Loving my two-Rel t7x set-up. John is bang on when he talks about speed and added depth. It transformed my already-great speakers. Love these short videos by REL. Always thought provoking.
We're glad to hear that you are enjoying our videos, and that the T/7x are performing well in your system! Feel free to reach out if you have any questions.
I agree John, I've loved 2 channel sound all my life. I've owned some respectable "blue-collar" speakers, (Advent, KLH, Cerwin-Vega) but when I went 2.1 (with subwoofer) I found another dimension of sound. Almost like adding texture and depth to my music. Well said sir.
When I take my two REL subs out of my stereo system, the soundstage literally collapses. Can't enjoy my music (vinyl records) without them and I am so happy with my RELs! 🙂
We're glad to hear that you are enjoying the performance of your T/7i! If you have any questions about the subwoofer then feel free to reach out and we will be happy to assist.
John is right about subwoofers adding space when "it is done properly", but that "properly" isn't proprietary or exclusive to REL products, other manufactures of quality subs can and do perform this same sense when set up properly.
This is true, though it does require a subwoofer that is exceptionally fast and responsive, and able to blend with the system's main loudspeakers in a truly seamless way. Some subwoofers from other manufacturers can achieve this, though every REL model is designed with this priority in mind.
That was my though when I demoed a MA AV system based on their Radius 90 speakers and the big matching MA 390 sub. To me the sub did not sound integrated into the soundstage in stereo. It was good in AV. I returned to compare the MA sub to a REL and could instantly tell the soundstage was more refined and 3D with the REL T Zero. It was better value for money as well as being smaller. I have since bought a second REL T Zero (Mk 3) and tuned both RELs as a stereo set up with the special cables and with help from the REL after sales team in the U.K. The step up in sound quality was about 50% again over a single sub. I then needed to add a very good stereo amp with direct in from the AV preamp to drive my front set up to its optimum potential. The sound with classical music of the MA Radius 90s on their stands with a T Zero wired to each is superb. The new amp is a Marantz 8006 so the stereo system is now 170w per channel into 8 ohms. Very deep music such as a cathedral organ is amazing. Shut your eyes and you can imagine you are in that huge space. My only constraint is my medium sized lounge. I think it would be even more impressive in a larger room. Of course, I don’t crank up the volume or I’d be deaf. The immense power reserve of this set up ensures the true dynamics of top end vinyl and MQA hiRes are shown off to their full potential. The amp doesn’t need to go above about 11 o’clock. The AV amp was often at 2 o’clock as the little MAs are inefficient to drive. My good Marantz AV amp couldn’t achieve this dynamic alone. Using the 8006 in either front drive mode and especially in stereo makes a real difference. The downside was the extra £1500 for the amp and second sub. The phono preamp stage of the 8006 is so good that I have disconnected my iFi phono preamp which is also very good but an unnecessary extra music stage. For HiRes I use an iFi signature DAC.
Oh John, thanks for the explanation of how subs work w mains and why crossing over low is the way to set them. W my OPEN BAFFEL PAP QUINTETS I have the T9X’s are crossed over at around 35 Hz.
I’m sure this was mentioned by someone, but the space blooms also simply because you crossed over to the sub, and the AMP works a lot less effortlessly to drive the main speakers - which are now working a lot more effortlessly because it doesn’t have to produce the low end. Accordingly, REL has many “sub” woofers, that aren’t actually “sub” woofers…. And they “sound” great because the amps in the woofer are doing a specific part of the range, leaving the AMP or / and in the processor/pre - and main speakers to manage the other part. This alone is a reason worth putting a sub in the system. Now, the question one should ask, is how does it sound when the mains are driven full range and a real “sub”woofer (below 20Hz) is in the system. That’s where the rubber meets the road.
Why does the amp have to work less? Because the overall volume can be set lower now that you have additional volume added by the sub? (so the amp was on 10 before but now the sub is adding some volume, the amp can now run on 7 yet still give the impression of the same overall volume in the room?)
@@tested211 - great question... not exactly on your summation. remember, if you've level matched all speakers to, say, 75db, your amp has to drive all channels at once (when necessary) to hit that level. (No one listens continually at that level though...that more peak level.) if you take the sub out of equation (since it has its own amp), the Amp has less work to do. The main speakers still need to be driven at the same volume to reach 75 db, though. (Or in your illustration, the AMP still needs to be on 10, its just doing it more effortlessly / efficiently.) So, it's more like, there's more reserve power for the mains when the AMP doesn't have to drive sub 80 hz, let alone sub 20 hz frequencies. here's a great way to describe it. Imagine running a 100 yard dash in 10 seconds... with a 20 lb weigh vest on. Take off the weight vest . . . you still run the 100 yrs in 10 secs (just takes less effort). :) hope that helps.
