One difference you didn't mention regarding housing is that in American dorms you'd generally have roommates. You're actually sharing your bedroom with someone else (probably a complete stranger at first). In the Netherlands you might have housemates, having to share the bathroom and kitchen, but your bedroom is always private.
Yeah I was shocked when I found out American students might pay higher rent to share a tiny room with a random stranger than I was paying to have my own room.
I'm an American doing my bachelor's degree in the Netherlands, and I've definitely come across these clashes of expectations/cultures related to university, both in coming here and when I talk to friends and family in the US. The difference I've found is the notion of campus life vs more 'adult' living (yes, I realise that as a student you are still very much not in the 'real world' and are often heavily supported by parents/guardians)-- I get the sense from talking to friends in the US that they associate their identity as more of a student at X university, whereas students in NL lean more to the side of being an adult who also attends university.
I always found the idea of campuses weird. Here in Argentina universities with campuses are rarities and absolutely none have dorms, instead most universities have faculty buildings spread through the city. Not only that does for an easier "commute" (I just walked to classes almost every day) it also carries the idea that high education is made to serve and shaped by society and culture. You just can't see that the same way while being stuck in an "ivory tower".
@@robinwolferink7315This is the sad truth about it. So many schools are located in rural or suburban areas that you need to drive and maintain a car to get to/from school, housing, retail, and work.
The pressure on Dutch kids is when they're 11 or 12, to get into the VWO/Gymnasium school level. If you don't get there, the route to university will take longer and require more determination. But that pressure typically comes from peers and parents, i.e. kids' closest social circles, not the schools. They will perhaps comment that a kid is talented and should try for something, but that is it.
That's only if you feel your life is over without university education. But 'scientific education' is nor has even been fitting for most of the studenst. Science is for the smartest, but in the USA college is a very expensive ticket to access the decent part of the labour market. Really, if university fits you, rather than just being to your advantage careerwise, you'll get into the VWO, no problem. Then you get the lovely '6 is adequate' experience. The bar is set, high but not too high for your. You don't have to show off, you don't have to show that basically you are too smart for the level by getting high grades, you can struggle with puberty or temptations for a year without it being disastrous for your school career, just get over the bar with little margin to spare, and maybe later on you will find a subject to excell on. Or you do a lot of sports or play in a band, whatever, just make the bar and you're free to do anything you want. The problem is mainly with children from a lower educated background who hit puberty at 12 and are judged on their bad year and lack of input from and around home. But they can take the long route. School can't fully compensate for background right away.
gymnasium ? Who needs gymnasium? Though the selection moment is young age, it is quite well possible to move from HAVO to VWO (or VMBO to HAVO) , or from HAVO via HBO (apllied science Uni) to Universitiy (research uni ). I know someone who dropped from HAVO to VMBO and did ,age 16, 2 years (vocational tec) MTS and then 2-3 years HTS (bachelor diploma) continued with 14 months at a dutch dependance of a british Uni for a engineer Master ( global top 5 ranked in his discipline), aged 21-22 . Imo the pressure in US to get a good scholarship is much higher than in NL ...
@@lws7394 As someone who did not really care about grades and cared more about social life when I was young (and tbh, I still do) and went from Primary School to VMBO to MBO, to HBO to ultimately graduating University, I can tell you that its quite difficult to make it from a situation where your grades are not that great in primary school to University. The Dutch eduction system has its advantages but also its disadvantages where you are tracked into a more practical education or a more scientific education at a fairly young age. Namely: after your primary school you are tracked into one of 3 categories of high school (VMBO/HAVO/VWO) which then track into 3 categories of further education (MBO being the practical, HBO being a mix of practical and scientific and University being the purely scientific category). There is a lot of pressure on kids to perform in primary school to be tracked into what are considered the "higher" categories (HBO/University) and changing from one category to another is very difficult until you've finished the first. So, say you were tracked into MBO, you first have to finish that (3 years, used to be 4) before you can go to HBO (and even then there are often extra requirements you need to meet like a certain grade point average or an extra admission test) and then you have to do that for 4 years before you can go to university (and here there are often again these extra requirements). This takes a lot of persistence, perseverance and stamina. To me, this sounds unhealthy. Children need time to be children, they need to focus on social connections and developing not in the area of getting good grades but at being human and having fun. The Dutch system is not an easy system and one that has a lot of rigor. Although it is possible to make your way through, your teachers will tell you you’re never going to make it all the way until you’ve actually reached it (I know, I’ve lived through it).
True but you can also take a different route, when I went to school I ended up MAVO but then did MEAO / HEAO / Uni. Could also do HAVO / HEAO / Uni. But I guess those school names are probably outdated by now as I'm almost 50 years old ;D
primary schools (and in larger schools teachers of different groups between them) do tend to compete on how many of their children end up in VWO, at least it was that way when I was doing my CITO in 1981. The school I was in definitely pushed pupils to choose VWO, even if their CITO scores were marginal for it.
When I studied abroad in the US for a semester I really felt like I was regressing in maturity and independence. There was such a big stress on attendance, supervision, homework and teachers, and the classes were incredibly easy (I went from a 7 average to being a straight-A student while doing significantly less work). I think that studying in the US is incredible as a fun-filled adventure, but it wasn't much in terms of academics and it was ridiculously expensive!
Everyone has a different experience. Because some friends and I felt like the classes were easier in Europe than in the US. Actually that’s why we were able to travel a lot. As always it is different for everyone.
@@SC-mo7peI think that might be a function of the high school experience that students have. If you've gone to a rigorous college prep high school whether public or private and jumped through the testing hoops, by the time you get to university, depending on the setting, it might actually feel like a weight lifted off. 😁
My daughter in law, while studying in DBU, was also required to take a certain number of hours studying theology, which was not her interest at all and even sometimes conflicting, on content, with her main courses like biology.
