An adapter should not take that long to set up. All kinds of adapters have been set up for all kinds of mechanical and electrical things in the past. If they claim they cannot, that explains why Boeing and ULA and the like cannot seem to be able to build new systems using old technology within schedule and budget.
Yeah back then things were still simple. Now there are probably many quite different possible types of power and data delivery interfaces even in the most simple oxygen tubes. Taking mobile devices as an example, it used to be nightmare to find a charger for a phone before EU forced everyone (Apple) to use USB-C, but that can hinder the development of the next more advanced interface if it can't be fit in the same form factor as USB-C. At least it doesn't break as easily as micro-USB, but still...
Same kind of silo thinking that made the scrubber cannisters on the Apollo capsule square, while the ones on the LM were round. It's an echo of Apollo 13 all over again. Obviously not as critical, but the mentalities are the same. Failure of imagination.
You would think that after Apollo 13, compatibility would be a prime concern for NASA. That suits are not compatible within different capsules is criminal.
The problems here are legion. Making two completely different spacecraft carry the devices needed is expensive. Commercial Crew fell years behind (Yes, SpaceX was up to 5 years late with Crew Dragon) in getting a domestic LEO crew capability back to the U.S. because mainly in part Congress refused to fully fund it, and even then, they wanted only one provider selected, that being Boeing. In fact, some in Congress wanted no Commercial Crew at all and instead have NASA push through Orion as the crewed spacecraft. That we got two is what saved NASA's bacon overall here since SpaceX, while delayed several years, at least has gotten operational enough to carry the load while Boeing struggles with Starliner.
NASA achieved their goal in making Dragon and Starliner as distinct different as possible. The SpaceX dragon(s) work and the Boeing Starliner apparently does not work.
@@mrrolandlawrence No, not even close. Boeing is fixed price contracted for $4.2 billion. They don't get anything unless they deliver. Even counting the CCDev awards don't add that much to the total, and Space also received a like amount during that time. In addition, SpaceX received a bit less because they'd already been given a huge leg up during the development of Dragon 1 capsule for ISS cargo missions, the technologies of which and the experience gained flying Dragon 1 for several years, was put forward into Dragon 2. That comes to about $2 billion prior to Commercial Crew.
THANK YOU!! Everyone who has watched an “Oh no, Butch and Suni are stranded” video and made inane comments about return strategies, spacesuits, etc., need to watch this video. I worked for many years in the space industry and this captures the issues of contract requirements and NASA’s approach to risk management perfectly. There are too many YT’ers out there spreading misinformation or trying to rile people up. Cheers!
Everyone is freaking out about an emergency return on Crew Dragon when this was the same plan from just over a year ago when Soyuz was damaged. NASA determined the risk was too high to return on the damaged Soyuz so Astronaut Frank Rubio would ride in Crew Dragon in case of an emergency. The Soyuz seat liner was moved to Crew Dragon below one of it’s seats where he would be strapped in. Since Crew Dragon was designed for up to 7 crew the 2 cosmonauts could have joined them but Russia decided that the Soyuz with unknown extent of damaged coolant was safe enough in case of an emergency. Politics , stubbornness, pride, … seemed to override crew safety. History repeating?
No. You remembered wrong. Crew safety overrode everything else, and Roskosmos did the easy obvious thing. They sent up an empty spacecraft to bring them back. The damaged Soyuz was MS-22. When it was returned to earth, telemetry showed it would have been actually safe enough for the astronauts. If they had been inside it. It was returned uncrewed, because Soyuz can fly automatically without crew. Because they weren't quite sure, Roskosmos actually decided to send Soyuz MS-23 up uncrewed, in order to return the 3 astronauts that went up on MS-23.
The Kosmonauts, that came up with MS-22, got back home with MS-23, which was send up empty. 2 minor typo's, but otherwise correct. The problem with the seats should not be. Is it really still a problem, to invent a seat cushion, which automagically adjusts its form to fit its user? If NASA hasn't done this yet, it sounds like something that SpaceX would have already tryed. It is for the high g-forces, on launch and reentry, that the seats are made to formfit. With the now increasing numbers of crewed flights, invention of an automagic fitting seat should be of high priority. 🚀🏴☠️🎸
@danielch6662 No, You need to work on your reading comprehension skills. As I stated the plan I mentioned was in case of an emergency. Had there been an emergency during the 3 month gap to get the replacement Soyuz then the astronaut would have come down on Crew Dragon while the 2 Cosmonauts would have come down on the damaged Soyuz. The 4 assigned crew, 1 stranded astronaut and 2 stranded cosmonauts. Could all have risen on the Crew Dragon. It was Russia call to have them return on a damaged Soyuz if their was an emergency.
If Butch and Suni come back on Dragon, a pair of IVA Suits will be sent up with the Dragon! There are several different connectors for each EVA suit to supply, Air, Heat/Cooling, pressurisation and Comms. IVA suits do not have the Heat/Cooling I think (but they may have as the suits are to protect against module decompression such as an air leak and exposure to vacuum). With so many countries now in space I think an international standard for the connectors should be agreed, So each of the spacefaring countries can rescue others it an emergency. After all we are all human and it would be a good way to score diplomatic brownie points.
Is the other Starliner not ready? Or is there something wrong with the underlying design itself? When Soyuz MS-22 was damaged, the solution was to bring it back empty, and send up MS-23 empty to bring the crew back.
@@bobmcnelis3648 And yet, that's essentially what the plan is, if they decide to send Butch and Suni back on Dragon. They have all their measurements on file, they'll make them a set of suits, and send them up on the Crew 9 Dragon. The only issue comes if there's an emergency that requires evacuation in the brief period between Starliner undocking, and Crew 9 docking.
I believe there is only one instance of a crew dying during re-entry because the cabin depressurized. This was the Soyuz 11 return flight from the Salut 1 space station. The crew were not wearing suits. This probably led to the NASA requirement to wear pressure suits on return, and maybe other changes to capsule design.
Every US astronaut on Mercury, Gemini, Apollo spacecraft used a suit for pressure backup. Many X planes did as well. This is a standard practice. With the exception of STS-5 to STS-25 so did the Shuttle. It was a basic heritage design decision, not a reaction to Soyuz 11.
@@manyinterests1961 the Feitian was derived from the Sokol. How far has they diverged? How difficult would it be to bring them back into compatibility? Why doesn't the US just use that instead of reinventing new completely incompatible spacesuits with every new spacecraft?
@@MrKennyanders Looks like at least Apollo 11 and 12 didn't wear spacesuits for reentry. Have a NASA webpage about Apollo 12's splashdown and recovery open and it mentions Al Bean receiving a cut on his head which would be difficult to do through a helmet, "At the moment of splashdown, the CM hit a rising wave causing a harder than expected landing. The force of the impact displaced part of the heat shield and also dislodged the 16 mm film camera mounted in the window. The camera hit Bean in the head resulting in a gash and momentarily dazing him, causing him not to trip two circuit breakers to jettison the parachute lines. This resulted in the capsule assuming the apex down Stable 2 position in the water. Three self-inflating balloons righted the spacecraft into the Stable 1 upright orientation in less than five minutes."
Ad Astra makes a good point about NASA not mandating standardized connectors because they don't know what a good connector design would even be. Especially when you're not dealing with just physical connectors, but data connections as well. So have every company make their own, and the best design would likely become the standard, just like a lot of high tech stuff on the ground. I get the feeling though that SpaceX connection standards might become standard for the space industry as a whole...
Og, gee, I don't know.... how about TESTING connector designs (starting with those that have been in use since the 1960's) before expecting astronauts to depend on them? The problem is that NASA has ceded oversight of the development process completely to its vendors then explains it as 'maximizing redundancy'. Nonsense.
Why not just use the Sokol spacesuit? CNSA also use a version of Sokol. It's only the US that decided to reinvent two new completely incompatible spacesuits. Why? Has Energia not tested it enough in the last 70 years?
Yes. Probably Space x would win for 1 standard design. Same with tesla charging connector being the standard. I think many vendors line their pockets with the government money instead of actual top notch engineering. Boeing was run by an accountant for a few years. These Boeing problems were to be expected.
