As a sparky was taught 60 years ago to always drill in the center of a jouist and whenever possible to keep away from middle of jouist. So if jouist was say 15' wide try to only drill 5 to 6' from either end. When running common most size cable ( 14/2 & 12/2 NM cable to never drill over a 3/4" diameter hole.
As a contractor electrical for 30+ years we always do a min 2 ", 30% or center of joist. Even on the laminated beam and osb I beam style also with knock outs. Max 3 wires in a hole also! Great video!
Probably not the best idea to run wires that low in a ceiling joist if you plan on hanging drywall down the road. Could potentially hit a wire with a screw.
The more important issue is that the house is essentially vandalized. The home inspector is doing a not great job of explaining how serious this issue is. The house was designed by a engineer for that aspect of the structure and that structure has been destroyed.
@@brucemacneil he’s definitely pointing out the issue at hand, and then suggesting them to talk to a professional contractor about it. But he’s also just being realistic to say that it’s 20 and hasn’t had issue yet. He’s being proper to point it out as an issue though, had he said there’s no issues in 20 years so I won’t point it out then that’s bad. But he saying; 1 - this is not proper and it’s an issue and making the customer aware 2 - it’s more commentary to say that after 20 years it’s clearly not caused an issue, and that at minimum monitoring this would be a bare minimum, and at best it could be beefed up as it is improper. Nowhere did he say that it shouldn’t be pointed out to he made aware and that it also shouldn’t be rectified. Your just looking for something to pick at. I always tell customers in my trade - if it’s absolutely necessary then I will 100% suggest it and will not do anything otherwise, unless the explicitly sign off on the recommendation. If it’s something maybe I know should be done but isn’t an immediate issue I won’t pressure them into it, I will still make the recommendation but I can explain and prioritize these things to them, and they can ultimately make whatever decision they want regardless I can’t force their hand. Depending on severity - major severity I will repetitively recommend it and tell them I think it’s bad to leave it - as a professional you should always strive for best practice but in the end it’s their home and their decision and you cannot force them, and being pushy leads to bad relations - and at minimum severity I always say it would be better to do X than Y, but that ultimately the house won’t collapse because of it. Building codes have changed so drastically that remodelling an old house you cannot bring certain things to code without total demo or major major modifications - I make them aware of this and let them decide. Your there to do your job 100% correct, but while doing so cannot force them to change things that aren’t part of your job. You can’t force their hand. You can’t make them update their lacking insulation if they don’t want to - and if your not already contracted to touch that job then give them the knowledge and let them decide - you only have to bring the items up to code if your doing work to it. If you had to maybe due to rot replace that floor joist then of course you do it right. For my arguments sake if the basement ceiling was finished and this wasn’t apparent form below - if your there ripping up the finished flooring material, then notice bad sub floor sheathing and are then replacing it, you can notice this joist issue and recommend to change it out or beef it up - they ultimately have the decision. Your not required by code as a contractor to force the customer to replace the floor joist due to the noticed issue, but morally you should of course let them know about it to let them - with your imposed knowledge - to decide. It’s not bad enough to be condemned. You cannot force their hand/wallet.
@@brucemacneil Engineers overbuild homes with a safety factor of x4. But I'm still with you on this one. it's one thing if they compromised 1 joist. But they compromise damn near every joist in this house in Middle of the beam. which is the most stressed section member. Honestly I'd immediately run to a lumber yard and support those joists.
The electrician thought he was doing a workmanlike job and at first glance it looks nice and neat. But unfortunately there are at least half a dozen violations here… some IRC and some NEC. And the sections violated were present when the house was built… (IRC was born in '97) they’re nothing new. Bottom line it should have failed both a framing inspection and the electrical rough-in inspection.
I get the framing violation but what is illegal about the electrical? Too many wires through one hole? Or the fact that they notched out that much to run their wires?
I see this all the time and I personally don’t like it done that way. Pretty sure code would have allowed a backer board at the edge of the wall for all the Romex to run and be supported down, below the joist. As long as the backer board is present you can run wire under 6 gauge below the joist.
sometimes they give you no choice but what i dont like is all the joist runs stay same if you run a hole through a joist maybe every third joist move the wire holes left or right a few inches so not all the joist have the same weakness throughout the entire floor
In the uk we are not allowed to drill holes in a space less than 75cm of beyond 120cm from the end of the joist, and the holes must be at half the depth from top or bottom ie a joist with a depth of a100mm the holes must be 50mm from top or bottom and each hole must be three hole writhe apart .
That’s Code. I have seen rows of holes in the lower part of the beams in homes built 20 years ago. We don’t touch those old wires. They would have been better off to staple the wires to the bottom of the beams.
@@BatMan-cq8gq I honestly don't see the issue, just run conduit. Here in Chicago we run conduit outside the wall and inside the wall. protect your wires.
Correct. the bottom of the joist is under tension. the top of the joist is under compression. The center of the joist is neutral, neither in compression or tension.
I feel like so many residential electricians just refuse to get out the right angle drill and rely on a regular drill with a long bit. The end result is holes located too close to the edge and at an angle. I'm sure you have the right tool, use it.
That's not true. I've seen rules for maximum hole size per foot on engineered floor joists. I'm not a licensed electrician but I've worked with one before. I've never worked on a property with pure wood joists like this before though, only engineered "I joists" with 2x3 type stock on the top and bottom connected by an OSB "web". You can only drill through the web and only a certain area. New construction uses "open web joists" where it's basically 2 2x3s connected by 2x2s in a zig-zag pattern. No drilling required for electrical or plumbing.
NEC 300.4(A)(1) these holes must be not less than 1 1/4 inch from the edge. Anything that is 1 inch must have a metal plate at least 1/16 inch thick. Anyone that builds homes, put it in the contract that it must be X inch from the bottom for structural integrity, because anything else may be in the building code, but is not in our electric code book. For inspectors, tell your electricians upfront in a flyer with any common error you see people doing, it will save a lot of time later. After all we all want the place to be safe.
