Any refurbishment is, I would agree, long overdue. However, I strongly support the view that an entirely new fleet of 9-carriage units is needed to combat overcrowding. One particular requirement would be the provision of a buffet counter - you can spend many, many hours on one of these units, and the current catering provision is not good enough. For example I have a trip from Exeter to Durham planned which takes almost six hours. Oh for a really decent cup of coffee (not powder from a sachet) and some hot food!
Ah crap, they're gonna get ironing boards... Literally the only thing going for the current Voyagers is that the seats are pretty good. Not that you can get a seat of course.
What would be ideal in the long-term future would be for a new 8-10 car bi-mode fleet for the Manchester services at least (starting with Manchester-Bournemouth), with the entire Voyager fleet retained to fully strengthen all the other routes.
I hope that they take on 222 sets if those become available. If they take on enough additional trains, they could look at lengthening existing 220/221 sets. An Intercity operator should be operating services with no less than 5 carriages at the very minimum. 7 car sets would be ideal for XC.
I think that Stadler could manufacture new FLIRT Bi-mode trains that CrossCountry would like to have. But I still think it’ll be Hitachi to manufacture the Class 8xx Bi-mode IETs.
@@nathanw9770 I imagine they could use something similar to the Stadler SMILE or modify the FLIRT's top speed (which probably isn't that hard to do as it's only gotta go 25MPH faster)
Its no use if they're gonna continue running them in 4/5 car formations. They'll be run down again in about 3 years from all the overcrowding and no cleaning.
Together with cascading of some 222s from EMR, this is a very positive move for the franchise. It doesn't require more drivers to run longer train formations, yet this has been their main limitation for almost the entire duration of XC's existence. Anyone who has ever travelled anywhere near Birmingham on even a 10-car 220 formation will know that, even during the off-peak, overcrowding is a problem. I'd like to see XC required to run 10-car trains as a minimum on their core routes (Mcr-Bhm-Reading; Ncl-Bhm-Bristol) with the route extensions to Aberdeen and Penzance restored, as a condition of their keeping the franchise.
I used to travel Cross Country regularly from the old BR days. If I am being honest, I never disliked the Voyagers, but never considered them up to the standard of the refurbished HST sets. I noticed a significant improvement in service and increase in passenger numbers when Virgin took over, but a definite drop when they lost the franchise to Arriva. I wonder how the latest improvements will fare.
I remember travelling on a Virgin air con mark 2 coach behind a class 47 back in 1999. Plenty of space and place to store luggage. Much better experience.
Sticking plaster on an open wound. It won't do anything for the Tokyo metro experience that Cross Country offer on a daily basis. The whole fleet needs replacing with proper intercity trains rather than the toytown ones put on long distance routes. Voyagers were supposed to transform the intercity Cinderella into a princess but we all know what happened in Cinderella. Midnight struck within months of them being introduced as they were quickly found to be inadequate. Things have only got worse when Arriva won the contract and it is the only operator not to look at buying new trains. Replacement with 9 or 10 car trains cannot come quick enough and we currently have an experience far worse than BR would ever have offered.
Just polishing a turd… Shaky old diesel engines pumping out fumes at stations … Had my first trip on a Anglia electric train recently what a difference experience to the junk I use around Leicester…
"Impressive Voyager Fleet" - THEY MUST BE JOKING - the Voyagers are one of the worst train designs ever. A quick lick of paint won't stop them being too small, too crowded, too noisy, too smelly and too many rattles. These trains don't need an upgrade - they need replacing. Why they were ever brought into service is beyond me.
Maybe not on every route, but there's still a lot of routes with substantial sections of Electrification (e.g. Manchester - Bournemouth is about 2/3rds electrified)
CrossCountry should retain their current rolling stocks (Class 220 and Class 221 Voyagers) with the Ex-Avanti West Coast Class 221 transferred to CrossCountry and to also keep the Class 170 Turbostars. And the EMR Class 222 Meridians to be cascaded to ScotRail or GWR.
