I can just imagine, some bosmer stumbling across a necromancer, who then tries to impress them with his craft. "BEHOLD, the Power of the undea-- Wait... what are you doing?! Stop! Stop eating the people I resurrected!!!"
Telvanni absolutely enslave Dunmer. One of the main quests in Morrowind is about buying a Dunmer slave from a Telvanni slave market and pretending that she is a telvanni princess to gain the allegiance of one of the Ashlander tribes.
actually one of the more annoying tribes to convince i believe you but i dont care you dont get the title unless you get me a pretty bride (more petty than a lot of noble houses lol)
Funniest part is if you ask the Tevanni about actually getting a Telvanni princess to marry the ashlander, the Telvanni will practically attack you. lol
@@OurHourglass well, technically it is there's a song creator that uses npc dialog to create music. Young scrolls, in this case the song being "The Fine."
@@GunGun-cf3ss I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. She was trying to save you 1000 septims. "See... He's not REALLY dead." *nervous vampire chuckles*
I think actual Necromancy should be a separate skill tree from conjuring Daedric creatures. One is corruption of a dead body, while the other is a pact with a creature from another realm.
I still remember when I did the College quest line right as Savos was killed, then a dragon spawned and all the wizards started fighting it, SOMEONE rose Savos from the dead and had his corpse use fisticuffs on the dragon. But nope, the College doesn't practice necromancy!
29:30 I'd also assume that since High Rock takes a lot of inspiration from France, some of the Dungeons may be deep maze-like catacombs lined with skulls and bones that would be perfect hideouts for Necromancers. I could even see a quest where a priest of Arkay sends you into catacombs beneath the chapel undercroft to get rid of a necromancer causing an infestation of undead in the town, you find a trap door that leads to the basement of one of the town's citizens, learning the necromancer's identity. You leave the house to tell the priest only to find that the town is on fire and the newly reanimated townsfolk are roaming the streets so you have to cut them down. You find the injured priest who tells you that he knows who the necromancer is and there's a nearby battlefield where the Necromancer (once a battlemage) and his brother fought for the lord of a nearby city, and that he blames the rest of the village for not fighting with them. You chase him down to the battlefield and fight him while he raises undead knights and soldiers to aid himself.
Speaking of Bosmer, IRL cannibalism isn’t “simply” a question of ethics. It’s a health issue. That’s why it’s so rare in all mammals. Our bodies contain a bunch if viruses and microbes that get us very sick if we eat our own.
@@ltloxa1159 nah still there's something weird about stuff revolving around dead things also notice how people don't just cook it and eat it it's because there's Just something wrong about eating people it's pretty obvious it's just wrong because you could cook it but it's still cannibalism which is wrong and you are one weird fucker if you think it's anywhere near okay
See your argument is that because we specifically not eat human, but we eat other meat, that is proof that cannibalism is inheretly weird. That would be true if wasn't for the fact that we naturally prefere any meat that is not from predators. Because go figure, any predator meat is less healthy than vegetarians. Furthermore the biological advantage for not wanting to eat your own kind exists because a decease that just killed a human is more likely to be able to kill a human than a decease that just killed something else. Also the unwillingness to eat someone of the same species decreases interspecies violence.
Draughr in Skyrim isn't always Dragon Cult related either. The draughr around Otar the Mad where there to stop intruders from letting Otar out of its sarcophagus. So draughr does not equal Dragon Cult. I mean Red Eagle sure wasn't involved with the Cult and neither was Fjori and Holgeir.
Otar was most certainly part of The Dragon Cult, as were most ancient Nords, he was probably locked up during the reign of dragons due to, well, his madness.
@@xeonespydonum4995 Read my comments again. I never said Otar wasn't. Being a Dragon Priest kind off proves he was don't you think? I simply meant the draughr around him. They weren't created to be servants but rather became draughr to keep him locked up.
I feel like Red Eagle is just them not bothering putting more ressources on Red Eagle. He definitely is Undead but he might not actually be a draugr in lore. Good points however
@Prey R Not at all neccerly all the time. Fjori, Holgeir, Red Eagle and Olaf One-Eye where all already dead which "Among the Draugr" tells would not be the case for the draugr serving priests. It seems more likely that there are multiple ways a draugr can be made and the cult's version was to become batteries but otherwise they could appear naturally. Either as the individual had a great purpose of standing guard forever like the draugr in Otar the Mads crypt or attacking intruders disturbing their rest.
There was a sith Lord called the Lord of pain because he actually came back to life multiple times just because he hated the world so imagine if he had more time ( he was convinced to finally let go because they literally could only kill him by convincing him that you've out lived your time it's time to rest and he finally gave in )
Necromancy is a tool, a very powerful tool. It just so happens that a lot evil is done through this magic. I would like to see more necromancers that do good. Kindof like the Necros from the Diablo lore. How they study their whole lives to resist corruption.
I remember a bit in one game from forever ago where necromancy was an intregal part of a region. Basically, the living were given a decent life if they would agree to be brought back after death and be part of the work force. Something about the location was unbearable for the living and the dead had no real reason to complain.
About the illusion thing, i actually played a character who’s parents were in the imperial army who used illusion, but only calm and courage spells, cause they were told horror stories of hardened soldiers screaming in fear or sobbing cause they were forced to kill their best friends, however one of the parents having been a healer taught them to use calm spells to soothe the injured and courage to help deal with unhealthy fears, having been trained by a healer and a soldier they were a spellblade with no offensive magics, honestly one of the best roleplay experiences i’ve had, really felt like setting those philosophical limits made them come to life
One thing that they didn't seem to know is that your corpse isn't just trash, old cities had massive bone graveyards underneath and we still don't know what for, some say they were used like batteries
Prisoner: Hey, we did not consent to being jailed, and under a blood-hungry watchdog who may use our bodies after we're dead! Sybille Stentor: *Am I a joke to you?*
I do enjoy these podcasts,especially ones on topics that I myself am interested in.Necromancy is my favorite type of magic because it's just fascinating,because it's not just raising the dead,its defined as influencing life energies,and this means healing magic,soul stealing, as well as other things.Although raising the dead is just the best part.
that was all the debate about illegal things please "evil" people /psychopaths while legal things allow benevolent people to overwhelm the wrong doers...however what if a behaviour turns you evil anyway ? like do drugs make people socialy better ? should we legalize dopping for all ? centuries ago cocaine/opium were legal medicines , even meth started as medicine till states realized the social risks of those substances... What if Necromancy was just a way to talk again to our dead loved ones ? what could be wrong about talking to my grand-grand-grand-grand- grand father ?