@@BatMan-cq8gqnot true . You can cut square holes or drill round holes in engineered I joists. You’ve never read the pamphlet that comes with them. It lists hole sizes both round and square and where they may be drilled or cut. It’s very specific. The only place that can never be notched or cut is the top and bottom chord.
Top is in compression (usually it's a moot point because the floor sheathing is glued to it, making it strong as hell,........ Bottom is in tension. Technically, a hole in the middle is what is going to affect the behavior of the beam the least...I'm not sure why they have stuck a bunch of holes right near the bottom, do NOT put the hole underneath a wall..a point load, etc., ,..or near the ends. Well,...if the ends are blocked (or have squash blocking)..you can put holes in the center near the ends. But in a lot of states,...you just don't see blocks or squash blocks much.
Would a 12" tall joist like this really be able to split at the bottom even though the holes are so low? That's an awful lot of area the board would have to move downwards at the top to expand that bottom enough to split. I admit I may be wrong, but with joists that wide (tall) after 20 years there has been no cracking - likely b/c of thee size of these boards. Former physics teacher who knows he can still learn!
Even if that weren't a problem, with 5/8" drywall which is what you use for ceilings per fire code, code requires 1 5/8" fasteners. Countersinking the screws for firetaping you're getting an inch or more of bite into the joist, so you would likely end up sinking screws into the wires.
Issue is that new growth wood does have the same strength and is more prone to splitting. Add in some heavy flooring (tile) & granite counter tops, its adding a lot of stress to those weaken joists.
The bottom of joists are under tension, the top of joists are under compression, the middle is neutral which is why we drill our holes through the middle.
The majority of tension stress is at the bottom so you essentially just created 2x8s out of 2x10s or 2x10s out of 2x12s. This is how I joists work. The top is in compression in span and the bottom in tension as the joists essentially makes two different radius in deflection. This is why you can cut almost all of the middle of an I joist out and why strength of an I joist is how far apart the top and bottom chord are and the ability of the cord to resist compression or tension. The middle is just to keep the top and bottom the same distance apart.
You can daughter floor joists when you feel they may be compromised; but, having so many holes in a single place is going to even make that difficult to do.
Would never pass inspection here should be at the center of the joist and spaced further apart … HVAC is the same but can’t have two runs close together can only be two times the diameter of the hole spacing to each other
yes, but make them at least 2" apart. Also, if you are running cable, it's better to drill 1-1/2" holes and far fewer of them. You can put 3 or 4 cables in the same hole.
@@superwiseman452 I went roughly 2" - 3" apart. I was running PEX plumbing through the joists. That old wood is pretty hard. I ran something like 18 PEX lines through a 60" wide basement hallway which was the only choice I had.
@@markfothebeast It's always best to drill holes in the middle of the joist. Except for the within the load bearing area of the joist (where the joist rests on the 2x4 top plates), you should not drill within a foot of there (or even 6" is fine). If you drilled the 2x10s in the center with 2" hole spacing, and the span is only 5 ft, you will have no problems whatsoever. A 2x10 for a 5 foot span is extremely capable of carrying very large loads. And even if you have 18 holes at least 2" apart, the joist can still carry a huge load for that short span.
Best to discuss it with a structure engineer. Issue make be the total load & length of the joist. For instance there could be a wall or post that is carrying weight above the beam, or if its an older home, there might be some structural deficiencies because the home was never built structurally sound.
Did you Mr. Inspector Gadget say the house has been standing for over 20yrs? A qualified expert structural engineer would say the holes weakened absolutely nothing!!!!
As are retired structural engineer and P.E., you are wrong. Those joists are severely compromised. The reason that no issue has arisen yet as because the structural requirements for homes are quite conservative and it is hard to achieve the 40 psf design load in most cases. However, it is possible to achieve such loading and should that happen in this home, there is a very good chance of failure of one or more of these joists. Building codes exist for a reason.
As home inspector also that's a bullshit call IMO. Any legit contractor is going to say "What do you want me to do? It's already installed and I don't see anything wrong." There appears to be no sign of structural issues so why even go there? It's my goal that any contractor I recommend that comes behind me, not call me an idiot for making a silly recommendation. I try to stick to any true safety and health issues or conditions that are going to potentially cost the purchaser/seller big $$$$$.
Depending upon the span width of those pictured joists, it could be a huge issues, particularly because a whole series of joists were degraded in the same manner. It's hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like the holes a a bit less than 2" from the lower edge. This is a serious problem, but it depends upon the span of the joist. If it's greater than 10 feet, I would be quite worried and would slap some steel on each of them with bolts.
As someone who does drywall, when your countersinking 1 5/8" screws into 5/8" drywall and it's an inch away, I mean, do the math. If you were my home inspector and didn't call this out I would be furious.
@@veloxeam7303 They make these super high tech devises called nail plates. My point is/was that the inspector recommends "further review" which really means "I'm covering my ass". If I call this out....what do you honestly expect a legit contractor to do?? If I was the seller and you asked me to replace the material....you can image my response.
The issue is drywall not structural. No way could compromising the outer inch ruin the other 9 inches of that 2x10. Ny non sense as a inspector you should challenge that rule. On a 2x4 its a prob
As an actual licensed structural engineer, these holes were poorly located and indeed comprise the load that the member can carry. It's not only strength that you have to think about but serviceability as well. You should leave it to the pros.
Couple different approaches, but need more information first. Maybe the joist is oversized for the span, therefore no structural issue. other then needed protection from screws or fasteners before ceiling finish. If I was worried about it, the easiest fix is to glue and laminate another(smaller) joist to the sides of these existing joists. You could also put in some solid blocking that would help a bit.
Holes are too low and too close together. if i am running that many wires for homeruns ,etc i usually just drill A couple holes about 1-1/2" in the center of 2×10 about 12" apart. if you stay in the center don't take out 40% or more and space the holes far enough apart it doesn't effect the structural integrity in any significant Way.
How many homeruns ( romex lines) can you put through one hole, is it two or three ? I originally drilled a 1.5 inch hole in my joist to run 6 lines through it from the kitchen to the panel ( 50ft) but saw a video that said you can't put that many together but then saw another video of many romex stapled all together.
