혼동이 아니라 외국인들이 한국어 어설퍼서 반말해도 존댓말을 써야죠. 제 경험인데 알게된지 얼마안된 저보다 어린 외국교환학생 친구가 반말할때 제가 계속 존댓말하니, 그친구가 왜 계속 같은 '요'라는걸 하냐고 물어보길래 존댓말 이라고 설명해줬어요. 그 뒤에 어학당선생님께 물어봤는지, 형이라고도 하고 존댓말도 해주더라구요. 상대방은 어설퍼도 되지만, 우리가 한국말과 문화를 바로 가르쳐줘야 그 친구에게도 도움이 되는게 아닌가 싶습니다.
한국식 예의로 안할거면 그 나라 사람 예의로 하던가... 다짜고짜 너 You라고 하는 "외국인"이 어딨음 Mister라고 하던가 Mr.해밍턴 이라고 해야지. 샘이라고 이름으로만 부르는 것도 친해진 후에 하는거고, You라고 부르는건 상당히 권위적인 태도임. 우리나라도 똑같잖음. 꼭 못 배운 사람들이 자기 무례를 Cool이라는걸 들이밀면서 덮으려고 함. "야 (내가) 그럴 수도 있지", "뭐 그거가지고 삐지냐" 이런 애들
Matty Bruno Lucas Zenere Salas The age that can drive is 18+ old (legal age)in Korea. This age is same with other countries. We use two ages. One is the thing Dave and Sam dealed in this video(used in common), and another one is a legal age.
옛날에 공단에서 알바 한적 있는데 거기선 외국인 노동자들에게 나이고 뭐고 상관 없이 무조건 100% 반말이던데 ㅎㅎㅎ 심지어 호칭이 야, 너, 이런 말도 아니고 야임마, 이새끼야 ㅋㅋㅋ 외국인은 한국어의 반말 높임말 체계를 모를거라 봐서 그러는 걸까.. 아니면 죄다 베트남, 필리핀, 캄보디아, 방글라데시같은 후진국 약소국에서 온 사람들이라 무시해서 그런 건지.. 미국이나 유럽처럼 강대국이나 선진국 사람이 공장에 일하러오면 어떻게 말할까.. 물론 당연히 미국, 유럽에서 한국공장에 일하러 오는 사람이 없으니 잘은 모르겠지만
진짜 같은 한국인인데 한국에서도 초면이면 존댓말 쓰는 게 맞는 데 나이부심 갖고 그러는 거 은근 있어요. (저는 초면에 만난 사람은 그 사람이 누구든 존댓말 써요.) 한국 나이... 한국 법적으로는 만 나이를 쓰는 데 관습적으로 한국 나이를 쓰는 편이죠... ㅠㅠ 저도 그거 은근 골치 아파해요.
I took Korean language classes during 4 years and they never told us informal speech. Which tend to be awkward with my Korean friend who is 10 years younger than me. He is like 'noona why are you so polite with me use banmal' and I'm like 'I cAnT'
I'm reading the Talk to me in Korean books and they introduce both 존댓말 and 반말 in the beginning of the first book, but they clarify that jondeamal ends with "yo" and "nida", and that you should be learning jondeamal first and only use banmal with close friends/family 🙂 Since I'm still learning the language I use jondeamal if I'm writing something in Korean to a Korean person I've just started chatting with, even if they're younger than me, I'll only try to not use jondeamal if they say I don't have to be so formal. Still learning how to not use the "yo" and "nida" tho 😝
I honestly struggled to speak in 반말 for the first year of living in Korea, despite actually speaking Korean generally pretty well. I hate when other foreigners act like it's too hard to use 존댓말 because like...no??? At least add 요.
@@블리-x2g 2007년 사라져서 빠른폐지 된 애들은 사회에 이제 나오기 시작했죠. 학교에서 사라졌다고 사회에서 사라진거 아닙니다. 학번따지면 빠른월생 동갑애들이 선배노릇 하고 있어요. 전 3개월차이인데 언니라고 부르는 사람도 있네요. 제가 친구먹으면 그 쪽 그룹지인들 전부 족보 꼬이니까요.
I guess the reason why you guys feel offended when a younger korean speaks informally in korean to you but you're okay with that in english is because language shapes the way we think. And culture is so closely linked to language🤷
sims city I was in the US and met a younger Korean American who immediately spoke informal to me in Korean. I was so pissed. It is like when millennials don’t give up their seat on the subway making pretend they don’t see older people looking at their damn cell phones.
@@hanabanana3365 right?! I saw this title on a ted talk's vid about this topic. I haven't watched the vid, but the title alone makes a lot of sense to me, like I think this way since then
@@christinedowd1820 yeah, like I had a friend from germany who's 10+ years older than me and we spoke casually to each other. But, being asian myself, I couldn't get used to being addressed informally by my junior in uni for a while. But the senior/junior hierarchy in my country isn't as strict as in korea imo
This is so relatable, I feel like Koreans sometimes underestimate foreigners living there and just started talking to us informally and it does a lot of times feel like theyre being disrespectful. And I agree with Sam, I still find korean age system to be so confusing and complicated x_x
In France, we have a formal system : "le vouvoiement". We use for the people we have to respect and we don't know well. If an unknown person speaks to me in the street with informal language, it's weird. So i can unterstand the japonese and korean linguistic system. But in France, it isn't with age. If we are close friend or family, we speak with informal system. It's more if i know or don't know this person. Exept with my husband's parents, i'm close but i speak to them with "vouvoiement" for the respect. But now, with 6 years of marriage, I want to try to speak to them in informal language because we are a family. But it's hard to change a habit, it's sounds weird when I say "tu" instead of "vous".
Japanese isn't with age either. its kinda like the Latin romance languages. but the Japanese take it step further with add 3 more levels, based on other criteria. but age isnt really one of them..
Not a huge deal but it's interesting how you capitalized France but used lower case for Japanese and Korean. Kinda caught my attention since we're discussing formalities and all.
@@jwo122 It's a common mistake/habit for native french speakers, due to the fact that only proper names are capitalized in french. Could be perceived as belittling to some, like in Valérie's comment case, but i can assure you that their writing pattern follows the french rule that names take a capitalized letter (France) and adjectives don't (korean and japanese).
jw Maybe it's due to the french automatic correction ? I have the same problem. If I don't re-read it. korea => Corée japonese => Japonais PS : Sorry for my english
마지막에 나왔던 빠른년생이 생긴건 바로 나이 시스템과 학제 시스템의 불일치 때문이에요. 제가 학교를 입학해서 다닐 때까지만 했어도 1,2월 생들은 개학이 3월에 한다는 이유로 그 전해에 태어난 사람들과 같은 학년으로 묶여졌죠. 즉, 데이브씨 처럼 89년 1월이나 2월에 태어나면 88년 생과 같은 학년으로 묶이고, 89년에 태어나더라도 3월 이후에 태어나면 89년 부터 90년 2월 생까지 같은 학년으로 묶어서 이러한 문제가 생기게 되었죠. (이게 사회에서도 문제가 되니까 제가알기로는 08년도부터 09년도 초등학교 입학생부터 1월생부터 12월생까지 입학하는 걸로 바꾼걸로 알고 있어요) 저도 91년 1월 생이라 학교에 입학하라는 서류를 받고 입학을 했는데 90년 생들과 같은 학년으로 초, 중, 고를 나오게 되었죠. 근데 이게 사회 나와서 대학교 와서 크게 문제가 되더라구요. 저는 크게 신경을 안썼는데 말이죠. 특히나 제가 처한 상황은 양쪽에서 잡아당겨 찢기는 상황이었어요. 저랑 같은 학년으로 12년을 지내온 애들한테는 너 왜 한 살 어려지려고 하냐라는 말을 듣고 대학교 1년 후배한테는 너 같은 91인데 내가 너한테 왜 형, 오빠라고 불러야되냐는 말을 들었죠. 빠른 년생도 결국 정부에서 정한 학제 시스템의 피해자인데 이렇게 양쪽에서 잡아당기는게 너무 힘들더라구요.
Because Koreans are raised knowing this languagr hierarchy, for them to go out of their way to change their tone to a foreigner... just a piss take. I'm still learning korean but even i am aware of the level of respect needed when meeting someone.
As a Korean I would like to point out that the levels of formality are a pain in the ass. I stick to two simple rules 1. no given names for those older or not friends and 2. yo at the end of sentences. If they are obviously younger or friends, informal it is.
Where I'm from, we have 2 different ways of saying "you", formal and informal. Formal is mainly for strangers and older people, and informal mainly for friends and younger people. I always make sure to start with formal, just to be respectful and on the safe side. And THEN if they tell me "ah, just use informal. Makes me feel less old lol" or something, THEN I know I can use informal. To use informal with someone right of the bat might give them a bad impression of you. Of course there are also people who don't care. But the point is that, it isn't for me to decide if I want to use formal or informal with you, especially if I want to be respectful (and if they're older). So I think that I would also feel put off if someone would use the same argument as in the video on me. Like, no, that's not for you to, just, decide, KID.
Immediately, if I were to speak with someone in Korean, I'd stick with formal too. Also, I feel like it shows the amount of effort you put in to genuinely learn the language.
현재 일본거주 8년차입니다. 같은 아시아사람이더라도 외국인이라는 이유로 한참어린사람에게 반말로 듣게되면 매우 기분나쁜데 심지어 양국 모두 존댓말, 반말이 공존하는데도 반말을 하는 경우가 너무 많았어요. 지금도 많이 있고요. 여러분들도 외국인보면 친해지고 싶은 마음은 알겠지만 너무 외국인인식을 가지고 다가가기보단 같은 형제로서 다가가는게 그 사람에게 배려해주는 것이라고 생각합니다.
타국들 똑같은 문화가 아니잖아요...영어를 못 하는 외국인도 있고 높임말이 있는 언어가 있잖아요.... 제가 영어 잘 못하는 외국인이고 제 언어는 그런 높임말이 있는 언어 중 하나이기 때문에, 제가 모르는 사람을 만날 때, 그리고 친하지 않을 때, 제 나라에서도 사람들이 서로 얘기할 때 처음엔 높임말부터 시작해야 해요..... 한국에서 마찬가지로...외국인이니까 저에게 반말로 얘기해야 해요?? 이런 사건이 몇 개가 있어서 그때 정말 슬펐어요....
예의없고 생각없는 사람 많죠.. 그리고 외국인이라고 다 영어하는게 아니고 다 문화도 다르고 쓰는말도 다르고 외국인이라고 예의없이 아무한테나 막대하는거 아닌데 초면에 영어하거나 반말하고 엉겨붙는걸 쿨하다고 생각하는 사람도 있어요.. 한국사람들이 외국인 대해본적 없는사람 너무 많아서 존중을 어떻게 해야하는지 모르는거같아요
also, regarding "in the west" - that's such a generalisation, i'm from europe and there are hierarchical differences in my mother language (and other european languages i've studied as foreign languages in school) and you would never use the informal to address a stranger. so conflating english-speaking countries/cultures with non-english-speaking ones doesn't really help their argument
I didn't even recognize Sam,he looks amazing! Bet he feels amazing too,losing all that weight,great job! Keep up the good work Dave,sending good vibes from Croatia
Korea is not the only country where people add one or two years to their age. Malaysian Chinese do it too. Ours is more complicated in that our chinese not only includes an extra year that accounts for our time in the womb but it follows the chinese calander. However, it is easier because there is practically no use and most people don't care about their chinese age anymore and default to standard age. But Malaysians (regardless of ethnicity) count age by new year (1 January) rather than birthday. e.x. I was born in June 1996. Starting from 1 January 2020, I would tell people I'm 24 even though I'm technically 23 until my birthday in June. My chinese age is 25 after chinese new year in february
진짜 제가 하고싶은 말을 두분이서 다하시네요 참 많이 공감됨니다. 저도 빠른년생인데 친구들한테는 족보 브레이커라고 욕먹었지요 아니, 동창생도 아니고 사회에서 만났고 같은해에 태어났는데 형,동생 하라고? 게다가 친구랑 그사람이랑 아무런 접점도 없는데 왜 내가 욕먹고 족보꼬인다는 소리 들어야하는지! 진짜로 학교동창아니고 사회에서 만났다면 빠른 안따졌으면 좋겠네요
Having levels of respect is in a characteristic of Korean culture and therefore, it's ingrained in Korean language as well. Why should foreigners be excluded from it just because we are foreigners? It should apply to anyone who's speaking, listening or simply being talked about in the language right? Languages like English may not specifically require you to use formal words, sentences or conjugations to make it formal but we still talk in a respectful way to people that needs to be respected.
