SV1000 - What is clutch 'chudder'?
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- Опубликовано: 14 июн 2018
- In this short video I try to show you what this 'clutch shudder' is.
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I "love" all the attempts to diagnose the problem as something else, based on a video. I kinda think that Matt, who is actually riding the bike, and generally knows his stuff, is in the best position to diagnose the problem. Plus it's a known issue on the SV1000.
Mine rattles like a bag of spanners at low speed/gear. I just dip the clutch to smooth it out. Lucky I bought the bike off a friend who explained the judder or I’d have been taking it back! I’d like to fix it someday.
Woah youre actually riding!!!!!! I like it!!!!!!
It's the result of the engine's flat spot, in the lower rev range, causing conflict between the rolling momentum of the gearbox and the fluctuating power pulses from the primary drive. The clutch is where the conflict occurs.
Not unique to the SV1000 as all engines generate this effect if the engine's RPM is allowed to drop into the flat spot band. It even has a name, "Judder". It's actually caused by the exhaust system because of intentional design. It's when returning pressure waves return to the cylinder through the closing exhaust valve)s) and blow back through the opening inlet valve(s) reversing the flow through the carb or throttle body. It also happens on 2 strokes though Reed valves and disc valves will nerf the effect, as will a single carb serving multiple cylinders.
The result is that the combustion in the cylinders of the motor is disrupted and the resultant shock is very tangible to the rider as "Judder". It's the engine's subtle way of telling the rider, "FFS CHANGE DOWN A GEAR!!".
The manufacturers of the bike know that they have to have a flat spot because of the laws of physics regarding pressure waves in the exhaust system. So they decide where they'll sit by designing and positioning the crossovers, collector box, setting exhaust header lengths to force the flat spot to sit. (Lots of interesting Maths involved). The width of the flat spot band in the RPM range is determined by the engine's inlet / exhaust valve overlap duration. The larger the overlap duration the wider the flat spot band. This is why high revving engines have wide flat spot bands in the rev range.
Obviously the flat spot cannot sit at tick over RPM as the engine would never start as blowback would prevent fuelling the engine. It cannot sit at the peak torque range or peak RPM either as performance would be shite.
So the manufacturers site the start of the flat spot band a few hundred RPM above tick over and where its top limit ends is where the rider feels the engine start to pull. This flat spot band can be anywhere between 1,000 RPM (low revving and low HP economy motors like the CG125) to several thousand RPM (GP engines).
This sets a minimal engine RPM ranges where if the rider allows the RPM to drop below a certain level, the engine will fall into the flat spot band, which is exactly what Matt is demonstrating on the SV1000 in the video.
I had to read up on all of this exhaust dynamics stuff when I designed a home brew performance exhaust system for a Rotax 504 engined road bike back in 2008. The maths is less hard on 1 into 1 and 1 into 2 into 1 pipe systems compared with 2 into 1, 2 into 1 into 2, 3 into 1, 3 into 1 into 2, 4 into 1, 4 into 1 into 2, etc.
It would be nice if all manufacturers marked the tachometer with the flat spot band, preferably with a brown background to highlight that performance will be shite if the needle sit there.
Matt will probably explain it in another video using diagrams and stuff.
Thats about the dumbest thing i've read this year. 😅 I guaratee you: even with straight pipes on your sv or vstrom, this problem will persist. -Check out Werks videos, and you'll see both what causes the chudder and how to fix it.
I'm really happy you made this video. My Bandit GSF 600 S behaves like an absolute knob head in first and second between 0-3k RPM unless you are accelerating. I put on a new chain and sprocket, serviced the bike myself and it had 19k miles on it. W reg - I can't for the life of me understand why and its annoying as hell. I did comment a few vids as Valkyrie but RUclips has fucked me over and kicked me out of my channel and I can't get back in as of yet but I felt like I needed to comment because this exact problem is really pissing me off
Great video, explains the issue well. I've just bought a Yamaha 2006 FZ6, love the bike, but I noticed at low speeds around the streets it judders (chudders). I thought it may be the throttle body set up or some other fuel related problem, but like you say the bike accelerates strong with no issues. Of course I just changed the oil, so I may wait until I drop the oil next time and do the clutch then.