@@kamiperzsi7495 I just wired my home and the inspector said for a 7/8 hole you can run (2) 12/2 romex. He did say no more them 40% of the hole can be filled.
We use to put them under the joist held by a staple but the code changed and have to be drilled ,but with that said whoever did that was wrong and I etleast put the holes in the middle👍
Looks like 2x10's were used so maybe they had planned ahead to drill all those holes. I have 2x4 floor joists for my attic so I added (screw attached) 3/16" x 2" steel channel - sistering them for added support.
The size of the joist isn't the big issue, its boring through the bottom which is under tension. The holes need to be in the neutral plane (middle) of the joist.
You don’t. It will not fail. This is suck a joke. I’m a electrical and plumbing journeyman. If that would fails, then you need to pull all the wood out of the home because there is an issue with the actual lumber. The end
What your obviously missing is that the load there only requires 10 inch joists, but the builder put in 12s to accommodate the mechanical and electrical. This is a fairly common practice and in no way a cause for concern.
Missing the point? The building code is pretty clear on the rules for notching and holes through joists. No hole within 2 inches of the top or bottom of the joist.
@@BatMan-cq8gq That is for properly sized joysts. I believe that if the choices overspect It is actually permitted. You should not read one part of the code out of context of the rest of the code relating to a particular member. Just to be clear, the code says you cannot cut within 2" of the edge of a "load bearing horizontal member". But that portion of an oversized joists is not always load bearing. If code, the architect, and the engineer say that 10 inches of width is load bearing, and that the rest of the 12 inch joist is not load bearing, then I have not violated cold by notching or drilling therein. And that vary mutch looks like what happened here.
@@josephdestaubin7426 oversized or not the bottom of the joist is the primary point of tension in the structural member. There is a reason the IBC specifies to bore through the neutral axis of joists or beams. Now if an engineer specifically designed and signed off on such modifications then that becomes the engineers liability.
@@BatMan-cq8gq I agree, what you're missing is that the joist need only be considered to be that portion which is considered to be load bearing by the architect and engineer. Moreover, as an inspector you're completely capable Of assessing what are the load requirements for that structure and drawing from that the same conclusion that I drew from the video. This is likely why the structural members have not split. In any event, I would suggest you're read the IBC section to which you refer, and I will do the same.
These things can be done correctly. Any well-educated contractor knows how to do good work safely. Ahh, but how do you find out whether a contractor is any good? The first step is to ask for a detailed written estimate of the work to be performed, preferable from THREE OR MORE bidders. Here are some indications that the contractor is NFG: - Won't give written estimate, merely waves hands and spouts a dollar number. - Estimate is not detailed. - Estimate is not on a printed form that shows applicable license numbers. - Estimate is far lower than anyone else's. What could go wrong? - Estimate fails to specify the kinds or grades of materials to be used. - Contractor cannot or will not provide examples of work completed elsewhere. Now how do you check the work in progress? - Show up unannounced to see how things are going. - Hire an inspector to monitor the work. - Have a contract in place that includes penalties. - Be prepared to cancel the contract for cause. Cancelling the contract when work is underway may easily be very costly. If you've paid too much in advance, it'll be hard to enforce a request of, "Take it out and do it over," even if a legally qualified inspector condemns the work. Bear in mind, before starting, that cost overruns and construction failures are very common. Our family owns a house built 90 years ago where the guy who put in a ceramic tile floor was drunk at work. We failed to have him rip it out and do it over, and bear the ugliness of it even today. Good construction people and good mechanics are like gold. They're out there, but sometimes hard to find, or unavailable. Most people who privately have a house built say, "Never again!"
First off, you are talking about 2x8 here. Secondly you did not talk about if the home owner might choose to put sheetrock on the ceiling and how to avoid putting a screw or nails into those low wires.
In my experience, nearly all contractors are dangerous, incompetent, unaccountable hacks. I long ago switched to doing my own work. Buying a home is a nightmare, because nearly every home looks like a patchwork of garbage. There is just no accountability for these dangerous jackasses.
@ncoooty that is a totally unfair and untrue statement. Yes there are some "hacks" .. and any homeowner who falls into the "get three bids and then hire the low-ball bidder with " no license no references and no insurance" trap going to get exactly what they pay for, and will probably never get to work with anything but the "D" team. But I assure you the vast majority of legitimate contractors... The ones with real businesses, real licenses, real skilled staff, real insurance, real training programs are professional, conscientious, and ARE totally accountable.But they're not inexpensive.
@@HBSuccess: Sure, all 7 of them. Glad you've had better experiences than I have... and you're right that a big part of the problem is that homeowners can't tell good work from bad or just want cheap work. Even so, I've had awful luck finding good contractors at any price... and I see poor (often dangerous) work everywhere... much more than good work, sadly. To be clear, I know that a lot of the time, it's not the fault of the tradespeople themselves, but of the businesses they work for.
Having worked for contractors/carpenters, I can't tell you how many times we were called in to fix home owner specials, to include my favorite, replacing/installing new beams where owners thought they could get away with tearing out walls and putting in random lvls and such without consulting an engineer.
@@newleaf8452: I can only imagine. We really need better accountability for that sort of dangerous nonsense, because too often, very little of the serious stuff would be caught by a home-buyer's inspection... and even then, it's only when the house is sold.
@@HBSuccess I met few contractors that I would say are top tier ! When you get a dozen mid tier crews together on a job site being rushed on a thin budget ! End up with millions of stick frame homes wrapped in foam ! Guy who taught me how to do siding robbed 100 homes cutting holes in the wall with a sawsall !
While I agree that the holes are too low, you are evaluating a situation without benefit of the engineering, techniques and inspections that were in place at the time of construction. It obviously passed inspection and has performed, so... I see this all the time. A home inspector shows up at at house and evaluates based on current code even though the house is 20, 30 50 years old. One of my jobs had a presale inspection. That person called out that the crawl space didn't meet code requirement of 18". So the seller had to excavate to 18" even though the build met code at the time of construction and was under no obligation to met current code. Happens all the time because inspectors have little education and all the power.