Take a look at the two spacesuits. They are designed to completely different spec and these specs were probably changing during the capsule design. Can you imagine what it would have been like if Boeing and SpaceX had to coordinate for a common suit interface? IF there were to be a common suit it would have made more sense to incorporate the Russian design since it has more or less been frozen for years.
@@jcassel61 On the other hand, here in the EU the CCS2 plug works just fine even without a wet towel in hot weather with 800V, 500A and a longer cable.
1:42 "It has shocked a lot of people that SpaceX & Boeing suits are not compatible." Nobody who has actually seen those suits are shocked. I mean... look at them. I don't expect my iPhone to be compatible with a Commodore Vic-20.
@@wpatrickw2012 I take it from your response that you don't know what a Commodore Vic-20 is. The issue isn't that they come from different companies but from different epochs.
@@wpatrickw2012 That is because the interface to the drive was built to a published standard. I've been working with/on small computers to remember the days before USB when there were several competing data transmission/storage technologies.
Pretty sure that it wouldn't take a huge engineering program to fabricate a hose with the dragon attachment on one end and the Boeing suit connector on the other.
And, to be perfectly fair, there's not even a real need for any data or voice connection in case of a contingency return, where Butch & Sunny end up riding back as cargo with Crew 8. Sure, it would be nice if they could talk to the Crew 8 folks during entry, but it isn't necesaary.
I agree that there should a basic emergency connection between all devices. Not a full use connection. Just basic. O2 recycle and communications. For such times they don't require the 150+ wires, fiber optics and digital read outs.
I think data may be difficult, air should be pretty simple, but they may not even run on the same voltage. It would certainly be possible but not as simple as blue wire to red wire
@@talkingonthespectrumdon't think the dragon can be connected with more than four suits. And if a dedicated dragon with two spare seats is sent, SpaceX could just manufacture 2 additional suits using Boeing's measurements.
@@solarissv777 it's designed from the beginning to carry 7. The current dragon may not be configured for 7 but the next one could be any they use that to come home. The dragon is rated for like 10+ months docked
Apollo 13 comes to mind. CO2 scrubbers were used in both the command module and excursion module but the replacement cartridges were not cross compatible. Reason: The two modules were designed by separate manufacturers who did NOT work together on anything not required. The lesson from Apollo 13 wasn't learned and today systems are designed and produced in a bubble of independent development. It creates proprietary design that excludes robust interoperability. Decades after Apollo 13, we're still repeating the same design errors.
I took a VIP tour of Houston space center and they talked about the space suits even back in 2022. The space X suits especially the gloves only work with space x touch screens in the dragon. Also the Orion suits and the HLS suits will also be different. NASA hasn’t standardized
I don't understand why NASA hasn't employed Bluetooth for suit communication. The reception limit of Bluetooth is about 30 feet. Voice and data can be carried on the connection, just like we have on our smart phones and smart watches. That would eliminate the need for hardware connections. All suit connectors would be for atmospheric needs. We've had Bluetooth for what, 20-25 years now? We're on Bluetooth V5.x to boot! Get it together, NASA!!! #dinosaur
Maybe for non-essential (routine) traffic. As a fallback for voice you can't beat AM radio IMO. It's a very simple technology with few potential points of failure.
@@BokoMoko65 I don’t know what the exact dollar figure per ounce is, but it cost a shit ton of money to put anything into space so an extra 30 pound suit in the closet probably cost as much as your house
Thank you for a very cogent explanation of why Butch and Sunni cannot just hitch a ride home in a crew dragon in their regular IVA suits. I've been trying for weeks to explain the compatibility issues and getting killed by the know-nothings who have no idea how complex space operations are.
Apollo 13 broke in flight where Starliner was launched broken. Good enough is not 100%, redundancy is not 100%, Nelson should have been fired weeks ago for letting the tin can launch in the first place.
@@stevenr8606 Correct...there wouldn't be a problem. However, The poster did legitimately mention the brief risk period when the starliner leaves the ISS versus when the SpaceX crew arrives.
This is one of the best RUclips videos I have seen in a LONG time. Your research was excellent, the delivery was professional, and the content was outstanding. This earned your video a "Thumbs up" and a "Subscribed" for your channel. The only bad thing is that now I am going to have to catch up on some of your previous content to see what other excellent reporting I may have missed. 😀 Please keep up the good work! 👌 Thank you so much!
Why did they not make Boeing and SpaceX space suits compatible? Because they didn't want to compromise the safety of SpaceX suits to Boeing standards.......
The new Boeing blue spacesuits is actually from a contractor. The same contractor that provided the space shuttle pumpkin suits (both the LES and ACES versions). Companies that makes spacecrafts normally do not make spacesuits. They are completely different things. Spacex is probably the first.
Thank you for your well thought out and extensive response to the Boeing/SpaceX suit incompatibility issue. You always manage to bring insightful fact based information to your videos. Congratulations on being one of our best Space Content Creators on RUclips.
The reason is the same reason NATO doesn’t require specific weapons systems. Having more than one vendor with multiple designs is a feature. The issue here is that the hook ups aren’t compatible. The plug hook ups need to be standardized, the way cannon barrel sizes are standardized.
Why does NASA even exist? Making space travel as safe as possible should be the goal. It looks like NASA is a welfare system for engineers and administrators. Where is the common sense?
Nato don't require specific weapons is because no one would ever agree on who gets the single biggest order of rifles since WW2. Every country with homegrown rifles, sidearms and all other types of weapons would want that contract
No but they do put forth a ammunition standard to run in those weapons. A Polish solder can hand off a magazine to a French solder in need of ammo and an artillery crew from the US can pick up shells from a German depot.
Seems to me that if they are going to come home on the Dragon capsule, they could take suits for them up with them or simply make an adapter for the suits. A short length of hose with the different connections on either end would do it.
They will make, and then bring suits on the dragon.....duh. Part of the reason for such a delay. They have to make them. They have the astronauts' measurements. So no worries kids.
Thanks for clearing this up for me. I was a bit confused what NASA was talking about and in which scenarios the Starliner crew might return without their suits.
11:21 I'm sure there's a lot of statistics involved, but it's indeed kinda funny when you realise one of the main proposals of paying for 2 different spacecrafts is to have one serve as a backup for another yet here we have a perfect situation where we need a backup just for the suits be incompatible.
You forgot to mention that the loss of a crew due to a lack of IVA suits has happened. Soyuz 11. Three cosmonauts Georgy Dobrovolsky, Vladislav Volkov, and Viktor Patsayev, died after visiting Salyut 1 for 21 days in because of a ventilation valve, located between the orbital module and the descent module, was stuck open as the descent module separated from the service module, 12 minutes and 3 seconds after retrofire. The crew was aware of what happened and tried to do something, but asphyxiated before they could reach it, and the Soyuz otherwise operated as it was supposed to, landing softly automatically.
Well, if ALL spacecraft have to have the exact same docking system, to be able to dock to the ISS at any available port, should there not be ONE universal design of a space suit for this exact issue they are encountering now? For me the SpaceX suit looks the best and is a LOT less bulky than what NASA can offer. International means. EVERYTHING must be universal. En to get into a Soyuz craft.
I believe the helmet also gonna be an issue: SpaceX has hard helmets and thus hard headrest (with all the padding inside the helmet), while Boeing uses a soft one (more akin to Soyuz Sokol suit) and padding in the headrest. As for the reason, it is rumored, that while the suits were designed, Musk got to know that Columbia astronauts died because of broken necks (due to high g-forces) and specifically requested that the spacesuit must be designed in a way to allow astronauts to survive those exact g-forces, thus hard bulky helmet.
@@solarissv777Columbia astronauts were blown to pieces by an exploding shuttle and/or burnt up by reentry. Challenger astronauts were slammed into rock-hard ocean because the shuttle had no parachutes or escape system for the crew compartment. Both killed through NASA hubris, greed, and incompetence. NASA: No Astronaut Survives Ascent.
Greetings from St. Kitts. You perform a wonderful task of explaining these topics. This channel is my ONLY source of space information. Keep up the great work! See you with the next video.
