F1 Pneumatic Valve Spring - A Closer Look - Ep 1
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- Опубликовано: 6 май 2021
- The First of a New Formula One Technical Series where I take a Closer look at the F1 Pneumatic Valve Spring Part. All Videos based on my F1 technical articles as seen online.
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@Brian Garvey THANK YOU for this! As a life long gear head, retired aircraft mech, and many year F1 fan, these videos of yours are the equivalent of finding a treasure!
The F1 world is so secretive very few ever get to see this stuff and to me your videos and posts on F1 Technical are an absolute goldmine!!!
Thanks John. Making videos is very new to me...its different speaking to yourself vs a crowd but hopefully I'll improve :) . I spent many years trying to find out what the videos contain and got many shut doors, so buying an engine was the only way to blow the covers off everything! Speak soon, B.
@@EngineeredtoWin Sir, I'm not at all worried about "youtube production quality"! It's what's in the content and video quality so I can see what's going on clearly that matters to me. You are doing an amazing job explaining these things at least to me anyway.
Most of this material is well beyond the casual viewers level anyway (no offense casual viewers) which is why you don't have 80M views.
I got your first vid link from F1 Technical and will watch all your videos plus tell the few buddies I have that are nerds like me about your channel.
I am truly grateful for your contribution and would enjoy sharing a few p's and q's with you if our paths ever cross! I'm in the US
I heard of air valve springs many years ago and always wondered if these were real or fiction. Thank you for showing us this as air springs seem to be real.
You're welcome Mike, thanks for the comment.
Thank you so very much for sharing.
I have been so very interested in these topics for decades.
I have only been exposed to text with no hands on, no images.
Revealing this wonderful world brings me such joy.
I’m surprised that those little finger followers can handle the pressure and rpms without failure. Awesome video thanks for taking the time to explain the valve train.
Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge these vids don’t make themselves and your knowledge isn’t given to you. ❤
Thanks, I’ve wondered for years how that works brilliant thanks.
Utterly fascinating. I'm glad that you popped-up on The Engine Pron page. I'd have never found this, otherwise.
Another post just gone up there now! Enjoy and thanks for the sub! Brian,
Thank you so much for sharing these F1 parts. Just love to the engineering that is capable when money is not a question. Love this, Keep it up!!!!!!
I am so fuckin excited that you have a youtube channel, your F1technical posts are so damn good I had to do a search to see if you had any other sources 👍
Thanks very much for this...I've always wanted to see the inner workings of F1 engines. Another example of a relatively simple concept that is incredibly difficult to execute.
Thanks for the comment Cliff...I'm like yourself and very much after the fine details. Many RUclipsrs and F1 Tech bloggers breeze over so many critical details simply because they don't have the actual parts, hopefully these videos will help to fill in that lost 20% of info! Greetings from Ireland, Brian,
Way kill' work you do sharing this stuff with us, Brian. TY very much! :D
Brian, Thanks very much, I have watched F1 for many years and have always wondered what theses engines worked and looked like inside.
Stunning. State of the Art in one term. Thanks for video🙏!
Are you planning a video on the intake and exhaust ports. They look very different to anything I have seen on a production engine. Subscribed!
Great work. 🔨🔧🔩
Thanks so much for sharing. 😎👌🏼
Intake and exhaust spring open pressures combined with volume of valve cylinder would be valuable info? Inlet air pressure would be a guarded secret. My guess is all four variables change in ratio with lift and duration of cam. Lots of expensive dyno hours!!!
Sounds Awesome!
I only flicked through this, but dont think you mentioned re-entrant cam forms that went hand in hand with this...
Students might love it😅
Thanks for the Video. Great job
Very good explanation. Thanks for sharing
You can’t really grind an alloy surface in the same way you can steel so hence the liner inside the bore. I would suggest thermal considerations and the risk of galling at high revs would be other pertinent reasons for a steel liner.
By the way, the operating pressure of the AVS was only 1.6 bar.
Just wow! Open wondering how this works ever since I heard of it. I was fascinated by the fact that these entries could reveal to 20000 RPM and some of the things that took To Do that.someone. Else was talking about this but they're explanation didn't really do it for me.now I get to see when start to see how it's made.
Internally still curious how it actually goes up-and-down and to imagine the pressures involved. Thank you for sharing.