나이 문제나 빠른 년생 문제는 다 학생때 존댓말 존칭 문화 때문에 생긴거예요. 당연히 생일이 지나야 나이를 먹는 다는걸 알지만 1월1일로 나이를 일괄적으로 먹게 만든건 학생들 때문이에요. 예를 들어서 4월생이 있고 11월 생이 있다고 칩니다. 같이 입학했고 친구니까 반말을 하겠죠. 3월까지는. 그런데 4월생이 생일이 지나면 형이 되잖아요. 그럼 존댓말을 쓰고 형이라고 불러야 하잖아요.. 이상하죠? ㅋㅋ 빠른도 마찬가지입니다. 친구들끼리 존칭에 변화가 생기면 이상하잖아요..~ 3월에 새학기가 시작하는데 지난해 1월 1일부터 12월 31일 출생자들을 새학기에 받아야 되는데. 법을 만드는 사람들은 만나이를 따져서 작년3월부터 올3월 생을 입학시킨 거죠. 그래서 빠른이 생긴거예요. 1-2월 생들은 사실 나이는 어리지만 같은 반 친구니까 반말을 하는 거고요. 대학에 가면 어느정도 해결이 됩니다. 재수 삼수생도 있고 하니까. 외국인은 빠른을 이야기 할 필요가 전혀 없어요. ㅎㅎ한국에서 중고등 학교를 다니지 않았다면요. 요즘은 어떻게 바뀌었는지 모르겠네요. 대학 졸업을 하고 나면 나이 보다는 출생년도나 띠를 물어보죠.~
I've been learning Korean for about 8/9 months now and my teacher is *always* saying stuff like "oh this thing we just learned is only to use if you're close with someone" or "you absolutely have to speak to older people in this way as it's respectful" and then when I'm practicing Korean on HelloTalk or something I have people right off the bat speaking informally to me because I'm a foreigner or because we "don't have formal language in English", I can't help but feel disrespected, because I've been told so much "you have to speak in XYZ way to show respect to the other person" - it can be a little frustrating haha!
The thing is people use Korean differently on the Internet. On many sites or apps, it's not actually considered rude to use informal speech to strangers. So it might've been just the app you were using, not because you were a foreigner. Even on this video, you can see many Korean comments are in informal.
yup get them same thing with Japanese, its like you don't have it, now unless they are learning Spanish which has formal cases or Russian, then that is a different story. they will use what Japanese call keigo. though its the younger generation that does it, from what i have seen. if we are around the same age they use 1st level of politeness. but after a while the longer you know them they use plain form. though it is for other reasons. when i learned Korean though to me it look like the younger generation did it more often than the older.. which would confuse me.
ㅋㅋyes 로마에 가면 로마법을 따라야쥬. 내말이 그말인데 바로 쌤씨가 얘기했네요. 외국인이라도 한국에 있으면 오빠 맞지요. 정말....'외국인'이라고 선을 긋고 대하는게 느껴지는 것 같아서 I feel your frustration 반대로 저는 외국사는데 여기서 한국말 배우는 친구들이랑 만나면 저한테 자꾸 언니라고 불러서 좀 어색해요.
빠른 년생은 1월과 2월 출생자일 경우 8세(한국나이)가 아니라 7세에 초등학교를 들어가는 제도가 있어서 그랬어요. 그러면 그 아이는 자기보다 한살 많은 사람들과 학교 동기가 되는데, 이 경우 자기 동갑인 친구들은 자신의 학교 동기들보다 한살 어린 친구들인 거죠. 그래서 자기는 동갑인 친구들보다 나이가 더 많은 것으로 쳐야 된다는 논리가 되죠. 그런데 최근 이 빠른 년생이 학교 일찍 들어가는거 없어졌다고 해요.
I think even Koreans understand that the levels of formalities in the korean language is difficult for foreigners to learn so don't worry if you still don't completely get it.
맞아요.. 근데 자기나라에서는 기분안 나쁜데 왜 기분나쁘냐고 그러고 제 친구가 만약그런다면 제가 사과하고 싶고 쪽팔일거 같아요.. 당연히 짜증나고 화날거 같네요 ㅜㅜ 까뿔지 마라..하고 어린애들이 그러기도 하고 또 놀이터에서 아가가 미끄럼틀타려고 하면 더 나이많은 애가 와서 내가 더 나이가 많다며 확 밀치고 뭐가 잘못됐는지도 모르고 부모도 그렇고 이건 좀 다른이야기인데 시어머니가 좀 안 좋은 경우도 많고 사돈,동서,형부..너무 많아서 저도 잘 모르겠고 그런거 생각하다가 하고 싶은말도 못하고 불편하고 여자쪽이 남자쪽 동생,누나,형 한테 도련님,아가씨 라고 하는것도 너무 아직도 남자가 위 인거 같아 바꿨으면 좋겠어요...
나는 지금 나이세는거 좋은데..ㅋㅋㅋㅋ 다같이 1살먹는거 재밌고 좋음. 약간 헷갈리는것두 있기야 하겠지만 한국에서는 한국나이로 하구 외국에서는 외국나이로 하면 되징 만나이도 딱히 헷갈리는것 같지도 않은데ㅋㅋㅋㅋ 걍 생일안지나면 2살차이고 생일지나면1살차이인것 뿐이잖어 빠른은 조금 헷갈려두 뭐 외국도 학교진학같은거 하게되면 이런 문제 있지 않나? 우리나라도 빠른같은건 교육이라던지 학교진학할때 문제가 되는거지, 일상생활에서는 딱히... 나이로 존중하는것두 우리나라문화고, 오히려 외국나이로 하게되면 더 헷갈릴것 같은데.. 어제 친구였던 애가 내일은 언니/오빠가 되는거잖아ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ 뭐 친구끼리는 신경 안쓰겠지만 처음만난사람들과는 좀 헷갈리는 문제도 있고 사회적으로도 좀 혼란스러울듯..
In Spanish you also have respectful/formal speaking and informal speaking. Depending on the country, one will be more used than the other. When I came to the US it felt so weird saying "you" to people I just met, specifically older people, so in my mind I was saying "usted" instead of "tú" everytime I said "you".
Oh my god yess. I was born and raised in Cali, but I hate it when people speak to a stranger and older people with "tú ", its "usted". Especially of someone comes up to my mom, even if they're the same age, and uses "tú" I get so offended. 😤
첫째로 한국은 아이가 생기고 배에서 품고있는 시간도 '삶'이라고 생각해서 태어난 순간부터 1살이 되는거에요 ㅎㅎㅎ 그리고 한국에서도 3살전에는 생후 몇개월이라고 이야기해요 태어난지 2살이어도 그렇게 표현하진않구요 ㅎㅎㅎㅎ 생후 2일이 되는 거죠 ㅎㅎㅎ 그리고 두번째 빠른은 음력을 기준으로 하는 거에요 설날이 음력으로 1월1일 인건 아시죠? 띠가 음력1월1일 기준으로 바뀌는 거라서 같은 띠끼리 동갑으로 본거죠 ㅎㅎㅎ 이건 많이 헷갈리실것같아요 ㅎㅎ 한국에서는 띠가어떻게되? 하고 나이를 확인하기도 해요 ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ 좀 올드스타일 이긴 하지만요 ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ
When you’re speaking Korean, the culture is included (I’m kyopo btw). Why would you suddenly ignore that culture just because someone is a foreigner? If you’re speaking Korean and using jondenmal is a form of respect to people older than you in that culture, why would you not speak to foreigners with that same respect. Even if some foreigners do not care if you use banmal, that’s something you should ask and receive their consent for. Just like when you’re talking to a Korean and when you get closer ask if you can malkka (use banmal instead). It’s not something that should be assumed.
I can f relate to this s. I'm a foreigner in Italy and There is the same using of formal and informal in daily conversation. However, in the speaking language they don't care if you're foreigner or not, they use it in the correct way with all people. Another thing when I talk to my friends originally coming from the same country as I am, who are living in Italy for so many years as I am, we speak directly in Italian for most of the time, and not with our mother-tongue language, don't know why.. The argument is so interesting and fascinating as it is O.O.. Love & Peace.
Sam is totally right. I never understand how William can be 5 ? He is only 3 years old baby. It is totally confusing. If you have birthday in summer, your age is 2 years older suddenly. All of the world use international age system except Korea. When Koreans did disrespectful behaviors, it hurts foreigners. Please be equal to every people.
As a same context, it is really awkward to call "You" to who is older than me in English cuz I'm Korean. It feels impolite to me. And also, we never use last name only but in western, they do. So I always confused which one was polite to say. It just so different.
In the western world, just drop the first name. Ex: Hello, Mr. Smith and NOT, hello, Mr. John Smith. If by mistake, you include the first name, it would not be seen as impolite.
so in English there are ways to make the sentence less formal. but not at the level how it is with Korean. unless we bring thou and thee. but those are obsolete words
Matty Bruno Lucas Zenere Salas basically the discussion was about the need to not automatically talk informally in Korean if the other person is a foreignor. Korean has clear formal and informal language. They are used depending on who you’re talking to. You would talk formally to anyone who is your senior(especially age) and informally to anyone younger than you. A direct ‘you’ in korean is informal language. You’d never refer to anyone older than you by the word ‘you’. Using it to someone who is your senior is just really rude. It’s the same thing as in english when you meet your friend’s parents. You’d never call your friend’s parents by their first name.
@@jame254 just to add on, (since I don't imagine everyone knows this) the "thou/thee" forms were once English's informal pronouns, with "you" serving as the formal. Now that it's archaic, it /sounds/ formal, but it was used in the opposite manner.
Its so interesting to see how annoyed Dave was because that girl wouldn't extend the same level of respect to him as she did to the other mutual friends. I guess when you live somewhere for so long and have assimilated into their culture, you expect others to stop looking at you as an outsider. If I were in his place, I would be annoyed not only because we were in Korea but also because in my culture we have similar values when it comes to communication with those older than you (definitely not as strict as Koreans though, there's still room for flexibility). In my country we use both English and my mother tongue simultaneously (Hindi), so I can get away with not using the correct terms sometimes lol.
Yeah, it's a bit of a shame imo. It seems as though if you aren't born in Korea to Korean parents, you will always be seen as a foreigner, even though you might be a citizen and lived there for most of your life. I could be wrong though, it's just a feeling I get, I don't have experience. This will probably change eventually, but I imagine it will take place over generations as the world becomes more multi-cultural.
I get it 😂😂 there are some things I say in English to my dad that I wouldn’t be able to say in Korean. In Dave’s case, I think it’s because language implies (at least in Korea) the level of respect, and automatically choosing informal language feels disrespectful. Especially because he lives there now!
Omg I totally understand! I live in Korea and I get so annoyed when I meet some Koreans and they don’t speak formally to me. They always say oh well it’s because you are a foreigner and you don’t have age culture then I’m like well we are speaking Korean and we are trying to follow Korean culture. Like if they are speaking to me in English then I don’t care but if it’s in Korean then I expect us to follow the age system.
언어와 문화의 신묘함이란 ㅎㅎ 데이브가 말한 그 반말한 어린여자는 진짜 생각이없네요🤔 그리고 데이브님이 원식이형한테 반말할때의 상황도 무릎을 탁치게되는 상황이네요😮 영상보면서 궁금해진게 두분다 모국어가 영어권인데 평소라면 서로영어로 존칭어없이 얘기할분들이 데이브님이 갑자기 한국어로 "야 샘 이따 뭐먹을래??" 이러면 샘님 반응이 어떨지 궁금하네요 ㅋㅋ 갑자기 사고회로 정지가 오실지 야 데이브 형한테 반말하냐? 바로 한국인처럼 이러실지ㅋㅋㅋ
Thank you Dave and Sam for going over this. I’ll surely keep these ideas in mind for when I plan to go visit Korea. It sucks how foreigners get treated that way and hopefully this video opens native Korean’s eyes to this discomfort. It’s not cool being disrespected in any language.