Making their Old Tech Boeing suits compatible would be a waste. Just send up SpaceX Suits. I am sure SpaceX could tailor something that would fit them well enough for the trip back. As someone else already stated, all this “Oh, the suits won’t work” and “Only Butch and Suni can undock Starliner” is just the same kind of hubris we have seen from ROSCOSMOS… And also as pointed out, NASA has already done this before with an American Soyuz astronaut!
Not requiring SpaceX and Boeing to use same connections for suits was the dumbest decision on NASA's part. Yep easy to say in hindsight but boy does it seems so logical.
You’ll never be able to build a better connector if you’re limited to the same old connector that everyone else is using. You can’t put today’s tire 🛞 on a Model T.
@@eugenejulson8742 You can't have a "better connector" when the connectors aren't shared between manufacturers. Just look at diving, something that's actually a comparable subject. Why do all the proprietary new fangled main connectors fail? The answer is because they aren't designed to be "better" they're just designed to work with one company's junk. They always go out of business and we always end up with the "same old" DIN and international connector types. If you actually trust your product is better you don't hide it inside a closed ecosystem. You want everyone to use it, because it's reliable and safe. I can walk into any dive shop anywhere in the world and buy a replacement for my regulator's first stage connection. It doesn't even matter what brand I'm using.
The dumbest decision by nasa was to use space x, as they are seeing very clearly now that their 3 billion is almost gone and space x has nothing to show for it!
actually abandoning merit for the correct gender & skin tone in hiring decisions is the dumbest decision. unlike refereeing an NBA game, lives are on the line in space. DEI is not compatible with competency and safety.
I think it's important to point out that NASA owns/SLS and space shuttle. They just paid someone else to build and maintain it. NASA does not own Starliner and Crew Dragon. Boing and SpaceX own them and sell seats/flights to NASA. This is an important distinction because it means NASA is not on the hook for cost over runs. Boeing is not set up for this kind of contract. They have been forced to maintain a certain budget or the contract could end up costing them, in this case, billions of dollars. The contract for SLS, on the other hand, is more along the lines of, "it's more than we thought, so pay up or you don't get your complete rocket." As for the compatibility issue, there are pros and cons. Force compatibility early in development, and you risk pigeon holing yourself into a suboptimal solution. I think they made the right decision, but this incident shows that future compatibility should definitely be on the table. But if you do go that route, you should be open to the idea of upgrades in the future. Standardization can lead to stagnation of innovation.
Tanks for another time efficient quality video! You're now in my regular rotation for space news and analysis alongside Scott Manley, Marcus House and NSF.
I'm beginning to think anyone taking a trip on the Starliner might win a Darwin award. I pray that those brave souls risking it stay safe and live to tell the tale.
Perhaps the question you should be asking is, why weren't a pair of SpaceX suits included in the inventory of the recent Progress Re-supply mission; A few extra kilos could easily have been accommodated on the Soyuz launch ???
Unfortunately, the real world doesn’t work that way. NASA might decide to mandate that all of their stuff needs to be compatible with an international standard, but they can’t force everyone else to comply. Likewise … half the western world would probably lose their ever loving minds if they had to share a specification with the Russians
Apollo 13's LM and CM filter shapes - somewhere I've read or heard that the LM's CO2 filters were same size and shape as ones used in the EVA suits' life support packs, and therefore smaller and requiring more frequent replacement than the CO2 filers in the CM. It does make "just in case of ..." sense for the moon landing module and the moonwalkers' life support packs to use a common CO2 filter.
What I don't understand is: Why doesn't NASA, SpaceX, Russia, China or any other space faring agency have a "Rescue" mission on standby? For example, SpaceX could have a rocket ready, with a capsule with enough seats and suits for everyone on the ISS, that only needs to be moved to a launchpad, fueled and launch in a very short amount of time. Maybe ready the rocket for the next flight as a rescue flight. When Crew 8 is up, have the rocket for Crew 9 as close to ready to launch as practical. If a rescue is needed, roll Crew 9 to the pad put a capsule on it than has enough seats and suits for every person on the ISS and send it up with with astronauts that are on standby (not members of the next crew). I know there's a lot of things about space flight that I don't understand. But it seems like there should be some means to get a rescue vehicle up there and get everybody off the ISS in his little time as practical.
It actually is important that they have suits because there is a lot of trash in orbit that could rupture the pressure capsule of the Crewdragon spacecraft. I remember a crewdragon recently that got too close to space debris.
If Boeing space crew can't connect to Space X for emergency..which is now showing up (1) see it was not planned for to use each ships for safe return..why couldn't make a ADAPTER CONNENECT TO USE EACH OTHER SHIP EQUIPMENT (2) STORE EXTRA SPACE SUITS IF TOO BIG REMEMBER ITS WOULD BE A SAFETY RESCUE TO GET BACK..IF SEAT A PROBLEM SET ON FLOOR(3) extra oxygen and safe line and hay NASE THESE ITEMS SHOULD HAVE BEEN PRINTED IN THEIR CONTRACT BEFOR YOU GAVE MONEY ..!!!!!!
Just found this video and decided to try it. Amazingly, I found your detailed description of the spacesuit issue so comprehensive and very well done, that it convinced me to immediately become a subscriber and look forward to future videos and perhaps look at some of your previous videos about space, etc. Happy to be aboard.
tech the ISS was unmanned for 2 or 3 hrs a few times when the Soyuz space craft had to relocate to a different docking port on the ISS .This during the time the space shuttle was grounded due to the Columbia misshape
Thanks for your careful explanation of many of the issues with the crew spacesuits. This is a little bit like how we ended up with different connections for charging EV’s on Earth. Designing a common spacesuit specification in advance would have added cost and complexity to the Commercial Crew program. I only think that it was unfair to compare the cost of the Space Shuttle with Crew Dragon since the Space Shuttle had a huge mass payload capacity that was essential for building the ISS. The Crew Dragon is carrying only a small “trunk” with the astronauts.
i think they should have left the 3 extra seats installed for emergencies as jump seats and required both Spacex and Boeing to make conversion systems for emergencies and require the both company's to release the info on connector and signal data so converters can be made for emergencies
I don’t understand why we can’t send up the new suits on a resupply mission so they have them and also why they keep saying that after starliner disconnects it will be 2 weeks before crew dragon launches? Why can’t they launch and they when the ship is hours away then disconnect starliner? I get that they want maximum distance between vessels but 2 weeks?
This cross compatibility issue is easily sovable. Each crew will carry an extra suite for the other type of ship. Each ship would have a maximum capacity of plugs available, at least for communication an emergency pressurization of the suite.
Ok, I think I get it. The suit is part of the spacecraft itself. Not like the docking ring on the ISS to which the spacecraft have to be compatible to fulfill the mission.
They could wear their suits, just seal up and if needed close the visor. There should be enough O2 inside the suit to keep them alive until below 10k ft. A supply mission could bring up a small O2 bottle for a chest mount with an adapter for the O2 line into the suit. Do not need much. Suit incompatibility is due to a complete lack of a standards manual.
@@calebfuller4713 the funny thing is that the next generation of SpaceX IVA/EVA universal suit gonna have something like this. From what I understood from Isaacman's interview, while the main life support during the Polaris Dawn EVA will be through the hose, the suit gonna have a redundancy life support on it, for the case if something happens to said hose during the EVA. Not sure if that redundancy life support can be used while seated though.
It sure seems to me that after 60+ years in space, and more if you count X-planes, high altitude recon planes, and stratospheric balloon ascents that the world should have one air mix and one set of universal fittings or at least a small kit of adapters on every spacecraft and space station or hell a bag on the spacesuit belt with a set of adapters, how hard could THAT be? Or emergency EVA suits, early SF authors were talking about that a hundred years ago. And the problems you cite go back to Apollo 1 disaster not just Apollo 13. Apollo at that time used pure oxygen not a mix since the stuff they breath would weigh less and be moved at a lower volume.
From what I remember from the Apollo 13 accident investigation report, the CO2 modules in the CM and LM were spec'ed to be compatible, but because they were built by different companies, nobody ever checked. Hm, sounds like Boeing and their massive outsourcing.
