The utterly insane DPS of the flamethrower turret is exactly why everything new in Space Age has extremely high fire resistance if it's not outright immune.
It makes total sense for lava worms to be immune to fire. As for Gleba and platforms, I think you’d have to import the fuel which makes them completely impractical, even if they were effective.
It's mostly that the larger pentapods have to step IN the fire, as I understand it. They don't have any fire resistance, so massed flame can still do good things there.
That's the thing about flamethrowers. Their DPS scales directly with target density in a way none of the other turrets do, because they don't target individual entities like everything else. They just turn entire tiles into damage.
And like every video on RUclips about flame turrets explains this and how it makes them good against really dense enemy groups. Almost like those comments were pretty justified.
If you want to know just how little the upkeep cost is, Michael Hendriks did a 100% maxxed out deathworld run. He defended his entire lategame base with a SINGLE pumpjack supplying oil for every flamethrower in the entire base
@ScorpiusZA. That series is what got me to buy factorio. I based most of my base around what he did in his playthrough and it is insanely good against a default map. Also I was able to delay pollution and evolution by enough that I was only getting pollution attacks around the time I finished purple and yellow science, and only seeing some medium biters.(This is my first playthrough so I don't know how special that is.)
@@INFJ-ThaneTrSame. One time I almost thought I had made a mistake, but that would've been a mistake since I don't make mistakes, and since I don't make mistakes, I caught myself before I could make that mistake.
Seeing you use bots, requester chests and an assembler to fill up a Flamethrower instead of just using a pipe is the equivalent to those overly complicated spring loaded cup holders in BMWs.
I love this way. You need lubricant on side of base? Just fill some barrels and request with bots! Turrets also didn't consume much fuel, and if base isn't too big, can be easy setup by bots without pipes annoying
I have a perimeter wall that uses lakes as choke points, so it's convenient to have an assembler requesting light oil barrels remotely at each wall segment. With a basic funnel, they've rendered my gun turrets basically obsolete while I'm working toward teslas.
You need so few oil, it's perfect, you do not need factory behind every flamethrower, you need just one...and while the base can be pretty big, parts can be separated by water, etc, it's pretty efficient to bring some barrels of oil instead of piping everything.
It's also important to mention that the refined flammables research scales flamethrower turret damage insanely fast compared to everything else. You get compounding bonuses every time you upgrade. This is because it applies the damage bonus twice, once for fire damage and once for flamethrower turrets, and it's multiplicative. I have mine do +1k damage at just level 10 refined flammables.
Gun turrets have the same geometric scaling, it's pretty goofy by the late game. The turret will kill pretty much anything on Nauvis in a split second (especially if you use uranium ammo), but will also die pretty quickly if any of the evolved spitters get into range of it.
Not to mention you can switch crude oil for light oil to boost damage even more. This is overkill for vanilla deathworld, but required for RAMPANT deathworld(if you playing without biter factions)
Before Space Age, MANY multi-player maps, like the train servers, had to severely NERF the flame turret, just so end game wasn't trivialize. That's how S tier it is in vanilla lol 🤣
The thing that made flamethrower turrets so good that they were downright overpowered pre-dlc, is upkeep cost/damage dealt ratio. The turret is (or, at least was, haven't checked 2.0 stats) so efficient with its consumption of fuel, that you could reasonably defend your entire base off of a single pumpjack at minimum yield. Combined with its pure aoe damage (whilst tending to miss the first biters) completely liquifying any size of wave. It's effectively free defence when know how to set it up.
Still about that good, but maybe not "all your oil needs are taken care of with one pump jack, flame turrets included" good. You get a line of pipe to any wall that needs coverage, put it behind some more traditional DPS turrets like gun or laser turrets, and you can be reasonably sure that the wall is going to last you a good long while: longer if you have coverage on repair in the area. No matter how massive and numerous the biters attack groups get, a handful of flamers and complimentary turrets will wipe the floor with them.
@@rrai1999its not efficient to just make a giant logistic network. They consume a lot of W and are slow. Better to just stablish a well thought out train network for your outposts
Saw a reddit post about someone having an entire line of flamers that could shred stompers. It required other turrets cuz smaller wigglers could dodge it but still. Flamers strongest ability is both cheap price which means less pollution but most important is that fire ignores numbers. A scouting party is just as dangerous as an endgame pollution attack. For better or worse.
Hey small heads up if you are using crude oil in your turrets you are doing it wrong!! It consumes more oil and it does less DPS. Use light oil! And use circuits to crack heavy to light whenever light is < than heavy and light to petrol whenever there is more light than petrol.
I'd argue that crude oil still wins. The turrets are still OP, and still don't use a lot, but the production chain is much simpler and can't deadlock due to too much petroleum gas. Petroleum gas also makes it way harder to have an independent supply for your turrets. In space age you can turn petroleum gas into solid fuel and burn it heating towers if you want, but that's so much more complicated than just eating the slightly lower DPS and maybe placing a few more turrets. With crude oil, you can have a few solar panels and a pumpjack as a reliable supply for your wall that will never break, even if you get a complete brownout.
@@thomaskolar90 it makes a massive difference when evolution factor is high, also petroleum is used in spades to make plastic and shit lmao you're more likely to run out of petroleum than you are to ever have too much of it. plus with both heavy and light supplies being converted to fuel for your turrets via oil cracking it will actually never be a problem. the only time you should use crude is at an oil outpost where it isn't worth converting, the main body of your factory should be supplied with light oil.