나도 나보다 나이가 어린사람들한테는 처음보는 사람이라면 존칭을 써주는데, 하여튼 우리나라뿐만이 아니라, 외국에서도 나이문화가 있기는 하겠지만, 그래도 우리나라가 제일 심하지않나하는 생각이 드네요..... 특히, 나이 차이가 많이 날수록 상대방이 아무리 100% 잘못을 해도 함부로 마음대로 이야기를 못하죠.....
Straight off the bat, my thought is that its the language that matters, not the country If a Korean spoke to you in English, then informal is fine (since formal is only used in business/professional settings) but if they spoke in Korean, it should be formal (because its inbuilt IN the language itself - formal is respectful, informal on the first meeting is extremely rude)
It's kind of weird that some people specifically don't use formal for foreigners. I'm from the Netherlands, and even though it's by no means to the same degree as in Korea, we also have a formal way to address someone. There's "je" for the informal "you" and "u" for formal. "U" is generally used for people that are older than you, and my parents have always stressed for me to be formal since it's respectful. When you get to know someone really well, they might tell you to use informal. Now, pre-covid I was an intern at a firm and their company policy for all employees is not to use the formal form. That was SO difficult for me. Because I didn't know anyone very well, and they we're all quite a bit older than me, so even though they told me not to be formal I felt like such a rascal addressing them informally. Like my body was physically struggling to say it, because I felt I was disrespecting them. So to me that person not addressing you formally because you are a foreigner really shows an utter lack of respect for foreigners in particular on their part.
I think it needs to be emphasized that the point “We’re in Korea” focuses on the culture that you’re immersed BECAUSE of the geographical location. The actual geographical location isn’t the focus. Otherwise, it’s like telling someone in the U.S. to only speak English because “You’re in America.” (Just to be clear, the U.S. doesn’t have an official language, but English is the perceived official language.) Anyway, this video brings such an interesting topic to light!! I think your points and feelings are totally valid, esp as someone who is living in said culture.
나이에 대한 계급이 생긴 것은 일제 영향이 큰 것으로 알고 있습니다. 과거 조선시대에 살았던 위인중에도 나이를 초월한 친구 같은 사이를 유지한 분도 계십니다. "오성과 한음" 이란 이야기를 모르는 분들은 없을겁니다. 실제로 한음은 이덕형 이라는 조선시대에 신하 중 문신 이었고 부수찬, 부교리, 이조좌랑, 동부승지, 대사성, 예조참판, 대사헌, 병조판서, 이조판서, 우의정, 영의정을 지낸 인물이죠 오성은 이항복 이라는 인물로 정치, 행정, 외교를 하였던 인물로 오성과 한음 부르는 호 라고 하여 이 두 분을 절친으로 지냈던 인물이기에 동갑내기 친구라 생각 하는 사람도 많은데 이항복은 1556년도 생이며 이덕형은 1561년생으로 돌의 나이 차이는 5살 차이가 나지만 서로 단짝 친구 처럼 지낸 것으로 유명하죠 나이에 의한 계급은 일제의 잔재라고 하는 사람도 있습니다. 실제로 한국인들은 사회 친구라 해서 5살까지는 친구로 보는 사람들도 있습니다
I completely agree with you guys. It's really hard to put into words and it's really much deeper than just feeling left out because you're a foreigner. Languages have evolved based on cultural aspects which affects how we perceive a language. We attach ideas and especially emotions to a language. You can't really separate these aspects without a language sounding/feeling unnatural or rude. I speak Spanish and English fluently and I'm still learning Korean. There are just things I would never say in one language that might be perfectly normal to say in another. It's just the way it is.
Hi Dave! This is one of the best "serious" contents you have. I just liked the way these things were discussed by two foreigners who has lived their lives in Korea for a long time. Cheers to more videos! 🤩🤩
I think this depends on the person. For context, I have been living in Korea for more than 5 years and speak fluent Korean, am married to a Korean, and like to think that I am pretty well integrated into the culture. I am a researcher at SNU hospital, and have never had this experience at work (people use 존댓말 with me,). However, this 반말 situation happens to me frequently in social settings. Dave gave the example of his female friend not wanting to call him "Dave Oppa" and him being offended. I respect Korean culture and age "rules" since I live here, but I personally feel a little uncomfortable with people referring to me with those title since I am not Korean, and not only don't mind if they don't use those titles, but prefer it. I ask my friends to just call me by my first name, regardless of age. My family is from Argentina, and we have a very casual communication style and no such age culture, so maybe this plays a role in my perception of this issue. I honestly don't really favor Korea's age culture (I think that system of hierarchy makes it difficult for people to get close to eachother), but if I don't favor it and then go out of my way to make a big deal out of someone not calling me 누나 or 언니 or -씨 or whatever, I'm playing right into it. Just my perspective!
Bandito I think this is just a different perspective as well. To me, respect does not equal discipline. In my culture, kids truly respect their elders despite the lack of an age-dependent system like there is in Korea.
the difference here is that you have asked them to call you by your first name. implying that at the start of being friends, they could be polite with you and showing proper respect whether in their behavior or manner of speech towards you. so you requested of them that they don't have to do that. that means both of you agreed how to speak to each other moving forward. if someone was disrespecting you because you were different/foreigner right from the beginning, you probably wouldn't want to be around that person or continue to grow a close friendship with them. this girl skipped all that. she one-sidedly went forward and refuse the proper approach even though they are talking in korean.really immature and rude. in dave's story, he didn't have a chance to say anything similar to "oh, we are close friends. even though we are clearly different ages, you dont have to use formal speech-just call me by name and speak comfortably." the girl directly from the beginning singled him out and used overly friendly tone to the point of disrespect. sounds to me, they were not at the level close friends yet and this was a group of friends that was in a casual setting but not completely comfortable with each other. like they were not total strangers but still more closer than acquaintances but doesn't feel like they were close enough to be good friends because any real friend would not ignore another friend's feelings and thoughts. she was really not acknowledging it. it's really telling that when dave asked her about it, she still wasn't considering his feelings and dismiss the idea of showing a little respect to him. she continued to use informal speech and stubborn about how she address him. what she should've done was say "oh sorry, i didn't mean to disrespect you. i didn't realize i was being insensitive" that would have been the right thing to do. it only became a bigger issue because she treated it so one-sided and solely because "you're a foreigner so it doesn't matter anyway."
@@GenieGin13 I am facing a similar issue now. I met and got close with this one girl who is significantly younger than me and we speak in 반말. But, she has a habit of calling me 너 which I am not okay with. I don't wanna hear 너 but on the other hand I don't wanna be like "um could you call me 오빠" because it's cringe af and i don't wanna say that. it's such a gray issue and I feel out of place being a foreigner and acting like a 꼰대 but at the same time I feel really uncomfortable hearing 너 and being told "you're a foreigner" feels like what i learned about following the age culture and respecting the formalities is just throwing everything away.
@Dr. K I agree with the age system making it hard for people to be closer. To me, titles should just be titles and that's it. It should have nothing to do with making it harder or being easier for people to be closer.
I really understand what Sam is saying about the developmental differences with Korean age vs what the actual age is. I currently teach in Korea and my students are 6 years old Korean age. When I first started teaching them I couldn't figure out why the behavior and development was SO different. Then I found out my youngest student was born December 31. There are 3 other students who were born in December too. The developmental gap is so big between those younger ones and the other ones.
This is so true. I learned for a long time korean and the culture. So when i speak to someone in formal korean and they speak to me speak straight informal... i just wanna give up. Like if i try to respect you, why you belittle me??
in my opinion either you speak with foreign or not, if you use english or non-hierarchical languages, it's okay to use the informal terms as long it's still respectful BUT if you use hierarchical language you should use formal terms cause otherwise it would be rude, except the person ask you to drop the formality.
Same problem here in a Japan. I’m manager and the staff below me use informal language. Just because I’m a foreigner they think it’s not needed. I speak fluent japanese... same in daily life. Same for daily life. People also use the word GAIJIN like it’s no big deal.
Planet Black Cat i noticed it’s a common thing in China, Korea and Japan to use formal/informal way to talk to someone older while in English it doesn’t really make any difference 🤔 maybe it’s in asian culture in general
Taylor TayTay I know. I’ve been living in Japan for almost 12 years. I lived in China for 1 year. But when they talk to me in Japanese they should show some respect. I’m their Manager and at least 10 years older.
@@crowns.a2580 In ancient China these rules used to be pretty rigid as well, which I guess is how it influenced modern day Korean and Japanese society to be; but pretty much in the Chinese language we have abandoned most of the differences between formal/informal speech and of course royal court speech (in Chinese we have specific words used by the emperor eg 朕 to refer to himself, 陛下 in Korean: jeonha, in Japanese: heika, used by subjects of the emperor to refer to him etc.); the only one we mainly keep now is 你 (Ni; "you" informal) vs 您 (Nin; "you" formal) and a few other sentences used in formal occasions; in ancient Chinese there were many other words like 汝 (Ru), 伊 (Yi); and even some self-depreciating terms (eg 奴才、奴婢; "literally your slave, your loyal subject", 在下、鄙人 "this one who is beneath you") to show respect to whoever you are talking to. Hierarchy rules based on age in China and other Chinese communities worldwide have been pretty much relaxed nowadays, in part owing to the past few hundred years of history where Chinese culture has been extensively destroyed by successive waves of Manchu (Qing dynasty) occupation, the communist revolution including the Great leap forward and the eradication of the four 'olds' (old customs, old beliefs, culture, religion etc.).
둘 다 영어권에서 왔는데도 샘 씨는 영어로 얘기할 때는 복성(abdominal sound), 한국어는 후성(throat sound)으로 나눠서 소리 내는데 (한국어 쓸때가 목소리 톤이 더 높아요!) 데이브씨는 두 언어 모두 한국어식으로 후성을 주로 쓰면서 영어 한국어 같은 높낮이가 되는게 신기해요.
It could be that they don’t want to assume you speak English so they use Korean since you are in Korea? I agree it’s a little weird if you already know you’re both American/Australian and don’t use your native/common tongue (unless you are meeting to practice Korean or the purpose of the meeting is about Korea/Korean)
Being asian & raised with asian values myself (e.g. being courteous to ppl older than u), i think it's just common sense to immediately speak politely to someone if they're older, EVEN IF that person is a "foreigner"... Like if i had called my expat teachers in high school by their names, i would've been smacked man 😂
The US is a diverse nation and we don’t really have this sense of “foreigner” based on looks because generally everyone looks different and can be American. Korea is generally not that diverse and Koreans who use informal speech to people who look foreign should get out of that “foreigner” mentality. If Korea was more diverse more people would use respectful language to different people, but regardless if Korea is more diverse or not, you’re still speaking the same language and you need to speak with the culture that comes with it no matter to who or where. Plus many other languages and cultures have respect integrated as well.
@@Flying-Chicken yeah but the point is that korea is still not close to being as diverse as the united states. it's not a bad thing necessarily, just that it could lead to a more closed mindset
Bandito Bandito no I mean in many big cities where there's a diverse population. I know there are Xenophobic people but I'm not talking about them. People generally don't assume you're a foreigner just by the way you look (color of your skin, hair, etc) because they cant tell if someone grew up in the US bc more often than not a "foreign" looking person in the US would be a 2nd generation of higher resident. (there are things you can wear that people identify your origin but based on race, no) And when you're a foreigner without a foreign English accent it reinforces the idea that you are automatically assumed you grew up in the US. In Korea, even if you have no accent, in David's case, people generally automatically assume you grew up somewhere else and close minded people won't use respect because they're "foreign". It's just different culture and some closed minded people in Korea need to realize that it doesn't matter where the other person is from, you're speaking the same language.