Thank for pointing out rhe critical flaw with a "pure fleet" design. Yup, if a design flaw is found with Widget XYZ, then *every* system using Widget XYZ now has that problem. We've literally faced thus problem recently where a huge segment of US military fighters and trainers were all grounded *simultaneously* because they shared a particular life support system, which turned out to be inherently flawed. (This is also why there are advocates for having multiple airframes for the same mission set - it is *not* , comtrary to "reformist" pundits, all about "pork barrel for the Military-Industrial Complex... it is real world experience with real world problems where a lack of systems redundancy has bit us hard in the butt.
Just Ike vehicle charging in North America has migrated to the NACS system, SpaceX specifications will likely become the standard in future spacecraft.
a suit adapter would be cool, every suit needs an adapter to plug into spaceX Dragon should be the rule... since that will likely be the ship coming to rescue them in every case:)
I was making breakfast on the other side of the room and I thought I'd have to come over here to type. Then you immediately mentioned the Apollo 13 square and circle problem, saving me a trip across the room. Thanks for getting to it so quick. Also, what the hell??????? ALL OF US can think of that example in less than one second?!?!?!?! How is it happening again?
Instead of making standardized connectors, why not make adaptors that can connect different suits to each spacecraft (like Apollo 13, only better)? Edit: Oh. Nevermind. She answered that question in the last minute of the video.
I heard that Starliner cannot undock from the ISS without crew onboard. Allegedly the software for autonomous undocking was not onboard the crewed Starliner. And that to update the software and upload it to Starliner will take weeks. Meanwhile Starliner's batteries are depleting, and will be at a critical level before the software is enabled. Is any of that the case?
How about leaving crew8 docked, then autonomously undocking starliner, and send crew9 up (carrying extra suits for butch and suni) ? There would be redundancy there!
For the present, NASA needs to get 2 Starliner seats and have SpaceX install those seats in a Dragon. Afterward, they need to build adapters that go each way.
Ah, because they don't exist. There was supposed to be automatic undock and reentry software on the Stayliner but since this was supposed to be a crewed test nobody at Boeing thought to test it. Typical pointy-haired manager behavior.
Boeing was so insightful in what TEST flight meant that they chose NOT to load autonomous return software.! Could have, but CHOSE not to. F*ing brilliant eh.!
Thanks for the insight. But not making them compatible was taking a good idea to far. They don’t need to be 100% compatible just for the basics. And it’s a system used in Software often: you design an interconnection and everything on either side can work any way the programmers want. This way you make sure that each side is 100% independent from the other while you still guarantee that they can work perfectly together.
This seems to be as big a miss as the CO2 filters on the Apollo Command Module and the Lunar Module being different shapes and sizes. Maybe current NASA engineers have never watched the movie Apollo 13.
It’s very simple why they can’t use a NASA suit on the Dragon capsule. The SpacEX suits plug into the seat for life systems! The NASA suits won’t plug into the suits! They either need SpaceX suits, or adapt their suit to plug into the SpaceX seat.
One thing I would like to address is that SpaceX is a specialized space company whereas Boeing is a jack of all trades aviation company. And the results SHOW! BTW, congratulations to SpaceX for their SUCCESSFUL Polaris Dawn spacewalk 😀!
The main issue is that the oxygen supply and return fittings are incompatible. The only absolute requirements are a fresh air supply and pressurization, everything else is optional. The latter is critical since if the pressure is too low then humans can't breath no matter how much oxygen is available.
@alexhajnal107 yeah I thought of that afterwards. Maybe do the reverse and get someone of Suni and Butch size to make a SpaceX suit? I'm not sure how accurate all of the measurements need to be for everything. Is it just the suit and seat/seat insert that gets customized?
@@13Jared Suit and seat insert. A proper suit would be preferable but I imagine they could do something like a backpacking sleeping bag if they had to come up with something on short notice. _cf._ the Shuttle-era Personal Rescue Enclosure.
it's time we did make some space suit adapters, Spacex to Boeing, Boeing to Russian, Russian to Chinese, all to all. We also need an ability to rapidly adapt or modify the docking ports on ships for different stations. This should be a Space Force thing, The Orbital Vacuum Emergency Network Multiuse International Transport Team (Oven Mitt).
Of course any replacement SpaceX suit would require a specially designed hair net for Sonny........ In fact I'm amazed that she doesn't have it tied back when in the ISS as who would want to find big strands of hair floating about at any time but especially at meal times,
I don't understand why NASA did not have Some sort of a safety backup plan for a human mission ? In my opinion, those astronauts should have addressed that issue before they boarded it.
![Gucci Mane & Sexyy Red - You Don't Love Me [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/j7IBqyFKT4c/mqdefault.jpg)
Considering that both Boeing and SpaceX are "new" vehicles, NASA should have specified a common connector just for this reason.
An adapter should not take that long to set up. All kinds of adapters have been set up for all kinds of mechanical and electrical things in the past. If they claim they cannot, that explains why Boeing and ULA and the like cannot seem to be able to build new systems using old technology within schedule and budget.
I find it strange, too, considering the docking ring for the capsule itself is of a standard design.
@@TheEDFLegacy We have the technology! Adaptors should not be impossible. That is unless we have people involved that just refuse to do the work.
The crew of Apollo 13 had the ultimate adaptor, Duct Tape!😄👍👍
Duct tape won't help.
@@steveadams7550Duct tape always helps
Yes, I was thinking about that similar situation where the air scrubbers in the CM were a different shape than those used in the LM.
Yeah back then things were still simple. Now there are probably many quite different possible types of power and data delivery interfaces even in the most simple oxygen tubes.
Taking mobile devices as an example, it used to be nightmare to find a charger for a phone before EU forced everyone (Apple) to use USB-C, but that can hinder the development of the next more advanced interface if it can't be fit in the same form factor as USB-C. At least it doesn't break as easily as micro-USB, but still...
Yeah, and just remember one more thing . If duct tape and a hammer 🔨 can’t fix it you have an electrical problem.
Same kind of silo thinking that made the scrubber cannisters on the Apollo capsule square, while the ones on the LM were round. It's an echo of Apollo 13 all over again. Obviously not as critical, but the mentalities are the same. Failure of imagination.
You would think that after Apollo 13, compatibility would be a prime concern for NASA. That suits are not compatible within different capsules is criminal.
The problems here are legion. Making two completely different spacecraft carry the devices needed is expensive. Commercial Crew fell years behind (Yes, SpaceX was up to 5 years late with Crew Dragon) in getting a domestic LEO crew capability back to the U.S. because mainly in part Congress refused to fully fund it, and even then, they wanted only one provider selected, that being Boeing.
In fact, some in Congress wanted no Commercial Crew at all and instead have NASA push through Orion as the crewed spacecraft.
That we got two is what saved NASA's bacon overall here since SpaceX, while delayed several years, at least has gotten operational enough to carry the load while Boeing struggles with Starliner.
NASA achieved their goal in making Dragon and Starliner as distinct different as possible. The SpaceX dragon(s) work and the Boeing Starliner apparently does not work.
but starliner did get $9.55bn in funding!
Something like the airplanes they make.
@@mrrolandlawrence No, not even close. Boeing is fixed price contracted for $4.2 billion. They don't get anything unless they deliver. Even counting the CCDev awards don't add that much to the total, and Space also received a like amount during that time.
In addition, SpaceX received a bit less because they'd already been given a huge leg up during the development of Dragon 1 capsule for ISS cargo missions, the technologies of which and the experience gained flying Dragon 1 for several years, was put forward into Dragon 2. That comes to about $2 billion prior to Commercial Crew.
Boeings def does NOT work. Proven.
@@mrrolandlawrence SpaceX got billions in taxpayer funding as well.
_Crew Dragon_ and Starliner ARE dissimilar.
_Crew Dragon_ WORKS.
Comparing Boeing to SpaceX...
Is like comparing South Park to Star Trek.
@@MrGchiasson>>> *SOUTH PARK* ain't nearly THAT bad.
Thank God!
South Park's comedy is infinitely more reliable than Starliner.