That seems to be the plan with the exception of the 222s getting cascaded. GWR is supposedly getting 175s and ScotRail is ordering new trains to replace its HSTs leaving the 222s free to be used by potential open access operators or to provide additional support to the CrossCountry fleet
No mention of the main fault in these trains being fixed, namely that they usually stink of human waste presumably due to the toilet vacuum pump exhaust being too near to the A/C system fresh air inlet duct. Why the trains were accepted from Bombardier with this disgusting fault is beyond me. I see that Alstom have now aquired Bomardier, I hope they will make sure that this chronic fault is corrected. A great shame because these are, of course, very capable trains with great acceleration similar to an electric train and are built strongly to protect in case of a derailment. Also I've never seen a Voyager Diesel engine smoke.
trains need replacing .. i live in the south-west .. when the trains always get cancelled during wet weather,, terminating either Bristol or Exeter alternatively fully open the north Dartmoor route .. via Tavistock .. at least the trains would continue to Plymouth and beyond but what trains would cross country buy to replace voyagers.. i hate the comfort of the 801's maybe a more comfortable version of the 800 series..
get rid of them. I travel from Sheffield to derby burton and Tamworth normally but do sometimes go north on them and since the HSTs got retired xc has just been horible with the only half denent trains in the fleet being the 170s
CrossCountry should keep the Class 220 and Class 221 Voyagers. And to inherit the Class 221 from Avanti West Coast that have been replaced by the Class 805 Bi-mode. Plus the Class 170 Turbostars should also get the full treatment if CrossCountry were to keep them or to be transferred to Northern. As East Midlands Railway has enough Class 170 Turbostars.
Cross Country should also inherit the fleet of 222’s from EMR once the 810’s are in service. This would then boost capacity on their key routes but doubling more services
Andrew. It has been agreed for 12 Class 221 units to be transferred from Avanti to XC. Several units are already in service. Why you think that XC should lose Class 170 units, I do not know.
I would personally have liked to see XC buy EMR's fleet of soon-to-be-replaced 8-9 coach Class 222 Meridans but clearly those extra West Coast used 60 coaches spread out across the Birmingham to Southampton and Penzance to Edinburgh routes will be welcome if it works out at maybe another 2 coaches per train. Putting aside luggage storage,overcrowding & toilet issues,mechanically speaking i have never had any problems with the Voyager and 1 set went the absolute clappers trying to make up for lost time between Sheffield & Chesterfield,covering the normal 13 minute journey and using the down gradient at Dronfield and late breaking to reach Chesterfield Station in under 10 minutes.
I’d rather spend £60m on new trains so the fleet can be expanded. Let’s face it, a refurb will be an excuse to keep these stupid trains running for even longer
Any refurbishment is, I would agree, long overdue. However, I strongly support the view that an entirely new fleet of 9-carriage units is needed to combat overcrowding. One particular requirement would be the provision of a buffet counter - you can spend many, many hours on one of these units, and the current catering provision is not good enough. For example I have a trip from Exeter to Durham planned which takes almost six hours. Oh for a really decent cup of coffee (not powder from a sachet) and some hot food!
Ah crap, they're gonna get ironing boards... Literally the only thing going for the current Voyagers is that the seats are pretty good. Not that you can get a seat of course.
What would be ideal in the long-term future would be for a new 8-10 car bi-mode fleet for the Manchester services at least (starting with Manchester-Bournemouth), with the entire Voyager fleet retained to fully strengthen all the other routes.
That would seem very sensible to me!
I hope that they take on 222 sets if those become available. If they take on enough additional trains, they could look at lengthening existing 220/221 sets. An Intercity operator should be operating services with no less than 5 carriages at the very minimum. 7 car sets would be ideal for XC.
I'm sure if it goes via London it will get upgraded 10 minutes ago lol
I can’t help thinking that replacing them with Stadler bi-mode FLIRTs might be a better idea.
The FLIRTs are great trains and would do a much better job than the voyagers!
@@NetworkNewsUK apart from having nowhere near the availability rate of the voyagers
I think that Stadler could manufacture new FLIRT Bi-mode trains that CrossCountry would like to have. But I still think it’ll be Hitachi to manufacture the Class 8xx Bi-mode IETs.
The ones on GA only have a top speed of 100mph so unless Stadler make 125mph capable units then they'll only lengthen journey times.