J C even though most Korean's are aware of other countries, within their Korea, they're not that ethnically diverse compared to other countries. 96% of Korea is Korean, while 76% of America is white. The remaining non-white percentage is concetrated in bigger cities like New York, LA, Houston (all around 40-50% white). Usually Koreans assume foreign looking people are foreigners (which is an understandable assumption) and treat them as such. But usually, a culturally exposed American like in big cities won't usually assume someone is foreign. All I'm trying to say is that the close minded Korean people need to realize that they should not change how they speak to someone if they're from a different country and not to treat a foreigner differently than their other friends.
In German, there is also a difference between formal you 'Sie' and informal you 'du'. Strangers are always addressed with formal you for respect, unless e.g. you're fellow students (so even a 5th grader wouldn't be formal to a 12th grader - if they are, the 12th grader looks hella old. Or at university, almost every student addresses each other with informal you). Informal you is used for friends, family and people you've known for longer. Technically, you may only use the informal you to strangers/definitely older people when they offer it to you. It usually gets complicated with the parents of friends because sometimes they're lowkey offended if the friends address them formally (making them old/distancing yourself from them). It gets pretty funny when people obviously try not to use ANY pronoun and its properly conjugated verb to avoid using the wrong one, even though it's not possible to just drop pronouns in German sentences (like it would be possible in Korean or Spanish etc.). It's either a sentence like "can I have that salt?" or "can one give me that salt". The first one isn't suspicious, but if you hear the second one you know what those people are struggling with. Plus just turning it around and saying "I" doesn't work in every situation.
I feel like Chinese culture is actually very similar: with the age, and like terms for people older than you. I’m not a foreigner but I was born and I live overseas, so it’s confusing when I have to go to China to visit family, especially with the older relatives.
I met a Korean guy in my Japanese class in Japan, so we're speaking in Japanese. He's a school year behind me but we later found out he's actually my age (and a few months older). He got annoyed when I spoke to him in polite desu-masu form lol. He said, "you're senpai so why are you speaking so formally". But to me it's just that I don't know Korean, I'm not speaking to him in Korean, my culture doesn't care about age difference much, and neither of us are Japanese. My Japanese isn't perfect either. Polite form is the easiest one for me and I use it on pretty much everyone. It's just, polite? Idk why he'd get so annoyed.
I guess it goes to show how language is interwined with its culture and social values. But yeah, when in doubt, just be polite (which should be the automatic way when meeting someone honestly).
@@wow88121 I think there might be a general problem of Koreans' way/perception of interacting with foreigners (or to people of different nationality they aren't familiar with)? I suppose it goes to show the unintended ignorance that happens when dealing with an unfamiliar culture.
Seems like he projected his culture on you! Maybe the difference between people who just want to learn the language and people who learn the language as part of a culture. (IMHO, I think the latter is correct. I mean he’d probably be off-put if a foreigner spoke informally in Korean to him if they’re not close.)
@@wow88121 I suppose he thinks we're classmates and got partnered up as a group often, so we aren't strangers. I always spoke in polite form to him, maybe he was frustrated all that time and decided to confront me 😅 he looked so annoyed that day. It became awkward to talk to him ever since though... And deep down I don't feel the need to follow his social tradition as a non-Korean not in Korea 🤷♀️
I agree with Sam. It’s more on the location and language which is a huge part of a culture. For me, it’s just natural to have the age hierarchy in mind when I speak Korean to anyone who speaks the same.
I feel like in English we just completely change the words when we're being formal/polite. "Can I get you a drink?" goes to "Could I offer you a refreshment?" real quick. But yeah, the whole "You're a foreigner and shouldn't be so upset about it." has been getting old in quite a few areas.
Thank you for showimg both Kor and eng subs at the same time. It's best for learning and not enough channels do it. I'm subscribing just for that and I love that you go back and forth speaking both languages.
It makes since that it would frustrate people, because it is disregarding feelings, and just being generally disrespectful. Because while English doesn't have a formal form, you wouldn't go up to some old lady and go "yo dude this party is lit", like you would to a close friend or someone your own age cause it's rude.
"In the west we are all friends". Try and say that in Russia or another Slavic country. In Russian (and my mother-tongue Ukrainian) there is a formal way of speaking, but it might be a little weird. You refer to people you speaking to as "you" but in plural "you"(вы, ви). Also, there are a lot of various expressions used in the formal language, but that sort of thing present in most languages. But, unlike in other European languages, this formal thing is completely based on age . So, even after a certain amount of time, there is no way you might speak to a person in informal, unless this person is family (close relatives, husband/wife parents not included), friend, or has allowed you to speak infomal to him/her (happens sometimes). But there will be no way we put a title "brother, sister" to our friend or speak formally within the family, like Koreans do. Oh, and one more thing. Even though this formal thing is based on age, we would never ask the age of a person, its considered impolite. We just know by the visual.
Basically everyone ages at the same time in Korea :) regardless of the day you were born, you all age up on Jan 1st. In addition, when you are born you're 1, not 0, so Koreans are numerically 1 year older than other cultures who don't do this.
In Korea when you’re born, they say you’re a year old because you’re in your first year of living. It’s possible to be “two years older” than your Western age because it could be before your birthday. For example, let’s say your birthday is 6/6/2000. On 4/5/2002, your western age would be 1, but you’re on your third year of living (2000, 2001, 2002)! So technically in Korean, age is not “how old,” but more “what year of life.” 😅
It is really confusing at first, but it all depends on what month you were born. As explained in one of the replies, everyone is considered a year old at birth. And then, everyone adds another year to their age during the new year (Jan 1). Let's take William as an example. When he was born on July 2016, he's 1 year old. On January 1 2017, he turns 2. He stays 2 years old for the whole year even after his real first birthday on July 2017. On January 1 2018, he becomes 3 years old when he's literally only 1.5 years of age. Which is why I noticed, on TROS, they use months to tell the age of kids below 3 years old (18 mos).
I think this is one of the most interesting videos on your channel. I think it’d be incredibly rude to right off the bat speak to someone in 반말, foreigner or not. I’d be really upset if I were to experience this. I agree with Sam that there should be some middle ground. Not gonna lie, when Dave imitated what that one girl said I was trigggerrrred.
I live in Japan so there’s formal/informal and since I speak Japanese I don’t like it when people find out I’m a foreigner and drop the formalities...worst was when I was a customer (Japan takes customer service very seriously) and they started speaking informally like...I’m using formal with you???? 😔😔😔
![[#인기급상승] 미처 몰랐던 대한 외국인들의 고뇌 ㅋㅋㅋ🤣 K-외국인 서열 정리하는 귀한 장면 | #살아있네!살아있어](/img/1.gif)
Is it me or Sam lost a lot of weight
yea he recently said in an episode of The Return of Superman that he lost 14kgs
Is it me or Sam lost a lot of weight and his voice changed too 🤨
I love chubby Sam but this one is not that bad
@@nicole5166 woh i didnt know that :O
A LOT OF WEIGHT... he already looked good but now he looks really really good!
off topic but i rlly wanna see dave interact with william and bentley
Tbh yessss
Up
Yesssss
PLEASE
YES
처음본 사람한테 외국인이라고 반말을 해야된다는 뇌를 가지고있으면 어떤 인생을 산거냐
진짜 일반적인 사고방식이랑 다른 사고방식을 가진사람들은 진짜 신기함
혼동이 아니라 외국인들이 한국어 어설퍼서 반말해도 존댓말을 써야죠. 제 경험인데 알게된지 얼마안된 저보다 어린 외국교환학생 친구가 반말할때 제가 계속 존댓말하니, 그친구가 왜 계속 같은 '요'라는걸 하냐고 물어보길래 존댓말 이라고 설명해줬어요. 그 뒤에 어학당선생님께 물어봤는지, 형이라고도 하고 존댓말도 해주더라구요.
상대방은 어설퍼도 되지만, 우리가 한국말과 문화를 바로 가르쳐줘야 그 친구에게도 도움이 되는게 아닌가 싶습니다.
@@kidokim2855다만, 외국인이므로 형이라고 할지 이름 부를지는 외국인의 선택으로 해 주었으면 좋겠습니다. 다른 한국인들과 대화할 때는 주의가 필요하겠지만요.
외국인이라고 함부로 반말하지 좀 맙시다..
그런 인간들이 외국인이 지들한테 반말하면
게거품물며 뒷목잡음 ㅋ
두 분 그런 몰상식한 인간들 때문에
우리나라에 정나미 떨어졌을 법도 한데
어떻게 잘 정착하고 지내셔서 다행이네요.
프사가........ㅋㅋㅋㅋ
한국식 예의로 안할거면 그 나라 사람 예의로 하던가... 다짜고짜 너 You라고 하는 "외국인"이 어딨음 Mister라고 하던가 Mr.해밍턴 이라고 해야지. 샘이라고 이름으로만 부르는 것도 친해진 후에 하는거고, You라고 부르는건 상당히 권위적인 태도임. 우리나라도 똑같잖음. 꼭 못 배운 사람들이 자기 무례를 Cool이라는걸 들이밀면서 덮으려고 함. "야 (내가) 그럴 수도 있지", "뭐 그거가지고 삐지냐" 이런 애들
Matty Bruno Lucas Zenere Salas
The age that can drive is 18+ old (legal age)in Korea. This age is same with other countries.
We use two ages.
One is the thing Dave and Sam dealed in this video(used in common), and another one is a legal age.
@Matty Bruno Lucas Zenere Salas 웃긴게 법적인 효력이 적용되는건 전부 만나이로 표현합니다. 한국나이는 그냥 일상생활에서만 씁니다.
옛날에 공단에서 알바 한적 있는데 거기선 외국인 노동자들에게 나이고 뭐고 상관 없이 무조건 100% 반말이던데 ㅎㅎㅎ
심지어 호칭이 야, 너, 이런 말도 아니고 야임마, 이새끼야 ㅋㅋㅋ
외국인은 한국어의 반말 높임말 체계를 모를거라 봐서 그러는 걸까..
아니면 죄다 베트남, 필리핀, 캄보디아, 방글라데시같은 후진국 약소국에서 온 사람들이라 무시해서 그런 건지..
미국이나 유럽처럼 강대국이나 선진국 사람이 공장에 일하러오면 어떻게 말할까.. 물론 당연히 미국, 유럽에서 한국공장에 일하러 오는 사람이 없으니 잘은 모르겠지만
When they talking in English i still read they subs lol
The*
same 😅
It's a great habit. Like i want to read the korean subtitles to improve my korean but i also end up reading the english ones
Omg yes and when i realise i feel so dumb😂😂
Lmao same
“Gotta make sure I heard that right” lmfaooooo
진짜 같은 한국인인데 한국에서도 초면이면 존댓말 쓰는 게 맞는 데 나이부심 갖고 그러는 거 은근 있어요. (저는 초면에 만난 사람은 그 사람이 누구든 존댓말 써요.) 한국 나이... 한국 법적으로는 만 나이를 쓰는 데 관습적으로 한국 나이를 쓰는 편이죠... ㅠㅠ 저도 그거 은근 골치 아파해요.
I took Korean language classes during 4 years and they never told us informal speech. Which tend to be awkward with my Korean friend who is 10 years younger than me. He is like 'noona why are you so polite with me use banmal' and I'm like 'I cAnT'
MOOD even when im messaging someone who ive agreed to speak in banmal with i have to catch myself going back to jeondaemal sbffhdkfng
Me too, my teachers always taught me formal korean
I learned korean too but i was taught formal first and then informal as i advanced.. it was a part of the syllabus for me
I'm reading the Talk to me in Korean books and they introduce both 존댓말 and 반말 in the beginning of the first book, but they clarify that jondeamal ends with "yo" and "nida", and that you should be learning jondeamal first and only use banmal with close friends/family 🙂
Since I'm still learning the language I use jondeamal if I'm writing something in Korean to a Korean person I've just started chatting with, even if they're younger than me, I'll only try to not use jondeamal if they say I don't have to be so formal.
Still learning how to not use the "yo" and "nida" tho 😝
I honestly struggled to speak in 반말 for the first year of living in Korea, despite actually speaking Korean generally pretty well. I hate when other foreigners act like it's too hard to use 존댓말 because like...no??? At least add 요.
