"Did Jesus Exist?" Skepticon 2 Redux Richard Carrier
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- Опубликовано: 14 фев 2011
- Filmed and edited by Rob Lehr of Hambone Productions. Re-uploading any portion of this video is not allowed unless consent is given by Hambone Productions. If you would like to use some of my footage, please send me a PM and we can most likely work something out.
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This is the most hilarious and funny lecture among all the lectures he did.
Sense of humour in this was just perfect timing!
2,000 years ago, books were rare and expensive. If you wanted to sell any, they'd better be really interesting.
This IMO was Carrier's best talk. This one was the funniest and most entertaining
this video should have 2 billion views. one for each christian
Im only 2 minutes in and I see problems in his argument. And yes I'm a Christian
@@aaronmuller6050 Richard Carrier is laughable😂
Literally no serious scholar is taking him seriously
@@aaronmuller6050 2 minutes was all I had patience to endure this nonsense. 😄
@@AwesomeWrench True that, but it should make him suspicious at the very least.
There are reasons why that is the case.
thank God, we outnumber you
Very interesting Lecture, Thank you Richard Carrier
There were many thousands of Jesus's, none of them were magic, all of them died.
There still are cincentrations of Jesuses in Latin America ....but also Hetculeses in Greece and France , and Thors in Skandinavia .
Josephus depicted within the time of Jesus a feverish epidemic rave of Messiahs of all sort, by far more successful than Jesus: Theudas, the egyptian, the samaritan prophet and son on all of them crushed by the roman legions...till the very moment when the Temple was utterly destroyed.
Thanks for uploading a very interesting, enjoyable lecture.
Richard Carrier is absolutely hilarious in this speech. The explanation of New Testament scripture in modern vernacular just shows how strange it is.
It was written in Greek.
@@missasinenomine I don't think he said it wasn't
Carrier’s “modern vernacular” now sounds rather tired, outdated, totally unfunny and shows how “strange” he is. He reminds me of some kind of mouthy, wound up, American insult comedian of the 80’s. He looks so serious and nervous, like he’s got to read these 10,000 words in half an hour, otherwise, he won’t get his fee!
Or, maybe, he’s just seen the cops at the back of the hall, come to investigate the sex pest reports about him.
@@danderran aww, don't worry. The cops will eventually find your cache of little boys in your basement and want to speak with you too. You are projecting so hard, you're going to pull your groin muscle, or maybe your spleen.
@@danderran Pure ad hominem...please address the arguments.
Let's spread the word folks! There never was a Jesus!
Praise be the Truth!
Wrong.
You are doing exactly what Jesus said that you would do . And you are doing it. Jesus also said that you will go to your knees and confess that He is who He says He is. And you will do it. I will do it also. You , me, or Carrier will have no choice.
@@alvindaughtry2168 the fact that you think like that does not mean that everybody will do the same. When Justice comes, It comes from the Holy Spirit and you will notice It.
Using Acts to destroy historical Jesus is pure brilliance.
no. you are just easily decieved. hell is your destiny and im not gonna get in your way...just destroy ur illogical arguments
Johnny A You need to watch this video again starting at 19:04 and ending at 41:06 until you understand that Richard Carrier has just used the trials in Acts to invalidate the Gospels.
@@XalphYT Richard Carrier is a big joke. He could probably create doubts to convince you that your great grandparents did not exist.
bo ang Would you be so kind as to provide an example?
This talk is very entertaining. But it misses the point that using Acts by itself to try to refute (or indeed to accept) any historicity in the life of Jesus is a fallacious approach.
Acts was not written or intended to be a complete or accurate record of historical events; it wasn't meant to be history. It was written to address issues of theology of the time it was written; to address issues of the relationship between the early Christians and the Jews, and the early Christians and the Empire; and to be didactic. It therefore has its own particular emphases; and of course it has lacunae where the author would have decided some information was not relevant to or useful for what he was doing.
This is not dishonesty. It is simply a different genre from history.
A loose analogy is Shakespeare's history plays. People in Shakespeare's day, watching Shakespeare's plays from _Henry VI Part I_ to _Richard III_ , would not have expected that the plays depicted a complete or accurate record of events from 1422-1485. Nor would they have believed that most of the words Shakespeare had his characters say were ever actually spoken by the real historical figures a century before. Shakespeare had his own purpose, and his own messages, that he was putting across.
Equally, though, this is not to say that there is no historical accuracy in Shakespeare's plays. There is some. And there is some in Acts as well. But finding it takes much more careful sifting, analysis and interpretation, and comparison with other evidence, than Dr Carrier is willing to acknowledge or engage in here.
----------------------------------------------
As an aside, at the start of his speech, Dr Carrier quotes a section of the Talmud ( _Sanhedrin_ 43a-b, dated 100-200 AD). It is by no means true that this passage from the Talmud is 'really the best evidence for Jesus that we have outside the New Testament'. Dr Carrier misrepresents the findings of mainstream scholarship on the other extra-biblical sources for the existence of Jesus, including Josephus.
Regarding Josephus specifically, what Dr Carrier terms as 'nearly everybody' in this field of study in fact agrees that the paragraph referring to Jesus that Dr Carrier mentions is partly authentic, and partly contains later Christian additions.
Even removing what may be later Christian additions, we are still left at the least with something like:
_At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who received the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following both among many Jews and among many of Greek origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians, so named after him, has not died out._
There is, moreover, a second passage in Josephus which mentions Jesus. Josephus relates the trial and martyrdom of 'the brother of Jesus the so-called Messiah-Christ, whose name was James, and some others'. Scholars accept that this passage is authentic to Josephus.