THANK YOU!! Everyone who has watched an “Oh no, Butch and Suni are stranded” video and made inane comments about return strategies, spacesuits, etc., need to watch this video. I worked for many years in the space industry and this captures the issues of contract requirements and NASA’s approach to risk management perfectly. There are too many YT’ers out there spreading misinformation or trying to rile people up. Cheers!
Everyone is freaking out about an emergency return on Crew Dragon when this was the same plan from just over a year ago when Soyuz was damaged. NASA determined the risk was too high to return on the damaged Soyuz so Astronaut Frank Rubio would ride in Crew Dragon in case of an emergency. The Soyuz seat liner was moved to Crew Dragon below one of it’s seats where he would be strapped in. Since Crew Dragon was designed for up to 7 crew the 2 cosmonauts could have joined them but Russia decided that the Soyuz with unknown extent of damaged coolant was safe enough in case of an emergency. Politics , stubbornness, pride, … seemed to override crew safety. History repeating?
No. You remembered wrong. Crew safety overrode everything else, and Roskosmos did the easy obvious thing. They sent up an empty spacecraft to bring them back.
The damaged Soyuz was MS-22. When it was returned to earth, telemetry showed it would have been actually safe enough for the astronauts. If they had been inside it. It was returned uncrewed, because Soyuz can fly automatically without crew.
Because they weren't quite sure, Roskosmos actually decided to send Soyuz MS-23 up uncrewed, in order to return the 3 astronauts that went up on MS-23.
The Kosmonauts, that came up with MS-22, got back home with MS-23, which was send up empty. 2 minor typo's, but otherwise correct.
The problem with the seats should not be. Is it really still a problem, to invent a seat cushion, which automagically adjusts its form to fit its user? If NASA hasn't done this yet, it sounds like something that SpaceX would have already tryed.
It is for the high g-forces, on launch and reentry, that the seats are made to formfit. With the now increasing numbers of crewed flights, invention of an automagic fitting seat should be of high priority.
🚀🏴☠️🎸
Russia has no hesitancy in placing it's Cosmonauts lives in danger. Just ask Komarov.
@@winfordnettles3292how many cosmonauts have they lost again?
@danielch6662 No, You need to work on your reading comprehension skills. As I stated the plan I mentioned was in case of an emergency. Had there been an emergency during the 3 month gap to get the replacement Soyuz then the astronaut would have come down on Crew Dragon while the 2 Cosmonauts would have come down on the damaged Soyuz. The 4 assigned crew, 1 stranded astronaut and 2 stranded cosmonauts. Could all have risen on the Crew Dragon. It was Russia call to have them return on a damaged Soyuz if their was an emergency.
If Butch and Suni come back on Dragon, a pair of IVA Suits will be sent up with the Dragon!
There are several different connectors for each EVA suit to supply, Air, Heat/Cooling, pressurisation and Comms. IVA suits do not have the Heat/Cooling I think (but they may have as the suits are to protect against module decompression such as an air leak and exposure to vacuum).
With so many countries now in space I think an international standard for the connectors should be agreed, So each of the spacefaring countries can rescue others it an emergency. After all we are all human and it would be a good way to score diplomatic brownie points.
The sizing is already with Boeing for Elon to make 2 suits, I would think the information is stored
I've been asking for this for years.
Middleware can be made to _translate_ between data streams just like APIs are used.
Clearly, agencies need to develop standards.
Is the other Starliner not ready? Or is there something wrong with the underlying design itself? When Soyuz MS-22 was damaged, the solution was to bring it back empty, and send up MS-23 empty to bring the crew back.
@@BoltRM This guy gets it...
Just send up suits on a supply mission.
Suits are VERY CUSTOM made. Not that easy
@bobmcnelis3648 THANK you!
@@bobmcnelis3648 And yet, that's essentially what the plan is, if they decide to send Butch and Suni back on Dragon. They have all their measurements on file, they'll make them a set of suits, and send them up on the Crew 9 Dragon. The only issue comes if there's an emergency that requires evacuation in the brief period between Starliner undocking, and Crew 9 docking.
If you actually watch the video, she explains that they are.
Silly NASA.
Thank heavens for your common sense insight.
I believe there is only one instance of a crew dying during re-entry because the cabin depressurized. This was the Soyuz 11 return flight from the Salut 1 space station. The crew were not wearing suits. This probably led to the NASA requirement to wear pressure suits on return, and maybe other changes to capsule design.
I don't remember Apollo having suits for re entry
Every US astronaut on Mercury, Gemini, Apollo spacecraft used a suit for pressure backup. Many X planes did as well. This is a standard practice. With the exception of STS-5 to STS-25 so did the Shuttle. It was a basic heritage design decision, not a reaction to Soyuz 11.
Meaningful standardization of suit attachments can only be done internationally between relevant players USA, Russia, China.
@@manyinterests1961 the Feitian was derived from the Sokol. How far has they diverged? How difficult would it be to bring them back into compatibility? Why doesn't the US just use that instead of reinventing new completely incompatible spacesuits with every new spacecraft?
@@MrKennyanders Looks like at least Apollo 11 and 12 didn't wear spacesuits for reentry. Have a NASA webpage about Apollo 12's splashdown and recovery open and it mentions Al Bean receiving a cut on his head which would be difficult to do through a helmet, "At the moment of splashdown, the CM hit a rising wave causing a harder than expected landing. The force of the impact displaced part of the heat shield and also dislodged the 16 mm film camera mounted in the window. The camera hit Bean in the head resulting in a gash and momentarily dazing him, causing him not to trip two circuit breakers to jettison the parachute lines. This resulted in the capsule assuming the apex down Stable 2 position in the water. Three self-inflating balloons righted the spacecraft into the Stable 1 upright orientation in less than five minutes."
Ad Astra makes a good point about NASA not mandating standardized connectors because they don't know what a good connector design would even be. Especially when you're not dealing with just physical connectors, but data connections as well. So have every company make their own, and the best design would likely become the standard, just like a lot of high tech stuff on the ground.
I get the feeling though that SpaceX connection standards might become standard for the space industry as a whole...
Og, gee, I don't know.... how about TESTING connector designs (starting with those that have been in use since the 1960's) before expecting astronauts to depend on them? The problem is that NASA has ceded oversight of the development process completely to its vendors then explains it as 'maximizing redundancy'. Nonsense.
Why not just use the Sokol spacesuit? CNSA also use a version of Sokol. It's only the US that decided to reinvent two new completely incompatible spacesuits. Why? Has Energia not tested it enough in the last 70 years?
Yes. Probably Space x would win for 1 standard design. Same with tesla charging connector being the standard. I think many vendors line their pockets with the government money instead of actual top notch engineering. Boeing was run by an accountant for a few years. These Boeing problems were to be expected.
Take a look at the two spacesuits. They are designed to completely different spec and these specs were probably changing during the capsule design. Can you imagine what it would have been like if Boeing and SpaceX had to coordinate for a common suit interface? IF there were to be a common suit it would have made more sense to incorporate the Russian design since it has more or less been frozen for years.
@@jcassel61 On the other hand, here in the EU the CCS2 plug works just fine even without a wet towel in hot weather with 800V, 500A and a longer cable.
1:42 "It has shocked a lot of people that SpaceX & Boeing suits are not compatible."
Nobody who has actually seen those suits are shocked. I mean... look at them.
I don't expect my iPhone to be compatible with a Commodore Vic-20.
I was thinking more on the lines of a Sinclair ZX-80.
But I expect my Flash drive from my laptop to work with my desktop, even if they are made by different companies.
@@wpatrickw2012 I take it from your response that you don't know what a Commodore Vic-20 is. The issue isn't that they come from different companies but from different epochs.
@@billmullins6833 i bought one of those when i got out of the army seemed like any computer at that time was $500 of course or more i learned basic
@@wpatrickw2012 That is because the interface to the drive was built to a published standard. I've been working with/on small computers to remember the days before USB when there were several competing data transmission/storage technologies.
Pretty sure that it wouldn't take a huge engineering program to fabricate a hose with the dragon attachment on one end and the Boeing suit connector on the other.
