Hey I'm back with some great news. All the torque specs you see and learn from this guy hold up strong. I ended up taking a 4.8 bottom end and putting 5.3 heads/cam together. My engine runs amazing.
Evan Westbrooks Excellent, more proven results showing the needed torque! I’ve decided factory rod bolts I’m going with 50#. I spent a lot of time determining the main bolt torque as well. I’ve seen a few others using my results 65# inner 55# outer, but also seen a few using 60# inner 50# outer bolts w/ little side bolts 18-20# with thread sealer. I truly think you have to pay attention to the “lightly” oiled threads when torquing, any additive could skew the results. I used regular conventional engine oil no additives. Thanks for the kind words and the support! Good luck on your build, try to update when it’s running! JD
Remember using the torque method is intended for used bolts only. New unstretched bolts are not recommended and if you experience any bolt during the tightening process feeling soft or not “Clicking” stop and replace it. JD
Thanks for doing this video, and for thinking like a real mechanic. I'm rebuilding my Gen 4 6.0 L96, and have spent hours searching for info on torque specs for re-using the TTY main & rod bolts. It's unbelievable how much contradictory and misleading information is being spread by 'experts'. The overwhelming consensus is that the main & rod bolts can be re-torqued using the factory TTY spec, which will obviously cause the bolts to yield again. In other words, the permanent stretch of the bolt is now double what it was designed for, which no competent mechanic would do. If a bolt has already been torqued to yield, the only way to safely re-use the bolt is to torque it to a value that gets close to the original clamping force but stops short of causing it to yield again. Therefore the factory TTY spec should never be applied to a bolt a second time. And I know there's lots of people claiming 'the GM TTY rod & main bolts aren't really TTY so you can use the spec TTY method as many times as you like..', and that's utter nonsense unless they can back it up with some solid data proving that the bolts have no permanent stretch from the factory TTY method. Just because they don't fail sometimes when stretched twice doesn't mean it's a rational thing to do. If GM says they're TTY bolts, then it should be assumed that they stretch upon first torquing, and should never be re-torqued using the TTY spec.
The only caution ⚠️ I have is the “Torque Method” is intended for used bolts only. Un-stretched new bolts have not been tested or verified! Sloppy Mechanics has good information online, he has several videos showing his torque method and values. Thanks for watching and for the feedback I appreciate it! JD
@@HeadFlowInc Yep, I agree, I think the factory TTY spec should be used for new OEM bolts, but should never be done to the same bolt twice. Any re-use of an already stretched bolt should stay below the threshold of additional yield.
Listen...I build a LOT of LS engines a year. Ive been torquing the used rod bolts to 52ft lbs. with no issues. Like you that's about where found they end up TTY, and you're right TTY is not consistent. A lot of folks don't understand if you replace the bolts the rod will need to be resized. period. as far as the mains go, most of the time I replace them and use the factory TTY method, but if I use the old ones I go 65 on the inner's and 60 on the outer. So no hate here. great video!
So Mark, even if the rod bolts are replaced with new oem TTY ones the rod will still need to be resized? I was under the impression new aftermarket rod bolts such as ARP's would need a big end resizing, didn't know whether or not original style ones would. Thanks...
@@thespot-x6g Technically yes...but no. if they are the same type stock cap bolts then yeah you can get away with not resizing. but ARP or any aftermarket bolt you MUST resize the housing bore.. that being said, I've even see some distortion with new stock replacement bolts...But its not enough to worry about. now, I'm talking LSX engines not rods with through bolts like a SBC. with through bolts , ANY bolt you change it must be resized, even stock ones.
I agree 100%. Union millwright for 15 years. Mechanical tech for Cat for 7. I’ve tried the angle degree on my Ls. Was very inconsistent. Did pretty much the same thing you did and feel way more comfortable with repeatability.
I found out the same way you did! The next day I went out to the shop and just for shits and giggles, I wanted to check the torque on the bottom end. And I found that nothing I torqued was consistent. So I started my Google research and just so happened to come across your video and it confirmed everything I found. Thank you for making a video on this issue for us poor bastards!
I have a digital Snap-on torque wrench that includes the final torque numbers in foot pounds. I torque the first bolt per spec and once I have that number in foot pounds I torque the rest of the fasteners in foot pounds.
Mike MacCracken The next time you build an LS engine I’d be very interested in seeing what the Snap-On memory shows for the Rod bolts and Both Inner & Outer Main bolts. The more data the better! 👍👍👍
@@HeadFlowInc ive been watching you long enough to trust your judgement. Im doing final assembly of my lq4 build tonite and i am reusing tta bolts. Im going to just use your torque specs instead of the angle gauge.
I just want to make things as simple as possible. Thank you for your feedback! JD PS the torque method only with used bolts, new bolts haven’t been stretched yet.
I came up with similar results on the mains. I did the torque then angle turn on the first 2 inner bolts and came up with 56 ft. lbs. Then the outers the same way and came up with 50 ft. lbs. Using my OEM bendy torque wrench I bought. Then evened them up on the rest of the bolts with using the way you said. This method worked only on the main bearing bolts on an aluminum block. Plus was only the first reuse on the bolts. The main bearing bolts, as far as I read, you can reuse them because no maintenance manual said not to. As far as I know, YES they are TTY bolts but are reusable ones. The head bolts didn't work out the same way. New bolts was used for the heads. I did the first 90 and came up with 60 ft. lbs. Then did the second round at 70 using the bendy torque wrench to see final torque for recording. The torque number stayed at 60 ft. lbs. while I did the second round to 70 degrees. Go figure. Think I got all of the bolts of the first head on the second round but not sure, LOL. If I blow a head gasket, the first thing I'm buying are the $400 head stud kit for the LS from ARP, LOL. And be done with the tty crap.
I may do the main bolt test again to see if everything averages the same. Keep in mind there’s a difference between TTY and TTA bolts. But both apparently have a lot of stretch. I’d like to watch Sloppy Mechanics and verify what he’s using for main bolt torque specs. As for the head studs we use the Speed-master head studs and follow the torque recommendation. An interesting tip our machine shop suggested, you can upgrade rod bolts to ARP/K-1 etc without machining as long as you don’t increase the torque when fastening. So if this is true a person could swap in better bolts and torque them to 50-53# lightly oiled threads not with the ARP lube. However it’s been proven an LS connecting rod will break before the oem bolts so why waste the money? 🤔 I’ll check out your channel thanks for the feedback! JD
Thank you for the info -- I wanted to share my results since I just got in from wrenching on my LQ4 (Iron truck block 6L). I was using a HF Quinn digital tq adapter set at 65 ft/lbs for the final tq spec on the center 13mm main caps. I had one bolt that wouldn't hit 65. It started to feel squishy, so I yanked the bolt and eyeballed the threads -- didn't see any stretch (Granted an eyeball check probably isn't good enough, I might get out the caliper and test a few including the "stretchy" one and see if my numbers indicate a stretch). So it's possible I was being a bit of a chicken, or 65 was a bit too high for me. This was for me to confirm bearing tolerances with plastigage, so I did remove all of them and I marked the squishy bolt and bolt hole. When I reassemble later this weekend, I'm going to shoot for 59 ft/lbs because my other digital tq wrench maxes out at 59. The outers all torqued fine to 55 on the same Quinn/HF torque gauge. All of the bolt holes were cleaned out with solvent, thread chased, blown out. The bolts were cleaned in solvent and a very light coating of atf fluid was on the threads. Mine is an early block (99) and I'm not sure if the main bolts were used more than once. Just putting this out here as another data point. As always, really appreciate the info.
I’d say 60/50 would work or 60/55 what ever. Those bolts aren’t really meant to be re-used but the Torque method Doesn’t work with a new unstretched bolt. JD
@@HeadFlowInc Thank you, yeah I wish the factory would have went with straight torque specs, but I suppose when you're cranking out millions of engines across many different plants, the TTA method is the only way to get an accurate clamp load on a new bolt with varying levels of quality on the threads. I may be cleaned the threads more than most did so at 65 foot pounds I might have had higher clamp loads or stretch? Not sure. Really appreciate all of your videos. I ported a set of 862 heads based on your videos :) No idea what they flow, but I subscribe to the old hot-rodder philosophy and I like to tweak everything I can. I also drilled the oil lands in the pistons, ported the oil pump, shimmed it and even drilled the lifter trays. All ways to make the engine a little bit better. I'm also trying out the melling timing dampener kit since my block is an early gen3 without any dampener at all.
You're in Kansas City! Wish I had watched your channel sooner. I live in the Metropolitan area and rebuilding my 6.0. Almost done but I get it on wanting to be thorough. I was gonna use my old main cap bolts but after having to retorque multiple times I couldn't rest so I bought new ones. I only loosened those maybe once or twice because of distractions I been working in my driveway and sometimes people are curious and interrupt when you're working and for me it would throw me off so I would start over. I feel somewhat confident but at the same time a bit nervous. Waiting to install my heads now that I completed the short block and reinstalled it in the truck. Did it that way because that's how I took it out plus it was easier for me since Im working alone. Thanks for sharing your kniwledge.
loveto livetruely Good luck on your build, it’s good you changed the main bolts. Any time they feel weird it’s best to change them. I bet the 6.0 should run strong! JD
Hi it's me again.... I finished my rebuild and I may have a couple problems. 1 when trying to start it wouldn't start. It wouldn't crank but not start. 1. Put my obd2 reader on git codes P0335 and P0336..... ( problems with position sensor ) 2 not too sure if my crank pulley is properly seated. It lines up with the water pump pulley and I think I bottomed out. Also don't know if I torqued the crankshaft bolt to 250ft lbs..... I used a breaker bar and got it as tight as I could. I read in the manual that the pulley is supposed to be 3/32 or 11/64ths from the crank snout?. Any help and advice would be appreciated. I do have pictures. Just need a little help been 3 months on this build. I did my best to take my time....
Great video I'm rebuilding a 01 firebird with a ls1 much needed advice and helpful video especially since I don't have a tta wrench or adapter that I felt I don't need. Just want to at least check my mains and rod bearings.. feel confident now.Also watched your porting of 241 heads videos very descriptive. Feel like I can do my own now. Ive built a few engines but there were older stuff like a 7.3 ford diesel and didn't have to worry about tta until doing this build. Good stuff thanks again man.