'빠른'년생은 앞의년도 애들이랑 같이 학교를 가기 때문에 학교에선 선배행세해도
사회나오면 '몇년생'이냐가 중요하지 '빠른'은 필요없어지더라구요. 괜히 족보만 꼬입니다.ㅠ-ㅠ
빠른 제도 사라진지가 언젠뎈ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ
@@블리-x2g 2007년 사라져서 빠른폐지 된 애들은
사회에 이제 나오기 시작했죠.
학교에서 사라졌다고 사회에서 사라진거 아닙니다.
학번따지면 빠른월생 동갑애들이 선배노릇 하고 있어요.
전 3개월차이인데 언니라고 부르는 사람도 있네요.
제가 친구먹으면 그 쪽 그룹지인들 전부 족보 꼬이니까요.
96년 태어난 빠른생인데 어머니가 일부러 동갑이랑 같이 입학시켰어요. 사회에서 95년 만나서 서로 말 놓자고 합의하면 친구들인 96년들은 뻘쭘... 그리고 빠른 97들은 96이랑 말놓으면 내가 뻘쭘...
저는 99년 2월생임에도 엄마가 99년생이랑같이 학교를 보냈는데 문제는 저보다 늦게태어났는데 빠른99인 경우에 형대접해야할지 친구먹어야할지 진짜 난감하거든요... 만나이쓰면 상관없는데 한국에서만 쓰는 세는나이때문에 이게 무슨... ㅠ 이런것때문인지 빠른년생은 2003년생부터 폐지됬어요
저 99인데 밀레니엄 베이비애들이랑 같이 수업들었던 1인입니다. 빠른 00실제로 제가 학교다닐때 많이 봤어요.
I guess the reason why you guys feel offended when a younger korean speaks informally in korean to you but you're okay with that in english is because language shapes the way we think. And culture is so closely linked to language🤷
THIS DESERVE TO BE PINNED.
sims city I was in the US and met a younger Korean American who immediately spoke informal to me in Korean. I was so pissed. It is like when millennials don’t give up their seat on the subway making pretend they don’t see older people looking at their damn cell phones.
@@hanabanana3365 right?! I saw this title on a ted talk's vid about this topic. I haven't watched the vid, but the title alone makes a lot of sense to me, like I think this way since then
@@christinedowd1820 yeah, like I had a friend from germany who's 10+ years older than me and we spoke casually to each other. But, being asian myself, I couldn't get used to being addressed informally by my junior in uni for a while. But the senior/junior hierarchy in my country isn't as strict as in korea imo
Dave ready to fight some kids 😂
Boomer behavior, he's becoming old
This is so relatable, I feel like Koreans sometimes underestimate foreigners living there and just started talking to us informally and it does a lot of times feel like theyre being disrespectful. And I agree with Sam, I still find korean age system to be so confusing and complicated x_x
In France, we have a formal system : "le vouvoiement". We use for the people we have to respect and we don't know well. If an unknown person speaks to me in the street with informal language, it's weird. So i can unterstand the japonese and korean linguistic system. But in France, it isn't with age. If we are close friend or family, we speak with informal system. It's more if i know or don't know this person. Exept with my husband's parents, i'm close but i speak to them with "vouvoiement" for the respect. But now, with 6 years of marriage, I want to try to speak to them in informal language because we are a family. But it's hard to change a habit, it's sounds weird when I say "tu" instead of "vous".
Japanese isn't with age either. its kinda like the Latin romance languages. but the Japanese take it step further with add 3 more levels, based on other criteria. but age isnt really one of them..
I was thinking the exact same thing. The fact that many things change in the language depending of if you use "vouvoiement" or "tutoiement".
Not a huge deal but it's interesting how you capitalized France but used lower case for Japanese and Korean. Kinda caught my attention since we're discussing formalities and all.
@@jwo122 It's a common mistake/habit for native french speakers, due to the fact that only proper names are capitalized in french. Could be perceived as belittling to some, like in Valérie's comment case, but i can assure you that their writing pattern follows the french rule that names take a capitalized letter (France) and adjectives don't (korean and japanese).
jw Maybe it's due to the french automatic correction ? I have the same problem. If I don't re-read it.
korea => Corée
japonese => Japonais
PS : Sorry for my english
샘형 살 많이 빠진거 같다
-좋아요 이만큼 받은건 또 첨이네-
외국인에게 반말하는걸 너무 많이 봐서, 정작 외국인들은 기분나빠하지 않을까 싶었는데, 역시 사람은 동양이나 서양이나 다 똑같네요. 결국 존대 자체가 문제가 아니라, 사회적으로 동등한 대우와 존중이 중요한것 같네요. 궁금한것 해결해서 좋았어요!
마지막에 나왔던 빠른년생이 생긴건 바로 나이 시스템과 학제 시스템의 불일치 때문이에요.
제가 학교를 입학해서 다닐 때까지만 했어도 1,2월 생들은 개학이 3월에 한다는 이유로 그 전해에 태어난 사람들과 같은 학년으로 묶여졌죠.
즉, 데이브씨 처럼 89년 1월이나 2월에 태어나면 88년 생과 같은 학년으로 묶이고,
89년에 태어나더라도 3월 이후에 태어나면 89년 부터 90년 2월 생까지 같은 학년으로 묶어서 이러한 문제가 생기게 되었죠.
(이게 사회에서도 문제가 되니까 제가알기로는 08년도부터 09년도 초등학교 입학생부터 1월생부터 12월생까지 입학하는 걸로 바꾼걸로 알고 있어요)
저도 91년 1월 생이라 학교에 입학하라는 서류를 받고 입학을 했는데 90년 생들과 같은 학년으로 초, 중, 고를 나오게 되었죠.
근데 이게 사회 나와서 대학교 와서 크게 문제가 되더라구요. 저는 크게 신경을 안썼는데 말이죠.
특히나 제가 처한 상황은 양쪽에서 잡아당겨 찢기는 상황이었어요.
저랑 같은 학년으로 12년을 지내온 애들한테는 너 왜 한 살 어려지려고 하냐라는 말을 듣고
대학교 1년 후배한테는 너 같은 91인데 내가 너한테 왜 형, 오빠라고 불러야되냐는 말을 들었죠.
빠른 년생도 결국 정부에서 정한 학제 시스템의 피해자인데 이렇게 양쪽에서 잡아당기는게 너무 힘들더라구요.
외국인이니까 이래도 된다 저래도 된다?
뇌가 없는건가?
우리나라에 살고있는 '사람'이다!
예의좀 지키자!
thank you
♡
그니까요 저도 한국인이지만 저 말 듣고 완전 충격받았어요,,,,외국인이라고 사람이 아닌 것도 아닌데 왜 존중을 안해주는 걸까요? 외국인이라도 한국인 대하듯이, 똑같이, 존중해줬으면 좋겠어요
Because Koreans are raised knowing this languagr hierarchy, for them to go out of their way to change their tone to a foreigner... just a piss take.
I'm still learning korean but even i am aware of the level of respect needed when meeting someone.
Yeah the two comments above yours are just like, "you've got to have a special mindset to speak informal to a foreigner you just met"
As a Korean I would like to point out that the levels of formality are a pain in the ass. I stick to two simple rules 1. no given names for those older or not friends and 2. yo at the end of sentences. If they are obviously younger or friends, informal it is.
Where I'm from, we have 2 different ways of saying "you", formal and informal.
Formal is mainly for strangers and older people, and informal mainly for friends and younger people.
I always make sure to start with formal, just to be respectful and on the safe side.
And THEN if they tell me "ah, just use informal. Makes me feel less old lol" or something, THEN I know I can use informal.
To use informal with someone right of the bat might give them a bad impression of you. Of course there are also people who don't care.
But the point is that, it isn't for me to decide if I want to use formal or informal with you, especially if I want to be respectful (and if they're older).
So I think that I would also feel put off if someone would use the same argument as in the video on me. Like, no, that's not for you to, just, decide, KID.
same
Immediately, if I were to speak with someone in Korean, I'd stick with formal too. Also, I feel like it shows the amount of effort you put in to genuinely learn the language.
현재 일본거주 8년차입니다. 같은 아시아사람이더라도 외국인이라는 이유로 한참어린사람에게 반말로 듣게되면 매우 기분나쁜데 심지어 양국 모두 존댓말, 반말이 공존하는데도 반말을 하는 경우가 너무 많았어요. 지금도 많이 있고요. 여러분들도 외국인보면 친해지고 싶은 마음은 알겠지만 너무 외국인인식을 가지고 다가가기보단 같은 형제로서 다가가는게 그 사람에게 배려해주는 것이라고 생각합니다.
타국들 똑같은 문화가 아니잖아요...영어를 못 하는 외국인도 있고 높임말이 있는 언어가 있잖아요.... 제가 영어 잘 못하는 외국인이고 제 언어는 그런 높임말이 있는 언어 중 하나이기 때문에, 제가 모르는 사람을 만날 때, 그리고 친하지 않을 때, 제 나라에서도 사람들이 서로 얘기할 때 처음엔 높임말부터 시작해야 해요..... 한국에서 마찬가지로...외국인이니까 저에게 반말로 얘기해야 해요?? 이런 사건이 몇 개가 있어서 그때 정말 슬펐어요....
그러게요. 당연한거라고 생각하고 있는데, 영상보니까 "비정상"적인 사람도 많아서 좀 놀랐네요
예의없고 생각없는 사람 많죠.. 그리고 외국인이라고 다 영어하는게 아니고 다 문화도 다르고 쓰는말도 다르고 외국인이라고 예의없이 아무한테나 막대하는거 아닌데 초면에 영어하거나 반말하고 엉겨붙는걸 쿨하다고 생각하는 사람도 있어요.. 한국사람들이 외국인 대해본적 없는사람 너무 많아서 존중을 어떻게 해야하는지 모르는거같아요
also, regarding "in the west" - that's such a generalisation, i'm from europe and there are hierarchical differences in my mother language (and other european languages i've studied as foreign languages in school) and you would never use the informal to address a stranger. so conflating english-speaking countries/cultures with non-english-speaking ones doesn't really help their argument
off topic but, Sam looks great!
I didn't even recognize Sam,he looks amazing! Bet he feels amazing too,losing all that weight,great job! Keep up the good work Dave,sending good vibes from Croatia
Korea is not the only country where people add one or two years to their age. Malaysian Chinese do it too. Ours is more complicated in that our chinese not only includes an extra year that accounts for our time in the womb but it follows the chinese calander. However, it is easier because there is practically no use and most people don't care about their chinese age anymore and default to standard age. But Malaysians (regardless of ethnicity) count age by new year (1 January) rather than birthday.
e.x.
I was born in June 1996.
Starting from 1 January 2020, I would tell people I'm 24 even though I'm technically 23 until my birthday in June.
My chinese age is 25 after chinese new year in february
진짜 제가 하고싶은 말을 두분이서 다하시네요 참 많이 공감됨니다.
저도 빠른년생인데 친구들한테는 족보 브레이커라고 욕먹었지요
아니, 동창생도 아니고 사회에서 만났고
같은해에 태어났는데 형,동생 하라고?
게다가 친구랑 그사람이랑 아무런 접점도 없는데 왜 내가 욕먹고 족보꼬인다는 소리 들어야하는지!
진짜로 학교동창아니고 사회에서 만났다면
빠른 안따졌으면 좋겠네요
Having levels of respect is in a characteristic of Korean culture and therefore, it's ingrained in Korean language as well. Why should foreigners be excluded from it just because we are foreigners? It should apply to anyone who's speaking, listening or simply being talked about in the language right? Languages like English may not specifically require you to use formal words, sentences or conjugations to make it formal but we still talk in a respectful way to people that needs to be respected.
Hacky i agree!
Yep, language and its cultural norms should apply to everyone who is speaking, including age hierarchy for both Koreans and foreigners.