Yeah but why risk that 1% chance when it could be 0. Unupgraded flamers with basic oil are still more than enough for behemoth biter hordes, you just need a decent # and occasional wall repair. @@costlycoffee4234 Having to add a few extra flamers >>> an extra point of failure.
@@costlycoffee4234 Makes a good point, If you have too much petroleum you don't have enough production elsewhere. IMO its better to overbuild things that use petroleum because you can crack the other oil types into it.
@@costlycoffee4234 I know that usually, you're mostly using petroleum gas, but for base defense, I don't care about "usually", I care about the factory breaking (or just not running normally) not causing Unforeseen Consequences (tm). Like, maybe you're playing space age, and don't have an issue until you leave for a different planet. Now, your mall isn't doing anything, and you're also possibly no longer researching. Suddenly, your petroleum sinks are gone, and your LO buffers are empty because you buffered rocket fuel. Or you come back, and suddenly turn everything on again, use more power than usual, and get a brownout that stops light oil production. Both damage output and resilience are important, but I care about resilience more than boosting the damage of something that already does OP damage.
I respect you for admitting your mistake, and i call you for another try at land mines, (they where soo op in space age that they got nerfed in spaceships)
My take on defense gonna be S: flamer, tesla, landfill A: laser, mines, walls B: gun, rocket C: railgun, furnaces/pipes, etc. Artillery is offence, same as spidertrons for example. Bots and repair packs don't count because they are as mandatory as power poles or inserters for ammo. The trainsaw could be about B or C-tier I think, while fun, too cumbersome to setup and refuel.
@@Hlebuw3k Yeah, you can use them for defense of course. Probably solid A defense too. Slightly expensive, sure. It's not really different from a bunch of turrets tho, even if they are a little bit more vulnerable.
Flamethrower is very good but not better than Artillery because Artillery is good on any planet and just simply puts enemies out of question completely
@AbsoluteHuman Well, you need to defend you artillery outpost, which you should do with flamethrowers and also you have a possibility of using spidertrones instead of artillery (although it's not as good). And btw you need to somehow defend your base before unlocking artillery, sooooo
It also has an ammo draw that's close to a rounding error when considering the stage of the game you should be setting them up in. The drone powered setup is almost pointless IMO. I once had a spitter disconnect a line of flamethrowers for 30+ minutes without me knowing and the pipes themselves held enough oil to keep the turrets running right up until I saw the bug and fixed it.
I think that's a good reassessment, and your original reasoning was understandable. They lack the ease of use and versatility that other currents have, but when it comes to building of defense I can trust, I always make sure a few of these are defending my most important areas. I tend to stagger them along my exterior wall, with the laser turrets and artillery cannons. The artillery cannons simply prevent anything getting too close, and the laser turrets are reliable, in case something goes wrong with the oils supply but when a real crowd comes through I want to make sure I have slain turrets at the ready. The biggest concern tends to be that the fire can damage your own structures, so I also make sure to include some robo ports and repair kits in nearby chests that will be auto restocked. I think I tend to make my exterior wall 3 thick, and while it is certainly overkill, I appreciate ever having to worry about bug breaches.
Love to see someone taking criticism made both in good faith and not, reevaluating their positions with new information and correcting themselves publicly. Subbed.
The fact that it was put in C tier blew my mind. Ive seen the flame turrent hold off enemies on deathworld setting using the Rampant mod. It is literally the difference between life and death.
You can also use barrels, an assembler and logistic network to just fly barrels of oil to where you need, then pipe from the assembler. It doesn't take a huge pipeline and honestly by time you need flame turrets you'll already have logistic network researched
Honestly flame thrower turrets are probably second place in terms of ease of use with lasers beating it. But regular gun turrets require belts inserters and power to feed those inserters while flamethrowers just need oil
Well, they are in S Tier imo simply because you don't need anything more than a few of them every 10 or so tiles to defend the mid-endgame base against all biter attacks effortlessly
At nearly 1.000 evolution in my space age playthrough. I set up flamethrower walls at maximum pipe to ground distance with 2x thick regular quality walls. I put these down at the beginning of the game and have not had to fix a single breach since placing them down, hundreds of hours later
Flamethrower turrets are so broken I almost always play with a mod that makes them consume 5 times the fuel and do 1/5 the damage and they are still really good. Another massive advantage of flamethrower turrets is they consume almost no oil. Compared to gun turrets which absolutely guzzle ammunition or laser turrets which you pretty much need nuclear power for if you want to use them as a main defense I don’t notice any significant difference in my oil consumption when I build a bunch of flamethrower turrets.
If I remember right what killed the flame turret for me in my case study was the fact the logistic for it made it a no go. Now what I'm working on is a self expanding factory where the logistics for basic supplies already get complicated. Early on before 2.0 we tried to ship liquids with pips and then barrels only to have both systems fail on me. I then concluded liquids in general should not be transported away to other modules except in rare cases. Plus a move away from having one large bot network and towards individual modules have their own bot network I found worked best but that means I had to reply soly on trains for all logistics needs between modules. Then there were the landfill concerns which is another story. Long story short I ended up doing a pairing of landmines, laser turrets, and walls to protect the network
Devs not giving Behemoths flame resistance was a bad idea. If you have access to flamethrowers the defence is basically over and biters just becomes an annoyance. No need for fancy tech like spidertron, artillery or nukes wen flamethrowers already 'solved' the problem.
