Lacrosse sticks as weapons. A baseless theory.
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- A theory based on very little.
A commenter tells me the story is Ho-Chunk. Thank you much. The comment is pinned.
Yesterday's video.
• The social role of lac...
My crummy sling test.
• Lacrosse stick vs sling.
So glad you’re covering this topic! The story of Turtle you’re referencing is from the Ho Chunk people. Ho Chunk use a different kind of stick we in the area (I’m Ojibwe from the same area) refer to as a Great Lakes style stick. It has a head that is round and closed. This style has a very strong head which is often used as the main point for striking opposing player’s sticks or bodies though as you said strikes to the head are not encouraged.
Great Lakes lacrosse is also a one handed game more than a two handed game though people often use two hands to throw the ball, most catching, cradling and scooping up of the ball is done one handed. I’ve thought for some time this might be useful in war club training as the Ojibwe word for war club can also mean lacrosse stick.
One other quick thought I had was that the historical Iroquoian stick had a much larger pocket with the leather attaching almost half way down the stick and it even lacked the gut wall to make the modern pocket. Additionally those older sticks would sometimes have a hook at the end of the crooked head of the stick where you could hook and tear your opponent’s leathers (this fell out of use as the pocket got smaller and took its more modern shape). So possibly this could have impacted how it may have been useful for weapon training? Just guessing though.
Thank you so much, I spent so long trying to find that online.
That's very interesting about the Ojibwe word for war club, I hadn't heard that.
Glad to help! Two places to learn more on that particular story are the works on lacrosse by Thomas Vennum and the Encyclopedia of Hočak (Winnebago) Mythology which is a really comprehensive site of Ho Chunk mythology.
@@mishtadim1 Thank you, that's very useful.
Only knew it from some little nameless book of stories I got from the library ten years ago.
I keep thinking of more on this topic so let me add a bit. First the book I mentioned is Lacrosse Legends by Thomas Vennum.
The name for a war club in Ojibwe is bagamaagan which can mean lacrosse stick or even drum stick but the more common word for a lacrosse stick is baaga’adowewaan.
I remembered a story a friend of mine shared from when he was growing up in Constance Lake First Nation. He shared that his father would tell him that long ago when a really serious issue came up a lacrosse game would be played with bone breaker sticks which were made out of iron wood and were heavier than the usual light ash sticks. You could also see a Moose Jaw tied to one of these to really make it effective. This is just an anecdote but that’s how so much of the knowledge can be (as you know!).
So, you say ashwood is usual and Ironwood is for serious issues, that is a very interesting tidbit. On Six Nations ash sticks are considered to be practice sticks, the professionals prefer ones being made from denser hickory.
In the Vinland sagas they also describe the Scraelings as holding some circular device up on a pole which made a loud noise and frightened the Norsemen, this sounds to me like the effect produced by a bullroarer, possibly something like a staff-sling where a projectile is loaded in and swung around before being launched, making a loud vibrating sound before if gets thrown
I'd personally say that Lacrosse sticks have more in common with Staff-slings than they do with slings. The actual throwing motion with lacrosse and staff-slings seem pretty much the same to me. If Lacrosse were used as weapons, It is highly likely they would have operated on the same principal. That is, throwing big rocks, scaringly big rocks!
I get you.
I forgot about staff slings. Seems to be almost the same thing in principle. The ability to catch, and thus block, gives the lacrosse stick some advantage.
Mi'kmaq have a legend recorded in Wallis & Wallis (1955, p.356) The Micmac Indians of Eastern Canada on a pre-rawhide net technology lacrosse stick being used for hunting small game and against people. It was attributed as a favourite weapon of a specific group of little people: "they hunted a small stick a foot and a half in length. This was bent through a crotched stick [the shape of the letter Y], and the ends were tied fast with thongs. A small stone was laid on this stick and shot from it. They could kill gulls with it, and it would kill a man if the stone struck him in the head.
Hey thank you, That sounds very useful, I'll look into it.
We have something like that in Germany. Or had. By the time of my grandfather's childhood, it was only a toy, like bow and arrow was only a toy in the 50s. Called Steinschleuder (stone thrower). The same name used for slings and catapults. It was a stick, split at one end. Put a bit of wood into the slit to have it open. Bind it so that it will not split further.
Place a stone in the slit and than throw it.
That's all. My grandfather told me that some boys used it to throw stones really far.
There were some two-handed slings depicted in medieval art. They might have only been used for 'blind shooting' over a castle wall.
