THIS IS NOT STEREO
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
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If you like to take mono tracks, duplicate them and use fancy tricks to
make them sound wide and stereo, stop it. :) This video will show you
why that's a bad idea (and what to do instead).
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As per Steve Albini - when doubling guitars the RULE is to use different instruments and amps. If you can't do that use different gauge strings, capo the part, basically do anything you can to make the 2nd take as different as you can sonically. Do not just play the same exact setup twice and pan it, it sounds BORING and you make phase problems a possibility.
Been doing this without knowing what I was doing but somehow managed to get the sound I wanted. Awesome explanation. Thanks
I have a guitarist friend like that. We work across the Europe so he records his own stuff and I mix it.
He's sent me a set of 4 songs once with loads of guitar tracks each and a reference track so I can see what he is going for.
Problem was, that each guitar track in each song was playing something completely different. There was nothing to double. One guitar would be a main riff, the other just slides, another a classical intro and so on.
When I listened to the reference he's sent me I thought, there is no way I can make it so wide, full and powerful. I wrote back to him and said - look, I need you to re-record guitar track 1, 3 and 4 so I can use it as a double. He replied. No, just copy the existing tracks and pan them left and right. When I explained that it doesn't work like that he just said - well I don't remember the set up now and I don't record DI tracks so you have to deal with what you've got.
And allegedly guitar players are the smartest ones in the band.... 🤦
i've used the guitar from the next verse as a double for the first verse etc. in the past.
That's why it always helps to not only use a mic up, but DI record the guitar at the same time. At least then you can run the DI track thru an Amp sim to create a duplicate track.
I have learned a lot in the past three years from you Joe. I knew what you were going to say before you said it in this video! Thanks for everything man! Your work is appreciated!✌
I laughed at the title knowing fullwell what was going to be said, may I introduce you to phase?
I remembered recording andand recording the guitar track twice using the same guitar. The guy that recorded it called it a mirror track, and he said it was common to do so.
Don't forget about the chorus pedal, or a doubler plugin. There are quite a few of them to choose from, and some can deliver good results.
I do it...!!!
Only thing is
If you read this far
you might be mad at me for wasting your time HAHAHAH
BUT NO I use the method for keeping the settings and I delete the audio and record the second guitar on the copied track!!! one useful operation in my book!!!
I like to use my stereo Digitech RP500 multi effects pedal that is stereo, and send the L and R to two different amps (one a Fender Princeton and one a Gallien Krueger solid state). Then I mic each amp (in different parts of the studio). It is especially large when I use panning or modulation that moves between the two. Now how that winds up sounding through a mono system, I don't really care. I don't know that many people that still have mono listening capability only. I assume, if there was panning, there simply would be a solid sound instead on mono. With my hardware synthesizer, and a Quantum 2626, I plug the left and right channel into two inputs. Since that synth is a stereo one. And then I can either record as two tracks at once L and R or I can combine the two inputs into one Stereo track.
Hey Joe, how would you go about making a mono acoustic guitar sound fuller without necessarily making it sound stereo? Im working on a song with a mono acoustic guitar until after thr first chorus where i have doubles recorded and panned hard left and right for width to create contrast with what came before. Hiw would you make the mono acoustic sound full and not thin, yet not huge wide stereo?
I’ve tried duplicating the track even when I knew I wasn’t supposed to. I added some stereo delay etc etc and got something that sounded kinda good. And then recorded two separate takes and even without plugins it sounded way better. Had to prove it to myself so I would never be tempted to dupe again.
When you are setting up a new project just delete the audio form the duplicate and start recording...
Way back in the days of Dolby Surround, sounds that were completely out of phase were sent to the rear channel. Occasionally a TV commercial would have its audio flipped, and the sound through your home theater would only come through the surround speakers. The rest of the world, watching on a mono TV, didn't hear anything at all.
wish I had known this a while back when a nationally syndicated radio show played one of my tunes. I was pretty excited at first but I soon became Horribly Embarrassed to hear how shockingly AWFUL it sounded over AM radio. That was kind of a bad day in my life. Thanks, Joe!!
A. I’m so sorry you had to deal with that.
B. It’s a great “cautionary tale” for everyone else.
Joe, this is so basic you shouldn't even have to do a video on it.
GET TO THE POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!! $%%^!