My ex was American and did well in uni there, but was shocked at how much more difficult uni in the Netherlands was when she came here for her master's degree. Also foreigners are often disappointed by the grades they receive. Dutch profs are harsh when it comes to grading. Indeed, straight A students sometimes end up with a 7 average, and they go from top of the class to feeling mediocre.
Back when I went to university, in the 70s, we had a very broad "high school" education ("gymnasium" it was called), where you were taught modern languages (French, English and German), classical Greek and Latin, mathematics, physics, chemistry and biology, as well as history and geography, so maybe it was taken for granted that you had some basic knowledge in all these fields before applying for a university. The education system has changed since then, but I'm sure this is broadly still the same.
In Peru, this is usually covered in the first year of university (sometimes two years) as a "General Studies" program that is also partly focused towards the sciences or the humanities dependin on the program you choose when signing up. Some intro/fundamentals subjects are done in this period to help students confirm their final choice. This way, university is at least 5 years long (6 for law, psychology) and a wonderful cash cow for all the deregulated little "advisory" study centers that pop up around university buildings to help struggling students with the tough subjects (and also profit by preparing secondary school kids prepare for the admission tests - one per university, a massacre in public ones, though).
I think this is very true. I think, whether in the EU or the US, there was a relatively small period of time where students got much more of a sturdy foundational education, where even the garbage/rubbish pick up guys had a decent grasp of the basics that make civil society work. Not going to university was not a big deal because you still had a chance to gain solid skills in a reputable training program and then go to work with your hands or just not behind a desk. At least in the US which is my personal experience, that's all but collapsed. Both my kids are in so called college prep honors programs in high school and they still read half as much literature as I did (I'm only 53) in high school and writing is not taught at all. We pay out of pocket for tutors to bring them both up to the base line of the education I got back in the 80s. In the late 70s into the 80s and beyond, states began balancing the budgets on the backs of k-12 education cuts and state university systems. That meant k-12 kids were less prepared to move up and colleges began ratcheting up cost to in state students. Now, at some of the cheapest public colleges and universities it's close over $30k to attend the non-flagship schools. The unfortunate take away people have is that they don't need higher education. When k-12 is inadequate and higher education is financially out of reach without debt, the whole thing begins to resemble a house of cards. Democracy requires better than what America is offering our kids and young people.
Great video again, one note on the stress of getting of Uni. There is quite some pressure on kids at the age of 11, mainly from parents, to get in the highest level of high of highschool, i.e. VMBO, HAVO, VWO.
@@nomoresunforever3695 Its an important selection period but not a definte cut off. There are many ways you can get MBO and even HBO levels even if you start out at a vmbo level i would say University is practical impossible. Yes it is way more difficult. But your paths are not set in stone. Also allmost all level are valued depending what you wanna do in youre life. It depends more on what kind of subject you do then wich level. Ofcourse the higher the level the less important it becomes for a lot of jobs cause if you have a certain level its presumed that you can learn on the job even if you studied something completly differnt. And yes you do have a higher status if you attended a higher level but that doesn't really mean all that much in the Netherlands we aren't that class or status contiuos.
@Arturo Bianco yea that's true, MBO is what you do after the lowest level, but MBO is not university. It's trade school. Almost everyone can get some kind of higher education after high school, but it will be very difficult to achieve anything similar to American university.
@@nomoresunforever3695 I’ve actually met multiple people that moved up from MBO to University. Sure, it’s uncommon, but moving up to HBO is not, and from there it’s just a small step. Starting off at MBO it will just take you five years to be able to apply for a WO-bachelor.
The big moment here in the Netherlands is before you go to high school. You take an exam that will indicate at what level in high school you can study: VMBO, HAVO or VWO. These different levels take 4, 5 and 6 years in high school respectively and determine what level of higher education you can choose after high school: MBO, HBO (hoge school) or WO (university). The exam before high school is a very important part of the recommendation your school will give to the high school you want to go to. You can always choose to do a lower level than your recommendation but not higher. If you want to do a higher level, you need to be acing all your classes and hope you get transfered, or spend additional years in high school after you pass your final exams for your level. e.g. if you do VMBO it's 4 years, 2 years extra if you want to continue with HAVO, and another 2 years after that if you continue with VWO (and it gets harder the higher you get). With VMBO you can get an MBO degree, with HAVO an MBO or HBO degree and with VWO either MBO, HBO or university. If you complete a MBO study (4 years) it's the same as having a HAVO dimploma and you can do HBO. If you complete the first year of a HBO study (with all credits) you get a special diploma and can continue with university. As you can see there's a lot of benefit to getting in at a higher level in high school. VWO is best; you have all the options, HAVO is okay; you can still do pretty much everything without getting delayed too much. VMBO should be avoided; it really limits what you can do later in life and if you want more options, you need to spend 4-6 years extra in school THIS IS WHEN WE ARE 11-12 YEARS OLD
I've honestly been very lucky that my mom never cared much for academic prowess and just let me do what I wanted to do, but now looking back I can't imagine what people with parents opposite of mine go through to try and get to HBO or WO. Like even now that we have a crisis of too little MBO students, there's still this massive stigma around doing MBO and becoming anything other than a white collar office executive
Not everybody has the same learning ability so not everybody can go to VWO. The majority goes to the "to be avoided" VMBO. And that is no problem. You can still take the path to University, it just takes longer. Often parent put pressure on schools to give them a higher advice because they think their kids are better. Everybody needs to walk their own path.
High school entrance exams didn't exist when I went to Gymnasium (grammar school). And no, I did NOT come from wealthy circles, but from a classic working-class environment. Together with 4 classmates I went to the gymnasium on the recommendation of the superintendent of the Primary School. The man had seen it right: of those 4, 3 obtained an academic degree. This was around 1962. The superintendent was a social democrat of the old attitude: "instruct and learn to uplift".
