Did Caroline Maxwell See Mary Kelly Alive After She Had Been Murdered?
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- Mary Jane Kelly remains the most enigmatic of Jack The Ripper's victims, and several mysteries surround both her life and her death.
However, one of the biggest mysteries about the latter is that following her murder, several witnesses came forward to claim that they had seen her alive in Dorset Street several hours after her death.
In this video we take a look at those people, and assess the veracity of their claims and their reliability as witnesses.
The witness who it is most difficult to dismiss is Caroline Maxwell, wife of a Dorset Street Deputy Lodging House Keeper.
Normally, the more you look into a historical event, the clearer the picture becomes. With the Ripper murders, the more you look into the facts, the more confused the picture becomes.
I think the truth is, in London, they never want to solve the Ripper murders. Dozens of books have been written about theories, daily tours are given, and thousands of souvenirs have been sold. If the Ripper murders were ever solved, all of this would stop. Nobody could make any money off the Ripper anymore, because the mystery would be over. I think it’s quite possible that the murders have been solved, but they won’t publicize it, as to not upset this economy. It helps with tourism.
Idaho4
Actually, Donald Rumbelow's book lays out a STRONG circumstantial case against Montague John Druit, including a striking eyewitness description that sounds a hell of a lot like Druitt.
I think there was more than one ripper operating independently, one beginning his spree and the other taking advantage of the situation to begin his own.
Considering the fact that the body was so brutalized, how did the authorities identify it as Mary Kelly? Was it simply because she was the official renter of that room? Might she have rented her room to another woman that night, or allowed a friend use it, for a while? She may have been afraid to tell the women she saw the next morning of what she found upon returning home, but it was more than enough to make her feel physically ill. I'm confident she wouldn't want to be involved in a police investigation and have to testify in court. If she thought she had been the intended target, it may have caused her to leave London, allowing people to believe she was deceased.
Thats a really interesting point 👍
It is more likely that the witness, maybe befuddled with booze, was mistaken, than that the body was not who they say it was. She was not in the habit of subletting her room so why do it that night! There was positive id by the person she lived with on and off, probably by clothing, underwear etc, they did not have heaps of different outfits in those days, so someone's clothing was a reliable source of identification.
Joseph Barnett identified her body
@@khaleelmohammed9924but could he, given its condition?
I thought I had read somewhere that Joseph Bennett identified her by her hair. Very interesting.
Kelly comes home and sees the horrors of the murder scene. She is in shock, vomets and looks visably shaken when seen by Caroline. Kelly makes up the "horrors of drink" to explain her condition. Interesting that she used the expression "horrors".
Kelly then flees from Whitechapel perhaps knowing the murderer or expecting she might be next.
Exactly. What would keep her in Whitechapel? She owed back rent and struggled to obtain money.
If found, she faced possible charges of murder. Realizing this, she thought it’s time for me to get out of this city before I’m next.
Or she was the killer?
Yes , I have thought this also, she let another girl sleep in her room, came home and discovered the horror, 😢
Why wouldn't she flee with her boyfriend? @@DavidSmith-en8yl
Very puzzling, indeed🤔
It's unreasonable to believe that Caroline would confuse the days, and unreasonable to believe that she mistook the deceased for another.
I agree. We'll never know for certain, but I think the most likely explanation is that she wanted to involve herself in the investigation.
It is not unreasonable to believe she would confuse the days, eye witness accounts are extremely unreliable, how many sightings of missing people are reported from various people all seeing the person at the same time in various parts of the country?
@@janetpendlebury6808 Yes, eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable but this is not a case of asking you whether you saw someone last Monday or Tuesday, this is whether you saw someone a handful of hours ago, or yesterday. It makes no sense at all that she'd get that muddled. The shock of having seen her 2hrs before her corpse was found would have cemented that pretty firmly in place
@@woofbarkyap She claimed she went to bed directly afterwards, so maybe she dreamed it.
@@Nurichirinope....too many key details and other eyewitnesses were adamant about seeing her at 8 and 10.
Mary Kelly's alleged post-death sightings -- yet another enigma to the Jack the Ripper saga!
If it was her….wouldn’t she be traumatised…..if she,d gone back and found that body in her body….would she have been so normal talking to Carrie
@@billmcdermott9647
If she saw the mutilated body in her bed that would explain her feeling unwell and vomiting , a sight like that is enough to make anyone throw up , plus Mary Kelly was a shadowy figure and it was said was being looked for by what we now call a pimp ( theres a good book about Keiiy , sorry can't remember the title ) .
If the body in the bed was somebody else, then what became of Mary Kelly after the post-death sightings?