@@redcapetimetraveler7688 Well, that's where regulations come into play. Anything made illegal has no regulations and as such anything goes. Legalise drugs and regulate their intake, use, potency etc to levels that are considered 'safe'. If exposing yourself to same substances made legal harms you somehow, I'd say you would've hurt yourself sooner or later at some point regardless. Edit: At the very least, you'd be more inclined to share with your doctor since it wouldn't be a taboo, with legal consequences anymore, making treatment, or preventative options a lot more likely this time round. Edit 2: Teaching an art or craft with potential to harm won't necessarily lead to someone becoming 'evil', reasons for people doing what they do is always multifaceted and complex. I mean, if I learn MMA, or learn to use a pistol, I'm not going to be any more inclined to kill any more than if I'd not learnt those things. If I snapped, regardless of whether I was trained in the art of hurting people or not, the deed would still be done. The training would just make me a little better at it. If your argument is therefore that being better at killing is too great a hazard, then I'd argue that a society with mandatory training would be equally better at defending themselves. I'd imagine legalising necromancy would have the same effect, it would be regulated in how it is taught at what ever accounts for schools in what ever province in Tamriel. You'd have more people knowing the ethics and uses of necromancy as opposed to just doing your own thing. A knowledgeable populace might be able to even curb rogue necromancy more effectively simply in lieu of having a better understanding of how it works. That's my opinion anyway.
I think the black arts on trial (or dark arts, can't remember which) was the only skill book that I thoroughly enjoyed reading in an elder scrolls game. Seeing the different arguments was pretty cool, then discovering the orc was a necromancer herself was also interesting. Traven made the right call.
Do alternate theory video on if Almalexia didn't kill Sotha Sil. 😊 Lets say you show up and as soon as you enter his room Almalexia attacks you and Sotha Sil. You both defeat her. Would he have successfully created a mechanical heart and new tools? If so would he have shared with Vivec? Would he have made himself into a completely mechanical being instead?
Well in the elder scrolls legends it is revealed he did finish a mechanical heart with new tools, it's what was keeping the clockwork city alive into the fourth era, also kind of implied that old Set actually uploaded himself into the mainframe of the city, why he was silent when Almalexia killed him was his body was just an empty shell, or that how the theory goes.
Some of the bodies literally thank you when you kill them and most moan in pain while resurrected I didn't exactly get along with him but I have a hard time believing in any scenario it would feel ethical if I saw my grampa's body working in a field constantly moaning in pain and begging for death.
It emplys that in skyrim, they are constantly groaning in pain when you resurrect them and will sometimes whisper "Thank... You..." When they are killed
10:45 Skyrim is so frustrating in terms of giving us the straight answer; the court wizard of Windhelm says that "necromancy has been outlawed for hundreds of years" while Phinius Gestur (butchered his name), the conjuration teacher at the College of Winterhold, says that "that old law died out with the Mages' Guild." You're killing my immersion, Smalls.
Love these! In one of your Podcasts, you guys should explore what exactly is an Elder Scroll; I think it would be super interesting to hear your guys’ take on what they are, and what they do!
Boys I know these podcasts don’t get as many views as your smaller edited videos but in my opinion these podcasts are the best elder scrolls content on RUclips by far.
In a lot of fantasy magic systems I often want there to be ethical necromancy because of the shear practical usage. Something we don't see in elder scrolls much is the raising of animals. Imagine skeletal horses that don't need rest or fodder. Like, for all the uses mounts and pack animals and beasts of burden had, imagine the life changing benefits of having common access to a prime plow-pulling bull to till your farmland that you don't need to feed. For sentient being necromancy, imagine this scenario: You're a farmer who's family has worked the land for generations. Because you're poor farmers your little village has maybe ten guys with maybe one full kit between them, maybe a couple of iron swords or spears, otherwise all your metal goes into pitchforks and horseshoes. 30 armed raiders show up, riding in, coming to pillage the village. You would be doomed, but you run to the graveyard where generations of your family is buried, and activate a glyph. Dozens upon dozens of ghosts, ghosts of people who were born and lived and died in that village over centuries, spring from the ground and save their living descendants. When you die, your family and neighbors know that you wanted to be added to their number, tied to that glyph and set to rest in peaceful slumber until called in a time of need to serve and save the living.
20:20 It is indeed the ultimate flex, I used to capture the souls of any named characters I killed. Then I'd enchant item with their soul and name it after them. I capture Ancano's soul every time
The cult of the black worm would fit nice as a counterpart to Hammerfell's mage guild, would help popularise evil playtgroughs, maybe even make necromancy a viable school of magic
Honestly, it all boils down to whether or not you are torturing a soul or just animating dead meat; both _can_ be used for good, but only torturing a soul starts at a karmic net negative. If it's just puppeting a corpse with no effect on the soul, then it is morally neutral but culturally debatable. Even if it is harming the soul, that still makes it less "evil" than Enchanting, and no one seems to have a problem with that.
For my enchanting, the only time I soul-trap is when I am killing necromancers, or someone entirely evil. There are more than enough soul gems to be found in chests, etc. Although I had never thought much about it until I went to the soul cairn.
I pretty strongly agree with Scott's take here, morality in the Elder Scrolls especially for something as broad in application as necromancy is simply not black and white. It is typically evil, though there can be good characters (or anti-hero depending on how you class her) like Serana who use it a lot and aren't simply "evil"
In my mind there are two main forms of reanimation: binding the soul to the body, and reanimated the body using some other magicka forces. The dead thrall spell would be an example of actually binding the soul back to the body, since it maintains the tissue and lasts semi-permanently; simple reanimation spells just use an extension the summoner's magicka or soul to control the body. You all talk about similar ideas, but that's my thought
Listening to you Guys makes me feel thatthe weirdness with all useable magic in elder scrolls stems from the time when elder scrolls basically used dungeons and dragons magic and later trying to have something of their own and simplifying the system in later games
I hope the next podcast is on Aka or the Time God, specifically on how they all may be the same and not at the same time and their own connections to Lorkhan or the representative of Space, as both together represent Space-Time.