There was a writer, inventor and genius "Jara Cimrman". Born in Vienna, died in Liptakov just before WWI. is father was a tailor, his mother was an actress, his sister became a teacher. He wrote more than 20 theater plays, one opera, books, poems, diaries, one theater plays only his works for more than 50 years (It started when there were still witnesses of time he lived in), they play nothing else, still sold out. He was close friend with T. A. Edison and helped him with the lightbulb mount system. He was teacher of the kids of the Duke Ferdinand Habsburg. He was imprisoned for a while, because a bridge which he helped construct collapsed. There are streets named after him, he is mentioned in, many books, some movies, there are photographs of him. He is part of popular culture for at least half a century. And - he never existed, he is a construct made by several people in the 1960s as a clever protest against foreign soviet regime and local authorities.
Awesome! Thx!
I just spent an hour reading about him. Wow! That was one impressive dude. And look! He even has an asteroid named after him! That is some serious commitment to a joke.
NOT ONE OF THE 33,000+ GODS IN RECORDED HUMAN HISTORY WAS REAL. THEY EACH HAVE THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE FOR THEIR EXISTENCE AS THE OTHER GODS. NONE; ABSOLUTELY NONE .
Carrier makes a really good case for the mythicist side. There's obviously no way to ever prove or disprove Jesus's existence(well they'll never be any we can find) but I feel there's no reason to believe he existed at all until there evidence.
Yeah me too I do not believe in Jesus' existence either.
@@ClassicTrevorn0101 Christ existed as a real person within history.
Why does the video skip before he responded to the first question? I really wanted to hear his answer..
Excellent. Thanks for uploading.
This made me laugh so much i nearly spat out my dinner twice!
The book mentioned by Richard Carrier that has evidence of Jesus outside of the gospels is:
Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence (Studying the Historical Jesus) by Robert E. Van Voorst.
Thanks HamboneProductions for doing this.
Great Richard Carrier video - I love his theory. I hope the idea spreads through the atheist community.
If the comments and response videos are any indication - this theory also really makes fundies uncomfortable!
Well has it? It's been five years
Most atheists care about academic credibility, which is why Richard Carrier will never be taken seriously.
@Alex McAuliff haha. Well, moving on from your ignorant assertion that religious people are somehow not normal, or thinking...if it’s true that you think rationally, and are objective: consider that if an academic is held in low regard by the wider community (e.g., a low number of citations to that person’s work), there are probably good reasons why that is the case.
@Alex McAuliff You wrote: ‘Being an atheist (a.k.a a normal thinking human)…’, the clear implication being that non-atheists are somehow NOT normal, thinking humans.
“there was a man who spoke to some God and was told how the world was created.” I don’t know what story you’re referring to there. And your point is irrelevant - a person brought up without scientific “indoctrination” (education) would be ignorant of much that is true, for example. What’s your point?
The point I was making - you claim to care about rational reasoning, yet at the same time you say that you’re not interested in academic credentials. That is irrational! At least in the West, if a person has gained academic credentials, they’ve EARNED those credentials, for good reason. Which is not to say that all academics are trustworthy purely on the basis that they have a good reputation, but as a rule of thumb, if a person teaches at say Oxford, or Cambridge, it’s a good bet that they know what they’re talking about. And if a person has a poor academic reputation (as Carrier does), there is likewise probably a good reason.
@Alex McAuliff I didn't say you should venerate academics, or not question them. I was simply pointing out that your statement "I couldn't care less about a persons academic credentials" stands in contradiction to your alleged rational mindset. OBVIOUDLY you should care whether or not a person has academic credentials. If I'm going to buy a book about the historic Jesus, for example, I'd much rather buy a book that's written by a respected, well cited Oxford scholar, than by a nobody who hasn't got any qualifications.
Loved this
Heru was known over 10,000 years ago. Born December 25th, born of a virgin, known as the 'Way, Truth & The Light', had 12 disciples, died on a cross and rose after 3 days and was the 'Lion of Khemet (Egypt). This lie of Jesus was forced on us and was derived from Horus or Heru...Please watch this sermon from Dr. Ray Hagins and learn our lost and forgotten truth/history and not 'his' story...
hahahahahahahahaha
good one
This is a great presentation.
Thank you Dr Carrier!
This public intellectual will make you a better thinker.
This is a great video, a reality trip !
Carrier should consider doing standup on the side. LOL
Idiot atheist you use a picture of stephen hawking who is widely known to have been one of the smartest people alive and then 'idiot atheist' as a nickname. are you insane?
+Idiot atheist The concept of religion is somewhat funny, especially how anyone with current understanding of empirical study could fit such nonsense into their heads. And I mean all religions.
jmitterii2 Prove religion is nonsense.
Idiot atheist CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. name your religion
Samura1gamer The claim is "The concept of religion is somewhat funny, especially how anyone with current understanding of empirical study could fit such nonsense into their heads. And I mean all religions". I want to see proof.
Awesome speech. The cult approves.
Pog
52:09 Robert Van Voorst was my undergrad professor. Great guy and scholar. he's convinced by historicity because he was a Methodist minister, i suppose.
Have you read the book?
@@gabepearson6104 I did look for it on amazon. but then knowing that I took 5 classes with him and spending hours at his dinner table discussing the NT, I figured I knew most of the material already. Robert is a wonderful person and was a joy to learn from; has a great sense of humor. I just happen to personally know that for all his erudite scholarship - historicity came down to his "faith".