🥺🤔🙄🤨😦
@@ericanelson1973she fled and her family helped hide her. None came to funeral and couldn't be found
What if she was killed by a suburban sasquatch?
Richard: Another fascinating installment. But I have a question. I know she was found in her own room, but was there any other method of identifying the remains as Ms. Kelly used? I realize there wasn't a lot left to look at, but I'm wondering about possibly a unique dental trait, tattoo, etc that an associate could use to tell authorities "yes, that's Mary Jane Kelly." I'm assuming that, based on the location of the remains alone, the police took it for granted that it was she. I'm not theorizing about an unknown victim, but as a former US Police Officer, this video made me curious.
She was identified by Joe Barnett who was either her boyfriend or her flatemate and it’s said he identified her by her eyes
She was identified by her ears, by the chap she lived with as I recall, as a former rozzer you probably understand the uniqueness of peoples ears.
Thank you very much. I don't know about you, but the unique character of different ears has to be really extreme for me to notice it. I believe I heard once that ears are as unique, although far more subtle, as a fingerprint. That would be pretty effective in lieu of today's methods like dental records, prints, DNA, etc. I appreciate your enlightening me. (I knew the term, probably from reading about Norman Pilcher, but have never been called a former rozzer. I had to chuckle a bit on that)
If Mr. Jones has any other detail to add, I would be most interested.
Good day, Gentlemen.
The identification had to have been primarily on the fact that it was her room. Not even someone's closest family member could identify them just from their ears as Barnett claims to have done
Perhaps you have heard about Anastasia, the russian princess? Long it was said , she survived the killing of the Romanoff family. Some ladies said, that they were Anastasia, one of them Anna Anderson, was very convincing, knew a lot of stuff, but she was fake because of her ears, later also prooved by DNA ! Ears are really very unique, unbelieveable, i know ! @@bradparker9664
When I look at the inconsistencies in the testimonies of witnesses, in the Ripper murders, one conclusion pushes itself to the front on my mind. That the testimonies ultimately became a source of revenue for the local people. Some people might have simply been chasing a newspaper interview, with the money that came with it?
That almost certainly happened in some instances - Matthew Packer, Maurice Lewis and (possibly) George Hutchinson being prime examples.
@@ftumschk Definitely Hutchinson. He was paid by the newspaper
What is the proof they were paid? If yes how much?
I imagine that they'd want some sort of recompense for their stories, and who can blame them.
I really find it hard to believe Caroline Maxwell got the days mixed up having given Inspector Abbeline her statement the very day of the murder. I'm also puzzled by Mary Kelly's neighbours hearing a cry of "Oh Murder!" (I'm sure it was heard quite a bit in those days). If I was in the throws of being murdered I'd scream rather than shout "Oh murder!" That sounds like it was someone discovering a murder/finding a body.
I'm also intrigued by the conspiracy theory of it not actually being Mary Kelly but another girl. Didn't Joseph Barnett identify Mary Kelly only by her eyes? I can imagine Mary Kelly coming home, discovering the body, crying "Oh murder" then staggering into Dorset Street, throwing up and seeing Caroline Maxwell, telling her she had "the horrors of drink upon her".
Thanks for bearing with me 😆
I don't think that works given the time difference between when the "Oh Murder" cries were heard and when Maxwell said she talked to Kelly
Eyes, hair and clothing.
Why were those screaming murder anyways back then?
Great video, as always, Richard. Thank you. Really makes one wonder if Caroline did indeed see Mary Kelly at the time she claims to have done. I suppose it's entirely plausible that Mary Kelly took off when she realised some other woman had been murdered in her room and, because she was frightened beyond believe at what she saw there, went on to live the rest of her life in obscurity elsewhere. She was, after all, a woman of many secrets, was she not?
One of the doctors made his estimate of the time of death based on partially digested food in Mary Kelly's stomach. If she had indeed vomited just before talking with Caroline Maxwell, wouldn't the food in her stomach have come up? And if she ate AFTER this encounter, the food wouldn't have been partially digested.
Also, I wonder if police checked if there was vomit near the court entrance. Would at least back up Maxwell's story to some extent.
I think Caroline did see Mary she just got the days mixed up. That's the most logical conclusion.
Highly unlikely given that she was giving evidence at a murder inquest, and the psychological impact that the murder woudl have had upon local people.
OR-it wasn’t Mary Kelly who was killed. Maxwell testified on that Friday and it’s not likely she would have got the date wrong.
Kelly might have fled Whitechapel on hearing she was “dead”, and never returned. My armchair detective guess is there is unresearched info in the old newspapers that would point to her “post-mortem” history thereafter. Since she is considered #5, there’d have been no reason to search since, yes? Or conduct any DNA matching between retained evidence if any, and a possible relative for confirmation.
