Idealism: Interpreting Revelation
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
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This particular view is new to me, not that I'm going to convert to it, or change my way of thinking, but to understand the view
Very helpful. I belong to a URCNA congregation and my pastor preached exegeted Revelation in an idealist, redemptive-historical manner as you are doing. It was the first time I understood how Rev fits into the Bible as a whole. It helped me clear my mind of the confusion caused by a Dispensational upbringing and turned it into a comforting book rather than something I had avoided. Thank you!
I too belong to a URCNA congregation! It has been a wonderful blessing of a denomination.
@@jcpg9592 I agree. We are so blessed.
I was saved on 11/2/2022 and since then I have taken a futurist position. Now, through study, I take a redemptive historical and idealist position like G.K. Beale and Poythress and others. Great video.
Pastor Matthew, you have been vital in helping me shape my eschatology. You teach with clarity, simplicity, depth, and faithfulness to Gods Holy Word. Thank you for your ministry! 🤙🏽
What a beautiful explanation Rev. Everhard. You kept it so simple. Great Job. I fall right in the middle between partial preterist and idealist and the reason being that while I think the vast majority (up to 80/90%) of the events described in Revelation have already been fulfilled in AD70, I do not exclude the possibility of much of it having more than one fulfilment. I think there is a case to be made in the Bible for certain prophecies to have more than one fulfilment. An example would be the Beast whose name is equal to the number 666 or 616 (some of the oldest manuscripts). I think this is clearly referencing Caesar Nero; but could possibly be a type of a Beast to come too.
How grateful I am, Pastor Matt, for your labors in and for the LORD. The LORD in His gracious love for us invites us to milk Scripture for truth, correction, and as a guide to light our way in this fallen world.
Your take on Revelation is Biblical and encouraging. My favorite book
of the Bible. I'm going to listen to your series, already knowing what a great source of edification it will be.
Revelation is the description of God's image, his supremacy, and demonstrates how that God The Father has committed all judgement on a fallen world, and the grace of God to show mercy on those that have commited themselves by faith toward Jesus Christ.
The Word of God in Revelation is seen in all The Old Testament, but at the same time is revealing future events which are now happening, and from the perspective of God's view from Heaven.
Im part pret and amil. This is a new concept to me.
Thank you much pastor Matt, I currently hold a partial preterist view, but I'm always looking into other systems of interpretation. You are so helpful to me in my growth as a believer and a pastor. You have a gift for clarity and distinction that I am overwhelmingly blessed by. Grace and peace to you from our Father and our Lord
In his commentary on Revelation, Beale, on page 2 of the introduction says that Revelation is pretty much a commentary on Eph. 6: 10-18, Paul's teaching of Spiritual Warfare and the whole Armour of God. Seen in this light, Revelation became an indispensable resource for worship (given Revelation's disclosing of God's beauty and glory), a guide for Spiritual Warfare(seeing the fierce oppressive nature of the world, flesh, and the devil), and a source of edification(seeing the redemption of Christ as the triumph over all the above). Oh, well, that's my 2 cents. Hope everyone's walking with Jesus, including above all, my slippery, slimy self.
I love y'all.
You are awesome brother!👍
I'm a catholic partial preterist but I think that first gen of Christians is an archetype of each generation, there's always a beast there's always martyrs there's always disasters always an evil empire
Great job brother! Thank you!
I take a mixed view of Revelation. Chapters 11-13, 20-22 fit the Idealist view, but I take the rest as partial-preterist.
Where can I buy that awesome T-shirt!?
Excellent overview. Though I've never heard of the grid labelled, "Idealism," it sounds reasonable to me the way you explained it. Love the tail wagging the dog analogy. I'm afraid that is bang on when it comes to some people's use of Revelation 20 --- they interpret it one way and then force the rest of the New Testament to fit that interpretation. In reality, it should be the other way around. The rest of the NT, all the clear teaching found therein, should shape how we understand Revelation 20.