@@turinhorse ok that’s really cool
Thanks for the Q&A section reference. I recalled that he said that too, but didn't want to search through the video to find it.
Peer review will be interesting.
"Son of God - Bacchus Edition": that's the one for me!
That was a wined-up.
Just a small little grip: The original version of Mark (the earliest of the gospels), end with an empty tomb and no mention of a resurrected Jesus ever appearing. The chapters after the empty tomb are later additions by scribes copying the book.
Wait... you actually think Carrier does not know this? Did you listen to the lecture?
Clear explanations well presented. Ancient folktales and fables are demonstrably not histories. Belief in nonsense is a threat to any society. The Jesus myths crumble under scrutiny.
Interesting... What are your thoughts on gender ideology?
1. Is it true that a male can become a female?
2 Is it true that a person can be born in the wrong body?
Wrong.
Christ was existed.
Jesus Christ existed
@ 6:20 - If the Sun went out ... the Chinese would be freaking out? Perhaps not, because when it is 3 pm in Jerusalem, it is already 8 pm in Beijing (and this was to supposed to have occurred around the Spring Equinox). Aside from that minor detail, what an excellent analysis of Book of Acts! Great work. Cheers.
This guy is spot on with listing the many Bible Difficulties they are not controversial because any serious reading of the New Testament will reveal them.
I am perplexed...I was an atheist in my youth and in my teens... At 21 I had a panic attack and back then there wasn't much info on them... I thought I was having a heart attack and ended up in the emergency room and kept getting them really severe for the next 20 years....after that first one out of fear i starting studying the Bible and praying to Jesus and god.... I was consumed with Bible study and listened to christian radio preachers non stop...I read the bible through many times... I was born again and sanctified in the blood... ( Sounds like a statement of horror to me now!) And on my way to heaven and eternal life... But then i started going to church..... I slowly began to see everyone in every church I went to was full of shit ... I saw more manipulation, liars, sexual deviance, fake smiles, and repressed hate...I found more compassion and honesty when I was in my 20s hanging out in a bar I thought!!!???...As I got into my 50s in age
I began to think about the the things I had studied in the bible for all those years that were hard for me to believe in but was told not to ever question like the "virgin birth" and that superman Sampson guy breaking 7 new ropes like wax in fire, talking donkeys and snakes, zombies walking the streets, the weird necromancer powers of Jesus, his walking on water feat, god who is "love" drowning everyone in the whole earth but 8 people and we are supposedly the off spring of these incestuous bouts of sex, burning bushes that don't burn up, 3 Hebrew children thrown into a furnace that don't get burned, guys blowing their load on the ground and god is so pissed he kills the dude, people selling their own land and keeping the money fall over dead because God wanted that money... And so on....just pure bullshit... I didn't believe it when I read it the first time and don't believe it now....
But I have issues with things like ghosts and hauntings, UFOs, bigfoot sightings, chupucabra, fairys, reptilian humanoids, poltergeist, men in black, black eyes children, time slips, dimensional portals, and so on... I have personally experienced a few of the afore mentioned and I am at a fucking loss ..... Why is there such polarity of good and bad.... pleasure and pain,... Hot and cold... Sugar and salt... Wet and dry... Fast and slow... Etc..?????
I am totally agnostic about everything... I feel like I can't believe a shred of truth about anything!?? People are horrible!??...
Hate, war, disease, race, anger, murder, crime,liars, gossiping, fighting, greed, and so on....
If there's a god... He's and asshole at best and doesn't give to shits about us... I'm sorry... I would love for there to be a caring loving father figure... But I just can't see it...if we are made in gods. Image then why aren't we invisible??? If god is our father what the hell did he do with our mother????
I am so confused about the high strangeness of this planet I could just shit my pants and roll over dead...am I the only one here????? Anyone else understand what I'm saying!!! CAN U DIG IT!!!?????
You said that you have read the Bible several times. If that's the case then you must be familiar with the life of Job. The book of Job can be found in the OT. I'm very interested to know what you think of that story. Perhaps an understanding of that book may give you a more brighter outlook on life. But I would really like your feedback.
@@sethflores1680 The book of Job was horrible I thought when I first read it... God allows Satan to kill jobs 8 children...cover him in painful boils ...his friends all shit on him .. Takes all of his wealth... Have his wife turn on him and all over a bet.... Doesn't sound like a loving father protecting his child from horror and pain.... Even though the end says he got back his wealth 10 fold....his children were worth way more than his riches.
I am 51 and can relate to what you said.
You are confused
Yup! Carrier pretty well nailed it. PRAISE THE LORD! Oh wait, he doesn't exist. Damn. Now where the hell will I go after this life? When I think of religion I feel embarrassed that adults actually believe in such nonsense. But, I feel anger when I consider the fact that they brainwash children with such absurdities.
"But, I feel anger when I consider the fact that they brainwash children with such absurdities." The only brainwashing going on is from atheist and their nonsense.
+Idiot atheist Why do you zealots come these sites and start telling non-christians how worthless they are? You are not converting anyone, but are making sure they hate your superstition even more. We need more christians like you, because you are hurting your own cause far more than we care to. I wish I knew where you went to church, so I could go teach Science in your Sunday school.
