The Downfall of Gumwall Tires
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
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Skinwall vs. Gumwall Tires
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Pros and Cons
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Rotational Weight
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Solid video, dude! Thanks! I was on the fence about some skinwalls and had read about number of folks having long term issues with sidewall failures. This provided me all the perspective and insight I was looking for in this specific regard! Cheers!
I put Pasela Tourguard skinwalls on my road bike, The did look very nice... until I rode about 50 miles in the rain. The sidewalls were stained by streaks of aluminum that could never be removed. They still looked "OK", but not as nice as I would have liked. I kept them on for several years, and never had a problem with sidewall deterioration (I'm in the north suburbs of Chicago). I put a set of the same tires on my wife's bike about 15 years ago, and they still look great. She doesn't ride as much, and never in the rain. Neither of us had any flats with those tires.
Sidewall preservation tip: Rust-Oleum high gloss clear coat (3) on fresh new gumballs protect them from UV rays as well as dark grime and scuff marks.
Great subject. I agree on the durability issue but I am such a retro lover I can't give them up. I have skinwall on all my bikes.
do a video comparing all types of handlebars
Jose Leal yeah i would like that
word
Jose Leal too many types to adequately cover in a video without it being long. text format is the best for something like that
Please do
He made something close to it
The skinwall tire is wicked. First ride on them was a properly stored Schwinn 3 speed classic for 15+ yrs. Just added some air wiped them off and they and the tubes were good for a few weeks. I was also young so my weight could've had a lot to do with it lasting. Love you Skinwall
been running a 700x23C Kenda black wall tyres for a year more now, never had a puncture, good grip at dry, but really sketchy when it rains hard and road gets slippery. got a pinky length sized scratch that nearly exposes the metal bits, but it's good so far
I love the look of skinwall tires and recently just got some Maxxis Ardent skinwalls for my cross country mountain bike- the only problem is that they are single ply rubber, meaning that it uses the same softness rubber all over the tire and tread, making the center nobs roll slower and wear out quicker. Looks great and descends really well, but i can already see wear... BTW the sidewall is much more plush and forgiving, at least that i can tell.
P.S. Love your videos.
so you can fit these compass barlows on a standard 700c wheel set given you'll have fork clearance?
It was all the reviews I read on bursting sidewalls that stopped me from getting a set of Paselas. I was looking into Panaracer RiBMo blackwalls, but ultimately found a great deal on a pair of the new Schwalbe Marathon Supremes. These are pricey, but are hands-down the best tires I've ever used.
My favorite tires depend on which bike I am building or riding. I like skinwalls on older frames, fat round tires on 26" bikes, and colored tires/sidewalls that match my cables and/or seat color on my regular around town bikes. I like to get stocked up at the Balboa Park Velodrome swap meet where there are so many great deals (Happening on Nov. 6; 9am to 2pm). Gatorskins have given me good service on several bikes, and can be had at good prices.
Great content as always!
Nice to see u here bud ;)
I ride 23c continental grandsports but I want to change to a 28c from a different brand bc I've heard that continentals can be hard to fit to a rim?
Putting any silicone product on a bike tire is dangerous, it makes the tires slippery. Don't do it.
There is a difference between skinwall and gumwall tires. Skinwall tires are a light type of tire on which if you look close you can see the thread make up of the casing. These sidewalls more resemble cloth than rubber and are generally used to save weight and are generally a better quality tire than the cheaper gumwall. Gumwall tires are the one's that bubble up and fail if exposed to UV light or ozone, (which is also produced by some electric motors, which is why storing a bike with gumwall tires, (or any tires), hear a furnace or blower is a bad idea).
Gumwall tires look like just that, gum, the sidewalls are made up of the casing and a soft, yellow rubber compound. These are the cheapest tires out there. They serve a purpose if you just want a cheap tire and if you put a lot of miles on a tire fast. They don't age well and don't offer many other benefits other than being cheap.
Skinwall tires do save weight, and most come in many different styles. Skinwalls can be any color, I tend to prefer black as they seem to last longer and show less age.