The easiest way to supply flamers (without blowing out your logistics que) is actually by rail. Set up a fluid unloading station and attach the tank to the station with a wire to the tank. Name the station "flamethrowers" (case sensitive) Set the station to enable/disable and set the condition to either oil or light oil
If you have an effective train setup, you can make fueling the turrets even easier by just making it go down a bunch of stops to fill up fuel tanks. Hell you could potentially even wire it so it only fills them when they are low only.
"Pipes" alternatively: just use bots to deliver barrels of oil from your oil processing, unbarrel them near the turret setup, and connect the turrets. Turrets use a surprisingly small amount of oil. Just make sure you have a little bit in reserve and you're all good. edit: 4:20, lol, nevermind
The main benefit of flame turrets is that they have quite a high damage output for relatively low ammo (oil) requirements (biters also have no damage resistance to fire damage). For most players, they are utterly unnecessary (still good if you set them up, just not needed) because its generally not that hard to keep up with the requirements of maintaining gun or laser turrets. for death worlds/high difficulty runs however, all your resources are under increased strain, so the damage/ammo really matters if you dont want to get outpaced by biter evolution
Just give them some walls and backup turrets in case the enemy gets too close and it's all good. Divert some light oil from your refinery (best damage of all the fluids that flamers can accept, and it's a couple layers down from raw oil so you can prod mod it if you need more), put some tanks every hundred or so sections, and you're not going to have problems defending anything.
The point is that the flamethrower turret deals damage to the area, thus frying several bugs at a time. Plus, it sets the ground on fire, which also deals damage to either the bug that's busy eating or the bugs that are following the original target. Plus, this turret doesn't require much fuel to operate. 100 units are enough for 33 seconds of continuous operation. Most importantly, the bugs can't adapt to being fried with napalm and therefore the damage will remain lethal forever.
I'd even say that in terms of setup it isn't even much harder than laser turrets. Sure, setting up a pipe is slightly more effort than just placing a bunch of power lines, but not by much. Especially now that you don't need to worry about length other than adding a pump every now and then. That being said, I'll concede that you usually need to run power either way to set up bots, so laser turrets can use the same line. I also think it's way easier to deal with pipes than using belts to deliver ammo items. I guess you can just deliver all the ammo using logistics bots, but that's a much bigger initial investment in roboports and requester chests, as well as a significant running cost in energy. Pipes are way cheaper to set up and replace once broken.
yeah the flamethrowres are crazy good and uses almost no fuel to run. whats funny is they are kind of worse now since you actually need to have pumps in your pipes for flamethrowers where before 2.0 you could just run pipes over massive distances and not worry about pressure at all since it uses nothing. in my first space age playthrough I left nauvis defended with literally nothing but a single thick wall with flame a throwers like 6 tiles back and robo nework coverage to repair/replace walls that got damaged. these walls held without change until after behemoths were starting to get added to attack groups. I was also going to make a comment about artillery not being so great anymore with how difficult it is to transport/move around the ammo. In space age I actually think a spidertron squad is a much much more effective way to clear the map. They also don't incur retaliation attacks so you can have fairly week walls without a problem.
The devs did a very great job and this is why it is hard to rank these things. On it's own the flame turret is not that good. E.g. you cannot just place it down in an area and hope it will last any amount of time like you do with gunturrets and laserturrets. If you couple them with a fortified frontline and make sure it cannot be flanked then it is the best thing. But only then. Btw you should compare it to a rocket turret filled with explosive rockets. I think that has a chance to achieve something similar. Although it is much more expensive to run, thats for sure.
now about artilery :D it sucks because they lure lots of biters, it's only helps to clear up the bases. but then entire colony is going for that turret. It's siege weapon non the less
Maybe I missed it, but they also do slow! and the firepuddle last longer the better quality of the turret. However, one downside is also how expensive and slow they are to make compared to the others. But yeah, best turret hands down
I use flameturret if there is oil nearby, yes u want to use walls and "spikes" to confuse bitters. When using artillery in endgame it nearly must have because of aoe. It lowers deaths of defenses. Since waves are huge
Did I just see a set up for flamethrower turrets that uses a ASSEMBLER UNBARRELING FUEL????!!!! Now that's cursed, flamethrowers are literally the easiest thing to set up?! Pipes are not difficult, and underground pipes span so far it's insane. Covering your base in flamethrowers is easier than MG's or any other turret type besides lasers (but the insane power draw and low damage put them off for me)
The flame turret is the only turret in factorio that increases damage with higher quality! It's amazing even in normal quality though. You can further increase the damage with light crude oil and tech upgrades. The setup with pipes is also not that big of a deal with underground pipes.
Placing laser turrets, solar panels, and accumulateurs are tied for the easiest setup of a system in the base game. Is there anything else less complicated than fueling flame turrets? Trains have signals. Belts are the same thing but more complicated. Placing a blueprint?
What level of projectile damage you were when testing gun turrets? Due to the flat part of resistance, unupgraded gun turrets are useless against, while upgraded one out-dps lasers even agains stringe biters
Were you able to test the flamer on Gleba as well? My setup has a double layer of turrets, no piping except the corners of the perimeter. It was my solution to the fact that I hadn’t gone to Fulgora and picked up Tesla turrets yet. I did go through the trouble of coal synthesis and coal liquefaction but the results are decent. Paired with rocket turrets and artillery, your Gleba base will be alerting you even less than your Nauvis base.
