The son of the hokage,disciple of a legendary sanin, member of the clan with the most chakra,child of prophecy, receptacle of the strongest piece of god is also the reincarnation of a demigod... Great kishimoto,truly effort beats talent
@mafiagrim I always found that line of thinking flawed because one can't really exist without the other. Without hard work, your talent will never improve, and without talent, your work would be wasted.
@@mafiagrimBut he was right about some people just being born better than others. It just ended up that Naruto was more special than the special people Neji was referring to since he could cheat destiny itself while having all the upsides.
I mean... not really. Even during that fight Naruto points out how hypocritical that worldview was. Neji's "Destiny" was all completely made up based on whatever he believed. For example, Neji believed that Rock Lee was destined to be beneath him... except 5th Gate Rock Lee would have completely destroyed Neji. He says during the fight that Naruto's "destiny" was to lose... except he won. None of it was grounded in any semblence of reality.
@jacksborns3414 That doesn’t mean much when Kakashi is a side character and was utilized well. Sakura is the official female lead, and is utilized poorly. She had more screen time than other side characters, but it was poorly done. Especially when you compare her writing to those who got even less screen time than her, like Shikamaru. To say she was to have as little Impact as Kiba is hilarious though.
You know what's weird. I don't mind the retcon for sasuke but for Naruto i hate it. Sasuke being destined to struggle with his dark side doesn't mean he will end up good or bad but Naruto being destined to be good undermines his struggle
Naruto was never destined to be good at all Naruto fans misunderstanding their show again are you forgetting the amount of times when Naruto was destined to bring the world to ashes from the sage toad
@@venomking3602 naruto was never destined to be good at all heck Naruto changed his fate at the end of the show like yall kids really are funny listening to someone who hates Naruto
@@Omen_SMK every step of the way no one ever thought Naruto would be anything else than good. If the views can surmise that from the first episode, he was destined to be so lol.
@@DygoKnightYup. If Kaguya had at least been explained before this arc as opposed to being exposition dumped during the arc, this could have worked. But this really was let’s heighten the stakes to such a massive level and reveal the Kaguya lore. Even though Madara exists and was hinted and shown during this arc to be a potent threat.
@@DygoKnightthe editor has nothing to do with it since kishismoto has to come up with everything kishismoto was just rushed to end the show and didn't help that his father passed away during the manga run and he missed his father funeral he was tired after working for 15 years
Remember when Sasuke was starting to open up to his team mates and accepting the possibility of living a normal life alongside his friends in Konoha and then Itachi shows up to remind him of his vengeance? Yeah, that has absolutely no weight anymore, Sasuke's whole characters falls apart, more than Naruto i'd argue, especially because as much as Naruto world view was questioned, he never doubted it, Sasuke on the other hand was in constant conflict for a pretty big part of the Classic sagas, espcially after the country of the waves arc and the moment Itachi came by, so what the reencarnaition retcom basically does is to undermine Sasuke's whole journey and eventual re decay and is saying that no matter what he would have went off to try and kill Naruto eventually. That is so frustrating it is even hard to put into words, especially because classic Naruto, as flawed as it is, is still the best iteration of the character and the franchise as a whole.
@@john_negs7720 You mean shippuden is better than classic? I mean, if that's your opinion, you have all the right to like it, it definetly has more flaws and plot holes than classic, but that doesn't really mean you can't like it.
What makes you think that he would have tried to kill Naruto eventually? The cycle can be broken as seen in shipudden. Of course this is going into the realms of fanfic but Naruto and Sasuke's relationship was healthy before the retrieval arc.
@@HaGa-zq5cn Literally the plot? The whole point to why the reencarnation retcom is bad is because it predetermines these characters fates. The cycle was broken after a direct confrontation between the main characters and sasuke recognizing he lost,. The anime literally states that they were bound to try and kill each other, which means that even if Itachi didn't do anything, something would have eventually happened, but it doesn't matter because the result is always the same, that's why it is such an awful concept in the first place.
@@RedCanidae Again, the cycle can be broken and maybe it could have been broken there. Nothing of what you said (besides, maybe the dramatic storytelling of shonen) proves that wrong.
Have you ever watched Inuyasha? They actually had a similar situation there, and dealt with it quite elegantly. The lead, Kagome, was a reincarnation of Kikyo. An oni named... I think Urusue, tries to bring Kikyo back as a puppet, but it fails because Kagome is there, despite Kagome technically having come into the feudal era through time travel. But the puppet semi comes to life when Kagome draws near, and sucks a portion of the soul back. This creates a revenant version of Kikyo, who exists as a somewhat-antagonist for much of the run. It's really cool.
Also worth of note is that Kikyo reborns specifically as an soul eater youkai, because she need to keep filling the other 90'ish percent of her soul that is still with Kagome (altough I dont remember with Kagome had any problems coming from losing a fragment of her soul). If it worked like this, it would be interesting. Sasuke needing to defeat Madara to "release" his full potential and Hashirama and Naruto having some kind of bond that let they use part of esch others jutsu.
Kikyo was there due to her wish to always be with inuyasha . Her punishment was to ash her reincarnation be with the man she loved since she was already dead soul. I kishimoto wrote himself into several corners elongating the story.
Naruto failing the ninja exam 3 times, him working hard to learn tree climbing, water walking and the freaking Rasengan; plus the stuff with Rock Lee, Might Guy & Sakura Haruno (the strongest normal ninjas), and the Neji situation kinda of implies that working hard was a theme. The real curse of Naruto was Hindsight!!! Because, everybody in Konoha should have known that Naruto was Minato the Hokage's son and therefore more people should have sympathized with him and not 99.99% of the village ostracizing him. I refuse to believe that Ichiraku, Ayame (maybe), and Iruka are the only people that saw Naruto not as a monster but an orphan boy who needed compassion and understanding!
A lot of this video's points are stupid. For the fact that being a reincarnation doesn't equate to "having the same life benefits". The reincarnation gives them a lot of the same traits and gives them a lot of potential. But that doesn't mean he's "automatically going to achieve those heights". He still has to work and make it through HIS situation. It's because life is different in different times. Even if they have the same souls, there are too many variables in their lives that play a role in how they are affected or grow. It might be different if they went thru the EXACT same things in their lives. In other words, just because I have a perfect copy of me and that copy is placed in the ice age or 1000 yrs in my future, that doesn't mean he'll achieve the same things that I have accomplished just because we are the same person.
@@blueisacolor7639he was destined to make it through all his challenges. Naruto was the child of prophecy all along. He was destined to bring all the tailed beast together and destined to end the cycle with his brother (Sasuke). It amazes me how much Naruto fans cope about the writing of this series
@giovalladares1022 what exactly does this have to do with what I said? Did I not specifically speak on the reincarnation? Regardless, let me entertain you, anyways... What did the prophecies say, exactly? Can you quote all things said from it that we know of or at the very least, what you know it said, precisely?
And the funny thing is, they could’ve just had hagormo show up like he did and give sasuke and Naruto powers and skipping the whole “oh btw you guys are a reincarnation of my sons”
@@Heishinigami why does it even matter at that point then? You just admitted you agree with them being the descendants of Hogoromo which is something that was stated since the beginning of the show. Why does them being the descendants reincarnation of his sons even matter now at that point? Like how does this even change the entirety of the show? lol
I saw the clip and was like yeah that’s cool. They remind her of her sons lol. It’s stupid but sweet. I didn’t realize they were actually, literally her sons. We don’t have to raise the stakes every 5 seconds to make something interesting, is my take away.
Why did Nagato never revive Yahiko with rinne rebirth? It seems implied that the only reason he died from casting it on the leaf village was he revived way too many people with way too little chakra after his fight with Naruto and burned himself out. So why did he never revive his best friend when he had full chakra reserves and his corpse on hand?
He wanted to end all the fighting in the world. The only way to do that is for people to know his pain and realize that the fightings must end in order for the pain to end. Bringing Yahiko back means that Nagato will no longer have that pain. He can't make people know that pain if he himself doesn't know it.
At least the way "reincarnation" works here is that their chakra that's the same, not their souls. They're still their own people with their own souls (hence why Hashirama and Madara can be revived via Edo Tensei and exist alongside Naruto and Sasuke despite being "reincarnations" of the same people). So they're still their own people with their own personalities, they just inherited their ancestor's chakra.
But that doesn't make it a good retcon, regardless, it essentially means, Naruto and Sasuke were always meant to turn out OK, if they inherit all these attributes from their chakra. The resounding, final Fuck You to anyone, who believed, "fate must be defied". Well, good job, because in Boruto, Naruto changed diddly-fucking squat, there is no peace, underaged shinobi still get used as child soldiers, and every promise Naruto ever made, was factually broken. Meaning, fate cannot be defied in the end, which is exactly, what the original series wanted us to spite and stand AGAINST, not FOR it.
that still would not fly though. If the Chakra are the only things that transfer and not the souls, then Madara and Hashirama should both not have god powers when they are resurrected again. Their Chakras has already been reincarnated into Sasuke and Naruto so Madara and Hashirama should both be very weak. For example if you were to pass on your Toyota Tundra to your son and he passes it all the way down to your great grandson, he has it now. Even if you wake up from Cryo sleep, you still don't have the truck, your great grandson has it. So you don't get to drive it or go off-roading with it unless your great grandson gives it back to you. Besides that, how does it travel and knows that both chakra are destined by fate to fight each other? Couldn't both chakra just disappeared and end the rivalry for forever? That's why it makes more sense that the souls are the reincarnated ones rather than chakra. Kishimoto fudged up the story, let's just go along with it. That's why i prefer shorter Manga series now like Demon Slayer that ends it before it becomes pointless.
I don't think their chakra is the same at all, Hagoromo describes it as Ashura clinging onto Naruto, seems to be more like avatar where there's a spirit on them and their chakra mix to some degree, but like in avatar they're 100% their own people.
@@djjin5768in Boruto there is a lack of shinobi because all of the peace means there isn’t a need for shinobi. Also, the economic situation of the village is at record highs. So, I don’t think the promise of Part 1 wasn’t fulfilled…
Remember the Naruto vs Neji fight? Naruto believing you can achieve greatness with effort, Neji believing you were either born to be great or not? And how Naruto proved that enough effort can overcome natural talent, changing Neji's view on his own fate? Yeah....good thing Neji died before having to find out Naruto was born into greatness all along....