Personally, I've never liked the look of any yellow sidewall tire, they're just too hard to keep clean and they seem to age faster than black tires.
Anyone know where can get of 26x3.0 skin walled tires or should I just give up looking cause the don’t exist?
I have drop-down handle bars on my single-speed. Noticed that i don't use utilize them to their full potential. Thinking about getting some bullhorns for climbing hills. Thoughts?
Also, I love your videos! Best advice out there and very entertaining. Thank you
great video, learned a lot! Also i like how the text in your videos remind me of video games xD
i have gum wall tires on my tubi trispoke and on my rear 88 I would have never expected anything from them thanks for the awesome vid
I'm tire shopping for a vintage bike and you're the first guy to mention sun degradation. I live in Texas and we get our share of sun too. Something to consider but I still like that skinwall look.
Great info. Really appreciate the details!
My gum wall/skin wall tires on my bike are from 1965 and they are fine, they feel pretty new, thats how good they are, may need new innertubes
WTB Nanos! 40C!
I think it would be great if you did a video on some velodrome training/racing sessions in SD.
Interesting, didn't know a lot of the facts about those tires, thanks!
For my State 4130 fixed-gear, I am getting Maxxis Refuse. I am going up to 32c! :D Can't wait!
Gatorskins for life! That being said, if I had a period track frame I would rock the hell out of gum wa... skin wall tires.
Brandon Leitz me too.. I've only ever bought one pair, they last forever, into my third year and ALOT of miles.. and I've not had a single puncture, which I find mind blowing. Great tires
@@copalpagan2407 on the other hand, i got flats on my gator skinz pretty promptly and said eff this going tubeless.
I do admit tho, I commute in NYC
what psi do you run?
what crankset are you using?
I must admit that part of why I watch these videos is to see how long it takes me to realize which part of campus he's shooting on. (took my half the video to realize it was from the Health center)
What is a good blackwall tires?
how about tannus solid tires?
IMO, the benefit of the flexible casing on a skin wall is negligible with the lower pressures and wider tires we tend to run on CX fixed gears. If so, then the only reason to get them is the appearance. And I kinda like the look of black walls...
5000 sub special, roadie or fixie? how to know which bike is better too choose
Compass makes versions of its 'extralight' tires with black sidewalls if you're still interested in using their tires.
Great bike videos! I ride a Conti Touring Plus but I am a clydesdale. :)
Forte Metro St 700x35 Been riding them for over 2200 miles, no flat.
Hello to anyone who has owned skin wall tires, I'm considering buying a set but i want them to be durable. How long do they last usually?
+David Evans When I didn't maintain them, the skinwalls would burst after six months of sitting day in and day out in the San Diego sun.
They'll last just as long as regular tires as long as you maintain them. Sunlight dries out the skinwalls; use automotive interior wipes on the skinwalls about once every two months (at most), and you'll be golden.
Awesome videos!!!
Rotational weights double only when you are accelerating and slowing, not while going at the same exect speed. But it is pretty much impossible to keep the exact the same speed (ex. 21.6 kmph), it will fluctuate so it basicly is double weight.
GP 4000S II or you can go with the 4 Seasons version (folding equivalent to Gatorskins) if punctures are a problem. they're pricey but worth the money if 28c is alright with you. Otherwise I like the cityride tyres (continental fanboy)
went to blackwall tires almost exclusively for the durability. It doesn't matter what color the tires are when you're walking a bike 5 miles to get back home.. I do have foldable gatorskins also which are doing okay. I do not think are the same old style natural (?) rubber, but i could be wrong.
Get gatorskins, problem solved. Now onto the bigger question. How can you recommend time atac pedals from the 90’s. For those of us who want to get into clipless brakeless riding time atac pedals are a mixed bag. Which model is most similar to the one you prefer?
what cleats or shoes were you wearing in this video
Zach Gallardo those old atacs are some of the longest lasting pedals made
Have you considered changing tire width to a 32 or changing your ratio to 48:17 for less fast spinning and more speed?
gear ratio matching through chain ring and cog teeth changes don't always work out. check Sheldon brown for an explanation on this.