Excellent video. I'm with you on having the idealist view. Use the parts of the Bible that are easier to understand to interpret the harder to understand.
Symbolic images throughout the book of Revelation.
Redemptive history is given in the Book of Revelation.
Your video should be heard by more than just the choir.
Hey Matthew. I’m curious what you think about this line of thinking.
I cut my teeth in Reformed Theology largely with the books and teachings of R.C. Sproul, so naturally I took up the Partial Preterist view that really begins in Matthew 24 (though I’ve always been Amil over Postmil like R.C). This has been my view for years, but in the last year or two, I have started to see Idealism as a more complete understanding of Partial Preterism. In other words, John’s vision is not unrelated to the events of 70 AD, but it is not only related to 70 AD. Perhaps the Partial Preterist view functions as a pattern for the rest of the church age. Therefore, for example, rather than Nero simply being the beast, Nero is a pattern for the beast. With this understanding, the text itself (not just an application) is very much for the church in every part of these last days.
What do you think about this idea that Idealism is a more complete understanding of Partial Preterism ?
You definitely are not alone in that understanding. There are lots of people who have held that position of a past and future fulfillment.
I'm not sure I would call myself a partial preterist but I do believe that in Matthew 24 Jesus uses similar structure in His prophecy (of course being The Prophet, Priest, and King) that the old testament prophets used. How they would kinda give this picture that would include near events as well as far future events but they would be fit into the same picture. I think partial preterism goes too far in Matthew 24 when they try to say that it's only about 70 AD, and dispensationalists go too far when they say that Mathew24 is entirely a future event in the distant future. I think Jesus is talking about both near events in the destruction of the temple which it clearly does talk about, but then also is talking about the end of the age which I believe is clear when He talks about His coming on the clouds and the gathering of the elect. The partial preterists often seem to want to smoosh that into the 70AD judgement but I think the evidence weighs against that with the mention of the gathering together the elect which fits with all Jesus's earlier parables about the harvest at the end of the age and Paul's teaching in 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians 15.
A interesting point that preterists make is when Jesus says this generation will not pass away until these things have taken place. So they use that as a convincing argument that it had to be a soon event. But Sam Waldron pointed out a really good argument for that which I now hold to and was convinced by my own search of the scriptures on this. The phrase "this generation" which Jesus used, if you do a word study and look up every time Jesus used that phrase in the gospels, it always refers to the unbelieving generation. So I now am convinced that "this generation" is talking about this present age of unbelievers.
Anyways I enjoyed reading your insight and just wanted to share some of the things I've been thinking about over the last few years on this and trying to piece together my own position and convictions on this issue. I go to a dispensational premillennial church that is very very faithful. My pastor went to Master's Seminary. But I disagree with their eschatology and it's been a great blessing for me to remember John MacArthur and RC Sproul's friendship and brotherhood and how close they were in Christ even though they had some big disagreements on these issues.
There's a really good eschatology seminary class online by Dr Sam Waldron. It's 17 videos long and it covers the whole topic of eschatology from a reformed modified idealist perspective. But he engages with the other views.
If you search for eschatology class Sam Waldron there will be a link to Monergism dot com. I can't put the link otherwise RUclips will block it.
God bless you brother.
@@chrisjohnson9542 I will definitely check that out. That’s a fascinating argument about “this generation.” I certainly want to get into the Greek and see what I can find around that line of thought. Also, I love to remember the friendship of MacArthur and Sproul. Brothers in Christ can disagree on open hand issues yet be united in Christ. I believe these kind of discussions work to push both parties to know God and His Word better (if done respectfully). I appreciate you brother!!
@@someguywithastrat amen. Absolutely and God bless you too! Again I enjoyed reading your comment. It stimulated me to think about that topic and think about my own position. I definitely need to look into these things more. Matt is a really good preacher and I've been following his sermons on Revelation although I'm way way behind. But I know he is using GK Beales Revelation commentary in his studies and I also have that commentary (the shorter one) and it's really useful and helpful.