That was a very interesting explanation. I'm off to demo a T9x tomorrow. Not sure how much of an improvement a sub will make as my main speakers go down pretty low anyway.
Thank you for your interest in REL, and we hope that you like the performance of the T/9x during your demo! If you have any questions about it then feel free to let us know and we will be happy to assist.
The 212/SX can perform well in a 400 square foot room, though the ideal subwoofer for your system will depend on a few additional variables. When you have a chance, please write in to contactus@rel.net and we will be happy to discuss the ideal subwoofer pairing for your system.
Thank you for reaching out. Many musical instruments have fundamental frequencies below 60Hz, such as a piano, bass (upright double bass and bass guitar), organ, and many percussion instruments to name a few. By adding a subwoofer, your home audio system will be enabled to produce output closer to the full range of human hearing, which will more accurately produce the fundamental frequencies of many instruments while also accurately reproducing the reverberations and resonances that occur when these instruments are played in a room. We hope that this helps, but if you have any additional questions about subwoofers or how to incorporate a REL subwoofer into your system then feel free to write in to contactus@rel.net and we will be happy to assist.
I don't think so because I have two s812's paired with the Tanoy Ardens which have 15" drivers in what I would say a small 15 x 30 foot room and they still sound amazing. Looking forward to moving into a place with a bigger listening space but for now I couldn't be happier. Macintosh c2600, mono block mc275, 2 rel s812's and the Tannoy Ardens and they sound amazing together. Happy Listening
This same effect can be achieved in small listening rooms, as long as you are using the right sized sub for your room and speakers. If you would like assistance with determining the ideal subwoofer match for your system, then feel free to write in to contactus@rel.net and we will be happy to assist.
Love this content from such a knowledgeable and respected guru 👍🏻 keep up the great work John!
Loving my two-Rel t7x set-up. John is bang on when he talks about speed and added depth. It transformed my already-great speakers. Love these short videos by REL. Always thought provoking.
We're glad to hear that you are enjoying our videos, and that the T/7x are performing well in your system! Feel free to reach out if you have any questions.
I agree John, I've loved 2 channel sound all my life. I've owned some respectable "blue-collar" speakers, (Advent, KLH, Cerwin-Vega) but when I went 2.1 (with subwoofer) I found another dimension of sound. Almost like adding texture and depth to my music. Well said sir.
Excellent video about an excellent subwoofer. Love these short tech talks!
When I take my two REL subs out of my stereo system, the soundstage literally collapses. Can't enjoy my music (vinyl records) without them and I am so happy with my RELs! 🙂
We are glad to hear that you are enjoying your RELs!
Having a REL for now two years, I couldn’t be happier with my choice. For music and theater (T7i).
We're glad to hear that you are enjoying the performance of your T/7i! If you have any questions about the subwoofer then feel free to reach out and we will be happy to assist.
@@RELAcoustics Thank you. I just bought the Sneakers CD to fine tune my REL a step further. I may have some question during the process. 😉
Can't listen to my B&W's without them now. Looking forward to adding a Predator 1508 to pair with my two S3's Sho subs.
We are glad to hear that you are enjoying the performance of the S/3s in your system!
John is right about subwoofers adding space when "it is done properly", but that "properly" isn't proprietary or exclusive to REL products, other manufactures of quality subs can and do perform this same sense when set up properly.
This is true, though it does require a subwoofer that is exceptionally fast and responsive, and able to blend with the system's main loudspeakers in a truly seamless way. Some subwoofers from other manufacturers can achieve this, though every REL model is designed with this priority in mind.
That was my though when I demoed a MA AV system based on their Radius 90 speakers and the big matching MA 390 sub. To me the sub did not sound integrated into the soundstage in stereo. It was good in AV.
I returned to compare the MA sub to a REL and could instantly tell the soundstage was more refined and 3D with the REL T Zero. It was better value for money as well as being smaller. I have since bought a second REL T Zero (Mk 3) and tuned both RELs as a stereo set up with the special cables and with help from the REL after sales team in the U.K.
The step up in sound quality was about 50% again over a single sub. I then needed to add a very good stereo amp with direct in from the AV preamp to drive my front set up to its optimum potential.
The sound with classical music of the MA Radius 90s on their stands with a T Zero wired to each is superb. The new amp is a Marantz 8006 so the stereo system is now 170w per channel into 8 ohms.
Very deep music such as a cathedral organ is amazing. Shut your eyes and you can imagine you are in that huge space.