I gotta say, this is a pretty compelling argument all around. Using a sling well is no mean feat and takes serious time to learn. Not to mention, larger stones are not only more difficult to work with but you have to post up to throw 'em and they're dangerous to the thrower's side if you're not careful. The lacrosse stick on the other hand functions like an extension of the arm, you can scoop up rocks (even big ones) while standing or on the move and continue pelting your adversary without squaring up or having to spin up a sling. Starting out with a wave of large rocks flung from sticks would be a great way to thin out and scatter an enemy line, even if most of them switch weapons as they close. Combine that with its use as a backup melee weapon and it sounds better to me.
reminds me of a staff sling with defensive capabilities! Imagine besieging an enemies village and being well trained in slinging stones with these, defenders would have to build rooves to defend against the rain of hell!
Maybe it was invented as a weapon, then quickly made obsolete in warfare by the realization that you can just use the same tool to catch the rock and throw it back.
There appears to be a lot of variation across cultures in stick design. The modern lacrosse stick is similar to the Iroquoian stick, but other nation's variations used much larger nets, smaller nets, no nets, shorter sticks, a stick in each hand, etc. A one-handed stick would be more similar to an atlatl. The two-handed sticks obviously bear more similarity to staff slings. It's entirely likely there was some sort of earlier stone throwing stick that was used for recreation that evolved into the lacrosse stick, and it might have had hunting or martial applications. We'll probably never know, but obviously they had the ability to create such a device.
Just did some digging about the saga "sling" reference. The word used in Eiríks saga rauða (chapter 11) is valslöngur which google directly translated as "roller hoses" but if you split it into "vals" and "löngur" you get "waltz length." "Waltz" means "roll" in German. So valslöngur could be rendered "revolving length." But length of what? It would seem to better suit a whirling sling than a la cross stick. But regardless, the story you told of Turtle does indicate that people were aware of the lethal potential of launching stones from a la cross stick.
That’s the problem with working from translations. You never know how much to trust the translator.
"valslöngur" in modern Icelandic translates as anything from a hand held slingshot to a Trebuchet.
@@TheIclandicViking Oy, vey. There really isn't much point in Anglophones trying to interpret something like that when so much relies on linguistic nuance.
I would suspect that hand slings are involved here. I have never heard of or seen any sources mentioning staff-slings in use in the entirety of South or North America. (If you have, please let me know)
What little extant artefacts there are in the entirety of North America/Canada/Alaska etcetera, they are from hand slings (Staff slings generally have a significant pouch size in relation to hand slings). Most suspected 'sling-stone' finds also tend to be within the range you would expect out of hand slings. Staff slings optimally use stones in the ~500-1000+ gram range... which isn't an optimal slinging weight unless you're a crazy slinger from the Balearic isles. Staff slings have the potential to be significantly powerful but they are pretty much only useful in warfare, their projectiles just aren't convenient to carry around for any shepherd and they are far-too overkill for waterfowl or squirrel/small game hunting. So this would be a limiting factor on their usage. With stones or clay projectiles massing about 40-80 grams (Which are very common weights in slingstone finds pretty much everywhere), you can pretty much fit ~10-20 projectiles in a pouch, whilst staff-sling projectiles are more orange-sized and upwards.
This doesn't mean they didn't exist, there just isn't any evidence that I've seen to support their usage. It's braided cordage and a stick, practically anyone could make one and work out their usage given a few days of trial and error.
@@MalcolmPL if i am remembering the saga correctly my best interpretation would be hand slings or staff-slings.
it has been 20 years since i learned this in school, so take that with a pinch of salt.
eddit: hand slings would be slöngva(singular)/slöngvur(multiple)
staff-slings could be translated as Valslöngva(singular)/Valslöngvur(multiple)
but Valslöngva usually refers to rock a thrower with an external/mechanical power source
I live your self deprecating sense of humor. I don’t know anything about lacross, but I wouldn’t want to get hit with that thing. I will say though. I used to carry a sling with me in my pocket on a daily basis and played with when I had free time. You can definitely club somebody with a loaded one. The rock or bullet falls out about every 4th time you do though.
First of all, thank you for your videos. This one has really peaked my interest as to the origin of Lacrosse. I had always assumed that it originated from children playing a game of keep "away" and as they played some devised a way to improve their ability to keep away by creating "us against them" teams. Sticks were an improvement to the game to make it easier to defend the ball and then finally someone added a "scoop" at the end to steal or even run with and pass the ball. This sounds very evolutionary but that is how kids games develop.
As the children evolve the game adults take notice and make side bets on which team will win. As the adults bet more they encourage older kids to play so they can improve their odds of winning. This competition turns into serious money for the people and continues into what we know today to be the sport Lacrosse. My speculation alone. It's just what I have always imagined happened. I do like your thought process though and completely have to admit that now you have me thinking in a different direction. Once again, thank you for your videos!