I cannot buy that it was the same day as her statement. She would have to be a complete imbecile to make that kind of mistake. Maybe she was, But her statement and testimony indicate otherwise
@@kevinmcgovern5110nobody knows Mary Kelly's true identity and therefore nobody knows what relatives if any she had.
I lean that way too, its just the fact that she was interviewed on the day of the event, makes her screwing up the days much harder to believe. Now if she had been interviewed in the following days perhaps.. What is interesting and I'm sure this has been brought up, if she was sick and throwing up its odd that she still had a meal in her system after death.
Thank you for making my evening even better!
I find it odd that no-one spoke to the landlord of the Britannia to find out if Kelly did indeed buy beer at that time in the morning
Sounds like a 'crisis apparition' whereby the deceased person is seen around the time of death, often appearing to people significant to them in life.
Perhaps the reason Mary said she was sick was because she hadn't worked out she was dead?
She was confused.
Eyewitnesses were discredited deliberately. They knew they saw her and the times. Mrs Maxwell had key details about Mary and they talked about her feeling ill. Her family couldn't be located or came to funeral because they knew where she was.
Then how did she throw up though? One of the witnesses said she saw the vomit that Mary had brought up, on the ground. I do believe in ghosts and in crisis apparitions but how would a ghost manage to not just throw up but actually deposit vomit on the ground?
A Great fairy tale if true?
Well, other than the victim not being Mary Jane, truth is I could not give any better explanation than this, actually!
Thank you for this video that a comment I left on your other video was asking about these sightings after Mary Kelly’s murder..🎩👍
The fact her statement was taken so soon after the murder seems to make it unlikely that she mistook one day for another but it also seems unlikely that the medical professionals would be so far out in their time of death estimation. Perhaps the victim wasn't Kelly after all! On the subject of Millers Court, I realise beggars can't be choosers and all that but whoever lived in that room after the carnage must have had a very strong constitution. Even if it was cleaned up a bit just knowing what happened there would give you the shivers.
On this channel there is a video about a journalist who interviewed the person living there after. He notes bloodstains on the wall next to the bed where the person he was talking to was laying
That hasn't changed much though. In low income/social housing, a lot of murders and unexplained deaths happen, as well as bodies being found months or years after death due to nobody missing the deceased person. The properties just get let out again to the next tenants. If the next tenant complains about it being haunted, this gets explained away with "mental illness".
I agree, it seems like the victim was not Mary Kelly.
I think Abbeline was doubtful that the body found in 13 millers court was mary kelly. Caroline Maxwell was very certain of her sightings and if it was kelly she saw it busts the ripper case open again. Personally, I think the body in that room was not mary kelly, I have studied the case for 45 years and the mysteries continue to bafflle me still. millers court holds the secret to the entire case for me.
Abberline was very good at his job not withstanding the limitations at the time. As an experienced officer who knew the area well I am sure he would have taken many factors into consideration. Remember he also interviewed Hutchinson at length and whereas some might have seen him as a suspect Abberline did not.
Agreed, because she was so badly mutilated including her face was Mary Jane Kelly ever formerly identified? We really can't say with 100 percent certainty that it even was Mary. I agree with everything you said.
Was that why MJ's face was badly mutilated so as not to be recognised so it may not have been MJ.
I alse believe it wasn't Mary Jane!
Then where was the real Kelly?
Mary Kelly was behind in her rent to McCarthy. It's possible that he made her share her room with another working woman to clear the debt. This was Barnertt's reason for moving out. Also it's never been established who Mary Kelly was. Catherine Eddowes used "Mary Kelly" as a pseudonym, maybe MK was an in joke among the local working women. As for mistaking the day, it was on the lord Mayor's parade. I can tell you exactly where I was last St Patrick's day, if for no other day of the year.
Can you remember where you were the day after St. Patrick's Day? :-)
I imagine that part of the identification was based on the clothing Mary Kelly wore, they usually only had one or at most two dresses or outfits at that time, so would be well known by what they wore. She was murdered in the early hours of that day, so if she had 'celebrated' that day, she could easily become confused as to when she had last seen her.
@@janetpendlebury6808she wasn't confused and other witnesses were not either. Mrs Maxwell had key details. Her clothes were different. She was sick. Clothes folded neatly on the bed with the corpse. JTR didn't fold them. No family could be contacted or located. They communicated thru mail regularly. She escaped and they helped her.
Interesting....I had totally forgotten that Catherine Eddowes had used Mary Kelly as a alternative identity. I think I overheard this from a video a few years back and it had completely flown out of my head.