Check out Metwood Joist Reinforcers www.metwood.com They allow up to 4" holes in 2x8s, 6" holes in 2x10s and 2x12s 1 hole per joist only allowed. They are engineered and or code approved.
Why they hell didn’t he just mail them under with wire clips? Or worst case scenario, fir out the rafters and allow a notch that doesn’t effect structure. Looks like the new guy needed supervision or the old guy needs to find a new career.
@@brittanystrauss6331 I'm pretty sure your joists are not 2x10s if they split. They're probably 2x8s. 2x10 joists would not split with 1" holes unless something catastrophic happened above.
As a DIY homeowner that does projects on my own house, it's common sense that if one wants to intentionally weaken a beam, drill the holes close to the bottom, so that a sufficiently heavy load on the floor above will tend to break the beam at the weakened point. I guess having the NEC rules and inspections partially works around the problem of hiring electricians with poor problem solving abilities, however I assume the electrician industry tends to attract those with above average IQ's and would prefer those with low IQ were prevented from entering their industry.
That common sense thing you’re talking about doesn’t exist anymore I’ve seen plenty of DIY slap something together that causes more problems down the road and they end up calling a professional to fix their mistakes I’m not saying DIY is bad if you have knowledge and skills to do so go ahead but a lot of folk over estimate themselves and their knowledge or think that blue collar work is easy and they can do better themselves They end up making simple mistakes that are costly in the grand scheme of things Good rule of thumb is if you haven’t done it before or been taught how by someone qualified consult a professional first And I stress especially for electrical plumbing and tree felling
No you are not! I’ve built houses and I am a n electrical and plumbing journey man. This is why inspectors are such jokes. Almost all of them have never worked in the feild doing what they are inspecting but also can’t use common sense. If the wood is that weak that it would cause a fracture from that then the entire house should be torn down. This is so ridiculous. Any licensed contractor knows that is a money grab so the inspector can get some of his friends to come in and dot he repairs so he gets a kick back. Or he doesn’t know shit.
As a sparky was taught 60 years ago to always drill in the center of a jouist and whenever possible to keep away from middle of jouist. So if jouist was say 15' wide try to only drill 5 to 6' from either end. When running common most size cable ( 14/2 & 12/2 NM cable to never drill over a 3/4" diameter hole.
1/3 length of joist from end. 2inches from edge...
As a contractor electrical for 30+ years we always do a min 2 ", 30% or center of joist. Even on the laminated beam and osb I beam style also with knock outs. Max 3 wires in a hole also! Great video!
No limit on # of cables in a hole unless it’s caulked or insulated. I agree more than 2-3 looks sloppy but it isn’t technically impermissible.
@@adb99999999999 310.15[C][1] vs 334.80. More than 3 [without insulation] vs more than two [with insulation].
and yes....minimum 2" separation both vertical and horizontally
20 years and it still looks good.
Probably not the best idea to run wires that low in a ceiling joist if you plan on hanging drywall down the road. Could potentially hit a wire with a screw.
Code would require metal plating, but code also requires these holes not exist.
The more important issue is that the house is essentially vandalized. The home inspector is doing a not great job of explaining how serious this issue is. The house was designed by a engineer for that aspect of the structure and that structure has been destroyed.
@@brucemacneil he’s definitely pointing out the issue at hand, and then suggesting them to talk to a professional contractor about it.
But he’s also just being realistic to say that it’s 20 and hasn’t had issue yet.
He’s being proper to point it out as an issue though, had he said there’s no issues in 20 years so I won’t point it out then that’s bad.
But he saying;
1 - this is not proper and it’s an issue and making the customer aware
2 - it’s more commentary to say that after 20 years it’s clearly not caused an issue, and that at minimum monitoring this would be a bare minimum, and at best it could be beefed up as it is improper.
Nowhere did he say that it shouldn’t be pointed out to he made aware and that it also shouldn’t be rectified.
Your just looking for something to pick at. I always tell customers in my trade - if it’s absolutely necessary then I will 100% suggest it and will not do anything otherwise, unless the explicitly sign off on the recommendation.
If it’s something maybe I know should be done but isn’t an immediate issue I won’t pressure them into it, I will still make the recommendation but I can explain and prioritize these things to them, and they can ultimately make whatever decision they want regardless I can’t force their hand.
Depending on severity - major severity I will repetitively recommend it and tell them I think it’s bad to leave it - as a professional you should always strive for best practice but in the end it’s their home and their decision and you cannot force them, and being pushy leads to bad relations - and at minimum severity I always say it would be better to do X than Y, but that ultimately the house won’t collapse because of it.
Building codes have changed so drastically that remodelling an old house you cannot bring certain things to code without total demo or major major modifications - I make them aware of this and let them decide.
Your there to do your job 100% correct, but while doing so cannot force them to change things that aren’t part of your job. You can’t force their hand.
You can’t make them update their lacking insulation if they don’t want to - and if your not already contracted to touch that job then give them the knowledge and let them decide - you only have to bring the items up to code if your doing work to it.
If you had to maybe due to rot replace that floor joist then of course you do it right.
For my arguments sake if the basement ceiling was finished and this wasn’t apparent form below - if your there ripping up the finished flooring material, then notice bad sub floor sheathing and are then replacing it, you can notice this joist issue and recommend to change it out or beef it up - they ultimately have the decision.
Your not required by code as a contractor to force the customer to replace the floor joist due to the noticed issue, but morally you should of course let them know about it to let them - with your imposed knowledge - to decide.
It’s not bad enough to be condemned. You cannot force their hand/wallet.
@@brucemacneil
Engineers overbuild homes with a safety factor of x4.
But I'm still with you on this one.
it's one thing if they compromised 1 joist.
But they compromise damn near every joist in this house in Middle of the beam.
which is the most stressed section member.
Honestly I'd immediately run to a lumber yard and support those joists.
@@justinstevenson2061 The undermining of that structure is a sign of incompetence.
That house has been damaged.
I've had union electricians refuse to drill any holes anywhere in any joist.
Because that would take effort...
