Note: you can have more than four people in a session in Jamulus. Updated video and a comparison with Sonobus: ruclips.net/video/Os16e8ZJM6s/видео.html
That's pretty significant, so it would be good put the correction in the video which, as it stands, would turn people away from Jamulus unless they happen to read the comments. Thanks.
I play on Jamulus a lot (on both private and public servers) and the maximum number of musicians is definitely more than 4. The max ranges from 10-20 musicians typically, based on the desires of the person who setup the server. A very large number of musicians (greater than 20) can increase latency and degrade sound quality, but some people seem to manage OK with very large groups. Tips: 1) Make sure Wifi is turned off, so you are not accidentally running over Wifi (you want to be on wired Ethernet), 2) Listen via the direct monitor from your audio interface (over headphones), and mute your own channel on Jamulus, so you don’t hear yourself delayed by the network latency, 3) Start a session with the “Mute Myself” button selected (on the left) until you check your sound levels, so you don’t join a jam and blast everyone with super loud sound, 4) When you start up Jamulus, look at “Settings” and verify that the sound driver for your audio interface is selected, and NOT standard input/output, 5) Mute any channels with musicians who you don’t want to hear (or lower the volume slider on their channel).
If you don't have 0 ping and 0 delay and listen yourslef by direct monitoring you lose the sync with others. You need to mute direct monitoring and play using jamulus audio to play in syncro with others.
I definitely prefer Jamulus ! Please do not misinform people. I have weakly sessions on private servers with over 20 to 30 people, I even did sessions with over 70 people ! and there is no other software that can handle so many participants with such a low latency. Yes it takes some knowledge and effort to setup private servers but it's definitely worth it!
I definitely prefer JamKazam. Huge difference now that money is going into development. Jamullus is open source, open code. Like driving a VW versus a BMW.
I've been on JamKazam for years, even before they turned it into paid service. We are a 5-person local group of church band. We practiced on JamKazam. On good days, we got ~30ms latency, which is actually pretty good... upto songs ~130bpm. If it goes over 40ms... then it gets difficult. You have to anticipate the beat (you'll know what I mean). It was especially useful during COVID shutdown. But nothing beats Yamaha's Syncroom.
Jamulus is Open Source under the GPL 2.0 license. Even if they charge for Jamulus, they can't close the source code, and anyone can reuse it, fork it and make a free version. That is why "free as in freedom" is better than "free as in free beer". You can trust projects with GPL licenses.
Setting up a server is just Jamulus -s in a command line. The more difficult part as you said is letting other folks into your network via port forwarding. But that is not rocket science either. I bet in most groups there is one person who can get that to work.. Also I work on Linux and Jamkazam does not support my platform.
Yes, that part isn't hard. They have even made a separate program to do that where you don't need to use the command line 'jamulusserver'. I agree it's definitely doable to set up the port forwarding, it just is more involved than it would be with other programs and will likely take more than a few minutes to figure out unless you have done similar things before. Thanks for letting us know about Linux not being an option for Jamkazam.
Your info is fantastic. You spit out so much it's like drinking from a fire hydrant. I'm new to your channel as I dip my toe into online rehearsals. Do you have your points distilled down to a transcript or bullet points? Thanks
@Sax Station my question deals with the strengths (product features) of the different remote online jamming / rehearsal reviews that you did. I just wonder if there was a transcript available or a bulleted document that distilled what you said in your online reviews. I think you covered jamulus and others.
@@isamps1749 Yes, latency is generally far better on Sonobus. Depending on your bandwidth, if you are using uncompressed PCH sound latency drops dramatically. And it supports both public and private sessions
Thanks, I tried Sonobus and was impressed, might make a video comparing it. Though I think I still need to experiment with some settings to reduce latency if possible.
Thanks for the video! I also tried both. It's a shame that Jam Kazam is trying to urge musicians to pay for something that was for free before, especially in C-19 times. If all issues would have been addressed before their so called "plans", i.e. a subscription, this would be okay. But paying for something, that isn't any better than before? I will wait until I hear all issues, especially latency , are fixed and stick with Jamulus for the time being.
I don’t have an issue with them charging for their service. They have been working a lot on issues, I have seen many updates. That should help them improve it faster.
