Cut 50% weight from valve, spring & retainer.
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- Опубликовано: 6 авг 2024
- In this. episode 75 part 6, of uncle Tony's 'Mission Impossible' project to make 318 hp from a 318 SB Mopar using the original 256 cfm 2 brl carb DV explains some of the necessary stratagies. Part of this is a huge valve train mass reduction by parts selection. Best yet it is all done on a very low buck budget and even better the parts he show to use are very much wolves in sheeps clothing. In other words some very much under-priced hi-perfromance parts good for more than just this project.
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I've never considered valve spring weight to be part of the valvetrain weight, I always thought you wanted lighter valves lighter rockers lighter keepers lighter retainers because those are all moving parts but I always considered the spring to be kind of stationery (even though it doesn't move) because it's not putting any additional weight on the top of the valve only open and seated pressure! I'm still trying to wrap my head around of how the weight of the valve spring itself makes a difference but it does totally makes sense now! I just never thought of valve spring weight before! DV is the master for a reason!
Rusty,
the top of the spring moves exacty the same amount as the retainer. Half way down the sprinf the coil moves only half the amount. The base moves zero amount.
Laws of physics simply stated it takes energy to move mass . More mass ,more energy.
Roughly half the weight of the spring in calculations…
Yes you have active coils and inactive coils DV is right again.
This gave rise to conical and beehive type springs when applied singularly. The next generation of valve springs will be not only conical and rising rate but have variable wire diameter along its length before forming into a coil , to respect the relationship of wire diameter to overall coil diameter . This may require a move away from the usual silicon chrome and chrome vanadium steels to other grades with natural integral damping arrive at through the metallurgy .
Absolute gold, thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge.....long live gasoline engines!
I like the Lotus motto "simplify and add lightness" and that's what your doing.
This is quintessential hot-rodding. I love it! 👍
You're Awesome DV thank you. 😎👍 Hope to meet you someday 🙏
Charlie is really working hard on the the heads and intakes on this project ! I think it's going to be exciting.
I really enjoy listening to all the things you’ve learned over your career. You are very professional. I’d love to attend your school someday.
Wow, I learned a lot in a very short time, well done. Subscribed. What a great way to honor Jacque and support a great cause. She is beaming standing over that engine, and I'm sure beaming looking down on this one.
So much info was just given out. You amaze me. You have decades of cutting edge design experience. Following this series and loving it.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom. Your description of the pressure drop across the intake pathway was gold.
David your a badass 😎
I’m kinda shocked the LS platform can help out with this project. Pretty neat way to think outside the box. 👏
Always great content David Thanks
I started using stock 5.3 LS springs with a Comp Cam retainer on SBC’s about ten years ago. They work well on mild street builds and they allow you to run more lift on the vortec head without cutting down the valve guide. Pretty sure I was paying less than $3.00 per spring.
Great video. I just love the concept of the beehive and conical springs. Seems like a no brainer given the proper budget.
Please keep sharing your vast knowledge
Very intrersting thank you. A man by the name of Mal Stuart (A great rally driver of Sunbeams and Avengers RIP) once gave me a tip for the cam follower bucket in a Hillman Avenger pushrod engine, to lighten it by cutting approx 10mm from the top of the bucket and also drilling another hole on the side near the base to let the oil run out quicker, hence being lighter.
I enjoy your dedicated work David
I wish that I had known about you 30 years ago!
This is a really neat project.
Great program , thank you D.V.
Great stuff. Hello from Germany. I have been reading your books for years, Jep. Before the internet. I shared this video on my personal page, and will also share it on a few other groups on Facebook. All the best, Jonathan.
Just started binge watching this and damn near wet my noodle when u said 8k rpm Jesus! , im also currently building a magnum 318, just started porting the heads and will be doing all of the rotating assembly mods u mentioned as well as looking for some behive springs 8k rpm here i come!!!
Great content as usual!
Remember to use deep spring cups. The oil that they will hold, will save premature spring failure.
Super informative. Really appreciate
yes more knowledge from DV!
Good info on the behives.
I looove this channel 🔥
I love these hidden jems
It would be really cool to see this applied to a more modern 4 cylinder engine like a K20/K24. If you could keep most of the strength and reduce the weight of the rotating and valve components you could use a bigger cam and rev out with slightly lower cylinder pressures. Unopened they can make 400-600hp with boost so moving that way up the rev range would make a lot of juice.
There's lots of thinking going on here.