That's totally plausible.
Good analysis Malcolm. I never thought about catching enemy projectiles (not very familiar with lacrosse) but that makes good sense to me. I have competed in and officiated with javelin and archery. Its pretty easy to move out of the way of a javelin and even arrows can be avoided if you're paying attention and not too close :) Soooo I imagine if one is skilled and the rock is coming at you then catching it makes sense. I have trained in quite a few martial arts, initial I trained for self defence and supposedly I was learning deadly stuff. However I discovered that people who competed in sports versions of those martial arts were better in a fight. They knew better what worked and what didnt and whilst their knowledge was lesser their ability to do what they knew was far greater. So it seems that Lacrosse, (whilst still a pretty tough sport) would encourage warriors to do amazing things with little risk that made them highly skilled in battle. I just watched a bit of Lacrosse, the pushing and shoving and getting the ball off the ground ..... I could see these people as anti sling fighters. Run into the slingers ranks (who will be spaced, cos, they have to be). Fling rocks at them and just keep scooping rocks off the ground and hitting them again, all whilst running around in circles making it almost impossible for a slinger to get a shot off. Fun for the whole family :)
I would think it’s application more for hand eye coordination and like you mentioned earlier putting yourself in the right place at the right time
Sure, that’s what can be proven.
I think that the game we call stick ball...the old ones also called the little brother of war...was like you say to teach war skills but I think it more to get into shape endurance aggressiveness but like you says stick checks can break bone but you get many bruises...in fighting we do a thing called body hardening...to toughen the body against blows I think this game also does much for body hardening..after much play you get tougher and you don't bruise as easy that you can still be effective in war after taking many hits
Yeah, I guess so, I hadn't thought of that.
This is it in my opinion. Most the important skills for war aren't weapon related. FItness, conditioning, team work, adapting to changing situations are all very important. Otherwise your weapon isn't going to be of much help to you. Targets don't hit(or shoot) back, they don't move around and they don't counter attack.
Staffsling Perhaps?
I enjoyed you sharing your surmise and your evidences. Thank you.😀
You’re welcome.
What about junior warriors in the second rank, slinging stones/returning fire while experienced Frontline troops advanced with the safety of their back shields? Romans used a similar strategy, but three lines. 1st line was strong and capable, 2nd was young and ready, 3rd line was experienced and ready to die.
A very interesting bit of speculation. I also wonder if they might be used in assaults and sieges against the walled settlements for handling and launching burning coals or pitch into wooden forts. Soaked in water, the the fibers could be resistant to the heat of coals which could be carried and then tossed, catapult style.
Incidentally, I did see a newspaper cutting online that mentioned some Canadian madlads in WW1 using lacrosse sticks to improve the range and accuracy of their grenades.
They may as well have been devices effective in chasing off for example wolfs and coyotes. When it comes to hunting small fur animals they may be very effective as well, because it is of matter to don't destroy the hide
Agree that it sounds entirely plausible-especially tied into the Viking account of the “catapult”-would be difficult for them to interpret such an alien weapon without relating it to what was previously known to them.
The combination ranged/close combat weapon is a potent idea. There are a couple of accounts from DeSoto’s violent march through the southeast North America where natives used their bows as clubs to beat Spaniards senseless when things closed to close quarters. And wooden warclubs definitely co-existed with strong wooden bows yet the bows were apparently used as bludgeons.
Yeah, I'm always baffled when I read things like that, knowing how easy it is to wreck a bow.
@@MalcolmPL same-must have been some very stout bows
did the vikings have staff slings? i know medievals did.
But as a sidenote, the verbiage of catapult could have been used with no embellishment ment. or some equivolent Norse word. as catapult just means “down hurler”, so potentially could mean anything using a catapulting action rather than necissarily being a seige weapon in size.
Same as the word missile. nowadays we use it almost exclusively for rocket propelled projectiles, but historically it could mean any ranged ammunition from arrows to slinging bullets.
@@MalcolmPL Same here, Maybe an English war bow would be strong enough but thats about it.
@@midshipman8654 Depends what word the Vikings actually used. Pretty sure Kata (down) was Greek and then the Romans called it Catapulta, its definitely not a Scandinavian word and they probably didnt know the entomology, however they may well have used the word catapult. There were hand cannons, so a hand catapult isnt out of the question as being a reasonable description.
or it's for hunting. slings were commonly used for hunting and warfare, but after cultures developed the bow the mainly became tools for hunting. and a lacrosse stick is more accurate and powerful then a sling making a pretty dang good hunting implement for small game.