Could you do a video on ideal nutrition for commuting daily?
Chase Buran Unless you road race, or train aggressively, just commuting on a bike only requires a normal and genrally
healthy diet. However, if you're using it as a form of cardio then treat it as such and incorporate a diet aimed at either building muscle or burning fat depending on your goals
Whoops at 4:13 …it’s silicone, not silicon!
Silicon is a hard abrasive mineral, it’s what sand is made of.
Silicone is a soft flexible gel, like the sealant around bathtubs.
On a related note, are detailing wipes safe to use on bikes? The label on Armor-All bottles says don't use on bike tires because this stuff is slippery, and if drips on the rims, then bye-bye brakes! Just asking because I recently purchased an old Schwinn Traveler that has gumwall tires (oops I mean skinwall tires) and I'm used to blackwall tires, so I've never sprayed my tires before.
Yo Zach (and the other lovely comment section dudes)
What are your thoughts on Mango Bikes' single speed/fixed gear bikes?
trash
I've ridden veras, kendas, thickslicks, gatorskins, ultra sports and super sports, grand prix4000, ritchey foldables, Hutchingson intensive 2's that are foldable and tons of other tires and I gotta say thick slicks are the way to go if you want a durable tire that's gonna last about a year if you don't skid too often. The ultra sports were an amazing set of tires I had those in 25×700c on of my favorites. super sports were good. The ritchey foldable is nice if I'm climbing some hills. The hutchingsons are what I'm riding right now and I gotta say they're not bad. 😎👍
I've never had a bad experience with Continental tires. im using 25c 4 seasons right now.
Been riding Panaracers Paselas in a NC town where its sunny a hell of a lot, with super shitty roads everywhere for 4 years. Ride with conti racelite tubes and I ride and smash into through and onto anything and ride offroad, a hilarious amount on my bike. Never ever had a sidewall blowout at all. Ultra durable. Also ride ritchey alpines and same deal. No issues. Ride over a hundred miles a week easy.
Thank you so much for making this video
Rotational weight only matters more than static weight when accelerating and it's because you have to build up the rotational momentum in addition to the forward momentum. For going uphill it doesn't matter where the weight is because you are fighting against gravity instead of building momentum.
Actually, the wheight of the wheel is specially important when going uphill. You can check this by using the energy principles
The mass of the wheel*
Guillermo J. Park yes, but no more so than non-rotational weight. Having said that, the original comment is not correct either because even if you are not accelerating or deceleration in the real world, are still using energy to maintain rotation. In theory, this should be offset by having more rotational kinetic energy in the wheel. In practice, this is not true unless going downhill. Anyone climbing can tell you that rotational weight feels a lot heavier, maybe not 2x heavier (which is just a number that pops up from the energy equations) but subjectively heavier. All this is moot, we aren't talking about much weight in the case of the tire wall.
Terry Chay well... Glad physics are not a real life thing
Guillermo J. Park To clarify, the difference between real life and him quoting some conventional wisdom response to your conventional wisdom based on physics (moment of inertia calculations) is paying attention in physics class,
When he is cornering, is he not accelerating inward? When he cycles, even on a flat, does he magically maintain perfectly the same speed? Has he ever feathered your brake while pedaling (on a regular bicycle) or ever skidded or forced his pedals to slow down (on a fixie)? Has he ever slowed down at an intersection or sped up from a stop light? In the real world and outside a velodrome, we are accelerating and decelerating constantly, those variances increase when going up a steep grade vs a flat which is why they matter as you pointed out. They should matter too on descents, but subjective considerations outweigh the physical advantage of larger rotational mass (we don't seem to care that it's easier to maintain descent speed when there is more weight in our wheels). Physics which you quoted predicts that in accelerating or decelerating rotational mass on the outermost part of the rim requires 2x the energy to achieve the same velocity (hence the CW on it being twice the effective weight, and by the way that's VELOCITY not speed, so any change in direction no matter how small is a change in velocity) while all other times that mass isn't a consideration, Acceleration/deceleration is a fact of life on a bicycle where the engine is our body and the world is full of wind, terrain and frictional losses where we change direction and speed all the time so that maxim, while not true all the time, is true some of the time.