+mike112769 Don't bother trying to teach science to believers, especially the fundamentalist type. I have tried to explain evolution through natural selection to Christian fundamentalists (Creationists) and after "listening" patiently, their reply is always along the lines of "If humans evolved from apes, why are there still apes." They either simply choose not to understand evolution (or cosmology for that matter) or are too unintelligent to do so. It is so much easier for them to read one "Holy Book" and interpret the world through the writings of iron-age peasants. It is more than sad. It is pathetic.
mike112769 Hey Mike, when did I say anyone was worthless/ Jesus shed his precious blood for all mankind. That makes everyone, including Hitler, precious. atheist feel worthless because of the low self-esteem atheist feel about themselves.
"You are not converting anyone" I'm not here to convert anyone. I am shining a light of truth in ignorance of atheistic darkness.
"but are making sure they hate your superstition even more" atheism is all about hate, intolerance, anger, nonsense, hypocrisy, ignorance and bigotry.
Prove I have a "superstition".
"hurting your own cause" what cause? I don't care if you believe the truth I show.
" I wish I knew where you went to church". I go to Heartland Christian Center 170 South State Road 49 | Valparaiso, IN, 46383
219.462.4500
"teach Science" Some of history's greatest scientists were Christian. They all say atheism was nonsense.
Dr10Jeeps Again, you're atheistic ignorance and closed-mindedness shines through. There is a great difference between explaining evolution and proving evolution. Evolution is one of the greatest fairy tales.
Some of the books in the Bible were written in the 6th century B.C. To say the people who wrote these book were peasants again shows your ignorance. Peasants could not read or write. Your claim just shows how massive is your Bible ignorance. It is more than sad. It is pathetic.
If Jesus was the word, then Carrier impersonates the book.
Thank you @Roper122, that is a very succinct summary of the counter (erm... argument?) I was trying to give.
Love Richard, such a magnificent mind yet he manages to put it into terms that 99% of us can understand, that’s takes true genius
He thinks the most influential and important person to ever walk the Earth didn't actually exist lol. How you get to be this stupid is truly incredible.
Love Dick ? Well carrier is smart. But I wouldn't say that I love Dick. But he is a nice guy.
The one question I REALLY wanted to hear him answer is the one that get's skipped out...
who cares if a hippie lived 2000yrs ago or not? even such a lazy guy who didnt give a damn helping out in his fathers workshop, but rather hang around with some suspicious guys, debating bullshit, instead of pickin up a girl to raise a family and stayin mentally healthy by doing so...
good luck to those who need religion,.
Is this lecture available on a transcript I can print off ? It’s just plain brilliant.
I feel like many people are still living in 100 BCE reading the religious peoples' comments. They're either full of ad homine attacks or incredibly fallacious statements, along with extremely hypocritical statements or no evidence supporting their own claims. It's funny. But also sad. You'd think in this day in age with empirical reasoning, people wouldn't be as ignorant aka stupid.
I think the level of stupid when it comes to religion is a demonstration on how powerful culture is to the human psychology. Even light cultural influences have a profound indoctrinated effect. Even today I'll say things like "Thank god" or "GEEEEZE" which references Jesus, even though I consider all religions bogus, and consider all deities non-existent based on what evidence is currently available.
How are you certain that you're not under the same indoctrinated effect with hyper skepticism towards the historical Jesus?
What a masterfully skilled man.
Christmas can be magical for a kid, thinking about getting presents from a magic man who knows their every thought and deed and rewards them for being special. It can seem cruel and cold to burst that bubble of fantasy.
But Christmas really is even more amazing when it's about the people you love around you, sharing your love for them and theirs for you.
So it is with God...
I have always asked these big question as well. Very well said. Loved everything he said. I'll never understand why or how Christians will always put down other faiths or non-believers yet, their book is flawed due to the lack of evidence. #truth
Shroud of Turin real? Don't give a sheet! 🤣
E. T., ha ha ha. Good one.
Yes, how amazing that a star could travel around over a region full of expert astronomers yet only 3 men saw it, or earthquakes could happen yet nobody noticed, or indeed the Sun go out for hours, plunging the world into darkness, and again nobody seemed to notice it! Of course where the Sun to go out the Earth would be exposed to the cold of space, which would be a very bad thing. This video is brilliant, it shows the almost unbelievable stupidity of the Gospels, which can't even agree on the stupidity!
There's only one thing more entertaining than Carrier when he's deliberately being facetious, and that's the pathetic ramblings from butt hurt Christians in the comments.
1) Pliny was born in 61AD, and di not write this passage until the second century, nearly 100 years after Jesus allegedly. He cannot possibly be an eyewitness to Jesus.
2) The passage he writes does not even claim to vouch for the existence of such a person as Christ. It merely mentions people worshipping or cursing Christ. If he had spoken of people worshipping and cursing Zeus, but would that have implied Zeus was real?
In all it holds practically no water as evidence for Jesus.
I like this guy
The Talamud is the Jewish equivalent of the New Testament. Read real Jewish history. Read Josephus, who was a historian, not a defender of a particular religion. You read with your own voice, from the Talamud, that Jesus was hanged, then say that Jesus was stoned. Your credibility vanishes within moments of the beginning of your talk.
He addresses this in other talks and books. He can't cover every little thing you can come up with in less than an hour.
The idea of a scapegoat is that you can ritually load your sins onto a creature (traditionally a goat), and then, by killing it, it has taken your sins away.
This is absurd on many levels. For one thing, you cannot transfer guilt from one to another. If you did something bad, you alone carry the guilt and the blame.
