Holy shit, I've been using null-ls for 8 months. I started my neovim journey with it. Now I'm gonna have to change my config file, I was looking forward to going a month without changing it.
you wont have to change for some time but there will be a point you will have to, plus there is a community edition i am sure coming out shortly, but they will probably invert the process and make it easier
I literally found out about it today when trying to configure prettier. Being happy to find a solution, I spend at least an hour on understanding what it does and putting it my config. Fuck my life
If I remain ignorant of what null-ls does, I will be able to continue not to care. I assume null-ls is like ls, but it doesn't print out anything. Sounds great.
@@ThePrimeTimeagen Sounds like a much larger and more useful tool than what it sounds like. i just thought it was just a primitive declaration on acid. did something with null. That seems like a critical thing to need if one uses it. edit....... sounds like too much of a time / work investment for a small unknown codebase - later
Very sad to hear. Honestly always wondered how such plug-in could exist, just crazy. Hope the maintainer will take some time for himself and his family. Let’s hope this will be an opportunity to improve some of the issues mentioned by the author and create something even greater!
I absolutely agree, as the author of crates.nvim, which supports code actions via null-ls, the one thing I would appreciate would be a builtin `vim.actions` api like `vim.diagnostics`. It could be lazy like lsp actions, where the source registers a callback and then the client asks for actions at a position in the code, instead of the source preemptively pushing actions like in null-ls.
On the last comment about haskell: Technically even computation is a side effect, so unless you're driving haskell's system somehow it would not even compute/heat the room.
How dos VSCode handles it? Since it's like one plugin per language I'm assuming each plugin handles everything from downloading the LSP to using it for auto complete, actions, formatting, linting and diagnostics. Why do we make it different in Neovim? Why do we try to make a general plugin that tries to work with all languages and their free-for-all actions? Can't we just install a plugin per language too?
I think the underlying issue is that despite how good LSP is, it is not a ‘complete’ tool and not IDE enough. Therefore you have to incorporate multiple tools to get a complete IDE experience. So as always, blame Microsoft😂
LazyVim is by FAR the best distro. I've built upwards of 10 of my own configs, tried Lunar, Evo, Chad (almost all of them). Lazy first of all is the only one that had keymappings that were a) expected and b) very close to my own personal config. Further TJ mentioned it but the problem with most distros is that they feel very "proprietary" in terms of how they extended / customized. It's like learning a whole other thing than nvim. LazyVim on the other hand feels very much the same approach I would take just building my own configuration and extending nvim. I don't think I will ever maintain my own base config again. LazyVim is what I would have done anyway if I was more versed in neovim. It's very good. Only small neg is the documentation is sparse in places.
There is like 2 file in LazyVim (util/init.lua, and core/lazy.lua) which kinda seems like magic -> We know what they do mostly but lots of small details i wouldnt be able to implement on my own setup Apart from that i agree it reads very well, and the import of plugins to overwrite the one in lazyvim/plugins + the keymaps make absolute sense But i keep having stuff that break even on fresh install (notify.nvim is basically red everytime i telescope anything or try to use leap.nvim..) so i think ill just end up dropping it and make like my own config heavily inspired by lazyvim plugin configs, one plugin a day, little by little rebuilding the wheel for the most part debugging issues right after you clone and expect everything to work out the box is painful
4:40 Is it really so special to build an editor? I could write one in a few weeks and it would be better than nano, right? Maybe I would just fork an existing minimalistic Editor in Rust and add new features into it, when I need some.
I don't use Null-ls , but I can understand TJs Point. At some point, there must be a line. Vim has so many configurations (I would say almost as many, as there are users). The more automation you provide to the user, the less they will understand why some things simply don't work. Vim Distros like NvChad and LunaVim make it even worse, because now they bring in people who don't even know how to configure it. (In a Sence they abstract away the configuration, etc...) Having a config to jump of off, is nice, but simply providing a repo with a base configuration is not helping to much IMO I honestly love your "Zero to LSP" VIdeo and have recommended it to a lot of people, who asked "How do I use Vim as my main editor". It: - Is quick - easy to follow - gives a base understanding on how NeoVim is configured - shows how to migrate old VimRC configs to Lua - shows all the essential plugins a developer needs to get started We need more means to educate users on how to configure it, instead of doing the configuration for people.