You just need some Iridium Trioxide spark plugs to smooth out the idle.
empanada401, this only works if you cut 5 mm from the grounding arms and the coat the cap with copper grease. Also, doesn't hurt to soak the plugs in Evans coolant before you hit them with the dremel tool.
Yeap, my SV1000 had the same. For me, accelerating from low rpm, around 3k rpm the entire bike vibrated through the pegs. You could hear it but also feel it.
At idle in neutral it sounded like a dry-clutch ducati.
John fixed it. Expensive, but worth it. The clutch is still not the quietest/smoothest i've ever seen, but 90% of it is now fixed.. I can now idle in 1st gear and it's smooth and no bogging (PC3 helps) and pull from 2000rpm without issues.
The jumping and jerking could be fuel related too. Mine does that a bit when I put PC3 in the leanest setting.
Yup my Vstrom has the same issue in traffic. Thought is was Euro 3 fuelling. Thanks for this. Ride safe.
Denis Davies, seems a perennial problem at the place i worked it nearly always turned out to be the clutch basket/gear springs having either compressed or broken and /or the clutch basket/plates being notched and burred occurring more so on V-twins (we assumed this was due to the uneven firing spacing), clutch basket spring kits were available for some engines with stronger springs but the catch is the springs can make the gearbox/driveline more prone to wear or damage, i personally think EFI doesn't do any favours on V-twins as the engine management constantly adjusts the fuelling, timing etc. so varying the load through the primary drive.
Mines is the same. It has the modified basket but i think the hotter weather therefore thinner oil isnt helping soften the rattle.
Dude i can't even stand to go under 4k rpm on my SV1000S. Above that it's all good and smooth
Thank you sir, for the video. I am very confused about this. I feel like u must have discussed it in a previous video that I must have missed. My bike has always done this. I thought it was my chain. Also it sounds awful idling in nuetral, but as soon as I clunk it into hear all the noise is silenced. Do you think this could be my problem? My bike is an inline 4, though. 2002 FZ-1. Thanks Matt.
I swear my zx9r does something very similar - almost like a bogging feeling, slight surging, etc. It happens around town - I can ride around it cos it's not overly pronounced - I change up or down a gear, or go a bit faster or slower in the same gear. I'm not methodical about it - I don't have one specific way of dealing with it. But because it's not too bad, it doesn't piss me off loads, and it can be minimised with a bit of faffing. Also, at idle, the clutch makes an audible rattle - again, nothing particularly obtrusive. But when the clutch lever is pulled in, it goes away.
How significantly does basket wear contribute to Freeplay when the transmission is in gear? I.e. rotating the tire back and forth while engine is off
Beautiful area you were riding in
when i had TL1000 it was hard to drive at these low rpm's. You end up developing riding style where you pull the clutch, and also sometimes i did slow down against the throttle with rear brake, because doing it with throttle is so hard. Part of it is just the nature of this machine. Part was lean mixture. What i did was adjust TPS against the throttle turn by 1mm. So the TPS is off, but off to the rich side. It worked so much better i used that adjustment and never went back.
My fz6 does this, wasn't sure if it was clutch or a bit shitty fueling but looking back at paperwork it's done 30k and still on original clutch so I might have a peek at that.
Could that chudder be because of the oil you're using? I had a similar problem with my 1985 VF1000R and changed from the oil it came with to Motul semi-synthetic and it disappeared. I later changed out the pressure springs to stiffer ones and the feel improved even better. Perhaps a lighter oil or even different brand may be in order. Just a thought.
I got the sharealike clutch basket mod done on my 2004 naked SV1k. Utterly transformed the bike. After balancing the throttle bodies and attending to the valve clearances, it's smooth as fuck now, for a V-Twin anyways.