If you say avoid vmbo you write off more than 60% of the population of The Netherlands. Yes we need some people with high education, but what’s shown the last couple of years we need more craftsman like, plumbers, electricians, builders, service technicians, nurses etc. The chance to be out of job is higher if have hbo or uni degree
Loved the video. About a gap year: I have the feeling that people from the more priviliged families (priviliged in terms of money, education of parents, ethnicity, urban or rural, etc) tend to take a gap year more often than the average student. It takes a bit of confidence to know that you can take it easy. I love the American system where you can experiment a bit when you are in college, I wish I had that during my 'studententijd'! And yes we also have sororities/fraternities, especially the 'corps' is infamous with a lot of hazing and alcohol abuse. They are often in the news when they did something awful again. They also tend to be more elitist and very traditional. But there are also other less traditional 'student societies' where people don't do hazing or the hazing is not dangerous/degrading.
And it's interesting that American fraternities/sororities have an obsession with Greek ("Pi Kappa Alpha" etc), while the Dutch 'corps' has an obsession with Latin ('Minerva', 'Vindicat', 'Ceres').
Aside from student organisation many inis in the Netherlands have study organisations, focussed on one study line. Those are a combination of representation of students with their faculty but also have a social content. There are hardly any excesses in those organisations.
Fun fact, the American system exists in The Netherlands as well. It's a bachelor called 'university college' and it works the same with following different classes and choosing your main later on. And the first year you live in University housing. However this system is more popular amongst students from other countries compared to Dutch students.
Yes! I was an international student who graduated from University College Roosevelt (part of Utrecht University) and it was one of the best times of my life! Plus housing there was guaranteed for the whole 3 years. Would highly recommend it!
The Netherlands is off course much smaller, so students often don't have to live near University. We live in Haarlem and my youngest daughter goes to Leiden University. She still lives at home and travels back and forth when she has to attend classes. Much cheaper, because public transport is free for students!
Wauw, what amazing story! You have it explained very exactly! Just one extra note on the Dutch students who are fastly taking an adult life: because it;s so difficult nowadays to get a student houses easily, many student are living instead much longer at there parents (also because the Netherlands is much smaller so you not have to move when you want to enter a university).
The Gymnasium, as the secondary school preparing for higher education, is called in many Continental European countries, is doing what you explained the first year of US college provides. You can study various subjects and the Gymnasium gives the students a much broader general knowledge than the US high school system does.
In Dutch it is called Voorbereidend Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs (VWO) and there are two types: atheneum without classical languages and gymnasium with classical languages. Gymnasium still has more prestige, but I did it for pleasure.
You say you don't mean 'Hogeschool or HBO' but this type of education translates into English as University of Applied Sciences. I have a hogeschool bachelor degree and was stunned that when I had my degree assessed in Australia, it came back as the equivalent of a university degree. Much to my surprise. It also gives me an idea of what the level of 'universities' in some other countries is. Not the same as in NL. The difference between hogeschool and university is that universities is that universities do a lot more research and the hogeschool is practical, more hands on. One of my mates did a similar degree to mine at university and for the first two years many books were the same. After that, I started do internships where my mate had research assignments. The only other country where the system is similar to NL is Germany. Hogeschool there is Fachhochschule.
Important detail: while we do choose our major when we start out, we also can follow X amount of classes in unrelated fields of study, the so called free courses. This in turn means that, when we switch to a different field, we can take some of the credit/points (how do you call that?) with us to that new major and fill up X with those classes from our previous major. There's some restrictions of course, but there's a bit of freedom here. Having finished an entire major automatically discharges you from having to do any free courses in a second major. Another thing to note is that finishing highschool in the Netherlands only gives you access to certain fields of study. Most sciences require you to follow all of mathematics in highschool for instance. Finishing the first year of any collegemajor gives you access to the first year of every other major, even when your highschool diploma didn't. Probably with some restrictions here and there, but generally that's how it works.
Not an expert as I never studied in college but the most common item about universities in the Netherlands in the media is the fact that it's impossible to find housing. And I don't see that being solved in the near future.
Wait, in The Netherlands you are not “done” after completing your BA. You are expected to do a Master’s degree afterwards. Depending of the degree, a Master’s will take another one or two years. When I went to university, there was no BA degree. The BA has been introduced to link the Hogeschool BA degree to the University degree, so Hogeschool graduates can do a Master’s degree too (typically after completing an additional ‘linking program’). Only after graduating for your Master’s, you are “done” with university.
And the BaMa structure was also chosen to resemble other countries. In order to make the transfer of degrees to other countries easier. Other countries, as I was told, typically looked down on our doctorandus-degree, whereas it used to be a bigger achievement than obtaining a master. I was one of the last to receive a doctorandus-degree at the UvA (and proud of it); I did not plan on a career abroad but could have chosen a Masters title instead.
@@esiebring7436 the sad thing is: it was mostly english-speaking countries. No problem with all the other european languages. You guessed it probably: I have the old degrees (my university days ended in 1976).
You get a Masters in 5 years?! Lol, might give my Uni a call here in Argentina because most careers take 4 or 5 years to get a Licenciatura or University degree to then get a Masters or PhD (another one or two years). Although higher university degrees are very rare still, many people my generation are "first generation university students" and start applying for jobs after their BA or earlier.
@@esiebring7436 I have a 'doctorandus' degree from both the VU and the UvA. Both universities at the time also provided me with an English language 'bul' that used masters titles. The funniest thing is that due to unterpretation differences one is a Master of Arts degree and the other a Master of Science. So with the whole country switching to the anglosaxon titles I went from a singlemtitle in front of my name to a double title (Ma and Msc) after my name. Americans have often asked me how deep into debt I am and are shocked when they hear I did both without incurring any debt. (I never took the studie beurs loan part and I paid for it by working part time while in college.