G On torquing the rods and mains, there are a lot of people using the Torque spec method over the TTA method, particularly when reusing the factory bolts. Porting is not difficult it just takes patience and learning tool control. I know you can do it, try to find a separate pair of heads to port, maybe in stages as you get better. Thanks for watching and the kind words I appreciate it! Stay safe JD
I like the TTA method better. Here's my $.02 if anyone cares- there are a few variables that can affect the torque vs. clamp force relationship. For example, a rusty dry bolt torqued to the same spec as a clean oiled bolt will have less clamping force even though both bolts are torqued the same. The angle of rotation however has a much more consistent relationship with clamping force. For example, when you spin a bolt into a threaded hole, that bolt travels down into the hole a known distance no matter if its oiled or dry. It probably doesn't make much difference at lower torque settings (15lbs or less) so that's why the first step is to torque the bolts to a small torque setting at first- It gives a consistent starting point before different forces and frictions begin to take place on the bolt. Turning the bolt to a known angle would then "stretch" the bolt a certain distance regardless of the amount of lubrication, thread condition, torque wrench quality, etc. The end result is bolts that are stretched the same, but not necessarily torqued the same. I would rather have my bolts stretched the same. My brother prefers the torque wrench method. Both of our engines run fine.
GreaseMonkey383 TTA is only accurate 1 time, as long as you start with New unused bolts/fasteners every time it will be with in specification. Using the TTA method on a used bolt will not provide the same clamping force as intended. But as you pointed out, both ways are currently running! 👍👍👍
@@HeadFlowIncI'm late. I was the 1st in my city to put a full weight. 4th gen LS base under 420 cubic inch nos motor on full true tq arm stock suspension welid or pure off shelf bolt on parts . Th400 trans 12 bolt small tire car. Gm did send a fyi statement saying 80lb should be done. My thing is and people disagree with but through Gm 6 bolt main cap 2 Extra cross drill bolts to stop crank from walking design well before Ford coyote stolen Gm direct bottom end design. That been proven by me and 1000s of people that a stock crank, Gm fastners motor and bottom end due to main cap clamping force design and all LS factory skirted blocks vs Gm Sbc BBC gen 1,2 Ford dodge Also. Before Gm Ls you had to buy a aftermarket Dart ECT motors to achieve 4 digits HP numbers unheard of on any stock OEM Factory block deal. An I'm born day 1 Gm boy to man. If Gm says tq and tta I'ma do it. Gm spent millions in engine testing and development for us to listen. But still think 💬 we are Smarter than the dag people who designed these motors. It doesn't cause extra to listen take hed and do what Gm asked us to do. That's even on a stock no pressure everyday use motor. People have no idea 💡 how nos or any power adder what that motor is going through to stay tight and in Spec after being build again. Wisdom always win.Ps. I appreciate your knowledge tho. An I know even 3 years ECT again I remember Sloppy Mechanics on the Ls1Tech forms guys was using their words as Gold. Without doing there own testing. Not understanding guys like them are not the Gm LS if they say it well dag it's facts truth. They do good bk . Everyone knows how much times they have split blocks messed up LS motors by thinking there mind is Smarter than Gm. You know how rare hard it is to mess up a Gm Ls. So take everything with a grade of salt. And do your own research.
This modern way In tighten fasteners TTY/angle trashes your bolts and waists your money on replacement bolts. Not to be reusable. Getting the rod and main bearings clearances on a rebuild using tty method, how many bolt sets will be stretched/ruined in this process "once they're TTY and suposed to not be reused if TTY". The torque method in the past worked just fine and didn't waist money on bolts. Rod and main bearings clearances could be set accordingly in the given torque range. TTY is just that or nothing not given range for checking setting clearances. For automotive applications it's stupid engineering to make you think you're be more technically advance (reinventing the wheel). Their engineered obsolense.
I personally use a digital torque meter. And you are dead on. TTA bolts do NOT provide as much force after second torque. This includes even testing with pasti-gauge. They are even worse after they are torqued and heat cycles the 1st time. If reusing the bolts, ignore the TTA specs and just torque to 65lb inner, and 55lb outer. (I know you say 50lb, which is fine too)... Outer bolts go to 18ftlbs. But GREAT VIDEO!!! Well done!!
***Used bolts Only, do not use the torque method with new unstretched bolts. Rods: 50-53# Mains- Inner bolts 60-65# Outer bolts 50-55# Side bolts w/sealer 20#
I need your expertise ,,My 6.0 LS with 117K its out of the vehicle on a engine stand took the oil pan off and took off the oil pickup tube to inspected the O Ring no pinches but flat around the outer edge so I put it back on again just so you know Im not reusing it but it just fell back in the hole of the oil pump with no resistance of pushing back in ,,So I bolted it down again and sprayed some soapy water on the area of the O ring and blew a little a compressed air and it was bubbling could this be the cause of a little loss of oil pressure ?
Here is a good way to check and see if a TTA bolt has been yieded,Thread a nut on the bolt with your fingers the entire lenght of the threads,if the nut stops at any time the bolt has been yielded and must not be reuesed,if the nut goes all the way threw the threads the bolt has not been yielded yet.
You are right, I have been building engines for more than 30 years, ASE ceritified engine machinist. You do talk too long, Just like all utube But i'm glad to see someone with common sense.
The headbolts need to be torqued to angle so you get the right stretch in the bolts. If you use arp head studs or arp head bolts those are just torqued to the foot pound specs. This guy making this video is grossly over thinking the whole thing and confusing people as a result of his video. Do it the way gm recommends.
One area of concern is whether or not “New” oem style bolts without the pre-stretch from the TTA process will provide the same clamp & hold? We have not tried torquing a new bolt only used factory. Thanks, good luck on your projects!
On mine now, this definitely feels like what i am used to and am comfortable with. Two hours later i have a stretched bolt and showing less than .001 on a main journal lol, putting that away for the day..
Update, ordered another set of bolts from a shop that race builds brand new crate engines, they sell the once tourqed never ran bolts, I did the tourqe angle method, went back over them with a tourqe wrench, found the inners to be roughly at 60 ft lb, outer ar 55, some clicked, some gave just a little then clicked, I feel like the tourqe number is more accurate than tourqe to angle..
The fact is all bolts that are torqued to a spec are in the elastic range of the torqued fastener. This new thing where we are told to go to a particular angle is some junior engineers fantasy about thread pitch and the resultant applied force which is related to the modulus of the material the fastener is made of. This angle stuff works good on paper but sucks in the shop. I am a very good mechanical engineer and understand this subject. Stick with a good click type torque wrench and build good engines.
Interesting perspective. Aircraft propeller engineers would disagree and we assemble the propeller hub bolts by checking them with outside micrometers for stretch. What would those pesky engineers actually know though, right?
That’s how we’re doing them with used bolts, the torque method is not intended for new TTA bolts. New bolts have zero previous stretch. Good luck on your project! JD
As long as they took the final torque and didn’t feel spongy or odd it should be fine. The only caution I have is don’t use the torque method with New un-stretched bolts. JD
Hi. Great video I’m about to put my pistons back in my 2002 5.3 and will be using the new Craftsman digital 1/2 torque wrench with built in angle, I would rather just torque all my rod bolts to 50-52ft/lbs instead of using the torque to angle, how well has this engine held up with the rod bolts torqued to 50lb/ft?
5yrs so far zero issues on my Turbo 4.8 or the several builds we’ve used the torque method for assembly. Note: the torque method is only for used, pre-stretched bolts not for “New” bolts. JD
What you may have proven when you checked the torque readings the next day and found the large inconsistencies in readings was that the bolts needed to be replaced. Think about this: You did the same thing to each bolt. The fastener tension should be the same for each bolt. If the tension is different, then the used bolts are fatigued. The design engineers would say you need to use fresh bolts. What it appears you have done is found a shortcut which enables you to reuse the old bolts. I would bet a dime to a dognut that if you put 20 operating hours on the engine using your shortcut, that your torque readings on these bolts will not be consistent. The bolts are tired and fatigued. They will probably be a little more consistent than when you had checked the torque angle method the next day in your analysis but you are still dealing with fatigued bolts designed to stretch only so often. If the engine is very valuable, you gotta comply with the engineering specifications and replace the bolts and follow the torque angle specs. I am an old school mechanic. I would consider an acceptable shortcut to only be to replace the bolts with non-stretchers which don't fatigue. I would be concerned about reusing the stretching type and have their securing force deteriorate or even snap after the engine is in use. I am working on a Honda f22A engine that was rebuilt by somebody who did not replace the head bolts. Under stress, the engine behaves like it has a blown head gasket. Under light load under 2,500 RPM there is absolutely no symptom of head gasket problem. I believe I will find head bolts that seem undertorqued or possibly broken. I ordered new bolts, but I am considering going to non-stretching stud fastener set up. This engine has been raced and the guy who put it together probably added a few ft pounds to the torquing during assembly. The head is just not tight enough after getting 1,600 miles on the engine. It is not the assembler's technique that is the problem. It was not an overheating problem that created this symptom. I can only conclude it is the stretched bolts reused in a rebuild after 275,000 miles. Hope this helps you.
Jonathan Banta This encompasses my findings to s tee! These TTA bolts are engineered to work one time, yet people regularly reuse the bolts and follow the TTA method. I mean 1000’s of people do it. I wanted to show there’s no way those used TTA bolts would provide the expected torque being reused using the TTA method. I do believe using the torque wrench method is better but not as good as switching to s good aftermarket bolt etc. JD
You can't expect a TTY/TTA bolt that has been stretched and used for several thousand miles and many heat cycles to contract back to its original dimensions. It's stretched already and you can't stretch it anymore, it's basically not a TTY bolt anymore and a torque specification should be used. As long as you don't surpass the yield point it should be good
I have only tested on the iron blocks but you could research others who use the same method to see if they show aluminum blocks. Sloppy Mechanics channel or others. The first area to compare would be the torque specs from GM between the iron & aluminum blocks. JD
What are your results after making this video 3 years ago? Do you still feel good about your original torque values? Would you still use these values today?
Here’s what we are doing with used bolts. I don’t recommend using the torque method with new Non-stretched bolts. LS engines bolt Torque: Rods: 50-53# Mains- Inner bolts 60-65# Outer bolts 50-55# Side bolts w/sealer 20# Head bolts: 65-70# Oil pump bypass plug 12# w/ Blue loctite
Are they no longer torqued the same due to oil on threads leaking off over night? Different leak down oil off the threads would result in different readings the next day.