Time to migrate from null-ls, this situation sucks. I can try running raw Mason, but sometimes it doesn't work at all for certain code actions or linters.
null-ls made it super easy to install new language servers, like you're in a lua file and you can quickly install a lua language server (kinda like the bottom right prompt in vs code saying "do you wanna install lua plugin x for this file?").
16:00 You can easily override the default cmd in mason, the only thing to keep in mind it's propably that you have to use absolute path. Anyway, you can call mason_lspconfig.setup_handlres and there define handler for each server even if it's autoinstalled
@@ThePrimeTimeagen I actually ran into this with ocaml AND rust. I'm using lazyvim and it lets me set `mason = false` for each lsp server, and then lspconfig will just use the one from path. But for `mason-lspconfig` you should be able to do `automatic_installation = { exclude = { "ocamllsp" } }`
I just can't get used to vim as an editor. I make too many typos, and constantly having to switch modes does far more damage to my productivity than anything vim does to improve it.
The main problem is just that escape is too far away on modern keyboards. On the keyboard vi was created on, escape was where modern keyboards put caps lock, so if you can swap those it's a lot nicer to use.
@@MichaelLeonard when coding, I use it for enums, literals and macros. But outside of that, I also use it when I'm trying to emphasize something or when I'm typing in my password and want to be certain that I'm not going to mess up the capitalization.
@@bitskit3476 I mean I know what caps lock does, but shift does essentially the same thing while giving you more precise control. I've had caps lock mapped to the control key for years, always a fun surprise when I hit caps lock on someone else's computer. If typos are common and you regularly use caps lock instead of shift I'm going to take a guess that your typing skills are not at a point where Vim would be any sort of advantage. I don't mean that as a dig or anything. You might instead get more benefit in focused improvement of your typing accuracy and speed before worrying too much about what editor you are using. IMO it's just an annoyance to have to take my hand off the keyboard to use the mouse, after using Vim for a while you shouldn't even have to consciously think about what mode it is in (hint: it should always be in normal mode unless you are actively typing) or how to best move the cursor from one spot to another. But if you're still struggling with touch typing, you are fighting an uphill battle.
For the priority issue instead of the z-index issue wouldn't you just implement a graph tree like say the render pipeline from bevy, where a plugin can just say "before-X" and allow transition events etc
I respect PDE instead of an IDE, but I use nvim because its so low on resources. Would be nice if any of these IDEs ambitions of neovim were really good. Kickstart is the only one I've tried that's actually the closest to just work out of the box, good custom motions and only need a little tinkering. All the others always gives one little error once you do this specific little thing. They all want to be vscode instead of making a really good vim experience. Sadly I often get overwhelmed trying to learn what nvim can do and how to do it do become one of those PDE masters.
I've had plenty of issues where project A says it's an issue for project B and they say it's for project C and they say it's for project B then they say it's for project A and everyone insists they won't work on it. Projects need to take ownership of anything and everything reported to them and facilitate a three-way or four-way call, passing(a hot transfer) the user along so that a solution can be reached.
That would be really awesome. Knowing folke the implementation would be very good He's already maintaining so many repos/plugins though, so I'm worried he would burn out
Still trying to understand what made null-ls great. Not a light. Just geniune ignorance. Is it ease of integrating autoformat? I don't mind doing the autocmd stuff
How to become like TJ , rather like what sort of exeperience goes into building something like this. The more I spend time writing APIs and buliding systems, the more bored I get, because after sometime its like being really good at finding points of failure. Something like ruclips.net/video/MZytZW_k-9Y/видео.html And I want to be able to know what I don't know about building such things. Like I have build super simple text editor 1 time. And I was exhausted without much proper guidelines. I would love to work on neovim core. Atleast in the begging I could do this all day :D
I've personally haven't found a use for null-ls in a while, I see a lot of the distros use it though. I did look at using it in the early days to get eslint working, but there is a lsp for that now. For formatting there is formatter.nvim which works great.
![KAYTRANADA - Witchy (feat. Childish Gambino) [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/jGK3YVmGZ3Y/mqdefault.jpg)
I thought it was "null-is" and it was an NPM package that checks if something is null or not
you should tweet that
That's what I thought when I saw the title 😅
There probably is
There actually is "is-null"...
Hmm time for the is-null-ls
rest in peace null-ls. What an absolute beast of a plugin.
agreed
Damn, saddened to hear this. Thanks for all your hard work mr. Alvarez!!
agreed
Holy shit, I've been using null-ls for 8 months. I started my neovim journey with it. Now I'm gonna have to change my config file, I was looking forward to going a month without changing it.
you wont have to change for some time
but there will be a point you will have to, plus there is a community edition i am sure coming out shortly, but they will probably invert the process and make it easier
I literally found out about it today when trying to configure prettier. Being happy to find a solution, I spend at least an hour on understanding what it does and putting it my config.