I've always thought that too. I mean it kind of makes a lot of sense it's basically like a transportable mini catapult omong the simplest but most mobile form there is. or you can at least cross the ideas between an atlatl and a sling and then you get a different version of a Shepherd sling with a staff.... But instead of a sling with a puch you have part you have built into the staff.... a net to catch and to throw hard projectiles like stones that will fit in it.
Using Stones as projectiles it seems a lot more economical cuz you can pick them up off the ground a fair amount of the time and if not mistaken you don't necessarily have to pick them up in the heat of the moment if you're good at what you're doing and just aim and launch. Cheep for skirmishes. This might have been more common practice when native American settlements in the Eastern woodland Mississippi and region had bigger walled off (wooden wallets or pickets) communities and towns and small cities.
I also must admit I guess it also depends on which variant of the lacrosse stick we are talking about 😕😅 many different variants I'm guessing some are more soundly constructed than others. And others specifically built for sport and only sport. If that makes sense. Just my own observations and thoughts.
It would certainly make a lot of sense in a defensive scenario, you’ve already got them to hand and they can throw anything.
your theory seems pretty logical too me, it reminds me of the staff slings wich where used in medival times, i have made ode myself ( a pretty shitty one) and while it doesnt seem as deadly as a bow and arrow i was able too throw big stones pretty far with it.
So i can see that there might have been a place for it in some situations
I played rep lacrosse and traveled all over ontario, playing six nations kids was our biggest nightmare they always crushed us! I dont think the stick was ever supposed to represent a weapon or train actual fighting techniques directly. I think it was all about training hand eye coordination and working as a team the ability to trust the hands of the person beside you is a super power in it self. I think it was all about dexterity not actually fighting.
The loader can be very fast and the thrower has no special thing to do... Loaders can be small children.. just place a rock in the net pouch.
A line of strong throwers can surely make rocks rain on a stuck/slowed down troop in a 'fatal funnel'.
Also, the more range, the more accuracy is critical. Meaning all sorts of things from projectile calibration to range estimation etc.
One advantage I see is less risk of shoulder injury compared to hand throwing rocks at the same range. Even more so if the stones are 'kinda heavy'. And less fatigue.
In short, slings are less versatile and more difficult to use accurately.
On the subject of versatility, lacrosse sticks are designed to be used while sprinting, while slingers tend to be still.
@@MalcolmPL Yep.
Plus a sling is well.. a string. Anything 'snag' on it and the function is killed. But a stick can ignore to a degree small branches for example. More so if the basket is small and round and with minimal netting (the old models).
Slings do require skilled users in order to be effective, which is why they are primarily selected from amongst a generally shepherding populace. Bows were a lot more common in North America, whilst slings were fairly dominant in parts of South America, especially near Peru and the Andes (Their slings along with Tibetan slings are some of the most visually striking and beautiful slings in the world).
It was much more mixed in Mesoamerica, with spear-throwers, slings and bows all being used. The Spanish had a lot of apprehension about the Aztec slings given that their armour could protect against arrows and darts, but slings could still cause some serious damage. (It should be noted that the Spanish weren't all wearing plate armour, a significant portion wore native cotton armour)
Staff slings require two hands for use which restricts the usage of shields, more so than with bows (Which are rare, but possible) because the movement of the staff sling is entirely vertical. It is very possible to use a sling in conjunction with a shield, even actively so, which is a potential benefit. You would ideally want to be behind someone when lobbing your stones or behind a wall or obstacle that can provide some protection when using a staff-sling.
Regarding snagging with slings, particularly with brush or tall grasses, you can minimize this by using a short sling. It can limit range but a skilled user could still throw stones out to ~70-100 metres without much difficulty. With a sling, you can run all you like. It's putting it to use when you have to be stationary. If you are going to use a sling, you want to be still or doing a 'step-in' when you are going in for the throw. If you are moving when using a sling, you are effectively taking a lot of power out of the throw because you are only going to use the arm and not the hips or feet for power generation, which gives you most of your power in the throw. The result is piss-poor performance.
Yeah, the risk of shoulder injury is a possibility with hand slings. I've certainly hurt my shoulder when throwing out of my 'comfort zone' of ~40-200 grams. Seems that it's primarily the crazy Balearic islanders that like throwing huge stones consistently.
@@thejackinati2759 You forgot the blowguns.
