Hands down the best piano/ keyboard reviewer on the internet, bar none! Strikes just the right balance of technical details, musical impressions, and practical considerations like maintenance, serviceability, longevity, and applicability to real life situations (home use versus studio, etc.😃😃😃👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
While I agree that these videos are top notch, they really are piano demonstrations at best and not "reviews" per say, because that would imply they're impartial to some extent, which they are not. By definition, if you as a company sell a product, you can't post an impartial review about that product.
Does anyone have any information on *Mangeot et Freres, New York, Systeme Steinway* ? My father bought a 2nd hand one years ago, and it's still in the family.
Hi there! i don't have a ton of information on these pianos, but I have seen them pop up on the used market over the years. I believe these were New York made Steinways (partially at least) that were imported by the Mangeot family into France. From my understanding, the Mangeot brothers were responsible for building the cabinets as well as prepping, regulating, and intonating the instruments using Steinway actions and mechanics that were imported from New York. The target market for these instruments were wealthy upper-class citizens in France and Great Britain. To that point, most of the Mangeot-Steinway pianos I have come across have exceptionally ornate cabinets and very beautiful finishing work. The following post from Piano World has some helpful information: forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3410955/mangeot-steinway.html
I have played on a Bechstein and can argue your comment, the Bechstein is incredible but it , in my opinion can not come close to the amazing signature of my 1914 Bluthner 190cm Aliquot grand piano, bar none. It is referred to as the golden tone and I can vouch for that, if any doubt than please come to my home and play my Darling Charlotte and prove me otherwise.
Is it just me, or Steinway is the Apple of pianos? It is known by everybody If you sign up with them, you cannot use the other brands, it created an elitist culture around itself, in which people tend to talk down on other brands It is all around the world as a must because "others use it" It is good, but maybe not as uniquely magnificent and unrivaled as it is advertised... (yes, I am not a fan of Steinways. Simply because I prefer the sound profile of Bösendorfers - or at least some german-style, deep bassed, clearer sounding brand)
I certainly understand the analogy and comparison you are making. Like Apple, Steinway has one of the most powerful brands in the industry. With that said, it is certainly not unmerited in the sense that they make fantastic instruments! However, there are so many incredible premium piano manufacturers out there that it would be silly to dismiss them if you are truly looking for an instrument that you resonate with emotionally. :)
Awesome video, I love these little match ups of similarities and differences. Very well balanced and delivered comparison. Not that I've played many... But the Steinway's I've played always seem a bit middle of the road, where as to me, the Bechstein's seem to really sing. Then again, I'm not a concert pianist..
Dear Stu, I cannot say how much I enjoy your piano reviews since I began learning how to play piano! In my opinion you are offering the highest quality piano review videos out there! : ) Stu, as a suggestion, could you please make a video about what will change with MIDI 2.0 for piano players/live performers/composers? Best Regards, Björn
you are my go to piano review guy, thanks for the videos! one thing i would say is in the comparison videos it would really help to hear the same piece played on both instruments back to back, I know in a video youve said you werent great at doing so but would really help to grasp how the sound compares between two pianos. Thanks for the content man.
I won a brand new C.Bechstein in a competition - cost $0. Sold it for a massive profit. Never say never :). Great video btw: and yes the action on my C.Bechstein was amazingly well regulated. I have yet to measure any other instrument so perfectly handcrafted.
I´ve just read Aldo Ciccolini´s opinion (in 2011) about both brands, and he loathed "some Steinways" as "devices for relieving rheumatism. For me, the ideal piano today is a Bechstein".
My university had a baby grand in a practice room. It was unfortunate that it was in such a small room, because it had such a strong sound. I also recall the upper few octaves were remarkably clear
there are 2 aspects to a piano which are equally important. The first is purely technical, how the piano is made, what woods are used etc ... and the second is totally subjective, it is personal. it is very difficult, if not impossible, to say that one piano is better than another. For me the best pianos in the world are Bechstein, Blüthner, Steinway, Bossendorf, Fazioli and the Yamaha CFX. but trying to figure out which piano is number 1 number 2 number 3 etc ... makes no sense to me it's like asking which is the best sports car? Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Aston Martin? they are all equally incredible and the difference will be made on a personal level. The same goes for a piano. in my case I had 3 piano teachers between 9 and 18 years old. Two of these teachers had a Steinway. Most of the musicians I listened to and loved, in classical, like Robert Casadesus, Wilhem Kempf or Glen Gould, for example, played on a Steinway. The same in Jazz. Oscar Peterson, Erroll Garner, Keith Jarret, Bill Evans and many others played on a Steinway. therefore Steinway has been, is and always will be the best piano for me regardless of the quality of the others yet excellent too. because the sound of a Steinway is completely ingrained in my head and yes it is totally subjective. And thank you for this nice and interesting video.
I'd add Shigeru Kawai to the mix of great pianos and there's Steingraeber and Mason and Hamlin as well. Peterson also played and enjoyed a Bosendorfer which got him in trouble with Steinway. And Gould played a Yamaha CF after his Steinway was dropped. Some great players, like Richter, enjoyed both Steinway and Yamaha's (Yamaha's CF's). Herbie Hancock seems to be favoring Faziolis now. Olga Kern went from Yamaha to Steinway. Emmanuel Ax sometimes likes to play the CFX vs. the Steinway D.
@@leeloopatsy Absolutely, Richard. Some pianos are more special than others, even the same make and model. And sometimes a less expensive piano can just have a magic to it and sounds as good as a more expensive one.
I have never heard of Bossendorf pianos, are they any good? Also the reason why all these famous Piano players use Steinway is because they have no option or they are bribed into it. Steinway has aggressive marketing and practices where concert halls are forced to purchase Steinways only. The same happens with music schools where students only get exposed to that brand and are never given any opportunity to try something different (except Yamaha once in a blue moon). Steinway is like Apple and Tesla, which are able to create a cult around them with subjective claims about quality which are not there. I am not saying Steinways are bad, on the contrary, they are excellent, but NOT the best. Far from that.
@@johndavolta3124 lol. Do you understand what you’re saying ? how do you think Steinway can force schools, operas and pianists to play only on Steinway pianos ??? What if they don’t ? They will burn their houses, rape their wives and daughters, beat the guys to death? You’re probably watching too much Netflix. And besides you’re probably not even a pianist if you’ve never heard about Bosendorfer.