@@SaxStation I’ve usedJK since April 2020. It was problematic at first but now it is rock solid. I have the $10 per month plan and worth every penny. I have not tried the other platforms but will try Jamulus as some other players I know use it.
The money that Jam Kazam is putting into the program is making a HUGE difference. It used to b VW and now its like a BMW in terms of features, usability and more. Bravo Jam Kazam!
Super cool Video! Not sure how much the speed of sound has to do with digital audio being ones and zeros (10101100010101101), but the rest of the video was superb!
Talking about the speed of sound is more to understand how you can hear 'latency' physically with no electronics involved. There is a delay in hearing sound due to distance. It's hard to notice when you're close.
upload/download speeds are most of the time irrelevant, they relate to bandwidth and 1Mbit/sec is already ample bandwidth for audio. ping time is what counts for latency! And yes SPEED test is a completely wrong therm in this case. Just compare the internet to roads, ping time relates to the speed limit, bandwidth relates to the number of lanes... So speed tests don't primarily measure speed but they measure bandwidth.
Jamulus has public sessions with over 100 musicians. You can set up your own private server very easily. Try worldjam.vip. Weekly online gigs/concerts. During the pandemic my band has used jamulus for rehearsing. Sadly I could NEVER get Jamkazam to work. It never recognised by hardware and kept throwing errors that I was in WiFi when I was always on ethernet (I have a powerful Win 10 Pro desktop and Focusrite/Roland interfaces. Very frustrating. Maybe geography (UK-Oxfordshire). Love you playing!
Make a Jamulus session private after all desired players have joined by unchecking the box on the server interface that adds the server to the central server list. When this is done after all players are accounted for, the session will drop off the public server listing. BTW, when the server application GUI is minimized in Windows, it's no longer in the task bar, it's in with the lower right-hand hidden icons. By setting all desired players to "solo", further unwanted players are muted, if a session is kept public.
@@SaxStation Each player should solo all session members. Is that an answer to your question? An alternative to this is setting "New Client Level" to zero. Not sure yet what works best however. I've notice some audio bleed-thru when "muting" an undesired entrant or pulling his volume down. But haven't checked yet to see if there is bleed-thru with the soloing method.
The number of participants (with decent audio quality) is effectively limited by the upload bandwidth of the server. I've seen it estimated that one needs 0.2 mbps per user, although on my server settings during session, at "mono" and "low quality", that stream is more like 0.3 mbps. In practice, this limit probably is rarely approached for anyone's server with a good cable connection.
@@SaxStation Yes I use them both Sonobus / Soundjack and they are both Free, The audio quality is amazing on both, Same quality that would come from your DAW. If you want to try out Sonobus let me know I can jump into a session with you. The creator has a Facebook support group where he interacts with you and also a group on Discord. You can use Sonobus as a VST also !!!
Been looking further into Sonobus. Although physics imposes the same speed of light limitations on all of these applications, what I read is that the peer-to-peer setup of Sonobus cuts the latency, at least by one ping time, because there's no round trip to a server and back. Also, it looks to me like adjustments of signal encoding may be more fine-grained than on Jamulus - some further trade-offs between audio quality and latency can be made. Some very nice additional features (like being to feed in an audio track, recording support, compression, noise gate, EQ, metronome, parametric EQ). Looking forward to jamming with others on this. We have lousy overall delay numbers here, and if we could cut the delay in half, that would be huge.
If you and your band mates have different isp providers, JamKazam can be unusable even if you are within ten miles of each other. Regardless, you will not find any jams where there is a happy drummer, and nobody is playing any uptempo tunes. Not to single out JamKazam, this is probably true of all the alternatives, but for the rhythm section, it is a horrible experience on any tune faster than 50 bpm.
I think you're wrong saying max is 4 people: user-images.githubusercontent.com/20726856/97360410-77476880-189e-11eb-99c6-f4a68258bf31.png And we have sessions with 20 people. Also here: github.com/corrados/jamulus/issues/208
Dude, you're so wishy washy with your opinions and conclusions. We tune into your RUclips video because you've been there done it. But then you don't really help us make a decision. And furthermore, it would be VERY USEFUL to hear 30 secs of a couple of sessions you did so we can hear with our own ears the latency. It is all about LATENCY. (all that said, thanks for doing this video).