Well nice video, im just starting to watch through your playlists :D As others describe there is a problem with play in the clutch basket but i had this go away with my Powercommander and a little bit richer mixture. you can now easily ride at 2000 rpm and have no jerking. Some say its because of the simple O2 Sensor regulation or desynced throttle bodies and what not.
Changing the clutch might improve thing very slightly but the play in the clutch basket is there even on a new clutch. See video fro vloger sharealike. He explains Suzuki clutch problem and why it needs a modification to fix. Annoying I know, my Vstrom has exactly the same problem.
Go 2 teeth down on the front sprocket and 6 up on the back then wind up the idle to 5k rpm and pretend its a two stroke. FIXED!
reading on the vstrom owners club site , there is a bloke that can do a mod to the clutch basket to eliminate this , its common on vstrom 1000s apparently ,same engine I believe
Yes - he's called John Sykes
@@dirtygarageguy u have any contact with this man ?
On my 125 (Has derbi GPR 125 4T engine) when Im going down the road doing 50/60 ish, if I'm in too high a gear and going up a hill, I can sometimes hear a noise coming from somewhere on the left side of my bike, It sounds a bit like a plasic bag is rusling around on my chain. Initially i thought it was the chain alignment/ tension, but it certainly isnt, and I've changed my chain/sprockets and still the noise persists, leaving me to think it may be chudder as you demonstrated in the video. Also, there seems to be quite a lot of backlash in my gearbox, as when im travelling at low speeds and come off the throttle to start engine braking, it takes a noticebly large amount of time for the engine braking to 'kick in'. This definately isnt the chain tension, but I'm not sure if this is actually an issue with my gearbox or if its normal. I assumed it was normal because I have no other issues to speak of, but am still curious. Do you think I should look into it? ( I dont have very much experience riding diferent bikes)
Send me a video if you can - could be chain alignment
Will do when I get a chance thanks
I know that chudderring too good I didn’t know bigger bikes get it too I thought it was from the single cylinder idling with not enough speed. I changed my clutch plates and it didn’t help I think It might have to do with the clutch basket or the clutch hub teeth have worn off maybe
That explains why my Sv1000 is jumping as if the tarmac was bumpy.Also while twisting the throttle tube it feels very harsh from 2 -3,500 rpm.Yep, it will have to be done.In my country it cost 120 quid so not that bad.But I’m keeping the bike, so worthy investment.
Matt how do you do the weekly food shop on a bike ? 🤣🤔
Hi .. my 800 Tiger does the same .. which components of the clutch did you replace & more importantly ,, did the problem go away ?
I have this issue but it's not so bad yet. But I have noticed that at 5k doing 80 in 6th there's a constant knock through the whole bike. But it disappears when you go slower or faster. I've also noticed a really horrible knock from the engine when cold and pulling away. Sounds like something hitting the block but it comes and goes. Any ideas?
A video would be good - of the bike starting up cold and warm and whilst riding doing 80mph if possible
Chudder problem is well known but every single mono and bi at low rpms produce vibrations if you dont play with the lever
Matt. I own a KTM Duke 390 2017 version and this happens all the time in my bike. It's basically undrivable at around 20kph in 2nd gear (about 2-3k rpm) without slipping the clutch. My bike is 5 months old. Do you think it's just the way the factory tune is(as I've been told), a general single cylinder characteristic or premature clutch wear?
Single cylinder - this is a very perticular problem for the SV.
The Workshop thanks Matt! Big fan of your videos
Ffs. THAT'S clutch chudder? I've been having to deal with that since I got my bike. I thought it was a carb issue or just shit design. Guess while I'm at it I should replace pads and the whole clutch...it has issues but no slipping
You feel it a lot more than you see/hear it
ooh yeah, it's very rough if the engine doesn't have load. I had to change my riding to compensate. It does mostly go away when the engine is running hot, but could take hours of riding. The symptoms are all what you described. 1st gear hard to use, needing slip the clutch at any slow speeds, jerky, sounds like the engine is trying to avoid lugging.