I would pick a point with you, sir: The earlier Bechstein concert line (agraffes for every note, three hitch pins for all treble notes) had plenty of coloristic effects available. That wasn't the point. Schulze and Thomma wanted the instruments to be louder, at the expense of much else. They have achieved that. When I was looking for a Bechstein, I went looking for one with a serial number in the 170,000's. Found it. It's here in Toronto now. George Stimpson maintains that it's one of the five top pianos in the entire city.
The Bechsteins you play in your videos are wonderful. But my guess is that your approach to harmonic and style ( very similar to mine) matches, perhaps, the sound of some of the very best Steinway signature sound.
I have heard that not all Steinways are good in fact a lot of the newer Steinways are not built that well at all. I saw this on more than one RUclips channel which is unfortunate because I held them to the highest standard but after hearing several people say the same thing they are just not built like they used to. I would have definitely had to put the Yamaha CFX 9 foot Grant concert piano on this as it seems to be unbeatable in that category done tons and tons of research and every performer I have seen has been blown away about it. Bows and Dorf was bought out by Yamaha
Steinway seems a bit like a Gibson of the piano world. Classic, iconic sound and generally good quality but recently a bit inconsistent. You’re gonna want to play a few of them and take home the exact one you like. Whereas Bechstein is maybe more like a PRS, consistently great quality and tone but will always sound distinctly like a PRS.
I cannot claim any kind of expert knowledge when it comes to pianos, but I think I have not heard any piano sound nicer than the best from Boesendorfer
No, Stu is referring to the tone of the treble section. A "bell-like" tone is a sound that resembles that of a bell. A "bell-like" tone is usually described as a distinct, quick attack followed by a long decay time of the fundamental pitch. Thanks for the question and hope this helps! :)
This is a bit like photographers comparing cameras and lenses WITHOUT showing any of the images themselves. How about a sound comparison? People don't buy pianos as living room furniture or to admire their technical specifications in silence.
Hi! This particular video is just an overview of the two brands. We have many videos on our channel that showcase Bechstein and Steinway pianos in action. Specs and company philosophy are no doubt interesting and important to some customers, but the sound and touch that a piano offers is always paramount. :)
These are very different pianos of course (the T177 being a grand versus the K500 being an upright). With that said, the T177 would be the superior piano in my opinion. Beyond the musical benefits that come along with a grand piano, the W. Hoffmann T series instruments belong to a higher quality tier than the Kawai K series uprights (which is reflected in the price of course).
I bought my brand new Yamaha 7' 4" in 1985 brought to my home still in the crate from Japan. I paid $10K for it. Now the same piano sells for over $100K. So I would say you are off on your money angle.
That is a very good investment! It is true that the used market inflates along with the new market to a certain extent, but the age/condition of the instrument factor into the equation of course.
There is certainly a difference when it comes to brand recognition (particularly in places outside of Europe). With that said, C. Bechstein pianos tend to speak for themselves as well once a player has a chance to sit down at one.
So you're saying that a 2002 well maintained B212 isn't the equal of a 5yr old B212 all things being equal?? Because this AM I have to choose between a rather new Steinway B and a well maintained 2002 B212 I presume (7foot) at an Arts Center..
Hi! Brent here! It is important to note that musical preferences are highly-subjective. At the end of the day, the "right" sound is the sound that you personally feel most inspired by. My suggestion would be to audition the instruments you are deciding between thoroughly to determine which you prefer. There are a number of factors that come into play when comparing a 2002 B212 and a 2019 B212. The condition of the instrument, how well it has been maintained, and how well it has been prepped (i.e. tuning, voicing, etc.) by a technician will all impact the musical experience it yields.
I have a C.Bechestein Concert Grand, it blows away a Steinway I had before. Real Ivory Keys too - problem is - am 80 and what will happen to it some day ! I bought it in 1983 - holds its tune perfectly, tuned twice a year - Located in Central New Jersey. Open to ideas ! Phil
Hi! Brent here! Congrats on your C. Bechstein concert grand! They are wonderful pianos with unparalleled expressivity and musicality in my opinion. I would say that you should continue to enjoy the amazing musical experience it provides. :)
@@MerriamPianos Thank you Brent - its a treasure, for me - after having a spinit piano when young, and eventually a Steinway B - my concert grand was and is the ultimate Piano- I can not read music - but the tone in the bass is just wonderful, as well as the rest of the Piano. at 80, I dont know what will happen to the instrument, just want it to go to the right person who will enjoy it - Thanks for your comment ! PHIL
Same situation for me C. Bechstein EN. 1972. I also have a Steinway. You are right. My Bechstein blows away my 9 ' Steinway and the quality is out of this world. However, the 9' Steinway is still a fantastic instrument. Should I want to sell one of them, I could not get rid of my Bechstein but my Steinway would sell immediately.
I've never had the opportunity to play a Modern Bechstein you say concert series or a Fazioli. I guess Herbie and Angela Hewitt have kinda gone Fazioli.
C. Bechstein is one of the finest piano manufacturers in the world, but the company is not as commonly known as some other piano giants in the industry. However, that has gradually been starting to change.
Enjoyed this video very much, thank you. I was in the piano business in the 70’s and early 80’s and sold just about everything. From the $499.00 leader Kincaid, which was despised by everyone to Steinway, Sohmer, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, etc. But for the money, the Yamaha C3 was hard to beat and it didn’t cost a million dollars.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thank you for tuning in! That is awesome that you were in the biz as well. And the C3 still holds up as a very solid instrument with a very fervent fanbase. :)
Steinway always made certain that the finest concert artists were playing a Steinway. People have to understand that pianos are made in factories. Just how good is any individual worker? I would not be surprised if I learned many middle eastern immigrants are working in the Bechstein plants. Who knows where Steinway gets it's labor force? The bottom line is the basic geometry of the instrument is very important. I image every top line piano manufacturer has to maintain very strict quality control. Personally I'm completely satisfied with the sound of Pianoteq voices. I just sent a message today to Kawai asking them to consider manufacturing a digital action kit to install into old grand cases.
Most important fact shared at 12:00 : if you want to enjoy playing a best-in-the-world piano buy a Bechstein. If you want an investment buy gold or bitcoin.
That is certainly a fair analogy. With that said, from an emotional currency perspective, the memories and bond that you form with a piano of that level is often an investment that appraises over time as well.