Thank you, another very good and nicely put together video. I am more inclined to go with the doctor’s timings and what the neighbours had heard early hours Friday. If Kelly was feeling sick I would think the last thing she would want to do is bring someone back to no.13 that Friday morning after the conversation with Maxwell and admitted feeling bad. Also she had vomited the beer up, yet she had the contents of her stomach examined and it contained food. Would that have been the case if she had thrown up ? I would think she had eaten, but Thursday evening or afternoon once she felt better. Like the police said , Maxwell must have got confused with the mornings. For me Nichols then met her killer later that evening or in the wee hours Friday. Can I just ask a question about the Bucks Row murder that puzzles me. We hear of the consistent violence that went hand in hand with the East End at that time. I am puzzled by all the interest and commotion related to the Nichols murder by the general public. If this indeed was no.1, nobody knew that at the time, like I think you have said before. Or did all murders of the unfortunates receive a great deal of publicity and public interest. I think I heard you say in an earlier video, around a thousand people were waiting to see Nichols body transferred to the morgue. Thank you.
Other eyewitnesses and Mrs Maxwell were not confused. Key details and times. Mary and her family communicated thru mail. Not one came to funeral and couldn't be found because they helped hide her. She got away from that effed up life
At the time of the murder Mary had a friend staying with her. Her name was Winifred May Collis. After the Miller's Court murder no one heard or saw Winifred again. In the 1890 Mary's family got a Christmas card sent from Canada from Mary Jane.
Mary Kelly’s supposed family in Ireland were never located. How anyone can can confirm said family received a Christmas card from Mary in 1890 is beyond me?
@davekeating. in a book called the ripper and the royals they used patt of Abberline diary where he wrote it in it.
@@davekeating.She communicated with her family thru mail regularly. None showed up to funeral and couldn't be found. They knew where she was and helped hide her
do you have source on this information.
It always saddens me that the historical sites of the ripper murders have been destroyed in the 20th century. Imagine the very building where Mary Kelly’s room was still there to this day? What a fascinating place that would be today.
True, but nobody today would want to live there if it remained as it was.
29 Hanbury Street was still lived until it was demolished in 1969/1970. See the clip of James Mason visiting the backyard
If they could have preserved any of the sites I would have chosen Mitre Square first followed by Bucks Row.
If she saw Mary Kelly then the dead girl in the room wasn't Mary Kelly. But the dead girl in the room was Mary Kelly because the girl she and others saw in the street wasn't Mary Kelly. It was Mary Pearcey or Lizzie Williams. A woman was involved in the murder of at least one victim, that of Mary Kelly.
Can you do a video on Hutchinson? His testimony seems the most problematic of all
Hutchinson was paid by the newspaper.
Eyewitnesses and Mrs Maxwell had key details. Mary escaped that hard life and her family helped hide her. None came to funeral and couldn't be found
I ADORE your channel. Jack the Ripper has been burned in my curiosity streak for the last 35 years. I’ve never found a channel that I didn’t already know pieces to the story or the different theories. Just when I think you couldn’t create another brilliant piece to offer more information, more possibilities to consider to rot my noodle brain, you do. And you do not disappoint.
It is tantalizing to solve, but even if it isn’t (and it won’t be) I don’t think people would ever be satisfied. Would you?
Great video. Thanks for sharing.
The 2001 movie “From Hell” also used the theory of Mary Kelly faking her death and leaving London in case if she is the Ripper’s next target. In the film, Kelly leaves her house before Jack’s final murder.
This aspect of the Ripper murders has always intrigued me because not only is Caroline Maxwell very credible, she wasn't the only one stating that Kelly was alive much later than believed. I looked up when rigor mortis begins to set in, and it appears to commence after about two hours. Dr Bond began his post mortem at 2pm, so this would surely give at least some credence to a late morning murder?
It starts around 2hrs but usually completes in 6-8 so if he started at 2pm and rigor had started but not yet completed, that suggests 4am to 6am. That said, there are many factors affecting it, that I'm not qualified to assess and they wouldn't have known about then either so....
Mary got away from that life and her family helped hide her. None came to funeral and couldn't be contacted.
Rigor mortis is affected by room temperature. I seem to remember Kelly's room had a blazing fire of sorts, with burned clothes, probably started by the killer. If warm enough this would speed up decomposition, and make it appear she'd been dead for longer
Well, Kelly did have another lady staying, as Barnett states, to which he did not like ...even various women ...Kelly does not seem to be plump in death bed photo. The witness did not know Kelly that well, em.. one of her friends could have discovered Kelly's body, Vomiting of the sight, and did not want to get involved. Yeh ...something of a reasonable situation here. Interesting ....good stuff.