I'm pretty sure this bike was never run hard the first 15k miles before I got it.
Ever get this sorted out? Watched the clutch replacement videos.
More to come later
it's interesting that a google search for "clutch chudder" results in only topics involving V-stroms, so is it a term coined only in that community?
Not an unusual symtpom on a V Twin. It looks more like poor fueling to me? Have you had the TB synched since you got it.
Yes.
My bike does this on all gears and going gear 5 releasing throttle proper jerking like it's going to cut out and my engine makes a metal clang noise and I'm scared my bike is going to break in half. It's a 125cc needs looking at hopefully it gets fixed next week.
Mine has done a similar thing since new. I just never lug mine. The owner's manual says below 13mph in first to pull in the clutch. I never notice it above 1st gear.
That's just nearl torque stalling - the video is the best I can do. You feel it more than see/hear it.
And the GoPro has OIS LOL
The Workshop
I just rode mine, 13 mph in 1st is about 2050 rpm. During normal riding I rarely get below 3500 rpm. I look forward to seeing what you find in there.
Mine same. Dropped a tooth on the front sprocket as well. Made it much more happy in traffic.
AJ Nope
I bet it did. What did that do to speedometer error? Did you fix that somehow?
your riding on the wrong side of the road mate
I hate red light too.. lol. Cheers Matt
Well shit fire. This is myvexact problem mine does it between 3/4000 rpm. Varadero xl1000 v twin. Thought it was just the characteristics of the bike till now
My XT550 (1982) has this as well at certain revs. Never knew what is was till i saw this video. Is it a thing that really needs repairing or is it just annoying?
It depends - the Suzuki has a design fault - it doesn't mean your problem is this...
The Workshop allright, I'm going to do some research on this for my xt. Thanks :)
It doesn't seem to be a typical problem for an xt 550.
When i'm riding at 2500-3000 rpm in 2nd or 3th it just feals like im driving on a very consistant, bumpy road. Don't know how else to describe it. Maybe I'll contact the local yamaha dealer about this.
In 3rd gear you are really asking a lot of the engine @ 2 - 3k rpm. Specially being a thumper.
Shit, I thought it was pretty normal for motorcycles. I mean my first bike was a KLR650 single cylinder tractor. I did notice that the SV1k is very jumpy in 1st gear and does have that slight kind of chudder (as you describe it), but it doesn't go up into 4k rpm. Actually 3-6k RPM is my smoothest range. Above 6k starts vibrating a lot
I don't believe you were on an actual road test. Prol using a green screen. Why do i says this...because its not bloody raining !
Its just bouncing between coasting and torque...the speed of the engine and the speed of the bike are right at that ballance point so it bounces on the clutch a little...I have had that with every bike I've owned when I was at that perfect speed and rpm...
Okay so now that we know it's from the clutch, how are we able to stop it from happening?
First
ruclips.net/video/3gJiQrpX_NQ/видео.html
Then
ruclips.net/video/Nr3yK7u4wCs/видео.html
@@dirtygarageguy thank you. I'm really looking at getting an SV1000s so going through all your videos is really helping me!
Some suffer from it, some don't - the newer version less so
I have a 125 that does this below 5000rpm, it's lugging the engine and gearbox, clutch has to pick up the slack. I can induce this with throttle opening in 5th gear and low speed, my bike revs to 9500rpm and makes all torque at 7500rpm... nothing below 5000rpm
So that's what a good road looks like? Over here in Michigan our roads are terrible; unless the road was just resurfaced it's uncommon to go more than a few hundred feet without finding an unintentional bump (usually from a repair), and an estimate I found for the cost to get 80% of southeast Michigan roads in "fair" or "good" condition is USD 1.6 billion annually.
I get the same thing on my triumph but not so pronounced, mainly , I think, due to the fact its so high geared.