나이 문제나 빠른 년생 문제는 다 학생때 존댓말 존칭 문화 때문에 생긴거예요. 당연히 생일이 지나야 나이를 먹는 다는걸 알지만 1월1일로 나이를 일괄적으로 먹게 만든건 학생들 때문이에요. 예를 들어서 4월생이 있고 11월 생이 있다고 칩니다. 같이 입학했고 친구니까 반말을 하겠죠. 3월까지는. 그런데 4월생이 생일이 지나면 형이 되잖아요. 그럼 존댓말을 쓰고 형이라고 불러야 하잖아요.. 이상하죠? ㅋㅋ 빠른도 마찬가지입니다. 친구들끼리 존칭에 변화가 생기면 이상하잖아요..~
3월에 새학기가 시작하는데 지난해 1월 1일부터 12월 31일 출생자들을 새학기에 받아야 되는데. 법을 만드는 사람들은 만나이를 따져서 작년3월부터 올3월 생을 입학시킨 거죠. 그래서 빠른이 생긴거예요. 1-2월 생들은 사실 나이는 어리지만 같은 반 친구니까 반말을 하는 거고요.
대학에 가면 어느정도 해결이 됩니다. 재수 삼수생도 있고 하니까. 외국인은 빠른을 이야기 할 필요가 전혀 없어요. ㅎㅎ한국에서 중고등 학교를 다니지 않았다면요. 요즘은 어떻게 바뀌었는지 모르겠네요. 대학 졸업을 하고 나면 나이 보다는 출생년도나 띠를 물어보죠.~
I've been learning Korean for about 8/9 months now and my teacher is *always* saying stuff like "oh this thing we just learned is only to use if you're close with someone" or "you absolutely have to speak to older people in this way as it's respectful" and then when I'm practicing Korean on HelloTalk or something I have people right off the bat speaking informally to me because I'm a foreigner or because we "don't have formal language in English", I can't help but feel disrespected, because I've been told so much "you have to speak in XYZ way to show respect to the other person" - it can be a little frustrating haha!
The thing is people use Korean differently on the Internet. On many sites or apps, it's not actually considered rude to use informal speech to strangers. So it might've been just the app you were using, not because you were a foreigner. Even on this video, you can see many Korean comments are in informal.
yup get them same thing with Japanese, its like you don't have it, now unless they are learning Spanish which has formal cases or Russian, then that is a different story. they will use what Japanese call keigo. though its the younger generation that does it, from what i have seen. if we are around the same age they use 1st level of politeness. but after a while the longer you know them they use plain form. though it is for other reasons. when i learned Korean though to me it look like the younger generation did it more often than the older.. which would confuse me.
ㅋㅋyes 로마에 가면 로마법을 따라야쥬. 내말이 그말인데 바로 쌤씨가 얘기했네요. 외국인이라도 한국에 있으면 오빠 맞지요. 정말....'외국인'이라고 선을 긋고 대하는게 느껴지는 것 같아서 I feel your frustration
반대로 저는 외국사는데 여기서 한국말 배우는 친구들이랑 만나면 저한테 자꾸 언니라고 불러서 좀 어색해요.
맞네 언어에따라 문화도 같이 포함되니까 그렇게 해야하네
그리고 초면에는 존댓말을 사용해서 상대방을 존중해야하죠
Oh Wow. Sam looks waay more younger👏
빠른 년생은 1월과 2월 출생자일 경우 8세(한국나이)가 아니라 7세에 초등학교를 들어가는 제도가 있어서 그랬어요.
그러면 그 아이는 자기보다 한살 많은 사람들과 학교 동기가 되는데,
이 경우 자기 동갑인 친구들은 자신의 학교 동기들보다 한살 어린 친구들인 거죠.
그래서 자기는 동갑인 친구들보다 나이가 더 많은 것으로 쳐야 된다는 논리가 되죠.
그런데 최근 이 빠른 년생이 학교 일찍 들어가는거 없어졌다고 해요.
ok my uh panic mode has been activated-
i will now be redoing my formal lessons
also, you should do a short korean guide for foreigners :)
usually for studying learn the levels of politeness at least age one, the others get more complicated. just like Japanese.
I think even Koreans understand that the levels of formalities in the korean language is difficult for foreigners to learn so don't worry if you still don't completely get it.
맞아요..
근데 자기나라에서는 기분안 나쁜데 왜 기분나쁘냐고 그러고
제 친구가 만약그런다면 제가 사과하고 싶고 쪽팔일거 같아요..
당연히 짜증나고 화날거 같네요 ㅜㅜ
까뿔지 마라..하고 어린애들이 그러기도 하고
또 놀이터에서 아가가 미끄럼틀타려고 하면
더 나이많은 애가 와서 내가 더 나이가 많다며
확 밀치고 뭐가 잘못됐는지도 모르고 부모도 그렇고
이건 좀 다른이야기인데
시어머니가 좀 안 좋은 경우도 많고
사돈,동서,형부..너무 많아서
저도 잘 모르겠고 그런거 생각하다가 하고 싶은말도 못하고 불편하고
여자쪽이 남자쪽 동생,누나,형 한테 도련님,아가씨 라고 하는것도
너무 아직도 남자가 위 인거 같아 바꿨으면 좋겠어요...
학생들한테도 외국인들한테 그러는 것 처럼 반말 막 쓰고 그러더라고요;.. 집 가는 길에 어떤 할머니가 뒤에서 "야!" 이러길래 아는사람 부르는거겠지 싶었는데 알고보니까 저 부른거였고;
나는 지금 나이세는거 좋은데..ㅋㅋㅋㅋ 다같이 1살먹는거 재밌고 좋음. 약간 헷갈리는것두 있기야 하겠지만 한국에서는 한국나이로 하구 외국에서는 외국나이로 하면 되징
만나이도 딱히 헷갈리는것 같지도 않은데ㅋㅋㅋㅋ 걍 생일안지나면 2살차이고 생일지나면1살차이인것 뿐이잖어
빠른은 조금 헷갈려두 뭐 외국도 학교진학같은거 하게되면 이런 문제 있지 않나? 우리나라도 빠른같은건 교육이라던지 학교진학할때 문제가 되는거지, 일상생활에서는 딱히...
나이로 존중하는것두 우리나라문화고, 오히려 외국나이로 하게되면 더 헷갈릴것 같은데.. 어제 친구였던 애가 내일은 언니/오빠가 되는거잖아ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ 뭐 친구끼리는 신경 안쓰겠지만 처음만난사람들과는 좀 헷갈리는 문제도 있고 사회적으로도 좀 혼란스러울듯..
In Spanish you also have respectful/formal speaking and informal speaking. Depending on the country, one will be more used than the other. When I came to the US it felt so weird saying "you" to people I just met, specifically older people, so in my mind I was saying "usted" instead of "tú" everytime I said "you".
Oh my god yess. I was born and raised in Cali, but I hate it when people speak to a stranger and older people with "tú ", its "usted". Especially of someone comes up to my mom, even if they're the same age, and uses "tú" I get so offended. 😤
한국사람들이 나이를 먼저 묻는 건 내가 대우받고 싶어서라기 보다는 상대방한테 실수하지 않기 위해서가 더 큽니다
내가 형인데 왜 반말해 이런 의도라기보다 나보다 나이 많은 분께 실수를 하지 않기 위해서 미리 물어보는 거죠
첫째로 한국은 아이가 생기고 배에서 품고있는 시간도 '삶'이라고 생각해서 태어난 순간부터 1살이 되는거에요 ㅎㅎㅎ 그리고 한국에서도 3살전에는 생후 몇개월이라고 이야기해요 태어난지 2살이어도 그렇게 표현하진않구요 ㅎㅎㅎㅎ 생후 2일이 되는 거죠 ㅎㅎㅎ 그리고 두번째 빠른은 음력을 기준으로 하는 거에요 설날이 음력으로 1월1일 인건 아시죠? 띠가 음력1월1일 기준으로 바뀌는 거라서 같은 띠끼리 동갑으로 본거죠 ㅎㅎㅎ 이건 많이 헷갈리실것같아요 ㅎㅎ 한국에서는 띠가어떻게되? 하고 나이를 확인하기도 해요 ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ 좀 올드스타일 이긴 하지만요 ㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋㅋ
품고있는 시간도 포함해서 한살이란말 너무 구차한거 같음ㅋㅋ 그럼 뭐 1월 1일에 태어나면 연말쯤 되면 두살되나?
When you’re speaking Korean, the culture is included (I’m kyopo btw). Why would you suddenly ignore that culture just because someone is a foreigner? If you’re speaking Korean and using jondenmal is a form of respect to people older than you in that culture, why would you not speak to foreigners with that same respect.
Even if some foreigners do not care if you use banmal, that’s something you should ask and receive their consent for. Just like when you’re talking to a Korean and when you get closer ask if you can malkka (use banmal instead). It’s not something that should be assumed.
Me, being born January 1st, it’s a struggle
I was born January 2nd, so I understand. The idea of having to use formal speech for someone who's 3 days older than me is a bit weird.
@@sunningdale3478 if 3 days older you don't have to use formal lol
@@sunningdale3478 you don't use formal depending on days, it's just years
데이브님 샘님 쵴오 👍 맞아요 예의없는 인간들 진짜 싫어요 !!
I can f relate to this s. I'm a foreigner in Italy and There is the same using of formal and informal in daily conversation. However, in the speaking language they don't care if you're foreigner or not, they use it in the correct way with all people. Another thing when I talk to my friends originally coming from the same country as I am, who are living in Italy for so many years as I am, we speak directly in Italian for most of the time, and not with our mother-tongue language, don't know why.. The argument is so interesting and fascinating as it is O.O.. Love & Peace.
Sam is totally right. I never understand how William can be 5 ? He is only 3 years old baby. It is totally confusing. If you have birthday in summer, your age is 2 years older suddenly. All of the world use international age system except Korea. When Koreans did disrespectful behaviors, it hurts foreigners. Please be equal to every people.
As a same context, it is really awkward to call "You" to who is older than me in English cuz I'm Korean. It feels impolite to me. And also, we never use last name only but in western, they do. So I always confused which one was polite to say. It just so different.
In the western world, just drop the first name. Ex: Hello, Mr. Smith and NOT, hello, Mr. John Smith. If by mistake, you include the first name, it would not be seen as impolite.
so in English there are ways to make the sentence less formal. but not at the level how it is with Korean. unless we bring thou and thee. but those are obsolete words
@@jame254 True, true.
Matty Bruno Lucas Zenere Salas
basically the discussion was about the need to not automatically talk informally in Korean if the other person is a foreignor.
Korean has clear formal and informal language. They are used depending on who you’re talking to. You would talk formally to anyone who is your senior(especially age) and informally to anyone younger than you.
A direct ‘you’ in korean is informal language. You’d never refer to anyone older than you by the word ‘you’. Using it to someone who is your senior is just really rude.
It’s the same thing as in english when you meet your friend’s parents. You’d never call your friend’s parents by their first name.
@@jame254 just to add on, (since I don't imagine everyone knows this) the "thou/thee" forms were once English's informal pronouns, with "you" serving as the formal. Now that it's archaic, it /sounds/ formal, but it was used in the opposite manner.
Its so interesting to see how annoyed Dave was because that girl wouldn't extend the same level of respect to him as she did to the other mutual friends. I guess when you live somewhere for so long and have assimilated into their culture, you expect others to stop looking at you as an outsider. If I were in his place, I would be annoyed not only because we were in Korea but also because in my culture we have similar values when it comes to communication with those older than you (definitely not as strict as Koreans though, there's still room for flexibility). In my country we use both English and my mother tongue simultaneously (Hindi), so I can get away with not using the correct terms sometimes lol.
Yeah, it's a bit of a shame imo. It seems as though if you aren't born in Korea to Korean parents, you will always be seen as a foreigner, even though you might be a citizen and lived there for most of your life. I could be wrong though, it's just a feeling I get, I don't have experience. This will probably change eventually, but I imagine it will take place over generations as the world becomes more multi-cultural.
I get it 😂😂 there are some things I say in English to my dad that I wouldn’t be able to say in Korean. In Dave’s case, I think it’s because language implies (at least in Korea) the level of respect, and automatically choosing informal language feels disrespectful. Especially because he lives there now!
@@alistair2g already happening in certain parts of Asia, sadly it is a bit of shame.
I think what's really triggering is what she said after Dave pointed it out to her. That's just plain disrespectful.
@@gustlightfall Agreed!
