I purchased a c-frame from a popular aircraft tool store a couple of years ago anticipating that I would one day be building an RV. I have been watching your videos (a few times through) and finally purchased an RV 8 kit. I started on the horizontal stabilizers about a month ago, used the c-frame for three dimples, put it in the corner and purchased a DRDT2. Best money spent to date. Thank you for your reviews on that thing. (By the way - I have a really good deal on a c-frame dimpler if any one wants to try it out. I would even throw in the rubber mallet. :)
Fabulous, fabulous, fabulous, video. I am glad people are talking about this. And thank you Jason for putting together a comprehensive overview of what to think about and to look for.
any older builder will argue that pneumatic squeezers are a waste of money as well. We all know more Cframes have built homebuilts than DRD2s, but from what I have seen the DRD2 is well worth it, that's why DRD2s are in high demand and have a resale value like a 60s Vette... I have used both and for me the DRD2 is hands down more consistent and quieter and easier on the body and ears.. Jason Bravo to you and your vids and great comments...
Hello Jason, I'm from the interior of Brazil and your videos have made me very enthusiastic. Simply amazing your work. Congratulations on sharing your experience with us. Thanks !! Go ahead.
Sounds like the "We've always done it that way" crowd. The end result is putting pressure on the metal to dimple it. I guarantee you no one would be able to tell the difference between the work when completed.
Absolutely agree with Scott's assessment. I completed my entire airframe with a c-frame - with a DRDT sitting under my bench. IMO the c-frame makes for a much better rivet line. It is difficult to tell in your videos, but I just watched one of you riveting a leading edge and the light refraction indicates under dimpling - what I disliked about the DRDT. As Scott said, a small sample isn't a good indication. A larger sheet - such as your LE skin show the difference. Again hard to tell in your video, but sure looks like your barely striking the c-frame....
I saw big differences in how the DRDT2 worked with degree of frame distortion after adjustment. If you adjust for 1/8" or so movement, the dimples are perfect. At less than that, definitely not nearly as good a fit. Lesson learned: follow the directions and ensure that the compression is adequate (1/8" or slight ly more from distortion).
You should also start linking information in the bottom, your gears and tools and also proper name of material type and dimensions you use, along with where to buy them from, cause I wold really like to know that type of info, This build,is it a kit type build? What if you had to do repairs? Is there a store for a diy guy? Keep up the good work.
Jason, Is the throat of the DRDT2 adequate for the various dimpling needed on an RV-10 kit? I ask because I thought I heard you make a comment in one of your empennage videos about it being a little shallow for some of the spots?
Where did you get the plans for the dimpler that you built in the center? Thanks I would like to try to build one, but I can't find instruction for one that has worked in the past.
That one was one I borrowed from another person on the hangar. Sorry. You can get a CFrame dimpler from Cleaveland for about $250. Or if you're good at welding, do the work. Honestly, ... between you and me.. Get the DRDT2 =)
Your results are what I would have expected also. Time is the other consideration in addition to quality and cost. I would expect the lever actuated dimples to be faster. It appears you have to pick up the impact dimpler driver each time you move to a new hole. And if you should accidentally drop the hammer on your nearly finished skin ... that would more than offset the extra cost of the lever dimpler.
The fellow I borrowed the cframe from mentioned to be careful in that it's possible to poke a new hole in the skin with the cframe if the tool "bounces". Well, its just as easy to dimple a new hole into the skin with DRDT2 if you dont pay attention.. done it!
Jason Ellis, yes, good technique is always required. It just seems to me that having to hold a hammer while moving a large sheet around is a recipe for disaster. Maybe if you use a rubber mallet, but drop a ball peen hammer onto aluminum sheet and tell me what happens. 🙂
Did you use the same dimple dies to dimple both the skins and sub parts? I've heard some say that it leaves a small gap between the parts if using the same dies for both while others have said its fine. What are your thoughts? And great videos by the way!