It will soon , and quickly , says it all. Not 2000 years later. Gary DeMar, Kenneth Gentry.
Good content, and much appreciated. Thank you.
One correction - cherubim and seraphim are not angels. They are each their own subset of heavenly beings, of which angels are also a subset (and not the master set). In other words, and to further the point, angels serve as messengers and emissaries to earth and function in other outer directed capacities. Cherubim and seraphim do not serve in those roles, but are centered more on the holy throne of God.
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.
Paster Matthew, thank you for this. I grew up in the church, and I never understood how a letter written to ancient churches that no longer exist were solely about today... or maybe even farther into the future. I purchased the commentary on Revelation and am currently going through one chapter at a time ( I might have to slow down due to time/ comprehension).
I do have a question. Do you have any recommendations on other commentaries on the prophets that line up with this view?
Thanks for all you do!
So here's where I'm at, I don't know too much about the idealistic view which is what I was searching for and it just brought me to your description of ideology of the book of revelation. I was raised in the futurist dispensational view, which I do not hold anymore, after learning this is a Jesuit doctrine brought in to our country, in the late 1800s 1900s, the rapture that we have to support Israel which isn't even the Israel of the scriptures mentioned, it's more of a scientist political Rothschild Israel, as many believe this is going to be the end times beast of revelation, and that very well may be so, I have held the view that the Roman Catholic Church is the beast of Revelation the little hornet arose from the 10 nations of the Western Roman empire that said itself up and claims itself as God on earth, I even have a bunch of their writings in a book that they hold the position as God on Earth, so also I'm coming against preterism because this doctor teaches that there is no resurrection that Jesus is not coming back that nobody has any hope in the resurrection. When you die that's it you're going to be in the heavens with the spirit that you're not going to have a flesh of any kind glorified and corruptible whatever, and there's so many people on social media teaching the preterist doctrine, and this also is a Jesuit doctrine. However I have taken on The view that the Book of Revelation is a progression of the church age starting where's John is given the Revelation and tells us that these things shall shortly come to pass and the time is at hand. I believe that Domitian is the emperor that exiled John to Patmos and upon his death John was released where he lived out the rest of his life in Ephesus. But in his letter these things shall shortly come to pass, shortly after treyton who led the greatest Roman conquests, makes the most sense the end fighting The civil wars and the wars of other nations and things like that which brought economic hardship
The plague that killed over 70 million Romans, and the people in those provinces. Judgment on Rome by the father for the persecution of the saints, but also I think this at least out of the three futurism preterism, holds more weight. And makes more sense. All I'm trying to do is understand the idealistic view, and the first thing I want to know is you do believe that Jesus is returning at the end of the sixth day, 120th jubilee, that there's a Great harvest at the second coming and a destruction of the wicked, baptism by fire over the whole Earth, and that we will reign on Earth, many believe for a thousand years. And then the resurrection of the Damned. Which I don't know if I hold that view there's a lot of things that I have questions on the thousand year of rain, because you have the first roots and then you have the barley harvest which I believe that is at the second coming, and then you have the harvest of the tears and the wheat which many believe comes at the end of that thousand years. I just see some holes into that view. But I want to do a presentation on one of my social media accounts addressing all four views
is that almond butter from sam's?
It has been a year and we still don't have an answer to this important question.
We all come to the text with presuppositions, but if our presuppositions do not submit to the higher authorities (i.e. Scripture, Christ Himself) then our presuppositions must be corrected. Trying to understand John's Apocalypse without understanding its genre makes expositing its text futile. I heard from a missionary in Latin America how the indigenous people err on the side of reading any piece of literature as a narrative, in which case they come to the NT Epistles and try to turn them into a narrative, which they are clearly not. The same thing seems to happen with us when we try to read John's Apocalypse as anything other than apocalyptic literature. The parameters for Apocalyptic genre are provided in Daniel primarily, in which case once you understand the parameters of the genre and then you slow down and examine the parameters of John's Apocalypse (as he provides in the opening), the foundation for interpreting the book is laid, regardless of prior theological position.