Neji's arc was that he was a walking paradox. He claims that people can not escape their destiny, yet he puts people done for doing so. We see this with his fight with hinata where he puts her down for trying her best. He hated hinata for trying to train and become better. He hated her for trying to get closer to him despite being cousins. In his fight with Naruto, he claims that people are bound by their destiny, and yet he is the most talented from his clan. Naruto's rebutal is that neji holds himself back with that kind of thinking. Which is why Naruto won his fight against him. He met neji unwaveringly despite being outmatched and beat the odds. In other words he proved that Neji's claim was wrong. Further down the line in the war arc when neji dies for Naruto, that was him fulfilling his arc (even though it's a pretty sucky way to write an arc). He chose his own destiny in that moment.
@@malibu5230actually, Hinata's and Neji's talent (or lack of) is something that makes Neji's point even more clear. Neji is the best ninja in his generation, and yet he will forever be a second class citizen because of the seal in his forehead. Hinata is quite flankly a fucking mess, and yet she is the one that will became the head of the main family. Hanabi is just salt put into the injury, since she is also more talented than Hinata (to the point that their father is obviously considerating to break the rules and make her the next head) and yet again she will be forced to take the seal and became a member of a brench family unless some weird rule bendig happens.
@@chaos_knight_xy Neji said: We do not decide our destiny. Neji deliberately jumped to the rescue. he DID decide..............................................
I remember when people made fun of Ichigo for the entire "yeah he's a shinigami, but also a vaizard and half quincy" well fk me sideways he wasn't the reincarnation of an alien chakra jesus. I really hate the direction Naruto took after the Akatsuki arc, horribleh.
I'd also argue that Ichigo's situation was handled a bit better. Yes, it's very convenient that he has all the races of the series, but his Shinigami and Hollow inner conflict is quite compelling and a big aspect of his character. The Quincy part was definitely a bit forced, but I personally think the "Everything But The Rain" and "The Blade is Me" chapters compensate for that. I'm not saying is perfect by any means, but I think Kubo handled it quite well and some of Ichigo's best character moments stem from having those races. I can't say the same for Naruto and Sasuke.
The problem is the sense of Kishimoto slathering significance upon Naruto's character for all of Shippuden. Starting from making him "the child of prophecy" destined to save the world, to discovering he's actually the son of the martyred uber-talented Hokage that was kept secret from him for no reason, all the way to being the legitimate reincarnation of a god-like being. None of this made his character more interesting or compelling compared to who he was in part-one of Naruto, rather it chipped away at the identity he built for himself thus far by overshadowing it with mythic grandeur.
The only reason Kishimoto pulled this from his rear, was because he needed to simplify the Naruto Sasuke conflict so it would be resolved quickly. So by having them as reincarnations he can ignore everything else that happened between them and make their final fight just about the brotherly curse feud, this ignores their different ideologies Sasuke past crimes against the leaf and Naruto and just put the whole blame on mystical thing like reincarnation without even fully explaining it.
That's exactly why I don't like it very much we are giving this Excuse for way sasuke in the end is doing this instead of looking back after sasuke says last good bye to Itachi.
All that sage had to say was Sasuke and Naruto remind him of his sons and there connected by bloodlines just like Madara and Hashi. Sage would say he does not want Kaguya revived and Sasuke and Naruto seem to be the best option at the moment to grant a power boost. There the best by there previous hard work.
I like the idea of Ashura and Indra in a sense that their struggle thematically aligns with the overarching theme of shippuden. The problem for me arises when naruto and sasuke get power ups from it. With the addition of Kaguya thrown in there, it just kinda sucks all the conflict out of what could have been a good climax. Its like literally throwing a wrench into a story for no reason. Its what happens when you write your main antagonist to be too powerful and you dont have a way for your main characters to overcome it naturally. I would have been more satisied if Madara got talk no jutsued into ending the war with the power of friendship or some shit.
It would’ve been just as simple to make Naruto and Sasuke descendants of Ashura and Indra, that would’ve been less convoluted. Like imagine a twist where one of Naruto’s great grandparents was a senju who married an uzumaki, that would’ve been cool. But no we had to pull off this reincarnation garbage because Kishimoto was creatively bankrupt at this point.
SwagKage explains this best. Regardless of naruto being an incarnate of Ashura it really does not matter nor undermine naruto as a character or an underdog. He still accomplished what none of his other incarnations could mind you Hashirama was one of them and he was not only an incarnate of Ashura but he was talented in ability, Intelligent enough to set up the village system, Tamed all tail beast with strength alone, Was the strongest shinobi of his time effortlessly with only madara rivaling him. Yet he still failed while naruto did not while naruto had not a lick of what Hashirama had. If that isn't an underdog story idk what is.
saying that naruto accomplished what non of his other incarnations could doesn't work because he is literally the child of prophecy the toad told hagaromo about. so he was destined to be the most important incarnation.
Dude, this point right here, is where the plot's overall good will completely shat in on itself. It just feels so cheap, it cheapens the impact of everything we have seen Naruto and Sasuke go through, up until this point. It basically implies, "oh, they always had their chakra, so they were always meant to turn out OK", it just contradicts the overarching core theme of rebellion against your own fate. So many characters that Naruto fought over the years, were cursed with fates, that they believed, was something, they HAD to commit to, because, they had no hope of changing it. But now it's like, oh, they have the same chakra as two demigods from thousands of years ago? Then, what was the point of everything we have witnessed thus far? Was it all fate, too? Honestly, the moment someone like Neji, whom Naruto promised to, that he will be doing everything in his power to change the fate of the Hyuga clan, passed away, it felt like an insane cop-out to me. Screw everything, Naruto is a god, now. Now shut up, and stop asking me for shit.
A huge misunderstanding about the concept of reincarnation is that it must happen linearly. Souls are Hyperdimension objects that transcend spacetime and can therefore be in multiple places at once. A Good analogy is a computer software, it may be duplicated and modified but is still technically a reincarnation of the original. This being said Dygo's perspective is correct because the reincarnation retcon is inconsistent with how souls are established to work in the Naruto universe. The retcon is also very unnecessary and compromises several established themes in the story and breaks Naruto's character.
This video basically sums up my thoughts on the topic as well; I'm totally fine with Naruto and Sasuke being parallels of Hashirama and Madara I think that elevates the story, I'm even ok with that conflict having been a generational thing since the very beginning with Indra and Ashura, it establishes the idea of the cycle of hatred and that it will end with Naruto and Sasuke. But the moment you bring reincarnation into the story, it feels like these characters were always supposed to fight each other, there would never be a scenario where they don't fight, which I feel takes away the values and individual beliefs of the characters, they aren't at odds because their world view is different, they're at odds because they were born to be complete opposites. Like, Ashura and Indra, the sons of the Sage of 6 Paths being the progenitors of the Senju and the Uchiha clans is great for world building and Naruto and Sasuke being their descendants can explain why they get so powerful, they didn't need to be reincarnated. Sorry for the long comment, but in short, yeah I totally agree with this, and could go on, but don't want this getting way too long lol.
Yeah for worldbuilding its definitely a deepening of lore which I love. However the fact that they get super powered up RIGHT when we learn that they are reincarnations feels flat just like you said. From a writers standpoint, it might have been better to lean more into what it means for the narrative. Naruto and Sasuke both aiming to answer the question of "how to end the cycle of hatred?" is such an interesting premise. Losing steam just because of the introduction of Kaguya, Ashura and Indra is so sad imo.
I think this is the final endpoint of something that happened towards the tail end of Naruto, you started to see characters described as being Naruto-like or Sasuke-like. Look at Fu in the anime, she's basically meant to be a female Naruto and everyone remarks on how much like Naruto she was. It eventually becomes this pattern that shows up again and again throughout the history of the ninja world, a pair where one is hopeful and optismistic and the other is cynical and jaded repeating again and again. This is fine as a theme for a story IF it's explicitly set up or foreshadowed in the story, but because it just kind of comes out of nowhere, it ultimately feels more like Kishimoto only writes two character archetypes and either can't or isn't interested in writing anything else than those two. It really is startling looking back at the series just how much it fumbles foreshadowing and setting things up, the only events set up that really pay off at all is the fight between Naruto and Sasuke while almost everything else is abandoned by the end of the series. And, by all accounts, Boruto is even worse.
18:12 "it's much more interesting if that works as an echo of history; an echo, not a copy." pretty much perfect summary of how i feel regarding the situation. sometimes im happy i tend to misunderstand some things in stories i consume, bc that was actually how i interpreted hag telling the boys what they represented; i saw it as a parallel, not a reincarnation (i mean obviously im wrong here, but it definitely made my experience with the rest of naruto less painful as a result), and honestly if this reasoning was actually canon (instead of the reincarnation concept kishimoto goes with) it would have gone hard imo
If it’s up to me, I’d at least handle it like this: they’re not reincarnates. And Hashirama and Madara are direct descendants instead. That would explain how they’re so powerful and talented at an early age and since all their descendants are dead, except Tsunade, doesn’t cause future problems. Madara was the only Uchiha, aside from Sasuke, who could awaken the Rinnegan because he got chakra from Ashura’s direct descendant. Hagaromo gave Naruto Ashura’s chakra and Sasuke Indra’s chakra after Hashirama also gave Sasuke some of Ashura’s chakra. No wonder Sasuke only got one Rinnegan because he didn’t awaken it himself and he’s not a direct descendant of Indra. It also didn’t make sense with the theme of genius older brother and dunce younger brother because Hashirama was a genius and stronger than Madara from the beginning. Kishimoto making Naruto a reincarate of one of the most powerful being who ever existed was just stupid. Even though he’s the son of Minato and Kushina, at least he didn’t outright inherit their talents and so he still had to earn every buff he got. Just stupid imo.
I think the part about madara not being indras reincarnation anymore is more about him becoming more than that. It's not that he doesn't possess that Chakra but rather his obtained Chakra closer to his own and his mother
I am not sure, but I think the reincarnation retcon was introduced to retcon the earlier retcon that the Rinnegan was the second stage of the Sharingan. This change ensures that not all Uchiha can develop the Rinnegan, only one Uchiha can. Also, not all Senju cells work for this, only those of one specific person do.
I hate the reincarnation retcon sooo much! One of my favorite aspects of the Kage summit, was when Naruto admits he hated the village and his and Sasuke's roles could've been reversed
@Saprana lmfao copium? I'm just stating facts. This "retcon" has been worked on ever since the first valley of the end fight. The story of Indra and Ashura was introduced roughly 300 chapters before Hagoromo. The whole point of it was to flesh out the rivalry of Naruto and Sasuke and the core theme of overcoming your destiny. Most idiots don't even think about the significance of it in the story and just think of it as a whatever no jutsu random slop in the story.