These relatively small diameter main bolts are a little sketchy at holding a torque. I can report this method has easily handled 7000-7400 rpm shifts at 4.5-9.5# boost. I’m very tempted to go ARP next time but this requires having the mains honed if done properly. I only wish I had used Gen 4 Pistons and Rods on the build. JD
I also have a question if you hooked up your torque wrench to an angle finder until it clicked at 60 foot pounds it would tell you what your angle finder needs to be at right
How is engine machining done when sticking with tta bolts? Is the balancing done with used tta bolts and then final assembly done with new tta bolts? Would it be best/easier to go with new non tta bolts?
For balancing just have the bolts in the rods you plan to use. You can only use the torque only method with used pre-stretched bolts never on new TTA. ARP fasteners are really expensive and may require machine work to the rods and mains in the engine. JD
@@HeadFlowInc if the new bolts are used during balancing then after that they're not new anymore so they're pre stretched. So during final assembly it would be done with pre stretched bolts if I use those same bolts from the balancing process. My plan was to do final assembly with new bolts
I like your video on torquing I agree with you but the problem I'm having and all the controversy on which way the rods go on the crank mine don't have dots it's older gen. Ls I was told the chamfer goes to the crank side and the flat sides go together.which would make my arrows on the new pistons go opposite of each other but I see most people running theirs the same direction which is going by the rotation of the engine because the rod bearing locks would be on the torque side. I noticed yours was going the same way as everyone else. I need help
I’m wondering if they miss numbered your pistons and you need to swap banks, plus I would have to go out and verify but I’m not sure LS rods have a like a small black Chevy, etc.
Great video! May i ask what kind of thread sealant did you use on your head bolts that protrude into the water galleys?seen all over the place answers online from black rtv to locktite .
Warning ⚠️ LS head bolt holes are blind and do not go into the coolant passages like a SBC etc. On old school engines I use #2 gasket maker/sealant sold at most part stores. JD
Thanks for the reply man! Keep up the good work! I was just curious because i had some coolant in some of my bolt holes. Probably just fell in when head gasket seal was lifted
Hey buddy I have a question when you torque the main studs in sequence do you do the inside bolts altogether in three steps to the final torque value and then the outside or do you bring them all up together in three steps so the inside the outside the inside the outside the inside the outside up to 60 lb like you said
The first two torque stages can be the same the final torque is the only difference between the inner and outer bolts. I hope that answers your question. Also be advised using the torque method is only recommended as an option on used GM bolts, if they are new unstretched bolts you need to follow the factory TTA method. JD
Interesting analysis. The engineering people did not give any consideration for the engine being disassembled and reassembled. Some guys reuse the bolts and torque the piss out of them. Some guys are psychic and replace the bolts. Some guys reuse the bolts and torque them so that they behave correctly for the moment. Some guys shitcan the stretching bolts and go with standard strength.
Jonathan Banta I’m going to look into ARP bolts or something better than used OEM on the next build. It’s amazing people are making 1000+ HP with reused TTA bolts! 😳😳😳
The engine in the video is my 4.8 Turbo setup currently in my 1985 S10 Blazer. The torque specs I used are in the description. Rod bolts: 3 steps to 50ftlb Inner Main: 3 steps to 65ftlb Outer Main: 3 steps to 55ftlb Small Side mains: 18ftlb w/thread sealer or RTV. As a side Note: I’ve heard a lot of people use 60ftlb & 50ftlb on the Inner/Outer main bolts with good success. This is how I decided to torque mine and has worked excellent so far. JD
@@HeadFlowInc Thank you very much for getting back to me. I have a S10 pickup that I'm building a 5.3 in and I watch your video's and it has been a big help because I also seen your one about the transmission pump restrictor
All torque wrenches have a +/- ftlb range they are spec'd for. Better quality wrenches are +/-2 cheaper ones are +/-6... These numbers and ranges change based on how much torque. So the more torque, the less accurate. If anyone wants to see good testing of common torque wrenches, Project Farm has a really comprehensive video of cheap Harbor Freight wrenches all the way to Snap-On wrench and shows which is the most accurate.
im skeptical on some of his stuff. a good snap on 3/8 electric ratchet is second to none. that goes against project farm and i know hes wrong on that because i test mine everyday the milwakee just wont last over a month using it day in and day out. got a 5 gallon bucket full of them broke. snap on last about a year. im not saying the milwakee is junk just saying its not for everyday abuse like snap on is. the moral of the story is i wouldnt put all my trust in that goob.
I haven’t reused factory head bolts I used head studs. Matt on Sloppy Mechanics used to always use 65# for head bolts, in 3 equal steps. He has a video where he torques them higher but I’m not sure I’d push my luck. Sorry I haven’t done any testing on the factory head bolts but 65-70# sounds reasonable. I’d Google it and see what others are using to compare. JD
Bubba Arey I would have to research the Torque spec used by Sloppy Mechanic and others. This engine I used new Head Suds following their recommendation on Torque.
I'm building a 6.0 for boost and I'm at the point of the rod bolts. Should I reuse with you method in the video or install new gm bolts and either use your method or tta because they are new
Adam Manmiller I hope you’re using Gen 4 rods if you plan to boost very much. If you research the LS rods, you’ll break a rod before you’ll break the bolts. For my rod bolts I torque them in 3 stages: 15# 25# & 50#
Adam Manmiller Sorry I wasn’t very clear, I would re-use the oem bolts with the Torque method. I haven’t done any testing with New bolts that haven’t been stretched by the TTA method. You bring up a valid question that needs to be explored/tested, with New TTA bolts what would happen and if you were going with new bolts would it be better to go to ARP or K1? Thanks for watching and the question! JD
@@HeadFlowInc thank you for getting back to me I am using a gen 4 engine I will reuse the rod bolts thank you very much and I'm using all your content to build my engine 👍
gary mathews I ended up using Speedmaster head studs, since I’m considering putting a Turbo on it in the future. 👍 We’ve also had great results with the Mahle LS MLS head gaskets up to 25# of Boost. JD
Internal head bolt stud scare the piss out of me and here is why. While these are new to the market used on engine made in the hundred of thousand, imports have used them for decades. The Fiat "X 1/9th had studs that oil seeped passed the washer, filling the cavity. Overtime, this turned to black grade 8 tar. With an overhead 10" I beam attached to support a car, we lifted the car 1 foot of the ground by a chain fastened to the head only. 6 of us, in sequence bounced on the bumper of this rear engine car. After the 12th bounce, the head flew up and hit the ceiling, car fell to the ground. After we grabbed the head, un-wired it's chain from the hook of the coffin hoist, we had to chisel the head bolt holes open, removing the carbon. With dissimilar metal between a block and head, these have to be broke loose and re-torqued on at a time every 30K miles. The expansion loosen the gaskets seal while the bolts retain the same torque/clamping force. ASE Master since 1978.
Please help, i am disabled. So how did you get the clamping force to read out level finally? Can you remove the side bolts and install them last also OR final torque last? I'm sorry ididn't catch it or understand in the video. Yes its the only way to lightly oil bolts thread.
DYNA KLO The small outer bolts get torqued last they’re no problem. For the mains I carefully torqued them, let them relax over night, then checked them one more time the next day. A good quality torque wrench is a must JD P.S. side bolt use RTV/sealer and torque to 20 ftlb
What should I do about the trust bearing I’m just putting fresh bearings in a gen 3 6.0 some say just to tap the front and the back with a rubber mallet?
Victor Mendoza Yes you can either tap the crankshaft light seat it forward and backwards a couple times or pry it forward and backwards, the main thing is your forcing the thrust bearing to conform to the flats on the main journal. Either method will work fine! JD
Yes, it has new HD cam bearings and new rod/main bearings. During the disassembly the #8 rod bearing had a weird hot spot, the cam bearings were badly delaminating layers and I figured it’s cheap insurance to replace all the bearings. I had the crankshaft polished, not as much as I’d hoped but the bearing clearance was still in the factory range. I generally don’t run my clearance this tight but I wanted to be safe. Iirc the rod bearings were .0017”-.0019” range, I normally like a SBC rod bearing around .00225-.0025 JD
The general consensus is No, because the new TTA bolt has not been pre-stretched. I’m very curious though as to how true this “theory” is and whether it’s possible to use a normal torque value/routine with new bolts. I’ve never used new bolts so I can’t say for sure. JD
chris swoboda I’ve seen both 18# and 20# both with thread sealer. I’m not sure 2# makes any difference as long as you have the sealer on them to avoid oil seepage. Thanks for the feedback I appreciate it! 👍
We just break the final torque into 3 steps. ie 15#, 35# 50# or 20#, 40# 60#. Just try to sneak up on the final torque, if any bolt doesn’t feel right or doesn’t torque proper replace it with another used bolt. Do Not try to use the torque method on new unstretched bolts. JD
Ralph Huff Running better and better as I keep improving the tune! Oil pressure: Idle 750 rpms Cold start 58# Hot Idle 48-50# Cruise 65# WOT 70# + ruclips.net/video/Cue7tpIKxqA/видео.html
@@HeadFlowInc Thats great to hear. I'm finally putting mine together and was using old main bolts and rod bolts did the degree thing but after your recommendation i think I'll go 65 inner 55 outer and 50 ft/lbs on rod bolts. Thats what you did with your old bolts right.
Ralph Huff Yes, Only lightly oil the clean threads with engine oil! Friction modifiers like ARP lube reduces the torque needed. I used: New Bearings Cam, Rod & Main Mains: Inners 65# outers 55# Rods 50#
@@HeadFlowInc ok quick question then. My dad was helping me and he put some of the arp thread sealant on underside of bolts. So what would i do then. We originally done the 15ft/lbs and 80° & 51°. What is your recommendation. Rods were done at 15ft/lbs and 75°. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thks again
What were your torque sequences in rounds of three on your crank caps? Im definitely using your method because i too feel as you do about tta and how that way is extremely inconsistent. Thank you sir and you have a new subscriber
Using the torque method only works on used bolts. Do not try to use it with brand new unstretched bolts. Inner bolts 60# 20,40,60 Outer bolts 50# 20, 40, 50 Side bolts with thread sealer 20#
I used the 65/55 on mine because it was the closest I could determine to the factory clamping force. There are a lot of people using 60/50 with great success. But as far as I know most people are reusing factory bolts, when you buy new bolts they’re not stretched so I do not know if they will react the same. You bring up a good question, does a new bolt hold the same torque and clamping force as a used bolt when torqued? 🤔 On the rod bolts the normally accepted torque is between 50-53# Thanks for watching and the feedback! JD
All of this torque to yield and use only once seems to me to be over thought engineering. I drought that the metallurgy of the bolts is any different than a regular grade eight bolt. It is critical that the bolt threads and hole threads are clean and have the same very light oil covering them.