I was 15 when I finished high school here in the Netherlands, and 18 when I finished nursing school. Been working fulltime as a nurse since then. Also I didn't have to pay tuition bc I was underage (not 18 till the end of the last schoolyear)
I was an American student in Belgium 30 years ago. At that time there were many Dutch students in Belgium, because Belgium didn't have any required qualifications to study anything. The Netherlands did and poor school students ended up at the bottom of the waiting list in the Netherlands. Belgium allowed everybody to try anything, first come, first accepted. It wasn't cost effective and now for serious degrees, Belgium now requires students to qualify first. Belgium had me get a Belgian student visa in the US. The Netherlands allowed Americans to get student visas after they arrived in the Netherlands.I almost studied in the Netherlands, but I had a free place to stay on a farm in Belgium and I could choose anything to study. The Belgian students went home every weekend, not even attending Friday classes, so us foreign students had the whole place to ourselves on the weekends and holidays. I was in Belgium for 4 years. One year of Dutch lessons and three years of university studies.
The topics you describe that you get in university usually are topics we get in high school. Mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, and a few languages are basic classes we get in high school.
as a non-EU and non-US national, tuition fees are what made me choose the Netherlands for my MSc over the US. year 1 has been tough, but I know I'm getting high quality education so it feels like a double win when I get good grades (anything above 7)
Here in the US, I feel like the pandemic really shook up the expectation of finishing your bachelor's in 4 years. A lot of people went part time or took time off and we started holding higher regard for mental health (although we're a long, long way from actualizing this). Personally, I struggled academically earlier in my undergrad due to untreated ADHD which held me back, then I went part time during Covid, then I took a year off to transition and work out my various mental health issues, so I'll be 25 when I graduate next year, but I'll be a competent person with good character and considerable academic achievements from a well renowned program in my field, rather than the absolute trainwreck that I would've been had I pushed to the finish line at 22 with the "Cs get degrees" mantra. It seems that 5-10 years ago, a 25 year old undergrad would've been viewed as a straggler, but these days, people have higher regard for someone who took the time to sort out their issues and was purposeful in their education, rather than someone who cut corners to rush through to the next life milestone.
Great vide, taking a break is a great idea and I wish I had done it after finishing my VWO as it would have helped me figure out what I really like/want to do in my professional life.
Just a small correction, bachelor degrees in the Netherlands takes normally 4 years (not 3). Impressive to see how much you have indulged yourself with tons of information about the Dutch education system. Very informative video. Thank you.
In the US I did not like to have to repeat certain General Education courses I already passed in high school. I could have used that time for a part time job, joining a school sport, add a minor or second major, or take a course in art or music.
There is a major difference between universities and their cities in the Netherlands. Amsterdam and Utrecht are infamous for their housing problems, but Tilburg, Enschede and Delft generally have enough student housing. Hospiteren is the norm everywhere, but bringing drinks/gifts is definitely not common everywhere. Another major difference between cities is what living together looks like: in some cities, the norm is to eat together with your housemates every day, while here in Utrecht it's very uncommon and seen as a full evening activity.
Enschede here, in my days '95-2000 we were with 4 in a house and we usually made it so that all 4 would cook once each week, that's 4 days covered and the other 3 weekend days were some free for all system, with people being elsewhere or eating outdoors (or eating together if that was convenient
We do have 1 Campus university in the Netherlands.. the technical University Twente in Enschede. I studied there and it was a great time , really had most of the facilities you would expect at an US campus
@@guuslombarts9004 when I was studying, that was called a 'business school' not an university. I guess they upgraded themselves , did they expand or is it just a name change?
Very interesting video. As a Dutch person, good to hear an outside perspective. Two points: I have to say the US-model of being able to explore various subjects before choosing a direction as to what field you want to get your degree in does sound more appealing to me also, because I feel it plays more into inspiring intellectual curiosity which is after all what university is about. Regarding the housing, it definitely wasn't as difficult when I went to university. I just rented a house with two other people from uni and thats it (no special student interviews, or such). But I think students now have a harder time of it and may have to jump through more hoops because there is a housing crisis in general in the Netherlands. Thanks for the insights!
This video is very timely for me. I’ve just been accepted into a Master’s program in the Netherlands. It’s crazy to me that I can move to a new country and pay $20,000 per year tuition and still have a cheaper degree than by staying local here in the US. It’s a lot to consider but youtubers like you Ava have been very enlightening for me while I make this big decision. Thanks for your content!
That's crazy! Please do take into account that finding a place to live is VERY hard, especially as a foreign student. Universities DO NOT provide housing for their students, that's really something you have to take care of yourself. Every year there're foreign students ending up being more or less homeless, having to sleep in a tent or couch surfing. It's best to start your search as early as possible!
@@picobello99 Thanks for the tip! That part makes me very anxious. Luckily my sister-in-law is currently studying in Delft and has a large house. Although not an ideal commute to Utrecht but it would prevent me from being homeless! I’ll be bringing my husband and once he’s able to secure a job hopefully we’ll have more housing options than the average student. Do you know if finding housing gets easier further from the city center? I’m quite used to a 30-60 minute commute here in the US so it wouldn’t bother me to live further away and travel often.
Yes, you got that right about attitudes towards a gap year. I took a gap year. Working at a full-time job and encountering all the challenges of working at a demanding job, was an education in itself. I went back to college ready to assume the course load. Working also helped me be a better student in terms of discipline. Many people outside of my family, though, thought I was messing up my life.
I think it's healthy that one, no matter what one decides to do, one tries to do an 8hours/day for 5 days/week. The 8 hours can be spend earning money, studying, practicing a skill, whatever. Just 40hours/week of self improvement. Obviously not 52 weeks/year.
The issue with the competition is that's about showing how smart you are, what you are able to learn therefore, not about actually learning. I'm a fan of the 6-mentality, just make the bar that is set and then you're fine. Excelling is optional.
Ironically, being at a fancy Ivy league now but having done my bachelor/MS in the Netherlands, the education here is actually a lot lower quality than what I received in the Netherlands. But you get an A for just existing here anyway :') But pretty sure that most students I teach here would not pass in the Netherlands. So its not even quality education, they just pay for a PR-hyped brand of a University.