I think there are some problems with the conclusions reached in the video. This comment is a bit long but I tried to separate the points in short paragraphs to make it easier to read. The first part is about them having the same chakra, that's not the case, as Hagoromo himself describes, he can see Ashura's chakra *clinging* onto Naruto, this implies that Ashura's chakra is not Naruto's, Ashura is like a spirit that is using Naruto to stay in the physical world. You can assume from this and how Madara awakened Hagoromo's rinnegan, that their chakras mix, but they are separate. I agree too that the reincarnation stuff didn't need to exist but it plays into the themes perfectly, not enough about this process's mechanics is directly explained though. It's introduced into the story to bring doubt in Naruto and in the audience on what's really gonna happen, even if this boy was able to convince even Nagato to change, if he's involved in this cycle that is introduced as "fated destiny" it means that his convictions are put against insurmountable odds. This was a burden for Naruto, as we see how much it affects him and his decision making in the 5 kage summit arc. Because their "destiny" was to *kill* each other, not just to fight, something many before them accepted as inevitable. Hagoromo tells what he knew, he's powerful but isn't all-seeing or all-knowing, he still believed it could change which means that he wasn't certain. When it is revealed that Zetsu orchestrated the cycle the story shows that this "fate" is too fabricated, it keeps going because the people get manipulated or believe that there's no going back, such as when Hashirama chose to give up on Madara for the sake of his dream as he saw no other way. Let's not forget that Ashura's objective wasn't to make amends, he was as guilty as Indra in the cycle. When Naruto tells Zetsu that their history is not his creation he's saying that he has agency. He does that and proves that this fate stuff was nonsense, that they can go on another path if they choose to combat the feelings within them that cause them to take the decisions that renew these cycles. As if it was really true, him and Sasuke would never have been able to see eye-to-eye and understand one another, seeing no other way out other than to eliminate each other.
Don't forget that Jiraiya was asked to be Naruto's godfather. So technically, one COULD say Jiraiya already had a potential student in mind when Minato asked him to, but that's just headcanon.
Is very cool how you made some of your videos about things I never paid attention to while watching Naruto, or things i don't see other people talking about. Keep up the good work, man; love your channel.
I actually have a theory with this. We all joke about Naruto’s talk no jutsu throughout the series but I actually think this is an ability Naruto inherited from Asura. Every reincarnation of Asura, including Asura himself, has used talk no jutsu on people before so this makes me wonder if every reincarnation is just really convincing or if their speeches are actually a jutsu that they use unconsciously. I think that talk no Justu is actually a genjutsu that Asura inherited from the sage of the six paths and has passed it down to every one of his reincarnations. I call it: Talk no Genjutsu 🗣️
You know the asura backstory by itself is pretty good, showing how even if you are born to the literal god of shinobi hself you arent liekly to inherent his natural talent, but if you work hard you can reach that potential.its just the reincarnation that ruins it because now naruto was never gonna go down the dark path despite so many like him that did
I thought they retconned that retcon right before the final battle when Naruto told Hagaromo that him and sasuke were not the reincarnation of His sons.
@kevinmcwilliams2281 Even if that was the case it is handled so poorly. Aang being the avatar made sense. Mechanically it was established in world why the avatar is a thing and that ties directly into the plot: mastering all four elements to defeat the Fire lord and bring balance back to the world. Here, it’s Kishimoto forcing this stuff for the sake of a parallel aka connect it lore. A square peg in a round hole. It doesn’t work.
@@mafiagrim But it made sense why the reincarnations happen. The cycle of the four elements and how their past lives and experience translate with the avatar state. So I agree with you that reincarnations aren’t exclusive to last Airbender. It’s just consistent within itself.
Idk if this would work, but I think it would've been cool if the demigod naruto is reincarnation of was meant to be evil, and the one for sasuke was meant to be good, but because of how each character grew throughout the series their paths switched.
Yea all it did was make Naruto out to be hypocrite. "You can do anything if you never give up" or if you have 9 tails Asura hagoromo and on top of that your own OVERPOWERED UZUMAKI Chakra and to boot PLOT ARMOR. For Sasuke it wasn't that bad but they glazed tf outta Naruto a bit TOO MUCH
I dont disagree that Naruto getting super powerups is bad writing, but I think narratively Naruto the character made huge leaps in growth on his own even with his all his plot armor. He accepted himself at the waterfall of truth, he became friends with the nine tailed fox the literal embodiment of hatred, he became the pillar of Gara's convictions and brought the forces of the Shinobi alliance together, and he never gave up on his friend who understood him the most. If only Kaguya didnt exist though....
@ I mean I dont really watch/read Naruto to see the characters fight for spectacle. Naruto Shippuden asks the question of what to do with the cycle of hatred. I think Naruto and Sasuke make a lot of character growth and find their own answers to that question. To be honest, Sasuke is a much more dynamic character than Naruto. From a writer's perspective, Sasuke is objectively a better main character since he goes through the greatest changes throughout the series. Naruto however, stays consistent for a majority of the series and reaches the best conclusion to the main theme's question. Literally at the waterfall of truth where Naruto has to confront his own inner hatred, he comes to the conclusion that in order to end the cycle of hatred, one must first accept and understand oneself. Next, he goes right into not only taming, but befriending Kurama (In OG Naruto, Kurama was believed to be a manifestation of hatred. In shippuden, through Naruto we learn that not only is Kurama a tsundere, but all the other tailed beasts have names and personalities as well.) In every instance where people reference Naruto using talk no Jutsu, its not just a plot point, its a statement on the overall theme of the entire show. Reincarnation or not, Naruto make great growth!
Lol Naruto would've died many times over if it weren't for 9 tails. Heck without 9 tails, hes just an orphan kid. Would'nt be hated, would'nt be special and wouldn't even make it past Neji. Naruto didn't work hard a day in his life. If he did then everyone did. 9 tails just gave Naruto his power on a platter after it was beaten and had its chakra forcefully removed. The reincarnation hardly ruined what was already based on nonsense. Sasuke is a bit different and was actually nerfed his whole life. Hes the only reincarnate of Indra that we know of that didnt awaken full susanoo with only MS. Naruto would've been long unalived if Sasuke was actually a indra reincarnate. Still not ruined as much though.
I like to think that the story of Naruto was more so a story of dealing with hatred head on and ending the cycle that entrapped the generation that came before you.
There was no retcon. Kakashi in chapter 234 says in the valley of the end that they're the same as Hashirama and Madara, in that same chapter we're introduced to Zetsu Kakashi literally says "As long as they live *the cycle* will continue" in the chapter were Zetsu (Kaguya's will) is introduced
@@NumidianKing and how does Kakashi know that they are reincarnations of the 2 sons? maybe he just thinks that the cycle refers to Uchiha clan black sheep vs Senju/Uzumaki individual..
People really overestimate them being Incarnations (Which they are, if they were REincarnations, they'd literally just be exact copies of Indra and Ashura) A. Being Incarnations didnt give them anything, sans the SO6P giving them SO6P powers all it would've done it caused them to fight. B. Kinda similar to the first point being a reincarnation along with the other stuff naruto has (Being an Uzumaki, Son of the 4th & Kurama's Jinchūriki) didnt mean he was destined for greatness, one out of those things wouldve had worse causes if Kishi didn't, respectfully, suck at word building (Naruto being actively hunted anytime he was out of the leaf for being an Uzumaki) and did have partial issues, in conjuctions with being Kurama's Jinchūriki (Large chakra Reserves = Bad starting Chakra control), So Naruto wasn't destined for greatness thus negating the Hard Work beats Talent trope, he had POTENTIAL for greatness (which he accomplished through, guess what? Hard work).
I don’t think it really “ruins” everything but it makes the cycle of hatred a metaphor when it doesn’t need to. A seemingly endless cycle where people are destined to hate and seek to destroy eachother for circumstances that they did not choose but nonetheless perpetuate.
true, all you said is true and this reincarnation bs made naruto worse, there were some good points after the pain arc, but it was downhill from there and fell off a cliff with the war arc. kishimoto dropped the ball with the kagura/sage of six paths bs....
Put kagura in war arc is very bad idea cuz war arc Madara is the antagonist for so long and all of a sudden he replace to kagura by black zetsu despite Madara is the main target need to defeat but change target to someone else. Kishimoto should put her in movie or spin off to know of her and her people which make totally sense cuz in war arc it Madara the purpose of that arc.
I'm tired of people saying Naruto isn't talented. He Mastered the Shadow clone Jutsu in a few hours, the Rasengan in a week and then create the most powerful Wind Style Jutsu of all time.
One Piece does it a bit better as it being inherited will, so essentially just people that have similar or the same desires but totally still their own person. Which make sense and is better because many people share the same desire. So If it was more symbolic than literal chakra reincarnation. It would be better. Since Hagaromo gave them the chakra anyway. They didn't need to be reincarnates anyway. Just have Hagaromo give them Indra and Ashuras Chakra because they are similar to them, and mor eimportantly, to stop Madara/Kaguya
I see it more as a cookie cutter situation. Being the reincarnation of either Ashura or Indra makes a distinct mold on your body and soul. Be it chocolate chip or gingerbread it still has a similar appearance to the original. I feel that it also opens a unique path to power that fits the lore of the character. Sasuke is strongest or gets stronger when he fights for himself. While Naruto is strongest or gets stronger when he fights for others. The only way to break that set loop is to accept the other sides way as valid and to meet somewhere in the middle.
To be fair to Madara, that was the first time he was fighting with hashiramas dna in him. That would explain why he’s stronger than before. He took hashiramas flesh and died, and grafted it on his body later.
If you ask the Reddit page this isn’t a retcon because it was teased and never stated they weren’t going to be gods at the end of the series , but nah the story didn’t start with that as the goal it’s a retcon
I'm not convinced them having the same chakra while they're both alive is much of a stretch. It's not like there's limited chakra overall. Yeah, you can run out of chakra, but you can still produce more. Aka there's enough to go around
I always get Indra and Ashura confused. Anyways,Yeah this whole Naruto is Indra and Sasuke is Ashura is so confusing,When I made my lil' sis watch Naruto. I skipped anything Otsutsuki related and when we reached Juubidara,I skipped to the final fight after Guy lost. She still enjoyed it just as much as I enjoyed it
Izuna and Kawarama Senju should have been the previous reincarnations, Kishi could of wrote the curse was so strong in that era that they both died before meeting, Madara and Hashi should just be their own characters.