"The _apocalypse_ of Jesus Christ" ---> a revealing, uncovering
"which God gave him _to show_ " ----> emphasis is upon the visual/experiential (showing) more than upon the verbal, contra oracles
"to his bondslaves what must _take place_ " -----> this is about _events_ more so than objects
"soon/quickly" ----> modifying _what must take place_
"He signified it" ----> the revelation occurs through signifying/indicating
"through sending his angel" ------> indication comes through an angel, i.e. the experience is given with a guide
"to his slave John" ------> recipient of revelation, i.e. the experiencer/visionary
"who bore witness" ------> recipient is already a witness of other things
"to the word of God" ------> the word of God is the _object_ of witness, not the central mode of revelation (central mode is vision/experience in apocalyptic; central mode is verbal in oracles; both genres employ verbal and experiential, but each employs one mode more than the other)
"and to the witness of Jesus Christ" ------> recipient of revelation also witnessed Jesus's Person
Question: interesting I dont think ive heard this take on Revelation before. what is your view on the millennium? Amil, post mil, pre mil?
PRETERISTS and IDEALISTS take away from the words of the book of prophecy.
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
For decades it bothered me that the Book of Revelation could only be applicable and relevant to some distant future generation of Christians. I knew there had to be a way that this book was for all Christians of all ages. Very long story short, I was so happy when someone finally gave me a word for what I had become: Idealist. I really liked it because it is the "ideal" way to understand Revelation.
Revelation was a letter to the 7 churches in Asia Minor. We have very little history on these 7 churches. No in depth historical study on each one. Nor, what were the doctrines truly that corrupted some of the churches. Thyatira got an F. Pergamon got a serious low grad like a D-. Just research the report card on the 7 churches and that says alot. Today, all 7 churches are in absolute ruins. We know Constantinople fell to Islam.and it was changed to Instanbul. Today, when Christians visit the ruins and look around, they are in shock almost everything around them is Islamic. Now, this is very important information. So, the Byzantine Empire fell to the Ottoman Empire. Then, the Ottoman Empire fell to Britain's Kingdom/ Khazar Empire is in there. You know the State of Israel is a British Colony. Rothschilds bought the Levant Area. Right now, we got a mystery Occult religion running the Earth and it is in everything. Of course, our churches remain silent on all of it. Before the full fall of rhe Byzantine Empire, the Holy Roman Empire Inquisition lasted exactly 1,260 years. In under one hour, Napoleon's army moved in and arrested the Pope. Years later, under Reagan, the United States was back in business with the Vatican and Israel both. We all know about the DC swamp. Now what? I keep thinking we have been stuck in Revelation 17 for years. Literally stuck. For our Catholic Bible believers, I'm addressing the top level corruption. Just to clarify. Before the Protestants say they are the best, well, they go to the Vatican and Israel to make deals. Again, the top levels. This corruption begins back in Genesis 3 onward. Jesus Christ came and died/ resurrected and ascended to Heaven in the Throne and started conquering. He will put all enemies under His feet. We are here. No one can call how this fully plays out but its coming to a head. How much itf this did the Apostle John see? America is dead in the center of it all too with DC Pentagon Corruption in with foreign powers. Now what? Many Christians are trying to make sense of this. There is definitely more to come but we got the Book of Ecclesiastes that clearly says the physical Earth does not get destroyed. I also think Revelation 20 was edited with corrupt translation work. This leaves us pretty much blind for what's coming. We see the New Age Enlightenment Occult taking over. Are we in Satan's Little Season???? Are we beyond the Book of Revelation? The Beast is already divided into 3 parts: DC, Bank of London, and the Pentagon. Israel has heavy influence on everything too with AUPAC and more. Dont forget Switzerland who is not neutral. The CIA Headquarters is under Lake Geneva and rhey got CERN. The UN headquarters is in New York City, New York. Nothing to see here. Revelation 22 says leave the Book open and rhe 7 plagues can happen again. Maybe we are under the Land Beast? The Mystery Babylon/ Harlot Beast? The Clay Iron Mingled Beast? Something is reall wrong here. Most Christians know it. We got a group we cant talk about that had infiltrated every church. Pastor Chuck Baldwin of Liberty Fellowship calls it out.