Lol get a new one
@Frank R not the union electricians, just the unions...
Because they would be fired if they did that.
I had electricians say they don't drill their own holes, get a laborer and they'll run the line......that's what you really have, laziness
The electrician thought he was doing a workmanlike job and at first glance it looks nice and neat. But unfortunately there are at least half a dozen violations here… some IRC and some NEC. And the sections violated were present when the house was built… (IRC was born in '97) they’re nothing new. Bottom line it should have failed both a framing inspection and the electrical rough-in inspection.
List them
This shit is getting a little ridiculous. You need to have a legal degree to even work on your own home.
@@michaelmeathammer5688 No, you just need to have some knowledge and do it right.
@@mattozx6rr the time of winging it on a DIY is over. There is no excuse for a DIY' er to do shoddy work, as long as Google is still active...
I get the framing violation but what is illegal about the electrical? Too many wires through one hole? Or the fact that they notched out that much to run their wires?
Thanks for the tip. I didnt knew I can drill so many holes.
I see this all the time and I personally don’t like it done that way. Pretty sure code would have allowed a backer board at the edge of the wall for all the Romex to run and be supported down, below the joist. As long as the backer board is present you can run wire under 6 gauge below the joist.
sometimes they give you no choice but what i dont like is all the joist runs stay same if you run a hole through a joist maybe every third joist move the wire holes left or right a few inches so not all the joist have the same weakness throughout the entire floor
In the uk we are not allowed to drill holes in a space less than 75cm of beyond 120cm from the end of the joist, and the holes must be at half the depth from top or bottom ie a joist with a depth of a100mm the holes must be 50mm from top or bottom and each hole must be three hole writhe apart .
Add steel strapping to take up the tension forces at the bottom of the joist.
Learn something new every day.
I've seen holes in beams split. I avoid it as much as possible. If I have to do it, I keep it above the minimum line.
Drill holes through middle of joist and we only run 2 wires through each hole. That's what our inspector in canada wants
That’s Code. I have seen rows of holes in the lower part of the beams in homes built 20 years ago. We don’t touch those old wires. They would have been better off to staple the wires to the bottom of the beams.
4 wires us code.. heat load on top of each is the issue.
@@normferguson2769 except you can't run wire on the bottom of joists unless its armored cable or in conduit.
@@BatMan-cq8gq I honestly don't see the issue, just run conduit.
Here in Chicago we run conduit outside the wall and inside the wall. protect your wires.
Correct.
the bottom of the joist is under tension.
the top of the joist is under compression.
The center of the joist is neutral, neither in compression or tension.
I feel like so many residential electricians just refuse to get out the right angle drill and rely on a regular drill with a long bit. The end result is holes located too close to the edge and at an angle. I'm sure you have the right tool, use it.
There is no actual code stating the number of Cables per hole or hole size in Canada. Only that the cables can not be damaged during installation.
That's not true. I've seen rules for maximum hole size per foot on engineered floor joists. I'm not a licensed electrician but I've worked with one before. I've never worked on a property with pure wood joists like this before though, only engineered "I joists" with 2x3 type stock on the top and bottom connected by an OSB "web". You can only drill through the web and only a certain area. New construction uses "open web joists" where it's basically 2 2x3s connected by 2x2s in a zig-zag pattern. No drilling required for electrical or plumbing.
@@joshpavelich5235 I’m sure there is. I’m stating purely on the electrical side of it.
Thanks for explaining some of this.
NEC 300.4(A)(1) these holes must be not less than 1 1/4 inch from the edge. Anything that is 1 inch must have a metal plate at least 1/16 inch thick. Anyone that builds homes, put it in the contract that it must be X inch from the bottom for structural integrity, because anything else may be in the building code, but is not in our electric code book. For inspectors, tell your electricians upfront in a flyer with any common error you see people doing, it will save a lot of time later. After all we all want the place to be safe.
Thats wall studs not joist
@@ericfoutch2606 the 2020 and 2017 NEC says it is for bored holes in joists, rafters, or wood members.
Thanks for the inof!
Good thing they preserved humanitys precious supply of rare cable tray.
Code.... Aka money money money. A half inch notch for a water line on a 12in floor joist isn't going to compromise anything.
20 years as a testament says it’s good.
Good point!
A hole 1.5” or less in diameter is permitted anywhere in the web of a TJI except for defined exclusion zones around the bearing points.
Disregard, I just re-watched and it appears these are dimensional lumber. It’s hard to tell since the video was filmed with a potato.
I think Manufactured Wood Floor Trusses can be notched or drilled just above the flange provided it's not near a support.
If it's a true truss and not a joist, it will be all open in the middle, so no need to drill through anything
Cuts, notches, or holes are not permitted in engineered wood products unless the penetrations are specifically considered in the design of the member.
@@BatMan-cq8gqnot true . You can cut square holes or drill round holes in engineered I joists. You’ve never read the pamphlet that comes with them. It lists hole sizes both round and square and where they may be drilled or cut. It’s very specific. The only place that can never be notched or cut is the top and bottom chord.
I am a contractor and I would recommend reinforcing those joists asap with elmers glue.
_"Elmer's"_ ? If "Elmer" had a glue, then why didn't he just use the glue to catch that wascally wabbit???
No thanks
Chiclets
Seems like a long metal mending plate would add support.
Top is in compression (usually it's a moot point because the floor sheathing is glued to it, making it strong as hell,........ Bottom is in tension. Technically, a hole in the middle is what is going to affect the behavior of the beam the least...I'm not sure why they have stuck a bunch of holes right near the bottom, do NOT put the hole underneath a wall..a point load, etc., ,..or near the ends. Well,...if the ends are blocked (or have squash blocking)..you can put holes in the center near the ends. But in a lot of states,...you just don't see blocks or squash blocks much.
I can tell you why: Notice the wiring under the duct pipe that is between some of the joists. Duct work is usually installed before electrical.
Can I drill a 2 in hole in a top plate from the attic to fish wire down?
That's a horrible wiring pull. How did it pass the inspection in the first place? How do you remedy them? So many joists got compromised.
As he mentioned, a concern that needs to be monitored.
