F1 Timing Gear Torsion Damper - A Closer Look - Ep 2
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- Опубликовано: 10 окт 2024
- The Second of a New Formula One Technical Series where I take a Closer look at the F1 Timing Gear Torsion Damper Part. All Videos based on my F1 technical articles as seen online.
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Brian, We all enjoyed your posts on F1 Technical and this is even better! Thanks for posting.
Thank you!
25:57 best unboxing video ever ;¬)
seriously way more than i expected, that’s some beautiful kit
Fantastic video!! I am blown away by the engineering as is anyone that wants to understand the physics. These engines are even more beautiful when looking deeper. Thank you so much. Hybrids suck. I want high rev back.
What a beautiful bit of kit. The cam as well with the splined drive. Thanks for sharing.
This is AWESOME. As an engineering student in the 80s watching f1 develop was amazing. It is also amazing that Keith Duckworth came up with this, circa 1965!!!! Another interesting point about that velocity graph is that it isn't quite a sine wave, and the deformation from that has some quirky benefits....
Thank you so very much, Brian.
Now I know why these engines are so very expensive.
I am amazed that Keith could see this mechanism in his mind, doing the maths necessary to validate the effort to prototype it.
Thank you! I finally understand the direction of the vectors of secondary balance (if that’s the correct terminology). Amazing video.
Mind bending information sir, please could we have many more vlogs. My goodness the machine work and technology involved is superb, thank you..
Amazing video, go ahead!
This RUclips host is off the charts!
He caught my attention with the pneumatic valve spring technology, because I always thought valve springs were the most outdated parts of the engine ...
and it should be deprecated unless, pneumatic or a higher technology.
Now, with this video?
Subscribed!
Much Thanks! You ought to have a PayPal link or something. Wise folks will willingly support and contribute towards this magnitude of high level quality information. Keep this special information coming!
I've known about the concept of piston speed, instantaneous velocity and piston dwell for a long time, but I would have bet money that the piston was halfway down the stroke at 90 degrees before watching this. Thanks for teaching me something. Crazy!
Glad you took away something from it Cliff! Always stay curious :)
This is an older video but I have to say this is the best visualization of the crank rod mechanism I have come across.
Thank you for an incredibly informative video. I landed here trying to do some due diligence in rebuilding an Aston DB9 V12 (looking to bore and stroke from 6L to 7.3L. This really helped me get my head around the inner workings. Appreciate you Brian.
Fantastic Justin...glad my ramblings helped in some way! If ever you want to discuss your project further my email is in the about me page on here - have fun! Brian,
Having the timing gears at the flywheel end can minimise the torsional vibrations, Meadows truck engines were built that way in the 1950s and several Audi V engines have the same today.
Thank you for all that knowledge. I love it.
Great explanation, that’s for this and all your other videos 👍
I intend to watch all your videos but need time between then to absorb them as you introduce new aspects I haven’t thought about. That’s why I want to watch them. Thank you
Thanks for the analog sine wave generator, it's so simple when you see how it was done.
There are quite a lot of crank/con-rod video's on You Tube but mainly trying to explain con-rod length differences in relation to intake and exhaust cycles and not vibration causes.
The 12 pieces torsion arms look like miniature versions of air cooled VW Beetle front suspension arms.
Need to be a watchmaker to assemble some of those parts, must have been incredibly expensive to make and assemble
Using some form of 'bronze' damper ring is about as simple as it gets but shows why the engine life is relatively short as they will be wear items.
Glad it made sense to you! Ya...many just cover rod length...longer rod meaning more dwell at tdc. Nice comparison with the vw beetle!! The gullwing doors on the Delorean were also held open with precision torsion bars...which were stressed when doors were shut. All the best, Brian,
I look forward to more videos describing the intricate insides of high tech F1 engines.
It's amazing to think that those 12 little pieces of metal can carry close to 1000 horsepower. 🏎
Thanks so much for sharing. 😎👌🏼
John, indeed! I should mention there are two dampers per engine - one for each head. Thanks for the comment - more videos on the way.
@@EngineeredtoWin This brings me to the first question I had when reading the F1tech forum. Why one damper per bank, instead of just one on the crankshafts gear? Couldn't two dampers be replaced by lighter simple gears, and then one damper on the shaft that's causing the harmonics?