Is rotational weight the same as regular weight? Nope because physics says that it's twice the effective weight when accelerating or decelerating. But is it 2x then? Nope because there are times when our velocity is stable or it really doesn't matter in terms of our subjective power output or loss. It's somewhere in between with it mattering most when accelerating from a stop light, next most on a climb, being outweighed (pardon the pun) by air resistance considerations on any grade less than 3%, and mattering not at all on a decent (where the extra rotational mass is actually a benefit)
My larger point was I haven't done the exact math with a scale but looking at my 20year old gumwalls vs my 10yo tires, we are talking about less than 1mm thick extra rubber on the sidewall, so I estimate the weight penalty here is less than 15g per tire (for reference, switching from a wire bead to a kevlar one saves 35g per tire). Even in the most generous case and scenario, that's less than 60g of effective added weight or three sips worth of extra water in your water bottle.
The real reason gum wall tires were popular for so long (besides saving cost of rubber back in the very early days) was because the lack of rubber increased flexibility of the tire itself which reduced rolling resistance at the same pressure (basically the wider the contact patch the less resistance). Back then (pre late 1990s) tires were pumped to max pressure and these thinner tires had lowered rolling resistance. Later we found out that increased vibrations due to higher pressures increased rider fatigue, meant that wider though heavier tires pumped to lower pressures increased real world rider performance and the gumwall started to disappear from professional tires and thus the market (mountain bikers long since rejecting gumwalls because of puncture resistance and durability).
However going for that "classic" look I'm sure is the target market of people who ride single speeds or fixies. I see the appeal of gumwalls to that segment. These are, after all. people who purchase deep dish metal rims just so they can be painted to their desires (the paint alone I'm guess adds as much rotational mass as the extra rubber on a sidewall). 😉
i love skin wall on my older steel bikes
how to change to a wider tire
I was in the shop today and I saw these S-Works turbo cotton tires at 60 bucks a pop. worth it?
gatchaponkei Yup. High rolling resistance which will result in a faster speed due to less friction.
That being said, its $60. If you do skids and stuff (I don't know how you ride) youre gonna wear out an expensive tire out fast and not get your money out. On a front wheel, it'd be great, but I'd recommend a Gatorskin or Thickslick for the back (if you skid).
no skidding by me, just distance time and speed.
I recently became a fan of specialized armadillo all condition tires
Honestly I've had zero problems with Pasela sidewalls after ~100 miles a week with SoCal sun, killed them after 2 years but they were great. Now I'm on the Gravel Kings
Can you make a video about the Wheel sizes and how do figure out what fits to my frame? :)
Here you go, buddy!
www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/331045-size-wheels-do-i-need-my-frame.html
mtlnascarfan Thx Bro!
Conti Grand Prix Classic i'm up to one sidewall fail , should have bought them whipes ..
2:07 How could the effect of "rotational weight" possibly be a controversial topic? It's basic physics, people!
Rotating mass only really mathers when accelerating. Once you get up to speed the the mass difference doesn't really mather. A heavier tire also wants to keep spinning for longer (newton's law's) meaning the extra energie you put in to get them spinning will benefit you when coasting on flat grounds.
@King Of Crunk solo time trials (not racing, just going fast alone)
have you tried veloflex? supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread
Zach Gallardo I have an old race bike with campy Lambada wheels so I'm stuck running tubulars and ive been trying to make the excuse to spend that bit more
Oliver Pickard I used to ride vittoria pave cg's and clement del mundos. Tubs have the best feel and traction. Thats why pros use em. Never got flats until the tread was worn real thin. Hassle to patch but then you get a new one and carry the old for spare
Veloflex are fantastic tyres to ride but they do puncture easily. I use the Master range (gum wall) or corsa (black wall) as my go to tyre in summer. Racing is on Record clinchers and deep rims (all about speed).