I have a 2.4 V8 camshaft (CA something on it), hollow and DLC coated, very impressive piece!
Awesome, thanks
God bless you for doing this video!
Haha! No problem, many more to come...
nice work , thanks
this channel looks awesome
Very interesting. Subscribed
Thank you.
fab vid brian brill
That's a fascinating video and one of the few engine parts I knew nothing about.
Amazing how simple the check valves are even though there are a lot of pieces inside each one.
Could the pressures be 'fine tuned' with the assembly screw?
Some beautiful machining a lot of it I wouldn't like to do, way too sketchy on manual machines (I trained as a precision machinist/turner, 0.003 micron)
Are 'compound valve angles' the same or similar to radial valve engines where valve heads are kinda parallel to piston crown? (Honda RFVC, 1980's)
Are they titanium valves?
4.3mm is a real thin neck, particularly with a 40mm head! I guess the actual stem is about 5.5mm?
Lightened lobes on cam is interesting feature, thanks for cutting it up to show and tell.
Thanks for telling me to log on to F1 Technical, never heard of that site before
Very rare stuff !
I have serious plans to make something like this for small block Chevy and LS1 engines.
I knew about it but I have never seen It excellent piece of information just saying
That’s some job and fair play buying your own F1 engine man that’s class. Do you have any interest in MotoGP engineering? There’s a debate about whey the inline 4 has reached the end of its lifespan and success will be dependent on having a v4 and I would be interested to hear your thoughts. Best of luck from a Louth man living in Down and I hope you post more videos like this because there’s a lot of engine videos on RUclips but stuff like this is a rare as hens teeth
🏆🏆🏆👍🇺🇲🙏
Thank you for sharing
Is the oil that is removed thru the oil relief valve there as a result of a metered oil mix on the air supply or residual oil past the seals. If it is past the seals, I would assume it is happening when the engine is not running as I would think the positive pressure in the air chamber would keep oil always pushed out past the seals. thanks for the video. I'm an old American v8 guy but all IC engines to me are mechanical works of art with all the engineering, design, compromises and technology limitations that go into what looks relatively simply from the outside.
Ive always been a supporter of open source....You know driving evolution and all.
Cool
Student tinkerer trying to build a pneumatic cylinder head, this thing is something else. Modern designs have ditched the cams which is insane
Indeed...one maker Christian Von has gone camless...and instead uses voice coil type solenoids for actuation. However, these tend to be very heavy, which would effect the CoG of an F1 engine a fair bit. They're probably banned too.
@@EngineeredtoWin Thanks for replying! I did not expect to hear from you. I am digging around for designs I want to emulate. The combo of hydraulics and pneumatics is very interesting. I think it has a lot better design potential than just air and it is probably more realist for me than using electromagnetic actuators. I am going to need to get a lot better at machining if I want to emulate the complexity of using oil and air. But I think its the best path to getting variable lift which was a problem I was struggling to solve with air alone. I haven't sorted it out yet but some combination of oil pressure and porting can either set valve lift with directly with volume in a chamber or supporting a mechanism. It feels pretty out of my depth ngl but I am chugging away.
Presumably the valve isn’t sodium filled and it is retained via collets. 7075 grade ali is typically a grade used in aerospace and motorsport.
23.18...
Just compounding the restriction. The valve itself is the limiting factor.
IM IN THE VW WORLD MYSELF ENNY INFO ON THE 8V HEADS FOR USE WITH A 2.0L BLOCK WILL BE GRATELY APRESIATETD
Bonjour , c'est a Jean-pierrs Boudy que l'on doit le rappelle de soupape pneumatique . il a travailliez sur cette technique à la fin des année 70 et Renault Sport à demandé le brevet en 1982 .
Ce n'est pas de l'air comprimé de l'azote qui est utilisé . comf . Les années Turbo
Bravo Jean-Pierre! Genius!
thanks for explain, have you done a video about the pneumatic circuit? do you know how much pressure at the reservoir and how much pressure should be at the circuit to the valve chambers?, thank you!
So back in the day, main bottle pressure was circa 220 bar and feed pressure to the avs Circuit via a regulator of around 18_22 bar...
Wow! This is amazing. Do you know what system is used to provide the air for this. Is the pressure constant threw out the valve cycle, or is there any valving built into the regulator?