What's the remediation here? Obviously they never should have been drilled so close to the bottom of the joist, but what do you do about it now?
Yeah but what's the span? And what's the dimensional lumber? That all can negate those holes if the span is not large.
Would a 12" tall joist like this really be able to split at the bottom even though the holes are so low? That's an awful lot of area the board would have to move downwards at the top to expand that bottom enough to split. I admit I may be wrong, but with joists that wide (tall) after 20 years there has been no cracking - likely b/c of thee size of these boards. Former physics teacher who knows he can still learn!
Even if that weren't a problem, with 5/8" drywall which is what you use for ceilings per fire code, code requires 1 5/8" fasteners. Countersinking the screws for firetaping you're getting an inch or more of bite into the joist, so you would likely end up sinking screws into the wires.
Issue is that new growth wood does have the same strength and is more prone to splitting. Add in some heavy flooring (tile) & granite counter tops, its adding a lot of stress to those weaken joists.
The bottom of joists are under tension, the top of joists are under compression, the middle is neutral which is why we drill our holes through the middle.
The majority of tension stress is at the bottom so you essentially just created 2x8s out of 2x10s or 2x10s out of 2x12s. This is how I joists work. The top is in compression in span and the bottom in tension as the joists essentially makes two different radius in deflection. This is why you can cut almost all of the middle of an I joist out and why strength of an I joist is how far apart the top and bottom chord are and the ability of the cord to resist compression or tension. The middle is just to keep the top and bottom the same distance apart.
Maybe it will be fine until someone decides to put a piano or something on the floor above.
Man there ain't no problem with that!!! Ain't ever been a problem with the wY that was done
Size of the hole matters too right?
why couldn't you just sister a couple 3 or 4 ft boards on both sides of the joists to strengthen those areas that are notched
In the city i live you are allowed only to run 3 wires per hole
No no no that is electric code is call for nothing to do w frame
Can it be reinforced?
I’m an electrician.
Yea, that’s Terrible work
Not just the drill location either.
Turn the damn phone horizontal when shooting video!
Couldn't those floor joists be reinforced with steel plates to help prevent cracking?
You can daughter floor joists when you feel they may be compromised; but, having so many holes in a single place is going to even make that difficult to do.
Would never pass inspection here should be at the center of the joist and spaced further apart … HVAC is the same but can’t have two runs close together can only be two times the diameter of the hole spacing to each other
I don't understand this home inspector thing. They write condition reports. I don't see where they're trained to pass/fail code compliance.
Ouch, if it's not bad enough they put 8 holes in one joist, they did it through about as many adjacent joists.
Fail it move on ! I don't understand how it passed in the first place ?
Is it okay to drill 15 (3/4") holes in the center of 2x10's on the outer third of the joists roughly 1-1/2" apart?
yes, but make them at least 2" apart. Also, if you are running cable, it's better to drill 1-1/2" holes and far fewer of them. You can put 3 or 4 cables in the same hole.
@@superwiseman452 I went roughly 2" - 3" apart. I was running PEX plumbing through the joists. That old wood is pretty hard. I ran something like 18 PEX lines through a 60" wide basement hallway which was the only choice I had.
@@markfothebeast It's always best to drill holes in the middle of the joist. Except for the within the load bearing area of the joist (where the joist rests on the 2x4 top plates), you should not drill within a foot of there (or even 6" is fine). If you drilled the 2x10s in the center with 2" hole spacing, and the span is only 5 ft, you will have no problems whatsoever. A 2x10 for a 5 foot span is extremely capable of carrying very large loads. And even if you have 18 holes at least 2" apart, the joist can still carry a huge load for that short span.
Don’t drill holes in the bottom or top third of joist. Middle third only. Simple
Best to discuss it with a structure engineer. Issue make be the total load & length of the joist. For instance there could be a wall or post that is carrying weight above the beam, or if its an older home, there might be some structural deficiencies because the home was never built structurally sound.
That big ass floor joists aren't going anywhere. Stop that
It's a matter of stress calculations. "Big ass floor joist" isn't a mathematical factor 😂
Kinda like recording in portrait, not good but still kinda works.
I'm just busting your chops a bit
i don't think i would worry about small hole in 2x10. way overkill anyways. new home would be 2x8 as they are built cheaper
Where/when did you get your degree in structural engineering?
My area min. is 2x12.
that is a lot of holes in series there.. but it's a freaking 2x10..so I wouldn't at all worry.
Famous last words.
You don't have a clue of how much load is above those joists. Never make wild guess assumptions.
Did you Mr. Inspector Gadget say the house has been standing for over 20yrs? A qualified expert structural engineer would say the holes weakened absolutely nothing!!!!
As are retired structural engineer and P.E., you are wrong. Those joists are severely compromised. The reason that no issue has arisen yet as because the structural requirements for homes are quite conservative and it is hard to achieve the 40 psf design load in most cases. However, it is possible to achieve such loading and should that happen in this home, there is a very good chance of failure of one or more of these joists. Building codes exist for a reason.
As home inspector also that's a bullshit call IMO. Any legit contractor is going to say "What do you want me to do? It's already installed and I don't see anything wrong." There appears to be no sign of structural issues so why even go there? It's my goal that any contractor I recommend that comes behind me, not call me an idiot for making a silly recommendation. I try to stick to any true safety and health issues or conditions that are going to potentially cost the purchaser/seller big $$$$$.
All this does is create more unnecessary tension between the buyer and seller.
Depending upon the span width of those pictured joists, it could be a huge issues, particularly because a whole series of joists were degraded in the same manner. It's hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like the holes a a bit less than 2" from the lower edge. This is a serious problem, but it depends upon the span of the joist. If it's greater than 10 feet, I would be quite worried and would slap some steel on each of them with bolts.
As someone who does drywall, when your countersinking 1 5/8" screws into 5/8" drywall and it's an inch away, I mean, do the math. If you were my home inspector and didn't call this out I would be furious.