Fudgemuppet could in fact achieve a triumpherance of perfection. Keep Camel on fulltime and rid themselves of that "not-so-fresh-feeling"...that is to say...their red problem down-under.
I just had a coworker ask me what I was listening to and after I told him, he asked what's the point in arguing over the ethics of something that doesn't exist. I think this video is proof enough that debating the ethics of bending reality, the elements, life, etc is far more entertaining than most anything in the real world. It's the same reason why I can remember the history and politics of Tamriel, but I can barely remember either of those thing when in reference to reality. I mean, why would I talk about how a bunch of old dudes signed a piece of paper when I can talk about Humans and Elves, and Argonians and other races fighting against flying, fire breathing lizards that can also cast spells? I mean, which one sounds more interesting?
Serana and her mother are necromancers and they seem to be nice relatively speaking. Also what if you become a litch by killing bandits in various pain full ways keep in mind bandits kill, loot and rape without remorse so you can become a litch with a large number of captured bandits.
I think now that you guys have covered both Meridia and Necromancy as a whole, maybe we could get a podcast on Stendarr? I may be a bit biased, but I find Stendarr and his Vigilants/The Dawnguard are some of the most interesting lore regarding any of The Divines.
The thing with TES is that the nature of life in their is that it is eternal. The Et'Ada existed to harvest souls (life force) and gather it to the various planes of existence seemingly to amass armies for the purposes of a Ragnarok-style war that occurs at the end of each Kalpa. This is why many people's have an afterlife realm of their own but are only severed from aNirn upon their death and by being claimed by an Et'Ada. This feeds into the fact that mortals are not mortal at all and the inhabitants of Nirn are no different to Daedra. Therefore, Necromancy in TES is not bringing anyone back from the dead. Instead, it returns them to their body or prevents the transition of the lifeforce to another realm by trapping it in Nirn as seen with what people call ghosts. This would mean that spirits in TES are not of the dead, but of the living. A continuation of the life they already had. So is it evil? The very word requires a concept of right and wrong which can only be determined by someone in authority. Given that Nirn has no highest deity to set down the rules for morality there is no good or evil acts. So the actual question should be, is Necromancy cruel? Given that you can pull someone from a pleasant talk like Sovngarde against their will and force them back into Nirn it can be seen as cruel. But likewise, you may pull someone out of realms which they'd be glad to be free of.
I think what they were saying about consent applies to that. Arondil was... using his victims' ghosts, ripping them from their mortal shells and forcing them to serve him. Ghosts are, effectively, physical manifestations of the person's soul. He's effectively raping their soul twice over; once by ripping it from their body and binding them to his will, and again by forcing them to sleep with him. Arondil's necromancy was evil because be was using it with evil intentions.
I started a Molag Bal devotee/vampire playthrough the other night; focusing mostly on conjuration, destruction and 1h. I mainly use the conjuration for soul trap purposes, I don't like using zombies as cannon fodder to potentially steal my melee XP and get in the way of my frost spells EDIT: I make an exception for Nazeem, whom I will sometimes amuse myself with by raising him as a dread thrall and having him follow me around. Asshole only goes to the Cloud District when I do now.
I've always wanted there to be a rle indepth and interesting gameplay mode to make a necromancer build work. Wish the thralls didn't dissolve afterwards so you could have a familiar throughout the game if you kept Rezing them
Just use the aetherium crown with the ritual stone in skyrim, put it on to res any level creature they don't dissolve after death and you should be able to unequip then reequip the crown to use it more than once a day
i remember colin vineben talked to a ghost, i think her name was delia or something, was that a ghost he summoned from her body or was it just there? just trying to remember, he gives a good description of someone reaching out for magika.
I would like to see how FudgeMuppet does a character build based around Link from The Legend of Zelda. Maximizing the strength of the Master Sword is a must.
I remember reading two comments, on Reddit or RUclips, I forgot where. They describe necromancy in a great way. “Remember guys, necromancy is just a really determined healer” And “Necromancy is just a really late healer.”
I always like to think that white souls, when used to fuel enchanted equipment, are not actually housed inside the equipment. The soul's latent magicka is used as fuel while the souls themselves are sent off to Aetherius. Black soul gems can carry the souls of mortals, but the corruption of the black gem corrupts the soul inside, as such they are sent off to the Soul Cairn since the soul would become too corrupted to enter Aetherius.
I think the general idea is that "white souls" aren't conscious once they leave the body. They are just magicka, which it appears is the energy of creation.
For my only Skyrim playthrough, in my head cannon my Altmer character was saved as a child as his parents protected him from an attack and when his dad was killed he begged his wife to resurrect him with her conjugation magic. She did and he continued to fight. They both fought to the death so my character could flee. Seems like an ethical use🤷♂️
14:30 I don't think sentience is relevant to soul gems but that is what I thought. Because giants only require a greater soul gem but the mammoths they herd have a grand soul.
Just the fact that a captured soul will eventually will be claimed by the Ideal Master and be stuck in the Soul Cairn for eternity, makes it a dark evil art. These souls won't move on to their chosen plane of Aetherius, being in perpetual torment. So, there's no question that it's evil. The cultural identity augment, is just an excuse to justify those actions.
I'd argue that there are many that don't deserve to ascend and should be stuck in the Soul Cairn for their actions. Bandits, serial killers, Thalmor, etc.
@@ulyssesthepagan7873 Normally, sure. They won't if they're soul trapped before dying. There are plenty of Nords in the Soul Cairn and some talk about how one minute they were fighting a necromancer and the next thing they knew they ended up in the Soul Cairn.
@@TheScienceguy77 I was referring to your comment that some deserve to be soul trapped. According to Shor it doesn't matter if they died fighting, they're welcome to his domain. For any Nord that follows the belief of Sovngarde that would be complete torment for an eternity. Take Kodlak Whitemane he was distraught that his soul was claimed by Hircine. No one deserves such endless suffering. So necromancy used on good or evil individuals is immoral.