Lol your comparison with the gun turrets against big biters was unfair. They have more base armour than the the turrets damage so they were doing zero damage. By the time you get flamethrowers you should have a few levels in bullet damage. Try the test again with the bullet damage upgrade. It wont be quite as one sided this time. Flamers are still way better than them anyway though
Weak on Gleba due to fast enemies as your previous video argues may have some truth to it, but if you pair flamers with teslas they each go from s-tier to god-tier. The oil aspect is definitely annoying but since the turrets sip so little all you need is one refinery on coal liquefaction using only excess after explosives. If you have Vulcanus tech you can do simple liquefaction for one cycle even so no imports necessary at all.
if this was accidental, this is the best thing that could ever happen to you, do you actually know how much interactions did you get from placing flamethrowers C tier? ppl stumbling down to correct you in the coments, and now the correction? keep it up, lad, thats the right way 👍
Flame turret is about superior AOE . Enemies in normal game scales with numbers, and thus AOE flame turret owns everything. In hard modded game you may need to switch to lasers for their ability of multiple turrets targeting one overpowered behemoth. But flames biggest weaknest remains unmentioned - it damages and kills bots as they try to repair walls more then bitters.
I don't know if I'd rank them as S tier but definitely A tier. Your mentioned problems down fully outweigh their raw damage. Only usable on Nauvis, useless in space, needing fluid mechanics (which is the great factorio filter imo for noobs) and then omni-directional turrets, making them difficult to set up. Still they are amazing for crowd control and deal amazing DPS, for little ammo investment.
I think the problem of your tier list is inconsistency. If the list is based on how a player SHOULD place the turret on their defense line, sure Flamethrower Turret is S Tier. But when you rated Tesla Turret, you lowered its tier based on how a player WANT to place it. Well if the list is based on WANT instead of SHOULD, you are not wrong about Flamethrower Turret. But then Gun Turret should be S Tier, and, a bigger problem, the list became much more personal as everybody has their own preference. If you really want to make an accurate, objective Tier List, eliminate all personal preferences.
Considering that no small number of players look at chemical science and quit to "do it later", him saying that people don't bother setting up long-distance pipes is hardly unfair.
You must feel like Christopher Columbus. Discovering something millions of people knew before. Still many have the decency not to make a video about it.
1. it is basicaly required when you get to behimith biters 2. Nauvis is 1 of 2 planets where defence is a problem, and while they may suck on gleba, nauvis has the bigger threat over all, and definetly for the longest.
-insane dps -low throughput demands -oil is less in demand than iron for the entire game so dropping gun turrets can greatly reduce your iron and steel demands Imo flamers and teslas (or lasers if nauvis) are all youd ever need for a wall, its plenty of dps and doesnt require the nightmare that is ammo belts
The utterly insane DPS of the flamethrower turret is exactly why everything new in Space Age has extremely high fire resistance if it's not outright immune.
In case of gleba, stompers are the biggest threat and flamethrower struggle to hit them.
@Pandaxtor
Use Tesla turrets from Fulgora on Gleba. They'll slow the stompers down enough for flamers to melt them down.
It makes total sense for lava worms to be immune to fire. As for Gleba and platforms, I think you’d have to import the fuel which makes them completely impractical, even if they were effective.
It's mostly that the larger pentapods have to step IN the fire, as I understand it. They don't have any fire resistance, so massed flame can still do good things there.
That's the thing about flamethrowers. Their DPS scales directly with target density in a way none of the other turrets do, because they don't target individual entities like everything else. They just turn entire tiles into damage.
And like every video on RUclips about flame turrets explains this and how it makes them good against really dense enemy groups. Almost like those comments were pretty justified.
If you want to know just how little the upkeep cost is, Michael Hendriks did a 100% maxxed out deathworld run. He defended his entire lategame base with a SINGLE pumpjack supplying oil for every flamethrower in the entire base
That is insanely efficient. Especially in a deathworld, not needing to spend limited resources like copper and iron is massive.
Did he use a fluid tanks? and how many?
That video is where I got a whole new respect for the flame turret. I knew it was strong, but I never knew how efficient it was.
@ScorpiusZA. That series is what got me to buy factorio. I based most of my base around what he did in his playthrough and it is insanely good against a default map. Also I was able to delay pollution and evolution by enough that I was only getting pollution attacks around the time I finished purple and yellow science, and only seeing some medium biters.(This is my first playthrough so I don't know how special that is.)
This was before 2.0, so it was one continuous pipeline
i respect you for admitting your mistake, it is really hard to do
It’s not hard, but I respect it nonetheless
@@pedrodardengomesquita4852the hard part is getting over your own pride, which many tend to not really be able to
I don't make mistakes so i wouldn't know
@@INFJ-ThaneTrSame. One time I almost thought I had made a mistake, but that would've been a mistake since I don't make mistakes, and since I don't make mistakes, I caught myself before I could make that mistake.
this is better character development than some series have had over their entire runtime.
Seeing you use bots, requester chests and an assembler to fill up a Flamethrower instead of just using a pipe is the equivalent to those overly complicated spring loaded cup holders in BMWs.