I did use the same dimple dies. I have talked to many builders about this and they all agree than the difference between using the same dimple dies and the graduated dies which are slightly larger as you go deeper into the part is simply not worth the extra effort. More over that "gap" you're talking about is so tiny its hardly noticeable at all. The only reason I'd go that route is if I was building a competition show plane. I'm a long way away from doing that though =p
How much is the cost of rent on the hanger? Also do you think having a hanger helps with productivity or takes away from it? Was thinking it might go a little faster and be easier to start something in the garage or backyard just because you can get off work and start working eat dinner and everything at home. VS going to the airport spending 2-4 hours and leaving and not having time to come back or it just being to far out of the way. Thanks
I'd say stay at home and in your garage for as long as you possibly can. The extra 15 minutes it takes to drive to the airport and the inconvenience of not being able to just pop out to the garage does add a lot of time as well as remove some motivation. Hangars cost anywhere from $200 to $500 a month depending on location.
I love these and appreciate them I am looking at a Vans now for my third plane. The first was a zenith that I never finished because it just would not fit the mission. Second was a Cherokee 235b, and that was an awesome plane. I do have a question. I assumed this kit would be mostly counter sink drilling. Watching you work it appears that was incorrect and it is mostly about dimples. How much dimples vs countersinking did you do on this kit? Thanks!
Hrmm good question.. I'd say you do a LOT more dimpling than countersinking but there is a fair amount of that too.. its hard to judge because when a piece of skin has 600 dimples.. well that's a lot.. heh.. It's really about the thickness of the material. Thicker material == counter sink.
I seen a guy use a pneumatic drill, countersinking. What’s your take on counter sinking.. his had a sleeve that goes over kinda like a guide, and you can twist the guide and back it off for a deeper dimple, and the sleeve also has a lock.
I talk about this in other videos. You counter sink where it is called but not where else. You do not want to countersink all the holes because that will weaken the plane. If the skin is too thin then you're actually hurting things by countersinking versus dimpling.
Gonna reach out to everyone else here.. If anyone knows of a good place to get used tools please say so. I'd say Ebay maybe? Amazon? Harbor freight? I'm honestly not sure.
Check Vansairforce.com or Rivetbangers.com They have a classified section's where you can usually find used building tools. If you don't see what you want then you can place a WTB post (want to buy) and someone may say they have what you are looking for and private message you or email
I totally (sort of) disagree with your assessment. I do agree that it is the dimple shape (and quality) that controls the outcome, but the force that the two dies come together with is also an influence. If you were able to measure the compression force of the DRDT2 vs the momentary peak force that the impact dimpler produces, you would see a big diffence. I have been building RV's for nearly 30 years and have tried all of the different methods (Including the DRDT2). There is a difference between the dimple shape (I don't like to say quality because they are both totally acceptable and air worthy). I will agree that there is maybe a little more technique required to dimple consistently with an impact dimpler but most people learn very quickly that it is all about listening to the sound. You can tell when the impact hasn't fully formed the dimple, though you may not be able to tell while using the tool that you have because it is not representative of the tool that most RV builders use (looks home made). If you are really interested in doing a fair review assessment (and it seems that you are) I issue a challenge..... Completely dimple one of your flat wing skins (Use the bottom if you are concerned about the finish quality being less) using the impact dimping method, and then do another flat skin with the compression method. Then lay them side by side so that you can see the reflection of the overhead lights in the surface. If you do this I think you will change your opinion. As I said already, both produce totally acceptable results, but there is a detectable difference. People just have to decide whether that matters or not. For many people, the quiet compression dimpling is important because of there work environment/hours. If it is not, and you want the best formed dimples possible, the impact dimpling is they way to go. Scott
Hi Scott, The dimples on my test skin were identical between the compression and impact dimpler. Or as far as I can tell they were identical. In your opinion why would that make a difference over a larger piece of skin?
The difference is subtle enough that it take more area than a little test sample to see it. No point in debating here. You can either believe me or not. I think if you tried the test on a much larger skin you would see a difference.