난 독일에 살면서 한국학 공부하고 한국말 잘하는 나보다 어린 친구들 많이 만났지만 다들 나한테 너라고 하고 반말하는데 별로 기분나쁘지 않고 신경쓰이지도 않던데..걔들을 독일에서 만나던 한국에서 만나던. 흠......
Omg I totally understand! I live in Korea and I get so annoyed when I meet some Koreans and they don’t speak formally to me. They always say oh well it’s because you are a foreigner and you don’t have age culture then I’m like well we are speaking Korean and we are trying to follow Korean culture. Like if they are speaking to me in English then I don’t care but if it’s in Korean then I expect us to follow the age system.
언어와 문화의 신묘함이란 ㅎㅎ
데이브가 말한 그 반말한 어린여자는 진짜 생각이없네요🤔 그리고 데이브님이 원식이형한테 반말할때의 상황도 무릎을 탁치게되는 상황이네요😮 영상보면서 궁금해진게 두분다 모국어가 영어권인데
평소라면 서로영어로 존칭어없이 얘기할분들이 데이브님이 갑자기 한국어로 "야 샘 이따 뭐먹을래??" 이러면 샘님 반응이 어떨지 궁금하네요 ㅋㅋ
갑자기 사고회로 정지가 오실지
야 데이브 형한테 반말하냐? 바로 한국인처럼 이러실지ㅋㅋㅋ
좋게 말하면 엄마 뱃속에 생겼을때 부터 이미 하나의 생명,인간이다..그래서 태어나자마자 1살..거기 더해 과거에는 음력으로 따지니 그해 태어난 십이간자 (띠)에 따라 동갑이 되니 빠른이 생긴거죠.
이번에 처음 외국인 사람과 대화해봐서 잘모르고 친근하게 반말로 하는게 나을것같아 그렇게 했는데 외국인분은 많이 기분나빠하셨는데 정말 어렵기도 하고 반성하게되고 사과를 해도 화가 많이 나셔서.. 너무 죄송하네요..
Thank you Dave and Sam for going over this. I’ll surely keep these ideas in mind for when I plan to go visit Korea. It sucks how foreigners get treated that way and hopefully this video opens native Korean’s eyes to this discomfort. It’s not cool being disrespected in any language.
나도 나보다 나이가 어린사람들한테는 처음보는 사람이라면 존칭을 써주는데, 하여튼
우리나라뿐만이 아니라, 외국에서도 나이문화가 있기는 하겠지만, 그래도 우리나라가 제일 심하지않나하는 생각이 드네요.....
특히, 나이 차이가 많이 날수록 상대방이 아무리 100% 잘못을 해도 함부로 마음대로 이야기를 못하죠.....
샘형님 그래서 아이들 나이는 보통 개월수로 이야기를 많이 합니다 한국나이로 5살 생일이 한달 남아서 3살일 경우엔 35개월이라고 부르죠
또한 빠른년생도 2000년인가 이후로 금지됐구요
Straight off the bat, my thought is that its the language that matters, not the country
If a Korean spoke to you in English, then informal is fine (since formal is only used in business/professional settings)
but if they spoke in Korean, it should be formal (because its inbuilt IN the language itself - formal is respectful, informal on the first meeting is extremely rude)
반대로 생각해서 외국인이나 다른사람이 첨 만났을때 아니면 뭐 다른이유로 같이 있을때 반말하면 자기들도 기분나쁠껀데 외국인이든 나이가 어리든 많든 다 사람이기에 기분나쁜건 똑같은데 왜 그럴까...
오 그렇군요. 좋은 내용이었던 것 같네요. 감사합니다 데이브형님 ㅋㅋ
It's kind of weird that some people specifically don't use formal for foreigners. I'm from the Netherlands, and even though it's by no means to the same degree as in Korea, we also have a formal way to address someone. There's "je" for the informal "you" and "u" for formal. "U" is generally used for people that are older than you, and my parents have always stressed for me to be formal since it's respectful. When you get to know someone really well, they might tell you to use informal. Now, pre-covid I was an intern at a firm and their company policy for all employees is not to use the formal form. That was SO difficult for me. Because I didn't know anyone very well, and they we're all quite a bit older than me, so even though they told me not to be formal I felt like such a rascal addressing them informally. Like my body was physically struggling to say it, because I felt I was disrespecting them. So to me that person not addressing you formally because you are a foreigner really shows an utter lack of respect for foreigners in particular on their part.
I think it needs to be emphasized that the point “We’re in Korea” focuses on the culture that you’re immersed BECAUSE of the geographical location. The actual geographical location isn’t the focus. Otherwise, it’s like telling someone in the U.S. to only speak English because “You’re in America.” (Just to be clear, the U.S. doesn’t have an official language, but English is the perceived official language.) Anyway, this video brings such an interesting topic to light!! I think your points and feelings are totally valid, esp as someone who is living in said culture.
나이에 대한 계급이 생긴 것은 일제 영향이 큰 것으로 알고 있습니다.
과거 조선시대에 살았던 위인중에도 나이를 초월한 친구 같은 사이를 유지한 분도 계십니다.
"오성과 한음" 이란 이야기를 모르는 분들은 없을겁니다.
실제로 한음은 이덕형 이라는 조선시대에 신하 중 문신 이었고
부수찬, 부교리, 이조좌랑, 동부승지, 대사성, 예조참판, 대사헌, 병조판서, 이조판서, 우의정, 영의정을 지낸 인물이죠
오성은 이항복 이라는 인물로 정치, 행정, 외교를 하였던 인물로
오성과 한음 부르는 호 라고 하여 이 두 분을 절친으로 지냈던 인물이기에
동갑내기 친구라 생각 하는 사람도 많은데
이항복은 1556년도 생이며 이덕형은 1561년생으로 돌의 나이 차이는
5살 차이가 나지만 서로 단짝 친구 처럼 지낸 것으로 유명하죠
나이에 의한 계급은 일제의 잔재라고 하는 사람도 있습니다.
실제로 한국인들은 사회 친구라 해서 5살까지는 친구로 보는
사람들도 있습니다
세는나이는 한국문화가 아닙니다.
고대 중국 문화입니다.
1962년 1월1부로 대한민국 표준나이는 만나이입니다.
샘 아조씨 말에 격렬하게 동의하는 데이브님 넘 커엽네옄ㅋㅋㅋ
그나마 빠른년생이 폐지되서 그랬지 빠른년생 폐지안됬으면 더더욱 복잡했다
2002년 이전에 태어난 사람 중에서 1, 2월에 태어나 초등학교 입학 시기가 애매한 경우 동급생들보다 1년 빠르게 학교에 입학한 사람들을 가리키는 말이다.
I completely agree with you guys. It's really hard to put into words and it's really much deeper than just feeling left out because you're a foreigner. Languages have evolved based on cultural aspects which affects how we perceive a language. We attach ideas and especially emotions to a language. You can't really separate these aspects without a language sounding/feeling unnatural or rude. I speak Spanish and English fluently and I'm still learning Korean. There are just things I would never say in one language that might be perfectly normal to say in another. It's just the way it is.
Man, I'm so glad you made this video.. Totally feel the same. It ANNOYS me when someone's not using formal speech!
근데 사실 샘형님? 에게 반말은 현시점에서는 외국인보다는 연예인이라 쓰는거죠
그러면 안되긴 하지만 국내 연예인도 이름이 고유명사가 되서 씨 형 붙이기 보다는
와 누구누구다. 이렇게 그냥 나도 모르게 부르게 되니..
Hi Dave! This is one of the best "serious" contents you have. I just liked the way these things were discussed by two foreigners who has lived their lives in Korea for a long time. Cheers to more videos! 🤩🤩
I think this depends on the person. For context, I have been living in Korea for more than 5 years and speak fluent Korean, am married to a Korean, and like to think that I am pretty well integrated into the culture. I am a researcher at SNU hospital, and have never had this experience at work (people use 존댓말 with me,). However, this 반말 situation happens to me frequently in social settings. Dave gave the example of his female friend not wanting to call him "Dave Oppa" and him being offended. I respect Korean culture and age "rules" since I live here, but I personally feel a little uncomfortable with people referring to me with those title since I am not Korean, and not only don't mind if they don't use those titles, but prefer it. I ask my friends to just call me by my first name, regardless of age. My family is from Argentina, and we have a very casual communication style and no such age culture, so maybe this plays a role in my perception of this issue. I honestly don't really favor Korea's age culture (I think that system of hierarchy makes it difficult for people to get close to eachother), but if I don't favor it and then go out of my way to make a big deal out of someone not calling me 누나 or 언니 or -씨 or whatever, I'm playing right into it. Just my perspective!
Bandito I think this is just a different perspective as well. To me, respect does not equal discipline. In my culture, kids truly respect their elders despite the lack of an age-dependent system like there is in Korea.
the difference here is that you have asked them to call you by your first name. implying that at the start of being friends, they could be polite with you and showing proper respect whether in their behavior or manner of speech towards you. so you requested of them that they don't have to do that. that means both of you agreed how to speak to each other moving forward. if someone was disrespecting you because you were different/foreigner right from the beginning, you probably wouldn't want to be around that person or continue to grow a close friendship with them.
this girl skipped all that. she one-sidedly went forward and refuse the proper approach even though they are talking in korean.really immature and rude.
in dave's story, he didn't have a chance to say anything similar to "oh, we are close friends. even though we are clearly different ages, you dont have to use formal speech-just call me by name and speak comfortably." the girl directly from the beginning singled him out and used overly friendly tone to the point of disrespect. sounds to me, they were not at the level close friends yet and this was a group of friends that was in a casual setting but not completely comfortable with each other. like they were not total strangers but still more closer than acquaintances but doesn't feel like they were close enough to be good friends because any real friend would not ignore another friend's feelings and thoughts. she was really not acknowledging it.
it's really telling that when dave asked her about it, she still wasn't considering his feelings and dismiss the idea of showing a little respect to him. she continued to use informal speech and stubborn about how she address him. what she should've done was say "oh sorry, i didn't mean to disrespect you. i didn't realize i was being insensitive" that would have been the right thing to do. it only became a bigger issue because she treated it so one-sided and solely because "you're a foreigner so it doesn't matter anyway."
@@GenieGin13 I am facing a similar issue now. I met and got close with this one girl who is significantly younger than me and we speak in 반말. But, she has a habit of calling me 너 which I am not okay with. I don't wanna hear 너 but on the other hand I don't wanna be like "um could you call me 오빠" because it's cringe af and i don't wanna say that. it's such a gray issue and I feel out of place being a foreigner and acting like a 꼰대 but at the same time I feel really uncomfortable hearing 너 and being told "you're a foreigner" feels like what i learned about following the age culture and respecting the formalities is just throwing everything away.
@Dr. K I agree with the age system making it hard for people to be closer. To me, titles should just be titles and that's it. It should have nothing to do with making it harder or being easier for people to be closer.
한국은 뱃속에 있을때부터 나이를 먹기때문에 나이먹는건 싫지만 생명 존중하는고같아좋아요
아무리 외국에서 나이랑 반말 존댓말이 상관 없어도 상대방을 존중하지 않진 않음. 한국에서 초면에 반말하는건 상대방을 존중하지 않다는 뜻을 내포하고 있기 때문에 기분 나쁜게 당연함
I really understand what Sam is saying about the developmental differences with Korean age vs what the actual age is. I currently teach in Korea and my students are 6 years old Korean age. When I first started teaching them I couldn't figure out why the behavior and development was SO different. Then I found out my youngest student was born December 31. There are 3 other students who were born in December too. The developmental gap is so big between those younger ones and the other ones.
This is so true. I learned for a long time korean and the culture. So when i speak to someone in formal korean and they speak to me speak straight informal... i just wanna give up. Like if i try to respect you, why you belittle me??
in my opinion either you speak with foreign or not, if you use english or non-hierarchical languages, it's okay to use the informal terms as long it's still respectful BUT if you use hierarchical language you should use formal terms cause otherwise it would be rude, except the person ask you to drop the formality.
Love you Dave! ♡ have an amazing day/night/life
is it so hard to just be polite and respectful to everyone who deserves it regardless of age.