You know what would be cool is friendly necromancer who makes friends with spirits that can't move on on their own. I'm not sure if there's a practical way to be able to do that seeing as befriending a spirit usually involves helping them move on but still seems like an interesting idea to play around with.
I agree with Michael that it would be inherently evil think of what the grey beards say about the dragon rend shout, what would they say about the soul rend shout? You would be taking that magic and energy into your own soul
In Skyrim when you use a necromancy spell on a person, said person is never fully returned to their former selves. In my earliest playthrough; to empower The Ebony Blade I would kill Lydia, raise her with the Dead Thrall spell and kill her again. When raised she doesn't speak only moan and you can't interact with her (or anybody you raise). When you kill her she says "thank you" in a ghastly voice. That's the little bit of her soul that was ripped from the aether to restore her body to "life". The resurrection spell mod however; shows a clear difference. When I kill Lydia and raise her with the resurrection spell, her soul is fully restored. She doesn't glow with that ghostly blue, is fully interactive and speaking normally. Necromancy in my opinion is forced resurrection. That's why it's effects seem limited, especially in Skyrim where the raised subject dies and turns to ash after a set time. Save for The Dead Thrall spell wherein the body remain intact when the subject is killed.
@@zombiedemon1762 yes sort although that's more stendarr in TES Arkay just hates it when people don't die like vampires lore is just Molag Bal trying to spite Arkay
Short answer: yes Long Answer: between the slode (the slug people) the wolf queen, the unseen masters, the daedra, it isn't something that should practiced it always trambles upon the design of Arkay. To quote a song 🎵" Who Wants to Live, Forever?"
Regarding dunmer slaves: Dunmer can absolutely be slaves in Telvanni territory. There's a quest in *Morrowind* where you can purchase a dunmer slave to be an ashkhan's wife.
I can just imagine, some bosmer stumbling across a necromancer, who then tries to impress them with his craft.
"BEHOLD, the Power of the undea--
Wait... what are you doing?! Stop! Stop eating the people I resurrected!!!"
Poor bastard that got resurrected just to get eaten.
Reverse zombies
Isn't their cannibalism religious?
More like quit resurrecting the people I just ate. I don't think they're going to be too happy with their consumer
@@Pragabond Worst Day ever, when a necromancer reanimates your breakfast... while it is still in your stomach.
Telvanni absolutely enslave Dunmer. One of the main quests in Morrowind is about buying a Dunmer slave from a Telvanni slave market and pretending that she is a telvanni princess to gain the allegiance of one of the Ashlander tribes.
Nice catch
actually one of the more annoying tribes to convince
i believe you but i dont care you dont get the title unless you get me a pretty bride (more petty than a lot of noble houses lol)
And part take in Necromancy.
Funniest part is if you ask the Tevanni about actually getting a Telvanni princess to marry the ashlander, the Telvanni will practically attack you. lol
@@publiusdos5925 how are they so based bros?
Lmfao, Scott got so deep into defending necromancy he didn’t even realize Michael was agreeing with him
Which part was that? All I seen was a guy who cares way too much about a bandits soul lol
Necromancy is just healing with really bad timing.
Restorative necromancy is a perfectly valid school of magic.
@@davidleroth8644 and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise!
Top tier comment right here
@@smolaether But my lord told me otherwise
I like it more like necromancy is just healing without giving up
To bring you back, I'll learn the darkest arts. Whatever the price is, I'm prepared to pay.
What's the fine for necrophilia in this part of Tamriel? ~~~
Sounds like a lyric.
@@OurHourglass well, technically it is there's a song creator that uses npc dialog to create music. Young scrolls, in this case the song being "The Fine."
Would you really be bringing the person back as they were. Seems like a heavy price for a bad reward
I look at Arkay, and I spit in his face~
Mannimarco and the Order of the Black Worm loves Necromancy. I love the Mages Guild storyline in Oblivion.
I really love the mages guild questline too! But that final boss fight it's just so disappointing... But still is one of my favorite questline ever
@@drnecrotery3228 i like the theory that its just some poser who named himself mannimarco to get clout
I think it’s extremely boring and disappointing but 🤷🏼♂️
@@dillonthevillon3719 I mean I really enjoy that "Hogwarts" or "Magical College" themes from it, but that aside its really mediocre 🗿🤙
@@ThePhenix1 the archmage had to sacrifice himself to weaken him so i dont think its just some poser
“How many nice necromancers did you meet?” Did they forget about Seranna using necromancy in every fight
That's one. Likely the only one.
@@Tao-fp3yr due to thsm being turned into generic enemies
Thx for reanimating that chicken, very helpful Serana
@@GunGun-cf3ss I'll give her the benefit of the doubt. She was trying to save you 1000 septims. "See... He's not REALLY dead." *nervous vampire chuckles*
She used it to ressurect a chicken to fight a dragon it was funny and awesome!
I think actual Necromancy should be a separate skill tree from conjuring Daedric creatures. One is corruption of a dead body, while the other is a pact with a creature from another realm.
I still remember when I did the College quest line right as Savos was killed, then a dragon spawned and all the wizards started fighting it, SOMEONE rose Savos from the dead and had his corpse use fisticuffs on the dragon. But nope, the College doesn't practice necromancy!
It's Phinis Gestor; he literally admits to dabbling in necromancy if you talk to him.
@@TheScienceguy77 "Dabbling"
29:30 I'd also assume that since High Rock takes a lot of inspiration from France, some of the Dungeons may be deep maze-like catacombs lined with skulls and bones that would be perfect hideouts for Necromancers. I could even see a quest where a priest of Arkay sends you into catacombs beneath the chapel undercroft to get rid of a necromancer causing an infestation of undead in the town, you find a trap door that leads to the basement of one of the town's citizens, learning the necromancer's identity. You leave the house to tell the priest only to find that the town is on fire and the newly reanimated townsfolk are roaming the streets so you have to cut them down. You find the injured priest who tells you that he knows who the necromancer is and there's a nearby battlefield where the Necromancer (once a battlemage) and his brother fought for the lord of a nearby city, and that he blames the rest of the village for not fighting with them. You chase him down to the battlefield and fight him while he raises undead knights and soldiers to aid himself.
