Hold the Line - A Dark and Darker Podcast - Ep 29
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- Опубликовано: 8 ноя 2024
- Ye olde discussion of dungeon delving nerdery with a four-man comp of @SoBadStrange, @KenKnobi, @theendboss and yours truly. Tonight's guest is our former cohost, @OdinCasts.
🎧 Music Credits:
Holdeth the Line by ObeyedDog
• Hold The Line (Medieva...
Paint it Black by Samus Ordicus
• Rolling Stones - Paint...
#darkanddarker #ironmace #podcast 
Игры
The beginning of the episode was cut due to a skill issue. (I forgot to select "auto-start"). We started by talking about arena, so not too much was missed!
I’m a solo only player. arenas has really helped me get better at groups and now i feel more confident playing on a team in the real dungeon for sure
arcane looks like he is covered in cheeto dust cause of the lighting, what a real gamer.
I was in live chat but kept getting pulled aside by life so I couldn't ask my question.
Ironmace implements things in a way that appears conscious about server limitations and has built a monetization model around supporting the game's costs in that way.
If there were a playable gathering/trade/guild hall where player interaction could happen, wouldn't that burden/increase the scope of the game measurably?
It could be me overthinking, but I want this game to be as healthy as possible.
Arcane I respect that you defended Druid. I’ve been maining druid, and we get too much hate
Think PvE is needed in the arena else the ranged classes will have zero pressure from any source outside other ranged players. Being able to spam my 35 spells or 40 arrows without worrying about the skeleton crossbow shattering my skull. They definitely need to lower the amount of mobs or centralize them somehow. The ice caves spawn in the river room with two bridges was wildly imbalanced spawn wise lol. Arena was great. Way fewer plays around shitty door play like endboss brought up.
great take
Spot on.
Arena specific gear is a horrible idea. It separates the game modes even further. I always hated that about WOW. I hate that it almost sounds like you’re trying to copy the wow model. The way it works now with self found gear is amazing. It makes finding good items on your character in the actual dungeon have purpose. In other words the game modes work together. One feeds into the other.
If you make arena tokens for arena gear, people will just stop playing the regular game mode. Arena will just feel like a token grind so you can “compete”. It’s a horrible idea.
They misunderstand why people even wanted arena so horribly. The main game has become a materialistic, fake ass market simulator where everyone pretends they like gearing up for status reasons but we all know its an objectively lower skill, lesser version of the game. That, and people are sick and tired of running past skeletons for 1000 hours, the mobs are a joke in this game. The last thing that could've saved it was at least a pure pvp mode but the geniuses couldn't even realize that. Now we just slowly fade into the chinese RMT void
The glowing red eyes thing: Make it so when you press mouse 1 your eyes glows. That way you can still hide, but when you are fighting those eyes will glow. Would be SICK! :D
Its testing phase for arena. People are asking for them to remove mobs. Just remove them to see if people actually like it.
I enjoyed finding loot specifically for the 124 gs. It was a motivation to play the game to min/max arena.
24 bracket is by far the best bracket. At that point its not about items, its about skill level.
I think the reason why it's ppls fav is it's close to SSF.
It's been the BIS bracket for the dungeon and arena for a long time.
I feel as if certain classes perform way more efficiently with gear compared to other classes.
@@JJosephx That is a fact. Barb and lock require the least amount of gear. Wiz and rogue might out scale others with gear.
Ideally, sure, but the classes aren't balanced for the under 25s. Barb's base stats enable it to go in basically naked and absolutely destroy people, but classes like Wizard and Druid need at least some amount of gear just to function.
In the end, it's just a different meta.
1:14:41 I always had idea, that rogues could have ability, that would make all attacks behave, like they are done from behind target for few seconds (3-5)(ofc blocks/parry would still deny hit).
That would allow to utilize flanking perk much more, would accelerate squishy targets TTK, and would allow counterplay for difficult matchups, like pdr fighter
In Arena just triple stack Hide Rogues and sick all the mobs on the enemy! 😂
Warlocks Curse of Pain is a bit overtuned, although in general warlock needs more spells/curses to use in pvp. CoP, Bolt, maybe meme beam are the only viable pvp spells atm. Hellfire is only used for bossing/ breaking doors. Flamewalk is for mob clear.