An onboard nitrogen tank is used - and filled in the pits. No onboard charge compressor. The pressure is constant yes, although it does rise under the piston plunger when the valve closes obviously. If the pressure gets too high it means there is some oil as well as air under the piston and a small spring plunger internal pressure bypass opens to vent oil momentarily - exiting out one of the small vent holes at base of assembly shown in video.
I would really like for you to look into the rod and main bearings on F1 cars. They are not traditional. I would like to see how the oil and all the materials they use. I have seen an illustration and it looks like they have used cylindrical roller bearings. Nice video. I just found your channel.
Max, have a look at Ep 9 - it may answer a few questions. As for Mains, they are pretty much traditional on all F1 Engines Ive seen - however some did use needle rollers to lower rotating resistance- however these have risks associated with them due to high hertzian stresses caused by the rollers. I'll be doing an Ep on this in time.
I’d be interested to know the weight of that valve is and if it was made from anything special? Would it have been a good choice for Beryllium?
What would a hollow F1 camshaft weigh? Never seen any of this kind of F1 engine info before!
I will check. It's made from 6AL4V Titanium. Ber is banned sadly, mainly due to machining and grinding dangers. Will also check weight of camshaft - hollow as you mentioned and not oil filled as with some engines.
@@EngineeredtoWin Thankyou. I find it fascinating to learn about these spaceship engines that cost teams $100m+ per year back in the day. 20,000rpm (and 3L @ 1000hp) is still a mind blowing number. Via your channel I can finally start to see how it was achieved
There is no actual reason why, at this point, naturally aspirated F1 engine details should remain secret. No sanctioned motorsport will ever return to a naturally aspirated formula. Ego is a helluva drug...
I’d have to disagree. We just gained a tremendous advantage over our competitor because of a picture they put on social media. We figured out the cause to a problem they had because of how they store an assembled part. Tiny pieces of information can be a huge gain to other teams.
It doesn't matter if they're NA, valves actuation is the same for turbos.
@Paul Bunce Oh, that's right, i forgot about all the turbo engines that spin up to 20,000 rpm... How astute.
The kind of drug that makes someone talk about the future of an entity as complex as Motorsports as though they've seen it already...
@WONMARK The turbo hybrid cars are physical manifestations of virtue signaling. Naturally aspirated F1 cars will return when pigs fly, and you know it just as well as I do. The plan is to move away from internal combustion completely, let alone naturally aspirated cars. Quit playing dumb.
Could you explain the ridge on the valve for turbulence? What does it accomplish? Just better atomization? Thanks!
What you want to learn you will discover when you study a phenomenon known as the "boundary layer effect." I don't know how to put the negative effects into words, but when you see it in air flow simulations, it will make perfect sense.
The turbulence grooves reduce the resistance/restrictive consequences caused by the boundary layer effect
,,, there outta be a break-a-way series for n.a. engines only, 21 thou rev limit . Actually the whole deal ( F. One ) might have to go nostalgia regardless . Might as well have the sights and the sounds .
great explaining, but I want to ask about it, is inside the pneumatic chamber has an oil? or just pressurized nitrogen only? thanks
Just nitrogen, and a tiny amount of oil that escapes past seals.
@@EngineeredtoWin okay thanks
I think cosworth air springs were the only cosworth part I was specifically told not to talk about.😮
Hi, in the early 90`s Cosworth were developing a 3.5 litre V12 F1 engine called the VB. I have access to a crankshaft from this engine, would this be something of interest to you?
No thanks, have many cranks.
I was in Jordan GP in 1994 at a test the 194 had a HART 1035. What year, car and engine, did your HART pneumatic valves come from, please?
Gerry, see Ep 8, thanks, Brian.
Love your English accent.
West of Ireland you mean... :)
On those engine is there alternator and water pump that can rev to those rpm?
Yes, gear driven off the crank. They rev to about 12k at 18k red line.
@Brian Garvey Humm when ford and yamaha developed the sho engine there excuse was when limiting the rpm of the engine was the alternator water pump couldn't not sustain the rpm over 7k
This is like looking up Yasmine Bleeth’s skirt !
Now or 30yrs ago? :)
@@EngineeredtoWin
Now that IS funny!