Excellent explanation of secondary imbalances. Best by far I’ve seen and I’ve seen quite a few 😉
(This is why I like in-line 6 engines)
The second part on the torsion damper is fantastic! I love this F1 technology.
Thank you very much for making these videos!
Been driving Bmw Inline 6 engines for the past 17years....My current engine is the M54 engine and the last of the greats...no throttle body restriction but instead variable valve lift, I intend keeping it forever! So smooth and love to rev as you know - two inline 3's, mirrored, so cancel vibrations. Thanks for the comment - sometimes Imbalance explanations are far too complex with too many white boards and math. I chose this time to show it with the actual parts and a simple jig, hopefully a bit more clear...
@@EngineeredtoWin Funny, engine that brings you right back to this video. The 89.6mm stroke BMW I6s (M54B30 and S52B32), have the worst issues with oil pump chain slap and pump shaft nose failures at high rpm of any of the M5X series engines. This is ostensibly because those long stroke cranks, despite being forged and quite strong, have poor secondary characteristics as far as I6s go. The cranks were never intended to rev over 6,500rpm after all and are probably inadequately damped. You never see anyone revving them very high for very long because of it. Supposedly adding an oil pump chain tensioner, which the S54 has, helps mitigate the chain slap. I've added this this to my 3L stroker M50 but don't plan on revving above 7,200rpm to find out how well it worked, and I don't plan on spending $1,000 on an aftermarket damper just to get a few hundred more rpm!
That is mind boggling. Fantastic engineering. Brilliant video
Always wondered what mr duckworths solution to the failures of the early dfv’s was. Now I know. Thanks Brian
It looks like the oil is routed to hydraulically separate the various parts inside that little fella, so they don't contact and wear, or need more material to withstand impact. The scallops in the thin faceplate, look like oil drains, to lift the tuning fork bar pivot couplers, but also to establish a flow to continuously re-center these end pieces in the little oil tubs. The spring in that plate lets out the excess pressure so it doesn't burst, but arguably, the spin would pull oil in, which is nice for durability.
Excellent, pls. put up the math behind. The oscillations, the resonance peaks and gaps, the octaves of the „sound scale“. The rpm equals power. How to get 900 HP out of a 3,0 V10 vs. 480 HP out of a 3,0 V8. The DFV was a very good engine and still is. The DFV made F1 affordable and competitive at the same time. Until the turbos came out the DFV was the best thought-trough design with all necessary auxiliaries. It was competitive right away. Understanding rpm and power it‘s so important and I‘m glad you started with details and interdependencies. Marco Illien was the designer of the Mercedes V10 which lost to Ferrari in 2003. The lubrication and the cooling got out of whack. I’m glad you sum up what belongs together. Pls. make book recommendations and explain what to start with when designing an F1 engine. More important, what are the typical parameters for particularly competitive F1 engines. Keep doing what you are doing, that’s awesome.
Excellent, very interesting and educational.
@IslandPink Thanks! Enjoy the others too!
The use and amount of torsion bars throughout the engine is amazing.
Another great F1 Tech video
Wow. Thanks for sharing.
I really enjoyed this... At the time stamp of approx 33:00 and on, the collective torsional twist is mind blowing...
Absolutely fascinating, a work of art. Thank you for sharing and providing detailed explanations! Your points about crank and camshaft elasticity and wind up, and the benefits of locating the drive points more centrally reminded me of an old Honda CB750 I had with the cam chain in the center of the engine, with 2 cylinders on either side. Given the length of the cranks and cams during the v12 and v10 eras, are you aware of any teams experimenting with driving the cams not off the nose of the crank? Granted it may have been impossible with a gear train, and I know chains are far too imprecise for that level of motorsport.
Very excited I found your channel, we seem similarly engaged by the tech moreso than the actual racers!
Its not frequencies its to take put error in the gear lash. The valve timing needs to be so accurate and gears give a large error. You see the same thing in high reving bike engines that use gears for valve timing. The torsion bar is a spring and the bike engine uses a spring as well between two gears on the same shaft. Thank you for sharing this its amazing to see
In the 70's (AFAIK, but the engine design is from the 30's) Electromotive Diesel Engines (EMD) used in railways locomotives had a similar damper in the accessory drive gear, the main difference is that it had inside 8 packs of flexible steel sheetmetal, one end tight packed in the central imput ring, and the other end confined in a housing in the outer ring but allowing it to flex and therefore allowing the outer ring to rotate..