@@DenUitvreter yup. But ironically a lot of these student, who absolutely buy into the narrative of being the best, will then occupy positions in this society where they actually dont have the skills/knowledge for :( (def not gonna stay after I get my piece of paper, which is also something they dont understand)
@@psygeek961 That's the system there from a young age, showing off you are smarter than the others instead of doing something with that smartness like learning a lot. That's a really very fundamental difference that is much bigger than just education. In continental Europe we invest in everyone, try to make them the best versions of what they could be. In school but also at work. In the Anglo Saxon culture concerning human resources it's not supply driven but demand driven: The universities and employers watch everybody struggle and select the ones that come out on top.
Important note on the Dutch research university degrees: Just getting a bachelor's degree from one of these universities is often considered an "incomplete" education without the matching masters' degree. This is why only the master's students get the old title of "doctorandus", whilst the bachelor's students get nothing besides their bachelors' of arts/science. There are bachelors' degrees that confer old titles, but they're usually from the HBO's (universities of applied science, they do professional education and are often considered to be the "community college" equivalent, whereas the research universities actually focus on research and can be considered similar in status to ivy league or Russel group.) So overal someone who has "graduated" university is 1-2 years older than mentioned. Not to mention a lot of students simply need an extra year to complete their studies. These degrees can be difficult to obtain after all.
This. My American stepmom just couldn't understand why I was so worried about getting my Master's after a research uni bachelor's. In the end I ended up fine without my Master's (chronic illness prevented me from getting it), but mostly because I was really good at statistics and learned a bit of programming.
This. I started on my degree shortly after the shift to Bachelor/Master and was basically told by the older students that the six years course load for a doctorandus degree had just been split into a three years for a Bachelor and "two" years for a Master degree.
Je kunt alleen ing. krijgen met een bachelor (voorheen kandidaats) en dan moet je een technische opleiding doen. Mr. Ir. en Drs. kun je krijgen met een master in respectievelijk rechten, techniek en de rest.
I'm so lucky with our, Dutch, system. My eldest daughter went without any problems from highschool, gymnasium, to the Erasmus University in Rotterdam where we live.Now she is in her 5th and final postmaster year. My younger daughter studies art at the St. Joost college in Breda. Thanks to the Dutch education system, were my costs for there education reduced to keep them loved, fed, and free living at home with me. The costs for their education are for 85% payed by themselves through afterschool jobs and I provide for their food and rooms here, do their laundry, their cooking, etc. Knowing my daughters, btw I'm a widdower, single parent for 12 years, are most gratefull for that, I'll also thank the Dutch system.
Another big problem when it comes to housing, besides not being able to find any, is that many student houses are owned by slumlords. Many students have great stress dealing with them.
I think you need to follow up this. You did not make a clear enough distinction in applied sciences and sciences. Those are different universities, in different cities sometimes and they lead to different grades. Applied Science universities lead to Bachelor and Universities lead to a quicker Bachelor nearly always followed by a few years to get your Master). You can only become a PHD if you have done science universities. Furthermore the word "science" does not only apply to physics, chemistry, etc. But in the Netherlands it also applies to anything you can study at a university (language, law, political science, etc). This has linguistical origins. The Dutch word "wetenschap" is litteraly "knowmanship". So there is no distinction in what you actually studied to know. But, there is a difference. You have two sorts of masters degrees. One is MA (Master of Arts, for languages, history, geography, archeology, sociology and whatnot) and MSc (Master of Science) for things like Engineering, Chemistry, Physics etc. The only exception I know of is Political Science that leads to an MSc title despite being a social science. Furthermore there is in NL more emphasis on group work, and from what I hear, Americans generally find the level here very high (tough). Lastly, the unfamiliar grading system does not make it easier. This goes from 1 (extremely bad) to 9 or 10 (depending on your professor) which is "excellent". You pass with 6, sometimes 5.5 and get your credits. "A level" is generally comparable to merely a "7" (more than adequate) here. Another difference in culture may be that nobody in the Netherlands is interested in your grades unless you go for PHD application. People outside the academic world only look if you have the appropriate certificate. And oh, sports is something you do in your free time. It has zero influence on your higher education in the Netherlands (no grades or credits for it). Universities here are purely intellectual. On the plus side, many courses can be taken in English, although politicians want to limit this for outside EU students because too many students come here and there is no housing for domestic and foreign students alike. This is a huge problem.
You should seriously consider to keep your statements a bit shorter. Couple of subjects or so. Unclear what the point is and people don't react. Why bother.
The other distinction is that the application system has defacto already been completed by obtaining a VWO diploma. All prospect students for universities have been vetted prior to applying. The vwo students should be able to complete university. American colleges range from mbo to VWO in level and therefore a selection is carried out after high school. High schools also vary greatly in quality whereas each Dutch schools follow the same curriculum and the students are therefore comparable. No need to to an additional time-consuming assessment.
Ava, thanks for the informative content about the US university system vs. the Dutch system. I guess there wasn't much you've missed. BTW most Universities in the Netherlands have a Studium Generale system set up to spread broader knowledge.
Interesting viewpoints! To add some perspective: the stress about getting selected for college takes place at age 12 in the Netherlands. Tests equivalent to SAT determine the type/cognitive level of highschool. Only the highest level will open doors for university later on. Disadvantage: career-stress at a very young age. Advantage: high level highschool enables universities to start at a higher level. Holland invests heavily in education for economic reasons. Knowledge is part of the Dutch capital. So there is not as much time for students to take extra classes to find out who they are and what they want. So there is enormous pressure on Dutch youngsters, just in different times and ways.
Another X-Pat from the US here. When I graduated HS in 1968, tuition at the California University system was $49 a semester. One could afford housing & school costs with a part time job at McDonalds! Greedy politics and Cyclic economic crisis contributed to our high costs. I appreciated the general education requirements and the flexibility that comes with not being part of a cohort. I never lived on campus. That said, I have the impression that academics are a bit more rigorous here in the Netherlands. And I love the lack of emphasis on status of the school, low costs, and general benefits granted to students (free transportation, monetary support, free admission to some museums etc.).