I dont kniw what to call this. I believe we are under rhe New Covenant and we are past the Biok of Revelation. However, just like God has intervened before, He can again. But, His Justice System is set up for eternity. Matbe Sheol or place of rhe dead is empty and the believets who went before us have their glorified bodies and are in the New Jerusalem of the New Heaven and is under the New Earth. This Physical Realm continues to run parallel to the spiritual realm. That makes rhe Ideal View of Revelation extremely important if you connect it eith Ephesians 6. Evil is rogue and out of control right now and God is going to pour Wrath down on it however it plays out. The Wicked always get destroyed. It is their End Times. My two cents on how to go beyond Pretorist View. The Resurrection is the physical resurrection of emptying sheol with real glorified bodies. What this means wirh reinf of Jesus Christ with the saints is that He reigns with all saints in Old Earth and New Earth together forever and evwr, generation to generation. We get our glorified real physical bodies after our physical bodies die. Only whats done in the physical realm for eternity will last. If things get really bad here, I could see God taking drastic action on the Physical Old Earth. Those of us are akive and remain can be put in Divine Protection. But, please leave Left Behind Series Behind. Thats fiction. Only God knows the future. He also put in our Bibles Ecclesiastes which definitely hints at continuous cycles of life forever. The enemies will be dealt with and the Church is Forever. But, God needs to really clean out our churches. Thats for sure. So, my Eschatology View is beyond Revelation and it is "Jesus Christ is the Same Yesterday, Today, and Forever.". The Gospel is eternal. It will go forth healing every nation. This is the Totality of Scripture. The Cross is empty and eternal forever with rhe Word if God that is the two edged Sword out of the mouth of Jesus Christ. We need to start measuring our churches to the Word of God again. I forgot what chapter that is in Revelation about measuring the temple. Temple also means our bodies. Are we living for Jesus Christ in this physical messed up realm? Eternal Realm is real. Thete is a Lake of fire, and other descriptions in the Prison System of God. Sin cannot enter the New Jerusalem on the New Earth under the New Heaven and we got no clue where it is at but corrupt NASA is looking for it!! Ask also why these rich elites wNt to kerp researching Antarctica and Siberia and North? Why all the secrecy and treaties???
We got no clue how much the Apostle John really saw with what I just mentioned. We cannot ask our pastors about any of it. The Reign of Jesus Christ with 1,000 years may already be past. We got so much history they never told us like Tartaria, mud floods, the glorious architecture, free energy and more. Yes, I understand the Gnostic aspect of this but its not all Gnostic. How do you explain all the fires in the 1800's??? What time line are we in really? What are rhe crooks hiding? We got international tunnels and military DUMBS and huge huge cities underground. Research Cheyenne Mountain for example. Now, our military is trained and been doing subterranean warfare. Like just how much if this did Apostle John see???? It sounds like Gog/ Magog to me but worse! Now, what Eschatology View can explain this??? Exactly. Ideal View maybe is the best or we are in a time beyond the Book of Revelation. Thoughts???? We are eAy oast Birth pains. When you research crimes against humanity, we are way psst birth pains and spirit of antichrist. Way past. Its all real. We all better pray!!! I also think we are missing real writing from Christians after AD 70-AD100. This explains why no one can truly make full sense of Eschatology. Things were edited and hidden by certain people after AD70 to get revenge. V for Vendetta. By 100AD, we hear from some early Church Fathers about things. Again, their ideas maybe flawed or tainted. It gets sorse from there. So, we have 30 years of missing accounts from Christians at this time from 70AD-100AD. I think its very important. I got a ton of questions and our pastors need to be held accountable to start telling as much truth as possible. What is going on? We are talking 30 years of missing critical information. The Book of Revelation has points applicable for this time, but its really about the Fall of Jerusalem and the temple with the Roman Empire falling. I do not believe any dates they gave us regarding when Roman Empire fell. It fell much earlier. So, what's the real story after AD70?