Ride quality is exceptional.
Note when they say they have a puncture protection layer (masters and Corsas)...it's really BS as the layer is made of calico which has zero puncture protection value, IMO.
Winter or in glass strewn areas I use conti GP4000s as it is the most versatile tyre but the gp4000s feels pretty dead and sluggish by comparison.
what size are your tires?
Anas Masad 700x35
i should buy skinwall tire tommorrow!
but im on double joepardy right now!
but guess what?
no matter what is should try it for my self!!
but thanks for this video it really helpful
A way to make skinwall or gum wall tires last longer and to avoid dry rot, you can line the outer sidewall with seem seal. Seem seal is a camping mattress glue. Works like magic...
Ever bombed laurel st.? We used to bomb that on our brakeless track bikes in the alley cats that Velo Culture you'sd to put on...
for me it's 700x23c conti gatorskins ultra all the way i've tried all different type of tires but i found for me anyway gator skins last longer and i've never had a flat with 1 on my bikes
my front is skinwall , a michelin dynamic classic , are they good ?
Syafiq M dynamic classics don't last that long not gonna lie
Syafiq M They are awful. they are slow and puncture really easy. if you do more than 50 miles a week get either the Gatorskins or Michelin's Pro4 Endurance v2.
James McClellan yup im gonna get gatorskins after these shits wear out
Syafiq M Don't even wait for that. Just buy the Michelin's Pro4 Endurance now. They are faster than the Gatorskins and offer near the same protection. But just Chuck those Dynamics. I had them on my Draft Lite for a minute. They are relatively slow for their weight. They have no puncture protection. They are okay for about 200 or 300 hundred miles. Then flat, flat, flat, flat, flat, flat... and pretty soon your spending more time fixing flats then you are riding your bike, but they won't be nearly worn out except for all the holes they'll have.
***** Dude, why do you keep saying it has better protection. It doesnt! The GP4000sii's have a higher count TPI making the tire thinner which means less protection, though it also makes it faster. But not more protection and though it does have 3 layers, the Gatorskins have 3 layers of 60 making the tire thicker and thus more protection from penetration, albiet that makes them heavier and thus slower. The GP4000II also LACKS the Duraskin layer of the Gatorskin that goes bead to bead on the Gatorskin Hardshell and the entire width of the regular Gatorskin and THAT my friend is what makes you very wrong. The Duraskin is what makes the tire more durable, shedding away objects on the sidewalls. They do both have Breakers, but the Gatorskin has a PolyX breaker which is easily better at repelling sharp objects than the Vectran breaker of the GP4000sIIs. Please stop misinforming the public. Don't get me wrong, of all the truly fast tires out there the GP4000sIIs are the best. But they don't offer near the protection of the Gatorskin. Not even close.
Yeah, it's Gatorskins or bust. I've got a set with 5-6k miles on them and they still have some tread left
Continental Gatorskins, they're just plain tough.
I'm not a small guy, I ride some kanked up roads in Southeast Texas and they just don't break... no punctures, no pinch flats and the tread wear is nearly unnoticeable at 1000 miles.
They ain't pretty, and at 23's they ain't real comfy either but they don't give up and I'd rather ride my bike than work on it.
THX for an awesome chanel Zack! I'm a fixed gear rider from Denmark. Aarhus to be exact... Hills, hills and you guesed it... More Hills! which makes gettning gear ratio just right quite the challenge. I have rebuild my old trashed MTB Black Concept into a fixed gear. I love my bike but my wheels are very out of true... can you please make a video on how to true a mesed up wheel. also I would love it if you would share some cool bike related sites or other youtube chanels that you enjoy. Thanks in Advance.
Carsten Kumari Paakjær hills, hills and hills in denmark?
hey man, we've got the same situation here in slovakia! just climbing 12% hills all the way :D I recomend you having a gear ratio cca 2.5 and you'll be just fine for those hills. Now I'm challenging myself with that 2.75 ratio on supersteep hills and I can keep it still kinda speedy but with extreme effort man. Wish you the best!