Never thought of it but you definitely could kill small game with a lacrosse stick/projectile ,accuracy is extremely high & definitely could incapacitate or kill your enemy, you certainly wouldn't want dozens of people chucking rocks at you at high rates of speed pretty sure it would hurt a little bit
Probably became a ceremonial game when bows became the dominant weapon thousands of years ago, but still used for hunting and warfare when needed hence the necessity of the games
I imagine that if you covered a suitable stone in tar and tinder or put tar and tinder into a fragile clay pot, then light it on fire. Either could be thrown pretty far and would be devastating to an enemy longhouse from outside their stockade.
I don’t think a clay pot would be economical, given the firing process back in the day. But the stone might work, you’d just need to come up with a method of protecting your stick.
@@MalcolmPL Having thrown and fired a lot of pots, I think that making a crappy one just hardened in a fire would not be that difficult. Making a good one that holds water and can be used for cooking is tricky, especially firing it properly in an open fire. Making a single use pot that just keeps the coals from blowing out would not be.
@@leoscheibelhut940 I'm not going to argue, but remember that pottery techniques were different back in the day.
Just found your channle a couple days ago due to the wood armor. I thought this was always common sense.
It's similar to a staff sling just a slight diffrence. It fills the same role does it not? It's an artilery system. Never heard of the nonsense that it's not a weapon system. It should be self evident just looking at it.
Question on a related topic: do you have any insights on how Iroquois traveled on foot long distances? Did they use backpacks, pouches, food they would have brought with them, did they only use natural shelters or did they carry animal skins. I find this subject very underserved and lost to common knowledge. Any info you might recommend would be appreciated
There were backpacks made from a woven ash basket on a wooden frame. For heavier loads travois pulled by dogs were used, or toboggans in winter. Cloth or leather bags could be strapped to the frame of the travois.
Pemmican was used as travel food. It keeps for a long time and you can live off it alone indefinitely.
One night shelters were made from conifer branches and dead fall, the sort of thing boy scouts build in the park. Long term shelters were made from bark, like a wigwam but smaller.
@@MalcolmPL thanks!
I would not want to be goalie in a game or rock lacrosse
Turtle was an filthy cheater! 😲
Based on my single experience with fire arrows, speed is the key to not damaging your equipment.
Yeah, but we're talking about putting something covered with tar into a net.
@@MalcolmPL In the case of a pot, the tar and coals would go inside the pot, which could then be thrown. If a tar and tinder covered stone is used, yes it would most likely transfer hot tar and flames to the lacrosse stick and wreck it.
Fustibale? (Staff sling for throwing larger rocks)
Also, could it double as a bag for gathering larger fruits, from a tree, pine cones, or even vegetables?
A longer handle makes for a trekking pole for walking over rougher terrain
Thank you
You’re welcome.
If it wasn't intended to be used as a weapon it certainly can be.
Kinda want to add a spike to the end of it and see how it does. rock projectiles, melee as a short spear or, and used as a javelin.
It would be a crummy javelin.
Ever consider a staff sling when they mention a catapult in the sagas?
Also cant find your sling video.
How much has the lacrosse stick changed over the centuries? Is it possible the head was stronger inthe oast? I've heard something about some tribes using single handed sticks, s that true? If so thats more like a war club.
From the Saga of Erik the Red:
"And early one morning, as they looked around, they beheld nine canoes made of hides, and snout-like staves were being brandished from the boats, and they made a noise like flails, and twisted round in the direction of the sun's motion."
And later:
"They encountered one another and fought, and there was a great shower of missiles. The Skrælingar had also war-slings, or catapults.
Then Karlsefni and Snorri see that the Skrælingar are bringing up poles, with a very large ball attached to each, to be compared in size to a sheep's stomach, dark in colour; and these flew over Karlsefni's company towards the land, and when they came down they struck the ground with a hideous noise."
It certainly makes it sound like the natives had something the vikings had no frame of reference for. I have no earthly idea what those noise grenades might've been.
On the other hand, it's impossible to know how much of what the author says can be trusted. This is the same saga where a woman's dead husband tells her to bury him in a church graveyard.
Yep.
Staff slings exist I'm not saying ur thoery doesn't have potential but in everything ur say I feel like ur forgetting a staff sling now that's how it feels to me based of presentation
Staff slings existed in the Old World. I don't know of any American reference to them.
Alaskan Inuit used them, but I don’t know of anywhere else.
Idk about catching a rock I wouldn't risk the basket braking but I was wondering wen I first used a sling y can't u use a lacrosse staff and u could add a iron tip at end to more force or some other thing
Well, no iron in period.
Love the videos! Look forward to each one! Are you on any other social media?
Nope.
Sounds like it is time, to do some 'living history' research. Get yourself or your families best players, and teat the stick with a rock against something resembleing a ballistic gell zombie torso 😅😅