Fascinating stuff! I never considered this theory, but it really makes more sense: though I suppose Túrin would be quite pouty about going back to Doriath, he probably would do it for Finduilas' sake
I've thought about what might happen if Túrin had made different choices and this is one theory I really like. Unfortunately, Túrin's greatest talent seemed to be for making bad decisions.
@@apeDLuffu Actually it is my own personal headcanon happy ending for Finduilas and Gwindor. 😅 Only the Curse of Morgoth was able to ruin a wonderful love story. First, Gwindor was stuck as a thrall in Angband for a while. It wore on him and made him age like a Man. Finduilas fell in love with Turin because of the Curse. I am sure she wouldn't have given him the time of day in a normal encounter. After they both die, they go to the Halls of Mandos, where they will linger until the time that they are permitted to reembody and return to their people. Obviously a reembodied Gwindor would be his old, handsome and sexy self. In Mandos, Finduilas will have completely recovered from traumatic experience with Turin. When they see each other again in Eldamar, the sparks will fly. They won't waste another day and they'll get married right away and start their family right away. Tolkien had always intended for Elves to only fall in love with one person in their lifetime. He had soul mates in mind. Finduilas should never have been attracted to another male, but the Curse got her. They will heal Mandos and live the life they were meant to live.😁👍
@@Enerdhil That was thoughtful and it's now part of my head cannon also. In the beginning of the Silmarillion, in the music of the Ainur, when they first make music (creating everything), it says that after the end of days, a greater music will be made. "Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright". A music played perfectly, without mistakes. This means that in the end, there really is a happy ending, that all things will be made right. Evil and bad things undone, beautiful music played aright. So Gwindor and Finduilas will be happy together.
@@frankmarshall-davis8400 Yes, but the Dagor Dagorath is before the happy ending. Turin will have his happy ending, as he slays Morgoth with Anglachel. #sweetrevenge
To follow your theory, maybe it was good for Turin to rescue Finduilas BECAUSE she loved him and he didn't love her -- to break out of his pattern of doing everything for personal gain or on a personal quest. Waking him up to the rest of the world, and finding value in it.
I’m glad to see you’re making content again. I haven’t checked in over half a year. I watched all the videos so I was watching when you slowed down. Now I have a bunch of videos to watch!! I’m excited!! Thank you!!
I’ve wondered about this as well. Your theory really does make sense. I just wonder what would’ve happened to Glaurung. Would Túrin still inevitably kill him?
It's Nar-GOTH-Rond in case you are still wondering, emphasis is on the second to last syllable if two distinct consonants follow each other (th/f + r), same as in iSILdur or pelARGir
I read this is a prophecy, that somehow if he'd helped Finduilas, things would have worked out for him. Maybe in the way you said, which is certainly a very logical way it could go, but maybe in some other. Prophecies don't always turn out in the most logical way! (E.g. 'not by the hand of Man will he fall'). I do tend towards the side of thinking that Morgoth's curse was a real power that was making Turin have bad luck, through the power that Morgoth had put into Middle Earth in general, though. And maybe Finduilas' elvish power could have shielded him from that.
I think Turin did love Finduilas, as you said Morgoth's curse had in a sense enhanced Turin's pride and reckless decisions But then again, maybe Turin would've still made bad decisions and Morgoth's curse would've still taken its full course.
Any good tragedy needs at least one cosmic turning point, where a little decision based around a character flaw has far reaching consequences, and the Children of Hurin is a masterclass of many moments like that - but this does seem to be the big one. I do wonder if Turin had better resolve if he could have withstood Glauron's dreadful geese and saved the princess, or did he just need the wit not to take his helm off? At any rate, he might have saved her after the fact, if he hadn't taken Glauron at his word and gone back to his homeland - it's not just that he didn't have a damsel escort, but I think the shame of his mistake in killing the tyrant overseer of his household without forethought of how much worse that made it for them, all on a dragon's advise, that also kept him from being willing to go to Doriath to face his family. And if only he knew what his sister looked like, the biggest tragedy could have been quite impossible...but who, other the the Dragon, could have foreseen that strange turn.