Pneumatic actuated valves have been around for quite some time in various iterations. They have defo been around on racing motorcycles so it’s hardly what you call cutting edge.
Just because something is around a long time doesn't mean the tech behind it isn't cutting edge and always changing...you will not find design details, discussion, or images of any actual pneumatic valve-train internal parts and seal details any where else on the internet bar the images taken by me. To go further, the design details and seal arrangements were and are so closely guarded, that at least two articles I have read on them in the past which contained photos, were rigged up with bogus parts, and some parts omitted to throw the reader and other possible teams.
@@EngineeredtoWin there was an article in a UK motorcycle mag about ten years ago showing the head of a Kawasaki race bike with pneumatic valves, but as you say nowt in terms of specs apart from rev limit. What interests me as a former R & D engineer and toolmaker is where is the air pressure generated for the valve actuators? I seem to remember the Kawasaki article mentioning it was nitrogen as the gas and not air - probably due to nitrogen being less likely to leak past seals.
@@shaunchurchill4594 Shaun, Nitrogen is used in F1 as it expands less at temperature vs normal 'air'. It is stored in a carbon fiber high pressure bottle on the car, similar in size to a camping flask. This is only filled in the pits, and no pressurization happens on the car.
@@EngineeredtoWin blimey that’s cool that the pressure vessel is so small but then again I guess I shouldn’t be surprised😀 I’ve used nitrogen in kart racing tyres and it’s the larger molecular size that makes it less able to pass through tyres and seals and as you say it remains a tad more stable than air.
Any speculation on N pressure inside the chamber? Your tech post discusses the over pressure bleed valve, but what ensures there's enough pressure so valve float isn't an issue.
Also you mention the running position of the finger follower on the lash cap is asymmetric, but no one says why. I'm assuming its to induce valve rotation, but just want to verify...
Valve float is a result of spring resonance. Gas springs have very high resonance frequencies not seem in reciprocating engines. So I guess air pressures is just enough to make the valve follow the cam closing profile. The valve parts are very light. Most probably spring tension is not more than typical road cars.
ruclips.net/video/Yl_VpSnupZw/видео.html
The pressure used in the Moto GP pneumatic valve system is 10bar (in the head/pneumatic chamber), I guess it's about the same in an F1 head.
I am still unsure as to how the valve stem and guild get oil lubrication...
It doesn't - bar the tiny amount of oil that make it past the seals
Is there a pump on the car to keep these up to the required pressure?
No, a nitrogen bottle about the size of a camping flask is topped off before each race. Its down by the drivers left thigh in cockpit. The seals don't leak much at all.
@@EngineeredtoWin thanks for the reply. I absolutely love the videos, cheers.
Man ever thought about get that pneumatic valve 3D scanned and CAD assembled ? I'll pay for the service 🙏🏻😇
I have all in cad...probed and dimensions taken with mitutoyo equipment. All TJ engine done with same and in step files.
Great video! Question how does the pneumatic piston 'grip' the valve stem ?
The collets...they lock the stem onto piston...you can still push the piston down the stem and off the collets, but the collet wedge angle stops it coming off the top way,
Ses un ingénieur de Peugeot sport qui a mis au point le principe du rappel pneumatique des soupapes M’ jean Pierre Boudy je crois
NO, Renault engineers, also french people.
Can you make a pneumatic 16v head?
You could if you wanted...however the expense of all the other parts that would have to pass those rpms would be large.
O yes... the first ones didn't have the liner.
Why do F1 engines not use desmodromic valves where cams push the valves open and pull them shut?
Then there’s hydraulic valve actuation that controls valve timing and lift. Fiat put it into their MulitiAir engines.
Weight
Do you know how much Co2 or Nitrogen that system would use in a race?
30% of onboard nitrogen gas storage cylinder...or 100% if seals are not all correct :)
@@EngineeredtoWin Ok not bad!
Renault V10 era pneumática as válvulas
Not bad! Valve springs are seriously outdated technology and a serious future maintenance liability and money pit. Imagine $4k to replace the BMW V10 engine's valves springs?
...or worse on those exotic car makes.
so the valve in the f1 is much cheaper than a regular valve spring?
Cool video. Thanks for putting it together. There's you and like one other guy on YT that gives us a glimpse into this type of F1 technology