I love this way. You need lubricant on side of base? Just fill some barrels and request with bots! Turrets also didn't consume much fuel, and if base isn't too big, can be easy setup by bots without pipes annoying
Or just using a single train running along/to wall sections. With proper scheduling a single train can support an infinite amount of flamethrowers.
I have a perimeter wall that uses lakes as choke points, so it's convenient to have an assembler requesting light oil barrels remotely at each wall segment. With a basic funnel, they've rendered my gun turrets basically obsolete while I'm working toward teslas.
You need so few oil, it's perfect, you do not need factory behind every flamethrower, you need just one...and while the base can be pretty big, parts can be separated by water, etc, it's pretty efficient to bring some barrels of oil instead of piping everything.
It's also important to mention that the refined flammables research scales flamethrower turret damage insanely fast compared to everything else. You get compounding bonuses every time you upgrade. This is because it applies the damage bonus twice, once for fire damage and once for flamethrower turrets, and it's multiplicative. I have mine do +1k damage at just level 10 refined flammables.
Gun turrets have the same geometric scaling, it's pretty goofy by the late game. The turret will kill pretty much anything on Nauvis in a split second (especially if you use uranium ammo), but will also die pretty quickly if any of the evolved spitters get into range of it.
@ That's why I always set the targeting priority to behemoth spitters then big spitters then everything else
Not to mention you can switch crude oil for light oil to boost damage even more. This is overkill for vanilla deathworld, but required for RAMPANT deathworld(if you playing without biter factions)
Before Space Age, MANY multi-player maps, like the train servers, had to severely NERF the flame turret, just so end game wasn't trivialize.
That's how S tier it is in vanilla lol 🤣
I love 3 things on RUclips:
- "i was wrong"
- factorio
- internals of how MERA 400 works
and You checked almost all of those boxes.
The thing that made flamethrower turrets so good that they were downright overpowered pre-dlc, is upkeep cost/damage dealt ratio.
The turret is (or, at least was, haven't checked 2.0 stats) so efficient with its consumption of fuel, that you could reasonably defend your entire base off of a single pumpjack at minimum yield.
Combined with its pure aoe damage (whilst tending to miss the first biters) completely liquifying any size of wave.
It's effectively free defence when know how to set it up.
Still about that good, but maybe not "all your oil needs are taken care of with one pump jack, flame turrets included" good. You get a line of pipe to any wall that needs coverage, put it behind some more traditional DPS turrets like gun or laser turrets, and you can be reasonably sure that the wall is going to last you a good long while: longer if you have coverage on repair in the area. No matter how massive and numerous the biters attack groups get, a handful of flamers and complimentary turrets will wipe the floor with them.
Love this correction. Flamethrowers are king on any deathworld.
You can bring oil to turrets by train. Same as turret ammo
And you need train access anyway to get repair packs to your outer walls.
@@FeepingCreature Huh? No ya don't, the logistic network with buffer chests does it just fine. Are you in some kind of rush?
@@rrai1999its not efficient to just make a giant logistic network. They consume a lot of W and are slow. Better to just stablish a well thought out train network for your outposts
And it allows u to add artillery later on when u want to expand. I am in love with artillery xd
nanocarbon alloy profile picture...
Saw a reddit post about someone having an entire line of flamers that could shred stompers. It required other turrets cuz smaller wigglers could dodge it but still.
Flamers strongest ability is both cheap price which means less pollution but most important is that fire ignores numbers. A scouting party is just as dangerous as an endgame pollution attack. For better or worse.
a youtuber who listens to and reviews criticism and then displays his findings civally, its not much but you earned another sub keep it up man
It takes virtue to admit one's mistakes and reevaluate your thought process. Thank you for that and returning the fallen king to his throne.
Hey small heads up if you are using crude oil in your turrets you are doing it wrong!! It consumes more oil and it does less DPS. Use light oil! And use circuits to crack heavy to light whenever light is < than heavy and light to petrol whenever there is more light than petrol.
I'd argue that crude oil still wins. The turrets are still OP, and still don't use a lot, but the production chain is much simpler and can't deadlock due to too much petroleum gas.
Petroleum gas also makes it way harder to have an independent supply for your turrets. In space age you can turn petroleum gas into solid fuel and burn it heating towers if you want, but that's so much more complicated than just eating the slightly lower DPS and maybe placing a few more turrets.
With crude oil, you can have a few solar panels and a pumpjack as a reliable supply for your wall that will never break, even if you get a complete brownout.
@@thomaskolar90 it makes a massive difference when evolution factor is high, also petroleum is used in spades to make plastic and shit lmao you're more likely to run out of petroleum than you are to ever have too much of it. plus with both heavy and light supplies being converted to fuel for your turrets via oil cracking it will actually never be a problem.
the only time you should use crude is at an oil outpost where it isn't worth converting, the main body of your factory should be supplied with light oil.
Yeah but why risk that 1% chance when it could be 0.
Unupgraded flamers with basic oil are still more than enough for behemoth biter hordes, you just need a decent # and occasional wall repair. @@costlycoffee4234
Having to add a few extra flamers >>> an extra point of failure.
@@costlycoffee4234 Makes a good point, If you have too much petroleum you don't have enough production elsewhere. IMO its better to overbuild things that use petroleum because you can crack the other oil types into it.