It isn't just that Turin makes bad choices, and if he was wiser there wouldn't have been a curse. His mother and sister also are cursed. Morgoth had a part and knowledge of the abilities of all the different Valar (and Maiar), but he turns turns them to evil purposes. Many of the Valar and Maiar are able to influence and prompt Elves and Men. Lorien is the master of visions and dreams. Ulmo speaks to everyone with music of water, although they may not understand it, they are drawn to it, and have a longing for the sea if they hear his horn play. Nienna brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. Olorin the Maiar is able to give Elves and men fair visions or promptings of wisdom that he puts into their hearts. Those that listen to him awake from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness. So if the Valar and Maiar have power to influence for good, then Morgoth can influence for evil. When the Nazgul would fly overhead in the Lord of the Rings, people would have an unsettling feeling of fear and dread. In The Children of Hurin, this is a part of Morgoth's curse: "The shadow of my thought shall lie upon them wherever they go, and my hate shall pursue them to the ends of the world. Upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair." Morgoth also called himself the Master of the fates in Arda, so he has some abilities to affect peoples fate in the world. But men don't belong to this world (they are called 'the guests'), and their ultimate fate lies beyond the circles of the world and in the end can be free from Morgoth. Morgoth's curse is a real thing, with him constantly using his influence to affect the mood, heart, thoughts, temperament and judgment of those he cursed. At the end of his life Turin said that he was "Blind, blind, groping since childhood in a dark mist of Morgoth!" It's not just a matter of Turin making bad decisions. About Finduilas standing between Turin and his fate. Remember that the mound where she was buried was beside Teiglin by the Crossings of Teiglin. When Turin was on his way to kill Glaurung, in between where he was and the ravine where he was going to attack the dragon was the mound. In the Children of Hurin he says "Haudh-en-Elleth! Does Finduilas lie still between me and my doom?" What Gwindor said to Turin might have more than one meaning, and in this sense Finduilas was physically in between him and his doom.
Bridge or no bridge in the end it would not have changed the ultimate fate of Nargothrond. In chapter 18 of the Silmarillion, it says "the Noldor did not yet comprehend the fullness of the power of Morgoth, nor understand that their unaided war upon him was without final hope, whether they hasted or delayed." So hiding, or going out and seeking battle, having a bridge or no bridge didn't make a difference because Nargothrond was doomed from the beginning. It was destined to fall before Gondolin, and even Gondolin fell even there was no bridge there making it easy to get to and find. Gondolin was surrounded and hidden by high mountains, and it was still doomed.
Fascinating stuff! I never considered this theory, but it really makes more sense: though I suppose Túrin would be quite pouty about going back to Doriath, he probably would do it for Finduilas' sake
I've thought about what might happen if Túrin had made different choices and this is one theory I really like. Unfortunately, Túrin's greatest talent seemed to be for making bad decisions.
Yep, with pride at the center of all of those bad decisions.
In the end, Gwindor and Finduilas are reembodied in Valinor, fall back in love, get married, have five kids, and live happily ever after.😁👍
What ? Is it true ? Please explain more
@@apeDLuffu
Actually it is my own personal headcanon happy ending for Finduilas and Gwindor. 😅
Only the Curse of Morgoth was able to ruin a wonderful love story. First, Gwindor was stuck as a thrall in Angband for a while. It wore on him and made him age like a Man. Finduilas fell in love with Turin because of the Curse. I am sure she wouldn't have given him the time of day in a normal encounter. After they both die, they go to the Halls of Mandos, where they will linger until the time that they are permitted to reembody and return to their people. Obviously a reembodied Gwindor would be his old, handsome and sexy self. In Mandos, Finduilas will have completely recovered from traumatic experience with Turin. When they see each other again in Eldamar, the sparks will fly. They won't waste another day and they'll get married right away and start their family right away.
Tolkien had always intended for Elves to only fall in love with one person in their lifetime. He had soul mates in mind. Finduilas should never have been attracted to another male, but the Curse got her. They will heal Mandos and live the life they were meant to live.😁👍
@@Enerdhil LMAO, but that could happen, ill take it, is ok tho 👍
@@Enerdhil That was thoughtful and it's now part of my head cannon also. In the beginning of the Silmarillion, in the music of the Ainur, when they first make music (creating everything), it says that after the end of days, a greater music will be made. "Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright". A music played perfectly, without mistakes. This means that in the end, there really is a happy ending, that all things will be made right. Evil and bad things undone, beautiful music played aright. So Gwindor and Finduilas will be happy together.
@@frankmarshall-davis8400
Yes, but the Dagor Dagorath is before the happy ending. Turin will have his happy ending, as he slays Morgoth with Anglachel. #sweetrevenge
To follow your theory, maybe it was good for Turin to rescue Finduilas BECAUSE she loved him and he didn't love her -- to break out of his pattern of doing everything for personal gain or on a personal quest. Waking him up to the rest of the world, and finding value in it.
Thanks for the thoughts!
I’m glad to see you’re making content again. I haven’t checked in over half a year. I watched all the videos so I was watching when you slowed down. Now I have a bunch of videos to watch!! I’m excited!! Thank you!!
I’ve wondered about this as well. Your theory really does make sense. I just wonder what would’ve happened to Glaurung. Would Túrin still inevitably kill him?
Nicely reasoned and as good a theory as anyone will present, I suspect.
Very nice theory. I got where you were going from the start, so obviously I agree that this would be the best explanation for it. :)
Great take on a topic I didn't even realize was an issue until I saw the video.