For another thing, why does there need to be death for there to be forgiveness? It's one thing to load your sins onto the goat, it's another to have to kill it.
holy shit is richard carrier ever a beast. i havent read any of his books, but read excerpts and quotes here and there, just seemed like a respectable normal guy. but his honest position on him saying you should believe the consensus, as a layperson, of the people who he disagrees with, and until he can convince the community of scholars that his view is right, the consensus should be the generally accepted view. thats honest, frank, and aside from his wit and sharp language, that makes him boss
Good video, All serious historians and scholars know that the Jesus described in gospels never existed, Now I think the debate will focus on, which is the origin of the myth of jesus? who exactly made up all that shit and why?? Is it an allegory to something in particular?? the thesis of Joseph Atwill sounds very good buy other academics do not agree..
+CARLOS I All seriously deluded historians and scholars know that Jesus never existed. If there was one iota of evidence, that would be nice. There is no evidence that Jesus didn't exist. That is fact.
+Idiot atheist THE OLDEST SECULAR ACCOUNTS & HISTORICAL EVIDENCE ON THE EXISTANCE OF JESUS OF NAZARETH
Cornelius Tacitus (AD55-120) Roman historian: Most acclaimed works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals cover the period from Augustus Caesar's death in AD14 to the death of the Emperor Nero in AD68, while the Histories begin after Nero's death and proceed to the reign of Domitian in AD96. In the Annals, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians at Rome. See Annals XV,44: But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also." (The misspelling of Christ as "Christus" was a common error made by pagan writers). It is interesting that Pilate is not mentioned in any other pagan document which has survived. It is an irony of history that the only surviving reference to him in a pagan document mentions him because of the sentence of death he passed on Jesus the Messiah.
Suetonius: Roman historian and court official during the reign of the Emperor Hadrian. Suetonius wrote in his Life of Claudius: "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." (Life of Claudius 25.4). Chrestus is a misspelling of Christus; the spelling probably assumes that the spelling of Jesus' title "Christos" was the same as ate ChiRho symbol which was also a literary device which indicated a quote worthy of note = the 'chrestus" symbol. Claudius' expulsion of the Christians form Rome is mentioned in Acts 18:2. This event took place in 49AD. In his work Lives of the Caesars, Suetonius also wrote: "Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition." Assuming Jesus was crucified in the early thirties, Suetonius places Christians in the Roman capital less than 20 years later and he reports that they were suffering for their faith and dying for their conviction that Jesus had really lived, died and that He had risen from the dead!
Pliny the Younger: Roman governor in Bithynia AD112 wrote to Emperor Trajan to seek advice as to how to treat the Christians. He recounts that he had been killing Christian men, women, and children. He is concerned that so many have chosen death over simply bowing down to a statue of the emperor or being made to "curse Christ, which a genuine Christian cannot be induced to do." (Epistles X, 96)
Tallus: Tallus was a secular historian who (circa AD52) wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean from the Trojan War to his own time. The document no longer exists but it was quoted by other writers like the Christian, Julius Africanus, who wrote around AD221. He quotes Tallus' comments about the darkness that enveloped the land during the late afaternoon hours when Jesus died on the cross. Julius wrote: Tallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died." Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1 The importance of Tallus' comments is that the reference shows that the Gospel account of the darkness that fell across the earth during Christ's crucifixion was well known and required a naturalistic explanation from non-Christians.
Phlegon: Julius Africanus also quoted another secular scholar whose works are now lost. Phlegon wrote a history called Chronicles. Phlegon also comments on the darkness at the time of Christ's crucifixion: "During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon." Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1
(The 3rd century Christian apologist Origen also references Phlegon's record of this event in his work Celsum, 2.14,33,59 as does the 6th century writer Philopon (De.opif.mund. II, 21.
Mara Bar-Serapion: Syrian stoic philosopher who wrote a letter from prison to his son circa 70AD. He compares Jesus to the philosophers Socrates and Pythagoras.
Josephus ben Mattathias (also known as Flavius Josephus): 37-100AD, Jewish priest, general and historian. He wrote two great works of Jewish history: The Jewish War, written in the early 70's and Jewish Antiquities, which was finished about AD94. In his work, Jewish Antiquities, there is a passage that has created heated debate among scholars for many decades: "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day." Antiquities, XVIII, 33
Lucian of Samosate: Greek satirist later half of 2nd century spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians but never argued that Jesus never existed. "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day, the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account..." The Death of Peregrine, 11-13
The Babylonian Talmud: "It has been taught: On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out, in front of him, for 40 days (saying): 'He is going to be stoned, because he practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.' But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the eve of Passover." Sanhedrin 43a; df.t.Sanh. 10:11; y. Sanh. 7:12; Tg. Esther 7:9 (Another version of this text reads: "Yeshu the Nazarene." Yeshu or Yehoshua is Hebrew (or Aramaic) for Jesus in English this name is also translated "Joshua." The Old Testament hero bore the same name as Jesus the Messiah. "Hanged" is another way of referring to a crucifixion; see Luke 23:39 and Galatians 3:13
No serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus.
Otto Betz
dee hee This I know to be true. You should direct your response to CARLOS I.