"Hospiteren" in my experience (I studied in Leiden some 25 years ago - the situation may be different in other university cities or even nowadays in Leiden) was mainly a thing for frat houses. Here in Leiden we had the Stichting Leidse Studentenhuisvesting (Leiden Student Housing Society) where you could put your name down and they would, in time, assign student housing to you. There were quite a few apartment buildings for students all over the city, owned by the SLS, for this very purpose. You'd typically have a single room with shared kitchen and bathroom facilities and sometimes a communal living room, which you would share with about 4 to 10 other students, your "huisgenoten" (house mates) or "ganggenoten" (corridor mates). As to "hospiteren", in my opinion, and the opinion of lots of fellow students of mine, the system was quite toxic. Designed so that prospective house mates will suck up to the people already living there in all kinds of ways to make a good first impression. In fact, a friend of mine for this reason founded a "hospiteerdispuut" (a "dispuut" in this context being a club within a larger student society) where they would go to a hospiteeravond with the express purpose of derailing the hospiteer-process. They would typically pretend they did not know each other and start asking all kinds of awkward` questions and making disparaging remarks about the building and its denizens. When I was a student, most students would cook for themselves or their "gang" (corridor). And it could be a mess here as well: I remember one huisgenoot of mine who wanted to cook cauliflower and just dumped the entire thing, leaves and all, in a pan to fry it, and when things did not work out, had to call his mom for advice. As to Dutch frat culture: Some 25 years ago (and still available on RUclips) there used to be a Dutch comedy show on TV called Jiskefet (which apparently means "dustbin" in Frisian) where they had a series of sketches called "de lullo's" (which roughly translates to "the frat boys") where Dutch frat culture was made fun of. Highly recommended if you want to know about Dutch frat culture, but be warned, it can be quite crude and misogynistic. The latter used to be (and still is, if I am any judge), unfortunately, quite prevalent in frat culture. Even the affected, almost comically exaggerated high class Dutch accent is very typical of Dutch frat culture, and I would imagine that as a linguist, you would be interested in learning about that.
Hospiteeravonden happen in non-fraternity houses too. Private landlords will often let the current tenants look for a new tenant. Sometimes they choose a friend or aquaintance and sometimes they organise a hospiteeravond.
I was super surprised to hear about this side of hospiteren. For me (at UTwente, 2008) it was just a way to talk to prospective flatmates and figure out which house is the best fit for everyone. UTwente does have a campus though, and people that can't find a home through hospiteren were assigned to houses that didn't pick anyone.
I'm sorry, Eva, but you there are some mistakes in your video about our educational system. The BA is done after 3 years, but that is not getting you anywhere. You need another 2 years to get your master's degree. So in total, the duration of your university education, your master's degree, is 5 years. Then, getting a Ph.D. will take another 4 years. So your degree equals 9 years of study here. The BA of Applied University (Hogeschool) takes 4 years. Also, the level of education is very different. Whereas the top colleges in the USA are the very best in the world, most of them (the local ones) would not qualify as colleges in the Netherlands. They would qualify as MBO-4.
And US highschool equals HAVO. So the undecided years in between can be considered to be the last two years of VWO. The final year when you decide in which you want to graduate can be compared to propedeuse for HBO or University. Nobody can finish University in the Netherlands when only nineteen or twenty years old.
@@dutchman7623 I had family that barely finished MAVO go to the US for a year of high school and then a BA, he graduated both as a straight A student. I would not call high school a HAVO equivalent.
About student housing, I live in Leiden with a University famous for having started without *any* building to its name and still being about 250 years behind with housing students. The effect of this is called "verkamering" where property owners can make way more money with renting space to students than with any other use. These rooms are extremely expensive, badly regulated and often dangerous fire traps. This jacks up rent and property prices enormously (AirBnB etc.. does not help here) making it almost impossible for locals to find living space.
@8:20 In the Netherlands there are bachelor degrees on “Liberal Arts and Sciences”, which are more general programs that allow one to choose a focus area in the 2nd or 3rd year. Then you do a master for specialization on a specific area.
I'm not sure the system still exists, but back when I did Uni in NL, not only were the annual fees affordable, studying was also generously supported by government allowances - basically, means-tested against your parents' income. And if you didn't qualify for these, and couldn't/didn't want a side job, you could get affordable loans (sub-market rates).
There are actually several small Liberal Arts & Sciences colleges in the Netherlands as well, that do things the American way (i.e. taking courses in several fields and only declaring your major in your second year, they even use the American grading system). I attended one and it really suited me! At my specific uni this also included mandatory living on university campus, which means you're guaranteed an affordable room, quite a blessing in the current housing crisis. Unlike American campus however, you did have to cook, and it was located in the middle of the city, rather than its own community, and we could also stay in our housing during the breaks. I have also lived on a 'proper' large campus whilst studying abroad in Ireland, where everything is as you described for the US, with its own supermarket, coffeeshops, cinema etc.
I think the MOST odd thing, as a Dutch person (who did a BS/MS in the Netherlands) now doing a PhD in the US is how 'great' the Ivy undergrads think their education is, when its actually VERY subpar compared to the education I received. And the ego boost they get from attending this famous university. But its really ALL PR for most part. You just PAY for the name value, thats all. (oh and pay over a 1000 USD annually for 'campus life' fees on top of tuition, so you can do a silent disco once a year on the center of campus... great value....) Plus, that we have to give them an A for existing (their work wouldn't pass in the Netherlands), because the fancy university is afraid that if we don't give them the 'perfect' college experience the rich parents don't donate. AND how weird it is that the 'work-study' students (aka the poorer students) get assigned jobs where they have to work in the campus call center to call the rich parents for money... GROSS.
@@SC-mo7pe as a naive european i couldnt even imagine what a shitshow it is. Ive studied and lived in Asia too, so I figured there was some international standard, but nop. but location is good, salary is decent and a better starting point for future negotiations, university name value + academically its set up very different (i.e. rather than working on a grant, you often have more freedom; networking; duration; etc.). But I do regret it.