And ultimately, what does it all mean now that they defied fate? What does their relevance as reincarnations really do for them that just being some of the strongest for one reason or another due to clan benefits and training doesn't get across? It majorly makes their own inability to understand each other come off a lot cheaper when it seems to imply they were just destined to be this way instead of coming to their own conclusions based on the things they have learned since then.
Come to think of it, the souls can split - we see it by how Orochimaru did it with his cursed seals, or how Hagoromo did steal the soul of his hands to the Grim Reaper
Honestly, it would've been cooler if Indra and Ashura just somehow came back and fought in the war against SOSP Madara/Kaguya alongside Naruto and Sasuke. Knowing Kishimoto, he could asspull some plot device to resurrect them. He was also complaining that he didn't know how to end Madara for good, well now you do. We could've potentially see Indra with rinnegan at some point with SOSP or Ashura with Rinnegan alongside his SOSP (Really going into What If territory but fuck it, it's cool) Basically, resurrect the two Demi-Gods and give them some awesome new powers/powerups and Madara gets buttfucked into Kaguya's dimension where she'll get pounded by both of them while Sasuke and Naruto can be backup.
I think it would be interesting if somebody made a weaker version of reaper death seal where they seal only a single part of the body and this could be a interesting way to defeat the otsosuki by sealing parts of there body over a fight
To be honest I don't think the reincarnation episode ruined Naruto, it just kind of cheapened everything Naruto had done in the story cause we could no longer see it as hard work but as the fact he was the reincarnation of the literal son of a god
Naruto theme was not hard work most of his strength came from the 9 tails and bonds. He's not even the actual reincarnation, he just has their chakra attached to him and that doesn't even make him strong.
@@plantcrone9662 went from getting abused by Madara, to, after activating that chacra, be in the same lvl. And he saves Guy with a tap. What hardwork was there? You can rewach, after Guy ends his fight XDDDDD.
Reminds me of the last episode of Jojo part 5 with the Rolling Stone. It retroactively adds a prophesy that says what characters were going to die, and I felt like it didn't really add anything. Except maybe the fact that one of the characters knew that he and some of the other characters were going to die, but it didn't change what he was going to do. Which I guess makes him seem brave or something, but at the same time it makes him seem callous about his companions dying. And it doesn't help that I expected more falling action instead of an episode that was just a flashback, and it made it seem like the show ends abruptly to me.
In theory if they wanted to make them as semi deity I would have preferred if they had done something like : madaras brother was the one that was suposed to be the chosen one in theory but at his death when madara who was suposed to be the itachi of that cycle he took his eyes and suposedly it give them their power like sasuke was getting the power from itachi. They wouldn't need to be in an eternal conflict. More like they are the two balancing the world from each side. Madara would be more of the one who should never have been allowed to have the power.
Id like to think that in the naruto universe a soul has an essence that is transfered. So then, the soul is like a liminal body, like in the hiruzen fight. It could multiply from the essence but its not taking away, just creating from the same source material. Cause if u dont think of it that way, then it doesnt male sense at all, at least in my part
When Madara and hasarmai died and Naruto and Sasuke got the souls of the sons. When Madara and lord first came back with edo tensi they had their souls not the sons of the sage of six paths anymore. Just them
Based on some of the language you use I'm guessing you have some sort of experience in biblical hermeneutics and or world religions. I'm totally guessing but words such as "echos" when referring to types of prophecy are the same I learned in seminary. Anyway, great video!
The thing is, if sasuke and madara are the same spirit, how the hell are they both incarnated at the same time? I think Kishimoto doesn't understand reincarnation.
Y'ALL UNDERSTANDING REINCARNATION IN YOUR WESTERN MIND. In japanese folklore, reincarnation does NOT mean is exactly the same soul. The new soul is conected to the past lives, but the soul is not one and only. It's the same as Kagoma and Kikyo in Inuyasha.
Nah the worst part is not that Naruto lost his cred, the worst part is that we paused the story and gave Naruto and Sasuke a final power up so they could fight a worthless final villain like Kaguya.
Naruto and hashirama where born powerful while asura had no potential until he got a ninshu from his father which created wood style and all the other crazy powers asura has.
Determinism for most medias is horrible. In fact, the media around RESISTING fate is much more popular and easy to appreciate as a story. Whenever your characters are not active agents in their own stories, the moment X happens because it's PURELY destiny, that's never a good idea. Even Neo in the matrix slowly had to believe in himself over time, and Neo slowly began to trust in Morpheus' vision earlier, but the prophecy the Oracle sought was never portrayed as a certain outcome that we all expected.
You do have an issue with how powerful they became. One of your complaints was how Madara and Hashirama were so strong. The answer is the main characters were just that strong.
Paragraph I like the reincarnation trope, to me it doesn't negatively affect the story or naruto which is about over coming hatred through appreciating the humanity in others and having the drive or guts to circumvent obstacles (gaining the respect of others), you'll find this from episode one. I only wish naruto/sasuke was the reincarnation of Asura/indras spirit, and to justify how they can be alive at the same time as their predecessors Hashirama/Madara, I'd use occult understandings of how spirits (due to being higher dimensional sentient energy) can be in two places at once. Chakra in naruto has been established to carry on after death, clinging to the living as found in the cases of karura (gaaras mom) and obito. Also reincarnation doesn't necessarily create predeterminism, if you and another have conflicting values and exist in the same environment, you are going to clash naturally. If an Asura or Indra reincarnate sat on their butts all day, they would accomplish nothing (just as anyone with potential for greatness does not work hard or become conlmplacent will achieve nothing). And naruto being all that he is doesn't prove Neji COMPLETELY right, lets be real we all knew naruto would be hokage from the get-go, neji's mistake was him being an arrogant hypocritcal know it all like he's god or the author of the story, he said those who we victors or hokage were born genius prodigies, ignoring the possibility that those who are late bloomers, or diligent could be serious contenders. Furthermore he said people should accept their destiny yet he tried to strike hinata down who according to his philosophy is his rightful superior he must defer to. (People confuse being a nameless hack for being an underdog, not every nameless hack is and underdog and not every underdog is nameless hack)
The reincarnation really was badly executed but it doesn't undermine anyone's character, it just adds a bit of unnecessary lore to the characters. It was stated by Hagoromo himself that Indra and Ashura chose Naruto and Sasuke because of their beliefs and way of living, which means they weren't born as their reincarnates, they were chose to be that after Indra and Ashura's souls watched them living their lives for some amount of time from the other side or whatever (since Kishimoto didn't even try to explain that part). And then again, if destiny really was such a strong thing in the series, Naruto and Sasuke would've killed each other in battle instead of Naruto breaking the cycle and actually saving Sasuke by being himself. So if anything, Naruto is actually better than Ashura ever was and he has its own merit on that alongside everything else he ever accomplished. In the end, becoming Ashura's reincarnate was more of some sort of "reward" or a symbol of Ashura's faith on him, passing him a big responsability that he believes Naruto is fit to carry, which is his will, all because Naruto proved himself worthy. And the same goes for Sasuke, regarding Indra's will, of course, but Naruto was actually the more special one for winning in a way that breaks the cycle.
The son of the hokage,disciple of a legendary sanin, member of the clan with the most chakra,child of prophecy, receptacle of the strongest piece of god is also the reincarnation of a demigod...
Great kishimoto,truly effort beats talent
Lee losing to gara in case you forget so hard work wasn't the main them
And nobody took care of him in the village.
@@luksalter8200 hard work beating talent was never the theme of the series nor was it the theme of Naruto’s character
@mafiagrim I always found that line of thinking flawed because one can't really exist without the other. Without hard work, your talent will never improve, and without talent, your work would be wasted.
@@mafiagrimThat was what Naruto’s fight with Neji was about, no such thing as fate or destiny just work harder!
Basically the reincarnation retcon basically validated Neji’s earlier worldview.
Yup. Pretty much.
@@Thomas20Smith it didn’t Neji’s ideology was wrong if he was right Naruto would’ve ended sasuke and continue the cycle of hatred
@@mafiagrimBut he was right about some people just being born better than others. It just ended up that Naruto was more special than the special people Neji was referring to since he could cheat destiny itself while having all the upsides.
Not really, There's tons of previous reincarnations of Ashura and Indra, who had the same destiny as Naruto and Sasuke, but failed
I mean... not really. Even during that fight Naruto points out how hypocritical that worldview was. Neji's "Destiny" was all completely made up based on whatever he believed. For example, Neji believed that Rock Lee was destined to be beneath him... except 5th Gate Rock Lee would have completely destroyed Neji. He says during the fight that Naruto's "destiny" was to lose... except he won. None of it was grounded in any semblence of reality.
"What about Sakura? Is she also-"
"Nah. 2 children. No more than that. There are also 9 animals though."
Bruh she gets the short end of the stick in this franchise
@@dragonoverdrive6859sakura at least got to punch ninja god. What did tenten do besides barely beat a clone of herself in a fight
@@MuttonErase yeah your right tenten had no screen time
Sakura is not a main character like them and was never supposed to be on their level ever. She's more similar to Kiba than Naruto/Sasuke
@jacksborns3414 That doesn’t mean much when Kakashi is a side character and was utilized well. Sakura is the official female lead, and is utilized poorly. She had more screen time than other side characters, but it was poorly done. Especially when you compare her writing to those who got even less screen time than her, like Shikamaru. To say she was to have as little Impact as Kiba is hilarious though.
You know what's weird. I don't mind the retcon for sasuke but for Naruto i hate it. Sasuke being destined to struggle with his dark side doesn't mean he will end up good or bad but Naruto being destined to be good undermines his struggle
Naruto was still the only one to find a peacefull resolution to his conflict because of his journey
Naruto was never destined to be good at all Naruto fans misunderstanding their show again are you forgetting the amount of times when Naruto was destined to bring the world to ashes from the sage toad
@Asteriarimia because he's destined to be good that's the whole point of the comment above
@@venomking3602 naruto was never destined to be good at all heck Naruto changed his fate at the end of the show like yall kids really are funny listening to someone who hates Naruto
@@Omen_SMK every step of the way no one ever thought Naruto would be anything else than good. If the views can surmise that from the first episode, he was destined to be so lol.
How come 90% or more of the flaws in all of the Naruto series are concentrated in one single arc
Honestly that makes sense seeing that kishi changed editors before the war arc
Because that arc is pretty poorly written honestly but these flaws existed before the war arc aswell but it wasn’t the same amount or as big
@@DygoKnightYup. If Kaguya had at least been explained before this arc as opposed to being exposition dumped during the arc, this could have worked. But this really was let’s heighten the stakes to such a massive level and reveal the Kaguya lore. Even though Madara exists and was hinted and shown during this arc to be a potent threat.