+CARLOS I... THE OLDEST SECULAR ACCOUNTS & HISTORICAL EVIDENCE ON THE EXISTANCE OF JESUS OF NAZARETH
Cornelius Tacitus (AD55-120) Roman historian: Most acclaimed works are the Annals and the Histories. The Annals cover the period from Augustus Caesar's death in AD14 to the death of the Emperor Nero in AD68, while the Histories begin after Nero's death and proceed to the reign of Domitian in AD96. In the Annals, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians at Rome. See Annals XV,44: But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also." (The misspelling of Christ as "Christus" was a common error made by pagan writers). It is interesting that Pilate is not mentioned in any other pagan document which has survived. It is an irony of history that the only surviving reference to him in a pagan document mentions him because of the sentence of death he passed on Jesus the Messiah.
Suetonius: Roman historian and court official during the reign of the Emperor Hadrian. Suetonius wrote in his Life of Claudius: "As the Jews were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from Rome." (Life of Claudius 25.4). Chrestus is a misspelling of Christus; the spelling probably assumes that the spelling of Jesus' title "Christos" was the same as ate ChiRho symbol which was also a literary device which indicated a quote worthy of note = the 'chrestus" symbol. Claudius' expulsion of the Christians form Rome is mentioned in Acts 18:2. This event took place in 49AD. In his work Lives of the Caesars, Suetonius also wrote: "Punishment by Nero was inflicted on the Christians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition." Assuming Jesus was crucified in the early thirties, Suetonius places Christians in the Roman capital less than 20 years later and he reports that they were suffering for their faith and dying for their conviction that Jesus had really lived, died and that He had risen from the dead!
Pliny the Younger: Roman governor in Bithynia AD112 wrote to Emperor Trajan to seek advice as to how to treat the Christians. He recounts that he had been killing Christian men, women, and children. He is concerned that so many have chosen death over simply bowing down to a statue of the emperor or being made to "curse Christ, which a genuine Christian cannot be induced to do." (Epistles X, 96)
Tallus: Tallus was a secular historian who (circa AD52) wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean from the Trojan War to his own time. The document no longer exists but it was quoted by other writers like the Christian, Julius Africanus, who wrote around AD221. He quotes Tallus' comments about the darkness that enveloped the land during the late afaternoon hours when Jesus died on the cross. Julius wrote: Tallus, in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died." Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1 The importance of Tallus' comments is that the reference shows that the Gospel account of the darkness that fell across the earth during Christ's crucifixion was well known and required a naturalistic explanation from non-Christians.
Phlegon: Julius Africanus also quoted another secular scholar whose works are now lost. Phlegon wrote a history called Chronicles. Phlegon also comments on the darkness at the time of Christ's crucifixion: "During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon." Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.1
(The 3rd century Christian apologist Origen also references Phlegon's record of this event in his work Celsum, 2.14,33,59 as does the 6th century writer Philopon (De.opif.mund. II, 21.
Mara Bar-Serapion: Syrian stoic philosopher who wrote a letter from prison to his son circa 70AD. He compares Jesus to the philosophers Socrates and Pythagoras.
Josephus ben Mattathias (also known as Flavius Josephus): 37-100AD, Jewish priest, general and historian. He wrote two great works of Jewish history: The Jewish War, written in the early 70's and Jewish Antiquities, which was finished about AD94. In his work, Jewish Antiquities, there is a passage that has created heated debate among scholars for many decades: "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day." Antiquities, XVIII, 33
Lucian of Samosate: Greek satirist later half of 2nd century spoke scornfully of Christ and the Christians but never argued that Jesus never existed. "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day, the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account..." The Death of Peregrine, 11-13
The Babylonian Talmud: "It has been taught: On the eve of Passover they hanged Yeshu. And an announcer went out, in front of him, for 40 days (saying): 'He is going to be stoned, because he practiced sorcery and enticed and led Israel astray. Anyone who knows anything in his favor, let him come and plead in his behalf.' But, not having found anything in his favor, they hanged him on the eve of Passover." Sanhedrin 43a; df.t.Sanh. 10:11; y. Sanh. 7:12; Tg. Esther 7:9 (Another version of this text reads: "Yeshu the Nazarene." Yeshu or Yehoshua is Hebrew (or Aramaic) for Jesus in English this name is also translated "Joshua." The Old Testament hero bore the same name as Jesus the Messiah. "Hanged" is another way of referring to a crucifixion; see Luke 23:39 and Galatians 3:13
No serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus.
Otto Betz
+CARLOS I ...actually, quite the opposite is true. No sincere historian doubts he existed. The question is, who was he?
I didn't listen to the whole video but I heard enough. I laughed at the part where he said "Jesus became a God" That was so funny because Jesus is actually God himself. Anyway I really like the fact that this guy is really trying to dis the existence of Jesus Christ because he reads the Bible out loud to those that don't believe which is OUTSTANDING!!! because I believe eventually some nonbelievers would start to believe or star to read Gods Word. if I didn't believe or thought that something really wasn't true I sure wouldn't read books or transcripts by those that believe it. I don't believe in allah and try to prove that it's pure silliness and to read the Quran out loud to prove it. This guy sounds like a young preacher I hope he keeps it up because he will soon start to believe and might become one of God's greatest ministers of the Word of God. :) Keep reading the Bible out loud!!! Praise God!!!
Jesus is God himself? So that means:John 3:16
16 For Jesus so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.?
He gave himself, to himself? And he made his own mother (Mary) pregnant by himself? But that is incest!
Your trying to put God in the form of man. If that is the case everyone is doing incest ...lol He man us all. God Is a Triune God. God The Father God The Son, God The Holy Ghost or Spirit. No one on or no thing on earth was righteous enough to forgive us of our sins except God or really to cleanse us from our sins to make us holy before Him, so he sent his Son Jesus. If you send something that means it's already complete. Jesus is God's love so basically "God sent his love in the form of a child to become a man " God stepped out of heaven to show us how to live.