I'm gonna put one more comment since I heard the game feels the best balance it's ever felt and I agree. The "meta" playstyles for each class are the best balance they've ever been I suppose. Rondel pdr fighter. Kiting curselock. Spell overload wizard spam. Ranger shotgun/traps. Druid bear scaling. Cleric super healing support. Bard doing overpowered bard things. Barb is mid and has borderline no place in trios right now. Fighter/Demonlock both are better than it at the role it could play which is buffball target imo.
But that's the issue. If you don't play the meta playstyles the game feels horrible. Solos is horrendous. Duos is all ranged for 90% of fights which you chase survival bow/fireball spam/curse kiting every single fight. The meta's for the classes are in S/SS tier and the rest of the playstyles aren't even in B tier is how the game feels. Ironmace needs to do a real pass at weapons/armors and the interactions between them/class playstyles to make more class playstyles viable. The metas for the class are absolutely strangling the game and stagnating the gameplay loop. I can only watch a stream where someone chases double warlock kiting across 3 modules so many times before I go watch someone play solitaire since that's more engaging to watch.
Perfectly balanced games don't exist that's fine. But to say Dark and Darker is in the best balanced state ever I think is disingenuous. There are many many many ways to play the game that are borderline unplayable because we refuse or are incapable to pull down the strengths of the overly dominant playstyles for the classes. There could absolutely be better balance in the game
I agree with 100% of this nailed every issue with the classes. Weapon mastery needs to be reverted back with -10% to non native. To kill the abusive Rondel fighter, its atrocious.
That's a take I've not really heard before, I wonder if it's just that there's a lot of attention paid to classes to figure out the most optimal way to play them since the game's been out for a couple years or if it's just that the the perks and spells haven't really been touched that much over that period of time. Like wizard hasn't really changed at all other than maybe meditation getting better and spell overload. Rogue maybe benefited the most and had a lot of their perks combined to make them playable at lower levels, but I'm not exactly sure how to fix that. You know a lot of those builds are part of class identity except for the rondel pdr fighter so I'm not really sure how to like solve that equation as a lot of those builds are really part of class identity.
Soma had an interesting take where he wanted to have subclassing. Like if you wanted to be a I don't know longsword fighter or two-handed weapon Master. You could get shield, mastery or perch related to that underneath that type of subclassing to have a little bit of depth. Maybe you could do this with other classes like you could be a stealthy rogue or like a DPS focused rug or something like that.
@@urbangent253that wouldn’t change anything for rondel/surv bow fighter they stack true dmg not phy dmg power!
@@Yolosapien420 -10% would lower damage by 2-3 on rondel. If anything it would deter alot of people from running it. It wasn't nearly as rampant as when weapon mastery had a penalty. But I agree with fully juiced all true it's still gonna be rough.
imo they should completely remove gear score brackets from arena. Make an mmr system (just a simple wins/losses) and have the gear matter. That way arena ties into the dungeon. You want to go highroller and loot good gear to take into arena. Noobs will still fight other noobs, that most likely will have bad gear too.
You said "i hope they never cater to pvp only arena dudes. So they don't have to play the main game and just only go into arena. Right now with the gear score brackets. Legit anyone who opens the game up without having played at all can just go arena under 25 gs and play a fair game. They have to make it so there isnt any gearscore brackets.
I played a lot of 124 arena but I was solo or duo auto-filling and we quite often had a team mate or opponents with way over 125 GS. we queued in with
You guys sure there’s brackets? West coast servers it didn’t seem like it. We went in squire gear and were fighting blues/purples, multiple times.
Yeah gear score brackets were confirmed by IM. But, if you random matchmake and the pool is light on players, you may get paired with someone without the same GS, and consequently end up somewhere you didn't intend.
@@ArcaneArmor thanks for the info! That must have been why, we didn’t have a third when queuing.
Won't touch Arena til the mobs are gone. I don't need a snapshot of Dark and Darker as I already play the game. If I want that experience, its already there.
Smart putting the stun on the worst player on your team (Katie)
How do you think warlocks okay when they can dot you one time for 70hp
Arena solo sounds sick to me. Especially since there’s eight starting rooms.