She was subletting to earn money. Too many key details of eyewitnesses. No family came to funeral and couldn't be found. They useta write each other and helped hide her.
agree with a comment-maker, crazy as it sounds, but there are countless cases in the records of crisis or trauma apparitions, and the spirit "feeling bad" attributed to drink as normal for the (recently) living, confused by the transition and trauma experience. The cases do indeed leave a trace of significance to someone known before their passing, which in itself may be the catalyst for the appearance form and interaction through summoned energy. Excellent presentation thank you
Too many eyewitnesses with key details. No family came to funeral and couldn't be found. They helped hide her. They communicated regularly by mail.
There was a lot of boozing in Whitechapel Caroline could have had drink problems ( most of Whitechapel did) as an recovering drinker myself i used to get days mixed up even hallucinate. I’m not saying this was the case but its possible.
Too many key details and other eyewitnesses too. Mrs Maxwell wasn't confused. Mary got away and family helped hide her. None could be found or came to funeral
As someone who has worked night shifts for 3 years when i was younger it is not actually that far fetched that she simply confused the days . Working nights for years starts to seriously mess with your brain. I would always mix up days and generally have a bad understanding of time. Days just seem the same cause you don't socialize much in your spare time and they float into each other. Sometimes i would go to a store and when i was there i had entirely forgot what was the purpose.
Every one of the victims wore a dark dress. Here, Mary Kelly is remembered by Caroline Maxwell as wearing a dark dress, black velvet body with a colored wrap around her neck on the morning of the 9th, around 9am talking to a man in a plaid coat. He was dressed as a Market Porter, although I’m not sure how she recognized that (how did a market porter typically dress? Did he wear an apron?
In another article it accounts Cox testified she had known Kelly for eight or nine months, and that she had last seen her alive in Dorset Street at 11:45 p.m. on 8 November, "very much intoxicated". She had been wearing a red pelerine and a shabby skirt.
I just wondered if the color of dress was a possible factor in selecting a victim. A dress would have been easier to lift to access the victim’s body. As opposed to a skirt and blouse. A dark colored dress would hide stains, so if he was interrupted in the act of murder it might buy him a moment (as in the case of Mary Ann Nichols).
Excellent Richard, will watch tonight 👍
There are three options in my opinion: 1. Mary Kelly wasn’t really killed and the person who was identified as her is an unknown, 2. Mary Kelly really was killed and Caroline was mixing up her dates, or 3. Caroline saw Mary Kelly’s spirit lingering in the vicinity. The only way to confirm or debunk Caroline’s statement is to do a DNA analysis on the body. But that does bring up the question of her true identity.
Honestly, I do think Mrs. Maxwell did speak with someone, but I’m not sure it was Mary Kelly.
Also, as a side note, I’m pretty sure I read that Joseph Bennett identified Mary Kelly by her hair.
The statement that Mary Kelly was stout seems at odds to me. Everyone said she was a beautiful girl. In her death photo, her arms are very slender.. So don't quite know what to make of that..
Too true, Her arms are slim in the murder photos!.. Seems like Everyone is confused now as they were in those days?
It's so difficult to reconcile this with what we know. Some works of fiction surmise that the Ripper got the wrong woman (as shown in From Hell), but I'm not convinced this is what actually happened. Was there a way to identify the body besides where it was found? I know at least one author thinks she was murdered that morning, and even cites a witness saying he passes by a man with blood on his face in Mitre Square not long before the body was discovered.
Autumn and spring can be very confusing as dawn and dusk are very similar, either side of the clock. Most of the time measurments are based on Caroline's husband finishing work. If he had concluded his duties at a time different to his habits this may have shifted the hours when she made her observations.
Odd that Maxwell refers to Mary Jane Kelly as “small and stout”. In my opinion, the crime scene photos don’t depict a stout woman. But, I guess stoutness could be subjective.
I don't think Mrs Maxwell was lying, but it seems likely she was mistaken about the date, due to tiredness. She worked long hours and as she stated when she saw Mary she had been up all night assisting her husband. Under those circumstances it's easy to be confused.
She wasn't confused and the other eyewitnesses were not confused either. Key details. Her clothes were different and the corpse lay in the bed with neatly folded ones. JTR didn't fold them. She got away and her family helped hide her. None came to funeral and couldn't be found. They used to write each other.
Excellent video.
So there was an argument about another prostitute using the room.
The victims face looks unrecognisable.
How was MJK identified as the victim ?
My well considered opinion is that I have no idea what the truth is on the matter. That said, it's another brilliant, if puzzling, presentation by Mr. Jones!