So if you read Genesis God said "LET US" "make man in our own image". So who was God speaking to? Angels? no becase the bible tells how angels look. Read the book of Matt. if you want to find out more of what I'm saying.
"god" should take some good medication and find help in mental health care.
???
I just happen to be an atheist but I do believe that Jesus did actually exist. Jesus of Nazareth probably was a carpenter.As you know he believed he was the son of your god. Not actually the son but figuratively. In some religions he is believed to be your god himself that manifested himself as this Jesus.I do not believe this is true for 2 reasons (1) I don't believe your god exists and (2) when he was being crucified on the cross he supposedly said "Oh father, why have you forsaken me? If he was god then why did he ask that question knowing that he was god? The bible is simply a collection of stories and letters that helped people make it through a very difficult life. No doctors, no dentists, a simple cut that became infected could and often did end your life. Jesus did want to help people,sort of like a social worker who thought people working together and helping one another was good "for the soul"If you do good things for people then you would be rewarded with everlasting life. Not in a heaven but in the hearts and minds of people who would pass down stories from generation to generation.That is the everlasting life they were speaking of.
"making up stories about Jesus not existing". That quote is utterly hilarious.
That was enjoyable.
The James passage in Josephus's antiquities 20.9 "The brother of Jesus,who was called Christ,whose name was James".This is interpolation using Matthew 1:16 "Who is called Christ".In 20.9.4 of antiquities Josephus writes "James is brother of Jesus Bar Damneus".
Earl Doherty (Bachelor's Degree ~ Ancient History and Classical Languages. Author of 'The Jesus Puzzle')"A good case can be made for saying that Josephus wrote nothing about Jesus and was probably unaware of any such figure."
That makes so much sense.
So all these these came together through the power of nature? That's pretty amazing
From now on I will no longer blame Eusebius and Constitine for forcing Christianity on the world. What would the world be like if Augustus, Tiberius, and Caligula had cracked down harder on revolts in Judea.
the cameraman/woman (at Missouri State) was possessed by a demon--Jesus, move it smoothly, I was getting dizzy.
43:00 Why did you cut out there!? I really wanted to hear his response...
It's the biggest cult the world has ever known
The Titanic went down, but it is still around, on it's decks , no one is now walking, but about the ship, we are all still talking.
The pain you will suffer in the next life will be unbearable. You will cry out from the depths of Hell, "Lord I loved you all my life, why have you forsaken me?"
The Lord will answer you, "the way you treated the least of your brothers, even your enemies, you did to me."
Your insults means nothing to me. They only fuel the fires of your eternal torment.
😂
You might talk to Jesus, but does Jesus talk back?
I like this guy.
Mixing faith with ignorance is like mixing water with dihydrogen monoxide.
At 43:30, Carrier is about to answer the question "Why do most scholars accept that Jesus was a historical figure in light of this evidence?" and the editor cuts to his response to the next question.
OH COME ON!!!
Is this censorship? It's totally unwarranted. Even if Jesus existed, that doesn't invalidate naturalism, nor does it invalidate Carrier's arguments. It just makes him an unremarkable, failed revolutionary who lent his name to a burgeoning religious movement.
Mjolnir Pants The question that leads to that rough and obvious edit job starts at 42:25. Yeah, I wish we got to hear the answer too.
If I wrote a story about a president of the US named Lincoln who was born in a log cabin, fought vampires and zombies, freed the slaves, was shot in the head at a theater and died, then came back to life and was seen by many people, and then disappeared, his body never to be found, am I talking about an historical Lincoln?
Well most scholars agree that the quote of Tacitus talking about "Christus" is forgery free. Now lets look at Celsus who was the anti christian. He despised Christianity. If anybody would deny Jesus's existence it would have been this guy. He felt it was a fraudulent religion. Instead of denying Jesus's existence he makes him out to be a fraud. There were many others who felt how he did but not one denyed he existed. Even people who hated Christianity did not deny Jesus existed.
Carrier criticises Paul’s letters for not mentioning anything about Jesus’ earthly life. David Fitzgerald, too, uses the same fatuous argument in one of his talks.
Paul had never met Jesus in the flesh, so why would he say anything about it?
Paul wrote his letters to already converted and established Christian communities.
Even if he did know anything about his life, who’s to know he hadn’t already told them about it previously?
Then, Carrier concludes, “So, the Epistles are no good”. 😳
Most of his playing-to-the-gallery attempts at humour go down like a fart in Church.
"...if you have a properly historical approach to, for example, the gospels of the New Testament, you realize fairly quickly that these are based on earlier written accounts, and that those earlier written accounts were based on oral tradition that go back even earlier...Paul's writings were 20 years after Jesus’ life, but Paul himself converted to be a follower of Jesus within a year or two at the latest of Jesus’ death" - Bart Ehrman (the jews were an oral culture...not a newspaper culture)
Where Richard Carrier answered the attendee's question about whether Romans crucified Jesus on a cross or a stick, and Richard said the greek stauros meant stick; the Latin crux also meant stick. And the ancient Latin writings don't give sufficient context whether crux meant the larger pole with or without crossarm, an impaling stake, or an outrigged spike that the Romans commonly attached to the larger pole where, when the suspended person slumped down, the spike crucified him by penetration.
funny stuff :) (meaning your mini-convo with tyler)
At 44 mins I'm pretty sure that's Dan Barker lol.