@@costlycoffee4234 I know that usually, you're mostly using petroleum gas, but for base defense, I don't care about "usually", I care about the factory breaking (or just not running normally) not causing Unforeseen Consequences (tm).
Like, maybe you're playing space age, and don't have an issue until you leave for a different planet. Now, your mall isn't doing anything, and you're also possibly no longer researching. Suddenly, your petroleum sinks are gone, and your LO buffers are empty because you buffered rocket fuel. Or you come back, and suddenly turn everything on again, use more power than usual, and get a brownout that stops light oil production.
Both damage output and resilience are important, but I care about resilience more than boosting the damage of something that already does OP damage.
I respect you for admitting your mistake,
and i call you for another try at land mines, (they where soo op in space age that they got nerfed in spaceships)
My take on defense gonna be
S: flamer, tesla, landfill
A: laser, mines, walls
B: gun, rocket
C: railgun, furnaces/pipes, etc.
Artillery is offence, same as spidertrons for example. Bots and repair packs don't count because they are as mandatory as power poles or inserters for ammo. The trainsaw could be about B or C-tier I think, while fun, too cumbersome to setup and refuel.
Spidertrons are offence? You haven't had a solid wall of spiders instead of regular turrets
@@Hlebuw3k Yeah, you can use them for defense of course. Probably solid A defense too. Slightly expensive, sure. It's not really different from a bunch of turrets tho, even if they are a little bit more vulnerable.
Flamethrower is very good but not better than Artillery because Artillery is good on any planet and just simply puts enemies out of question completely
Artillery is like condoms: It is prevention, before you have to care
You still have to defeat enemy attacks after shooting down bases though
Artillery isn't even a fair comparison to turrets as you don't have any alternatives to it. It's best defense because it's offence.
@AbsoluteHuman Well, you need to defend you artillery outpost, which you should do with flamethrowers and also you have a possibility of using spidertrones instead of artillery (although it's not as good). And btw you need to somehow defend your base before unlocking artillery, sooooo
he know nothing and he know he know nothing
It also has an ammo draw that's close to a rounding error when considering the stage of the game you should be setting them up in. The drone powered setup is almost pointless IMO. I once had a spitter disconnect a line of flamethrowers for 30+ minutes without me knowing and the pipes themselves held enough oil to keep the turrets running right up until I saw the bug and fixed it.
I think that's a good reassessment, and your original reasoning was understandable. They lack the ease of use and versatility that other currents have, but when it comes to building of defense I can trust, I always make sure a few of these are defending my most important areas. I tend to stagger them along my exterior wall, with the laser turrets and artillery cannons. The artillery cannons simply prevent anything getting too close, and the laser turrets are reliable, in case something goes wrong with the oils supply but when a real crowd comes through I want to make sure I have slain turrets at the ready.
The biggest concern tends to be that the fire can damage your own structures, so I also make sure to include some robo ports and repair kits in nearby chests that will be auto restocked. I think I tend to make my exterior wall 3 thick, and while it is certainly overkill, I appreciate ever having to worry about bug breaches.
Love to see someone taking criticism made both in good faith and not, reevaluating their positions with new information and correcting themselves publicly. Subbed.
The fact that it was put in C tier blew my mind. Ive seen the flame turrent hold off enemies on deathworld setting using the Rampant mod. It is literally the difference between life and death.
You can also use barrels, an assembler and logistic network to just fly barrels of oil to where you need, then pipe from the assembler.
It doesn't take a huge pipeline and honestly by time you need flame turrets you'll already have logistic network researched
Honestly flame thrower turrets are probably second place in terms of ease of use with lasers beating it. But regular gun turrets require belts inserters and power to feed those inserters while flamethrowers just need oil
Honestly, as long as I've played factorio, I couldn't even imagine good defence without flame turrets.
Well, they are in S Tier imo simply because you don't need anything more than a few of them every 10 or so tiles to defend the mid-endgame base against all biter attacks effortlessly
At nearly 1.000 evolution in my space age playthrough. I set up flamethrower walls at maximum pipe to ground distance with 2x thick regular quality walls. I put these down at the beginning of the game and have not had to fix a single breach since placing them down, hundreds of hours later
Flamethrower turrets are so broken I almost always play with a mod that makes them consume 5 times the fuel and do 1/5 the damage and they are still really good. Another massive advantage of flamethrower turrets is they consume almost no oil. Compared to gun turrets which absolutely guzzle ammunition or laser turrets which you pretty much need nuclear power for if you want to use them as a main defense I don’t notice any significant difference in my oil consumption when I build a bunch of flamethrower turrets.
If I remember right what killed the flame turret for me in my case study was the fact the logistic for it made it a no go. Now what I'm working on is a self expanding factory where the logistics for basic supplies already get complicated. Early on before 2.0 we tried to ship liquids with pips and then barrels only to have both systems fail on me. I then concluded liquids in general should not be transported away to other modules except in rare cases. Plus a move away from having one large bot network and towards individual modules have their own bot network I found worked best but that means I had to reply soly on trains for all logistics needs between modules. Then there were the landfill concerns which is another story. Long story short I ended up doing a pairing of landmines, laser turrets, and walls to protect the network
Thank you, I was so annoyed in the last video, I was honestly insulted, this is very good
Could we get a dragon’s teeth tier list next? I’m curious to see if overcomplicated teeth work better than simple teeth
Not to mention the damage bonus when you use light oil
Devs not giving Behemoths flame resistance was a bad idea. If you have access to flamethrowers the defence is basically over and biters just becomes an annoyance. No need for fancy tech like spidertron, artillery or nukes wen flamethrowers already 'solved' the problem.