I have seen much older demographic airframe mechanics using masking tape on the contact surfaces of their metal shaoing tools like dies and air hammer faces. They told me it adds the perfect amount of cushion that greatly reduces marring and tooling marks on the rivet heads and dimpled holes with out changing the effectiveness or safety of the tool performance. Not sure if that's a trade secret or they were liars though hahaha.
IT's what I do. But instead I put the tap on the rivet. Real "rivet tape" is expensive and offers zero protection. Blue painters/masking tape is cheap as dirt and works better in my opinion.
No, more due to the pressure between the two die's being too great and it actually flatten the metal (squishing it) more than it should be. As I understand it, that's an "over dimple".
Don't have a DRDT2, so is there any feature on the assembly that limits the stroke? If so, limiting the stroke, would would therefore limit the moment created by the lever arm to your workpiece. This would revert back to my comment about fit/gap. I'm an ME with experience in other fields/machinery. Just thinking it through, not critiquing. Also, I would think using a dead blow from a somewhat repeatable height on the c-frame would provide a fairly consistent dimple. With the added benefit of omitting the higher pitched clank. Just through observation, I would probably mount a pneumatic cylinder to the DRDT2 frame and add a foot pedal, but that is mostly due to laziness and two hands for the work piece.
So in another video the guy was using, a AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY COUNTERSINK TOOL, with a ATS stop countersink tool with its micro adjustable depth stop, that will give you the perfect countersink every time so you don’t damage airplane skins. Ever try one of those?
I purchased a c-frame from a popular aircraft tool store a couple of years ago anticipating that I would one day be building an RV. I have been watching your videos (a few times through) and finally purchased an RV 8 kit. I started on the horizontal stabilizers about a month ago, used the c-frame for three dimples, put it in the corner and purchased a DRDT2. Best money spent to date. Thank you for your reviews on that thing. (By the way - I have a really good deal on a c-frame dimpler if any one wants to try it out. I would even throw in the rubber mallet. :)
After 5 years of the construction, my RV-12 is now flying. Thanks to your video :) At last i am thinking of the RV-10 :)
Fabulous, fabulous, fabulous, video. I am glad people are talking about this. And thank you Jason for putting together a comprehensive overview of what to think about and to look for.
if you guys have other suggestions or things you'd like me to give a video about just ask.
any older builder will argue that pneumatic squeezers are a waste of money as well.
We all know more Cframes have built homebuilts than DRD2s, but from what I have seen the DRD2 is well worth it, that's why DRD2s are in high demand and have a resale value like a 60s Vette...
I have used both and for me the DRD2 is hands down more consistent and quieter and easier on the body and ears..
Jason Bravo to you and your vids and great comments...
Hello Jason, I'm from the interior of Brazil and your videos have made me very enthusiastic. Simply amazing your work. Congratulations on sharing your experience with us. Thanks !! Go ahead.
Sounds like the "We've always done it that way" crowd. The end result is putting pressure on the metal to dimple it. I guarantee you no one would be able to tell the difference between the work when completed.
Thinking of purchasing a RV 9A for a retirement hobby in a couple of years. Keep the video rolling, the heads up on some the issues helpful.
Bravo! A demo comparing dimpling tools and methods.
Absolutely agree with Scott's assessment. I completed my entire airframe with a c-frame - with a DRDT sitting under my bench. IMO the c-frame makes for a much better rivet line. It is difficult to tell in your videos, but I just watched one of you riveting a leading edge and the light refraction indicates under dimpling - what I disliked about the DRDT. As Scott said, a small sample isn't a good indication. A larger sheet - such as your LE skin show the difference. Again hard to tell in your video, but sure looks like your barely striking the c-frame....
I saw big differences in how the DRDT2 worked with degree of frame distortion after adjustment. If you adjust for 1/8" or so movement, the dimples are perfect. At less than that, definitely not nearly as good a fit. Lesson learned: follow the directions and ensure that the compression is adequate (1/8" or slight ly more from distortion).
Another great Video Jason.