Is God willing to stop evil, but unable?
Then he is not powerful.
Is he able but unwilling?
Then he is not good.
Is he both able and willing?
Then how can there be evil?
If he is neither willing or able,
Then why call him god?
Epicuris 300 BC
Almost every carving from Pharaoh time has ring and cross, later developed to every Christians has his cross with him....
Amazing. !!!
Sun and stars were sacred in communities all over the world, new culture started spreading God, prophets and angels..
More than one thousand prophets, no one in China or Russia..how ?
What all these teachings lead to is meditation and that the kingdom is w/in not a physical church. When you meditate is when you realize you are part of God. God promises that if you will seek Him, you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart
I have a suggestion, on your next presentation reproduce the shroud of Turin and explain how you did it...because so far after being the most scientifically studied artifact in human history no one has been able to explain how the image was produced, except for possibly an atomic laser, which doesn't exist now.
Untrue . Leonardo faked it using thd camera obscura tecnique. Read the book.
Churchfather St. Jerome wrote about 390 A.D. a letter to Paulinus:
"......Even my own Bethlehem, as it now is, that most venerable spot in the whole world of which the psalmist sings: "the truth hath sprung out of the earth," was overshadowed by a grove of Tammuz, that is of Adonis; and in the very cave where the infant Christ had uttered His earliest cry lamentation was made for the paramour of Venus."
WHAT A COINCEDENCE!!!!
Witch part in the bible announces the time for the return of Jesus?
Some have paraphrased "within a life time", but I cannot find that part in the bible.
Pilate washed his hands, not likely to pursue disciples.
And while we are at it, its amazing that Carrier just makes assertion after assertion as if they are facts and that they constitute an "argument".
What like the bible
Still waiting.
The more you prevaricate, the more you demonstrate that you have total contempt for the 9th commandment.
Commandments 1) I am Love. Put me first, life will fall into place. I made you. I know how this works 2) Dont settle for dumb, temporary created stuff. 3) Dont do anything I wouldn't do then blame me for it 4) You work too hard. Rest 5) Honor your parents. They took care of you. When they get old, return the favor 6) Don't steal life from anyone. Your wisdom is limited. 7) Commit til death do you part 8) Dont take whats not yours 9) Follow through with your word 10) Be thankful for what you have
His work is in principle a repeat of previous speakers who debated Christ’s existence. It’s interesting that atheists like this man focus their efforts on Christianity and not other religions. Why not? Are they afraid of retribution for “presenting facts about God”? What courage they show to tell the truth! I’d like to see this man go to the Middle East and debate the truth of God.
bUt wHat aBoUt oTheR rEliGionS
If you pay attention to the context, you'll see that it's in reference specifically to the stories of Jesus in the bible. He's not saying that there was never any other man named Jesus. He's saying the different "portraits" that appear of Jesus in various books of the Bible (which he cites) are referring to the same person. The host suggested that different Jewish sects were referring to different people, who all happened to be named Jesus - their stories are in the Bible as if it were 1 person.
As a MSU alum and Springfield resident I don't know how other than divine intervention he got invited, in and especially out of Springfield MO. That he came is evidence that god has a sense of humor.....
Zeitgeist cannot be totally disregarded. Sure there are mistakes and issues in it but also major real issues brought up and discussed. That movie has done much more good than not even tho it is not perfect.
Most scholarship believes that Josephus' mention of Jesus was tempered with by later copiers, but not that it was completely fabricated.
He trashed the Epistles as "no good" based on his friend's quotes. This is right after he started his speech calling the entire New Testament "full of shit". Then he started using tv series as an analogy for the gospels. In one of his other videos, he accused the writers of the gospels to have connived to create fantasy Jesus and mixed him with real people to create an elaborate story about the life and passion of Christ...pretty much like Spider Man or Superman. He's accusing people, even those who were in prison at that time, to have been this smart to write a fictitious story that lasted 2 thousand years, and many to have been that stupid that they were willing to be arrested, tortured, and executed----just because someone had written a really good story about "spiderman" ....err I mean Jesus. Who's being full of sh!3 now?
liking your own BULLcrap ramblings is pathetic.
If you are really interested in evidence against your assertion Jesus was a conglomerate, in addition to the books on historiography and the historical method, I also recommend "Bandits Prophets and Messiahs: Popular Movements at the Time of Jesus" by Richard Horsley.
These are signs in the conscience of the mind you can't take a picture of things like that is a supernatural work.
immortality is being listed in a family tree.
I don't assume everyone walks is crazy and I am a Christian. There goes that argument
In the narrative of the Bible, man has incurred debt against God for offending him by hurting ourselves and each other. If someone murdered my wife, was that just an offense on my wife? No...not *just*. It also offended her family and me. She was ours to love and she was taken from us brutally. We incurred that debt. God Loves us and Love either turns a blind eye to debt (at which point...does it even care?) or demands payment. In this case, God chose forgiveness (to incur the debt)
Since you know so much, like how they sit, who God bless and so on, I'm just curious, what are they sitting in, is it chairs above the clouds?
Are God and Jesus different persons today?
when you lose control of your car and yell Jesus and miraculously survive without any damage you give God thanks.
That's a dumb ass argument.
@@johkupohkuxd1697 Par for the course coming from a Hebrew sky daddy freak !!!!
I've listened to this I can't count how many times and I just noticed the pun in "Heaven Knows" near 8:30.