I live in England... No sun for me 😂😂
I ride white walls baanngg at 28 mm at 60 psi. Although my other fixie I use 40 mm black walls at 70 psi I prefer the big tyres.
I like how they look so i got a blackwall tire that the walls are painted like siknwall tires
dawg im looking for gumwall tires
i only ride two tires:
Continental gatorskin hard-shells (Engine 11 Vortex fixed)
Continental 4000sii (felt road bike)
Both are great tires and last a long fucking time, but i definitely notice the difference in the two.
The 4000sii are WAYYY smoother and you actually notice the difference because of the black chili compound shit it has. the hard-shells are awesome because i can run over anything and not worry about getting flats.
Die Farbe der Seitenwand hat nichts mit ihrer Haltbarkeit zu. Man könnte die Seitenwand genau so gut schwarz einfärben. Es gibt sogar Reifen von Compass mit Schwarzer Seitenwand. Compass Reifen sind allgemein leicht gebaut. Auf leichten Lauf ausgerichtet. Nicht auf Haltbarkeit.
Ich glaube das deine Seitenwand gerissen ist weil du mit zu wenig Luftdruck gefahren bist. Dann passiert genau das. Das ist auch auf der compass Seite genau so zu sehen.
Grüße
I liked the video because of the dirty bike bit. kill me now :P Good video
I only ride BLB black mambas love them
thumb up from italy!
303 protect-ant or Barlow pass tires in black
Dude just added you on Strava!
Thanks for the info about gumwalls or a skin
Specialized Armadillo All Condition 700x25 10,000 Miles Life
I don't really like how they look at much and I don't like how they get dirty looking faster.
Do a video about how to avoid sore ass
Pain in the butt because they so quickly show the dirt, particularly from chain oil on the rear tyre.
My vintage bike has blackwall tires
The physics is easy, rotational weight is called moment of inertia and it only matters when you are accelerating (or decelerating), basically when there is a change in velocity. It is the same as trying to run from a stop position sprinting with nothing on your back against sprinting while carrying a bag of potatoes, which one is easier? The skinwalls would be the equivalent to no bag of potatoes. This is why pro racers use lightweight bikes for climbing vs aero (yet heavier) for flat sections or time trialing.
I would like to see a vid on tiired I use. Cont Gator Skin Hardshell annd Cont' 4 Seasons and I ride fixed brakless in NYC thanks for the vids keep up the good work Zach
Panaracer Ribmo tires.. not the smoothest ride but never had a flat.
why aren't they treated against UV deterioration many products in NZ are because of the ozone hole over the country. For example a plastic sprinkler for europe will crumble in a short time as opposed to one made for NZ.
How do you argue with physics?
Skin wall for life! Lol I don’t like the look of all black tires or rims with black spikes. Which seems to be the trend these days.
Don't use that silicone treatments if you have rim brakes unless you thoroughly clean any silicone from the rim surfaces.
i have recently brought these tires with flames on they look dope and are the thickest things ever, i skid a lot and have a 3mile trip to school with hills so to slow down i skid and these tires have just been lasting for ages. the best part is you can smell the burning of rubber!!!
I really don't care how they look. From my experience comparing same tires made in both I find skinwall to have a very noticable difference in how it rides.
I had a set of Bontraeger H2's that came with my Trek Earl. They fell apart within 50 miles riding on the sketchy roads in my city. Boo.
conti gator hardshell, its the best tire ive ever had
The color of the sidewall has nothing to do with its durability. You could color the sidewall just as well. There are even Compass tires with black sidewall. Compass tires are generally lightweight. Geared for easy running. Not on durability.
I think your side wall is broken because you drove with too little air pressure. Then that's exactly what happens. That's the same on the compass page.
greetings
Your chain is rusty af
Pasela 700x32 kevlar bead is my go to tire. Today i was rockin' 60psi and pulling my bob trailer with a load of empty beverage containers. All was well. Enjoy the ride bud, love your vids!
tan sidewall is what I say. some people's skin are black so assuming that light yellowy tan is the color of "skin" is pretty silly.