407ForRent I agree, there may be some legitimacy to the final clamp force using New bolts tightened with the TTA method. Or it possibly could have been an assembly process that was slim lined to save GM costs? I only know that using TTA on used bolts is very inconsistent in the final clamp force. Sketchy comes to mind! I truly hope I can get real world results by other builders who have the ability to measure final torque after using a TTA method. My Goal is to clarify all this Voodoo surrounding these TTA fasteners. Bottom line there’s a reason why manufacturers started using this tightening method, the reason may be as simple as making assembly difficult for the average person.
TTA is very precise on an assembly line, with new components. Guaranteed there is a reason GM does it that way, and it wouldn’t be cost as they are already using a torque reading for the first few steps. I would bet the engineers found better clamping consistency with pristine parts and computerized assembly going with TTA. It’s just not practical for home builders. I’m sure you know this, but others may not: torque to angle does not necessarily mean torque to yield.
Your study is fine, not knocking it, but to be truly accurate you would measure bolt stretch, not torque. If torque was consistent, that’s the way they would spec them. Comparing to torque is a flawed goal
J Minnick I bet the one rod bolt was stretched and needed retired. If you were following the TTA method you’d never have known that one bolt was weak. I’ve been using 50# and letting it eat works great. I’ve used these torques on the main bolts: 65 inners 55 outers 20 side 60 inners 50 outers 18 side Both work great!
Don't be cheap. Buy new head bolts. Rod bolts are still good as long as you can get them to torque down. I go to 49 foot pounds on rods on hundreds of ls motors without a single failure. Maincap bolts are reusable with no problem. Those rods he had in that shortblock are junk. We only use gen 4 rods in all of our motors.
I went with head studs on this build, but I agree 100% I should have used the stronger Gen 4 rods with floating pistons! I was being cheap and impatient on the build. I don’t have any Gen 4 4.8 parts but I do have a 2005 Gen 4 6.0 crankshaft and rods I could mate with some pistons… 😁
Kind of hard to mess up an angle meter. This is a proven method used to Torque “Used” TTA LS main bolts. This method should not be used for New bolts, follow the TTA method. JD
Just as an aside, with studs a torque spec is not needed if the desired fastener stretch is known. All you have to do is zero an indicator on the end of the stud and tighten the nut until the the desired stretch is attained. I have a book from when I was in high school in the 70s showing a shop that built Indy car engines using this method, in one photo of a rod cap being tightened, it looked like 3/8" dia stud with an indicator on the end of the stud and a common end wrench turning the nut. The caption stated the nut was tightened until the indicator showed .006" of stretch on the stud. They used this method because it is more accurate. Torque is an approximation that should arrive at close to a given dimension of stretch, but measuring the actual stretch makes measuring torque unnecessary. Again, this method only works with studs.
Victor Mendoza What were the 3 stages you used to torque the main bolts? You said stud which is confusing. Was your failure an inside or outside bolt? This is definitely not good for you but is valuable information because you’re the first person to report having an issue. This is my way and Sloppy Mechanics has been using this method for years. JD
Who uses multiple different torque wrenches to torque down the same bolts in the same area of the same engine? All your bolts are going in at the same time, you're going to be torquing down all of these fasteners at the same time. Use the same torque wrench... Second, get an electronic torque wrench that shows you the angle. It's not hard to use, and they are way more accurate than any mechanical torque wrench. Also you can use ARP Hardware instead, and get torque to yield fasteners.
Austin Crider With all due respect, I have to give supporting factors/data to support my decision to alter an assembly technique. Without explanation there’s no credibility to just posting a 2 minute video showing the torque figures. 🤔
I would rather say too much than not enough; id definitely not want anyone to follow an Internet suggestion without a full understanding. This topic could get very technical I tried to keep it easy to follow. I appreciate the support Thank you very much! JD
here’s some annoying fEdvack - which you’ve probley considered, 0th of all - after 199s of years, no one can predict the weather(yes that’s quite exactly relevant) - meaning none of these tta engineers no there ass from a hole in the ground. & 1st - inner threads being worn reduces, or relaxes in 5-10 minutes maybe, the grab power(& retested torque, from which ever method it was). 2nd the amount of ‘light oil’ you put I threads changes torque from when what ever method applied. 3rd?- all the torques mentioned by the ‘experts’ vary, for example - I’m thinking if reducing my timing cover & all that’s beneath it. there are fasteners on all the bolts that know one knows what are, no one knows if they are TTY bolts, tta bolts, or what the suggested torque is- from experts I hav heard 17’ lbs - 37’ lbs, - & 15, then another round at 15, then 60• trn.. cause no one knows their S from hOl in groOnd. 4th?- life is annoyingly s2pid in EVRE field(obVSlE cause Ppl R iDats), & fInLE 5th, there’s no such thing as a tta fastener/bolt in the 1st place.. it’s just a method(& smRTpNts boltwrd)👋😒 let me know how much you charge to redU that hole timing chain side, it’s leaking oil & chain rattles, I figure Y not jst replace evREthing.. & I live in KC aswL.
Hey I'm back with some great news. All the torque specs you see and learn from this guy hold up strong. I ended up taking a 4.8 bottom end and putting 5.3 heads/cam together. My engine runs amazing.
Evan Westbrooks Great update, congratulations on the new build! Enjoy and stay safe! JD
Just went thru this and did the torque to angle and came up with
Inner bolts: 60 ft/lbs Outer bolts: 55 ft/lbs Rods: 50 ft/lbs (lightly oiled)
I had done the same thing just yesterday and came up with 50 ft lbs as well. And found your video which just confirmed my tests. Thanks so much!
Evan Westbrooks Excellent, more proven results showing the needed torque! I’ve decided factory rod bolts I’m going with 50#.
I spent a lot of time determining the main bolt torque as well. I’ve seen a few others using my results 65# inner 55# outer, but also seen a few using 60# inner 50# outer bolts w/ little side bolts 18-20# with thread sealer.
I truly think you have to pay attention to the “lightly” oiled threads when torquing, any additive could skew the results. I used regular conventional engine oil no additives.
Thanks for the kind words and the support! Good luck on your build, try to update when it’s running! JD
I also came to the same conclusions. And yes I use no more then motor oil for threads and under the bolt heads. I agree 100% with your numbers.
Great info! Thanks for sharing this stuff, it's good to see someone actually investigate this instead of just blindly following someone else's word
Now thats what you call learning on youtube! Thank you sir!
Remember using the torque method is intended for used bolts only. New unstretched bolts are not recommended and if you experience any bolt during the tightening process feeling soft or not “Clicking” stop and replace it. JD
@@HeadFlowInc thank you for your lesson sir, it makes sense! Wish more video on youtube were like this!
Thanks for doing this video, and for thinking like a real mechanic. I'm rebuilding my Gen 4 6.0 L96, and have spent hours searching for info on torque specs for re-using the TTY main & rod bolts. It's unbelievable how much contradictory and misleading information is being spread by 'experts'. The overwhelming consensus is that the main & rod bolts can be re-torqued using the factory TTY spec, which will obviously cause the bolts to yield again. In other words, the permanent stretch of the bolt is now double what it was designed for, which no competent mechanic would do. If a bolt has already been torqued to yield, the only way to safely re-use the bolt is to torque it to a value that gets close to the original clamping force but stops short of causing it to yield again. Therefore the factory TTY spec should never be applied to a bolt a second time. And I know there's lots of people claiming 'the GM TTY rod & main bolts aren't really TTY so you can use the spec TTY method as many times as you like..', and that's utter nonsense unless they can back it up with some solid data proving that the bolts have no permanent stretch from the factory TTY method. Just because they don't fail sometimes when stretched twice doesn't mean it's a rational thing to do. If GM says they're TTY bolts, then it should be assumed that they stretch upon first torquing, and should never be re-torqued using the TTY spec.
The only caution ⚠️ I have is the “Torque Method” is intended for used bolts only. Un-stretched new bolts have not been tested or verified!
Sloppy Mechanics has good information online, he has several videos showing his torque method and values.
Thanks for watching and for the feedback I appreciate it! JD
@@HeadFlowInc Yep, I agree, I think the factory TTY spec should be used for new OEM bolts, but should never be done to the same bolt twice. Any re-use of an already stretched bolt should stay below the threshold of additional yield.
I have learned a lot from your videos keep up the good work and remember keep God first and everything else last
Jessica Watson- English Amen Thank You! 😇 JD
this is the only class I paid real attention and learned something that makes plenty sense to me
Note: This torque method is only ok with used pre- stretched bolts; I’m not sure I mentioned it in the video.
@HeadFlowInc yes you did mention that i caught that asap and yes im using my old bolts thanks again
Very methodical R&D. Thank you for sharing tech info.
Keith Lane The engine is running strong has 1500+ miles on it so far. Thanks for watching and for the feedback I appreciate it! 👍 JD
Listen...I build a LOT of LS engines a year. Ive been torquing the used rod bolts to 52ft lbs. with no issues. Like you that's about where found they end up TTY, and you're right TTY is not consistent. A lot of folks don't understand if you replace the bolts the rod will need to be resized. period. as far as the mains go, most of the time I replace them and use the factory TTY method, but if I use the old ones I go 65 on the inner's and 60 on the outer. So no hate here. great video!
So Mark, even if the rod bolts are replaced with new oem TTY ones the rod will still need to be resized? I was under the impression new aftermarket rod bolts such as ARP's would need a big end resizing, didn't know whether or not original style ones would. Thanks...
I only resize if I'm using a fastener, such as ARP, that requires a different torque spec. Same spec, same distortion.