Howdy! It's so hard to raise a family, unless you bury them together.
🙄
i dislike this pun. take my like and leave this household immediately
Mom! Weird Uncle Jon is back.
The door is over there, sir.
In my opinion they should ad the school of necromancy as a stand alone not with
conjuration
Yeah you might have to find a black market college or something lol
@@user-bs2vb2sr5w yeah and could have the spells if practesd in public you could go to prison kinda like elder scrolls online
@@ياسرالاحمدي-ذ8ز I agree. Perks like Necromage, Dark Souls, and Necromancy belong in a separate skill tree. It's a missed opportunity.
That would be so cool
Iirc, aren't you forcing a Deadra spirit into the course and thus you are "reanimating" it?
If so, then it should be under Conjuration.
Speaking of Bosmer, IRL cannibalism isn’t “simply” a question of ethics. It’s a health issue. That’s why it’s so rare in all mammals. Our bodies contain a bunch if viruses and microbes that get us very sick if we eat our own.
I don't know man I wouldn't feel right eating another person that's fucked
@@user-bs2vb2sr5w The reason you woudn't feel right is becouse it's hard vired into our brains BECAUS of those health reasons
@@ltloxa1159 nah still there's something weird about stuff revolving around dead things also notice how people don't just cook it and eat it it's because there's Just something wrong about eating people it's pretty obvious it's just wrong because you could cook it but it's still cannibalism which is wrong and you are one weird fucker if you think it's anywhere near okay
See your argument is that because we specifically not eat human, but we eat other meat, that is proof that cannibalism is inheretly weird.
That would be true if wasn't for the fact that we naturally prefere any meat that is not from predators. Because go figure, any predator meat is less healthy than vegetarians.
Furthermore the biological advantage for not wanting to eat your own kind exists because a decease that just killed a human is more likely to be able to kill a human than a decease that just killed something else.
Also the unwillingness to eat someone of the same species decreases interspecies violence.
You would have to be incredibly naive to think natural repulsion isn't based on evolutionary advantages.
Draughr in Skyrim isn't always Dragon Cult related either. The draughr around Otar the Mad where there to stop intruders from letting Otar out of its sarcophagus. So draughr does not equal Dragon Cult. I mean Red Eagle sure wasn't involved with the Cult and neither was Fjori and Holgeir.
Otar was most certainly part of The Dragon Cult, as were most ancient Nords, he was probably locked up during the reign of dragons due to, well, his madness.
@@xeonespydonum4995 Read my comments again. I never said Otar wasn't. Being a Dragon Priest kind off proves he was don't you think? I simply meant the draughr around him. They weren't created to be servants but rather became draughr to keep him locked up.
I feel like Red Eagle is just them not bothering putting more ressources on Red Eagle. He definitely is Undead but he might not actually be a draugr in lore. Good points however
@@Gensolink he should’ve been like an “ancient briar heart” or something I agree
@Prey R Not at all neccerly all the time. Fjori, Holgeir, Red Eagle and Olaf One-Eye where all already dead which "Among the Draugr" tells would not be the case for the draugr serving priests. It seems more likely that there are multiple ways a draugr can be made and the cult's version was to become batteries but otherwise they could appear naturally. Either as the individual had a great purpose of standing guard forever like the draugr in Otar the Mads crypt or attacking intruders disturbing their rest.
My favorite type of magic in any Fantasy setting.
Bro I'm legit studying Elder Scrolls through your channel. Thanks for the good content.
There's a whole church type thing in the 🇺🇸 that worships the 8 divines
@@bonjovie_balogna9278 that’s kind of pathetic, i feel bad for them
@@luchaluchalucha There is no such thing as useless knowledge.
@@luchaluchalucha "All types of knowledge, ultimately mean self knowledge" - Bruce Lee.
If only Anakin had a high enough conjuration skill 🥲
There was a sith Lord called the Lord of pain because he actually came back to life multiple times just because he hated the world so imagine if he had more time ( he was convinced to finally let go because they literally could only kill him by convincing him that you've out lived your time it's time to rest and he finally gave in )
@@questionfor9502 Darth Sion.
@@smolaether thanks mate
listening to this while playing ESO, playing as a Necromancer, while fighting a lich lmao
Necromancy is a tool, a very powerful tool. It just so happens that a lot evil is done through this magic. I would like to see more necromancers that do good. Kindof like the Necros from the Diablo lore. How they study their whole lives to resist corruption.
I remember a bit in one game from forever ago where necromancy was an intregal part of a region. Basically, the living were given a decent life if they would agree to be brought back after death and be part of the work force. Something about the location was unbearable for the living and the dead had no real reason to complain.
@@LoneSilverW0lf Sounds like Dragon Age. Tervinter ? Or something like that.
@@RoxiieReadsLore no, it was an online game. Something on like Kongregate or something. It was forever ago when I played that.
@@LoneSilverW0lf shit, i'd take a mildly comfortable, if the cost was, my body would be brought back. That's not bad.
About the illusion thing, i actually played a character who’s parents were in the imperial army who used illusion, but only calm and courage spells, cause they were told horror stories of hardened soldiers screaming in fear or sobbing cause they were forced to kill their best friends, however one of the parents having been a healer taught them to use calm spells to soothe the injured and courage to help deal with unhealthy fears, having been trained by a healer and a soldier they were a spellblade with no offensive magics, honestly one of the best roleplay experiences i’ve had, really felt like setting those philosophical limits made them come to life
One thing that they didn't seem to know is that your corpse isn't just trash, old cities had massive bone graveyards underneath and we still don't know what for, some say they were used like batteries
Todays my birthday, and im glad yall came back to this topic today cause its my favorite thing. Great timing
Drew looks great in every episode
He does! I have a serious man crush on him.
Drew looks good 24/7. He is one sexy man.
Prisoner: Hey, we did not consent to being jailed, and under a blood-hungry watchdog who may use our bodies after we're dead!