The Bechstein Renaissance is something I do view a bit critical. Yes, their new instruments are very, very well made, yes they sound beautifully. But they do not sound like Bechsteins used to sound anymore. Not this is a problematic issue, I admit, I sound like Granpa Simpson shouting "My car makes forty rods to the hogshead" to rebuke the metric system. But I really think that the piano culture was at its best, when there were many manufacturers who had their own, brand specific sound idea. Steinways today are very similar to Steinways from 1910 and will probably sound more or less than new instruments did in 1910; todays Steinway sound is still pretty much THE Steinway sound. Bechstein, Blüthner, Bösendorfer (the three Bs from the German speaking piano world) and Steinway were the four big manufacturers of the pre-WWI and inter-war period. And if you listen to meticulously restored instruments of the period from each of these four manufacturers, you will be able to immediately say which piano is played at the moment. Everybody has his or her preference and there is nothing wrong with the preference of the Steinway sound. If I had to rate the four sound profiles from this era, I would rate them: Steinway, Bechstein, Blüthner, Bösendorfer, with Bösendorfer being the most beautiful and Steinway - though very beautiful - the worst. Bechsteins kept their sound profile until they redesigned all their instruments in the early 2000s. Until then they came with agrafs all the way up and no capo d'astra bar. Those are the only Bechsteins, I would be interested in. The new ones sound to much like a Steinway for my liking, so I would buy a Steinway instead. Steinway gained its huge market success mostly due them surviving WWII and Hamburg being able to restart production with help from NY in the 40s, while Bechstein and Blüthner were still bombed down and had lost everything. The new Bechsteins are beautiful instruments. I understand why people like them. But I think it is so sad that all piano manufacturers nowadays (except Bösendorfer maybe) try to emulate the Steinway sound and abandon their own, brand specific sound. As said in the video, now Bechsteins sound somewhere between a Steinway and a Fazioli. And NOT like any bechstein built between 1880 and 2000. If I buy a Bechstein or Blüthner, I do so because I want the specific Bechstein or Blüthner sound (which is the reason why I own a Blüthner X - 230 cm - from 1908).
Thanks for sharing your insights. Naturally, this is a highly subjective matter of course and every player will have their own thoughts and preferences. With that said, these are all incredibly crafted instruments with their own unique beauty and character. As you mentioned, some manufacturers have updated their designs which have led to some slight differences in sonic qualities. Thanks again for tuning in and writing in! :)
Hi! Brent here! While both of these company's manufacture incredible instruments, personally, I would have to agree with you! The C. Bechstein Concert grands in particular are immensely expressive and musical. :)
I'm sure that you don't consider them in the same category as these two, but the finest piano I ever played (and I used to work at an S&S dealer, during which time I bought a new Yamaha) was a nearly new and meticulously prepared Mason & Hamlin BB I played my senior recital on. Its sustain seemed to go on forever- I had to re-pedal some pieces, having practiced on a S&S B... and the tone and touch were to 'die for'
Mason & Hamlin make wonderful pianos and the model BB is a spectacular instrument! Thanks for writing in with your experiences and insights. We appreciate it! :)
Dear Stu, Could you please do an acoustic piano demonstration video of the new YAMAHA S6X or C6X grand piano as well ,since this is similar to Steinway B or C.Bechstein B models.? I would like your opinion, as your videos with Steinway and Bechstein and Bösendorfer are very good.
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for tuning in and for your suggestion! We are not a Yamaha dealer, so it may be difficult to tackle those reviews/comparisons. However, we do receive a lot of Yamaha pianos on trade-in. If we receive either of those models, you can certainly be that we will have video reviews/comparisons coming your way. :)
Hello, thank you for this very knowledgable review. Can I ask your opinon about their top range upright pianos: C.Bechstein Concert 6/8 vs. Steinway K132 ? Thank you.
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks so much for tuning in! We appreciate it. :) In terms of the Concert 6/8 versus the Steinway K132, these are all truly marvellous instruments that are amongst the best upright pianos in the world. For me, the C. Bechstein Concert models are the most expressive instruments on the planet. Their dynamic and tonal range is unparalleled in my opinion. With that said, this is a highly-subjective matter, which comes down to personal preference.
Hi! Brent here! I don't believe Stu is denigrating other brands based on the quantities of pianos they produce. The timeline to receive a piano may just be a consideration when shopping.
From a beginners perspective; I only play 2.5 years now but I have a very good ears and have played music all my life with other instruments. Lacking of room I had to go with an upright. There‘s lightyears between the Concert Bechstein Line to Steinways. Grand Pianos might be different but for uprights; C. Bechstein (concerts) and Steingräber & Söhne are simply the best.
The C. Bechstein uprights are absolutely out of this world! They are certainly very difficult to compete with when it comes to expressivity as well as tonal and dynamic potential. :)
Very interesting Stu, dissertation about those to giants of the piano world.I go frequently to concerts and recital, in Australia, where it is very common to hear a Steinway or Kawai and very seldom to see a Bechstein.
Hi! Brent here! Thanks for tuning in! We're glad you enjoyed this deep dive into two of the giants of the industry. With that said, Bechstein is more of a dominant force in the European market. However, they are becoming a more popular choice in North America as well as more and more piano aficionados discover the beauty and expressivity of Bechstein. :)
We're glad you enjoyed the video! We do have several videos that directly compare these two brands, such as the L167 versus Model M video on our channel. :)
Hi Allen! Thank you for taking the time to check out the video! We always try to present info as objectively as possible. With that said, the most important thing for any prospective piano customer to do is to get out to showrooms and experience these wonderful instruments for themselves. No two sets of ears are exactly alike. Beauty is in the ears of the beholder when it comes to musicians. The most important thing is to find an instrument that you connect with musically. :)
And then there's M&H, Sauter, Bluthner, Steingraeber, and so on... these shouldn't be overlooked. Also, I think Yamaha and Kawai definitely should be in the conversation of dominating their respective markets. Yamaha pretty much put all of piano building america out of business, that is what I call dominance.
Why don't we see more Bechstein pianos in concert halls? If you view concerts online, you see Steinway pianos almost always and Bechstein almost never.