@@thespot-x6g Technically yes...but no. if they are the same type stock cap bolts then yeah you can get away with not resizing. but ARP or any aftermarket bolt you MUST resize the housing bore.. that being said, I've even see some distortion with new stock replacement bolts...But its not enough to worry about. now, I'm talking LSX engines not rods with through bolts like a SBC. with through bolts , ANY bolt you change it must be resized, even stock ones.
@Marksracingengines Did you ever plasti-gauge the rod bolt’s using your 52ft/lbs method?
@@justinw523 I check the clearance yes. and I measure the bolt OAL if they have stretched more than .001 I use new bolts and do the TTY method.
This guy is great been watching for about 3 years now
Thank you for watching and the support! Stay safe and have a Merry Christmas! 🎄 JD
Same. I reference back to one of his videos for almost every engine build. Glad folks take the time to document. I don't have the patience.
I agree 100%. Union millwright for
15 years. Mechanical tech for Cat for 7. I’ve tried the angle degree on my Ls. Was very inconsistent. Did pretty much the same thing you did and feel way more comfortable with repeatability.
Justin Taylor Thanks for watching and the feedback I appreciate it! Stay safe JD
I found out the same way you did! The next day I went out to the shop and just for shits and giggles, I wanted to check the torque on the bottom end. And I found that nothing I torqued was consistent. So I started my Google research and just so happened to come across your video and it confirmed everything I found. Thank you for making a video on this issue for us poor bastards!
The engine in this video is still running great on 10# of boost! Thanks for watching and the feedback I hope you subscribed! JD
I have a digital Snap-on torque wrench that includes the final torque numbers in foot pounds. I torque the first bolt per spec and once I have that number in foot pounds I torque the rest of the fasteners in foot pounds.
Mike MacCracken The next time you build an LS engine I’d be very interested in seeing what the Snap-On memory shows for the Rod bolts and Both Inner & Outer Main bolts.
The more data the better! 👍👍👍
@@HeadFlowInc ive been watching you long enough to trust your judgement. Im doing final assembly of my lq4 build tonite and i am reusing tta bolts. Im going to just use your torque specs instead of the angle gauge.
Rick B I haven’t had any issues at all, plus there’s a lot of others doing it. Keep me updated on the build? 👍
Need more people like you. Thanks for the help. Scott
I just want to make things as simple as possible. Thank you for your feedback! JD
PS the torque method only with used bolts, new bolts haven’t been stretched yet.
I agree! Your study came out the same as mine did 2 years ago! Great Video!
Exactly what I found on my first ls.
Went with head studs and good
Torque with a snap on clicker style
I went with China head studs so far so good
I came up with similar results on the mains. I did the torque then angle turn on the first 2 inner bolts and came up with 56 ft. lbs. Then the outers the same way and came up with 50 ft. lbs. Using my OEM bendy torque wrench I bought. Then evened them up on the rest of the bolts with using the way you said. This method worked only on the main bearing bolts on an aluminum block. Plus was only the first reuse on the bolts. The main bearing bolts, as far as I read, you can reuse them because no maintenance manual said not to. As far as I know, YES they are TTY bolts but are reusable ones.
The head bolts didn't work out the same way. New bolts was used for the heads. I did the first 90 and came up with 60 ft. lbs. Then did the second round at 70 using the bendy torque wrench to see final torque for recording. The torque number stayed at 60 ft. lbs. while I did the second round to 70 degrees. Go figure. Think I got all of the bolts of the first head on the second round but not sure, LOL. If I blow a head gasket, the first thing I'm buying are the $400 head stud kit for the LS from ARP, LOL. And be done with the tty crap.
I actually did a series of vids on a 1991 chevy 3.1L on the torqueing of the bolts and why they loose torque after a while on my channel.
I may do the main bolt test again to see if everything averages the same. Keep in mind there’s a difference between TTY and TTA bolts. But both apparently have a lot of stretch.
I’d like to watch Sloppy Mechanics and verify what he’s using for main bolt torque specs. As for the head studs we use the Speed-master head studs and follow the torque recommendation.
An interesting tip our machine shop suggested, you can upgrade rod bolts to ARP/K-1 etc without machining as long as you don’t increase the torque when fastening. So if this is true a person could swap in better bolts and torque them to 50-53# lightly oiled threads not with the ARP lube. However it’s been proven an LS connecting rod will break before the oem bolts so why waste the money? 🤔
I’ll check out your channel thanks for the feedback! JD
Thank you for the info -- I wanted to share my results since I just got in from wrenching on my LQ4 (Iron truck block 6L). I was using a HF Quinn digital tq adapter set at 65 ft/lbs for the final tq spec on the center 13mm main caps. I had one bolt that wouldn't hit 65. It started to feel squishy, so I yanked the bolt and eyeballed the threads -- didn't see any stretch (Granted an eyeball check probably isn't good enough, I might get out the caliper and test a few including the "stretchy" one and see if my numbers indicate a stretch). So it's possible I was being a bit of a chicken, or 65 was a bit too high for me. This was for me to confirm bearing tolerances with plastigage, so I did remove all of them and I marked the squishy bolt and bolt hole. When I reassemble later this weekend, I'm going to shoot for 59 ft/lbs because my other digital tq wrench maxes out at 59. The outers all torqued fine to 55 on the same Quinn/HF torque gauge.
All of the bolt holes were cleaned out with solvent, thread chased, blown out. The bolts were cleaned in solvent and a very light coating of atf fluid was on the threads. Mine is an early block (99) and I'm not sure if the main bolts were used more than once. Just putting this out here as another data point. As always, really appreciate the info.
I’d say 60/50 would work or 60/55 what ever. Those bolts aren’t really meant to be re-used but the Torque method Doesn’t work with a new unstretched bolt. JD
@@HeadFlowInc Thank you, yeah I wish the factory would have went with straight torque specs, but I suppose when you're cranking out millions of engines across many different plants, the TTA method is the only way to get an accurate clamp load on a new bolt with varying levels of quality on the threads. I may be cleaned the threads more than most did so at 65 foot pounds I might have had higher clamp loads or stretch? Not sure.
Really appreciate all of your videos. I ported a set of 862 heads based on your videos :) No idea what they flow, but I subscribe to the old hot-rodder philosophy and I like to tweak everything I can. I also drilled the oil lands in the pistons, ported the oil pump, shimmed it and even drilled the lifter trays. All ways to make the engine a little bit better. I'm also trying out the melling timing dampener kit since my block is an early gen3 without any dampener at all.
You're in Kansas City! Wish I had watched your channel sooner. I live in the Metropolitan area and rebuilding my 6.0. Almost done but I get it on wanting to be thorough. I was gonna use my old main cap bolts but after having to retorque multiple times I couldn't rest so I bought new ones. I only loosened those maybe once or twice because of distractions I been working in my driveway and sometimes people are curious and interrupt when you're working and for me it would throw me off so I would start over. I feel somewhat confident but at the same time a bit nervous. Waiting to install my heads now that I completed the short block and reinstalled it in the truck. Did it that way because that's how I took it out plus it was easier for me since Im working alone.
Thanks for sharing your kniwledge.
loveto livetruely Good luck on your build, it’s good you changed the main bolts. Any time they feel weird it’s best to change them. I bet the 6.0 should run strong! JD
@@HeadFlowInc Thanks. I'll check out more of your videos since we're neighbors... lol
Hi it's me again.... I finished my rebuild and I may have a couple problems.
1 when trying to start it wouldn't start. It wouldn't crank but not start.
1. Put my obd2 reader on git codes P0335 and P0336..... ( problems with position
sensor )
2 not too sure if my crank pulley is properly seated. It lines up with the water pump pulley and I think I bottomed out. Also don't know if I torqued the crankshaft bolt to 250ft lbs..... I used a breaker bar and got it as tight as I could.
I read in the manual that the pulley is supposed to be 3/32 or 11/64ths from the crank snout?.
Any help and advice would be appreciated. I do have pictures.
Just need a little help been 3 months on this build. I did my best to take my time....
Great video I'm rebuilding a 01 firebird with a ls1 much needed advice and helpful video especially since I don't have a tta wrench or adapter that I felt I don't need. Just want to at least check my mains and rod bearings.. feel confident now.Also watched your porting of 241 heads videos very descriptive. Feel like I can do my own now. Ive built a few engines but there were older stuff like a 7.3 ford diesel and didn't have to worry about tta until doing this build. Good stuff thanks again man.
G On torquing the rods and mains, there are a lot of people using the Torque spec method over the TTA method, particularly when reusing the factory bolts.
Porting is not difficult it just takes patience and learning tool control. I know you can do it, try to find a separate pair of heads to port, maybe in stages as you get better.
Thanks for watching and the kind words I appreciate it! Stay safe JD
I like the TTA method better. Here's my $.02 if anyone cares- there are a few variables that can affect the torque vs. clamp force relationship. For example, a rusty dry bolt torqued to the same spec as a clean oiled bolt will have less clamping force even though both bolts are torqued the same. The angle of rotation however has a much more consistent relationship with clamping force. For example, when you spin a bolt into a threaded hole, that bolt travels down into the hole a known distance no matter if its oiled or dry. It probably doesn't make much difference at lower torque settings (15lbs or less) so that's why the first step is to torque the bolts to a small torque setting at first- It gives a consistent starting point before different forces and frictions begin to take place on the bolt. Turning the bolt to a known angle would then "stretch" the bolt a certain distance regardless of the amount of lubrication, thread condition, torque wrench quality, etc. The end result is bolts that are stretched the same, but not necessarily torqued the same. I would rather have my bolts stretched the same. My brother prefers the torque wrench method. Both of our engines run fine.
GreaseMonkey383 TTA is only accurate 1 time, as long as you start with New unused bolts/fasteners every time it will be with in specification.
Using the TTA method on a used bolt will not provide the same clamping force as intended.