I have a few short examples of myself playing with people on Jamulus and Sonobus in this follow up video, ruclips.net/video/Os16e8ZJM6s/видео.html Could also make a video with an example of JamKazam, haven’t been using it as much lately though. There are a lot of factors in play though. Which programs have you tried?
Note: you can have more than four people in a session in Jamulus. Updated video and a comparison with Sonobus: ruclips.net/video/Os16e8ZJM6s/видео.html
Yes, just widen the window or scroll it sideways!
That's pretty significant, so it would be good put the correction in the video which, as it stands, would turn people away from Jamulus unless they happen to read the comments. Thanks.
You can't change a video once it's up. So I can't do that. I could make a followup video. That's linked within the video, might do that later.
@@SaxStation understood. Still a good video. Thanks.
I play on Jamulus a lot (on both private and public servers) and the maximum number of musicians is definitely more than 4. The max ranges from 10-20 musicians typically, based on the desires of the person who setup the server. A very large number of musicians (greater than 20) can increase latency and degrade sound quality, but some people seem to manage OK with very large groups. Tips: 1) Make sure Wifi is turned off, so you are not accidentally running over Wifi (you want to be on wired Ethernet), 2) Listen via the direct monitor from your audio interface (over headphones), and mute your own channel on Jamulus, so you don’t hear yourself delayed by the network latency, 3) Start a session with the “Mute Myself” button selected (on the left) until you check your sound levels, so you don’t join a jam and blast everyone with super loud sound, 4) When you start up Jamulus, look at “Settings” and verify that the sound driver for your audio interface is selected, and NOT standard input/output, 5) Mute any channels with musicians who you don’t want to hear (or lower the volume slider on their channel).
Thanks. I pinned a comment about the number of users. Started editing a new video with some updates and a comparison with Sonobus as well.
If you don't have 0 ping and 0 delay and listen yourslef by direct monitoring you lose the sync with others. You need to mute direct monitoring and play using jamulus audio to play in syncro with others.
I definitely prefer Jamulus ! Please do not misinform people. I have weakly sessions on private servers with over 20 to 30 people, I even did sessions with over 70 people ! and there is no other software that can handle so many participants with such a low latency. Yes it takes some knowledge and effort to setup private servers but it's definitely worth it!
Yes, I know. Thanks. That’s in the pinned comment. RUclips videos can’t be edited once they’re up.
I definitely prefer JamKazam. Huge difference now that money is going into development. Jamullus is open source, open code. Like driving a VW versus a BMW.
I've been on JamKazam for years, even before they turned it into paid service.
We are a 5-person local group of church band. We practiced on JamKazam.
On good days, we got ~30ms latency, which is actually pretty good... upto songs ~130bpm. If it goes over 40ms... then it gets difficult. You have to anticipate the beat (you'll know what I mean). It was especially useful during COVID shutdown.
But nothing beats Yamaha's Syncroom.
Thanks for sharing JWC. I haven't tried that one.
Jamulus is Open Source under the GPL 2.0 license.
Even if they charge for Jamulus, they can't close the source code, and anyone can reuse it, fork it and make a free version. That is why "free as in freedom" is better than "free as in free beer". You can trust projects with GPL licenses.
Thanks
At 4:02 I say 'speed of sound' when I meant to say 'speed of light', so the speed of light being the universal speed limit.
Outstanding presentation as expected from you Neal 👏
Thanks Dwain!
Setting up a server is just Jamulus -s in a command line. The more difficult part as you said is letting other folks into your network via port forwarding. But that is not rocket science either. I bet in most groups there is one person who can get that to work.. Also I work on Linux and Jamkazam does not support my platform.
Yes, that part isn't hard. They have even made a separate program to do that where you don't need to use the command line 'jamulusserver'.
I agree it's definitely doable to set up the port forwarding, it just is more involved than it would be with other programs and will likely take more than a few minutes to figure out unless you have done similar things before.
Thanks for letting us know about Linux not being an option for Jamkazam.
I gave up on jamkaz last night.
I value my hair and don't want to tear any more out. Jamulus was a better experience but with less options.
Thanks for sharing J. J.
Your info is fantastic. You spit out so much it's like drinking from a fire hydrant. I'm new to your channel as I dip my toe into online rehearsals. Do you have your points distilled down to a transcript or bullet points? Thanks
I have made some classes that are available on SaxStation.com What exactly are you interested in?