@@DygoKnightthe editor has nothing to do with it since kishismoto has to come up with everything kishismoto was just rushed to end the show and didn't help that his father passed away during the manga run and he missed his father funeral he was tired after working for 15 years
@@DygoKnight He changed it just before the Pain arc
Remember when Sasuke was starting to open up to his team mates and accepting the possibility of living a normal life alongside his friends in Konoha and then Itachi shows up to remind him of his vengeance? Yeah, that has absolutely no weight anymore, Sasuke's whole characters falls apart, more than Naruto i'd argue, especially because as much as Naruto world view was questioned, he never doubted it, Sasuke on the other hand was in constant conflict for a pretty big part of the Classic sagas, espcially after the country of the waves arc and the moment Itachi came by, so what the reencarnaition retcom basically does is to undermine Sasuke's whole journey and eventual re decay and is saying that no matter what he would have went off to try and kill Naruto eventually. That is so frustrating it is even hard to put into words, especially because classic Naruto, as flawed as it is, is still the best iteration of the character and the franchise as a whole.
I disagree part 2 destroys anything in part 1
@@john_negs7720 You mean shippuden is better than classic? I mean, if that's your opinion, you have all the right to like it, it definetly has more flaws and plot holes than classic, but that doesn't really mean you can't like it.
What makes you think that he would have tried to kill Naruto eventually? The cycle can be broken as seen in shipudden. Of course this is going into the realms of fanfic but Naruto and Sasuke's relationship was healthy before the retrieval arc.
@@HaGa-zq5cn Literally the plot? The whole point to why the reencarnation retcom is bad is because it predetermines these characters fates. The cycle was broken after a direct confrontation between the main characters and sasuke recognizing he lost,. The anime literally states that they were bound to try and kill each other, which means that even if Itachi didn't do anything, something would have eventually happened, but it doesn't matter because the result is always the same, that's why it is such an awful concept in the first place.
@@RedCanidae Again, the cycle can be broken and maybe it could have been broken there. Nothing of what you said (besides, maybe the dramatic storytelling of shonen) proves that wrong.
Have you ever watched Inuyasha? They actually had a similar situation there, and dealt with it quite elegantly.
The lead, Kagome, was a reincarnation of Kikyo. An oni named... I think Urusue, tries to bring Kikyo back as a puppet, but it fails because Kagome is there, despite Kagome technically having come into the feudal era through time travel. But the puppet semi comes to life when Kagome draws near, and sucks a portion of the soul back. This creates a revenant version of Kikyo, who exists as a somewhat-antagonist for much of the run. It's really cool.
Inuyasha is one of my favorite animes. Glad it's not forgotten.
Also worth of note is that Kikyo reborns specifically as an soul eater youkai, because she need to keep filling the other 90'ish percent of her soul that is still with Kagome (altough I dont remember with Kagome had any problems coming from losing a fragment of her soul).
If it worked like this, it would be interesting. Sasuke needing to defeat Madara to "release" his full potential and Hashirama and Naruto having some kind of bond that let they use part of esch others jutsu.
Kikyo was there due to her wish to always be with inuyasha . Her punishment was to ash her reincarnation be with the man she loved since she was already dead soul. I kishimoto wrote himself into several corners elongating the story.
Naruto failing the ninja exam 3 times, him working hard to learn tree climbing, water walking and the freaking Rasengan; plus the stuff with Rock Lee, Might Guy & Sakura Haruno (the strongest normal ninjas), and the Neji situation kinda of implies that working hard was a theme.
The real curse of Naruto was Hindsight!!!
Because, everybody in Konoha should have known that Naruto was Minato the Hokage's son and therefore more people should have sympathized with him and not 99.99% of the village ostracizing him.
I refuse to believe that Ichiraku, Ayame (maybe), and Iruka are the only people that saw Naruto not as a monster but an orphan boy who needed compassion and understanding!
The whole reincarnation retcon was stupid. There was no explanation on how it worked.
It’s not even a retcon
A lot of this video's points are stupid. For the fact that being a reincarnation doesn't equate to "having the same life benefits". The reincarnation gives them a lot of the same traits and gives them a lot of potential. But that doesn't mean he's "automatically going to achieve those heights". He still has to work and make it through HIS situation. It's because life is different in different times. Even if they have the same souls, there are too many variables in their lives that play a role in how they are affected or grow. It might be different if they went thru the EXACT same things in their lives. In other words, just because I have a perfect copy of me and that copy is placed in the ice age or 1000 yrs in my future, that doesn't mean he'll achieve the same things that I have accomplished just because we are the same person.
@ exactly
@@blueisacolor7639he was destined to make it through all his challenges. Naruto was the child of prophecy all along. He was destined to bring all the tailed beast together and destined to end the cycle with his brother (Sasuke). It amazes me how much Naruto fans cope about the writing of this series
@giovalladares1022 what exactly does this have to do with what I said? Did I not specifically speak on the reincarnation?
Regardless, let me entertain you, anyways... What did the prophecies say, exactly? Can you quote all things said from it that we know of or at the very least, what you know it said, precisely?
And the funny thing is, they could’ve just had hagormo show up like he did and give sasuke and Naruto powers and skipping the whole “oh btw you guys are a reincarnation of my sons”
RIGTH?!!! They are his descendants, that could've been more than enough reason for him to be able to give them power
@@Heishinigami why does it even matter at that point then? You just admitted you agree with them being the descendants of Hogoromo which is something that was stated since the beginning of the show. Why does them being the descendants reincarnation of his sons even matter now at that point? Like how does this even change the entirety of the show? lol
I saw the clip and was like yeah that’s cool. They remind her of her sons lol. It’s stupid but sweet.
I didn’t realize they were actually, literally her sons. We don’t have to raise the stakes every 5 seconds to make something interesting, is my take away.
Why did Nagato never revive Yahiko with rinne rebirth? It seems implied that the only reason he died from casting it on the leaf village was he revived way too many people with way too little chakra after his fight with Naruto and burned himself out. So why did he never revive his best friend when he had full chakra reserves and his corpse on hand?
Rinne Rebirth is weird. During the war arc its implied that the user dies no matter what when Obito and Madara talk about it.
I remember someone saying there's a limit on how much time passes between someone dying and being revives by rinne rebirth don't remember who though
Yahiko is like an earlier Warwick, good intentioned guy who is puppeted into a weapon and just dies without glory
@@MuttonErase what about madara tho he died way earlier and still got revived
He wanted to end all the fighting in the world. The only way to do that is for people to know his pain and realize that the fightings must end in order for the pain to end. Bringing Yahiko back means that Nagato will no longer have that pain. He can't make people know that pain if he himself doesn't know it.
At least the way "reincarnation" works here is that their chakra that's the same, not their souls. They're still their own people with their own souls (hence why Hashirama and Madara can be revived via Edo Tensei and exist alongside Naruto and Sasuke despite being "reincarnations" of the same people). So they're still their own people with their own personalities, they just inherited their ancestor's chakra.
But that doesn't make it a good retcon, regardless, it essentially means, Naruto and Sasuke were always meant to turn out OK, if they inherit all these attributes from their chakra. The resounding, final Fuck You to anyone, who believed, "fate must be defied". Well, good job, because in Boruto, Naruto changed diddly-fucking squat, there is no peace, underaged shinobi still get used as child soldiers, and every promise Naruto ever made, was factually broken. Meaning, fate cannot be defied in the end, which is exactly, what the original series wanted us to spite and stand AGAINST, not FOR it.
@@djjin5768 this wqas literally foreshadowed at the end of the naruto and sasuke part 1 fight lol its not a retcon.
that still would not fly though. If the Chakra are the only things that transfer and not the souls, then Madara and Hashirama should both not have god powers when they are resurrected again. Their Chakras has already been reincarnated into Sasuke and Naruto so Madara and Hashirama should both be very weak.
For example if you were to pass on your Toyota Tundra to your son and he passes it all the way down to your great grandson, he has it now. Even if you wake up from Cryo sleep, you still don't have the truck, your great grandson has it. So you don't get to drive it or go off-roading with it unless your great grandson gives it back to you.
Besides that, how does it travel and knows that both chakra are destined by fate to fight each other? Couldn't both chakra just disappeared and end the rivalry for forever? That's why it makes more sense that the souls are the reincarnated ones rather than chakra.
Kishimoto fudged up the story, let's just go along with it. That's why i prefer shorter Manga series now like Demon Slayer that ends it before it becomes pointless.
I don't think their chakra is the same at all, Hagoromo describes it as Ashura clinging onto Naruto, seems to be more like avatar where there's a spirit on them and their chakra mix to some degree, but like in avatar they're 100% their own people.
@@djjin5768in Boruto there is a lack of shinobi because all of the peace means there isn’t a need for shinobi. Also, the economic situation of the village is at record highs. So, I don’t think the promise of Part 1 wasn’t fulfilled…
Remember the Naruto vs Neji fight? Naruto believing you can achieve greatness with effort, Neji believing you were either born to be great or not? And how Naruto proved that enough effort can overcome natural talent, changing Neji's view on his own fate?
Yeah....good thing Neji died before having to find out Naruto was born into greatness all along....
You’re an idiot
@@wikus2411 If neji was right Naruto would’ve killed sasuke since that was his destiny
Neji's arc was that he was a walking paradox. He claims that people can not escape their destiny, yet he puts people done for doing so. We see this with his fight with hinata where he puts her down for trying her best. He hated hinata for trying to train and become better. He hated her for trying to get closer to him despite being cousins. In his fight with Naruto, he claims that people are bound by their destiny, and yet he is the most talented from his clan. Naruto's rebutal is that neji holds himself back with that kind of thinking. Which is why Naruto won his fight against him. He met neji unwaveringly despite being outmatched and beat the odds. In other words he proved that Neji's claim was wrong. Further down the line in the war arc when neji dies for Naruto, that was him fulfilling his arc (even though it's a pretty sucky way to write an arc). He chose his own destiny in that moment.
@@malibu5230 thank god you actually understand what Nejis arc meant
@@malibu5230actually, Hinata's and Neji's talent (or lack of) is something that makes Neji's point even more clear.
Neji is the best ninja in his generation, and yet he will forever be a second class citizen because of the seal in his forehead. Hinata is quite flankly a fucking mess, and yet she is the one that will became the head of the main family.
Hanabi is just salt put into the injury, since she is also more talented than Hinata (to the point that their father is obviously considerating to break the rules and make her the next head) and yet again she will be forced to take the seal and became a member of a brench family unless some weird rule bendig happens.
let's just pretend that the classic is the only cannon thing
The story ended with Madera casting the genjutus
So an unfinished story?