Mary Jane Kelly apparently had a habit of letting other women stay in the room overnight. Her husband had left her because of this. When he was called to identify Mary Jane, he knew it wasn't her but pretended it was.
A very interesting aspect of the mystery, this. Good show. Just goes to show how unreliable eye witnesses can be. Same with Long on Hanbury Street.
We cannot take the supposed eye witness accounts as gospel when there is conflicting actual evidence.
Love the "Im not feeling too good, I've been drinking too much"..... "oh just go and have a beer" to and fro 😂.
Witness testimony is so notoriously unreliable, I’ve heard many call for it to be disregarded in law courts.
Thick dopey London cmp knows his stuff 😂 they waz a clueless in 1888 as they was in Yorkshire 100 years later haha
@peteclarke9416
The police WERE as clueless in 1888 as they were nearly a hundred years later in Yorkshire.
Ironically both Rippers were likely local married delivery drivers. 😉
She was sickened by the sight of the corpse. No family came to funeral and couldn't be found? That was deliberate.
I think it's unlikely that she got the days mixed up, she was being asked about events that morning.
To me it's likely she mistook the woman she spoke to as Kelly, it doesn't sound like she knew her that well.
I think it's fair to say that if the deceased wasn't Kelly, why didn't the real Kelly come home during the midst of the investigation? That was Mary Kelly lying there.
She was afraid she would be next and wanted out of that life. She got away and her family helped hide her. Remember they didn't go to funeral and couldn't be found. They communicated regularly through the mail before she escaped.
Could have been a time travel mix-up when I…erm… someone brought her back in the morning after the murder instead of by midnight to not mess up the timeline. Fortunately I… erm…they fixed it by taking her back again.
I mean, was there so much vomit appearing so regularly outside properties in the area that no one was able to confirm whether there'd been some in a particular spot in the street outside their house/shop earlier that day or the day before?
Great video richard thank you,maxwells statements corroborated by maurice lewis,the times report also validated her story by checking out the milk shop,seems sound enough to me.theres also the report from the evening news,"a man engaged in buisness in mitre square at 10:10 on the morning of the murder,when a tall respectfully dressed man ran in to him,he had blood on his collar and face,he didnt know about the murder at the time". All very interesting.
Jack The Ripper didnt solicit and kill his victims in broad daylight. He was a night killer.
@@lyndoncmp5751with 6 weeks having past since the double event,who would have expected jack to strike in the daytime.?.probably nobody.the unfortunates would have their guard down..probably saying the same as u have, jack, he only kills at night.
She was seen by witnesses at 8 and 10 that morning.
Did the Police check out the shop in Bishopsgate to see if the shopkeeper could corroborate Maxwell`s claims that it was Friday?
Rigor mortis is affected by room temperature. I seem to remember Kelly's room had a blazing fire of sorts(?)with burned clothes. Maybe the warmth of the room made the body appear it had been dead for longer. Just a thought
So she’s either confused…..and got the days/times muddled or Mary was not in that room.
They didn’t have any DNA could Barnett have been wrong and misidentified the the wrong person….but then again he lived with so if he wasn’t sure wouldn’t he have said ?
Barnet would surely be able to identity Mary even in that state. The clothes, hair etc.
Why does no one assume that the corners were wrong? It is just as possible.
But the sightings also go against JTR being a night/darkness killer. Which he was. He's not going to be soliciting a victim in broad daylight.
Mary Kelly may have disappeared and the woman was the woman she had had in her room before and the woman was blackmailing Kelly's male companion Joseph Barnet because she knew Barnet was Jack the ripper. The face of the victim was destroyed and Barnet recognised her by her eyes. If Barnet had murdered the blackmailing woman he would say he recognised the victim as Mary Kelly Mary Kelly then did a runner afraid of Barnet. Somebody said that Mary told him or her that she knew who Jack the Ripper was.
Would you dare blackmail Jack? No, thought not.
Hutchinson was outside while Mary Pearcey was with Mary Kelly. Pearcey took too long because she went berserk. Pearcey stayed with Mary Kelly for hours. Hutchinson did not dare approach the room and thought it too dangerous to hang around for hours. He left. Pearcey left in the morning wearing some of Kelly's clothes because she burned some of hers in the fire. Not for light but because they couldn't be used outside.
If food was found in Mary's stomach, then if she was being ill that morning her stomach would have been empty.
Is there being food still in her stomach consistent with her throwing up?
How accurate was the ability of Victorian doctors in establishing times of death?
Thank you. Enjoyed.