@Sax Station my question deals with the strengths (product features) of the different remote online jamming / rehearsal reviews that you did. I just wonder if there was a transcript available or a bulleted document that distilled what you said in your online reviews. I think you covered jamulus and others.
I haven't posted that. I can consider it. The programs also change though.
You should try SonoBus # its like jamkazam, but open source and more polished.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Is Sonobus better than JamKazam with latency? , Does it support private sessions for rehearsals?
@@isamps1749 it's about the same, or just sliiiightly more latency but wav 24bit audio quality and more features... Yes you can have private sessions
@@isamps1749 Yes, latency is generally far better on Sonobus. Depending on your bandwidth, if you are using uncompressed PCH sound latency drops dramatically. And it supports both public and private sessions
Thanks, I tried Sonobus and was impressed, might make a video comparing it. Though I think I still need to experiment with some settings to reduce latency if possible.
Thanks for the video! I also tried both. It's a shame that Jam Kazam is trying to urge musicians to pay for something that was for free before, especially in C-19 times. If all issues would have been addressed before their so called "plans", i.e. a subscription, this would be okay. But paying for something, that isn't any better than before? I will wait until I hear all issues, especially latency , are fixed and stick with Jamulus for the time being.
I don’t have an issue with them charging for their service. They have been working a lot on issues, I have seen many updates. That should help them improve it faster.
@@SaxStation I’ve usedJK since April 2020. It was problematic at first but now it is rock solid. I have the $10 per month plan and worth every penny. I have not tried the other platforms but will try Jamulus as some other players I know use it.
The money that Jam Kazam is putting into the program is making a HUGE difference. It used to b VW and now its like a BMW in terms of features, usability and more. Bravo Jam Kazam!
You can record a session on JamKazam if you have a paid account, but I do not at this point.
Super cool Video! Not sure how much the speed of sound has to do with digital audio being ones and zeros (10101100010101101), but the rest of the video was superb!
Thanks. I talk about that a little more in a follow up video I think. Depending on the compression of the sound file more.
Talking about the speed of sound is more to understand how you can hear 'latency' physically with no electronics involved. There is a delay in hearing sound due to distance. It's hard to notice when you're close.
Wow. So much here to learn
Yeah kinda overwhelming to me...
Which system would you recommend is better, if you are doing a rehearsal with a live band and inviting one musician from out of state to join?
Jamkazam is easier to use for a private group. I would lean towards Jamulus though. How far out of state is the other person?
@@SaxStation Jamulus has the lowest latency and therefore the best for jamming.
Have you also tried Sonobus?
Yes, acceptable for small groups, but still higher latency than jamulus., but easier to use.
Thanks. I think I'll make a followup video fairly soon.
In my search, I found JamKazam but you have Jamkazam. Is the first spelling not right?
They probably capitalize the letter K, but those are the same letters in what you wrote.
Thanks for the info on these - can I ask what where your upload/download speeds? roughly (with a speed test)
From a test just now,
11.4 mb/s down
1.16 mb/s up
@@SaxStation thanks! going to try is out soon
upload/download speeds are most of the time irrelevant, they relate to bandwidth and 1Mbit/sec is already ample bandwidth for audio. ping time is what counts for latency! And yes SPEED test is a completely wrong therm in this case. Just compare the internet to roads, ping time relates to the speed limit, bandwidth relates to the number of lanes... So speed tests don't primarily measure speed but they measure bandwidth.
Thanks
Thanks so much
Jamulus has public sessions with over 100 musicians. You can set up your own private server very easily. Try worldjam.vip. Weekly online gigs/concerts. During the pandemic my band has used jamulus for rehearsing. Sadly I could NEVER get Jamkazam to work. It never recognised by hardware and kept throwing errors that I was in WiFi when I was always on ethernet (I have a powerful Win 10 Pro desktop and Focusrite/Roland interfaces. Very frustrating. Maybe geography (UK-Oxfordshire). Love you playing!
Thanks James.
I had a problem for weeks, then I changed my sample rate from 96khz to 44.1 and it has never crashed since then.
Make a Jamulus session private after all desired players have joined by unchecking the box on the server interface that adds the server to the central server list. When this is done after all players are accounted for, the session will drop off the public server listing.