@@veloxeam7303 They make these super high tech devises called nail plates. My point is/was that the inspector recommends "further review" which really means "I'm covering my ass". If I call this out....what do you honestly expect a legit contractor to do?? If I was the seller and you asked me to replace the material....you can image my response.
It’s a total hack job by the electrician. You could let it slide, but there’s that slippery slope to worry about.
Need more info, are these 2x12 floor joists? What is the span? Are they 16" OC?
Jason, how many romex lines can you run through a hole, I've heard two and three ?
The issue is drywall not structural. No way could compromising the outer inch ruin the other 9 inches of that 2x10. Ny non sense as a inspector you should challenge that rule. On a 2x4 its a prob
As an actual licensed structural engineer, these holes were poorly located and indeed comprise the load that the member can carry. It's not only strength that you have to think about but serviceability as well. You should leave it to the pros.
So other than monitoring, what’s a proposed fix for it?
Couple different approaches, but need more information first. Maybe the joist is oversized for the span, therefore no structural issue. other then needed protection from screws or fasteners before ceiling finish. If I was worried about it, the easiest fix is to glue and laminate another(smaller) joist to the sides of these existing joists. You could also put in some solid blocking that would help a bit.
Code is center 1/3!!
Holes are too low and too close together. if i am running that many wires for homeruns ,etc i usually just drill
A couple holes about 1-1/2" in the center of 2×10 about 12" apart. if you stay in the center don't take out 40% or more and space the holes far enough apart it doesn't effect the structural integrity in any significant
Way.
How many homeruns ( romex lines) can you put through one hole, is it two or three ? I originally drilled a 1.5 inch hole in my joist to run 6 lines through it from the kitchen to the panel ( 50ft) but saw a video that said you can't put that many together but then saw another video of many romex stapled all together.
@@kamiperzsi7495 I just wired my home and the inspector said for a 7/8 hole you can run (2) 12/2 romex. He did say no more them 40% of the hole can be filled.
@@homesteadhaven2010 thank that helps, then I can probably put at least 4.
did u fix it
We use to put them under the joist held by a staple but the code changed and have to be drilled ,but with that said whoever did that was wrong and I etleast put the holes in the middle👍
Well at a point in time when the house was built. I did pass inspection. Also as for drywall you would be an idiot to put a screw through it.
if you need to add drywall, than you can install 1x4 or 1x3 perendicular to the joists across the ceiling. You lose 3/4" in ceiling height
Looks like 2x10's were used so maybe they had planned ahead to drill all those holes.
I have 2x4 floor joists for my attic so I added (screw attached) 3/16" x 2" steel channel - sistering them for added support.
The size of the joist isn't the big issue, its boring through the bottom which is under tension. The holes need to be in the neutral plane (middle) of the joist.
how would you remedy that? reinforce it with another strip of wood?
You don’t. It will not fail. This is suck a joke. I’m a electrical and plumbing journeyman. If that would fails, then you need to pull all the wood out of the home because there is an issue with the actual lumber. The end
Just reinforce from bottom and you are good ,.simple.
That house never should have received an occupancy certificate.
What your obviously missing is that the load there only requires 10 inch joists, but the builder put in 12s to accommodate the mechanical and electrical. This is a fairly common practice and in no way a cause for concern.
Missing the point? The building code is pretty clear on the rules for notching and holes through joists. No hole within 2 inches of the top or bottom of the joist.
@@BatMan-cq8gq That is for properly sized joysts. I believe that if the choices overspect It is actually permitted. You should not read one part of the code out of context of the rest of the code relating to a particular member. Just to be clear, the code says you cannot cut within 2" of the edge of a "load bearing horizontal member". But that portion of an oversized joists is not always load bearing. If code, the architect, and the engineer say that 10 inches of width is load bearing, and that the rest of the 12 inch joist is not load bearing, then I have not violated cold by notching or drilling therein. And that vary mutch looks like what happened here.
@@josephdestaubin7426 oversized or not the bottom of the joist is the primary point of tension in the structural member. There is a reason the IBC specifies to bore through the neutral axis of joists or beams. Now if an engineer specifically designed and signed off on such modifications then that becomes the engineers liability.
@@BatMan-cq8gq I agree, what you're missing is that the joist need only be considered to be that portion which is considered to be load bearing by the architect and engineer. Moreover, as an inspector you're completely capable Of assessing what are the load requirements for that structure and drawing from that the same conclusion that I drew from the video. This is likely why the structural members have not split. In any event, I would suggest you're read the IBC section to which you refer, and I will do the same.
These things can be done correctly. Any well-educated contractor knows how to do good work safely. Ahh, but how do you find out whether a contractor is any good? The first step is to ask for a detailed written estimate of the work to be performed, preferable from THREE OR MORE bidders. Here are some indications that the contractor is NFG:
- Won't give written estimate, merely waves hands and spouts a dollar number.
- Estimate is not detailed.
- Estimate is not on a printed form that shows applicable license numbers.
- Estimate is far lower than anyone else's. What could go wrong?
- Estimate fails to specify the kinds or grades of materials to be used.
- Contractor cannot or will not provide examples of work completed elsewhere.
Now how do you check the work in progress?
- Show up unannounced to see how things are going.
- Hire an inspector to monitor the work.
- Have a contract in place that includes penalties.
- Be prepared to cancel the contract for cause.
Cancelling the contract when work is underway may easily be very costly. If you've paid too much in advance, it'll be hard to enforce a request of, "Take it out and do it over," even if a legally qualified inspector condemns the work.
Bear in mind, before starting, that cost overruns and construction failures are very common. Our family owns a house built 90 years ago where the guy who put in a ceramic tile floor was drunk at work. We failed to have him rip it out and do it over, and bear the ugliness of it even today. Good construction people and good mechanics are like gold. They're out there, but sometimes hard to find, or unavailable. Most people who privately have a house built say, "Never again!"
First off, you are talking about 2x8 here. Secondly you did not talk about if the home owner might choose to put sheetrock on the ceiling and how to avoid putting a screw or nails into those low wires.
1x3 or 1x4 furing strips that are fastened perpendicular to the joists.
If there's no ceiling going up then there's really no need to drill anyway if you can staple them to the bottom of the Joist or run some conduit.