I am watching this series preparing to rebuild the 22r in my Toyota... I'm hoping to end up with OVER 100 HORSEPOWER from a "stock" rebuild :) actually, I'm using a Weber carb, Offy manifold and header so I might end up closer to 120hp lol
‘Amateur’ is french with the Latin root ‘Amar’ which means to love. Amateurs do something for the love of doing it. Amateurs are, in a sense, the purest class.
I think that is just right!
Love the content, I am trying to shed mass on my 3800 & sbf 8.2 valve train. My titanium LS retainers are 5.5 grams ,tool steel modified 8.0 grams
Thank you sir. Great info.
I installed a set of those bee-hive springs in my Corvair engine and they were possibly the best money I spent on engine parts, as they are lighter and achieve higher RPMs than the stock springs, by far - I turn 8K RPMs w/ hydraulic lifters and zero float.
Great vidja guys 🤙🏼
Built a 6g72 that weighs about 25 lbs lighter than oem. aluminum flywheel,+1mm Hollow stem valves with dished faces., billet pistons and forged rods that about 1/4lbs lighter than oem per rod, Cam gears that weighed about 1.5lbs less than stock, And here this guy is telling me I couldve dropped even more. Definintly keeping this info in mind incase I build another one.
I have heard of titanium retainers having a very limited lifespan due to fretting on the steel spring, but it may be a function of how well fitted the retainer is to the spring. I have seen titanium retainers last many thousands of miles, but also were a very tight fit to the spring. I have rejected valvespring kits for projects if the titanium retainer has any looseness when fitted to the spring. Something to consider when mixing/matching valvetrain components.
Thanks David.
I have double valve springs that have no float at 8krpm (concentric). The damper engineering is very interesting and the material.
Thanks David
Excellent video detailing pros and cons of different springs, retainers, manufacturers and applications! Waiting to see your research on pricing the beehives for the Mopar application. The other conical applications were obviously a better deal price and value wise, and I wonder if the beehives are necessary to help reach the goal if mission impossible- look forward to the outcome!
As a retired physicist who has taught these principles to students of physical science and engineering in my college physics courses, I appreciate you making the excellent point about how the spring's mass affects the resonant frequency of a mass-spring oscillator. It can be shown, through energy methods, that a real mass-spring oscillator with distributed spring mass can be converted to an equivalent oscillator with zero spring mass and having all the mass in the load if you replace the load mass with an effective mass equal to the sum of the load mass plus ⅓ of the spring mass. After doing the derivation of the theory in class I would do an experimental demonstration before the class to verify by comparing the theoretical computed resonant frequency with the actual measured frequency.
The same energy method can be used to compute the theoretical resonant frequency of any of the reciprocating components in the valvetrain and to combine them all to compute the overall resonant frequency of the valvetrain.
Jim, I;d like to go back to school on that one - can you help out on this?
DV
David, I'd be more than happy to. As somebody who's been a passionate car enthusiast my whole life, I take great satisfaction in learning from others, as I do in watching your interesting and informative videos, and in sharing knowledge and experience with others.
I could send you an email attachment in a PDF form with a handwritten derivation. The easiest way is to do it using calculus, although I could also do it using algebra and geometry.
@@videomaniac108 how do I get hold of you?
WHOA! way over my head I ain’t gonna lie !
@@videomaniac108 interesting! Could I get a copy too?
Hey, David there are a bunch of Mercedes that used a behive valve spring. There might be some cross over if you want to make a custom retainer. I would love for you to start making a diesel series. I have a project that is going to start happening soon with a Mercedes OM606. Think 6BT but 3.0L, twice the valves, and half the weight. It's a pretty cool engine. Once I'm done with that I will probably move into a project for something common rail.
Amateurs or novices or hobbiests. Most people don't spend their lives making a good living and professional automotive racing and engineering. Even the best professionals are always learning.
I was at a 13 or 17 gram reduction on the rods. With the ARP nuts, I would change my guess to 28 grams off the rods.
Did put 7008 isky outer with stock inner spring to be gentle at about 130 at seat whith a healty 300+ open(from memory). Often, people put outer and inner springs together :this give 180 seat. Way too much. (Porsche 2.5 inline) thanks for sharing your science! 500+ lift capacity . What cannot be taken by the cam tower lobewise without big changes...
Scavenging is so important to ade the process.
great. thanks.
I will do it and everything your doing to my 318. All original 1982 chrysler new yorker. 26,000 miles.