It's Nar-GOTH-Rond in case you are still wondering, emphasis is on the second to last syllable if two distinct consonants follow each other (th/f + r), same as in iSILdur or pelARGir
I read this is a prophecy, that somehow if he'd helped Finduilas, things would have worked out for him. Maybe in the way you said, which is certainly a very logical way it could go, but maybe in some other. Prophecies don't always turn out in the most logical way! (E.g. 'not by the hand of Man will he fall').
I do tend towards the side of thinking that Morgoth's curse was a real power that was making Turin have bad luck, through the power that Morgoth had put into Middle Earth in general, though. And maybe Finduilas' elvish power could have shielded him from that.
I think Turin did love Finduilas, as you said Morgoth's curse had in a sense enhanced Turin's pride and reckless decisions
But then again, maybe Turin would've still made bad decisions and Morgoth's curse would've still taken its full course.
Thanks, this theory makes sense!
Any good tragedy needs at least one cosmic turning point, where a little decision based around a character flaw has far reaching consequences, and the Children of Hurin is a masterclass of many moments like that - but this does seem to be the big one. I do wonder if Turin had better resolve if he could have withstood Glauron's dreadful geese and saved the princess, or did he just need the wit not to take his helm off? At any rate, he might have saved her after the fact, if he hadn't taken Glauron at his word and gone back to his homeland - it's not just that he didn't have a damsel escort, but I think the shame of his mistake in killing the tyrant overseer of his household without forethought of how much worse that made it for them, all on a dragon's advise, that also kept him from being willing to go to Doriath to face his family. And if only he knew what his sister looked like, the biggest tragedy could have been quite impossible...but who, other the the Dragon, could have foreseen that strange turn.
I would love to see you direct a Tolkien movie ⚔️
Hurin didn't die in that battle, he was captured, remember?
Yeah, I meant to say presumed dead lol
Always wondered about that myself.
Yup, kinda loose thread this one, has been bothering me too.
An elven princess might be too expensive for him. Endless jealousy. Ask Beren lol
It's wasted when he decides you are not a priority unlike beren who was ready to die.
It isn't just that Turin makes bad choices, and if he was wiser there wouldn't have been a curse. His mother and sister also are cursed.
Morgoth had a part and knowledge of the abilities of all the different Valar (and Maiar), but he turns turns them to evil purposes. Many of the Valar and Maiar are able to influence and prompt Elves and Men. Lorien is the master of visions and dreams. Ulmo speaks to everyone with music of water, although they may not understand it, they are drawn to it, and have a longing for the sea if they hear his horn play. Nienna brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. Olorin the Maiar is able to give Elves and men fair visions or promptings of wisdom that he puts into their hearts. Those that listen to him awake from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.
So if the Valar and Maiar have power to influence for good, then Morgoth can influence for evil. When the Nazgul would fly overhead in the Lord of the Rings, people would have an unsettling feeling of fear and dread.
In The Children of Hurin, this is a part of Morgoth's curse: "The shadow of my thought shall lie upon them wherever they go, and my hate shall pursue them to the ends of the world. Upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair." Morgoth also called himself the Master of the fates in Arda, so he has some abilities to affect peoples fate in the world. But men don't belong to this world (they are called 'the guests'), and their ultimate fate lies beyond the circles of the world and in the end can be free from Morgoth.
Morgoth's curse is a real thing, with him constantly using his influence to affect the mood, heart, thoughts, temperament and judgment of those he cursed. At the end of his life Turin said that he was "Blind, blind, groping since childhood in a dark mist of Morgoth!" It's not just a matter of Turin making bad decisions.
About Finduilas standing between Turin and his fate. Remember that the mound where she was buried was beside Teiglin by the Crossings of Teiglin. When Turin was on his way to kill Glaurung, in between where he was and the ravine where he was going to attack the dragon was the mound. In the Children of Hurin he says "Haudh-en-Elleth! Does Finduilas lie still between me and my doom?" What Gwindor said to Turin might have more than one meaning, and in this sense Finduilas was physically in between him and his doom.
I'll say what no one else will say. Turin was a moron. His idea to build a bridge for Nargothrond was the worst idea.
Bridge or no bridge in the end it would not have changed the ultimate fate of Nargothrond. In chapter 18 of the Silmarillion, it says "the Noldor did not yet comprehend the fullness of the power of Morgoth, nor understand that their unaided war upon him was without final hope, whether they hasted or delayed." So hiding, or going out and seeking battle, having a bridge or no bridge didn't make a difference because Nargothrond was doomed from the beginning. It was destined to fall before Gondolin, and even Gondolin fell even there was no bridge there making it easy to get to and find. Gondolin was surrounded and hidden by high mountains, and it was still doomed.