Hello and thanks for the help. Maybe you can help me with this. I recorded a song in S.O. V5. I want to move it v6.6.1. How would I go about that?
Word of advice: when you have a technical question, first try to solve it yourself, so that when you ask the question, you can say, “Here’s what I tried.”
The fun side effect is that you would have discovered that there’s nothing you need to do. Just open the v5 version in v6. It just opens.
Okay. But what is the essential difference between 1. copying a track, panning them, and delaying one, and 2. sending a track to a delay plugin and panning the return?
Anyway... what I'm referring to above, the so-called Haas technique, isn't about creating width, it's about imparting dimensionality to a particular instrument. The phase issues that are introduced are fairly easily minimized by 1. bringing the copied track (or delayed) down a bit, and 2. carefully using a low pass and a high pass on the copied (or delayed) signal, which helps minimize the more egregious comb filtering issues, and 3. adjusting the delay time while in mono to check for any audible issues. Often, it really doesn't take all that much delay time to create the added sense of dimensionality this creates.
BTW... LCR -- which I hate LOL -- isn't stereo, either, nor is recording a second pass and panning it opposite. In any case, I routinely use the above Haas technique even on, for example, two guitars, one positioned left, the other right. It takes more time, and it can be tricky, but just that little bit of added dimensionality, to me, is worth it
I mean, these are mistakes only a complete beginner in mixing would make, but I guess it's nice to go back to basics sometimes!
Yup. That’s who this channel is for.
Talking about anologue mixers. I have a 12 channel, 4 sub mixer.
Using the busses (SUB), I can port the sound signal directly to an outboard interface via the connections on the board. 4 chanels of input
Using the 2 aux sends in post fader mode, I can send 2 more channels to an outboard interface.
Using the channel strip master section, I can send a left and right, 2 more channels to an outboard interface.
The manufacturer won't help and nobody ever seems to answer.
Joe - Very Good again TOPIC. So true what you said plus some other TIps That would have made your VID longer. PERFECT :) So True ,So True, George Amodei :)
Stop being lazy, just double the part.
^^^ THIS
Once you get a good guitar take, play & record it again! Aside from that...just for kicks: Dupe a track, apply some small EQ bumps and dips, exactly opposite for the tracks, and also apply a small amount of distortion (or other effect) to just one of the tracks. Would that work? * I'll try it myself, unless I forget to get around to it. ;)
Thank you Joe... I finally understand stereo vs mono. I'm assuming this approach stands for any source, including vocals? I've been trying to add stereo width to my vocals and think I've been doing it all wrong.....
For a simple recording of solo guitar and vocals, as an alternative to two microphones at each end of the guitar body, I have used the mid-side approach. Cardioid microphone pointed at the favorite spot and a figure-8 perpendicular right below it, each with its own track. Take the figure-8 track, duplicate it and flip the polarity of the new track. Cardioid panned center, the figure-8 tracks panned hard right and left. The first time I tried it I was surprised how wide it sounded. I have also used it for voice-over spoken work. Not sure how it works, but it does.
Hey Joe - do you have any advice for when you want to mike something with two mics, NOT because you want to capture a stereo image, but because you want to BLEND the sound of two different microphones? this happens when i record guitar parts a lot. I like the sound of a dynamic for clarity/punch mixed with a ribbon for warmth/depth. i try to follow the 5-step mix guide to a tee, as i believe in the philosophy, but it's tough to go through the static mix phase when I have sounds i ultimately want to be mono, when they were captured in stereo. i find myself reaching for the binaural pan, splitter with channel split and volume adjusting, .. etc.
i know this is a common use case, any advice from your years of recording experience?
If they weren’t meant to be stereo. Don’t make them stereo. I’m not quite sure. I’m following with the problem is. Just pan them both to the middle. If you are saying that you recorded it to a stereo track, that’s your problem. Record them to individual mono tracks.
Can anyone explain why the phase flipped acoustic, when listened to in headphones, sounded really close and intimate? It had a cool vibe even if it wouldn't work in mono. In my headphones it sounded really close like it was right next to my head. What is going on there?
Hi Joe, with method 3, did you send to the delay pedal prefader or postfader or does it not matter?
Another tip is to hard pan the instrument and send it to à reverb or delay hard panned on the opposite side.
Sophisticate 😂 . Crazy , I've tried every single one before. Even try pan width opposite sides.