I have personally sanded valves, and balanced the valvetrain. So valve float occurs close to the same rpm across the engine.
A lot of heavy road car parts have race car parts inside them. You just have to dig them out.
Dave has forgotten more than most people know.
For what’s it worth, if y’all spin a valve in a lathe, and use a drill with a rosin roll or flap wheel, on the underside of the head, you can get a decent swirl polished finish and it does a good job of cleaning up roughness on stock valves.
I'm really enjoying this. If you could put up the links for these parts, we could help support the program with our purchases. I'd especially like to know what beehive springs and retainers will work without machining. Also, are the stem diameters and height the same on the LS valves?
Groovy
I have lots of LS beehive valve springs and I agree with the benefits. I have regularly seen them used on SBC and have heard you talk about them on Big Block Chevy too. I want to do that for a BBC project. DV or anyone else have any specific info on BBC Beehive spring conversion?
I have a bit of disagreement regarding the carb size, you are going to reach mach at the venturi which will stall airflow automatically and nothingt you do down wind will stop that. There is a literal limit to airflow in a N/A motor and no amount of work on the heads can overcome that. The only you get from lightening valve train mass is how fast the motor will accelerate and reducing parasitic losses. Ring tension and improving the efficiency of the oil pump (a huge parasitic drag on the motor) are the best places to free up HP on a restricted inlet motor.
Would you recommend this lightening work for a Ford Kent engine? I've got your book tuning old-school ford escort, Cortina, Capris. Do you still stand by the information in that book? Anything you would have said different today?
Howard springs when up to 62$ when I looked on Summit today. 16$ raised in 8 months. 35% increase. When is it gonna stop to profit on our back from auto parts industries we count on?
What kind of rpm would you expect with a beehive spring and 40-50lb boost on it? I understand NA but would you still use it with big boost? I wouldn't think their would be enough seat/open pressure. I haven't tried yet to know. I've used them in heaps of NA stuff.
I wish I had the money to have Mr. Visard build me an engine.
It's a 'z' not an 's'!
I am trying to teach you how to do it right here on this channel!
I bet Mr. Visard can do it for 75% of the price, 50% of the horsepower, and 25% of the reliability of an engine build by Mr. Vizard.
when you give to charity it comes back many fold!
What do you think about cryo and REM treatment?
7:53 when you weighed the valve you put them in different positions which will effect the gram read out ?
I've been wanting to see this topic coverd on valve train. Would using lighter, valves , springs and retaines affect the spring lift rating ?
Do they make a beehive spring retainer for 10* locks?
How do you feel about reversed wound flat wire dampers?
Please, *_For The Love Of God_* use both an ARP rod nut *and* bolt... 🙂
I've seen *way* too many of the stock ones stretch and even strip the threads upon attempted re-installation...
That goes against the spirit of the budget build.
@@TIMEtoRIDE900 Just *ROD BOLTS,* not main bolts, or head bolts, not timing cover / water pump bolts or intake bolts or any other unnecessary bolts... Just a $60 set of *_ROD BOLTS_* to be sure the engine doesn't self-destruct after all this effort!
Stock rod bolts should basically be considered a _"wear item,"_ especially if you don't know the history and provenance of the rods. You're not seriously expecting them to run used bearings and piston rings too, are you?! *_Budget_** build* is one thing, but you're being a bit absurd... 🙄
I’m sure he will check them with a stretch gauge and verify them
👍💪
This is a great video. I love this kind of content. I have a question: I know that reducing valvetrain weight makes it easier for the engine to turn higher rpms, reduces wear on the components, and generally makes it easier for the motor to rev quickly, but sometimes I hear guys say it also makes the engine produce better 'under the curve' power. Is this true, or is that more related to camshaft choice and airflow?
Thanks, David. Valvetrains are one of my favorite systems.
Very often mediocre valve springs will go through a minor 'bounce' phase that could occure severl time as rpm increases.
A spring with better damping and a higher resonant frequencey could fix that and so produce more power.
@@DavidVizard Good info. Thanks for replying!
Also because most dynos now measure hp with an increasing rpm sweep less mass will result in faster acceleration so it will indicate more horsepower. The actual produced power like for dragging a heavy trailer up a mountain at WOT and 0 acceleration would not be increased.
@@bcbloc02 Oh wow, I would have never thought of this. That was appreciated
6:43 I've been wondering if you would create controlled vacuum leaks as a way to get more air into the engine. Now after hearing you talk about increasing the vacuum signal it looks like my thoughts may have been barking up the wrong tree.