I think what we have is people who wanted to be somehow connected to the victim for Victorian clout. It would also make sense that Mary's murderer would have left the room before sunrise. Even though this was a gruesome crime scene, it wouldn't have taken more than an hour for him to have committed the horrendous acts committed. Considering it only took him a matter of minutes to commit the other crimes. Around 15-20 minutes in Mitre Square. The PC had just patrolled that area 15 minutes before the discovery. Maybe Mary is the only victim who may have actually known the killer.
What a giant mess and such little questioning also when there are so many lies and inconsistencies, this one is glaring, a problem that HAD to be resolved before the case could be, so the fact they didn't inquire this woman further is a bit puzzling. If what she is saying is true and given the state of the body was a medical fact and could not have been mistaken, then only one option arises.
It's possible that the deceased wasn't the renter at all and that "Mary Kelly" was either involved or saw the body and felt ill and then fled Whitechapel.
If you believe she was involved that would explain the abnormally extensive facial mutilation as a deliberate move to make the body impossible to identify
That would be the only explanation that would cross my mind, other than that the only other explanation involves her mixing up the dates like the Police presumed.
Then comes the old question why did the murders stop... one thing that crossed my mind is that it's possible that this last murder was a copycat murder, given how much more gruesome it is than the others, someone deliberately trying to attribute it to the Ripper and thus making a gruesome scene on purpose, if you believe that, and believe that Stride was likely murdered by someone else with a different M.O. as i do then there are suddenly only three canonical victims and that change makes a lot of other things possible, like a sailor that was only in London for a month and then departed for instance
Present day forensics tell us that,rigor can be present from about 2- 4 hrs after death has occured ,first in the face and hands then progreses to larger muscles,complete apprx after 12 hrs.dr bond doesnt state where rigor was marked on marys body he just says rigor mortis had set in and progressed during his examination. If she killed at 2am rigor would have been all but complete at 2 pm.if she was killed at 4am 10hrs would have past when bond started his examination,by which stage rigor would be at a more advanced stage. I think a much later t.o.d is more likely than those proposed by bond and philips.
How is it possible to see someone alive after they've been murdered?
Is this resurrection?
In view of the state of the body is there any chance that it wasn't Kelly but some other unnamed woman? Not withstanding Kelly was never seen alive again...
Never seen alive again Whitechapel ….the theory goes she came back and went into her room and saw what was on the bed and just run for it basically
She was identified at the mortuary by her boyfriend.
Mary Jane Kelly may or may not have been the victims real name. Police needed to establish was she the person renting the room from landlord McCarthy? And what name did she go by?
Maxwell says that Kelly was wearing a dark skirt, a velvet body, a knitted shawl, and no hat. The police found a velvet bodice on the chair in Kelly`s room.
Mrs Maxwell was sleep deprived, could have easily mistaken the day.
You mean seeing a ghost isn’t more plausible?
@@Dude0000 No, but she was probably genuinely mistaken rather than outright lying.
Other eyewitnesses and Mrs Maxwell had key details and were adamant and not confused
@@stevenpeaketrainsandstuff3682Just doesnt make sense. She first testified on the day she claimed she saw her. She was testifying having seen Kelly a few hours ago! How can you mess up dates here?
I think she may have dreamed it, or saw someone else and convinced herself it was Mary. The alternative to the latter would be the knowledge that she was wide awake that close to where and when Mary was killed and horribly mutilated.
I could listen to the narrator for hours….
Most witnesses (I would assume) were also prone to the drink and especially Gin, so my guess would be any witness statement would have to be taken very lightly to be an absolute depiction of events and times. Inspector Abberline must have had a tough time with these characters.
For some reason I don’t believe her due to the fact that the person with medical knowledge said something like 6 hours because of the food in her stomach, I don’t think it would be in her intestines after 2 hours
did they ever proof that it was mary kelly in the room, may be it was someone staying with her which would explane why she was seen, if it was kelly then it could not of been her that maxwell saw, one thing has always puzzled me why did chtherine eddowes used the name mary kelly
Her body was positively identified by her boyfriend. Hideously mutilated as she was, I think he'd have known it was her.
But what happened to Mary? Sorry, that doesn't make sense. Catherine Eddowes partner's surname was Kelly. It's not surprising that she would give different names to a cop, she was picked up for being falling down drunk & put in the cell til she sobered up, not because she committed an offense where she was being charged.
I have heard that there are two conflicting descriptions of "Mary Jane's" height and build. Unless the extent of the mutilation obscured these, I would expect Joseph Barnett to be better qualified than Caroline Maxwell in terms of the victim's dimensions. [Unless he was lying] Was someone like Elizabeth Foster asked to corroborate the victim's height? Would the landlord know whether she was short or tall? My guess is that Maxwell believed that she had seen someone with whom she was scarcely acquainted, but was mistaken. When Maxwell said "stout", did she mean "plump"?