@@dudtspeed Literally true for the Ivy league I'm currently at as a PhD? So not sure what is incorrect about it? Growing their endowment seems to be their primary priority, together with using Covid as an excuse to cut every possible thing but massively invest in real estate at the same time.
@@psygeek961 yeah the primary motivation to go to college to see it as a company. Great start with your texbooks thinking you're joining a corporation.
@@dudtspeed I dont think he means it from the students perspective. But to universities themselves and how they run themselves, especially private universities, is really more a corporate entity with education on the side (which gives them actual tax breaks). Like why does Columbia's uni president Bollinger need to make 4million dollars a year? Or why the uni paid for the 23 million dollars renovation of his house? While a large portion of the teaching staffs are adjuncts on salaries that are extremely difficult to survive on, classrooms are full of broken equipment that is from the last century (including furniture), and so on
Thank you for your insights, gave me some perspective I never knew I needed. Personally I can relate to the pressure/stress factor of having to pick your university at 18/19 years of age. I had an idea but really… i wasn’t ready to carve my path in stone there and then. It has led to me just not performing at my best because student life, living on my own, discovering everything outside of my parent’s home was overwhelming and great (partying). I truly believe that (in my case) I was asked too early in my life to make this decision.
Dutch highschool has multiple levels and only the two highest levels will normally grant access to a a university education. High school at these levels are at least at the same level as a jr college AA degree or even higher. A VWO student also learns latin and greek as well as several other languages. The level they are at upon graduation is well beyond even the most advanced American highschool students. This, together with the lack of unnecessary courses padding the curriculum, make the length of time necessary for a bachelors diploma that made shorter.
As someone who picked something i didn't end up enjoying the school system in the Netherlands was always more of an annoyance to me. The system where you can take a bunch of classes seems exactly what I needed at that time in my life. I didn't end up finishing my bachelor till i was 26
What you forgot to add to your story is that from September 2023 students will again receive a scholarship of 400 euros per month and free public transport.
Going to “high school” as you described it is only if you are in the track to go to university, as opposed to a vocational track. What Americans tend to do after high school, university, community college, trade school, etc. is done about 3-4 yrs. earlier and in “high school” you are either in a track to go to university or you are not. In general, this is true in most EU countries.
Very nice video again. What surprised me most is that, apparently, US student life with campus and dorms and such, are pretty much the same "as seen on TV". Maybe this is one of the few subjects where TV-reality matches the real reality. On that matter: I would be interested to see how life on TV shows are matching reality, so a future video? Like: are school proms really a (big) thing, are people dating only colleagues from work. BTW, I agree that it is a benefit if you could explore all kinds of academic fields before choosing a major. When I was a student, there were plenty of other students who didn't actually know why they were there. They just wanted to go to uni, for whatever reason, so they just picked something. Most kids however, choose a study because they know what they want to become, what career they want to pursue, and choosing the study is a part of the path to that career. And from that perspective, it's more effective to follow a curriculum that is focused on that field from the beginning.
When you switch your degree here you can often carry over the credits you got from the classes you took. Usually there's an elective portion of classes in your degree where you can do whatever you want, so even if you transfer to a really different major you can use the credits there. I switched from psychology to computer science so I filled my free slots with the psych classes I got the best grades for and I also got an exemption for a basic research skills class because I had already done a bunch of that in psych. When I did psychology I also did some fun electives like a art history class
I think in the US not deciding on your major in your sophomore is more common than students choosing electives in the Netherlands (my only sources are my gut feelings and the internet though).
@@dodec8449 You are forced to choose electives in the Netherlands, there is X (this differs) amount of credits per degree which you have to pick for yourself, on top of specialty tracks within degrees (also varies per degree, mine didn't have specialty tracks, but most others at my university had).
"Just pass your classes and go to university". That is far from the entire truth here in the Netherlands. The way we make great higher level education affordable is basically by picking early to whom we make it accessible. Kids are sorted into different difficulties of high school at a fairly young age. Based on their results in school and their scores in nation-wide tests (that are pretty much IQ tests). Believe it or not the testing for this sorting starts in elementary school. If you are sorted into the higher levels of high school it gives direct access to universities (some additional criteria can apply such as the classes that you have taken). But for kids who do not fall into that category it is a different story entirely. I was brought up in the Dutch system and benefited from it by always having access to the best education possible without it being expensive. But there is a downside to separating kids at an early age based on measured academic potential. In a way it is a much tougher system than the one in the U.S. and far from the inclusive utopia the video portrays it as. We simply subsidize the academically gifted. Simple and plain. No amount of extra-curricular activity, athletic success or time spent in debate clubs matter in the Dutch system.
My start at secondary school was not a lucky one. Later I discovered that I could learn and at the adge of 28 I did an entrance exame to university. Everyone in the Netherlands can do that. You just have to be over 21, but you have to prepare youself. I studied Laws at an ordenary university part time, followed the adviced progame of 7 years and worked 30 years as a lawyer.
with housing, there are various types of student housing. Typically student housing where a bunch of students live together in an otherwise "normal" house tend to be the ones that have "hospiteeravonden", but there's more individual housing either from a private landlord or from a student housing orginisation. With the latter, you sign up on an online platform and apply online for houses/rooms you'd like to live in (they're up for a short amount of time, but there's a limit to how many you can apply per day, so you're applying to some every day), and usually based on various factors that modify priority, if you're the person with the highest priority who applied to that, you get it offered and you can accept or decline it (if you decline, it gets offered to next hoghest priority person who applied for it). You tend to either have a kitchen in your own (studio)apartment, or (more likely) have a shared kitchen with a bunch of people in a house or student housing hallway, so you can cook yourself. Universities do tend to offer affordable meals as well, and some student associations also offer affordable meals, either specific to their members, or to all students who want it (the latter used to be more common when univesrities still subsidised it, nowadays they don't and it's often association members only)
As for campus life it is a thing but it is more spread out. You might join a student (sport) organization which is not fully affiliated with the university (there is no college football/basketball) but still uses (sports) facilities paid for by the university and has board members on a university scholarship.