This is an excellent question and possibly one that is worth dedicating a whole video to. Every company has a different approach or philosophy when it comes to marketing. Some companies give away a lot of free instruments to artists and venues to elevate the brand's prestige, while other companies refuse to offer free instruments to artists and venues. This dynamic certainly plays a role, but there are of course other factors as well. Thanks for the question!
Imo its because Steinway has aggressive marketing through there artist program. By providing the highest quality pianos for artist on tour. This also provides free marketing for Steinway. On a side note Bechstein is sold more than Steinways in Europe. They are Steinways direct competition in Europe and imo produce a better instrument than Steinway.
Hi there! While those they do kind of look like canvases, they are actually sound diffusers that are used to control the acoustics of the room. This video was shot in the piano/live room of our recording studio. :)
I considered a Bechstein when I was shopping until I found out that they supported Hitler in a big way. I wrote Bechstein and suggested that they renounce w hat the Bechstein’s did but the refused so I bought a glorious 1906 Hamburg Steinway A. Who needs that in their house? Nevertheless, Stu is great and honest, I especially like the way he said that pianos don’t go up in value whereas Steinway does.
@@ronp.6782 You're obviously an anti-semite and there's more to caring about just yourself in life. All I ever asked for them to denounce what the Bechstein's did but they won't do it because they're afraid of losing business because so many people are racists and it wasn't that long ago.
@@philbarone4603 Of course Bechstein won't denounce anything,why should they?Just because over 80 years ago some of them supported Hitler? It's past,it's history.Get over it and welcome to 2021!
@@ronp.6782 No, because the Bechstein's themselves held fundraisers for Hitler, Helene said she wished that Hitler was her son and because more than 6 million people were tortured and murdered including little children. Helene went to prison and they forfeited a large portion of their assets and let's not forget how pitiful their pianos became later on. Wake up Ron, the world is changing.
Very good reviews with very fine ears! One more aspect: You hear Steinway pianos in almost every concert hall. Why would you want to have the same sound at home instead of something equally satisfying but different? A Bechstein Concert 212 costs some 10.000 € less than a Hamburg Steinway at the same tonal and build quality. A Fazioli, Bösendorfer, Steingräber @ Söhne (probably difficult to get in your part of the world), Blüthner (watch how they build them, should you ever have the chance!) are all on the same technical and tonal level but different in style. On this level, as you mentioned, it´s purely a matter of taste. And then, would you really want to play Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms, Debussy on a japanese or korean instrument, however good they may be? Don´t get me wrong, I really like them.
I think Bach sounds great on Yamahas due to the precise articulation and medium-bodied tone, as opposed to the fatter tone you'd find on some of the German pianos and especially the American pianos. For Romantic, then the Germans shine but Kawai does well because they wash the sound and Kawais are on the dark side compared to some Europeans. So, Japanese pianos do fine playing European music as do American pianos like Mason and Hamlin and Charles Walter. I also find some Hailun pianos have a very good tone for playing the great European masters.
If I were a rich man and a skilled pianist I would have a top brand piano and a house with a room where the acoustics would be tailored to suit the instrument. But I am not that sort of rich man. However, having neither the money, nor the pianistic skills to exploit the musical nuances of a top of the range piano, I am more than satisfied with the combined talents of the keyboard of C Bechstein coupled to the electronics of Casio, in their hybrid Celviano GP300.
There’s now 2 different kind of C.Bechsteins with varying degrees of quality, this fact cleverly hidden by same name. 😌 At least with Steinway and Boston this confusion doesn’t exist. Resting my case.🧐
Hands down the best piano/ keyboard reviewer on the internet, bar none! Strikes just the right balance of technical details, musical impressions, and practical considerations like maintenance, serviceability, longevity, and applicability to real life situations (home use versus studio, etc.😃😃😃👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Couldn't agree more.
Agreed
While I agree that these videos are top notch, they really are piano demonstrations at best and not "reviews" per say, because that would imply they're impartial to some extent, which they are not. By definition, if you as a company sell a product, you can't post an impartial review about that product.
Does anyone have any information on *Mangeot et Freres, New York, Systeme Steinway* ? My father bought a 2nd hand one years ago, and it's still in the family.
Hi there! i don't have a ton of information on these pianos, but I have seen them pop up on the used market over the years. I believe these were New York made Steinways (partially at least) that were imported by the Mangeot family into France. From my understanding, the Mangeot brothers were responsible for building the cabinets as well as prepping, regulating, and intonating the instruments using Steinway actions and mechanics that were imported from New York. The target market for these instruments were wealthy upper-class citizens in France and Great Britain. To that point, most of the Mangeot-Steinway pianos I have come across have exceptionally ornate cabinets and very beautiful finishing work. The following post from Piano World has some helpful information:
forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3410955/mangeot-steinway.html
@@MerriamPianos Many thanks !
Bechstein the best!
By far,i thoroughly agree with you.
By far I thoughly agree with you
Agree
I have played on a Bechstein and can argue your comment, the Bechstein is incredible but it , in my opinion can not come close to the amazing signature of my 1914 Bluthner 190cm Aliquot grand piano, bar none. It is referred to as the golden tone and I can vouch for that, if any doubt than please come to my home and play my Darling Charlotte and prove me otherwise.
Is it just me, or Steinway is the Apple of pianos?
It is known by everybody
If you sign up with them, you cannot use the other brands,
it created an elitist culture around itself, in which people tend to talk down on other brands
It is all around the world as a must because "others use it"
It is good, but maybe not as uniquely magnificent and unrivaled as it is advertised...
(yes, I am not a fan of Steinways. Simply because I prefer the sound profile of Bösendorfers - or at least some german-style, deep bassed, clearer sounding brand)
I certainly understand the analogy and comparison you are making. Like Apple, Steinway has one of the most powerful brands in the industry. With that said, it is certainly not unmerited in the sense that they make fantastic instruments! However, there are so many incredible premium piano manufacturers out there that it would be silly to dismiss them if you are truly looking for an instrument that you resonate with emotionally. :)
All I have to say is WOW. What a fantastic review - well spoken, OBJECTIVE, facts based, historical. I am super impressed.
Thanks a million! We sincerely appreciate those incredibly kind words! :)
Awesome video, I love these little match ups of similarities and differences. Very well balanced and delivered comparison.
Not that I've played many... But the Steinway's I've played always seem a bit middle of the road, where as to me, the Bechstein's seem to really sing.
Then again, I'm not a concert pianist..