And, to be perfectly fair, there's not even a real need for any data or voice connection in case of a contingency return, where Butch & Sunny end up riding back as cargo with Crew 8. Sure, it would be nice if they could talk to the Crew 8 folks during entry, but it isn't necesaary.
I agree that there should a basic emergency connection between all devices. Not a full use connection. Just basic. O2 recycle and communications. For such times they don't require the 150+ wires, fiber optics and digital read outs.
If NASA wants to mitigate risk, tell boeing "BYE".
congress wouldn't let them
take suits up.
also, there is power data and air.
there is no problem creating an interface to allow one to connect to the connections of the other.
I think data may be difficult, air should be pretty simple, but they may not even run on the same voltage. It would certainly be possible but not as simple as blue wire to red wire
@@talkingonthespectrumdon't think the dragon can be connected with more than four suits. And if a dedicated dragon with two spare seats is sent, SpaceX could just manufacture 2 additional suits using Boeing's measurements.
@@solarissv777 it's designed from the beginning to carry 7. The current dragon may not be configured for 7 but the next one could be any they use that to come home. The dragon is rated for like 10+ months docked
Apollo 13 comes to mind. CO2 scrubbers were used in both the command module and excursion module but the replacement cartridges were not cross compatible. Reason: The two modules were designed by separate manufacturers who did NOT work together on anything not required. The lesson from Apollo 13 wasn't learned and today systems are designed and produced in a bubble of independent development. It creates proprietary design that excludes robust interoperability. Decades after Apollo 13, we're still repeating the same design errors.
Boeing will have plenty of time to redesign to the new SpaceX standard when their crafts are grounded!
And, SpaceX will gladly share the IP and knowledge if Boeing is magnanimous enough to ask.
I took a VIP tour of Houston space center and they talked about the space suits even back in 2022. The space X suits especially the gloves only work with space x touch screens in the dragon. Also the Orion suits and the HLS suits will also be different. NASA hasn’t standardized
I don't understand why NASA hasn't employed Bluetooth for suit communication. The reception limit of Bluetooth is about 30 feet. Voice and data can be carried on the connection, just like we have on our smart phones and smart watches. That would eliminate the need for hardware connections. All suit connectors would be for atmospheric needs.
We've had Bluetooth for what, 20-25 years now? We're on Bluetooth V5.x to boot!
Get it together, NASA!!! #dinosaur
Maybe for non-essential (routine) traffic. As a fallback for voice you can't beat AM radio IMO. It's a very simple technology with few potential points of failure.
It's probable that a simple adapter won't work either. Because not only the suits are different, the systems are different too.
Easy. Bring an extra suite for each crew member of the type of the other ship.
@@BokoMoko65 I don’t know what the exact dollar figure per ounce is, but it cost a shit ton of money to put anything into space so an extra 30 pound suit in the closet probably cost as much as your house
Thank you for a very cogent explanation of why Butch and Sunni cannot just hitch a ride home in a crew dragon in their regular IVA suits. I've been trying for weeks to explain the compatibility issues and getting killed by the know-nothings who have no idea how complex space operations are.
Engineering takes thoroughness. What's happening here? Trusting computer data that nobody verified? This should never have arisen. Never.
Apollo 13 broke in flight where Starliner was launched broken. Good enough is not 100%, redundancy is not 100%, Nelson should have been fired weeks ago for letting the tin can launch in the first place.
@@MrKennyanders B.I.N.G.O. !!!
The scenario with SpaceX returning the starliner crew will involve sending IVR suits for crew use.
🤔 I fail at 👀 seeing the problem.
@@stevenr8606 Correct...there wouldn't be a problem. However, The poster did legitimately mention the brief risk period when the starliner leaves the ISS versus when the SpaceX crew arrives.
I really enjoy your content. It’s precise, informative and well delivered.
This is one of the best RUclips videos I have seen in a LONG time. Your research was excellent, the delivery was professional, and the content was outstanding. This earned your video a "Thumbs up" and a "Subscribed" for your channel. The only bad thing is that now I am going to have to catch up on some of your previous content to see what other excellent reporting I may have missed. 😀 Please keep up the good work! 👌 Thank you so much!
Why did they not make Boeing and SpaceX space suits compatible? Because they didn't want to compromise the safety of SpaceX suits to Boeing standards.......
Finally space channel with actual real person talking in front of camera and not AI monotone voice. Thank you
Tim dodd
Felix schlang
Scott manley
Marcus house
Jordan Wright
NASA SPACEFLIGHT
The Space Race
TRM
@@swapshots4427 but nobody does it as nice as she does they are all guys
@@swapshots4427Elle in space
@@DB-zp9un
Thought of her immediately after.
They’ll send up spacex suits on the dragon capsule. No big deal.
Boeing spacesuits were designed in the 60s just like Starliner.
I don't see a lot of difference
Where are you getting that starliner was designed in the 60's?
The new Boeing blue spacesuits is actually from a contractor. The same contractor that provided the space shuttle pumpkin suits (both the LES and ACES versions). Companies that makes spacecrafts normally do not make spacesuits. They are completely different things. Spacex is probably the first.
you mean in 60 seconds right? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Don't write stupid comments please.
Thank you for your well thought out and extensive response to the Boeing/SpaceX suit incompatibility issue. You always manage to bring insightful fact based information to your videos. Congratulations on being one of our best Space Content Creators on RUclips.
This makes the situation so easily digestible. Thank you.
The reason is the same reason NATO doesn’t require specific weapons systems.
Having more than one vendor with multiple designs is a feature. The issue here is that the hook ups aren’t compatible. The plug hook ups need to be standardized, the way cannon barrel sizes are standardized.
True! Maybe have Adapters for emergencies like this one?
@@gorgonbert
Adapters are bad. You don’t add parts unless absolutely necessary.
Could you imagine needing adapters for every brand of light bulb?
Why does NASA even exist? Making space travel as safe as possible should be the goal. It looks like NASA is a welfare system for engineers and administrators. Where is the common sense?
Nato don't require specific weapons is because no one would ever agree on who gets the single biggest order of rifles since WW2. Every country with homegrown rifles, sidearms and all other types of weapons would want that contract
No but they do put forth a ammunition standard to run in those weapons. A Polish solder can hand off a magazine to a French solder in need of ammo and an artillery crew from the US can pick up shells from a German depot.
Seems to me that if they are going to come home on the Dragon capsule, they could take suits for them up with them or simply make an adapter for the suits. A short length of hose with the different connections on either end would do it.
They will make, and then bring suits on the dragon.....duh.
Part of the reason for such a delay. They have to make them. They have the astronauts' measurements. So no worries kids.
Well, starliner and dragon ARE as dissimilar as possible. I mean, dragon actually works ;)
Thank you! This information you have provided is very helpful.
Thanks for clearing this up for me. I was a bit confused what NASA was talking about and in which scenarios the Starliner crew might return without their suits.
11:21 I'm sure there's a lot of statistics involved, but it's indeed kinda funny when you realise one of the main proposals of paying for 2 different spacecrafts is to have one serve as a backup for another yet here we have a perfect situation where we need a backup just for the suits be incompatible.
You forgot to mention that the loss of a crew due to a lack of IVA suits has happened. Soyuz 11.
Three cosmonauts Georgy Dobrovolsky, Vladislav Volkov, and Viktor Patsayev, died after visiting Salyut 1 for 21 days in because of a ventilation valve, located between the orbital module and the descent module, was stuck open as the descent module separated from the service module, 12 minutes and 3 seconds after retrofire. The crew was aware of what happened and tried to do something, but asphyxiated before they could reach it, and the Soyuz otherwise operated as it was supposed to, landing softly automatically.
I bet Elon and SpaceX could come up with an excellent adapter for the suits real quick.
Well, if ALL spacecraft have to have the exact same docking system, to be able to dock to the ISS at any available port, should there not be ONE universal design of a space suit for this exact issue they are encountering now? For me the SpaceX suit looks the best and is a LOT less bulky than what NASA can offer. International means. EVERYTHING must be universal. En to get into a Soyuz craft.
I believe the helmet also gonna be an issue: SpaceX has hard helmets and thus hard headrest (with all the padding inside the helmet), while Boeing uses a soft one (more akin to Soyuz Sokol suit) and padding in the headrest.
