Thanks for your very clear and accurate appraisal of the standard warm up that's basically a process of getting lips sufficiently swollen to shrink the cup volume. I can certainly attest to doing this for many years myself. Tce has helped me put an end to that
I really don’t think that those who play bigger brass; think trombone, euphonium, tuba; suffer from these sorts of issues as the swelling wouldn’t be an effective tool like it actually is for small cup instruments. I can attest to being a competent player with no embouchure to speak of and being taught that the lip does nothing but vibrate, et al. It’s just not sustainable. I’m pretty sure that mouthpiece pressure was my only real control mechanism, which would explain why I found it easy to slur up in pitch but couldn’t slur back down…
Thank you Rich. Very clear and insightful commentary on how a small cup volume mouthpiece may be essentially the same as a larger cup for those who have more lip intrusion….which explains why some folks can sound just great on a “shallow” mouthpiece. But if I am understanding you, I think you are advocating for working with a smaller cup volume with less lip intrusion (less air)…..as that leads to an embouchure that is naturally more efficient. Is that correct?
Hi, Yes this is what I would advise. I did wonder afterwards whether that was clear, or if it sounded like a casual observation. I don’t think there’s any merit to allowing the lips to fill the mouthpiece and would speculate that it’s become a very common (bad) habit as a result of big mouthpiece folklore and machismo rather than something that anyone would actually teach. I also think that if you can learn to focus the embouchure so that it works with a small mouthpiece then you’ll also be able to play on a big one but the reverse is rarely true.
Rich: Your blog is very interesting. I went to Staten Island and had a couple of lessons from Jerome many years ago. I play his Sima horn and have been using his SC3 for about 20 years. A few years ago he sent me his newer SC3S, which I really like, but have had trouble adapting to the shallower cup. What is your opinion of the SC3S and the 1SB, vs. the SC3?
I would just echo what Jerry himself once said to me - I can play all of them! I stuck to the SC3 for a long time and didn't seem any significant benefit to going to the SC1SS. I've never owned a 1SB so can't really comment.
The lip swelling thing is really interesting. I remember reading in one of Pops books 20+ years ago essentially the same thing: he said a lot of players rely on the swollen lips in order to be able to play, and so when they take a couple days off, their playing immediately goes into the toilet. That was definitely the experience I had as a trumpet player in high school. I never did get the embouchure thing figured out, and I ended up quitting trumpet. It's not all bad news though, because I've made quite a nice career as a professional pianist. It's interesting some of the parallels. In my life, I've studied piano, trumpet, voice, and golf. There's one thing they all seem to have in common: The people that are really good at them, they can wake up and just go. The best singers don't need a warm up. They would "like" to have one, but they don't actually need it. The best golfers can just strike the ball immediately, the best pianist can just play... I study a piano technique called the Taubman technique (of which there is a ton of content on RUclips). But one of the principles of that method is the idea that "correct" techniques stay in the body, and the body never forgets them. In contrast, poor techniques don't stay in the body, and they have to be continually forced into the body in order for them to work. So pianists that practice the same passage over and over for months and years while always struggling are living out that very principle. When I was playing trumpet (badly) I had to warm-up forever just to get through a gig. I realize now in hindsight that people that struggle in this way aren't actually warming up, they're retraining the whole mechanism each time they go to play! Before I fixed my golf swing, I used to have to hit a whole large bucket of balls just to have a chance at being able to play on a golf course. I was basically trying to learn a faulty swing, force it into the body, and then suffering the poor performance as a consequence. That's all just say that I think you are totally right with what you're saying here. At 39 years old, I've long since given up the idea that I'm going to have a career as a trumpet player, although I've always entertained the notion that I might pick up the horn again one day, get the embouchure figured out, and then get to enjoy being an amateur player with chops that I can rely on...
I want to give you a decent response to this - it’s a very interesting topic. Maybe in video form? Otherwise drop me an email and that’ll remind me to do it! I had some interesting conversations with Peter Estabrook on a similar vein. As he’s an Alexander Technique teacher he has a lot to say about the body/mind hanging on to physical sensations.
I would be interested to hear your opinion on mouthpiece size as relates to setting into the red tissue. I set a little into the red of my lower lip and a noted mouthpiece maker recommended that I might want to switch to a 1 1/4c diameter. I ignored the advice.
If it isn't causing you problems then I wouldn't worry about it. If it were in the red of the top lip then I would worry more. If you were my pupil then I think that the sorts of exercises I'd make you try would probably show you whether or not it's a problem but also show you that it wouldn't be a big deal to move the mouthpiece slightly for the sake of comfort or flexibility. A bigger mouthpiece wouldn't be the solution. Obviously our chops are our own and they are different, but for me I actually found that as I learned to play on smaller mouthpieces my placement became lower - better put, I need a higher placement for a bigger mouthpiece. That would contradict the advice you were given!