Fuck my life
fml
If I remain ignorant of what null-ls does, I will be able to continue not to care. I assume null-ls is like ls, but it doesn't print out anything. Sounds great.
it integrates all the different linters / formatters for neovim into a singular lsp
@@ThePrimeTimeagen That sounds like difficult programming. I will crawl back to the github hole and play with my statistics algorithms.
@@ThePrimeTimeagen Sounds like a much larger and more useful tool than what it sounds like.
i just thought it was just a primitive declaration on acid. did something with null.
That seems like a critical thing to need if one uses it.
edit.......
sounds like too much of a time / work investment for a small unknown codebase - later
Gigachad
Very sad to hear. Honestly always wondered how such plug-in could exist, just crazy. Hope the maintainer will take some time for himself and his family.
Let’s hope this will be an opportunity to improve some of the issues mentioned by the author and create something even greater!
I never expected such a wide coverage on a niche topic like this. Awesome job!!
I absolutely agree, as the author of crates.nvim, which supports code actions via null-ls, the one thing I would appreciate would be a builtin `vim.actions` api like `vim.diagnostics`. It could be lazy like lsp actions, where the source registers a callback and then the client asks for actions at a position in the code, instead of the source preemptively pushing actions like in null-ls.
Love your work btw
I use crates.nvim daily. Thank you!
The community doesn't show too much love ...sometimes.
Almost always this is an inherent problem with open source software
On the last comment about haskell: Technically even computation is a side effect, so unless you're driving haskell's system somehow it would not even compute/heat the room.
Not if the computation creates a new reality
How dos VSCode handles it? Since it's like one plugin per language I'm assuming each plugin handles everything from downloading the LSP to using it for auto complete, actions, formatting, linting and diagnostics. Why do we make it different in Neovim? Why do we try to make a general plugin that tries to work with all languages and their free-for-all actions? Can't we just install a plugin per language too?
"Oh no, i have to install multiple plugins instead of one"
wooh, i thought this was clickbait for a moment 😭
no... its just real
This really reminds me of Rich talking about svelte. Everyone has great ideas but you really have to just say no
agreed
Let Tom re-write Neovim LSP in JDSL, hes a super genius!
AI Teej makes an appearance! Also super sad about losing null-ls. :(
TJ says "like" counter: 10^26
This made me so sad that I open the VSC for 5s.
pour one out for null-ls
Poor Haskell didn't deserve that.
Haskell has never done anybody wrong, in fact, it's never done anything ever.
Just wait a bit, It's quite lazy.
I missed one of the "(l|i)s" and for a split-second I was like: what, the primitive is getting removed?
I think the underlying issue is that despite how good LSP is, it is not a ‘complete’ tool and not IDE enough. Therefore you have to incorporate multiple tools to get a complete IDE experience. So as always, blame Microsoft😂
"Especially since I'm not using Neovim as my primary editor" Based and enlightened pilled
if not neovim, what is he using??? 😅
Dang. Null-ls was great, I'll miss it.
LazyVim is by FAR the best distro. I've built upwards of 10 of my own configs, tried Lunar, Evo, Chad (almost all of them). Lazy first of all is the only one that had keymappings that were a) expected and b) very close to my own personal config. Further TJ mentioned it but the problem with most distros is that they feel very "proprietary" in terms of how they extended / customized. It's like learning a whole other thing than nvim. LazyVim on the other hand feels very much the same approach I would take just building my own configuration and extending nvim. I don't think I will ever maintain my own base config again. LazyVim is what I would have done anyway if I was more versed in neovim. It's very good. Only small neg is the documentation is sparse in places.
There is like 2 file in LazyVim (util/init.lua, and core/lazy.lua) which kinda seems like magic -> We know what they do mostly but lots of small details i wouldnt be able to implement on my own setup
Apart from that i agree it reads very well, and the import of plugins to overwrite the one in lazyvim/plugins + the keymaps make absolute sense
But i keep having stuff that break even on fresh install (notify.nvim is basically red everytime i telescope anything or try to use leap.nvim..) so i think ill just end up dropping it and make like my own config heavily inspired by lazyvim plugin configs, one plugin a day, little by little rebuilding the wheel for the most part
debugging issues right after you clone and expect everything to work out the box is painful
@@antoineleduc7611 I've never heard about an issue with notify.nvim. Would be great if you could report an issue to the LazyVim repo with more details
Yes keep dropping them bangers
The bangeragen 🔥
none-ls is here!