Sybille Stentor: *Am I a joke to you?*
I do enjoy these podcasts,especially ones on topics that I myself am interested in.Necromancy is my favorite type of magic because it's just fascinating,because it's not just raising the dead,its defined as influencing life energies,and this means healing magic,soul stealing, as well as other things.Although raising the dead is just the best part.
The drug comparisons made me laugh because of the countries that have fully decriminalized drugs. Now I'm imagining state-mandated necromancy rehab.
that was all the debate about illegal things please "evil" people /psychopaths while legal things allow benevolent people to overwhelm the wrong doers...however what if a behaviour turns you evil anyway ? like do drugs make people socialy better ? should we legalize dopping for all ? centuries ago cocaine/opium were legal medicines , even meth started as medicine till states realized the social risks of those substances...
What if Necromancy was just a way to talk again to our dead loved ones ? what could be wrong about talking to my grand-grand-grand-grand- grand father ?
@@redcapetimetraveler7688 Well, that's where regulations come into play. Anything made illegal has no regulations and as such anything goes. Legalise drugs and regulate their intake, use, potency etc to levels that are considered 'safe'. If exposing yourself to same substances made legal harms you somehow, I'd say you would've hurt yourself sooner or later at some point regardless.
Edit: At the very least, you'd be more inclined to share with your doctor since it wouldn't be a taboo, with legal consequences anymore, making treatment, or preventative options a lot more likely this time round.
Edit 2: Teaching an art or craft with potential to harm won't necessarily lead to someone becoming 'evil', reasons for people doing what they do is always multifaceted and complex. I mean, if I learn MMA, or learn to use a pistol, I'm not going to be any more inclined to kill any more than if I'd not learnt those things. If I snapped, regardless of whether I was trained in the art of hurting people or not, the deed would still be done. The training would just make me a little better at it. If your argument is therefore that being better at killing is too great a hazard, then I'd argue that a society with mandatory training would be equally better at defending themselves.
I'd imagine legalising necromancy would have the same effect, it would be regulated in how it is taught at what ever accounts for schools in what ever province in Tamriel. You'd have more people knowing the ethics and uses of necromancy as opposed to just doing your own thing. A knowledgeable populace might be able to even curb rogue necromancy more effectively simply in lieu of having a better understanding of how it works. That's my opinion anyway.
@@JHS270694 This kind of arguement is what started the mages guild, I think
I like the torchick and dragonite in the background of Drew's screen
I would love for you to get a philosopher on here to talk about it. It’d be kinda fun to watch them have to deal with the levels of lore.
Idk man I'd have a hard time seeing my grandma as somebody's pack mule
Meh I’d just laugh, “hey look she’s finally doing something other than neglecting her kids”
What about your pack mule?
Even if your grandmothers dead body isn't her. Her soul has passed on to the afterlife or the dream sleeve?
Sweet! My Sunday is officially awesome now! ❤️💜💙
My favourite part of Sunday
I think the black arts on trial (or dark arts, can't remember which) was the only skill book that I thoroughly enjoyed reading in an elder scrolls game. Seeing the different arguments was pretty cool, then discovering the orc was a necromancer herself was also interesting. Traven made the right call.
Cant wait to you hit a million,
You deserve it 🤟🏽
Do alternate theory video on if Almalexia didn't kill Sotha Sil. 😊 Lets say you show up and as soon as you enter his room Almalexia attacks you and Sotha Sil. You both defeat her. Would he have successfully created a mechanical heart and new tools? If so would he have shared with Vivec? Would he have made himself into a completely mechanical being instead?
Well in the elder scrolls legends it is revealed he did finish a mechanical heart with new tools, it's what was keeping the clockwork city alive into the fourth era, also kind of implied that old Set actually uploaded himself into the mainframe of the city, why he was silent when Almalexia killed him was his body was just an empty shell, or that how the theory goes.
The ash’abah in hammerfell are basically Witchers from what it sounds like
These poddies make work go by so quick I’ve been blowing through them. I need more lolol. P
Some of the bodies literally thank you when you kill them and most moan in pain while resurrected I didn't exactly get along with him but I have a hard time believing in any scenario it would feel ethical if I saw my grampa's body working in a field constantly moaning in pain and begging for death.
Nah, it's fiiiiine~
Ok, but what if that body you just resurrected and are using as a meat-shield can still feel pain, fear, anguish? Would you enjoy being used thusly?
It emplys that in skyrim, they are constantly groaning in pain when you resurrect them and will sometimes whisper "Thank... You..." When they are killed
the skeletons never complain
@@tarnyowl6068 kinda hard without organs
@@Ratty_Mask they have xylophones
@@tarnyowl6068 fair enough
I'm surprised you guys didn't mention the Ideal Masters or the Soul Cairn.
10:45 Skyrim is so frustrating in terms of giving us the straight answer; the court wizard of Windhelm says that "necromancy has been outlawed for hundreds of years" while Phinius Gestur (butchered his name), the conjuration teacher at the College of Winterhold, says that "that old law died out with the Mages' Guild." You're killing my immersion, Smalls.
Love these! In one of your Podcasts, you guys should explore what exactly is an Elder Scroll; I think it would be super interesting to hear your guys’ take on what they are, and what they do!
I like the part where Scott compares prison labour to necromancy
Boys I know these podcasts don’t get as many views as your smaller edited videos but in my opinion these podcasts are the best elder scrolls content on RUclips by far.
In a lot of fantasy magic systems I often want there to be ethical necromancy because of the shear practical usage.
Something we don't see in elder scrolls much is the raising of animals. Imagine skeletal horses that don't need rest or fodder. Like, for all the uses mounts and pack animals and beasts of burden had, imagine the life changing benefits of having common access to a prime plow-pulling bull to till your farmland that you don't need to feed.
For sentient being necromancy, imagine this scenario: You're a farmer who's family has worked the land for generations. Because you're poor farmers your little village has maybe ten guys with maybe one full kit between them, maybe a couple of iron swords or spears, otherwise all your metal goes into pitchforks and horseshoes. 30 armed raiders show up, riding in, coming to pillage the village. You would be doomed, but you run to the graveyard where generations of your family is buried, and activate a glyph. Dozens upon dozens of ghosts, ghosts of people who were born and lived and died in that village over centuries, spring from the ground and save their living descendants. When you die, your family and neighbors know that you wanted to be added to their number, tied to that glyph and set to rest in peaceful slumber until called in a time of need to serve and save the living.