Remove pcv vale and rerout hose from base of carburetor to above choke in air cleaner lid. Filter element creates mild restriction that causes blow by to be recycled into intake and slight vacume on piston rings.
Street cars normally driven can not use header port vacume.Keep every inch of vacume you make.
Have You Found Out Any More Info . on the New Springs You Were telling Us About
Whats the trade off of thinning the face of the valves. You said your anti reversion groove makes it more flexible as it is.
Maybe i missed it, but with the LS spring being so much larger, are the heads going to be cut to match or are the valves going to be machined down and re-cut?
What if you do that 50 times? Can you make it weightless?
At 4:56, how do you do the anti-reversion mod? Please explain how it minimizes reversion?
WHy don't you put one of those helmholtz resonators inside the intake manifold to essentially suck more air through the carb like the NASCAR restrictor plate engines do
175 gram total weight reduction of the connecting rod
After reducing weight on the rods, you now are force to blueprint the crank right?
What about polishing the sides of the big end of the rods where they meet each other, and the crank? There can be friction there and the oil will probably keep them apart, but seems to me being extra smooth, will eliminate any chances of friction! Would it be a good idea?
But dont throw off the thrust . Lightly polish , all friction reduction frees up ponies.
You're supposed to have LOTS of rod-crank clearance not only for rod bearing cooling but to sling oil up to the piston and the camshaft-lifters.
Any news on the beehive spring you were looking into?
Chrysler 3.3 / 3.8 v6 engines had nice little beehive springs.
Hello. Can you talk about the shape of the valves. I mean the angles of tulip and radius between steam and head.
See episode 59!
@@DavidVizard thanks, i will have to reduce the tulip angle on the intake valves
top
486g for the rod
is there a place to obtain all of your videos as a package? thanks
My best guess is to copy them off RUclips
GM OE springs are VERY inexpensive.
Intake valve reduction:
28 grams is one OUNCE....😲
Can you put holes in the center of the I beam?
only if you want them to put holes in the side of your block :)
might be picking up pieces off the ground after you twist it up
Looks like the PAC 1218 beehives are under 40 bucks and rated for .600" lift. Am I missing something here?
Mr 413x398 (bore & stroke?) I strongly supect they are a cheap off-shore knock off, Just look at the surface finish - it looks well below what PAC put out.
DV
@@DavidVizard Yes, you are probably right. BUT, since we are talking budget building, shouldn't we check these out for giggles? And maybe compare them to the Howards springs?
And yes, bore and stroke. Many.
@@413x398 Find Powell's machine channel. He shows just HOW BAD those knock-off springs are right out of the box.
It's crazy just how mismatched they are. Both in poundage and spring rate. They should never be put into an engine.
Those Howards springs are only good for .500" lift, according to Summit. Kinda dinky cam, no? At 1.25" outside diameter, isn't some kind of cup necessary?
You can't trust that. Published numbers and measured numbers are two completely different things.
I meant 70 grams total
Excuse me sir, Mr Vizard, You weigh The LS valve off center from the scale where it is not an accurate reading. And I know you know better. What does the LS valve really weigh?
David, the idea of using used titanium retainers, and machining them to fit, is completely unrealistic to most of us. How many of us have used Ti retainers just laying around? How many of us have the tooling or ability to machine titanium anything? This is NOT in the bottom-dollar ethos of Mission Impossible.
Jeff, I am attempting to give you guys all the options I can pull out of my hat of ideas. I was hoping that it was clear that I was starting with some very bsic moves and work uopfrom there. If you believe that is not coming across do me a favor please and let me know. Thanks
Um, I just bought a set of 16 Ti used retainers off eBay for 20$ so pretty much anyone can have those sitting around. I also have a Bridgeport I got for 500$ in my garage. And I work for the phone co so am an amateur that would love to see DV machine his own Ti retainers. Maybe that will motivate me to make my own retainers. Either way you should try being positive because your negativity sounds a lot like my 2 year old daughter complaining.
What about Chromoly ones?
well you just put the price up on the springs from summit cheers🤔
How bout you center that ls valve on the scale ⚖️
Okay, I consider myself an amateur mechanic meaning I don't make a living by being a mechanic. I have a question. When you say $130 except for the a set of springs, does that mean a set of two per cylinder or does that mean asset for the whole engine eight cylinders. Sorry for the dumb question like I said I'm not a professional mechanic
That's for 16 springs.
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