My car however, (A 2003 Honda Jazz 1.4) is like a veritable kangaroo in slow traffic due to its crap fuel mapping and I'm always on the clutch pedal in heavy/slow traffic. Get below about 10mph in a queue and you'll be getting whiplash very quickly!
Do I hear your engine whine fluctuating in pitch in low revs, about 2000? Mine fluctuates ±100 RPM at any revs, I can see that by the tacho indicator. Is this normal? What could that be?
P.S. Love the accent 😁
That's probably the motor for the STVs getting old. I wouldn't worry about a 100 rpm swing
Nice going, let's see if you get a ticket for that red light🙄😃
on the wrong side of the road ;)
Yummy mummies lol. Loved that one.
But anyway. I didn't know it was a thing. I feel it all the time on my bike when im lugging around my house. But i just thought it was because of chain slack, and the fact that it's a POS. Another point, i think single cyls amplifies this since, you know, the distance between power strokes. Although i only feel it when it's running at almost idle rev
The is a problem mainly with bikes that have the SV/TL series engine. There's a design fault with the clutch.
She doesn't sound very well at low revs, new clutch and TLC should make her better. It's more about feel than major noise at the moment but it can only get worse, great video and rider diagnosis. The best diagnosis is usually done by feel and a good rider
Does clutch "chudder" affect SV650s too?
As far as I know - no. Just the DL, SV and KLV 1000's
The Workshop how bout the FZ-1?
Isn't this because of a shitty clutch basket design? The BMW K1200s and 1300s have a simliar issue. . .
That's V-TWINs for ya kid,only way to sort that out is with a power commander
woah these roads look nicer than Canary Wharf & olympic park.
That's a lot of speed bumps there. You do the same thing I do.... ignore them.
Put some copper grease on the new clutch plates Matt.
It looks like your just lugging the engine. (When your too high in gears and expect the engine to push past all the added load @ low rpm.)
At 15 mph in 1st?
You sure it's the clutch ?? My firestorms never liked very low revs, and would act a bit like that.
YEs - I'm sure its the clutch.
Thought you'd done the video after changing the clutch plates. Hadn't watched it to the end lol
Plenty of knob-heads in Golfs - beware.
Thats why our insurance premiums are so high!
Knob-heads in Golfs are obviously a world-wide problem, this morning, as I entered a round-about, I was cut off by a red Golf - I am in Australia - knob-head/dick-head, same horse, different jockey.
You ran a red light at 0:34 ;)
Red light @ 0:35 lol
How are you - the fucking police?
He might be the Police... who the fuck knows?
Weeb police.
Welcome to the real world. Or you know... The 3rd world nation whetr literally everyone drives like that and no one gives a shit
I hate speed bumps
Couldn't it be unsynchronised throttle bodys?
We'll find out.
Seeing as it was idling fine under no load I wouldn't think so.
its a type of cheese !!! lol
Just need to add some homemade cutting fluid to the oil
Get some f*cking copper grease on it! :)
The clutch chudder is there from new, it needs a modification doing to stop play in the clutch basket
Video I clicked on shows a clutch yet the video is all riding
But it's about a clutch
@@dirtygarageguy Was the clutch shown and explained? Picture implies some visual of the clutch basket with some explanation that never occurred in the video
Part 2...
@@dirtygarageguy Part 1 was bad enough... There are far better videos already made by people who know what they are doing
Then why the fuck are you wasting my time?
driving through a red light - not setting the best example for us young viewers - you're smarter than that surely :/
Stop being a whining bitch.
oi! yer driving on the wrong side of the road for 'evans' sake
Do you think the coppers watch these videos?
Only when you're being accused of harassment LOL
The Workshop I've been accused of "insult" (germany..) because I - allegedly - slapped a girls butt who actually jumped on me before while I was lying in bed some time. Nice female policewoman found me to not be guilty. Good old days
It's a Suzuki, WTF do you expect? :)
hey lad youre driving on the wrong side of the road
1st again
Err.. you spelt shudder wrong
Choppy + shudder = chudder cheers mate
Chode + shudder
First