Why does Teej sound like an AI trained on Valley Girl accent.
wut
You are aware that "valley girl accent" is just the California accent, right?
@@SimonBuchanNz yeah, but I'm from the Midwest and live there still haha
@@teej_dv that's the AI part, I assume
@@SimonBuchanNz Maybe it's my non-American ears that convert all American accents to Cali one.
What an outstanding guy.
i use haskell btw
4:40 Is it really so special to build an editor? I could write one in a few weeks and it would be better than nano, right?
Maybe I would just fork an existing minimalistic Editor in Rust and add new features into it, when I need some.
Welp, I finally got around to setting up null-ls Last week...
Amazing conversation
Primes face be like
¦->{
I don't use Null-ls , but I can understand TJs Point.
At some point, there must be a line. Vim has so many configurations (I would say almost as many, as there are users).
The more automation you provide to the user, the less they will understand why some things simply don't work.
Vim Distros like NvChad and LunaVim make it even worse, because now they bring in people who don't even know how to configure it.
(In a Sence they abstract away the configuration, etc...)
Having a config to jump of off, is nice, but simply providing a repo with a base configuration is not helping to much IMO
I honestly love your "Zero to LSP" VIdeo and have recommended it to a lot of people, who asked "How do I use Vim as my main editor".
It:
- Is quick
- easy to follow
- gives a base understanding on how NeoVim is configured
- shows how to migrate old VimRC configs to Lua
- shows all the essential plugins a developer needs to get started
We need more means to educate users on how to configure it, instead of doing the configuration for people.
Damn I really need to watch a mason tutorial. I still only use the lsp.
Man, just look at the issues and PRs below the announcement that references this and the amount of issues about switching away.
Are you related to dr Disrespect
Time to migrate from null-ls, this situation sucks. I can try running raw Mason, but sometimes it doesn't work at all for certain code actions or linters.
In point 2, I have the same problems with iron.nvim and I'm actually considering the same route, deprecating and archiving it.
Oh no don’t tell me I’ll have to move to emacs
interesting never heard of kickstart.
I was so happy that null is being retired just to turn sad instead. Man should I do more sleep.
Lets contributing!!
im not a neovim guy, what did the plugin do?
null-ls made it super easy to install new language servers, like you're in a lua file and you can quickly install a lua language server (kinda like the bottom right prompt in vs code saying "do you wanna install lua plugin x for this file?").
@@Aaku13no it didn't. Null LS made it possible to use extern linters and stuff like there were LSPs
You were supposed to pivot and your hand would still be ok.
TJ's skin looks so nice! Prime's mustache looks so manly! Two handsome gents for sure!
I’m going to fork it and rename it undefined-ls or undefined-ls-la.
16:00 You can easily override the default cmd in mason, the only thing to keep in mind it's propably that you have to use absolute path. Anyway, you can call mason_lspconfig.setup_handlres and there define handler for each server even if it's autoinstalled
Also, if you do not install formatter via Mason, it fallback to global path. I had to check this once rustfmt was labeled as installed via rustup
i'll have to find this :)
@@ThePrimeTimeagen I actually ran into this with ocaml AND rust. I'm using lazyvim and it lets me set `mason = false` for each lsp server, and then lspconfig will just use the one from path. But for `mason-lspconfig` you should be able to do `automatic_installation = { exclude = { "ocamllsp" } }`
Sound Level > /dev/null
soo what was the editor he switched to?
It's so sad that null-ls died of ligma
I just can't get used to vim as an editor. I make too many typos, and constantly having to switch modes does far more damage to my productivity than anything vim does to improve it.
The main problem is just that escape is too far away on modern keyboards. On the keyboard vi was created on, escape was where modern keyboards put caps lock, so if you can swap those it's a lot nicer to use.
@@SimonBuchanNz I use caps lock a lot though.
@@bitskit3476why
@@MichaelLeonard when coding, I use it for enums, literals and macros. But outside of that, I also use it when I'm trying to emphasize something or when I'm typing in my password and want to be certain that I'm not going to mess up the capitalization.