@@nathanw9770 I imagine they could use something similar to the Stadler SMILE or modify the FLIRT's top speed (which probably isn't that hard to do as it's only gotta go 25MPH faster)
Its no use if they're gonna continue running them in 4/5 car formations. They'll be run down again in about 3 years from all the overcrowding and no cleaning.
That’s why XC is acquiring additional units…
They should restore the tilting mechanism on all the Class 221’s.
Hope that's part of the refurbishment
Why? Only the West Coast routes have tilt capability.
@@bfapple All the Class 221’s are capable of tilting cross country just disable it.
@@jammiedodger7040 the rolling stock is capable yes, but the route needs to be equipped for TASS. Only the west coast mainline routes are equipped.
@@bfapple You mean they need the clearance on the line they run on to tilt.
Hate the livery outside not classy at all. interior.looks nice though!
Yeah, that is the single worst livery I have ever seen. It looks like they dipped the front in wax.
Together with cascading of some 222s from EMR, this is a very positive move for the franchise. It doesn't require more drivers to run longer train formations, yet this has been their main limitation for almost the entire duration of XC's existence. Anyone who has ever travelled anywhere near Birmingham on even a 10-car 220 formation will know that, even during the off-peak, overcrowding is a problem.
I'd like to see XC required to run 10-car trains as a minimum on their core routes (Mcr-Bhm-Reading; Ncl-Bhm-Bristol) with the route extensions to Aberdeen and Penzance restored, as a condition of their keeping the franchise.
Pink & Bule cross country makes me sick
I used to travel Cross Country regularly from the old BR days.
If I am being honest, I never disliked the Voyagers, but never considered them up to the standard of the refurbished HST sets. I noticed a significant improvement in service and increase in passenger numbers when Virgin took over, but a definite drop when they lost the franchise to Arriva.
I wonder how the latest improvements will fare.
I remember travelling on a Virgin air con mark 2 coach behind a class 47 back in 1999. Plenty of space and place to store luggage. Much better experience.
Cross county should take on class 222 stock.
I get Northern Spirit vibes from that new livery but I think they should be going with a slightly darker red like on the 158s
They need to either extend the trains or get new longer trains
That’s why XC is acquiring additional units…
Sticking plaster on an open wound. It won't do anything for the Tokyo metro experience that Cross Country offer on a daily basis. The whole fleet needs replacing with proper intercity trains rather than the toytown ones put on long distance routes. Voyagers were supposed to transform the intercity Cinderella into a princess but we all know what happened in Cinderella. Midnight struck within months of them being introduced as they were quickly found to be inadequate. Things have only got worse when Arriva won the contract and it is the only operator not to look at buying new trains. Replacement with 9 or 10 car trains cannot come quick enough and we currently have an experience far worse than BR would ever have offered.
Dreadful trains get awful repaints!
Just polishing a turd…
Shaky old diesel engines pumping out fumes at stations …
Had my first trip on a Anglia electric train recently what a difference experience to the junk I use around Leicester…
Old livery is better
"Impressive Voyager Fleet" - THEY MUST BE JOKING - the Voyagers are one of the worst train designs ever. A quick lick of paint won't stop them being too small, too crowded, too noisy, too smelly and too many rattles. These trains don't need an upgrade - they need replacing. Why they were ever brought into service is beyond me.
They're impressive.
Impressively shit, that is.
Agreed. Why we aren’t getting bi-modes amazes me. Running diesel stock from say Coventry to Manchester under the wires is crazy.
Cross country will never get the class 80X because most routes ran by cross country run on diesel only lines for along time
(Bristol - Leeds)
Maybe not on every route, but there's still a lot of routes with substantial sections of Electrification (e.g. Manchester - Bournemouth is about 2/3rds electrified)
Rock hard commuter style seats like all the other intercity refits then. Thank you TOCs, you bring so much more than just paint and bad ideas
CrossCountry should retain their current rolling stocks (Class 220 and Class 221 Voyagers) with the Ex-Avanti West Coast Class 221 transferred to CrossCountry and to also keep the Class 170 Turbostars. And the EMR Class 222 Meridians to be cascaded to ScotRail or GWR.