The easiest way to supply flamers (without blowing out your logistics que) is actually by rail. Set up a fluid unloading station and attach the tank to the station with a wire to the tank. Name the station "flamethrowers" (case sensitive) Set the station to enable/disable and set the condition to either oil or light oil
You can use barrels for them, much easier
If you have an effective train setup, you can make fueling the turrets even easier by just making it go down a bunch of stops to fill up fuel tanks. Hell you could potentially even wire it so it only fills them when they are low only.
"Pipes"
alternatively: just use bots to deliver barrels of oil from your oil processing, unbarrel them near the turret setup, and connect the turrets. Turrets use a surprisingly small amount of oil. Just make sure you have a little bit in reserve and you're all good.
edit: 4:20, lol, nevermind
it works like a spike placer rather than a cannon or gun, it can kill an infinite number of bugs in the same block
The main benefit of flame turrets is that they have quite a high damage output for relatively low ammo (oil) requirements (biters also have no damage resistance to fire damage). For most players, they are utterly unnecessary (still good if you set them up, just not needed) because its generally not that hard to keep up with the requirements of maintaining gun or laser turrets. for death worlds/high difficulty runs however, all your resources are under increased strain, so the damage/ammo really matters if you dont want to get outpaced by biter evolution
Just give them some walls and backup turrets in case the enemy gets too close and it's all good. Divert some light oil from your refinery (best damage of all the fluids that flamers can accept, and it's a couple layers down from raw oil so you can prod mod it if you need more), put some tanks every hundred or so sections, and you're not going to have problems defending anything.
Our voices have been heard!
The point is that the flamethrower turret deals damage to the area, thus frying several bugs at a time. Plus, it sets the ground on fire, which also deals damage to either the bug that's busy eating or the bugs that are following the original target. Plus, this turret doesn't require much fuel to operate. 100 units are enough for 33 seconds of continuous operation.
Most importantly, the bugs can't adapt to being fried with napalm and therefore the damage will remain lethal forever.
I'd even say that in terms of setup it isn't even much harder than laser turrets. Sure, setting up a pipe is slightly more effort than just placing a bunch of power lines, but not by much. Especially now that you don't need to worry about length other than adding a pump every now and then. That being said, I'll concede that you usually need to run power either way to set up bots, so laser turrets can use the same line.
I also think it's way easier to deal with pipes than using belts to deliver ammo items. I guess you can just deliver all the ammo using logistics bots, but that's a much bigger initial investment in roboports and requester chests, as well as a significant running cost in energy. Pipes are way cheaper to set up and replace once broken.
yeah the flamethrowres are crazy good and uses almost no fuel to run. whats funny is they are kind of worse now since you actually need to have pumps in your pipes for flamethrowers where before 2.0 you could just run pipes over massive distances and not worry about pressure at all since it uses nothing.
in my first space age playthrough I left nauvis defended with literally nothing but a single thick wall with flame a throwers like 6 tiles back and robo nework coverage to repair/replace walls that got damaged. these walls held without change until after behemoths were starting to get added to attack groups.
I was also going to make a comment about artillery not being so great anymore with how difficult it is to transport/move around the ammo. In space age I actually think a spidertron squad is a much much more effective way to clear the map. They also don't incur retaliation attacks so you can have fairly week walls without a problem.
The devs did a very great job and this is why it is hard to rank these things. On it's own the flame turret is not that good. E.g. you cannot just place it down in an area and hope it will last any amount of time like you do with gunturrets and laserturrets. If you couple them with a fortified frontline and make sure it cannot be flanked then it is the best thing. But only then.
Btw you should compare it to a rocket turret filled with explosive rockets. I think that has a chance to achieve something similar. Although it is much more expensive to run, thats for sure.
Most deathworld runs are a sprint to get flamethrower turrets as fast as possible for a reason.
now about artilery :D it sucks because they lure lots of biters, it's only helps to clear up the bases. but then entire colony is going for that turret. It's siege weapon non the less
He kneels.
Maybe I missed it, but they also do slow! and the firepuddle last longer the better quality of the turret.
However, one downside is also how expensive and slow they are to make compared to the others.
But yeah, best turret hands down
I use flameturret if there is oil nearby, yes u want to use walls and "spikes" to confuse bitters. When using artillery in endgame it nearly must have because of aoe. It lowers deaths of defenses. Since waves are huge
Did I just see a set up for flamethrower turrets that uses a ASSEMBLER UNBARRELING FUEL????!!!! Now that's cursed, flamethrowers are literally the easiest thing to set up?! Pipes are not difficult, and underground pipes span so far it's insane. Covering your base in flamethrowers is easier than MG's or any other turret type besides lasers (but the insane power draw and low damage put them off for me)
teslas combine well with flames - stops enemies in their tracks, letting flames catch up.
The flame turret is the only turret in factorio that increases damage with higher quality! It's amazing even in normal quality though. You can further increase the damage with light crude oil and tech upgrades. The setup with pipes is also not that big of a deal with underground pipes.
honestly i slept on the flame turret too, until i started a warptorio playthrough recently
okay now you earned my sub.