Not enough people give credit to what a good piano technician can get out of an instrument
Dear Stu,
I cannot say how much I enjoy your piano reviews since I began learning how to play piano! In my opinion you are offering the highest quality piano review videos out there! : )
Stu, as a suggestion, could you please make a video about what will change with MIDI 2.0 for piano players/live performers/composers?
Best Regards,
Björn
you are my go to piano review guy, thanks for the videos! one thing i would say is in the comparison videos it would really help to hear the same piece played on both instruments back to back, I know in a video youve said you werent great at doing so but would really help to grasp how the sound compares between two pianos. Thanks for the content man.
Thank you so much for this enjoyable and highly knowledgeable video, just answering some of my questions!!!
I won a brand new C.Bechstein in a competition - cost $0. Sold it for a massive profit. Never say never :). Great video btw: and yes the action on my C.Bechstein was amazingly well regulated. I have yet to measure any other instrument so perfectly handcrafted.
In what kind of competition can you win a Bechstein piano? 😄
@@ronp.6782i wanna know too
I´ve just read Aldo Ciccolini´s opinion (in 2011) about both brands, and he loathed "some Steinways" as "devices for relieving rheumatism. For me, the ideal piano today is a Bechstein".
I want to know what piano is in Stu's house.
Amazing pianos. For me, I would love a Mason and Hamlin someday :)
Yeah meeetooo brah the darker American bombast
My university had a baby grand in a practice room. It was unfortunate that it was in such a small room, because it had such a strong sound. I also recall the upper few octaves were remarkably clear
there are 2 aspects to a piano which are equally important. The first is purely technical, how the piano is made, what woods are used etc ... and the second is totally subjective, it is personal.
it is very difficult, if not impossible, to say that one piano is better than another. For me the best pianos in the world are Bechstein, Blüthner, Steinway, Bossendorf, Fazioli and the Yamaha CFX.
but trying to figure out which piano is number 1 number 2 number 3 etc ... makes no sense to me it's like asking which is the best sports car? Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, Aston Martin? they are all equally incredible and the difference will be made on a personal level. The same goes for a piano.
in my case I had 3 piano teachers between 9 and 18 years old. Two of these teachers had a Steinway. Most of the musicians I listened to and loved, in classical, like Robert Casadesus, Wilhem Kempf or Glen Gould, for example, played on a Steinway. The same in Jazz. Oscar Peterson, Erroll Garner, Keith Jarret, Bill Evans and many others played on a Steinway.
therefore Steinway has been, is and always will be the best piano for me regardless of the quality of the others yet excellent too.
because the sound of a Steinway is completely ingrained in my head and yes it is totally subjective.
And thank you for this nice and interesting video.
I'd add Shigeru Kawai to the mix of great pianos and there's Steingraeber and Mason and Hamlin as well. Peterson also played and enjoyed a Bosendorfer which got him in trouble with Steinway. And Gould played a Yamaha CF after his Steinway was dropped. Some great players, like Richter, enjoyed both Steinway and Yamaha's (Yamaha's CF's). Herbie Hancock seems to be favoring Faziolis now. Olga Kern went from Yamaha to Steinway. Emmanuel Ax sometimes likes to play the CFX vs. the Steinway D.
Benjamin Smith yes of course, you’re right. What I’m saying is just go and play them (no matter the brand) until you find the one which speaks to you.
@@leeloopatsy Absolutely, Richard. Some pianos are more special than others, even the same make and model. And sometimes a less expensive piano can just have a magic to it and sounds as good as a more expensive one.
I have never heard of Bossendorf pianos, are they any good?
Also the reason why all these famous Piano players use Steinway is because they have no option or they are bribed into it. Steinway has aggressive marketing and practices where concert halls are forced to purchase Steinways only. The same happens with music schools where students only get exposed to that brand and are never given any opportunity to try something different (except Yamaha once in a blue moon). Steinway is like Apple and Tesla, which are able to create a cult around them with subjective claims about quality which are not there. I am not saying Steinways are bad, on the contrary, they are excellent, but NOT the best. Far from that.
@@johndavolta3124 lol. Do you understand what you’re saying ? how do you think Steinway can force schools, operas and pianists to play only on Steinway pianos ??? What if they don’t ? They will burn their houses, rape their wives and daughters, beat the guys to death? You’re probably watching too much Netflix. And besides you’re probably not even a pianist if you’ve never heard about Bosendorfer.
I would pick a point with you, sir: The earlier Bechstein concert line (agraffes for every note, three hitch pins for all treble notes) had plenty of coloristic effects available. That wasn't the point. Schulze and Thomma wanted the instruments to be louder, at the expense of much else. They have achieved that. When I was looking for a Bechstein, I went looking for one with a serial number in the 170,000's. Found it. It's here in Toronto now. George Stimpson maintains that it's one of the five top pianos in the entire city.
The Bechsteins you play in your videos are wonderful. But my guess is that your approach to harmonic and style ( very similar to mine) matches, perhaps, the sound of some of the very best Steinway signature sound.
I have heard that not all Steinways are good in fact a lot of the newer Steinways are not built that well at all. I saw this on more than one RUclips channel which is unfortunate because I held them to the highest standard but after hearing several people say the same thing they are just not built like they used to. I would have definitely had to put the Yamaha CFX 9 foot Grant concert piano on this as it seems to be unbeatable in that category done tons and tons of research and every performer I have seen has been blown away about it. Bows and Dorf was bought out by Yamaha
Talking about pianos is like dancing about architecture.
Steinway seems a bit like a Gibson of the piano world. Classic, iconic sound and generally good quality but recently a bit inconsistent. You’re gonna want to play a few of them and take home the exact one you like. Whereas Bechstein is maybe more like a PRS, consistently great quality and tone but will always sound distinctly like a PRS.
Since pianos came first, its the other way around
I find myself using guitar references at well, since I'm new to pianos, but a 30 year guitarist. This comparison is spot on!
what is Fender?😂
Steinway ist der Heldentenor. Bechstein ist deine eigene innere Stimme.
I cannot claim any kind of expert knowledge when it comes to pianos, but I think I have not heard any piano sound nicer than the best from Boesendorfer
Sorry but at 10:17 you said "treble bell" which is a term I have never heard. Did you mean duplex scaling?