But as you pointed out, both ways are currently running! 👍👍👍
@@HeadFlowIncI'm late. I was the 1st in my city to put a full weight. 4th gen LS base under 420 cubic inch nos motor on full true tq arm stock suspension welid or pure off shelf bolt on parts . Th400 trans 12 bolt small tire car. Gm did send a fyi statement saying 80lb should be done. My thing is and people disagree with but through Gm 6 bolt main cap 2 Extra cross drill bolts to stop crank from walking design well before Ford coyote stolen Gm direct bottom end design. That been proven by me and 1000s of people that a stock crank, Gm fastners motor and bottom end due to main cap clamping force design and all LS factory skirted blocks vs Gm Sbc BBC gen 1,2 Ford dodge Also. Before Gm Ls you had to buy a aftermarket Dart ECT motors to achieve 4 digits HP numbers unheard of on any stock OEM Factory block deal. An I'm born day 1 Gm boy to man. If Gm says tq and tta I'ma do it. Gm spent millions in engine testing and development for us to listen. But still think 💬 we are Smarter than the dag people who designed these motors. It doesn't cause extra to listen take hed and do what Gm asked us to do. That's even on a stock no pressure everyday use motor. People have no idea 💡 how nos or any power adder what that motor is going through to stay tight and in Spec after being build again. Wisdom always win.Ps. I appreciate your knowledge tho. An I know even 3 years ECT again I remember Sloppy Mechanics on the Ls1Tech forms guys was using their words as Gold. Without doing there own testing. Not understanding guys like them are not the Gm LS if they say it well dag it's facts truth. They do good bk . Everyone knows how much times they have split blocks messed up LS motors by thinking there mind is Smarter than Gm. You know how rare hard it is to mess up a Gm Ls. So take everything with a grade of salt. And do your own research.
This modern way In tighten fasteners TTY/angle trashes your bolts and waists your money on replacement bolts. Not to be reusable. Getting the rod and main bearings clearances on a rebuild using tty method, how many bolt sets will be stretched/ruined in this process "once they're TTY and suposed to not be reused if TTY". The torque method in the past worked just fine and didn't waist money on bolts. Rod and main bearings clearances could be set accordingly in the given torque range. TTY is just that or nothing not given range for checking setting clearances. For automotive applications it's stupid engineering to make you think you're be more technically advance (reinventing the wheel). Their engineered obsolense.
Great information ! Very helpful, Thanks!
Are the head bolts the same principle? If so what torque specs do you use?
Thanks for information and going to tork my 6.0 this weekend and try to get rods and pistons in and gaping done
Definitely gap the rings if you’re using Nitrous or boost. Good luck enjoy!
I personally use a digital torque meter. And you are dead on. TTA bolts do NOT provide as much force after second torque. This includes even testing with pasti-gauge. They are even worse after they are torqued and heat cycles the 1st time. If reusing the bolts, ignore the TTA specs and just torque to 65lb inner, and 55lb outer. (I know you say 50lb, which is fine too)... Outer bolts go to 18ftlbs.
But GREAT VIDEO!!! Well done!!
Thank you for watching and the feedback I appreciate it! I hope you subscribe JD
@@HeadFlowInc Subscribed!!
I'm putting together a stock 6.0 LS and I'm going ur way and I have a craftsman digital torque wrench
I hope you’re enjoying your 6 L!!!
Great video sir question what did you torque the side block to main caps to ?
***Used bolts Only, do not use the torque method with new unstretched bolts.
Rods: 50-53#
Mains-
Inner bolts 60-65#
Outer bolts 50-55#
Side bolts w/sealer 20#
I need your expertise ,,My 6.0 LS with 117K its out of the vehicle on a engine stand took the oil pan off and took off the oil pickup tube to inspected the O Ring no pinches but flat around the outer edge so I put it back on again just so you know Im not reusing it but it just fell back in the hole of the oil pump with no resistance of pushing back in ,,So I bolted it down again and sprayed some soapy water on the area of the O ring and blew a little a compressed air and it was bubbling could this be the cause of a little loss of oil pressure ?
Here is a good way to check and see if a TTA bolt has been yieded,Thread a nut on the bolt with your fingers the entire lenght of the threads,if the nut stops at any time the bolt has been yielded and must not be reuesed,if the nut goes all the way threw the threads the bolt has not been yielded yet.
speed tech Excellent tech tip Thank you! 👍
You are right, I have been building engines for more than 30 years, ASE ceritified engine machinist.
You do talk too long, Just like all utube But i'm glad to see someone with common sense.
It’s my style I try to talk to the camera the same way I would to anyone. I don’t have a script to rehearse or anything. JD
EXCELLENT my friend I agree torque to angle BS lol
The headbolts need to be torqued to angle so you get the right stretch in the bolts.
If you use arp head studs or arp head bolts those are just torqued to the foot pound specs.
This guy making this video is grossly over thinking the whole thing and confusing people as a result of his video.
Do it the way gm recommends.
Great info ! Thank You !
I agee with you completely. thanks for the vid.
One area of concern is whether or not “New” oem style bolts without the pre-stretch from the TTA process will provide the same clamp & hold? We have not tried torquing a new bolt only used factory. Thanks, good luck on your projects!
On mine now, this definitely feels like what i am used to and am comfortable with.
Two hours later i have a stretched bolt and showing less than .001 on a main journal lol, putting that away for the day..
The torque method should only be used with pre-stretched used bolts. Hopefully you didn’t run into a soft bolt but it does happen.
@@HeadFlowInc these were used, I have a standard crank polished, std main bearings clevite 77, showing. 001 with plastigage, one even less than that.
Update, ordered another set of bolts from a shop that race builds brand new crate engines, they sell the once tourqed never ran bolts, I did the tourqe angle method, went back over them with a tourqe wrench, found the inners to be roughly at 60 ft lb, outer ar 55, some clicked, some gave just a little then clicked, I feel like the tourqe number is more accurate than tourqe to angle..
And plastigage was terribly inaccurate for me, I checked everything with mics and bore gauges and had far better results.
The fact is all bolts that are torqued to a spec are in the elastic range of the torqued fastener. This new thing where we are told to go to a particular angle is some junior engineers fantasy about thread pitch and the resultant applied force which is related to the modulus of the material the fastener is made of. This angle stuff works good on paper but sucks in the shop. I am a very good mechanical engineer and understand this subject. Stick with a good click type torque wrench and build good engines.
Interesting perspective. Aircraft propeller engineers would disagree and we assemble the propeller hub bolts by checking them with outside micrometers for stretch. What would those pesky engineers actually know though, right?
final specs are- inner crank cap bolts: 65 lb-ft, outer crank cap bolts: 55 lb-ft, rod bolts: 50 lb-ft.
That’s how we’re doing them with used bolts, the torque method is not intended for new TTA bolts. New bolts have zero previous stretch.
Good luck on your project! JD
@@HeadFlowInc correct. Been doing it for years on many 5.3s.
Inner cap bolts I set at 60 ft-lb, outer cap bolts to 55 ft-lb and rods at 50 ft-lb.
As long as they took the final torque and didn’t feel spongy or odd it should be fine. The only caution I have is don’t use the torque method with New un-stretched bolts. JD
Hi. Great video I’m about to put my pistons back in my 2002 5.3 and will be using the new Craftsman digital 1/2 torque wrench with built in angle, I would rather just torque all my rod bolts to 50-52ft/lbs instead of using the torque to angle, how well has this engine held up with the rod bolts torqued to 50lb/ft?
5yrs so far zero issues on my Turbo 4.8 or the several builds we’ve used the torque method for assembly. Note: the torque method is only for used, pre-stretched bolts not for “New” bolts. JD
Ok thanks yes they still have the old rod bolts. Them you
Just clarifying. These torque specs you listed are for used bolts on the main caps? Thanks.
Yes. Used bolts only. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the reply, and the knowledge!
Man I thought chris griffin was building engines!😂😂 Thank you kind sir for sharing your knowledge!
I’ve been told I sound like him a lot, I had to go back and watch episode of Family Guy! Too funny thanks for watching! JD
I see you posted this in 2018. If you have the motor in and running have you had any issues? If so what did you find.
Zero issues, great oil pressure running strong with a GT45 turbo. 👍
What you may have proven when you checked the torque readings the next day and found the large inconsistencies in readings was that the bolts needed to be replaced. Think about this: You did the same thing to each bolt. The fastener tension should be the same for each bolt. If the tension is different, then the used bolts are fatigued. The design engineers would say you need to use fresh bolts. What it appears you have done is found a shortcut which enables you to reuse the old bolts. I would bet a dime to a dognut that if you put 20 operating hours on the engine using your shortcut, that your torque readings on these bolts will not be consistent. The bolts are tired and fatigued. They will probably be a little more consistent than when you had checked the torque angle method the next day in your analysis but you are still dealing with fatigued bolts designed to stretch only so often. If the engine is very valuable, you gotta comply with the engineering specifications and replace the bolts and follow the torque angle specs. I am an old school mechanic. I would consider an acceptable shortcut to only be to replace the bolts with non-stretchers which don't fatigue. I would be concerned about reusing the stretching type and have their securing force deteriorate or even snap after the engine is in use. I am working on a Honda f22A engine that was rebuilt by somebody who did not replace the head bolts. Under stress, the engine behaves like it has a blown head gasket. Under light load under 2,500 RPM there is absolutely no symptom of head gasket problem. I believe I will find head bolts that seem undertorqued or possibly broken. I ordered new bolts, but I am considering going to non-stretching stud fastener set up. This engine has been raced and the guy who put it together probably added a few ft pounds to the torquing during assembly. The head is just not tight enough after getting 1,600 miles on the engine. It is not the assembler's technique that is the problem. It was not an overheating problem that created this symptom. I can only conclude it is the stretched bolts reused in a rebuild after 275,000 miles. Hope this helps you.
Jonathan Banta This encompasses my findings to s tee! These TTA bolts are engineered to work one time, yet people regularly reuse the bolts and follow the TTA method. I mean 1000’s of people do it.
I wanted to show there’s no way those used TTA bolts would provide the expected torque being reused using the TTA method.
I do believe using the torque wrench method is better but not as good as switching to s good aftermarket bolt etc. JD
You can't expect a TTY/TTA bolt that has been stretched and used for several thousand miles and many heat cycles to contract back to its original dimensions. It's stretched already and you can't stretch it anymore, it's basically not a TTY bolt anymore and a torque specification should be used. As long as you don't surpass the yield point it should be good
I did the same thing dude I torqued them to da same thing u just said and much better consistentcy
Thank you for this video is this the same for LS1 aluminum blocks too? Or is this for the cast iron only blocks?
I have only tested on the iron blocks but you could research others who use the same method to see if they show aluminum blocks. Sloppy Mechanics channel or others.