Great lesson Joe. ln my opinion the mono guitars sound far better than "stereo" for the very reason you mentioned: a guitar recording is a mono recording, and you demonstrated very well how it all can go south when you try to fake a stereo. On the other hand, two guitars panned left and right are still two guitars, not one stereo guitar, and the taste of the performance is completely lost in that case. When you played the original guitar in mono the first thing I thought was "that's perfect" l can hear all the nice nuances of a guitar performance.
record a guitar track, pan left, record another track..pan right
what is this shiny mic? Prototype Presonus?
Always valuable advice at the exact time I need it.Thanks
What about duplicating the track, panning it and adding a different set of effects? Different reverb, maybe a phaser, etc. Any value there?
No.
8:55 “NO…you didn’t” 🤣🤣🤣
Lots of ways to create width with routing - what I got most out of this is to avoid phase cancelation
I think the bigger lesson is for people to stop trying to make mono signals sound stereo.
It's obv not as good as true doubling BUT... can't you just take 2 instances of the guitar, process them differently/independently, and hard pan them L/R?
e.g. saturate them differently and also use a a plug in like Waves ADT (which will introduce independent wow/flutter on each channel) ?
People keep asking the same question. Duplicating it and processing it differently is not stereo. I’ve heard good things about that plug-in. But most people who are duplicating tracks are ruining things.
@@HomeStudioCorner I dig it. Really love your content, btw. I've gotten TONS of info on recording vocals from you!
Hi Joe, I have a question, I like to record a bunch of guitar tracks and then comp to get my final track, the question I have is I like to make doubles doing the same thing so once I get a comp that I like, I like to export that to a new track and then use the existing guitar takes And make another comp for a double, is there a way to mark the segments of the takes that you use for one comp so that it’s easier to make the 2nd comp so you don’t reuse the same parts of a take?
I’m sure there is but I don’t know how. Sounds like an overly complicated approach. For giggles, you should try recording without all those takes. Record it once. Then record it again on another track. I understand that maybe there are mistakes, but one way to get better is to force yourself to perform better, rather than relying on comping, etc.
I have in the past successfully used an acoustic guitar take, double it, and then on the double, edit it so Verse 1 is actually Verse 2, Chorus 2 is Chorus 1 etc etc. it means when you play both tracks together, they aren’t actually playing the same thing, one track is playing verse 1 while the other is playing verse 2 and so on. Treat each track a bit different with eq, and you get a nice wide stereo image, which collapses to mono nicely. Doesn’t work on all songs (depending on song structure and arrangement, and playing), but it can work.
joe, i have been duplicating the tracks, panning them then puting different speaker sims on each. if you have done this i would love your opinion.
Its still fake stereo nothing beats doubled guitars but it can be a usefull tool for filling in the middle between 2 tracks of doubled guitars
That one is a little more interesting, because there are plenty of guitar players who play through multiple different amps. It’s still not stereo though.
i'm just looking to fill gaps not to mention i'm not too good at duplicate playing. i do agree nothing beats playing twice for various reasons, i simply believe i'm not good enough.
thanks for the responses
But Joe...your guitar track was stereo to start with?
I'm confused by this also.
Same signal on L and R makes it perfectly mono. You can achieve this result by recording one mic signal on stereo track (at least in some of DAW).
That’s just how the guy exported it. He exported everything as stereo files. It’s still a mono signal. You can tell by listening to it.
How many guitars do I need for Atmos? 😂 Asking for my credit card…
All of them
Thanks Joe. One thing to consider if someone is in a situation where thay have to fake the stereo double, is that when you record two guitar parts of the same section and double it, one of the recordings will have slightly different pitch changes than the other one because the strings would likely be pushed down slightly harder in one of them, and also the neck on the guitar can bend minutely, causing the pitch to vary slightly throughout a recording.
This in itself can help the double recording sound wider, and so we could emulate that in a single recording by modulating/varying the pitch slightly in either the left side, or the right side..
I love it. Mono will never be stereo. My single friends say they will never get married...why because they like being single
And how about making a copy of the single guitar and changing it's pitch slightly? And maybe then sliding it a few ms?
I just don’t understand why you would want to. At best it will sound mildly interesting. At worst you ruin something.
It would be courteous of you to warn viewers that getting your 5-Step Mix Guide requires giving you their real e-mail, confirming it, and being placed on a mailing list.
Doesn't every place require that??
Yup that’s why that exists.