그래. 그래도 그 "형" 이나 "동생" 이 주는 어감이 가지는 정겨운 이미지도 있음.
꼭 형동생이란 칭호가 나쁜것만은 아님.
U guys should really really check out their podcast. It’s amazing.
Same problem here in a Japan. I’m manager and the staff below me use informal language. Just because I’m a foreigner they think it’s not needed. I speak fluent japanese... same in daily life.
Same for daily life. People also use the word GAIJIN like it’s no big deal.
Planet Black Cat i noticed it’s a common thing in China, Korea and Japan to use formal/informal way to talk to someone older while in English it doesn’t really make any difference 🤔 maybe it’s in asian culture in general
Taylor TayTay I know. I’ve been living in Japan for almost 12 years. I lived in China for 1 year. But when they talk to me in Japanese they should show some respect. I’m their Manager and at least 10 years older.
@@crowns.a2580
In ancient China these rules used to be pretty rigid as well, which I guess is how it influenced modern day Korean and Japanese society to be; but pretty much in the Chinese language we have abandoned most of the differences between formal/informal speech and of course royal court speech (in Chinese we have specific words used by the emperor eg 朕 to refer to himself, 陛下 in Korean: jeonha, in Japanese: heika, used by subjects of the emperor to refer to him etc.); the only one we mainly keep now is 你 (Ni; "you" informal) vs 您 (Nin; "you" formal) and a few other sentences used in formal occasions; in ancient Chinese there were many other words like 汝 (Ru), 伊 (Yi); and even some self-depreciating terms (eg 奴才、奴婢; "literally your slave, your loyal subject", 在下、鄙人 "this one who is beneath you") to show respect to whoever you are talking to. Hierarchy rules based on age in China and other Chinese communities worldwide have been pretty much relaxed nowadays, in part owing to the past few hundred years of history where Chinese culture has been extensively destroyed by successive waves of Manchu (Qing dynasty) occupation, the communist revolution including the Great leap forward and the eradication of the four 'olds' (old customs, old beliefs, culture, religion etc.).
@@crowns.a2580 he's a manager. Even if he is younger than they are, he should still be respected.
0:04 i love how he emphasized the names of “East sea” and “korean strait” (the east sea is “commonly” referred as the sea of japan🤮)
둘 다 영어권에서 왔는데도 샘 씨는 영어로 얘기할 때는 복성(abdominal sound), 한국어는 후성(throat sound)으로 나눠서 소리 내는데 (한국어 쓸때가 목소리 톤이 더 높아요!) 데이브씨는 두 언어 모두 한국어식으로 후성을 주로 쓰면서 영어 한국어 같은 높낮이가 되는게 신기해요.
저도 맨날 이 생각 해요!!데이브님 너무 한국화 패치가 잘 되서 영어 쓸때 발성이 한국어식이 되어 버림..ㅋㅋㅋ
@@sky-blue808 근데 생각해보니 데이브씨는 라틴아메리카계 가족이라 부모님 발성에 영향을 받았을 수도 있겠네요
It could be that they don’t want to assume you speak English so they use Korean since you are in Korea? I agree it’s a little weird if you already know you’re both American/Australian and don’t use your native/common tongue (unless you are meeting to practice Korean or the purpose of the meeting is about Korea/Korean)
엄청 공감!! 한국식 나이 계산하는거 좀 고쳐졌으면 좋겠어용~
Being asian & raised with asian values myself (e.g. being courteous to ppl older than u), i think it's just common sense to immediately speak politely to someone if they're older, EVEN IF that person is a "foreigner"...
Like if i had called my expat teachers in high school by their names, i would've been smacked man 😂
Sam is looking svelte!
존중 못받는단 생각 들면 기분 엄청 나쁘죠..
한국 생활에 많은 어려운 점이 많으셨구나
한국사람도 외국에서 인종 차별 당할때 화 엄청 나는데 음...
대화 주제가 좋아요 ^^
The US is a diverse nation and we don’t really have this sense of “foreigner” based on looks because generally everyone looks different and can be American. Korea is generally not that diverse and Koreans who use informal speech to people who look foreign should get out of that “foreigner” mentality. If Korea was more diverse more people would use respectful language to different people, but regardless if Korea is more diverse or not, you’re still speaking the same language and you need to speak with the culture that comes with it no matter to who or where. Plus many other languages and cultures have respect integrated as well.
@@Flying-Chicken yeah but the point is that korea is still not close to being as diverse as the united states. it's not a bad thing necessarily, just that it could lead to a more closed mindset
@@christinac4197 many koreans travel abroad though.. most sure know things outside of the country.. america is big country korea is not..
Bandito Bandito no I mean in many big cities where there's a diverse population. I know there are Xenophobic people but I'm not talking about them. People generally don't assume you're a foreigner just by the way you look (color of your skin, hair, etc) because they cant tell if someone grew up in the US bc more often than not a "foreign" looking person in the US would be a 2nd generation of higher resident. (there are things you can wear that people identify your origin but based on race, no) And when you're a foreigner without a foreign English accent it reinforces the idea that you are automatically assumed you grew up in the US. In Korea, even if you have no accent, in David's case, people generally automatically assume you grew up somewhere else and close minded people won't use respect because they're "foreign". It's just different culture and some closed minded people in Korea need to realize that it doesn't matter where the other person is from, you're speaking the same language.
J C even though most Korean's are aware of other countries, within their Korea, they're not that ethnically diverse compared to other countries. 96% of Korea is Korean, while 76% of America is white. The remaining non-white percentage is concetrated in bigger cities like New York, LA, Houston (all around 40-50% white). Usually Koreans assume foreign looking people are foreigners (which is an understandable assumption) and treat them as such. But usually, a culturally exposed American like in big cities won't usually assume someone is foreign. All I'm trying to say is that the close minded Korean people need to realize that they should not change how they speak to someone if they're from a different country and not to treat a foreigner differently than their other friends.
In German, there is also a difference between formal you 'Sie' and informal you 'du'. Strangers are always addressed with formal you for respect, unless e.g. you're fellow students (so even a 5th grader wouldn't be formal to a 12th grader - if they are, the 12th grader looks hella old. Or at university, almost every student addresses each other with informal you). Informal you is used for friends, family and people you've known for longer. Technically, you may only use the informal you to strangers/definitely older people when they offer it to you. It usually gets complicated with the parents of friends because sometimes they're lowkey offended if the friends address them formally (making them old/distancing yourself from them).
It gets pretty funny when people obviously try not to use ANY pronoun and its properly conjugated verb to avoid using the wrong one, even though it's not possible to just drop pronouns in German sentences (like it would be possible in Korean or Spanish etc.). It's either a sentence like "can I have that salt?" or "can one give me that salt". The first one isn't suspicious, but if you hear the second one you know what those people are struggling with. Plus just turning it around and saying "I" doesn't work in every situation.
I feel like Chinese culture is actually very similar: with the age, and like terms for people older than you. I’m not a foreigner but I was born and I live overseas, so it’s confusing when I have to go to China to visit family, especially with the older relatives.
I met a Korean guy in my Japanese class in Japan, so we're speaking in Japanese. He's a school year behind me but we later found out he's actually my age (and a few months older). He got annoyed when I spoke to him in polite desu-masu form lol. He said, "you're senpai so why are you speaking so formally". But to me it's just that I don't know Korean, I'm not speaking to him in Korean, my culture doesn't care about age difference much, and neither of us are Japanese. My Japanese isn't perfect either. Polite form is the easiest one for me and I use it on pretty much everyone. It's just, polite? Idk why he'd get so annoyed.
this is confusing to me-
I guess it goes to show how language is interwined with its culture and social values. But yeah, when in doubt, just be polite (which should be the automatic way when meeting someone honestly).
@@wow88121 I think there might be a general problem of Koreans' way/perception of interacting with foreigners (or to people of different nationality they aren't familiar with)? I suppose it goes to show the unintended ignorance that happens when dealing with an unfamiliar culture.
Seems like he projected his culture on you! Maybe the difference between people who just want to learn the language and people who learn the language as part of a culture. (IMHO, I think the latter is correct. I mean he’d probably be off-put if a foreigner spoke informally in Korean to him if they’re not close.)
@@wow88121 I suppose he thinks we're classmates and got partnered up as a group often, so we aren't strangers. I always spoke in polite form to him, maybe he was frustrated all that time and decided to confront me 😅 he looked so annoyed that day.
It became awkward to talk to him ever since though... And deep down I don't feel the need to follow his social tradition as a non-Korean not in Korea 🤷♀️
I'm Korean/ American and I'm also suffering with the same problem, Thanks for referring it!
I agree with Sam. It’s more on the location and language which is a huge part of a culture. For me, it’s just natural to have the age hierarchy in mind when I speak Korean to anyone who speaks the same.
I’ve never been this early for a new Dave video ㅋㅋ
I feel like in English we just completely change the words when we're being formal/polite. "Can I get you a drink?" goes to "Could I offer you a refreshment?" real quick. But yeah, the whole "You're a foreigner and shouldn't be so upset about it." has been getting old in quite a few areas.
데이브님 영상은 약간 궁금한거 잘 올려주시네
Thank you for showimg both Kor and eng subs at the same time. It's best for learning and not enough channels do it. I'm subscribing just for that and I love that you go back and forth speaking both languages.
It makes since that it would frustrate people, because it is disregarding feelings, and just being generally disrespectful. Because while English doesn't have a formal form, you wouldn't go up to some old lady and go "yo dude this party is lit", like you would to a close friend or someone your own age cause it's rude.
"In the west we are all friends". Try and say that in Russia or another Slavic country. In Russian (and my mother-tongue Ukrainian) there is a formal way of speaking, but it might be a little weird. You refer to people you speaking to as "you" but in plural "you"(вы, ви). Also, there are a lot of various expressions used in the formal language, but that sort of thing present in most languages. But, unlike in other European languages, this formal thing is completely based on age . So, even after a certain amount of time, there is no way you might speak to a person in informal, unless this person is family (close relatives, husband/wife parents not included), friend, or has allowed you to speak infomal to him/her (happens sometimes). But there will be no way we put a title "brother, sister" to our friend or speak formally within the family, like Koreans do.
Oh, and one more thing. Even though this formal thing is based on age, we would never ask the age of a person, its considered impolite. We just know by the visual.
As soon as yall started talking bout korean age, you lost me🤣 I'm literally so fricking confused
Easy.. how old are you at the end of the year? +1. The end. xD (excluding the fast year thing that's utter nonsense xD and f's everything up)
Basically everyone ages at the same time in Korea :) regardless of the day you were born, you all age up on Jan 1st.
In addition, when you are born you're 1, not 0, so Koreans are numerically 1 year older than other cultures who don't do this.
In Korea when you’re born, they say you’re a year old because you’re in your first year of living. It’s possible to be “two years older” than your Western age because it could be before your birthday. For example, let’s say your birthday is 6/6/2000. On 4/5/2002, your western age would be 1, but you’re on your third year of living (2000, 2001, 2002)! So technically in Korean, age is not “how old,” but more “what year of life.” 😅
It is really confusing at first, but it all depends on what month you were born. As explained in one of the replies, everyone is considered a year old at birth. And then, everyone adds another year to their age during the new year (Jan 1).
Let's take William as an example. When he was born on July 2016, he's 1 year old. On January 1 2017, he turns 2. He stays 2 years old for the whole year even after his real first birthday on July 2017. On January 1 2018, he becomes 3 years old when he's literally only 1.5 years of age. Which is why I noticed, on TROS, they use months to tell the age of kids below 3 years old (18 mos).
I think this is one of the most interesting videos on your channel. I think it’d be incredibly rude to right off the bat speak to someone in 반말, foreigner or not. I’d be really upset if I were to experience this. I agree with Sam that there should be some middle ground. Not gonna lie, when Dave imitated what that one girl said I was trigggerrrred.
I live in Japan so there’s formal/informal and since I speak Japanese I don’t like it when people find out I’m a foreigner and drop the formalities...worst was when I was a customer (Japan takes customer service very seriously) and they started speaking informally like...I’m using formal with you???? 😔😔😔