Community hall with board games, card games, training dummies, long sword duels. All stuff!
Pay to lose stuff like glowing red eyes the people need. More like pay a flex.
It's called goblin caves
lol true
@@gatortooth69 Dude, I would have a blast if they added card-based minigames to play with buddies. I wish more games had mini-games these days.
Look up trials of Osiris. I think that would be a cool way to do arena in Dnd
The reason people are saying wizard sucks and wizard is broken is because the only people that play wizard are either amazing at it or are getting shit on the middle ground is dead
I feel like they should use the mobs to push teams to fight and remove the storm. Instead of the mobs being super dense right off the bat ramp them up as time in the arena goes up.
Both teams agree to a cease-fire so we basically get to play cod zombies!
@@gatortooth69 at the end last team standing still wins I’m sure betrayals would happen and pvp would still be prioritized. I just hate implementing the storm when we already did away with it in the main game.
Two episodes a week when?
removing mobs from arena would be, well not really dark and darker anymore, but im still suprised that we all played this game in playtests and early acces and it had a CIRCLE, and no one mentions it, idk i miss it, maybe make it slower but still, no one talks about this but i lost a lot a flavor for this game when it was removed,people cry about the cat skin p2 win (bullshit), but me and my friends joke that we bought the game payd money for the circle and now its removed, would like to see this brought up in one of these podcasts.
Circle was trash majority of the playerbase agrees. It's not a BR it's an extraction game
@@Watashi_wa_robottodesu still, it made it more heart beat.
Yeah there were a TON of things we didn't get to. The inclusion of the circle in the arena was definitely one of them. Good call on that. I do think the dungeon crawler is better without the circle tho.
Extremely quiet, but great video!
Forcing players to do something they don't enjoy is not a solution to populating the game. I'd argue it will have the opposite effect. If there is a future where Arena is more popular than the Dungeon, that should be embraced. I'm not suggesting we should force SoBadStrange into Arenas after he clearly stated he doesn't prefer that type of gameplay. However its been suggested multiple times on this podcast that if a player prefers the Arena gameplay he should be forced into the Dungeon in order to compete in the Arena. That's asinine, while it may work for a few seasons players will get burnt out and ultimately quit. Make both ways to play the game great. Do NOT tie them together. That's my opinion.
Totally understand where you're coming from here. I was definitely one of the people saying "force" people into the dungeon. That was based on the perspective/assumption that you're cannibalizing (in a manner of speaking) your own player base. It also assumes that Terry/SDF are steadfast in their vision for the "core" dungeon delving game. So, if anything IM does detracts from that, even their own game mode, then they would naturally have to consider the consequences of it. However, from a business perspective, I would think they would have to consider the benefit of potentially attracting (and as you contend) and even retaining people who are just here for the arena. It's a tough dilemma to be sure.
The fact there's even a single person out there postulating on why we should maybe keep the mobs in arena shows how far up their own ass this community has climbed. I'm convinced these people would justify Ironmace shipping a dog shit sandwich to every players house at this point.
CoP is too strong right now. it’s a hitscan spell that doesn’t have spell counts
So we not going to mention the elephant in the room that is rondel fighter? What is their counter? 😅
Wizards with the fireball perk that eats through pdr.
@@chrisi9397 No, you have a bow. Be better at spacing. Next?
Edit also applies to warlocks.
@@alarex8204 wiz is there counter every class has a counter just because they have a bow doesn’t give up the fact they’re made to counter pdr lmfao
@@chrisi9397 Stop playing fighter like a w key barb, use a bow and you will have enough of an advantage that it's hardly a counter. Swear it. Not even mentioning the dagger with sprint.
@@alarex8204 you don’t even know how I play fighter or if I even do 😂 regardless there counter play for everything in the game the bow helps so much because rangers can counter wiz. if you just poke and keep spacing of course you’re gonna have an advantage regardless of class.
As a huge fan, all I can say is please keep it simple. All of the greatest games died because they did too much, they got too far from the original. The more classes you add, the more maps, the more ques, the more likely your game is to die.. you could literally just add cosmetics going forward and your game would never die.. but you’re playing a very dangerous game when you take a risk of losing your OG player base. I beg you, DO NOT PISS OFF THE PURISTS.