“For the honor of Cyrodil”
*dies
*gets resurrected
“For the honor of Cyrodil!”
Ad infinitum
It's been months since I tuned in. Drew still has the best voice.
It's always fun when Michael has something to say during the podcast. He's so animated
They never mention that one guy in the tomb boning a ghost.
i was about to re-play skyrim with necromancer build, right on time you guys breaking down necromancy lorewise. thanks for video
Very convenient podcast to listen too while I work out my new necromancer build on ESO.
20:20 It is indeed the ultimate flex, I used to capture the souls of any named characters I killed. Then I'd enchant item with their soul and name it after them.
I capture Ancano's soul every time
I’m currently playing a argonian necromancer and it’s legit the best play through I’ve done.
Excellent podcast episode. Fantastic subject matter.
As a huge fan of necromancy in many universes a video like this is perfect thank you!
Yeah another episode!! I really love this podcast!! :)
The cult of the black worm would fit nice as a counterpart to Hammerfell's mage guild, would help popularise evil playtgroughs, maybe even make necromancy a viable school of magic
I wish we could use more of blood magic in the Elder Squirrels
Honestly, it all boils down to whether or not you are torturing a soul or just animating dead meat; both _can_ be used for good, but only torturing a soul starts at a karmic net negative. If it's just puppeting a corpse with no effect on the soul, then it is morally neutral but culturally debatable. Even if it is harming the soul, that still makes it less "evil" than Enchanting, and no one seems to have a problem with that.
For my enchanting, the only time I soul-trap is when I am killing necromancers, or someone entirely evil. There are more than enough soul gems to be found in chests, etc. Although I had never thought much about it until I went to the soul cairn.
I pretty strongly agree with Scott's take here, morality in the Elder Scrolls especially for something as broad in application as necromancy is simply not black and white. It is typically evil, though there can be good characters (or anti-hero depending on how you class her) like Serana who use it a lot and aren't simply "evil"
In my mind there are two main forms of reanimation: binding the soul to the body, and reanimated the body using some other magicka forces. The dead thrall spell would be an example of actually binding the soul back to the body, since it maintains the tissue and lasts semi-permanently; simple reanimation spells just use an extension the summoner's magicka or soul to control the body.
You all talk about similar ideas, but that's my thought
Guys are so close to a million. Can't wait to see if you do something special for it.
Your opening always get me into a elder scrolls mood
So by definition, Todd making everyone play Elder Scrolls Blades to extract nuggets of lore makes him a Lich
How on earth do y’all not have 1 million subscribers at this point, I’ve been a fan of y’all’s for such a long time now
Listening to you Guys makes me feel thatthe weirdness with all useable magic in elder scrolls stems from the time when elder scrolls basically used dungeons and dragons magic and later trying to have something of their own and simplifying the system in later games
Rare video found of “The Black Arts on Trial,” 2021 colorized
I hope the next podcast is on Aka or the Time God, specifically on how they all may be the same and not at the same time and their own connections to Lorkhan or the representative of Space, as both together represent Space-Time.
What about soul gems? That is a slippery slope.
I enjoyed the way you guys balanced necromancy and ethics...
Fudgemuppet could in fact achieve a triumpherance of perfection. Keep Camel on fulltime and rid themselves of that "not-so-fresh-feeling"...that is to say...their red problem down-under.
I just had a coworker ask me what I was listening to and after I told him, he asked what's the point in arguing over the ethics of something that doesn't exist. I think this video is proof enough that debating the ethics of bending reality, the elements, life, etc is far more entertaining than most anything in the real world. It's the same reason why I can remember the history and politics of Tamriel, but I can barely remember either of those thing when in reference to reality. I mean, why would I talk about how a bunch of old dudes signed a piece of paper when I can talk about Humans and Elves, and Argonians and other races fighting against flying, fire breathing lizards that can also cast spells? I mean, which one sounds more interesting?
Serana and her mother are necromancers and they seem to be nice relatively speaking. Also what if you become a litch by killing bandits in various pain full ways keep in mind bandits kill, loot and rape without remorse so you can become a litch with a large number of captured bandits.
I think now that you guys have covered both Meridia and Necromancy as a whole, maybe we could get a podcast on Stendarr? I may be a bit biased, but I find Stendarr and his Vigilants/The Dawnguard are some of the most interesting lore regarding any of The Divines.
The thing with TES is that the nature of life in their is that it is eternal. The Et'Ada existed to harvest souls (life force) and gather it to the various planes of existence seemingly to amass armies for the purposes of a Ragnarok-style war that occurs at the end of each Kalpa. This is why many people's have an afterlife realm of their own but are only severed from aNirn upon their death and by being claimed by an Et'Ada. This feeds into the fact that mortals are not mortal at all and the inhabitants of Nirn are no different to Daedra.
Therefore, Necromancy in TES is not bringing anyone back from the dead. Instead, it returns them to their body or prevents the transition of the lifeforce to another realm by trapping it in Nirn as seen with what people call ghosts. This would mean that spirits in TES are not of the dead, but of the living. A continuation of the life they already had.
So is it evil? The very word requires a concept of right and wrong which can only be determined by someone in authority. Given that Nirn has no highest deity to set down the rules for morality there is no good or evil acts. So the actual question should be, is Necromancy cruel? Given that you can pull someone from a pleasant talk like Sovngarde against their will and force them back into Nirn it can be seen as cruel. But likewise, you may pull someone out of realms which they'd be glad to be free of.
I'm Necro-feeling this episode of elder scrolls lore
People get pretty mad about what that Arondil does with ghosts 😂😂😂😂 that's necromancy too
I think what they were saying about consent applies to that. Arondil was... using his victims' ghosts, ripping them from their mortal shells and forcing them to serve him. Ghosts are, effectively, physical manifestations of the person's soul. He's effectively raping their soul twice over; once by ripping it from their body and binding them to his will, and again by forcing them to sleep with him.
Arondil's necromancy was evil because be was using it with evil intentions.