Canon*
Tinha que ser BR, se entregou quando chamou a parte 1 de Clássico, e não de OG
The series was really really good until the pain arc (peak fiction)
Don't know what the heck happened to Kishi after that
After this Naruto's talk on hard work and that destiny doesn't exist, made him the biggest hypocrite of the entire series
He's not hypocrite. How was he supposed to know he's child of prophecy when he was a kid lol
@@Nobodysurvivesevenonebit Neji was right though!
@@chaos_knight_xy neji wasnt right lol
@ Yes he was, he fulfilled his destiny to die for the main branch.
@@chaos_knight_xy Neji said: We do not decide our destiny. Neji deliberately jumped to the rescue. he DID decide..............................................
I remember when people made fun of Ichigo for the entire "yeah he's a shinigami, but also a vaizard and half quincy" well fk me sideways he wasn't the reincarnation of an alien chakra jesus.
I really hate the direction Naruto took after the Akatsuki arc, horribleh.
I'd also argue that Ichigo's situation was handled a bit better. Yes, it's very convenient that he has all the races of the series, but his Shinigami and Hollow inner conflict is quite compelling and a big aspect of his character. The Quincy part was definitely a bit forced, but I personally think the "Everything But The Rain" and "The Blade is Me" chapters compensate for that.
I'm not saying is perfect by any means, but I think Kubo handled it quite well and some of Ichigo's best character moments stem from having those races. I can't say the same for Naruto and Sasuke.
The problem is the sense of Kishimoto slathering significance upon Naruto's character for all of Shippuden. Starting from making him "the child of prophecy" destined to save the world, to discovering he's actually the son of the martyred uber-talented Hokage that was kept secret from him for no reason, all the way to being the legitimate reincarnation of a god-like being. None of this made his character more interesting or compelling compared to who he was in part-one of Naruto, rather it chipped away at the identity he built for himself thus far by overshadowing it with mythic grandeur.
It only exist to keep guy alive because he was too popular kishismoto wanted to kill him after using the 8 gate but shonan didn't allow him to do that
The only reason Kishimoto pulled this from his rear, was because he needed to simplify the Naruto Sasuke conflict so it would be resolved quickly. So by having them as reincarnations he can ignore everything else that happened between them and make their final fight just about the brotherly curse feud, this ignores their different ideologies Sasuke past crimes against the leaf and Naruto and just put the whole blame on mystical thing like reincarnation without even fully explaining it.
@@Iron700man it only exist to keep guy alive because kishismoto wanted to kill him after using the 8 gate but he was too popular
The reincarnation plot point was foreshadowed in part 1 gang
@@john_negs7720 No, it wasn't.
@ yes it was
That's exactly why I don't like it very much we are giving this Excuse for way sasuke in the end is doing this instead of looking back after sasuke says last good bye to Itachi.
Naruto and Sasuke were better off being descendants of Ashura and Indra instead of reincarnations
All that sage had to say was Sasuke and Naruto remind him of his sons and there connected by bloodlines just like Madara and Hashi. Sage would say he does not want Kaguya revived and Sasuke and Naruto seem to be the best option at the moment to grant a power boost. There the best by there previous hard work.
I like the idea of Ashura and Indra in a sense that their struggle thematically aligns with the overarching theme of shippuden. The problem for me arises when naruto and sasuke get power ups from it. With the addition of Kaguya thrown in there, it just kinda sucks all the conflict out of what could have been a good climax. Its like literally throwing a wrench into a story for no reason. Its what happens when you write your main antagonist to be too powerful and you dont have a way for your main characters to overcome it naturally. I would have been more satisied if Madara got talk no jutsued into ending the war with the power of friendship or some shit.
It would’ve been just as simple to make Naruto and Sasuke descendants of Ashura and Indra, that would’ve been less convoluted. Like imagine a twist where one of Naruto’s great grandparents was a senju who married an uzumaki, that would’ve been cool. But no we had to pull off this reincarnation garbage because Kishimoto was creatively bankrupt at this point.
SwagKage explains this best. Regardless of naruto being an incarnate of Ashura it really does not matter nor undermine naruto as a character or an underdog. He still accomplished what none of his other incarnations could mind you Hashirama was one of them and he was not only an incarnate of Ashura but he was talented in ability, Intelligent enough to set up the village system, Tamed all tail beast with strength alone, Was the strongest shinobi of his time effortlessly with only madara rivaling him. Yet he still failed while naruto did not while naruto had not a lick of what Hashirama had. If that isn't an underdog story idk what is.
saying that naruto accomplished what non of his other incarnations could doesn't work because he is literally the child of prophecy the toad told hagaromo about. so he was destined to be the most important incarnation.
Dude, this point right here, is where the plot's overall good will completely shat in on itself. It just feels so cheap, it cheapens the impact of everything we have seen Naruto and Sasuke go through, up until this point. It basically implies, "oh, they always had their chakra, so they were always meant to turn out OK", it just contradicts the overarching core theme of rebellion against your own fate. So many characters that Naruto fought over the years, were cursed with fates, that they believed, was something, they HAD to commit to, because, they had no hope of changing it. But now it's like, oh, they have the same chakra as two demigods from thousands of years ago? Then, what was the point of everything we have witnessed thus far? Was it all fate, too? Honestly, the moment someone like Neji, whom Naruto promised to, that he will be doing everything in his power to change the fate of the Hyuga clan, passed away, it felt like an insane cop-out to me. Screw everything, Naruto is a god, now. Now shut up, and stop asking me for shit.
Neji was right after all
Love your content Dygo! The most recent rewrite was SO good and I’m already getting more content?! You’re the best!
The only reason this reincarnation thing exist, is for Boruto plot. Because it's more important there, for the karma bs and all that.
A huge misunderstanding about the concept of reincarnation is that it must happen linearly. Souls are Hyperdimension objects that transcend spacetime and can therefore be in multiple places at once. A Good analogy is a computer software, it may be duplicated and modified but is still technically a reincarnation of the original. This being said Dygo's perspective is correct because the reincarnation retcon is inconsistent with how souls are established to work in the Naruto universe. The retcon is also very unnecessary and compromises several established themes in the story and breaks Naruto's character.
This video basically sums up my thoughts on the topic as well;
I'm totally fine with Naruto and Sasuke being parallels of Hashirama and Madara I think that elevates the story, I'm even ok with that conflict having been a generational thing since the very beginning with Indra and Ashura, it establishes the idea of the cycle of hatred and that it will end with Naruto and Sasuke.
But the moment you bring reincarnation into the story, it feels like these characters were always supposed to fight each other, there would never be a scenario where they don't fight, which I feel takes away the values and individual beliefs of the characters, they aren't at odds because their world view is different, they're at odds because they were born to be complete opposites.
Like, Ashura and Indra, the sons of the Sage of 6 Paths being the progenitors of the Senju and the Uchiha clans is great for world building and Naruto and Sasuke being their descendants can explain why they get so powerful, they didn't need to be reincarnated.
Sorry for the long comment, but in short, yeah I totally agree with this, and could go on, but don't want this getting way too long lol.
Yeah for worldbuilding its definitely a deepening of lore which I love. However the fact that they get super powered up RIGHT when we learn that they are reincarnations feels flat just like you said. From a writers standpoint, it might have been better to lean more into what it means for the narrative. Naruto and Sasuke both aiming to answer the question of "how to end the cycle of hatred?" is such an interesting premise. Losing steam just because of the introduction of Kaguya, Ashura and Indra is so sad imo.
long story short neji was right.
I think this is the final endpoint of something that happened towards the tail end of Naruto, you started to see characters described as being Naruto-like or Sasuke-like. Look at Fu in the anime, she's basically meant to be a female Naruto and everyone remarks on how much like Naruto she was. It eventually becomes this pattern that shows up again and again throughout the history of the ninja world, a pair where one is hopeful and optismistic and the other is cynical and jaded repeating again and again. This is fine as a theme for a story IF it's explicitly set up or foreshadowed in the story, but because it just kind of comes out of nowhere, it ultimately feels more like Kishimoto only writes two character archetypes and either can't or isn't interested in writing anything else than those two. It really is startling looking back at the series just how much it fumbles foreshadowing and setting things up, the only events set up that really pay off at all is the fight between Naruto and Sasuke while almost everything else is abandoned by the end of the series. And, by all accounts, Boruto is even worse.
18:12 "it's much more interesting if that works as an echo of history; an echo, not a copy."
pretty much perfect summary of how i feel regarding the situation.
sometimes im happy i tend to misunderstand some things in stories i consume, bc that was actually how i interpreted hag telling the boys what they represented; i saw it as a parallel, not a reincarnation (i mean obviously im wrong here, but it definitely made my experience with the rest of naruto less painful as a result), and honestly if this reasoning was actually canon (instead of the reincarnation concept kishimoto goes with) it would have gone hard imo
Early gang. Hammerhead squad assemble! Rise up!
Hammerhead 4ever #believe #faith
What's hammerhead??
@@name_less_being a shark
I love your recent content!!! Keep up the good work Dygo
Appreciate it! 🙏
It makes as much sense as the traditional view of reincarnation - None.
If it’s up to me, I’d at least handle it like this: they’re not reincarnates. And Hashirama and Madara are direct descendants instead. That would explain how they’re so powerful and talented at an early age and since all their descendants are dead, except Tsunade, doesn’t cause future problems. Madara was the only Uchiha, aside from Sasuke, who could awaken the Rinnegan because he got chakra from Ashura’s direct descendant. Hagaromo gave Naruto Ashura’s chakra and Sasuke Indra’s chakra after Hashirama also gave Sasuke some of Ashura’s chakra. No wonder Sasuke only got one Rinnegan because he didn’t awaken it himself and he’s not a direct descendant of Indra. It also didn’t make sense with the theme of genius older brother and dunce younger brother because Hashirama was a genius and stronger than Madara from the beginning. Kishimoto making Naruto a reincarate of one of the most powerful being who ever existed was just stupid. Even though he’s the son of Minato and Kushina, at least he didn’t outright inherit their talents and so he still had to earn every buff he got. Just stupid imo.
I think the part about madara not being indras reincarnation anymore is more about him becoming more than that. It's not that he doesn't possess that Chakra but rather his obtained Chakra closer to his own and his mother
I am not sure, but I think the reincarnation retcon was introduced to retcon the earlier retcon that the Rinnegan was the second stage of the Sharingan. This change ensures that not all Uchiha can develop the Rinnegan, only one Uchiha can. Also, not all Senju cells work for this, only those of one specific person do.