As for the reason, it is rumored, that while the suits were designed, Musk got to know that Columbia astronauts died because of broken necks (due to high g-forces) and specifically requested that the spacesuit must be designed in a way to allow astronauts to survive those exact g-forces, thus hard bulky helmet.
@@solarissv777Columbia astronauts were blown to pieces by an exploding shuttle and/or burnt up by reentry. Challenger astronauts were slammed into rock-hard ocean because the shuttle had no parachutes or escape system for the crew compartment. Both killed through NASA hubris, greed, and incompetence. NASA: No Astronaut Survives Ascent.
Greetings from St. Kitts. You perform a wonderful task of explaining these topics. This channel is my ONLY source of space information. Keep up the great work! See you with the next video.
I guess they cannot make an universal external adapter box/suitcase?
Really great explanatory video, thank you for your great briefing.
Making their Old Tech Boeing suits compatible would be a waste. Just send up SpaceX Suits. I am sure SpaceX could tailor something that would fit them well enough for the trip back. As someone else already stated, all this “Oh, the suits won’t work” and “Only Butch and Suni can undock Starliner” is just the same kind of hubris we have seen from ROSCOSMOS…
And also as pointed out, NASA has already done this before with an American Soyuz astronaut!
Not requiring SpaceX and Boeing to use same connections for suits was the dumbest decision on NASA's part. Yep easy to say in hindsight but boy does it seems so logical.
You’ll never be able to build a better connector if you’re limited to the same old connector that everyone else is using.
You can’t put today’s tire 🛞 on a Model T.
@@eugenejulson8742 You can't have a "better connector" when the connectors aren't shared between manufacturers.
Just look at diving, something that's actually a comparable subject. Why do all the proprietary new fangled main connectors fail?
The answer is because they aren't designed to be "better" they're just designed to work with one company's junk.
They always go out of business and we always end up with the "same old" DIN and international connector types.
If you actually trust your product is better you don't hide it inside a closed ecosystem. You want everyone to use it, because it's reliable and safe.
I can walk into any dive shop anywhere in the world and buy a replacement for my regulator's first stage connection. It doesn't even matter what brand I'm using.
The dumbest decision by nasa was to use space x, as they are seeing very clearly now that their 3 billion is almost gone and space x has nothing to show for it!
actually abandoning merit for the correct gender & skin tone in hiring decisions is the dumbest decision. unlike refereeing an NBA game, lives are on the line in space. DEI is not compatible with competency and safety.
I think it's important to point out that NASA owns/SLS and space shuttle. They just paid someone else to build and maintain it. NASA does not own Starliner and Crew Dragon. Boing and SpaceX own them and sell seats/flights to NASA.
This is an important distinction because it means NASA is not on the hook for cost over runs. Boeing is not set up for this kind of contract. They have been forced to maintain a certain budget or the contract could end up costing them, in this case, billions of dollars. The contract for SLS, on the other hand, is more along the lines of, "it's more than we thought, so pay up or you don't get your complete rocket."
As for the compatibility issue, there are pros and cons. Force compatibility early in development, and you risk pigeon holing yourself into a suboptimal solution. I think they made the right decision, but this incident shows that future compatibility should definitely be on the table. But if you do go that route, you should be open to the idea of upgrades in the future. Standardization can lead to stagnation of innovation.
Tanks for another time efficient quality video! You're now in my regular rotation for space news and analysis alongside Scott Manley, Marcus House and NSF.
Cross compatibility would limit innovation. You can’t make a better connector if you’re restricted to the one that’s compatible.
what? its a connector not a 5 axis milling machine.
@@thejoshman3843 without upgrades a five axis milling machine would still be a lathe.
I'm beginning to think anyone taking a trip on the Starliner might win a Darwin award. I pray that those brave souls risking it stay safe and live to tell the tale.
Very well written and presented
This is a really excellent episode. You explain the issues and trade-offs quite well.
Thank you!
Perhaps the question you should be asking is, why weren't a pair of SpaceX suits included in the inventory of the recent Progress Re-supply mission; A few extra kilos could easily have been accommodated on the Soyuz launch ???
It's pretty silly all suits should be compatible with all craft , no matter who makes them ..
It's not necessary. All we have to do is bring an extra suite for each crew member. No big deal.
Unfortunately, the real world doesn’t work that way. NASA might decide to mandate that all of their stuff needs to be compatible with an international standard, but they can’t force everyone else to comply.
Likewise … half the western world would probably lose their ever loving minds if they had to share a specification with the Russians
Apollo 13's LM and CM filter shapes - somewhere I've read or heard that the LM's CO2 filters were same size and shape as ones used in the EVA suits' life support packs, and therefore smaller and requiring more frequent replacement than the CO2 filers in the CM. It does make "just in case of ..." sense for the moon landing module and the moonwalkers' life support packs to use a common CO2 filter.
What I don't understand is:
Why doesn't NASA, SpaceX, Russia, China or any other space faring agency have a "Rescue" mission on standby?
For example, SpaceX could have a rocket ready, with a capsule with enough seats and suits for everyone on the ISS, that only needs to be moved to a launchpad, fueled and launch in a very short amount of time.
Maybe ready the rocket for the next flight as a rescue flight. When Crew 8 is up, have the rocket for Crew 9 as close to ready to launch as practical. If a rescue is needed, roll Crew 9 to the pad put a capsule on it than has enough seats and suits for every person on the ISS and send it up with with astronauts that are on standby (not members of the next crew).
I know there's a lot of things about space flight that I don't understand. But it seems like there should be some means to get a rescue vehicle up there and get everybody off the ISS in his little time as practical.
It actually is important that they have suits because there is a lot of trash in orbit that could rupture the pressure capsule of the Crewdragon spacecraft. I remember a crewdragon recently that got too close to space debris.
If Boeing space crew can't connect to Space X for emergency..which is now showing up (1) see it was not planned for to use each ships for safe return..why couldn't make a ADAPTER CONNENECT TO USE EACH OTHER SHIP EQUIPMENT (2) STORE EXTRA SPACE SUITS IF TOO BIG REMEMBER ITS WOULD BE A SAFETY RESCUE TO GET BACK..IF SEAT A PROBLEM SET ON FLOOR(3) extra oxygen and safe line and hay NASE THESE ITEMS SHOULD HAVE BEEN PRINTED IN THEIR CONTRACT BEFOR YOU GAVE MONEY ..!!!!!!
Just found this video and decided to try it. Amazingly, I found your detailed description of the spacesuit issue so comprehensive and very well done, that it convinced me to immediately become a subscriber and look forward to future videos and perhaps look at some of your previous videos about space, etc. Happy to be aboard.
Not surprised. The Apollo scrubber cartridges on the LEM and the Command module were different.
tech the ISS was unmanned for 2 or 3 hrs a few times when the Soyuz space craft had to relocate to a different docking port on the ISS .This during the time the space shuttle was grounded due to the Columbia misshape
Thanks for your careful explanation of many of the issues with the crew spacesuits. This is a little bit like how we ended up with different connections for charging EV’s on Earth. Designing a common spacesuit specification in advance would have added cost and complexity to the Commercial Crew program.
I only think that it was unfair to compare the cost of the Space Shuttle with Crew Dragon since the Space Shuttle had a huge mass payload capacity that was essential for building the ISS. The Crew Dragon is carrying only a small “trunk” with the astronauts.
i think they should have left the 3 extra seats installed for emergencies as jump seats
and required both Spacex and Boeing to make conversion systems for emergencies and require the both company's to release the info on connector and signal data so converters can be made for emergencies
I can imagine that this is innovative period might transition into next generation of suits compatible in all capsules/ crafts
It just makes sense
New sub here! This video was so informative and answered so many questions I had. Thanks for making it and dispelling the confusion.
I don’t understand why we can’t send up the new suits on a resupply mission so they have them and also why they keep saying that after starliner disconnects it will be 2 weeks before crew dragon launches? Why can’t they launch and they when the ship is hours away then disconnect starliner? I get that they want maximum distance between vessels but 2 weeks?