No, Stu is referring to the tone of the treble section. A "bell-like" tone is a sound that resembles that of a bell. A "bell-like" tone is usually described as a distinct, quick attack followed by a long decay time of the fundamental pitch. Thanks for the question and hope this helps! :)
For Steinways, I find the older ones are generally a lot better.
They have way more personnality
Older woods
Awesome video, amazing detail!
Excellent review! Most comprehensive that I’ve found, and includes so many relevant details. Thanks!
This is a bit like photographers comparing cameras and lenses WITHOUT showing any of the images themselves. How about a sound comparison? People don't buy pianos as living room furniture or to admire their technical specifications in silence.
Hi! This particular video is just an overview of the two brands. We have many videos on our channel that showcase Bechstein and Steinway pianos in action. Specs and company philosophy are no doubt interesting and important to some customers, but the sound and touch that a piano offers is always paramount. :)
@@MerriamPianos Thank you very much. I'll definitely check out those videos with sound samples.
which is better，Hoffmann T177 or K500？
These are very different pianos of course (the T177 being a grand versus the K500 being an upright). With that said, the T177 would be the superior piano in my opinion. Beyond the musical benefits that come along with a grand piano, the W. Hoffmann T series instruments belong to a higher quality tier than the Kawai K series uprights (which is reflected in the price of course).
I bought my brand new Yamaha 7' 4" in 1985 brought to my home still in the crate from Japan. I paid $10K for it. Now the same piano sells for over $100K. So I would say you are off on your money angle.
That is a very good investment! It is true that the used market inflates along with the new market to a certain extent, but the age/condition of the instrument factor into the equation of course.
Bechstein requires marketing material… Steinway speaks for itself.
There is certainly a difference when it comes to brand recognition (particularly in places outside of Europe). With that said, C. Bechstein pianos tend to speak for themselves as well once a player has a chance to sit down at one.
If you get a famous person to sign it or who has owned it, yes, it goes up in value!!
So you're saying that a 2002 well maintained B212 isn't the equal of a 5yr old B212 all things being equal?? Because this AM I have to choose between a rather new Steinway B and a well maintained 2002 B212 I presume (7foot) at an Arts Center..
Hi! Brent here! It is important to note that musical preferences are highly-subjective. At the end of the day, the "right" sound is the sound that you personally feel most inspired by. My suggestion would be to audition the instruments you are deciding between thoroughly to determine which you prefer. There are a number of factors that come into play when comparing a 2002 B212 and a 2019 B212. The condition of the instrument, how well it has been maintained, and how well it has been prepped (i.e. tuning, voicing, etc.) by a technician will all impact the musical experience it yields.
I always enjoy your reviews.. Keep up the great work! Please review the new Kawai ES920 & 520 next✨
I have a C.Bechestein Concert Grand, it blows away a Steinway I had before. Real Ivory Keys too - problem is - am 80 and what will happen to it some day ! I bought it in 1983 - holds its tune perfectly, tuned twice a year - Located in Central New Jersey.
Open to ideas ! Phil
Hi! Brent here! Congrats on your C. Bechstein concert grand! They are wonderful pianos with unparalleled expressivity and musicality in my opinion. I would say that you should continue to enjoy the amazing musical experience it provides. :)
@@MerriamPianos Thank you Brent - its a treasure, for me - after having a spinit piano when young, and eventually a Steinway B - my concert grand was and is the ultimate Piano- I can not read music - but the tone in the bass is just wonderful, as well as the rest of the Piano. at 80, I dont know what will happen to the instrument, just want it to go to the right person who will enjoy it - Thanks for your comment ! PHIL
@@phillewis8839you can will it to me. 😂😂😂 A Bechstein was always my favorite piano to practice on when I was a student at the SFCM. T
Same situation for me C. Bechstein EN. 1972. I also have a Steinway. You are right. My Bechstein blows away my 9 ' Steinway and the quality is out of this world. However, the 9' Steinway is still a fantastic instrument. Should I want to sell one of them, I could not get rid of my Bechstein but my Steinway would sell immediately.
I will gladly take it kind sir. What is your email? I can send you my information. Thanks again
Pianos don't get value over time. That's what we call a brutal truth.
Excellent video. Thanks for debunking the myth that a great piano is a good investment!
Thank you kindly! We're glad you enjoyed the video. :)
Brent, what about a comparation between academic Bechstein and W.Hoffman?
Thanks for the suggestion! I think a full Bechstein line overview/comparison would be quite exciting. Thanks for the idea! :)
@@MerriamPianos 🥳
I've never had the opportunity to play a Modern Bechstein you say concert series or a Fazioli. I guess Herbie and Angela Hewitt have kinda gone Fazioli.
I'm a lifelong pianist and have never heard of Bechstein 😀
C. Bechstein is one of the finest piano manufacturers in the world, but the company is not as commonly known as some other piano giants in the industry. However, that has gradually been starting to change.
Annnnd... a sound comparation between stainway d and a Bechstein 280?
We are not Steinway dealers, so that might be tricky. But, if we have a model D come in on trade, we will do our best. :)
@@MerriamPianos 😭
@@MerriamPianos poor our Stu, with his love for stainway pianos.
😅
Butt...whaddathay SOWND Lyke??!?? Da hole vid haz nooooo PNO myoozek..
Nawt eevin @ da ent!!! 😭
We have other videos that demonstrate both Bechstein and Steinway models. This particular video is intended to be an overview of the two brands.
Excellent analysis, thank you.
I have an old c, bechstein upright, and love this piano more since hearing u stu
That is amazing! Congrats on your Bechstein piano! They are wonderful instruments. :)
@@MerriamPianos thank you Merriam I'm in south Africa
Enjoyed this video very much, thank you. I was in the piano business in the 70’s and early 80’s and sold just about everything. From the $499.00 leader Kincaid, which was despised by everyone to Steinway, Sohmer, Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin, etc. But for the money, the Yamaha C3 was hard to beat and it didn’t cost a million dollars.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thank you for tuning in! That is awesome that you were in the biz as well. And the C3 still holds up as a very solid instrument with a very fervent fanbase. :)
Steinway always made certain that the finest concert artists were playing a Steinway. People have to understand that pianos are made in factories. Just how good is any individual worker? I would not be surprised if I learned many middle eastern immigrants are working in the Bechstein plants. Who knows where Steinway gets it's labor force? The bottom line is the basic geometry of the instrument is very important. I image every top line piano manufacturer has to maintain very strict quality control. Personally I'm completely satisfied with the sound of Pianoteq voices. I just sent a message today to Kawai asking them to consider manufacturing a digital action kit to install into old grand cases.