Shipping bullets to turrets is much more work than attaching an oil pipe. Making pipes in the map view is very easy.
Placing laser turrets, solar panels, and accumulateurs are tied for the easiest setup of a system in the base game. Is there anything else less complicated than fueling flame turrets? Trains have signals. Belts are the same thing but more complicated. Placing a blueprint?
What level of projectile damage you were when testing gun turrets? Due to the flat part of resistance, unupgraded gun turrets are useless against, while upgraded one out-dps lasers even agains stringe biters
Were you able to test the flamer on Gleba as well? My setup has a double layer of turrets, no piping except the corners of the perimeter. It was my solution to the fact that I hadn’t gone to Fulgora and picked up Tesla turrets yet. I did go through the trouble of coal synthesis and coal liquefaction but the results are decent. Paired with rocket turrets and artillery, your Gleba base will be alerting you even less than your Nauvis base.
If you think that's powerful, you should see the propane turret (from a mod). Shorter range, but faster and able to hit directly in front of itself.
Lol your comparison with the gun turrets against big biters was unfair. They have more base armour than the the turrets damage so they were doing zero damage.
By the time you get flamethrowers you should have a few levels in bullet damage. Try the test again with the bullet damage upgrade. It wont be quite as one sided this time. Flamers are still way better than them anyway though
Weak on Gleba due to fast enemies as your previous video argues may have some truth to it, but if you pair flamers with teslas they each go from s-tier to god-tier.
The oil aspect is definitely annoying but since the turrets sip so little all you need is one refinery on coal liquefaction using only excess after explosives. If you have Vulcanus tech you can do simple liquefaction for one cycle even so no imports necessary at all.
if this was accidental, this is the best thing that could ever happen to you, do you actually know how much interactions did you get from placing flamethrowers C tier? ppl stumbling down to correct you in the coments, and now the correction?
keep it up, lad, thats the right way 👍
Flame turret is about superior AOE . Enemies in normal game scales with numbers, and thus AOE flame turret owns everything. In hard modded game you may need to switch to lasers for their ability of multiple turrets targeting one overpowered behemoth. But flames biggest weaknest remains unmentioned - it damages and kills bots as they try to repair walls more then bitters.
How do you put that in C tier to begin with?
i litteraly went straight for flame throwers the moment i got my hands on factorio
i don't think the piping is that hard, its quite simple honestly
The bugs have no defense against burn damage
artillery stil remains king of range
Flame turrets may be good, but still anyone whose built a semi large base knows it's just too much set up compared to lasers.
iirc the damage isnt even that good its the burning debuff dealing over 100 dps and slowing by 10%
I wouldnt call Artillery a turret, it's more of a utility, especially when you have them on trains
Must admit I was surprised to see it C Tier last time… if you’ve seen a Dosh vid, you’ll know its S Tier all the way 😂
I don't know if I'd rank them as S tier but definitely A tier. Your mentioned problems down fully outweigh their raw damage. Only usable on Nauvis, useless in space, needing fluid mechanics (which is the great factorio filter imo for noobs) and then omni-directional turrets, making them difficult to set up. Still they are amazing for crowd control and deal amazing DPS, for little ammo investment.
It's not just high damage. It's AoE. Stacking AoE!
IIIIII…. I CAAAST… I CAST FIREBAAALLL!
Thank you.
0:20 how sad that you didn't put my comment there
Are you South african?
for me I don't like them because they burn trees which slow biters and absorb pollution and it burns robots trying to repair the walls
I think the problem of your tier list is inconsistency. If the list is based on how a player SHOULD place the turret on their defense line, sure Flamethrower Turret is S Tier. But when you rated Tesla Turret, you lowered its tier based on how a player WANT to place it. Well if the list is based on WANT instead of SHOULD, you are not wrong about Flamethrower Turret. But then Gun Turret should be S Tier, and, a bigger problem, the list became much more personal as everybody has their own preference.
If you really want to make an accurate, objective Tier List, eliminate all personal preferences.
Yeah, flame turret is so overpowered, they literally had to release an entire DLC in order to nerf it somewhat.
S++ tier tbh
Feel like you intentionally trash talked the Flamethrower turret to boost engagement in the comments
you put flame-turrets in c tier??... you must be the new guy^^
Or trolling and uploading just anything to get views
Yea Flamers are S Tier ... on Nauvis.
0:52 You literally outed yourself bro
Considering that no small number of players look at chemical science and quit to "do it later", him saying that people don't bother setting up long-distance pipes is hardly unfair.
You must feel like Christopher Columbus.
Discovering something millions of people knew before.
Still many have the decency not to make a video about it.
So this gets S for situational: only useful on Nauvis deathworld.
You have zero hours in Factorio
@Hlebuw3k would have been the healthier life decision 🤣
1. it is basicaly required when you get to behimith biters
2. Nauvis is 1 of 2 planets where defence is a problem, and while they may suck on gleba, nauvis has the bigger threat over all, and definetly for the longest.
@@craigmccune6066 They don't suck on Gleba, they work about as well as rocket turrets. The best option on Gleba is tesla turrets.
-insane dps
-low throughput demands
-oil is less in demand than iron for the entire game so dropping gun turrets can greatly reduce your iron and steel demands
Imo flamers and teslas (or lasers if nauvis) are all youd ever need for a wall, its plenty of dps and doesnt require the nightmare that is ammo belts