Just sad that if hes buddys with somone hed let it go … but to the average person you need to fix it or pay a fine
In my experience, nearly all contractors are dangerous, incompetent, unaccountable hacks. I long ago switched to doing my own work. Buying a home is a nightmare, because nearly every home looks like a patchwork of garbage. There is just no accountability for these dangerous jackasses.
@ncoooty that is a totally unfair and untrue statement. Yes there are some "hacks" .. and any homeowner who falls into the "get three bids and then hire the low-ball bidder with " no license no references and no insurance" trap going to get exactly what they pay for, and will probably never get to work with anything but the "D" team. But I assure you the vast majority of legitimate contractors... The ones with real businesses, real licenses, real skilled staff, real insurance, real training programs are professional, conscientious, and ARE totally accountable.But they're not inexpensive.
@@HBSuccess: Sure, all 7 of them. Glad you've had better experiences than I have... and you're right that a big part of the problem is that homeowners can't tell good work from bad or just want cheap work. Even so, I've had awful luck finding good contractors at any price... and I see poor (often dangerous) work everywhere... much more than good work, sadly.
To be clear, I know that a lot of the time, it's not the fault of the tradespeople themselves, but of the businesses they work for.
Having worked for contractors/carpenters, I can't tell you how many times we were called in to fix home owner specials, to include my favorite, replacing/installing new beams where owners thought they could get away with tearing out walls and putting in random lvls and such without consulting an engineer.
@@newleaf8452: I can only imagine. We really need better accountability for that sort of dangerous nonsense, because too often, very little of the serious stuff would be caught by a home-buyer's inspection... and even then, it's only when the house is sold.
@@HBSuccess I met few contractors that I would say are top tier ! When you get a dozen mid tier crews together on a job site being rushed on a thin budget ! End up with millions of stick frame homes wrapped in foam ! Guy who taught me how to do siding robbed 100 homes cutting holes in the wall with a sawsall !
Shit that ain't nothing. My house I just bought had a 4" hole where a pipe was supposed to go and they didn't even run it there.
While I agree that the holes are too low, you are evaluating a situation without benefit of the engineering, techniques and inspections that were in place at the time of construction. It obviously passed inspection and has performed, so...
I see this all the time. A home inspector shows up at at house and evaluates based on current code even though the house is 20, 30 50 years old. One of my jobs had a presale inspection. That person called out that the crawl space didn't meet code requirement of 18". So the seller had to excavate to 18" even though the build met code at the time of construction and was under no obligation to met current code. Happens all the time because inspectors have little education and all the power.
Wow that is allot of holes. I’m not sure I would want that many holes in my joists?
Drill low staple high
Check out Metwood Joist Reinforcers www.metwood.com
They allow up to 4" holes in 2x8s, 6" holes in 2x10s and 2x12s
1 hole per joist only allowed.
They are engineered and or code approved.
Holy shit. Is that all Romex? How many circuits did they run? The idiot(s) that kept drilling more holes...
Hold on a sec, I need my earbuds.
Why they hell didn’t he just mail them under with wire clips?
Or worst case scenario, fir out the rafters and allow a notch that doesn’t effect structure.
Looks like the new guy needed supervision or the old guy needs to find a new career.
Because that’s lazy and when someone wants to finish their basement they will spend 10k relocating home runs.
You could drive a truck over that and won't split.
Chequers 51 not true. Mine split and the hole is higher than an inch like thiers.
@@brittanystrauss6331 I'm pretty sure your joists are not 2x10s if they split. They're probably 2x8s. 2x10 joists would not split with 1" holes unless something catastrophic happened above.
@@keithrogers2295 wanna bet???😂 give me your email and I'll send pix.
@@brittanystrauss6331 I want to see because it's entertaining 😂 but I trust its true either way.
Transportapien@gmail.com
@@keithrogers2295 Well, these are effectively 2x8s now.. maybe a little more. And it depends on the span, doesn't it?
errr those joise are wide so it won’t impact with small holes
As a DIY homeowner that does projects on my own house, it's common sense that if one wants to intentionally weaken a beam, drill the holes close to the bottom, so that a sufficiently heavy load on the floor above will tend to break the beam at the weakened point. I guess having the NEC rules and inspections partially works around the problem of hiring electricians with poor problem solving abilities, however I assume the electrician industry tends to attract those with above average IQ's and would prefer those with low IQ were prevented from entering their industry.
That common sense thing you’re talking about doesn’t exist anymore
I’ve seen plenty of DIY slap something together that causes more problems down the road and they end up calling a professional to fix their mistakes
I’m not saying DIY is bad if you have knowledge and skills to do so go ahead but a lot of folk over estimate themselves and their knowledge or think that blue collar work is easy and they can do better themselves
They end up making simple mistakes that are costly in the grand scheme of things
Good rule of thumb is if you haven’t done it before or been taught how by someone qualified consult a professional first
And I stress especially for electrical plumbing and tree felling
Inch and a quarter buddy not 2 🤣
Lol it passed inspection
2 buy 12 just whith framed walls in that basement is over kill its more than ok youer not to bright
So 20 years it fine. But you think its not? Typical inspector. Those that can do those that can’t inspect
High stress point. Give me a break.
If you're going to make an instructionsal video....Use a mic!!
No you are not! I’ve built houses and I am a n electrical and plumbing journey man. This is why inspectors are such jokes. Almost all of them have never worked in the feild doing what they are inspecting but also can’t use common sense. If the wood is that weak that it would cause a fracture from that then the entire house should be torn down. This is so ridiculous. Any licensed contractor knows that is a money grab so the inspector can get some of his friends to come in and dot he repairs so he gets a kick back. Or he doesn’t know shit.
Lame installation, and not well thought out. It was a code violation, and there are better ways to do that!
Hey man, next time you do a video leave your sleeping baby at home so you're able to talk loud enough to be heard
You seem to use the word ‘basically’ a lot.
Please change that habit in the future. It irritates my ears and thought process.
Home inspector guy trying to act like a structural engineer. Stay in your lane
Load of bollocks