That seems to be the plan with the exception of the 222s getting cascaded. GWR is supposedly getting 175s and ScotRail is ordering new trains to replace its HSTs leaving the 222s free to be used by potential open access operators or to provide additional support to the CrossCountry fleet
hopefully could mean Chiltern get the meridians?
Why does Andrew Gwilt have a second account?
Need to rebuild the British locomotive and rolling stock industry.
No chance, that's dead along with everything else "British", as by WEF design
@@Hascienda27 It’s not dead it’s just not British owned.
No mention of the main fault in these trains being fixed, namely that they usually stink of human waste presumably due to the toilet vacuum pump exhaust being too near to the A/C system fresh air inlet duct. Why the trains were accepted from Bombardier with this disgusting fault is beyond me. I see that Alstom have now aquired Bomardier, I hope they will make sure that this chronic fault is corrected. A great shame because these are, of course, very capable trains with great acceleration similar to an electric train and are built strongly to protect in case of a derailment. Also I've never seen a Voyager Diesel engine smoke.
I seem to recall some work was done to address the smell issue a while ago, but clearly it wasn't that effective!
@@NetworkNewsUK Sometimes they just use a VERY powerful lemon smell to try to mask it ! i don't think that 1st Class escapes it, as it should be ! 😂😂
the meridian fixed the issue, alstom diesels have been having issues for about 20 years
trains need replacing .. i live in the south-west .. when the trains always get cancelled during wet weather,, terminating either Bristol or Exeter
alternatively fully open the north Dartmoor route .. via Tavistock .. at least the trains would continue to Plymouth and beyond
but what trains would cross country buy to replace voyagers.. i hate the comfort of the 801's maybe a more comfortable version of the 800 series..
As long as they get rid of thay toilet smell I’ll be happy
Awful trains. I actively avoid them and would rather drive. Talk about polishing a turd!
get rid of them. I travel from Sheffield to derby burton and Tamworth normally but do sometimes go north on them and since the HSTs got retired xc has just been horible with the only half denent trains in the fleet being the 170s
CrossCountry should keep the Class 220 and Class 221 Voyagers. And to inherit the Class 221 from Avanti West Coast that have been replaced by the Class 805 Bi-mode.
Plus the Class 170 Turbostars should also get the full treatment if CrossCountry were to keep them or to be transferred to Northern. As East Midlands Railway has enough Class 170 Turbostars.
Well that seems to be the plan!
Cross Country should also inherit the fleet of 222’s from EMR once the 810’s are in service. This would then boost capacity on their key routes but doubling more services
Andrew. It has been agreed for 12 Class 221 units to be transferred from Avanti to XC. Several units are already in service.
Why you think that XC should lose Class 170 units, I do not know.
I would personally have liked to see XC buy EMR's fleet of soon-to-be-replaced 8-9 coach Class 222 Meridans but clearly those extra West Coast used 60 coaches spread out across the Birmingham to Southampton and Penzance to Edinburgh routes will be welcome if it works out at maybe another 2 coaches per train. Putting aside luggage storage,overcrowding & toilet issues,mechanically speaking i have never had any problems with the Voyager and 1 set went the absolute clappers trying to make up for lost time between Sheffield & Chesterfield,covering the normal 13 minute journey and using the down gradient at Dronfield and late breaking to reach Chesterfield Station in under 10 minutes.
CrossCountry is leasing units, not buying from Beacon or Eversholt.
There goes the seats into concrete
Still.need more trains and 60 carriages Arriva 1sq capital service own cross country train limited
They should be replaced by hybrids.
will that stop them smelling of pee?
Let's hope so but I wouldn't count on it!
DJ Wild Thang
Cross country is the worst railway company going they need to fully replace the 221s
I’d rather spend £60m on new trains so the fleet can be expanded. Let’s face it, a refurb will be an excuse to keep these stupid trains running for even longer
@@bfapple better than +0 which is what the refurb will achieve
@@bfapple which have all recently been refurbed! So I’d still rather than additional new units plus the 221s (as is) than polishing some turds.
@@bfapple no it wasn’t.
the livery looks ugly tbh..
Just the simple fact of painting over the current colour - _Suppurating Bolus?_ - will raise spirits wherever they go.