You should also start linking information in the bottom, your gears and tools and also proper name of material type and dimensions you use, along with where to buy them from, cause I wold really like to know that type of info,
This build,is it a kit type build?
What if you had to do repairs? Is there a store for a diy guy?
Keep up the good work.
Jason, Is the throat of the DRDT2 adequate for the various dimpling needed on an RV-10 kit? I ask because I thought I heard you make a comment in one of your empennage videos about it being a little shallow for some of the spots?
Where did you get the plans for the dimpler that you built in the center? Thanks I would like to try to build one, but I can't find instruction for one that has worked in the past.
That one was one I borrowed from another person on the hangar. Sorry. You can get a CFrame dimpler from Cleaveland for about $250. Or if you're good at welding, do the work. Honestly, ... between you and me.. Get the DRDT2 =)
@@JasonEllisBuilds Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Your results are what I would have expected also. Time is the other consideration in addition to quality and cost. I would expect the lever actuated dimples to be faster. It appears you have to pick up the impact dimpler driver each time you move to a new hole. And if you should accidentally drop the hammer on your nearly finished skin ... that would more than offset the extra cost of the lever dimpler.
The fellow I borrowed the cframe from mentioned to be careful in that it's possible to poke a new hole in the skin with the cframe if the tool "bounces". Well, its just as easy to dimple a new hole into the skin with DRDT2 if you dont pay attention.. done it!
Jason Ellis, yes, good technique is always required. It just seems to me that having to hold a hammer while moving a large sheet around is a recipe for disaster. Maybe if you use a rubber mallet, but drop a ball peen hammer onto aluminum sheet and tell me what happens. 🙂
Did you use the same dimple dies to dimple both the skins and sub parts? I've heard some say that it leaves a small gap between the parts if using the same dies for both while others have said its fine. What are your thoughts? And great videos by the way!
I did use the same dimple dies. I have talked to many builders about this and they all agree than the difference between using the same dimple dies and the graduated dies which are slightly larger as you go deeper into the part is simply not worth the extra effort. More over that "gap" you're talking about is so tiny its hardly noticeable at all. The only reason I'd go that route is if I was building a competition show plane. I'm a long way away from doing that though =p
Mike, Thank you for asking that question.
@@JasonEllisBuilds Jason, Thank you for your reply.
How much is the cost of rent on the hanger? Also do you think having a hanger helps with productivity or takes away from it? Was thinking it might go a little faster and be easier to start something in the garage or backyard just because you can get off work and start working eat dinner and everything at home. VS going to the airport spending 2-4 hours and leaving and not having time to come back or it just being to far out of the way. Thanks
I'd say stay at home and in your garage for as long as you possibly can. The extra 15 minutes it takes to drive to the airport and the inconvenience of not being able to just pop out to the garage does add a lot of time as well as remove some motivation. Hangars cost anywhere from $200 to $500 a month depending on location.
I love these and appreciate them I am looking at a Vans now for my third plane. The first was a zenith that I never finished because it just would not fit the mission. Second was a Cherokee 235b, and that was an awesome plane.
I do have a question. I assumed this kit would be mostly counter sink drilling. Watching you work it appears that was incorrect and it is mostly about dimples. How much dimples vs countersinking did you do on this kit?
Thanks!
Hrmm good question.. I'd say you do a LOT more dimpling than countersinking but there is a fair amount of that too.. its hard to judge because when a piece of skin has 600 dimples.. well that's a lot.. heh.. It's really about the thickness of the material. Thicker material == counter sink.
OK. Makes sense Thanks Jason.
I seen a guy use a pneumatic drill, countersinking. What’s your take on counter sinking.. his had a sleeve that goes over kinda like a guide, and you can twist the guide and back it off for a deeper dimple, and the sleeve also has a lock.
I talk about this in other videos. You counter sink where it is called but not where else. You do not want to countersink all the holes because that will weaken the plane. If the skin is too thin then you're actually hurting things by countersinking versus dimpling.
Good video, thanks Jason. Do you know of anywhere to pick up used building tools?