Yes usually it means plump, not obese but not skinny by any means, just enough chub for a double-chin
Kelly was filleted like a fish, which is interesting, considering that was the profession of her dissatisfied some-time boyfriend.. though, going by reports, he fully cooperated with the police investigation. Perhaps, seeing the possible connection as mentioned.
It must have been Kelly she had locked door and plugged the broken window so her death had to have been between 3am and 10 am the room would have been hot due to a blazing fire which would effect the time of death, she had gone to sleep when she was murdered her clothes were neatly folded on a chair so if the door was locked it’s not rocket science to work out, who had the lost key .Who was so in love with her and hated her so much and if true took her heart so no one else could have it because she had told him earlier she had met someone else and not to come near her again.he had also killed at least two others she knew to scare her off the streets that worked for a time until he had lost his job and had no money.
She was seen by other witnesses at 8 am and 10 am. She was wearing different clothes according to Mrs Maxwell, not her usual and no bonnet. Neatly folded clothes were hers. She was sickened by her friend being brutally murdered. They assumed it was her. No family came to funeral and couldn't be found? That was deliberate. They wrote each other at times. They helped hide her.
What happened to Caroline after her statement? Was she a known lier? Or did she love an honest life?
This sort of runs parallel with the film : from hell 🤔
A Great Presentation as Usual 😉
This reminds me of the Salem's witch trials where people made stuff up bc they were bored but at least they stuck to the same story. Here it seems like people are just pulling random stories to get attention and no nothing helpful.
When looking at the ripper case it’s important to separate FACT from OPINION… There is only one FACT we know for sure…..
IT WAS MAYBRICK
Did Charlie; or should I say Jack The Ripper, know that it wasn't Mary Kelly, and didn't it matter that it wasn't her.?
Given the way Mary Jane Kelly was so severely mutilated, would that make a difference on the body cooling more quickly?
Hmmm... very interesting indeed!
OK, so I read the title, and I’m going with “No.”
The one in green is the best imo 👍
Shame no sources/samples are available for some sort of DNA matching.
So I think the question we should be asking is why did Joe Barnett positively identify her if it wasnt Mary on that bed?....
Thankyou 🖤 🇬🇧
The latest victim wasn't Mary Kelly.
Mary Jane Kelly seems to have been a stubby woman. The woman they found mutilated was not stubby. She was slender. It must have been someone else.
It was never established that Mary Kelly was in fact her real name. No birth or marriage certificates, no family found for her funeral. All we have is what she allegedly told others about herself.
I've started to believe this, it explains the far more gruesome mutilation and the special focus around the face, almost like someone was trying to make sure the police would believe the Ripper did it and not even consider alternate possibilities, whilst making sure the body could not be recognized.
I currently believe the Stride murder to have been a coincidence due to the different weapon, different M.O. and sightings differing from the man that was seen with Eddowes the same night, he wouldn't have had enough time to change if it was the same person, so i believe Stride was murdered by someone else entirely and it happening on the same night as Eddowes was a mere coincidence.
Then i also believe that Kelly was a copycat murder, and do not believe this woman was lying, i believe she did see the real Kelly and i believe the real Kelly was somehow involved in the murder of another woman and simply couldn't deal with the outcome, that's why she felt ill upon seeing it and why she fled
How could she see her if she's already dead 😮
Either Caroline Maxwell had the day she last saw Mary Jane wrong or she did indeed her...ghost! I'd like to think she saw her sprit leaving on her way to eternal rest.
I also agree it may have been thursday instead of Friday. Maybe maxwell was a little ditzy
Her face mutilated that bad she could of been anyone
Who killed Mary Kelly?
You didn't pay attention to the video? The killer's identity remains a mystery
Why don't they exhume the body that was buried, and take some dna samples? You can tell the ethnicity of a person now from dna, if she was Irish, then it narrows it down, maybe a relative can be traced
The grave marker is an approximation
Ìmo Kelly's çlothing being left untouched and neatly left over a chair says something although im not sure what ? .
That she went to sleep as usual and the ripper entered probably opening the door through the broken window and killed her in her sleep.
where did she go ,after 2days she disappeared so it appeares she was dead on the bed she would have been recognised.The maxwell tail is nonsence,whishfull thinking. ttfn&ty
Sounds like Kelly may have been drugged.
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When did all these people sleep? As I watch these JTR vkdeos it seems about 70% of the people of London stayed awake all night?
For real. The 2 men who stumbled upon the body of the first victim did so on their way to work... AT 3AM!!!