I started a Molag Bal devotee/vampire playthrough the other night; focusing mostly on conjuration, destruction and 1h. I mainly use the conjuration for soul trap purposes, I don't like using zombies as cannon fodder to potentially steal my melee XP and get in the way of my frost spells
EDIT: I make an exception for Nazeem, whom I will sometimes amuse myself with by raising him as a dread thrall and having him follow me around. Asshole only goes to the Cloud District when I do now.
I've always wanted there to be a rle indepth and interesting gameplay mode to make a necromancer build work. Wish the thralls didn't dissolve afterwards so you could have a familiar throughout the game if you kept Rezing them
Just use the aetherium crown with the ritual stone in skyrim, put it on to res any level creature they don't dissolve after death and you should be able to unequip then reequip the crown to use it more than once a day
@@danielshore1457 wow Thank you for the tip!
i remember colin vineben talked to a ghost, i think her name was delia or something, was that a ghost he summoned from her body or was it just there? just trying to remember, he gives a good description of someone reaching out for magika.
I would like to see how FudgeMuppet does a character build based around Link from The Legend of Zelda. Maximizing the strength of the Master Sword is a must.
I remember reading two comments, on Reddit or RUclips, I forgot where. They describe necromancy in a great way.
“Remember guys, necromancy is just a really determined healer”
And
“Necromancy is just a really late healer.”
I always like to think that white souls, when used to fuel enchanted equipment, are not actually housed inside the equipment. The soul's latent magicka is used as fuel while the souls themselves are sent off to Aetherius. Black soul gems can carry the souls of mortals, but the corruption of the black gem corrupts the soul inside, as such they are sent off to the Soul Cairn since the soul would become too corrupted to enter Aetherius.
I think the general idea is that "white souls" aren't conscious once they leave the body.
They are just magicka, which it appears is the energy of creation.
I love this philosophical debate through the device called the elder Scrolls.
15:06
"Whip em out!" XD
For my only Skyrim playthrough, in my head cannon my Altmer character was saved as a child as his parents protected him from an attack and when his dad was killed he begged his wife to resurrect him with her conjugation magic. She did and he continued to fight. They both fought to the death so my character could flee. Seems like an ethical use🤷♂️
14:30 I don't think sentience is relevant to soul gems but that is what I thought. Because giants only require a greater soul gem but the mammoths they herd have a grand soul.
necromancy is just healing without giving up
Just the fact that a captured soul will eventually will be claimed by the Ideal Master and be stuck in the Soul Cairn for eternity, makes it a dark evil art. These souls won't move on to their chosen plane of Aetherius, being in perpetual torment. So, there's no question that it's evil. The cultural identity augment, is just an excuse to justify those actions.
Well but why was there no almalexia/vivec? Like everybody put them into s soul gem ^^
I'd argue that there are many that don't deserve to ascend and should be stuck in the Soul Cairn for their actions. Bandits, serial killers, Thalmor, etc.
@@TheScienceguy77 actually as Nord bandits are concerned they do go to Sovngarde if they die valiantly in battle.
@@ulyssesthepagan7873 Normally, sure. They won't if they're soul trapped before dying. There are plenty of Nords in the Soul Cairn and some talk about how one minute they were fighting a necromancer and the next thing they knew they ended up in the Soul Cairn.
@@TheScienceguy77 I was referring to your comment that some deserve to be soul trapped. According to Shor it doesn't matter if they died fighting, they're welcome to his domain. For any Nord that follows the belief of Sovngarde that would be complete torment for an eternity. Take Kodlak Whitemane he was distraught that his soul was claimed by Hircine. No one deserves such endless suffering. So necromancy used on good or evil individuals is immoral.
You know what would be cool is friendly necromancer who makes friends with spirits that can't move on on their own. I'm not sure if there's a practical way to be able to do that seeing as befriending a spirit usually involves helping them move on but still seems like an interesting idea to play around with.
Yeah like someone who wanted to be an adventurer but got stuck as a farmer. Now ur bringing this spirit into battle and your adventure. Maybe
Love this podcast
I agree with Michael that it would be inherently evil think of what the grey beards say about the dragon rend shout, what would they say about the soul rend shout? You would be taking that magic and energy into your own soul
I'm curious what your guys take on necromancy in the Diablo universe.
In Skyrim when you use a necromancy spell on a person, said person is never fully returned to their former selves. In my earliest playthrough; to empower The Ebony Blade I would kill Lydia, raise her with the Dead Thrall spell and kill her again. When raised she doesn't speak only moan and you can't interact with her (or anybody you raise). When you kill her she says "thank you" in a ghastly voice. That's the little bit of her soul that was ripped from the aether to restore her body to "life". The resurrection spell mod however; shows a clear difference. When I kill Lydia and raise her with the resurrection spell, her soul is fully restored. She doesn't glow with that ghostly blue, is fully interactive and speaking normally. Necromancy in my opinion is forced resurrection. That's why it's effects seem limited, especially in Skyrim where the raised subject dies and turns to ash after a set time. Save for The Dead Thrall spell wherein the body remain intact when the subject is killed.
Is there a lore episode about Arkay? What is his role, exactly?
Practical his priest/priestesses did things like bury the dead and perform burial rights he's the God of the cycle of life and death in TES I think
@@user-bs2vb2sr5w I did find Drew's video about him
@52. Then i guess being and creating the undead is basically a crime against Arkay. Thats cool.
@@zombiedemon1762 yes sort although that's more stendarr in TES Arkay just hates it when people don't die like vampires lore is just Molag Bal trying to spite Arkay
Meridia: Yes
Drew waiting patiently for the opportunity to drop the mic 🎙
Short answer: yes
Long Answer: between the slode (the slug people) the wolf queen, the unseen masters, the daedra, it isn't something that should practiced it always trambles upon the design of Arkay. To quote a song 🎵" Who Wants to Live, Forever?"
In the elder scrolls yet to come out, would you like to see the spell creation to come back from oblivion.
I wonder if the dead bodies that didnt decompose properly became the candles we see in the caves? possibly corpse wax?
Regarding dunmer slaves:
Dunmer can absolutely be slaves in Telvanni territory. There's a quest in *Morrowind* where you can purchase a dunmer slave to be an ashkhan's wife.