The first area to compare would be the torque specs from GM between the iron & aluminum blocks. JD
What are your results after making this video 3 years ago? Do you still feel good about your original torque values? Would you still use these values today?
Here’s what we are doing with used bolts. I don’t recommend using the torque method with new Non-stretched bolts.
LS engines bolt Torque:
Rods: 50-53#
Mains-
Inner bolts 60-65#
Outer bolts 50-55#
Side bolts w/sealer 20#
Head bolts: 65-70#
Oil pump bypass plug 12# w/ Blue loctite
@@HeadFlowInc thank you for this information!
Are they no longer torqued the same due to oil on threads leaking off over night? Different leak down oil off the threads would result in different readings the next day.
These relatively small diameter main bolts are a little sketchy at holding a torque. I can report this method has easily handled 7000-7400 rpm shifts at 4.5-9.5# boost. I’m very tempted to go ARP next time but this requires having the mains honed if done properly.
I only wish I had used Gen 4 Pistons and Rods on the build. JD
I also have a question if you hooked up your torque wrench to an angle finder until it clicked at 60 foot pounds it would tell you what your angle finder needs to be at right
Huh? I don’t follow your explanation, can you clarify how this method would work? JD
How is engine machining done when sticking with tta bolts? Is the balancing done with used tta bolts and then final assembly done with new tta bolts? Would it be best/easier to go with new non tta bolts?
For balancing just have the bolts in the rods you plan to use.
You can only use the torque only method with used pre-stretched bolts never on new TTA.
ARP fasteners are really expensive and may require machine work to the rods and mains in the engine. JD
@@HeadFlowInc if the new bolts are used during balancing then after that they're not new anymore so they're pre stretched. So during final assembly it would be done with pre stretched bolts if I use those same bolts from the balancing process. My plan was to do final assembly with new bolts
On all my LS builds, I torque the other 60 and inner 65 ft lbs. 3 step 15, 35 then 60 or 65. Motors still going strong some are boosted 😉
How about your rods ?
I like your video on torquing I agree with you but the problem I'm having and all the controversy on which way the rods go on the crank mine don't have dots it's older gen. Ls I was told the chamfer goes to the crank side and the flat sides go together.which would make my arrows on the new pistons go opposite of each other but I see most people running theirs the same direction which is going by the rotation of the engine because the rod bearing locks would be on the torque side. I noticed yours was going the same way as everyone else. I need help
I’m wondering if they miss numbered your pistons and you need to swap banks, plus I would have to go out and verify but I’m not sure LS rods have a like a small black Chevy, etc.
Great video! May i ask what kind of thread sealant did you use on your head bolts that protrude into the water galleys?seen all over the place answers online from black rtv to locktite .
Warning ⚠️ LS head bolt holes are blind and do not go into the coolant passages like a SBC etc.
On old school engines I use #2 gasket maker/sealant sold at most part stores. JD
Thanks for the reply man! Keep up the good work! I was just curious because i had some coolant in some of my bolt holes. Probably just fell in when head gasket seal was lifted
Hey buddy I have a question when you torque the main studs in sequence do you do the inside bolts altogether in three steps to the final torque value and then the outside or do you bring them all up together in three steps so the inside the outside the inside the outside the inside the outside up to 60 lb like you said
The first two torque stages can be the same the final torque is the only difference between the inner and outer bolts. I hope that answers your question.
Also be advised using the torque method is only recommended as an option on used GM bolts, if they are new unstretched bolts you need to follow the factory TTA method. JD
Thank you very much
Just remember the “Torque Method” only works with used pre-stretched bolts! If you have new TTA bolts you’ll have to use the factory method. JD
Yes sir! I agree
Interesting analysis. The engineering people did not give any consideration for the engine being disassembled and reassembled. Some guys reuse the bolts and torque the piss out of them. Some guys are psychic and replace the bolts. Some guys reuse the bolts and torque them so that they behave correctly for the moment. Some guys shitcan the stretching bolts and go with standard strength.
Jonathan Banta I’m going to look into ARP bolts or something better than used OEM on the next build. It’s amazing people are making 1000+ HP with reused TTA bolts! 😳😳😳
what did you torque the mains and rods on your build and how is it running. I watch your builds
The engine in the video is my 4.8 Turbo setup currently in my 1985 S10 Blazer. The torque specs I used are in the description.
Rod bolts: 3 steps to 50ftlb
Inner Main: 3 steps to 65ftlb
Outer Main: 3 steps to 55ftlb
Small Side mains: 18ftlb w/thread sealer or RTV.
As a side Note: I’ve heard a lot of people use 60ftlb & 50ftlb on the Inner/Outer main bolts with good success.
This is how I decided to torque mine and has worked excellent so far. JD
@@HeadFlowInc Thank you very much for getting back to me. I have a S10 pickup that I'm building a 5.3 in and I watch your video's and it has been a big help because I also seen your one about the transmission pump restrictor
I subscribed just because you have common sense
All torque wrenches have a +/- ftlb range they are spec'd for. Better quality wrenches are +/-2 cheaper ones are +/-6... These numbers and ranges change based on how much torque. So the more torque, the less accurate.
If anyone wants to see good testing of common torque wrenches, Project Farm has a really comprehensive video of cheap Harbor Freight wrenches all the way to Snap-On wrench and shows which is the most accurate.
im skeptical on some of his stuff. a good snap on 3/8 electric ratchet is second to none. that goes against project farm and i know hes wrong on that because i test mine everyday the milwakee just wont last over a month using it day in and day out. got a 5 gallon bucket full of them broke. snap on last about a year. im not saying the milwakee is junk just saying its not for everyday abuse like snap on is. the moral of the story is i wouldnt put all my trust in that goob.
What about the head bolts?Do you reuse them and if you do how much do you torque them
I haven’t reused factory head bolts I used head studs. Matt on Sloppy Mechanics used to always use 65# for head bolts, in 3 equal steps. He has a video where he torques them higher but I’m not sure I’d push my luck.
Sorry I haven’t done any testing on the factory head bolts but 65-70# sounds reasonable. I’d Google it and see what others are using to compare. JD
What about the torque numbers on the head bolts ?
Bubba Arey I would have to research the Torque spec used by Sloppy Mechanic and others. This engine I used new Head Suds following their recommendation on Torque.
I'm building a 6.0 for boost and I'm at the point of the rod bolts. Should I reuse with you method in the video or install new gm bolts and either use your method or tta because they are new
Adam Manmiller I hope you’re using Gen 4 rods if you plan to boost very much.
If you research the LS rods, you’ll break a rod before you’ll break the bolts. For my rod bolts I torque them in 3 stages: 15# 25# & 50#
Adam Manmiller Sorry I wasn’t very clear, I would re-use the oem bolts with the Torque method. I haven’t done any testing with New bolts that haven’t been stretched by the TTA method. You bring up a valid question that needs to be explored/tested, with New TTA bolts what would happen and if you were going with new bolts would it be better to go to ARP or K1?
Thanks for watching and the question! JD
@@HeadFlowInc thank you for getting back to me I am using a gen 4 engine I will reuse the rod bolts thank you very much and I'm using all your content to build my engine 👍
If I’m using new bolts will the 60lb and 55lb outer torque lb work or should I go tighter?
No, I do not recommend using the torque method with new unstretched bolts. With new bolts I’d recommend using the TTA method. JD
@@HeadFlowInc what should I do if I already torqued them to that spec
don't reuse the stock GM head bolts ,they are very affordable from Texas Speed
gary mathews I ended up using Speedmaster head studs, since I’m considering putting a Turbo on it in the future. 👍
We’ve also had great results with the Mahle LS MLS head gaskets up to 25# of Boost. JD
Internal head bolt stud scare the piss out of me and here is why. While these are new to the market used on engine made in the hundred of thousand, imports have used them for decades. The Fiat "X 1/9th had studs that oil seeped passed the washer, filling the cavity. Overtime, this turned to black grade 8 tar. With an overhead 10" I beam attached to support a car, we lifted the car 1 foot of the ground by a chain fastened to the head only. 6 of us, in sequence bounced on the bumper of this rear engine car. After the 12th bounce, the head flew up and hit the ceiling, car fell to the ground. After we grabbed the head, un-wired it's chain from the hook of the coffin hoist, we had to chisel the head bolt holes open, removing the carbon. With dissimilar metal between a block and head, these have to be broke loose and re-torqued on at a time every 30K miles. The expansion loosen the gaskets seal while the bolts retain the same torque/clamping force. ASE Master since 1978.
Please help, i am disabled. So how did you get the clamping force to read out level finally? Can you remove the side bolts and install them last also OR final torque last? I'm sorry ididn't catch it or understand in the video. Yes its the only way to lightly oil bolts thread.
DYNA KLO The small outer bolts get torqued last they’re no problem. For the mains I carefully torqued them, let them relax over night, then checked them one more time the next day. A good quality torque wrench is a must JD
P.S. side bolt use RTV/sealer and torque to 20 ftlb
@@HeadFlowInc oh ok, thank you soo much. your videos are great.
What should I do about the trust bearing I’m just putting fresh bearings in a gen 3 6.0 some say just to tap the front and the back with a rubber mallet?
Victor Mendoza Yes you can either tap the crankshaft light seat it forward and backwards a couple times or pry it forward and backwards, the main thing is your forcing the thrust bearing to conform to the flats on the main journal. Either method will work fine! JD
Did you use new rod bearings and new main bearings?
Yes, it has new HD cam bearings and new rod/main bearings.
During the disassembly the #8 rod bearing had a weird hot spot, the cam bearings were badly delaminating layers and I figured it’s cheap insurance to replace all the bearings.
I had the crankshaft polished, not as much as I’d hoped but the bearing clearance was still in the factory range. I generally don’t run my clearance this tight but I wanted to be safe. Iirc the rod bearings were .0017”-.0019” range, I normally like a SBC rod bearing around .00225-.0025 JD
Thank you!
Do you put anything on the bolts
Lightly oiled with engine oil only. If you add anything other than plane oil it will change the torque value. JD
@@HeadFlowInc i did that not on the threads but under head of the bolt
Would it be the same with new oem bolts 15ftlbs and 85degrees
The general consensus is No, because the new TTA bolt has not been pre-stretched. I’m very curious though as to how true this “theory” is and whether it’s possible to use a normal torque value/routine with new bolts. I’ve never used new bolts so I can’t say for sure. JD
18 lbs on the side bolts.
chris swoboda I’ve seen both 18# and 20# both with thread sealer. I’m not sure 2# makes any difference as long as you have the sealer on them to avoid oil seepage. Thanks for the feedback I appreciate it! 👍
What did you torque the side bolts on the mains
Carlton Robinson The side bolts on the mains torque 20 ftlb w/ thread sealer.