PS. vault/rework Druid.
Druid alone will kill your game if you don’t listen to your fans.
Imo, you shouldn’t be able to change your character model, this includes demonloc.. you hurt the foundation and formula of the game. This is the equivalent to cod introducing tonfas.. remember the ninja turtles in warzone? the formula has always been “shooter,” but when you have a whole class that isn’t playing the same game, it will cause a mass loss of players.. Druid is not playing the same game. Focus on balance, give cosmetics if you want some income, keep it simple. The game is more balanced right now than it’s ever been. And it still needs some work.. bo offense to iron mace, you guys are awesome, but y’all have a habit of breaking classes..
I disagree on the mobs.. in normal games you have cleared areas. The arena is a load of bs crammed in 1 space full of mobs that no1 wants to clear
You guys have no idea how rogue plays
You are out of your mind if you think wizard is in a good spot. He said fireball needs toned down because of overload no one is using overload even I who used overload sense it came out no longer uses it because of the nerf. I see a wizard every 5th game maybe
The PvP doesnt have enough depth to it to allow them to forgo PvE in Arena. The PvE allows creative strategies like hanging out in your spawn to ambush your opponent while they deal with mobs (they wont know precisely which room your team spawns in), aggro dumping with invis plays, using them as cover against a ranged comp, as blood bags for warlocks etc. It would get stale faster without the chests and mobs
Druid is a problem as even the best druid player arent playing the class to the fullest at all. The things you can do with it while having the very best survability in the game is disgusting.
The only reasin the game isnt in a horible state rn is because the class is hard to play
Warlock is pretty nuts rn.
Stop w keying bear and you will be fine
a member of staff saying he'd be cool with solos going away is a nice middle finger to the solo only players who are putting money in your pocket.
People have opinions, man. Odin not being a fan of solos is not the same as all of IronMace rolling up to you in a Benz wearing Ray-Bans and Rolexes to shout "Thanks for the money, nerd. Fuck you!"
Like, clearly the decision makers at Ironmace support solos being an official game mode - that's why it's in the game.
That was just in reference to Arena
please for the love of god don't make arena specific gear. That would completely ruin 2 major things about arena. 1. you don't have to interact with the dungeon to find gear if the best is arena specfic. 2. You won't have the same pvp as in the dungeon. You are supposed to practise dungeon pvp.
I work weekends and never got to try the arena
Just started watching and heard The end boss say the pve in the fight is how the games is, sorry you are just wrong.
As a solo cleric when I encounter a Warlock with a room full of mobs that he can use a s blood bags I can turn around and leave, its suicide to take that fight but in arena im locked in there with him. Give every class a movement or cathup mechanic or ranged option then its ok but until then the bull shit with pve where warlock or wizard can abuse it its just stupid, having an arena fight with a room full of mobs and a mini boss that a wizard pulls over to you and then goes invis is just stupid!
Yea but you have teammates it’s not like you’re solo clearing
@@bolenarrow9286 Actually it is as everyone that is not cleric just shoots over the mobs or escapes from them.
Nobody actually deals with mobs because they don't have to. Also that logic is very flawed, if I point out a that a class very weak in an area you cannot answer that with you have teammates. otherwise whenever someone says x class is too strong or weak we can just refer to you have teammates so its fine.
@@nickpcosta actual skill issue
@@xzxr4h go ahead tell me how someone without said skill issues, should do playing cleric should do then?
Better yet why dont you show me?
Warlocks having more curse dot damage spells would be cool imagine curse of strife or curse of wither or curse of famine could even take some ideas from warlocks affliction in wow
Hell yea, let’s get Unstable Affliction up in this mofo lol
Odin being head of PR explains a lot about ironmaces PR being so shit, guy seems like a douche
@@100ManSlayer-Mord solma or whatever his name is worse. I made one comment backed up by sourced material on how he was wrong about sorcerer and he started dropping F bombes on me. Never replied once I showed he was wrong.
@@Wake-Up47 I notice a lot of them act like the game is some untouchable behemoth because of their 2 months of FOTM fame back in the play tests. Now you have every content creator afraid to say anything negative about the game which inflates their ego more