Gonna reach out to everyone else here.. If anyone knows of a good place to get used tools please say so. I'd say Ebay maybe? Amazon? Harbor freight? I'm honestly not sure.
Check Vansairforce.com or Rivetbangers.com They have a classified section's where you can usually find used building tools. If you don't see what you want then you can place a WTB post (want to buy) and someone may say they have what you are looking for and private message you or email
Thank you both, I will check both vans and bangers.
I totally (sort of) disagree with your assessment.
I do agree that it is the dimple shape (and quality) that controls the outcome, but the force that the two dies come together with is also an influence. If you were able to measure the compression force of the DRDT2 vs the momentary peak force that the impact dimpler produces, you would see a big diffence.
I have been building RV's for nearly 30 years and have tried all of the different methods (Including the DRDT2). There is a difference between the dimple shape (I don't like to say quality because they are both totally acceptable and air worthy).
I will agree that there is maybe a little more technique required to dimple consistently with an impact dimpler but most people learn very quickly that it is all about listening to the sound. You can tell when the impact hasn't fully formed the dimple, though you may not be able to tell while using the tool that you have because it is not representative of the tool that most RV builders use (looks home made).
If you are really interested in doing a fair review assessment (and it seems that you are) I issue a challenge.....
Completely dimple one of your flat wing skins (Use the bottom if you are concerned about the finish quality being less) using the impact dimping method, and then do another flat skin with the compression method.
Then lay them side by side so that you can see the reflection of the overhead lights in the surface.
If you do this I think you will change your opinion.
As I said already, both produce totally acceptable results, but there is a detectable difference. People just have to decide whether that matters or not. For many people, the quiet compression dimpling is important because of there work environment/hours. If it is not, and you want the best formed dimples possible, the impact dimpling is they way to go.
Scott
Hi Scott, The dimples on my test skin were identical between the compression and impact dimpler. Or as far as I can tell they were identical. In your opinion why would that make a difference over a larger piece of skin?
The difference is subtle enough that it take more area than a little test sample to see it. No point in debating here. You can either believe me or not. I think if you tried the test on a much larger skin you would see a difference.
I totally agree Scot
I have seen much older demographic airframe mechanics using masking tape on the contact surfaces of their metal shaoing tools like dies and air hammer faces. They told me it adds the perfect amount of cushion that greatly reduces marring and tooling marks on the rivet heads and dimpled holes with out changing the effectiveness or safety of the tool performance. Not sure if that's a trade secret or they were liars though hahaha.
IT's what I do. But instead I put the tap on the rivet. Real "rivet tape" is expensive and offers zero protection. Blue painters/masking tape is cheap as dirt and works better in my opinion.
Pneumatic simpler isn't much good 12" inside the panel
Is it possible to over dimple?
Yes. If you REALLY crank it down, you can squish the aluminum enough to cause a pillowing that ripples outwards. But you really have to try.
Would that be due to an improper fit/gap between the die and anvil?
No, more due to the pressure between the two die's being too great and it actually flatten the metal (squishing it) more than it should be.
As I understand it, that's an "over dimple".
Don't have a DRDT2, so is there any feature on the assembly that limits the stroke? If so, limiting the stroke, would would therefore limit the moment created by the lever arm to your workpiece. This would revert back to my comment about fit/gap. I'm an ME with experience in other fields/machinery. Just thinking it through, not critiquing.
Also, I would think using a dead blow from a somewhat repeatable height on the c-frame would provide a fairly consistent dimple. With the added benefit of omitting the higher pitched clank.
Just through observation, I would probably mount a pneumatic cylinder to the DRDT2 frame and add a foot pedal, but that is mostly due to laziness and two hands for the work piece.
So in another video the guy was using, a AIRCRAFT TOOL SUPPLY COUNTERSINK TOOL, with a ATS stop countersink tool with its micro adjustable depth stop, that will give you the perfect countersink every time so you don’t damage airplane skins.
Ever try one of those?
I have not. I have been recommended to get one of those though. Honestly I counter sink using a different tool and it works fine.