Most important fact shared at 12:00 : if you want to enjoy playing a best-in-the-world piano buy a Bechstein. If you want an investment buy gold or bitcoin.
That is certainly a fair analogy. With that said, from an emotional currency perspective, the memories and bond that you form with a piano of that level is often an investment that appraises over time as well.
@@MerriamPianos True and I’ll add that any currency that can’t be inflated away by the government is an excellent investment.
Thanks for the video
Great , well presented information.You would be the man to see when purchasing any pian brand new or used.
Thanks.
Beckstein.....WOW! Fazioli......WOW-WOW-WOW!
These are certainly some of the finest instruments in the world! :)
The Bechstein Renaissance is something I do view a bit critical. Yes, their new instruments are very, very well made, yes they sound beautifully. But they do not sound like Bechsteins used to sound anymore.
Not this is a problematic issue, I admit, I sound like Granpa Simpson shouting "My car makes forty rods to the hogshead" to rebuke the metric system. But I really think that the piano culture was at its best, when there were many manufacturers who had their own, brand specific sound idea.
Steinways today are very similar to Steinways from 1910 and will probably sound more or less than new instruments did in 1910; todays Steinway sound is still pretty much THE Steinway sound. Bechstein, Blüthner, Bösendorfer (the three Bs from the German speaking piano world) and Steinway were the four big manufacturers of the pre-WWI and inter-war period. And if you listen to meticulously restored instruments of the period from each of these four manufacturers, you will be able to immediately say which piano is played at the moment.
Everybody has his or her preference and there is nothing wrong with the preference of the Steinway sound. If I had to rate the four sound profiles from this era, I would rate them: Steinway, Bechstein, Blüthner, Bösendorfer, with Bösendorfer being the most beautiful and Steinway - though very beautiful - the worst.
Bechsteins kept their sound profile until they redesigned all their instruments in the early 2000s. Until then they came with agrafs all the way up and no capo d'astra bar. Those are the only Bechsteins, I would be interested in. The new ones sound to much like a Steinway for my liking, so I would buy a Steinway instead. Steinway gained its huge market success mostly due them surviving WWII and Hamburg being able to restart production with help from NY in the 40s, while Bechstein and Blüthner were still bombed down and had lost everything.
The new Bechsteins are beautiful instruments. I understand why people like them. But I think it is so sad that all piano manufacturers nowadays (except Bösendorfer maybe) try to emulate the Steinway sound and abandon their own, brand specific sound. As said in the video, now Bechsteins sound somewhere between a Steinway and a Fazioli. And NOT like any bechstein built between 1880 and 2000.
If I buy a Bechstein or Blüthner, I do so because I want the specific Bechstein or Blüthner sound (which is the reason why I own a Blüthner X - 230 cm - from 1908).
Thanks for sharing your insights. Naturally, this is a highly subjective matter of course and every player will have their own thoughts and preferences. With that said, these are all incredibly crafted instruments with their own unique beauty and character. As you mentioned, some manufacturers have updated their designs which have led to some slight differences in sonic qualities. Thanks again for tuning in and writing in! :)
ruclips.net/video/3FYKzITN6jA/видео.html Bechstein for me.
Hi! Brent here! While both of these company's manufacture incredible instruments, personally, I would have to agree with you! The C. Bechstein Concert grands in particular are immensely expressive and musical. :)
I'm sure that you don't consider them in the same category as these two, but the finest piano I ever played (and I used to work at an S&S dealer, during which time I bought a new Yamaha) was a nearly new and meticulously prepared Mason & Hamlin BB I played my senior recital on. Its sustain seemed to go on forever- I had to re-pedal some pieces, having practiced on a S&S B... and the tone and touch were to 'die for'
Mason & Hamlin make wonderful pianos and the model BB is a spectacular instrument! Thanks for writing in with your experiences and insights. We appreciate it! :)
Thats why i subscribed to this chennal than any other of the same reviewing category.👍
Dear Stu,
Could you please do an acoustic piano demonstration video of the new YAMAHA S6X or C6X grand piano as well ,since this is similar to Steinway B or C.Bechstein B models.? I would like your opinion, as your videos with Steinway and Bechstein and Bösendorfer are very good.
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks for tuning in and for your suggestion! We are not a Yamaha dealer, so it may be difficult to tackle those reviews/comparisons. However, we do receive a lot of Yamaha pianos on trade-in. If we receive either of those models, you can certainly be that we will have video reviews/comparisons coming your way. :)
Hello, thank you for this very knowledgable review. Can I ask your opinon about their top range upright pianos: C.Bechstein Concert 6/8 vs. Steinway K132 ? Thank you.
Hi! Brent from Merriam Music here! Thanks so much for tuning in! We appreciate it. :)
In terms of the Concert 6/8 versus the Steinway K132, these are all truly marvellous instruments that are amongst the best upright pianos in the world. For me, the C. Bechstein Concert models are the most expressive instruments on the planet. Their dynamic and tonal range is unparalleled in my opinion. With that said, this is a highly-subjective matter, which comes down to personal preference.
In one villa's hall Steinway into other villa's hall Bechstein....a good combination, thank you!
That would certainly be an amazingly complimentary pair of instruments! :)
Love the stein
Haha for sure! Both Steins are very nice indeed! :)
Why denigrate other brands based (Bosendorf and Fiazoli) based on lesser quantity?
Hi! Brent here! I don't believe Stu is denigrating other brands based on the quantities of pianos they produce. The timeline to receive a piano may just be a consideration when shopping.
Excellent review. Thank you so much for your effort.
From a beginners perspective; I only play 2.5 years now but I have a very good ears and have played music all my life with other instruments. Lacking of room I had to go with an upright. There‘s lightyears between the Concert Bechstein Line to Steinways. Grand Pianos might be different but for uprights; C. Bechstein (concerts) and Steingräber & Söhne are simply the best.
The C. Bechstein uprights are absolutely out of this world! They are certainly very difficult to compete with when it comes to expressivity as well as tonal and dynamic potential. :)
Very interesting Stu, dissertation about those to giants of the piano world.I go frequently to concerts and recital, in Australia, where it is very common to hear a Steinway or Kawai and very seldom to see a Bechstein.