A Millennium Puzzle to solve… Will Christ be conducting funeral services for mortals killed in accidents 500 years after His Second Coming?
The “first resurrection” in Rev. chapter 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the Book of Revelation, because the two witnesses are resurrected from the dead in chapter 11. There are two different types of resurrection in John chapter 5. There is a spiritual resurrection from the dead in John 5:24, and a bodily resurrection from the dead in John 5:28-29.
Does your view of the Millennium agree with what Paul said in 2 Thess. 1:7-10, when Paul said Christ returns in "flaming fire" taking vengeance on those who do not obey the Gospel? The fire comes at the end of Rev. chapter 20.
Does your view agree with what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:10-13, when Peter said this earth is going to burn and "dissolve" when He comes as a thief on the day of the Lord? The fire comes at the end of Rev. chapter 20.
Does your view agree with what Paul said in 2 Tim. 4:1, when Paul said both the living and the dead will be judged at His appearing? The time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some and destruction for others is found in Rev. 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible. (This verse also proves the Book of Rev. is not in chronological order.) The judgment of the dead is also found at the end of Rev. chapter 20.
Does your view agree with what Jesus said in Matt. 25:31-46, where He described the judgment of the sheep and goats, which leaves no mortals alive on the planet at the end of the passage? There are also no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Rev. chapter 19.
Does your view agree with Peter in 2 Pet. 2:4, and Jude in Jude 1:6, when they both said wicked angels are already in chains of darkness?
Does your view agree with what John recorded in Rev. 9:1-2, when an angel comes down from heaven with a key to unlock the pit, which means the pit was locked before that time? Are there wicked angels already in the pit in Rev. 9:11? John recorded angels already "bound" in Rev. 9:14. The beast "ascends" out of the pit in Rev. chapter 11, which means the beast was in the pit before that time.
Take all of the above and compare it to the symbolic language found in Rev. chapter 20, and the fact the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order, and you will have the truth.
==============================================================================================================
Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation: (book not in chronological order )
Christ returns one time in the future. However, there are several different visions of His return shown from different perspectives in the Book of Revelation.
Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.
He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.
The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.
The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.
He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?
He comes on a horse in chapter 19.
Chapter 20?
Does He come with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1?
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Why does an angel come down from heaven with a key to unlock the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1-2, if the pit was not already locked before that time? Are there wicked angels in the pit in Rev. 9:11? If the beast "ascends" from the pit in Rev. chapter 11, where was the beast before that time?
Does your view agree with Peter in 2 Pet. 2:4, and Jude in Jude 1:6, when they both said wicked angels are already in chains of darkness?
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels were previously bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.
The principle of "Recapitulation" means there are multiple visions of His return.
Jude 1:6 angels in chains of darkness = DNA chains.
Welcome to your prison fallen angel.
Only one Gospel:
The Gospel of Reconciliation.
Jesus Christ came into THEIR kingdom
to reconcile fallen angels unto Himself.
We are the fallen angels (ELOHIM) kept in DNA chains of darkness.
If you do not confess being a fallen angel in Lucifer's kingdom, then you are an unbeliever.
Unbeliever = those that claim to be made in the image of ELOHIM(gods).
REPENT FALLEN ANGELS.