Thanks for watching! JD
To reuse main bolts and rod bolts wat would be the specs on 1step to second step torque
We just break the final torque into 3 steps. ie 15#, 35# 50# or 20#, 40# 60#. Just try to sneak up on the final torque, if any bolt doesn’t feel right or doesn’t torque proper replace it with another used bolt. Do Not try to use the torque method on new unstretched bolts. JD
@@HeadFlowInc i just dropped off my 6.0 block and ls1 crank at the machine shop let’s see what they say
@@HeadFlowInc so they gave me it back and they said it’s to expensive to add the missing weight to get it balanced to spec
Is the engine still running
Ralph Huff Running better and better as I keep improving the tune!
Oil pressure: Idle 750 rpms
Cold start 58#
Hot Idle 48-50#
Cruise 65#
WOT 70# +
ruclips.net/video/Cue7tpIKxqA/видео.html
@@HeadFlowInc Thats great to hear. I'm finally putting mine together and was using old main bolts and rod bolts did the degree thing but after your recommendation i think I'll go 65 inner 55 outer and 50 ft/lbs on rod bolts. Thats what you did with your old bolts right.
And thats with new rod & main bearings correct?
Ralph Huff Yes, Only lightly oil the clean threads with engine oil! Friction modifiers like ARP lube reduces the torque needed.
I used: New Bearings Cam, Rod & Main
Mains:
Inners 65#
outers 55#
Rods 50#
@@HeadFlowInc ok quick question then. My dad was helping me and he put some of the arp thread sealant on underside of bolts. So what would i do then. We originally done the 15ft/lbs and 80° & 51°. What is your recommendation. Rods were done at 15ft/lbs and 75°. Any suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thks again
What were your torque sequences in rounds of three on your crank caps? Im definitely using your method because i too feel as you do about tta and how that way is extremely inconsistent. Thank you sir and you have a new subscriber
Using the torque method only works on used bolts. Do not try to use it with brand new unstretched bolts.
Inner bolts 60# 20,40,60
Outer bolts 50# 20, 40, 50
Side bolts with thread sealer 20#
@@HeadFlowInc Yes sir,they will be used. Thank you for the reply
Could you explain how to torque a TTY crankshaft bolt (new)on an LS engine
E walker LS use TTA bolts, however the crankshaft bolt is not one of them, the harmonic dampener bolt torques to 240 ftlb. JD
@@HeadFlowInc the sequence to get to 240
@@HeadFlowInc 240 pounds? That’s huge numbers
65 inner, 55 outer, 50 Rod? 6.0 LQ4? New Main Bolts just for comfortable measure.
I used the 65/55 on mine because it was the closest I could determine to the factory clamping force. There are a lot of people using 60/50 with great success.
But as far as I know most people are reusing factory bolts, when you buy new bolts they’re not stretched so I do not know if they will react the same. You bring up a good question, does a new bolt hold the same torque and clamping force as a used bolt when torqued? 🤔
On the rod bolts the normally accepted torque is between 50-53# Thanks for watching and the feedback! JD
@@HeadFlowInc well I will re use the bolts for checking main bearing with plasti gauge final assembly I'm going to use new for comfortable measure.
All of this torque to yield and use only once seems to me to be over thought engineering. I drought that the metallurgy of the bolts is any different than a regular grade eight bolt. It is critical that the bolt threads and hole threads are clean and have the same very light oil covering them.
So dont plastiguage it?
Why not include a test, torque it till the bolt fails.Everything is rubber, bolts included.
I don’t know I guess somebody else on RUclips might do that I don’t wanna break a bolt on purpose. I bet it wouldn’t be too hard.
Does this work for gen 3 6.0???
Victor Mendoza We’ve had great results on both Gen 3&4 using this method; CID doesn’t matter. Thanks for watching! JD
HeadFlowInc what about trust bearing how would I go about it without a gauge to measure
I’m not blowing up.👍
I agree TTA is just stupid
407ForRent I agree, there may be some legitimacy to the final clamp force using New bolts tightened with the TTA method. Or it possibly could have been an assembly process that was slim lined to save GM costs? I only know that using TTA on used bolts is very inconsistent in the final clamp force. Sketchy comes to mind! I truly hope I can get real world results by other builders who have the ability to measure final torque after using a TTA method.
My Goal is to clarify all this Voodoo surrounding these TTA fasteners.
Bottom line there’s a reason why manufacturers started using this tightening method, the reason may be as simple as making assembly difficult for the average person.
TTA is very precise on an assembly line, with new components. Guaranteed there is a reason GM does it that way, and it wouldn’t be cost as they are already using a torque reading for the first few steps. I would bet the engineers found better clamping consistency with pristine parts and computerized assembly going with TTA. It’s just not practical for home builders. I’m sure you know this, but others may not: torque to angle does not necessarily mean torque to yield.
Wait how tf else do you torque bolts if not with a torque wrench?
Dumb At's Angle Gauge TTA or TTY are two examples
@@HeadFlowInc my UTI education has failed me
😂😂😂
Your study is fine, not knocking it, but to be truly accurate you would measure bolt stretch, not torque. If torque was consistent, that’s the way they would spec them. Comparing to torque is a flawed goal
Works all the time, thanks for watching and the feedback! JD
I had simular results 52.5 but had one rod bolt didnt tork! 15ftlb then 185*
J Minnick I bet the one rod bolt was stretched and needed retired. If you were following the TTA method you’d never have known that one bolt was weak.
I’ve been using 50# and letting it eat works great. I’ve used these torques on the main bolts:
65 inners 55 outers 20 side
60 inners 50 outers 18 side
Both work great!
Don't be cheap. Buy new head bolts. Rod bolts are still good as long as you can get them to torque down. I go to 49 foot pounds on rods on hundreds of ls motors without a single failure.
Maincap bolts are reusable with no problem.
Those rods he had in that shortblock are junk.
We only use gen 4 rods in all of our motors.
I went with head studs on this build, but I agree 100% I should have used the stronger Gen 4 rods with floating pistons! I was being cheap and impatient on the build. I don’t have any Gen 4 4.8 parts but I do have a 2005 Gen 4 6.0 crankshaft and rods I could mate with some pistons… 😁
So maybe the TAM is poor quality?
Kind of hard to mess up an angle meter. This is a proven method used to Torque “Used” TTA LS main bolts. This method should not be used for New bolts, follow the TTA method. JD
Just as an aside, with studs a torque spec is not needed if the desired fastener stretch is known. All you have to do is zero an indicator on the end of the stud and tighten the nut until the the desired stretch is attained. I have a book from when I was in high school in the 70s showing a shop that built Indy car engines using this method, in one photo of a rod cap being tightened, it looked like 3/8" dia stud with an indicator on the end of the stud and a common end wrench turning the nut. The caption stated the nut was tightened until the indicator showed .006" of stretch on the stud. They used this method because it is more accurate. Torque is an approximation that should arrive at close to a given dimension of stretch, but measuring the actual stretch makes measuring torque unnecessary. Again, this method only works with studs.
Many ARP fasteners use the stretch method. Thanks for watching and the feedback! JD
I do the same thing tta is not safe in my book
Thanks for watching and the feedback I appreciate it! JD
@@HeadFlowInc anytime thank you for the videos 🙏
I just used your method and broke a stud
Victor Mendoza What were the 3 stages you used to torque the main bolts? You said stud which is confusing.
Was your failure an inside or outside bolt? This is definitely not good for you but is valuable information because you’re the first person to report having an issue. This is my way and Sloppy Mechanics has been using this method for years. JD
Who uses multiple different torque wrenches to torque down the same bolts in the same area of the same engine? All your bolts are going in at the same time, you're going to be torquing down all of these fasteners at the same time. Use the same torque wrench... Second, get an electronic torque wrench that shows you the angle. It's not hard to use, and they are way more accurate than any mechanical torque wrench. Also you can use ARP Hardware instead, and get torque to yield fasteners.
You talk to much... Not trying to be rude but damn get the the topic you described in the video
Austin Crider With all due respect, I have to give supporting factors/data to support my decision to alter an assembly technique. Without explanation there’s no credibility to just posting a 2 minute video showing the torque figures. 🤔
HeadFlowInc
Definitely, he must be a kid..
I would rather say too much than not enough; id definitely not want anyone to follow an Internet suggestion without a full understanding. This topic could get very technical I tried to keep it easy to follow.
I appreciate the support Thank you very much! JD
@@HeadFlowInc i think you threw out too many big words and numbers and he got upset because he didnt understand 🤣
here’s some annoying fEdvack - which you’ve probley considered, 0th of all - after 199s of years, no one can predict the weather(yes that’s quite exactly relevant) - meaning none of these tta engineers no there ass from a hole in the ground. & 1st - inner threads being worn reduces, or relaxes in 5-10 minutes maybe, the grab power(& retested torque, from which ever method it was). 2nd the amount of ‘light oil’ you put I threads changes torque from when what ever method applied. 3rd?- all the torques mentioned by the ‘experts’ vary, for example - I’m thinking if reducing my timing cover & all that’s beneath it. there are fasteners on all the bolts that know one knows what are, no one knows if they are TTY bolts, tta bolts, or what the suggested torque is- from experts I hav heard 17’ lbs - 37’ lbs, - & 15, then another round at 15, then 60• trn.. cause no one knows their S from hOl in groOnd. 4th?- life is annoyingly s2pid in EVRE field(obVSlE cause Ppl R iDats), & fInLE 5th, there’s no such thing as a tta fastener/bolt in the 1st place.. it’s just a method(& smRTpNts boltwrd)👋😒 let me know how much you charge to redU that hole timing chain side, it’s leaking oil & chain rattles, I figure Y not jst replace evREthing.. & I live in KC aswL.
Merry Christmas 🎄🎁
Dude listen enough about whatever get to the damn point
Skip, if you truly need more hand holding Go away. My videos are what they are.
Smart fellow..
Verifying and following others was my goal! Thanks for watching!