That's actually very clever...done like a leaf spring stack..
Great video, thanks for sharing
Is there any feasibility of using a miniature twin wankel ( arrangement like DOHC cams shafts) engine or liquid piston as valvetrain and also as a positive displacement pump.
For example using one pistol and cylinder the wankel valvetrain on top.
One cylinder will have two wankel on top which push compressed fuel and air mixed and pump it into the cylinder and the other wankel will pull used gasses out after combustion out .
I was thinking, as it was stated that this gear with the dampening effect with in, is designed to reduce harmonics, which can and does lead to fractures/breakages, couldn't such a device also be manufactured wrong, and then in turn, cause harmonics, or cause more then would have normally been? or is it just by nature always going to reduce harmonics, just for being there? just curious.. What an amazing machine from a larger machine.
There are some pretty large chambers in that assembly, possibly for weight reduction, but they will be full of oil from what I can see, and what you mentioned in the video. Would they not supply a large damping component, with the possibility of variable forward and reverse damping.
Excellent. Very interesting explanation of the acceleration of the piston variation. As I understand, the horizontal axis represents "time" and the vertical is the travel.
The shorter the connecting rod, the worst. It would be interesting to show the same graph with shorter and longer conrods.
Use a spread sheet, you can do all sorts of interesting experiments using sin and cos functions. I managed to generate the second order vibrations. I also tried offsetting the the piston pin, it increases the down stroke time and decreases the up stroke time.
Excellent explanation and illustration of the dynamics at play in the mechanism.
A area of interest to myself, is the pre-chamber ignition system as is currently employed in F-1, with alleged gains in efficiency and reduction in pre-ignition under lean conditions.
Is this concept and manner of execution (components) anything you have experience with?
This. Is. Amazing.
All that torsional windup makes you wonder why they didn't just locate all the timing gear @ the rear of the engine where crankshaft twist is near-zero, or am I missing something here?
Torsional vibrations from firing pulses...
Your jig , only thing I can say ( most probably won’t app the language ) fkin brilliant, struggled with that and how long rod changes time spent at tdi v bdc
Very simple when you see it in basic terms Mike! Thanks, Brian,
Npt sure if it was commented already but a v10 would be 5 hits per rotation of the crank because the 4stroke engine is firing once per 2 revolutions ...... not at all thinking you don't know that im sure was just overlooked just bringing it up for the newcomers
Yes indeed... 4 stoke completion cycle = 720 degrees - 2 complete revolutions. No matter how many cylinders an engines got they just get divided in to 720deg. So a v10 = 720 deg divided by 10 = 72deg...or each hit every 72deg, so in one rotation as you mention would be 5 hits, = 72 x 5 = 360deg!
why not have a chain in the front and back to help eliminate torsion between the crank cam?
Fantastic
Excellent 👌👍
If you use a connecting rod that was twice as long. would the affect be half as much ?
Do those gears have involute teeth? Also, I wonder if the holes in the gears act as dampers too?
Awesome!
Excellent video. Just a question, could they have made the square hole with a broach? Would have been a very accurate hole for much less money.
They possibly could have, however broach wear would be a factor I'd say after a few holes...
That's super interesting Brian, V10 was my favourite time in F1, I have a eight cylinder Gardner diesel in my fishing trawler and that has revs where it feels much smoother much the same but on a slower rate, what work do you do now are you still involved in F1.
So damn cool!!!
Hi Brian, loving the videos! One question on the torsion damper: is this a component that would be limited to high performance racing engines, or would a standard passenger vehicle have some sort of equivalent part? I know you said you will only be talking about formula one, but I'm curious as to why this feature is only necessary in certain engines. Many thanks for your hard work!
ciao Brian i tuoi video sono molto interessanti!!!....sei un ingegnere meccanico?
Hello, thank you... yes, automotive engineering/design engineering background.
@@EngineeredtoWin ho il cambio completo della Renault F1 del 2010 Seamless
F1 engines make a Swiss watch look like a hourglass.
A timing belt or chain makes for a great torsion damper 😉
As Gordon Murray mentioned recently, chain drive is only good up to around 9500 rpm.
How can you bend your thumb at 38.04
What you on about 😂
Your method can make camshaft profil
hey brian! i sent you a message on twitter and i kindly need some info about the TJ if you don't mind!
please have a beer on me
brilliant little piece, far too complex for mass production or even the independent racer.