BTW, when the server application GUI is minimized in Windows, it's no longer in the task bar, it's in with the lower right-hand hidden icons.
By setting all desired players to "solo", further unwanted players are muted, if a session is kept public.
Thanks Barry, can try that. I had used the solo button the last time I was in a Jamulus session. They can still hear yiu in that case though?
@@SaxStation Each player should solo all session members. Is that an answer to your question? An alternative to this is setting "New Client Level" to zero. Not sure yet what works best however.
I've notice some audio bleed-thru when "muting" an undesired entrant or pulling his volume down. But haven't checked yet to see if there is bleed-thru with the soloing method.
I'm asking if the people who aren't marked as solo will hear the session of the people that are in solo. Thanks
@@SaxStation Yes, the solo button doesn't mute you for others in the session. "Mute myself" does though, i.e. to play along without being heard.
Thanks
Please add a note to the video, there never was a limit of 4 people in Jamulus, the current limit is 150
Yes, I know. That's in the comments already more than once.
The 'annotations' that RUclips used to have are no longer available. So it's in the pinned comment.
The number of participants (with decent audio quality) is effectively limited by the upload bandwidth of the server. I've seen it estimated that one needs 0.2 mbps per user, although on my server settings during session, at "mono" and "low quality", that stream is more like 0.3 mbps. In practice, this limit probably is rarely approached for anyone's server with a good cable connection.
That is a funny way to acces a sidefire mic ;-)
Maybe, I didn't want it to block my face for the video. How would you set it up?
There is also Sonobus and SoundJack with Much better audio quality and latency ... and they are FREE
Thanks. Might try those. Jamulus is free, you have also tried it?
@@SaxStation Yes I use them both Sonobus / Soundjack and they are both Free, The audio quality is amazing on both, Same quality that would come from your DAW. If you want to try out Sonobus let me know I can jump into a session with you. The creator has a Facebook support group where he interacts with you and also a group on Discord. You can use Sonobus as a VST also !!!
Been looking further into Sonobus. Although physics imposes the same speed of light limitations on all of these applications, what I read is that the peer-to-peer setup of Sonobus cuts the latency, at least by one ping time, because there's no round trip to a server and back. Also, it looks to me like adjustments of signal encoding may be more fine-grained than on Jamulus - some further trade-offs between audio quality and latency can be made.
Some very nice additional features (like being to feed in an audio track, recording support, compression, noise gate, EQ, metronome, parametric EQ).
Looking forward to jamming with others on this. We have lousy overall delay numbers here, and if we could cut the delay in half, that would be huge.
I tried Sonobus a couple of days ago, it seemed pretty good. Thanks. What do you think of Jamulus?
@@SaxStation Its a good platform, I use both Sonobus and Jamulus mostly now.
If you and your band mates have different isp providers, JamKazam can be unusable even if you are within ten miles of each other. Regardless, you will not find any jams where there is a happy drummer, and nobody is playing any uptempo tunes. Not to single out JamKazam, this is probably true of all the alternatives, but for the rhythm section, it is a horrible experience on any tune faster than 50 bpm.
Thanks Peter. Have you tried alternatives?
try mumble on highest bit rate, very low latency
Thanks for the suggestion
I think you're wrong saying max is 4 people: user-images.githubusercontent.com/20726856/97360410-77476880-189e-11eb-99c6-f4a68258bf31.png
And we have sessions with 20 people.
Also here: github.com/corrados/jamulus/issues/208
Yes, you are correct. Someone already pointed that out in the comments.
Even that is no longer true, there are already servers up to over 100 people (and I run servers for 60 people myself)
Dude, you're so wishy washy with your opinions and conclusions. We tune into your RUclips video because you've been there done it. But then you don't really help us make a decision. And furthermore, it would be VERY USEFUL to hear 30 secs of a couple of sessions you did so we can hear with our own ears the latency. It is all about LATENCY. (all that said, thanks for doing this video).
I have a few short examples of myself playing with people on Jamulus and Sonobus in this follow up video, ruclips.net/video/Os16e8ZJM6s/видео.html Could also make a video with an example of JamKazam, haven’t been using it as much lately though. There are a lot of factors in play though. Which programs have you tried?
Do you have a specific question other than wanting to hear examples?