My only constraint is my medium sized lounge. I think it would be even more impressive in a larger room. Of course, I don’t crank up the volume or I’d be deaf. The immense power reserve of this set up ensures the true dynamics of top end vinyl and MQA hiRes are shown off to their full potential. The amp doesn’t need to go above about 11 o’clock. The AV amp was often at 2 o’clock as the little MAs are inefficient to drive.
My good Marantz AV amp couldn’t achieve this dynamic alone.
Using the 8006 in either front drive mode and especially in stereo makes a real difference. The downside was the extra £1500 for the amp and second sub.
The phono preamp stage of the 8006 is so good that I have disconnected my iFi phono preamp which is also very good but an unnecessary extra music stage. For HiRes I use an iFi signature DAC.
Oh John, thanks for the explanation of how subs work w mains and why crossing over low is the way to set them. W my OPEN BAFFEL PAP QUINTETS I have the T9X’s are crossed over at around 35 Hz.
I’m sure this was mentioned by someone, but the space blooms also simply because you crossed over to the sub, and the AMP works a lot less effortlessly to drive the main speakers - which are now working a lot more effortlessly because it doesn’t have to produce the low end.
Accordingly, REL has many “sub” woofers, that aren’t actually “sub” woofers…. And they “sound” great because the amps in the woofer are doing a specific part of the range, leaving the AMP or / and in the processor/pre - and main speakers to manage the other part.
This alone is a reason worth putting a sub in the system.
Now, the question one should ask, is how does it sound when the mains are driven full range and a real “sub”woofer (below 20Hz) is in the system.
That’s where the rubber meets the road.
Why does the amp have to work less? Because the overall volume can be set lower now that you have additional volume added by the sub? (so the amp was on 10 before but now the sub is adding some volume, the amp can now run on 7 yet still give the impression of the same overall volume in the room?)
@@tested211 - great question...
not exactly on your summation.
remember, if you've level matched all speakers to, say, 75db, your amp has to drive all channels at once (when necessary) to hit that level. (No one listens continually at that level though...that more peak level.)
if you take the sub out of equation (since it has its own amp), the Amp has less work to do.
The main speakers still need to be driven at the same volume to reach 75 db, though. (Or in your illustration, the AMP still needs to be on 10, its just doing it more effortlessly / efficiently.)
So, it's more like, there's more reserve power for the mains when the AMP doesn't have to drive sub 80 hz, let alone sub 20 hz frequencies.
here's a great way to describe it.
Imagine running a 100 yard dash in 10 seconds... with a 20 lb weigh vest on.
Take off the weight vest . . . you still run the 100 yrs in 10 secs (just takes less effort). :)
hope that helps.
Can’t wait to get a Rel sub…but I’ve first got to get my room modes under (better) control.
love our John
so much❤️
That was a very interesting explanation. I'm off to demo a T9x tomorrow. Not sure how much of an improvement a sub will make as my main speakers go down pretty low anyway.
Thank you for your interest in REL, and we hope that you like the performance of the T/9x during your demo! If you have any questions about it then feel free to let us know and we will be happy to assist.
Hi John, would the 212/SX be appropriate for a 400 square foot room?
You can email REL and give them your room dimensions and speakers and they will give you recommendations. They were quick to respond to me. Good luck
The 212/SX can perform well in a 400 square foot room, though the ideal subwoofer for your system will depend on a few additional variables. When you have a chance, please write in to contactus@rel.net and we will be happy to discuss the ideal subwoofer pairing for your system.
Q: The sense of space by reflected back sound shall not be unique by low frequency sound wave only?
Q: Most musical materials lack of
Thank you for reaching out. Many musical instruments have fundamental frequencies below 60Hz, such as a piano, bass (upright double bass and bass guitar), organ, and many percussion instruments to name a few. By adding a subwoofer, your home audio system will be enabled to produce output closer to the full range of human hearing, which will more accurately produce the fundamental frequencies of many instruments while also accurately reproducing the reverberations and resonances that occur when these instruments are played in a room.
We hope that this helps, but if you have any additional questions about subwoofers or how to incorporate a REL subwoofer into your system then feel free to write in to contactus@rel.net and we will be happy to assist.
So does this only works in very large rooms
I don't think so because I have two s812's paired with the Tanoy Ardens which have 15" drivers in what I would say a small 15 x 30 foot room and they still sound amazing. Looking forward to moving into a place with a bigger listening space but for now I couldn't be happier. Macintosh c2600, mono block mc275, 2 rel s812's and the Tannoy Ardens and they sound amazing together. Happy Listening
This same effect can be achieved in small listening rooms, as long as you are using the right sized sub for your room and speakers. If you would like assistance with determining the ideal subwoofer match for your system, then feel free to write in to contactus@rel.net and we will be happy to assist.
I love my no 25 ;)