I hate the reincarnation retcon sooo much! One of my favorite aspects of the Kage summit, was when Naruto admits he hated the village and his and Sasuke's roles could've been reversed
The five kage summit foreshadowed the reincarnation plot point tho😭
The reincarnation cycle was not a retcon, was built up since Pt 1 of Naruto and only made the characters and core themes of Naruto better.
What copium are you using give me some so I can be dumb also😂😂😂
@Saprana lmfao copium? I'm just stating facts.
This "retcon" has been worked on ever since the first valley of the end fight. The story of Indra and Ashura was introduced roughly 300 chapters before Hagoromo.
The whole point of it was to flesh out the rivalry of Naruto and Sasuke and the core theme of overcoming your destiny.
Most idiots don't even think about the significance of it in the story and just think of it as a whatever no jutsu random slop in the story.
I think there are some problems with the conclusions reached in the video. This comment is a bit long but I tried to separate the points in short paragraphs to make it easier to read.
The first part is about them having the same chakra, that's not the case, as Hagoromo himself describes, he can see Ashura's chakra *clinging* onto Naruto, this implies that Ashura's chakra is not Naruto's, Ashura is like a spirit that is using Naruto to stay in the physical world. You can assume from this and how Madara awakened Hagoromo's rinnegan, that their chakras mix, but they are separate. I agree too that the reincarnation stuff didn't need to exist but it plays into the themes perfectly, not enough about this process's mechanics is directly explained though.
It's introduced into the story to bring doubt in Naruto and in the audience on what's really gonna happen, even if this boy was able to convince even Nagato to change, if he's involved in this cycle that is introduced as "fated destiny" it means that his convictions are put against insurmountable odds. This was a burden for Naruto, as we see how much it affects him and his decision making in the 5 kage summit arc. Because their "destiny" was to *kill* each other, not just to fight, something many before them accepted as inevitable.
Hagoromo tells what he knew, he's powerful but isn't all-seeing or all-knowing, he still believed it could change which means that he wasn't certain. When it is revealed that Zetsu orchestrated the cycle the story shows that this "fate" is too fabricated, it keeps going because the people get manipulated or believe that there's no going back, such as when Hashirama chose to give up on Madara for the sake of his dream as he saw no other way. Let's not forget that Ashura's objective wasn't to make amends, he was as guilty as Indra in the cycle.
When Naruto tells Zetsu that their history is not his creation he's saying that he has agency. He does that and proves that this fate stuff was nonsense, that they can go on another path if they choose to combat the feelings within them that cause them to take the decisions that renew these cycles. As if it was really true, him and Sasuke would never have been able to see eye-to-eye and understand one another, seeing no other way out other than to eliminate each other.
Yoo actually goddess response but zetsu and kaguya were still ass😂😂 I like your explanation
Don't forget that Jiraiya was asked to be Naruto's godfather. So technically, one COULD say Jiraiya already had a potential student in mind when Minato asked him to, but that's just headcanon.
"ret-incarnation" -- missed opportunity.
lol
Is very cool how you made some of your videos about things I never paid attention to while watching Naruto, or things i don't see other people talking about. Keep up the good work, man; love your channel.
Thank you!
These reincarnations thing paved the way to introduce kaguya later on
I actually have a theory with this. We all joke about Naruto’s talk no jutsu throughout the series but I actually think this is an ability Naruto inherited from Asura. Every reincarnation of Asura, including Asura himself, has used talk no jutsu on people before so this makes me wonder if every reincarnation is just really convincing or if their speeches are actually a jutsu that they use unconsciously. I think that talk no Justu is actually a genjutsu that Asura inherited from the sage of the six paths and has passed it down to every one of his reincarnations. I call it: Talk no Genjutsu 🗣️
It's like Naruto isn't even Naruto anymore, he's a whole different person from another era.
It where climax of the war arc thing change.
So basically their fight became a jojo's reference
You know the asura backstory by itself is pretty good, showing how even if you are born to the literal god of shinobi hself you arent liekly to inherent his natural talent, but if you work hard you can reach that potential.its just the reincarnation that ruins it because now naruto was never gonna go down the dark path despite so many like him that did
I thought they retconned that retcon right before the final battle when Naruto told Hagaromo that him and sasuke were not the reincarnation of His sons.
I would've loved it if the reincarnations of Indra were the only Uchiha's capable of using the Susanoo. Like the Avatar and the Avatar state.
I was wondering if Naruto(the show) was trying to copy Avatar the last Airbender ?😂
@kevinmcwilliams2281 Even if that was the case it is handled so poorly. Aang being the avatar made sense. Mechanically it was established in world why the avatar is a thing and that ties directly into the plot: mastering all four elements to defeat the Fire lord and bring balance back to the world.
Here, it’s Kishimoto forcing this stuff for the sake of a parallel aka connect it lore. A square peg in a round hole. It doesn’t work.
The last airbender didn’t make the concept of reincarnations
@@mafiagrim But it made sense why the reincarnations happen. The cycle of the four elements and how their past lives and experience translate with the avatar state.
So I agree with you that reincarnations aren’t exclusive to last Airbender. It’s just consistent within itself.
Doubt it
No way. Naruto is older
Idk if this would work, but I think it would've been cool if the demigod naruto is reincarnation of was meant to be evil, and the one for sasuke was meant to be good, but because of how each character grew throughout the series their paths switched.
Yea all it did was make Naruto out to be hypocrite. "You can do anything if you never give up" or if you have 9 tails Asura hagoromo and on top of that your own OVERPOWERED UZUMAKI Chakra and to boot PLOT ARMOR. For Sasuke it wasn't that bad but they glazed tf outta Naruto a bit TOO MUCH
I dont disagree that Naruto getting super powerups is bad writing, but I think narratively Naruto the character made huge leaps in growth on his own even with his all his plot armor. He accepted himself at the waterfall of truth, he became friends with the nine tailed fox the literal embodiment of hatred, he became the pillar of Gara's convictions and brought the forces of the Shinobi alliance together, and he never gave up on his friend who understood him the most. If only Kaguya didnt exist though....
You gotta re read if you really think this😂
@ I mean I dont really watch/read Naruto to see the characters fight for spectacle. Naruto Shippuden asks the question of what to do with the cycle of hatred. I think Naruto and Sasuke make a lot of character growth and find their own answers to that question. To be honest, Sasuke is a much more dynamic character than Naruto. From a writer's perspective, Sasuke is objectively a better main character since he goes through the greatest changes throughout the series. Naruto however, stays consistent for a majority of the series and reaches the best conclusion to the main theme's question. Literally at the waterfall of truth where Naruto has to confront his own inner hatred, he comes to the conclusion that in order to end the cycle of hatred, one must first accept and understand oneself. Next, he goes right into not only taming, but befriending Kurama (In OG Naruto, Kurama was believed to be a manifestation of hatred. In shippuden, through Naruto we learn that not only is Kurama a tsundere, but all the other tailed beasts have names and personalities as well.) In every instance where people reference Naruto using talk no Jutsu, its not just a plot point, its a statement on the overall theme of the entire show. Reincarnation or not, Naruto make great growth!
DygoKnight in big 2025 🤣🤣🤣
Naruto hardworked to not get consumed darkness, but destiny and reincarnation of hero throws away everything
Lol Naruto would've died many times over if it weren't for 9 tails. Heck without 9 tails, hes just an orphan kid. Would'nt be hated, would'nt be special and wouldn't even make it past Neji. Naruto didn't work hard a day in his life. If he did then everyone did. 9 tails just gave Naruto his power on a platter after it was beaten and had its chakra forcefully removed. The reincarnation hardly ruined what was already based on nonsense.
Sasuke is a bit different and was actually nerfed his whole life. Hes the only reincarnate of Indra that we know of that didnt awaken full susanoo with only MS. Naruto would've been long unalived if Sasuke was actually a indra reincarnate. Still not ruined as much though.
The whole prophecy story is so lame because Naruto was all about defying prophecy and accepting the hand you were dealt. Neji was right 😔
I like to think that the story of Naruto was more so a story of dealing with hatred head on and ending the cycle that entrapped the generation that came before you.
Are you dumb? Naruto saving sasuke was denying fate
If Naruto and Sasuke are reincarnations, then I'm the reincarnation of Abraham Lincoln. 🎩
Replace Abraham Lincoln with "insert historical spammer"
There was no retcon.
Kakashi in chapter 234 says in the valley of the end that they're the same as Hashirama and Madara, in that same chapter we're introduced to Zetsu
Kakashi literally says "As long as they live *the cycle* will continue" in the chapter were Zetsu (Kaguya's will) is introduced
He doesn't say that, he says it's ironic they fought there. Nothing indicates they were reincarnation of demigods
@@DygoKnight He literally says "As long as they live *the cycle* will continue" in the chapter were Zetsu (Kaguya's will) is introduced
@@NumidianKing fanboys trying to pretend Naruto has no retcones
@@NumidianKing and how does Kakashi know that they are reincarnations of the 2 sons? maybe he just thinks that the cycle refers to Uchiha clan black sheep vs Senju/Uzumaki individual..
@@DygoKnightnah this video is straight cap. You can’t do than kishimoto even in yours dreams
People really overestimate them being Incarnations (Which they are, if they were REincarnations, they'd literally just be exact copies of Indra and Ashura)
A. Being Incarnations didnt give them anything, sans the SO6P giving them SO6P powers all it would've done it caused them to fight.
B. Kinda similar to the first point being a reincarnation along with the other stuff naruto has (Being an Uzumaki, Son of the 4th & Kurama's Jinchūriki) didnt mean he was destined for greatness, one out of those things wouldve had worse causes if Kishi didn't, respectfully, suck at word building (Naruto being actively hunted anytime he was out of the leaf for being an Uzumaki) and did have partial issues, in conjuctions with being Kurama's Jinchūriki (Large chakra Reserves = Bad starting Chakra control), So Naruto wasn't destined for greatness thus negating the Hard Work beats Talent trope, he had POTENTIAL for greatness (which he accomplished through, guess what? Hard work).
I don’t think it really “ruins” everything but it makes the cycle of hatred a metaphor when it doesn’t need to. A seemingly endless cycle where people are destined to hate and seek to destroy eachother for circumstances that they did not choose but nonetheless perpetuate.
Everybody in this comments is writing an essay 😂
true, all you said is true and this reincarnation bs made naruto worse, there were some good points after the pain arc, but it was downhill from there and fell off a cliff with the war arc. kishimoto dropped the ball with the kagura/sage of six paths bs....