Thanks for your very clear and accurate appraisal of the standard warm up that's basically a process of getting lips sufficiently swollen to shrink the cup volume. I can certainly attest to doing this for many years myself. Tce has helped me put an end to that
I really don’t think that those who play bigger brass; think trombone, euphonium, tuba; suffer from these sorts of issues as the swelling wouldn’t be an effective tool like it actually is for small cup instruments. I can attest to being a competent player with no embouchure to speak of and being taught that the lip does nothing but vibrate, et al. It’s just not sustainable. I’m pretty sure that mouthpiece pressure was my only real control mechanism, which would explain why I found it easy to slur up in pitch but couldn’t slur back down…
Thank you Rich. Very clear and insightful commentary on how a small cup volume mouthpiece may be essentially the same as a larger cup for those who have more lip intrusion….which explains why some folks can sound just great on a “shallow” mouthpiece. But if I am understanding you, I think you are advocating for working with a smaller cup volume with less lip intrusion (less air)…..as that leads to an embouchure that is naturally more efficient. Is that correct?
Hi,
Yes this is what I would advise. I did wonder afterwards whether that was clear, or if it sounded like a casual observation. I don’t think there’s any merit to allowing the lips to fill the mouthpiece and would speculate that it’s become a very common (bad) habit as a result of big mouthpiece folklore and machismo rather than something that anyone would actually teach.
I also think that if you can learn to focus the embouchure so that it works with a small mouthpiece then you’ll also be able to play on a big one but the reverse is rarely true.
Rich: Your blog is very interesting. I went to Staten Island and had a couple of lessons from Jerome many years ago. I play his Sima horn and have been using his SC3 for about 20 years. A few years ago he sent me his newer SC3S, which I really like, but have had trouble adapting to the shallower cup. What is your opinion of the SC3S and the 1SB, vs. the SC3?
I would just echo what Jerry himself once said to me - I can play all of them! I stuck to the SC3 for a long time and didn't seem any significant benefit to going to the SC1SS. I've never owned a 1SB so can't really comment.
The lip swelling thing is really interesting. I remember reading in one of Pops books 20+ years ago essentially the same thing: he said a lot of players rely on the swollen lips in order to be able to play, and so when they take a couple days off, their playing immediately goes into the toilet. That was definitely the experience I had as a trumpet player in high school. I never did get the embouchure thing figured out, and I ended up quitting trumpet.
It's not all bad news though, because I've made quite a nice career as a professional pianist. It's interesting some of the parallels. In my life, I've studied piano, trumpet, voice, and golf. There's one thing they all seem to have in common: The people that are really good at them, they can wake up and just go. The best singers don't need a warm up. They would "like" to have one, but they don't actually need it. The best golfers can just strike the ball immediately, the best pianist can just play...
I study a piano technique called the Taubman technique (of which there is a ton of content on RUclips). But one of the principles of that method is the idea that "correct" techniques stay in the body, and the body never forgets them. In contrast, poor techniques don't stay in the body, and they have to be continually forced into the body in order for them to work. So pianists that practice the same passage over and over for months and years while always struggling are living out that very principle.
When I was playing trumpet (badly) I had to warm-up forever just to get through a gig. I realize now in hindsight that people that struggle in this way aren't actually warming up, they're retraining the whole mechanism each time they go to play!
Before I fixed my golf swing, I used to have to hit a whole large bucket of balls just to have a chance at being able to play on a golf course. I was basically trying to learn a faulty swing, force it into the body, and then suffering the poor performance as a consequence.
That's all just say that I think you are totally right with what you're saying here. At 39 years old, I've long since given up the idea that I'm going to have a career as a trumpet player, although I've always entertained the notion that I might pick up the horn again one day, get the embouchure figured out, and then get to enjoy being an amateur player with chops that I can rely on...
I want to give you a decent response to this - it’s a very interesting topic. Maybe in video form? Otherwise drop me an email and that’ll remind me to do it! I had some interesting conversations with Peter Estabrook on a similar vein. As he’s an Alexander Technique teacher he has a lot to say about the body/mind hanging on to physical sensations.
I would be interested to hear your opinion on mouthpiece size as relates to setting into the red tissue. I set a little into the red of my lower lip and a noted mouthpiece maker recommended that I might want to switch to a 1 1/4c diameter. I ignored the advice.
If it isn't causing you problems then I wouldn't worry about it. If it were in the red of the top lip then I would worry more. If you were my pupil then I think that the sorts of exercises I'd make you try would probably show you whether or not it's a problem but also show you that it wouldn't be a big deal to move the mouthpiece slightly for the sake of comfort or flexibility. A bigger mouthpiece wouldn't be the solution. Obviously our chops are our own and they are different, but for me I actually found that as I learned to play on smaller mouthpieces my placement became lower - better put, I need a higher placement for a bigger mouthpiece. That would contradict the advice you were given!
7 minutes in and I have learnt nothing. All he does is keep on about his experience. Waste of time
Mr.Wichtig verschwinde mit deinen unnützen Ratschläge