@@bitskit3476 I mean I know what caps lock does, but shift does essentially the same thing while giving you more precise control.
I've had caps lock mapped to the control key for years, always a fun surprise when I hit caps lock on someone else's computer.
If typos are common and you regularly use caps lock instead of shift I'm going to take a guess that your typing skills are not at a point where Vim would be any sort of advantage. I don't mean that as a dig or anything.
You might instead get more benefit in focused improvement of your typing accuracy and speed before worrying too much about what editor you are using.
IMO it's just an annoyance to have to take my hand off the keyboard to use the mouse, after using Vim for a while you shouldn't even have to consciously think about what mode it is in (hint: it should always be in normal mode unless you are actively typing) or how to best move the cursor from one spot to another. But if you're still struggling with touch typing, you are fighting an uphill battle.
For the priority issue instead of the z-index issue wouldn't you just implement a graph tree like say the render pipeline from bevy, where a plugin can just say "before-X" and allow transition events etc
I respect PDE instead of an IDE, but I use nvim because its so low on resources. Would be nice if any of these IDEs ambitions of neovim were really good.
Kickstart is the only one I've tried that's actually the closest to just work out of the box, good custom motions and only need a little tinkering. All the others always gives one little error once you do this specific little thing. They all want to be vscode instead of making a really good vim experience.
Sadly I often get overwhelmed trying to learn what nvim can do and how to do it do become one of those PDE masters.
I’m so tired of neovim (an plugin) updates. I’m happy with the current feature set, please stop breaking my editor
I've had plenty of issues where project A says it's an issue for project B and they say it's for project C and they say it's for project B then they say it's for project A and everyone insists they won't work on it. Projects need to take ownership of anything and everything reported to them and facilitate a three-way or four-way call, passing(a hot transfer) the user along so that a solution can be reached.
We also need to standardize the way issues are reported, it's no good to have to super search several issue databases looking for an existing issue.
we need neovim as a service
I just need someway to integrate it into my iAss solution
you mean naas
I hope folke takes charge in the next gen null-ls
That would be really awesome. Knowing folke the implementation would be very good
He's already maintaining so many repos/plugins though, so I'm worried he would burn out
So that's why my null-ls failed to config
Probably not, it's still working for me. Probably ~/.local/ holds something on my system... Mason-null-ls doing the hard job for me :D
@@darukutsu still can't figure out how to configure null-ls. For some reason it just won't work
@@bigl9527 i had problems with python formatters some like black, blue don't work but bash and autopep8 do. I use LSP in programming languages.
I wonder what he uses instead of nvim
Probably emacs since there isn't better option.
@@darukutsu eMacs > nvim?
@@aarondanen3150 no :D i meant that apart from nvim and emacs there isn't better option
@@darukutsu bet homie uses ed
Still trying to understand what made null-ls great. Not a light. Just geniune ignorance. Is it ease of integrating autoformat? I don't mind doing the autocmd stuff
Not a slight*
Just saying because I think I am definitely missing something here. Obvious noob
It connected many tools to the built-in LSP api stuff
Lol I installed null-Ls on Monday
lmao TheHaskellLOLagen 🤣🤣🤣
going foss is a mistake for any developer , am not doing shit if am not getting paid for it
We understand it was an accident Prime...
Blink twice if you need help
NOOOO
The jannies do it for free!
Give folke 3 days. When lazy format.
Firstagen
How to become like TJ , rather like what sort of exeperience goes into building something like this.
The more I spend time writing APIs and buliding systems, the more bored I get, because after sometime its like being really good at finding points of failure.
Something like ruclips.net/video/MZytZW_k-9Y/видео.html
And I want to be able to know what I don't know about building such things. Like I have build super simple text editor 1 time. And I was exhausted without much proper guidelines.
I would love to work on neovim core. Atleast in the begging I could do this all day :D
Roseh
I use Vscode, by the way XD
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
first
docs exist to not be read 💀
if you're being a victim of home abuse and are too afraid to come out and say it, lick your keyboard /s
The Neovim config is so try hard. I prefer standard Vim config.
I've personally haven't found a use for null-ls in a while, I see a lot of the distros use it though. I did look at using it in the early days to get eslint working, but there is a lsp for that now. For formatting there is formatter.nvim which works great.
null-is: module.exports = require("is-null")
Come on, sombody's gotta do it!
It's Ls no is
Honestly, I hate to see a project like null-ls getting sunset like this but thank you and TJ for pointing me to kickstart.nvim