Put kagura in war arc is very bad idea cuz war arc Madara is the antagonist for so long and all of a sudden he replace to kagura by black zetsu despite Madara is the main target need to defeat but change target to someone else. Kishimoto should put her in movie or spin off to know of her and her people which make totally sense cuz in war arc it Madara the purpose of that arc.
THIS is the worst retcon of the entire series, IMO. Not Otsutsukis or Zetsu.
Bro all of that sucks😂😂😂😊
YEEEES! I would've preferred Madara, Hashirma and Indra and Ashra to just be COMPARED to Naruto and Sasuke, not literal reincarnations
I'm tired of people saying Naruto isn't talented. He Mastered the Shadow clone Jutsu in a few hours, the Rasengan in a week and then create the most powerful Wind Style Jutsu of all time.
One Piece does it a bit better as it being inherited will, so essentially just people that have similar or the same desires but totally still their own person. Which make sense and is better because many people share the same desire. So If it was more symbolic than literal chakra reincarnation. It would be better. Since Hagaromo gave them the chakra anyway. They didn't need to be reincarnates anyway. Just have Hagaromo give them Indra and Ashuras Chakra because they are similar to them, and mor eimportantly, to stop Madara/Kaguya
I see it more as a cookie cutter situation. Being the reincarnation of either Ashura or Indra makes a distinct mold on your body and soul. Be it chocolate chip or gingerbread it still has a similar appearance to the original. I feel that it also opens a unique path to power that fits the lore of the character. Sasuke is strongest or gets stronger when he fights for himself. While Naruto is strongest or gets stronger when he fights for others. The only way to break that set loop is to accept the other sides way as valid and to meet somewhere in the middle.
To be fair to Madara, that was the first time he was fighting with hashiramas dna in him. That would explain why he’s stronger than before. He took hashiramas flesh and died, and grafted it on his body later.
If you ask the Reddit page this isn’t a retcon because it was teased and never stated they weren’t going to be gods at the end of the series , but nah the story didn’t start with that as the goal it’s a retcon
I'm not convinced them having the same chakra while they're both alive is much of a stretch. It's not like there's limited chakra overall. Yeah, you can run out of chakra, but you can still produce more. Aka there's enough to go around
I always get Indra and Ashura confused. Anyways,Yeah this whole Naruto is Indra and Sasuke is Ashura is so confusing,When I made my lil' sis watch Naruto. I skipped anything Otsutsuki related and when we reached Juubidara,I skipped to the final fight after Guy lost. She still enjoyed it just as much as I enjoyed it
Isn't Naruto Ashura and Sasuke Indra? I'm also confused now.
@secoreymcfarquhar9551
Damn it,I did it again
It’s so funny people still talking about this in 2025. Hated that whole reincarnation stuff along with that chosen one bullcrap.
Izuna and Kawarama Senju should have been the previous reincarnations, Kishi could of wrote the curse was so strong in that era that they both died before meeting, Madara and Hashi should just be their own characters.
Obito and Kakashi were also supposed to be the reincarnations, but they didn't live up to their potential. My head canon lol.
And ultimately, what does it all mean now that they defied fate? What does their relevance as reincarnations really do for them that just being some of the strongest for one reason or another due to clan benefits and training doesn't get across? It majorly makes their own inability to understand each other come off a lot cheaper when it seems to imply they were just destined to be this way instead of coming to their own conclusions based on the things they have learned since then.
Come to think of it, the souls can split - we see it by how Orochimaru did it with his cursed seals, or how Hagoromo did steal the soul of his hands to the Grim Reaper
Honestly, it would've been cooler if Indra and Ashura just somehow came back and fought in the war against SOSP Madara/Kaguya alongside Naruto and Sasuke. Knowing Kishimoto, he could asspull some plot device to resurrect them. He was also complaining that he didn't know how to end Madara for good, well now you do. We could've potentially see Indra with rinnegan at some point with SOSP or Ashura with Rinnegan alongside his SOSP (Really going into What If territory but fuck it, it's cool) Basically, resurrect the two Demi-Gods and give them some awesome new powers/powerups and Madara gets buttfucked into Kaguya's dimension where she'll get pounded by both of them while Sasuke and Naruto can be backup.
I think it would be interesting if somebody made a weaker version of reaper death seal where they seal only a single part of the body and this could be a interesting way to defeat the otsosuki by sealing parts of there body over a fight
To be honest I don't think the reincarnation episode ruined Naruto, it just kind of cheapened everything Naruto had done in the story cause we could no longer see it as hard work but as the fact he was the reincarnation of the literal son of a god
Naruto theme was not hard work most of his strength came from the 9 tails and bonds. He's not even the actual reincarnation, he just has their chakra attached to him and that doesn't even make him strong.
@@plantcrone9662 went from getting abused by Madara, to, after activating that chacra, be in the same lvl. And he saves Guy with a tap. What hardwork was there? You can rewach, after Guy ends his fight XDDDDD.
The theme is the cycle of hatred. So my problem is that it's really on the nose
Reminds me of the last episode of Jojo part 5 with the Rolling Stone. It retroactively adds a prophesy that says what characters were going to die, and I felt like it didn't really add anything. Except maybe the fact that one of the characters knew that he and some of the other characters were going to die, but it didn't change what he was going to do. Which I guess makes him seem brave or something, but at the same time it makes him seem callous about his companions dying. And it doesn't help that I expected more falling action instead of an episode that was just a flashback, and it made it seem like the show ends abruptly to me.
Rolling stones is meant to say about fate in Jojo that it can't be altered and we are all slaves to fate❤❤
In theory if they wanted to make them as semi deity I would have preferred if they had done something like : madaras brother was the one that was suposed to be the chosen one in theory but at his death when madara who was suposed to be the itachi of that cycle he took his eyes and suposedly it give them their power like sasuke was getting the power from itachi.
They wouldn't need to be in an eternal conflict.
More like they are the two balancing the world from each side.
Madara would be more of the one who should never have been allowed to have the power.
Shippuden has a whole different theme than OG Naruto that’s why OG is better.
Id like to think that in the naruto universe a soul has an essence that is transfered. So then, the soul is like a liminal body, like in the hiruzen fight. It could multiply from the essence but its not taking away, just creating from the same source material. Cause if u dont think of it that way, then it doesnt male sense at all, at least in my part
When Madara and hasarmai died and Naruto and Sasuke got the souls of the sons. When Madara and lord first came back with edo tensi they had their souls not the sons of the sage of six paths anymore. Just them
Based on some of the language you use I'm guessing you have some sort of experience in biblical hermeneutics and or world religions. I'm totally guessing but words such as "echos" when referring to types of prophecy are the same I learned in seminary. Anyway, great video!
The thing is, if sasuke and madara are the same spirit, how the hell are they both incarnated at the same time? I think Kishimoto doesn't understand reincarnation.
Y'ALL UNDERSTANDING REINCARNATION IN YOUR WESTERN MIND.
In japanese folklore, reincarnation does NOT mean is exactly the same soul. The new soul is conected to the past lives, but the soul is not one and only. It's the same as Kagoma and Kikyo in Inuyasha.
Nah the worst part is not that Naruto lost his cred, the worst part is that we paused the story and gave Naruto and Sasuke a final power up so they could fight a worthless final villain like Kaguya.
Naruto and hashirama where born powerful while asura had no potential until he got a ninshu from his father which created wood style and all the other crazy powers asura has.
Determinism for most medias is horrible. In fact, the media around RESISTING fate is much more popular and easy to appreciate as a story. Whenever your characters are not active agents in their own stories, the moment X happens because it's PURELY destiny, that's never a good idea. Even Neo in the matrix slowly had to believe in himself over time, and Neo slowly began to trust in Morpheus' vision earlier, but the prophecy the Oracle sought was never portrayed as a certain outcome that we all expected.
Naruto and sasuke were already horrible so slapping the reincarnation thing on doesnt mind at all
You do have an issue with how powerful they became. One of your complaints was how Madara and Hashirama were so strong. The answer is the main characters were just that strong.
Paragraph I like the reincarnation trope, to me it doesn't negatively affect the story or naruto which is about over coming hatred through appreciating the humanity in others and having the drive or guts to circumvent obstacles (gaining the respect of others), you'll find this from episode one. I only wish naruto/sasuke was the reincarnation of Asura/indras spirit, and to justify how they can be alive at the same time as their predecessors Hashirama/Madara, I'd use occult understandings of how spirits (due to being higher dimensional sentient energy) can be in two places at once. Chakra in naruto has been established to carry on after death, clinging to the living as found in the cases of karura (gaaras mom) and obito. Also reincarnation doesn't necessarily create predeterminism, if you and another have conflicting values and exist in the same environment, you are going to clash naturally. If an Asura or Indra reincarnate sat on their butts all day, they would accomplish nothing (just as anyone with potential for greatness does not work hard or become conlmplacent will achieve nothing). And naruto being all that he is doesn't prove Neji COMPLETELY right, lets be real we all knew naruto would be hokage from the get-go, neji's mistake was him being an arrogant hypocritcal know it all like he's god or the author of the story, he said those who we victors or hokage were born genius prodigies, ignoring the possibility that those who are late bloomers, or diligent could be serious contenders. Furthermore he said people should accept their destiny yet he tried to strike hinata down who according to his philosophy is his rightful superior he must defer to. (People confuse being a nameless hack for being an underdog, not every nameless hack is and underdog and not every underdog is nameless hack)
How could Sasuke and Madara exist at the same time ?
I don't think this is classified as retcon more so a plot twist?
The reincarnation really was badly executed but it doesn't undermine anyone's character, it just adds a bit of unnecessary lore to the characters. It was stated by Hagoromo himself that Indra and Ashura chose Naruto and Sasuke because of their beliefs and way of living, which means they weren't born as their reincarnates, they were chose to be that after Indra and Ashura's souls watched them living their lives for some amount of time from the other side or whatever (since Kishimoto didn't even try to explain that part). And then again, if destiny really was such a strong thing in the series, Naruto and Sasuke would've killed each other in battle instead of Naruto breaking the cycle and actually saving Sasuke by being himself. So if anything, Naruto is actually better than Ashura ever was and he has its own merit on that alongside everything else he ever accomplished. In the end, becoming Ashura's reincarnate was more of some sort of "reward" or a symbol of Ashura's faith on him, passing him a big responsability that he believes Naruto is fit to carry, which is his will, all because Naruto proved himself worthy. And the same goes for Sasuke, regarding Indra's will, of course, but Naruto was actually the more special one for winning in a way that breaks the cycle.