Hi! Brent here! Thanks for tuning in! We're glad you enjoyed this deep dive into two of the giants of the industry. With that said, Bechstein is more of a dominant force in the European market. However, they are becoming a more popular choice in North America as well as more and more piano aficionados discover the beauty and expressivity of Bechstein. :)
Great video and knowledge. thank you
so no performance on this video? sad..
Thank you for not calling "color" to the tone! :)
Would love to see a Bechstein 192 vs Steinway A-188 battle.
That would be an epic battle to say the least! We will do our best to tackle it! ;)
Love this, but was so looking forward to hearing them both.
We're glad you enjoyed the video! We do have several videos that directly compare these two brands, such as the L167 versus Model M video on our channel. :)
Quite misleading in many places; he clearly has some agenda in mind.
Hi Allen! Thank you for taking the time to check out the video! We always try to present info as objectively as possible. With that said, the most important thing for any prospective piano customer to do is to get out to showrooms and experience these wonderful instruments for themselves. No two sets of ears are exactly alike. Beauty is in the ears of the beholder when it comes to musicians. The most important thing is to find an instrument that you connect with musically. :)
And then there's M&H, Sauter, Bluthner, Steingraeber, and so on... these shouldn't be overlooked. Also, I think Yamaha and Kawai definitely should be in the conversation of dominating their respective markets. Yamaha pretty much put all of piano building america out of business, that is what I call dominance.
Excellent
Very interesting, and very well-done!
Thanks so much! It is much appreciated. :)
Why don't we see more Bechstein pianos in concert halls? If you view concerts online, you see Steinway pianos almost always and Bechstein almost never.
This is an excellent question and possibly one that is worth dedicating a whole video to. Every company has a different approach or philosophy when it comes to marketing. Some companies give away a lot of free instruments to artists and venues to elevate the brand's prestige, while other companies refuse to offer free instruments to artists and venues. This dynamic certainly plays a role, but there are of course other factors as well. Thanks for the question!
Imo its because Steinway has aggressive marketing through there artist program. By providing the highest quality pianos for artist on tour. This also provides free marketing for Steinway.
On a side note Bechstein is sold more than Steinways in Europe. They are Steinways direct competition in Europe and imo produce a better instrument than Steinway.
Thank you. I think you're right!@@Hervinbalfour
🙏🏽💥🙏🏽
Wow, how knowledgeable
Thanks for tuning in! :)
it would be interesting to hear your opinion about pianos fazioli
Thank you kindly for your suggestion! We keep a list of suggestions for potential future videos, so Fazioli will definitely be added to the list. :)
@@MerriamPianos thank you
Steinway or Schimmel?😅😢
That is a fantastic suggestion for a future comparison video! Thank you kindly for the idea! :)
@@MerriamPianos Thank You!
¿Las tres obras de arte de color negro de la pared me podrías decir de quién son, porfavor ? Gracias
Hi there! While those they do kind of look like canvases, they are actually sound diffusers that are used to control the acoustics of the room. This video was shot in the piano/live room of our recording studio. :)
@@MerriamPianos muchas gracias por responder, también pensé en esa posibilidad.
Thanks.
You're very welcome! :)
I considered a Bechstein when I was shopping until I found out that they supported Hitler in a big way. I wrote Bechstein and suggested that they renounce w hat the Bechstein’s did but the refused so I bought a glorious 1906 Hamburg Steinway A. Who needs that in their house? Nevertheless, Stu is great and honest, I especially like the way he said that pianos don’t go up in value whereas Steinway does.
Even if Bechstein supported Hitler some 80 years ago,who cares?
@@ronp.6782 You're obviously an anti-semite and there's more to caring about just yourself in life. All I ever asked for them to denounce what the Bechstein's did but they won't do it because they're afraid of losing business because so many people are racists and it wasn't that long ago.
@@philbarone4603 Of course Bechstein won't denounce anything,why should they?Just because over 80 years ago some of them supported Hitler?
It's past,it's history.Get over it and welcome to 2021!
@@ronp.6782 No, because the Bechstein's themselves held fundraisers for Hitler, Helene said she wished that Hitler was her son and because more than 6 million people were tortured and murdered including little children. Helene went to prison and they forfeited a large portion of their assets and let's not forget how pitiful their pianos became later on. Wake up Ron, the world is changing.
@@philbarone4603 Whatever 😆
Very good reviews with very fine ears!
One more aspect: You hear Steinway pianos in almost every concert hall. Why would you want to have the same sound at home instead of something equally satisfying but different?
A Bechstein Concert 212 costs some 10.000 € less than a Hamburg Steinway at the same tonal and build quality. A Fazioli, Bösendorfer, Steingräber @ Söhne (probably difficult to get in your part of the world), Blüthner (watch how they build them, should you ever have the chance!) are all on the same technical and tonal level but different in style. On this level, as you mentioned, it´s purely a matter of taste. And then, would you really want to play Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, Brahms, Debussy on a japanese or korean instrument, however good they may be? Don´t get me wrong, I really like them.
I think Bach sounds great on Yamahas due to the precise articulation and medium-bodied tone, as opposed to the fatter tone you'd find on some of the German pianos and especially the American pianos. For Romantic, then the Germans shine but Kawai does well because they wash the sound and Kawais are on the dark side compared to some Europeans. So, Japanese pianos do fine playing European music as do American pianos like Mason and Hamlin and Charles Walter. I also find some Hailun pianos have a very good tone for playing the great European masters.
Shigeru Kawai's are in the same level of fine European brands.
If I were a rich man and a skilled pianist I would have a top brand piano and a house with a room where the acoustics would be tailored to suit the instrument. But I am not that sort of rich man. However, having neither the money, nor the pianistic skills to exploit the musical nuances of a top of the range piano, I am more than satisfied with the combined talents of the keyboard of C Bechstein coupled to the electronics of Casio, in their hybrid Celviano GP300.
There’s now 2 different kind of C.Bechsteins with varying degrees of quality, this fact cleverly hidden by same name. 😌 At least with Steinway and Boston this confusion doesn’t exist. Resting my case.🧐
There is such a thing as Hamburg Steinway vs New York Steinway.
Too much talk and I did not listen the differences...
You want him to test every single model both companies offer? This is a comparison of the two brands