth to this story?
Thank you very much, i was looking for a course about the opposition of the Mitnagdim/Sefaradim rabbis and the hassidim ones, is there a longer course somewhere ? 😊
Kol Touv !
As an ardent student of the Gaon, after listening to this enlightening review of his opposition against Chassidism, I draw the following conclusion: that the Gaon in his fierce opposition, did not realize that this ‘change’ ignited by the Chassidim movement in the 18th century, was exactly in line with the very Change that the Gaon predicted to come about in the ‘final hours’ countdown to the Geulah (Final Redemption). He analyzes this change in his book ‘Kol Hator’ which makes the following claims: “The Gaon merited being the light of Mashiach ben Yosef, in order to promote the ingathering of the exiles and to reveal the hints in the Torah regarding the footsteps of the Mashiach ben Yosef.” (Pg 1 last par.) ““The Gaon began revealing secrets of the Torah when he was 20 years old in 5500 [1740], during 'the first hour' of the morning on Friday in the 6th millennium. Then, the spirit of God, the spirit of the Mashiach, began to move in his holy spirit, to uncover mysteries in the Torah little by little in accord with the mission of the first Mashiach. These were revelations of the deep mysteries and profound secrets associated with the footsteps of the Mashiach, and no secret was hidden from him [the Gaon].” (4 Pg. 3). “Generally speaking, the beginning of the Redemption, otherwise known as the footsteps of the Mashiach, began the first hour of Friday morning [the 6th Day] in the 6th millennium, that is the year 5500 [1740], … Beginning with the second hour (i.e., from 5042 [1782]), the entire House of Israel entered the picture, both as a whole, and with regard to each individual member of the nation, as an order from above, of the Mashiach of the beginning of the Redemption.” (last par. Pg. 3). These ‘footsteps’ of the MbY as defined from ‘hints’ in the Torah, foresaw a total CHANGE in the practice of the Faith: “The existence and success of Mashiach ben Yosef depend on the awakening from below…” The Gaon describes this Awakening in great detail, all indicating a change from within the nation. it seems that the Chassidim movement could be part of the Change that the Gaon foresaw during the ‘last hours’, starting from 1740.- but he did not recognize it for what it was when it came along, partly thru Chassidim Movement and he opposed it heavily - just as he predicted that this Change would be opposed. Ref. www.kolhator.com/revelations-on-messiah-ben-yoseph-gaon-2/
You are obviously a fine ben Torah. However, what you wrote is not history but a series of religious rationalizations.
@@liamsandal6360wrong, go learn real history. You... Liam sandal
@@moshebenamram6020 Please specify what I'm getting wrong.
Unfortunately I don’t believe that the perspective of the Bal Shem Tov and Magid being a tzadik is understood. I am not even sure that the idea of a Tzadik is understood. The summation that the Vilna Goan changed the course of a tzadik is way off. Tzadik Gozer Hashem mekayem. When you are talking about these Tzadikim ther course could only change from above. As you can see from the outcome Chassidim are great Jews. Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz z’l was a chossid. And endless more. The fact that people can’t understand no problem. But at least understand the perspective of the Chassidim. The Bal Shem tov was a holy Tzadik destined to bring holiness to the Jewish people. Not the Vilna Goan or any one else could have changed that course. And they didn’t.
MsRhuby was here February 7, 2023
46:07
the auto generated subtitler calls the Vilna Gaon a hooligan
The auto generated subtitle is garbage. Spirit is One... any religion or doctrine that teaches otherwise is false. I found this presentation to be informative. History should be studied, not mythologized.
@@PaulaGem i wasnt chas veshalom suggesting that i agree with the subtitler
"Hasidem but I don't wanna be dem" - Vila Gaon
If I was not an observant Jew and I
listened to a speech from rabbi Dunner
I would never consider becoming observant.
This is what he brings to the table. Rabbi
Dunner is a Maskil and doesn’t even realize
it or perhaps he does.........
Shut up and go make potato kugel
Pini pay attention! You’re playing with fire !
BS:D - Thank you for the historic facts but we do not agree with your opinion or conclusions. Herem/niduy is a dangerous thing, since the one who pronounces it puts himself in niduy if it's not relevant. So just bringing any idea that the Gaon didn't know exactly was he was doing or that he wasn't well informed is a insult to the level of torah and ruah hakodeh that he achieved. He knew exactly what he was doing and the consequences of these 3 herems. He didn't want to talk to Z of Liadi because we do not even talk with the snake which uses the letter to create evil things. That's why in the laws of niduy/herem it's not allowed to talk or teach/learn torah with a person in niduy/herem, only the mininum needed. The Gaon knew he was dealing with a plan of satan (maasee Satan) and that these hassidims by essence where his puppets. The idea of the tzadik that defends breslev or the rebbe that reveres other sects of avoda zara of the chassidims, is exactly the avoda zara of the golden calf. Same way the erev rav needed a replacement for moshe rabbenu right away as an intermediary all these hassidims are in the same exact avoda zara of the golden calf. The gaon said about them in his 3rd herem, (i translate, This is your G.d Israel) the sentence said by the 2 sons of bilaam who as the head of the erev rav did the golden calf. So the Gaon told us all these hassidims are the erev rav, some are real erev rav and others are jewish souls imprisoned in the klipat noga. What the Gaon was afraid of happened exactly as he saw it coming. All hassiduts are avoda zara without any single doubt. So much to write but at the end, who learned the laws of Niduy (rambam or shulhan aruch) understands that these 3 herems are still in effect (no one releases them, like his student r.haim of volozhin could have done it but he didn't) CONCLUSION: herems are still in place and whoever violates these herems will have to give the din about this and more: whoever sees himself as a talmid of all of them (baal Shem tov, magid, tanya,nachman,.....) is also automatically in herem/niduy in shamayim. And whoever doesn't understand this is not a rav, not a T"H ( sholar) and falls in the same pit of the sitra ahara (golden calf). why are we still in galut ? this is one the biggest reason why ! we are perpetrating every day the sin of the golden calf. All books of hassidut must be burned and all the terms of the herem MUST be observed. NO contact with hassidim they have a din of apikorsims and muhramims. Don't even think about violating these herems (whatever excuses the satan will put in their mouth). Should anyone has a proof that the herem was removed, provide it. Else, and we all know it, we need to stay away from these apikorsims.
Very bad audio
Oy
What chutzpa! Hagiography indeed!
OY