This cross compatibility issue is easily sovable. Each crew will carry an extra suite for the other type of ship. Each ship would have a maximum capacity of plugs available, at least for communication an emergency pressurization of the suite.
Comms aren't strictly needed. The only absolute requirements are lines for air in and out plus pressurization.
Ok, I think I get it. The suit is part of the spacecraft itself. Not like the docking ring on the ISS to which the spacecraft have to be compatible to fulfill the mission.
They could wear their suits, just seal up and if needed close the visor. There should be enough O2 inside the suit to keep them alive until below 10k ft. A supply mission could bring up a small O2 bottle for a chest mount with an adapter for the O2 line into the suit. Do not need much.
Suit incompatibility is due to a complete lack of a standards manual.
Piss poor forward thinking caused this 'problem'
Should have manufactured some kind of standalone emergency life support packs and sent them on Cygnus (as it uses a different type of ports).
I was thinking the same thing. It seems a no-brainer that there should be a stand-alone portable backup system they can plug into.
@@calebfuller4713 the funny thing is that the next generation of SpaceX IVA/EVA universal suit gonna have something like this. From what I understood from Isaacman's interview, while the main life support during the Polaris Dawn EVA will be through the hose, the suit gonna have a redundancy life support on it, for the case if something happens to said hose during the EVA. Not sure if that redundancy life support can be used while seated though.
You still need to scrub the CO₂ and ensure pressurization is maintained.
What an excellent explanation of the issues. Thank you.
It sure seems to me that after 60+ years in space, and more if you count X-planes, high altitude recon planes, and stratospheric balloon ascents that the world should have one air mix and one set of universal fittings or at least a small kit of adapters on every spacecraft and space station or hell a bag on the spacesuit belt with a set of adapters, how hard could THAT be? Or emergency EVA suits, early SF authors were talking about that a hundred years ago. And the problems you cite go back to Apollo 1 disaster not just Apollo 13. Apollo at that time used pure oxygen not a mix since the stuff they breath would weigh less and be moved at a lower volume.
From what I remember from the Apollo 13 accident investigation report, the CO2 modules in the CM and LM were spec'ed to be compatible, but because they were built by different companies, nobody ever checked. Hm, sounds like Boeing and their massive outsourcing.
Not true.
Reminds me of apollo 13's problem to put a square peg into a round hole during the CO2 scrubbers emergency
Thank for pointing out rhe critical flaw with a "pure fleet" design. Yup, if a design flaw is found with Widget XYZ, then *every* system using Widget XYZ now has that problem.
We've literally faced thus problem recently where a huge segment of US military fighters and trainers were all grounded *simultaneously* because they shared a particular life support system, which turned out to be inherently flawed. (This is also why there are advocates for having multiple airframes for the same mission set - it is *not* , comtrary to "reformist" pundits, all about "pork barrel for the Military-Industrial Complex... it is real world experience with real world problems where a lack of systems redundancy has bit us hard in the butt.
Just Ike vehicle charging in North America has migrated to the NACS system, SpaceX specifications will likely become the standard in future spacecraft.
I hope Starliner is so done. it's time for the dream chaser. Hi skrishna !
a suit adapter would be cool, every suit needs an adapter to plug into spaceX Dragon should be the rule... since that will likely be the ship coming to rescue them in every case:)
I was making breakfast on the other side of the room and I thought I'd have to come over here to type.
Then you immediately mentioned the Apollo 13 square and circle problem, saving me a trip across the room.
Thanks for getting to it so quick.
Also, what the hell??????? ALL OF US can think of that example in less than one second?!?!?!?! How is it happening again?
Instead of making standardized connectors, why not make adaptors that can connect different suits to each spacecraft (like Apollo 13, only better)? Edit: Oh. Nevermind. She answered that question in the last minute of the video.
I heard that Starliner cannot undock from the ISS without crew onboard. Allegedly the software for autonomous undocking was not onboard the crewed Starliner. And that to update the software and upload it to Starliner will take weeks. Meanwhile Starliner's batteries are depleting, and will be at a critical level before the software is enabled. Is any of that the case?
How about leaving crew8 docked, then autonomously undocking starliner, and send crew9 up (carrying extra suits for butch and suni) ? There would be redundancy there!
For the present, NASA needs to get 2 Starliner seats and have SpaceX install those seats in a Dragon. Afterward, they need to build adapters that go each way.
If the Boeing capsule requires a Sacrificial Human pilot, why can't they send a robot pilot that can execute commands from the ground?
Ah, because they don't exist. There was supposed to be automatic undock and reentry software on the Stayliner but since this was supposed to be a crewed test nobody at Boeing thought to test it. Typical pointy-haired manager behavior.
Boeing was so insightful in what TEST flight meant that they chose NOT to load autonomous return software.!
Could have, but CHOSE not to.
F*ing brilliant eh.!
But in their defense: They only had five years since testing commenced. Who had time to think about this thing actually leaving the ground?.......
Nasa must have a thorough set of measurements for the astronauts. SpaceX could bring along a set of suits with those measurements in Crew Dragon.
Thanks for the insight. But not making them compatible was taking a good idea to far. They don’t need to be 100% compatible just for the basics. And it’s a system used in Software often: you design an interconnection and everything on either side can work any way the programmers want. This way you make sure that each side is 100% independent from the other while you still guarantee that they can work perfectly together.
This seems to be as big a miss as the CO2 filters on the Apollo Command Module and the Lunar Module being different shapes and sizes. Maybe current NASA engineers have never watched the movie Apollo 13.
Build adapters and test, make new dragon spacesuits in their sizes with instructions that they can study beforehand.
They are going to have Dragon spacesuits sent up on the next flight!
Why is it so surprising that different suits are incompatible with each other?
It’s very simple why they can’t use a NASA suit on the Dragon capsule. The SpacEX suits plug into the seat for life systems! The NASA suits won’t plug into the suits! They either need SpaceX suits, or adapt their suit to plug into the SpaceX seat.
One thing I would like to address is that SpaceX is a specialized space company whereas Boeing is a jack of all trades aviation company. And the results SHOW!
BTW, congratulations to SpaceX for their SUCCESSFUL Polaris Dawn spacewalk 😀!
Here is another idea maybe NASA could send up a couple deep sea diving suits they would still make a couple of adapters.
Can't SpaceX just get ahold of 2 people of Suni and Butch approximate size with a Boeing suit and mold the next crew seats to that?
The main issue is that the oxygen supply and return fittings are incompatible. The only absolute requirements are a fresh air supply and pressurization, everything else is optional. The latter is critical since if the pressure is too low then humans can't breath no matter how much oxygen is available.
@alexhajnal107 yeah I thought of that afterwards. Maybe do the reverse and get someone of Suni and Butch size to make a SpaceX suit? I'm not sure how accurate all of the measurements need to be for everything. Is it just the suit and seat/seat insert that gets customized?
@@13Jared Suit and seat insert. A proper suit would be preferable but I imagine they could do something like a backpacking sleeping bag if they had to come up with something on short notice. _cf._ the Shuttle-era Personal Rescue Enclosure.
it's time we did make some space suit adapters, Spacex to Boeing, Boeing to Russian, Russian to Chinese, all to all. We also need an ability to rapidly adapt or modify the docking ports on ships for different stations. This should be a Space Force thing, The Orbital Vacuum Emergency Network Multiuse International Transport Team (Oven Mitt).
Actually this was my first question years ago when they started to develop.
And now i watch the video.
Of course any replacement SpaceX suit would require a specially designed hair net for Sonny........
In fact I'm amazed that she doesn't have it tied back when in the ISS as who would want to find big strands of hair floating about at any time but especially at meal times,
Tie your hands down.
We do very much need to standardize space hardware. Isn't there like 3 different docking adaptors on the ISS?
This is going to get even more out of control when we have 4 or 5 stations in orbit all built by different companies, collaborations, countries.
I don't understand why NASA did not have Some sort of a safety backup plan for a human mission ? In my opinion, those astronauts should have addressed that issue before they boarded it.
If that re-entry vehicle breaks up on the way in, a suit of Unobtainium wouldn't do anything.