If you want to study in The Netherlands anything related to health, then you have to get through the selection procedure. This involves the exact same things as in the US: extra tests, extracurricular activities, best high school grades. I suppose that one difference is that in The Netherlands you can apply for two studies at a university at most (e.g. psychology and medicine at university 1 counts as 2 attempts, or medicine at university 1 and 2 counts as 2 attempts). If you're not selected for either, then bad luck, you won't study in the field of health. And as universities don't offer the possibilities to follow courses in any subject that interest you, there is no way around this selection. If you're not selected then you're out. This is also a reason why some students are forced to take a gap year to try again the next year.
That's due to there being more students applying than they can place students in the practical experience tracts though. Universities are limited by the number of placements available in hospitals etc.
I know several people that studied medicine and the system has changed a couple of times. I know most just had straight up lotteries; grades didn't even matter. There also seems to have been a period where there was an initial selection on grades, followed by a lottery if there were still to many applicants. None of them had to do/show proof of extra curricular activities or do extra work to get in. One had to take summer course to catch up because she had a knowledge deficit from not choosing a subject at VWO. Simply put she didn't meet the requirements. Once she did, she entered the lottery like everyone else.
@@weerwolfproductions That's messed up. Let's see how long this lasts before it's killed by claims it disadvantages students from lower social classes and/or minorities.
Don't you reckon it's time to change your opening from ,,..an American living in the Netherlands'' to ,,..an Utrechter born and raised in America''? Can't get around your love for our Stadsie 😊 She suits you. Love your videos! Keep 'em coming!
After my 'senior year' of 'high school', I was drafted for military service. After my service, I went to work. Going to university isn't really a thing for a lot of people. Over here (NL), going to university mostly depends on the career you choose.
Yeah, the US college entrance process is very toxic, as you say, and these days it's more and more common for US kids to start worrying about college and putting together a resume as early as late elementary school, something I saw when I worked at a US university in recent years. Like so many things in the US, it didn't used to be so stressful, competitive, and careerist, but that was back when college was more affordable and there was more equality in US society, as well as a broader range of career options that people could support themselves on. Now, there is only a relatively narrow range of careers that a person can support themselves on and those areas are extremely competitive. And the European gap year thing illustrates another area where US careerism and US society are extremely harsh and irrational. Over the past thirty years in the US, it has become necessary to always be working on your career. If you have a period of time on your resume where you took a year off to travel or study or just relax instead of working on your career, that is considered suspect and largely unacceptable to US employers, unless you can say that you were spending that year working on job skills in some way. It's the same with US university admissions offices now, too. If you took a gap year, you'd better be able to explain to admission officers that you were spending that year taking courses or studying to further your academic career or your professional career. If you can't explain it in that way, your application will likely be rejected. It's a really sick society.
I know you did not talk about de HBO schools but some do have a campus with dorms. My daughter lived at one with around 400 students living there. With a great campus life 😁 and "studenten verenigingen" (mixed fraternity/sorority).
America also has a lot of community colleges which serve many of the same functions and students as European technical schools. And they cost much less than full colleges and universities.
I understand the credits of community college can translate to two years of uni. So a huge cost saving , also community colleges are more widespread than unis
Me being 18 doing nothing with my life for the next 3 years until I finaly felt like I wanted to go back to school and here I am 30 and a teachers assistent now thinking about going back to school again to become a teacher.
The journey starting at age 11 to get to VWO and finishing VWO passing the exam as well as the high first year uni drop out level is the selection process. Different but not absent
Despite the fact that I think taking a gap year is a great idea, i have not encouraged my senior to do so because I'm fairly sure she might not go back into school. There are so many structural issues in America, mostly around money and healthcare that as a family we actually kinda of need her to go right after high school (I've got a senior and a sophomore). As expensive as it is to live on campus, living off campus can be a massive expense if a car is needed (we all know public transport is abysmal in the US) and because the cost of a 1 bdrm is close to $1700/mo in many places (our local community doesn't really have studio apartments unfortunately). The other thing is that my kids are currently supported under our health insurance until 24 and after that they're on their own. I tried to get my oldest to apply for university in Utretch and Leiden, but she dug her heels in and doesn't want to. 🥺
You don't need to get your own appartment when going to MBO, HBO or Uni. You can just keep on living with your parents until you are done studying and have a job.
While dorms / studentenhuizen are nice they are also expensive. Many people for that reason stay at home and just travel to uni. In the netherlands you can reach most universities within an hour of travel with good public transport. Off course this doesnt work for all subject but many subject can be reached within the hour. for example where I live. Nijmegen (Radboud University(including Medical), TU/e, Tilburg University, Utrecht University are all reachable with Public transport in an hour or less. slightly more than an hour is Erasmus, Vu and UoA. Only if you live in the northeastern provinces you are kinda screwed with only the RUG as a serious option and Twente for technical studies, this is where you see a lot more student housing issues. So while student housing options are an issue in the netherlands, the alternative (travel from home) is both cheaper and very viable and doesnt leave you with a lot of lending debts (to pay for that housing) at the end of your studies. Living on yourself is expensive it dwarfs the colleage tuition by many times. it's easily €1000+ a month.
Fascinating. Of course, another major difference, is the prevalence of Athletics Departments on US campuses, that tend to to dominate student culture. And, along with Athletics, the alumni who turn out for sporting events, and contribute to fundraising. My guess is that in the Netherlands, students play sports more within the community, than through their schools, per se.
Hallo Ava, I studied in university under the old system in NL in the eighties. I recognize some aspects of the US system like study duration of 5 year or more, the possibility to choose optional/additional subjects, 1000 euro tuition fee per year and the large eating facilities. These seem to have disappeared in the new system..
Hogeschool which not a univericy in the netherlands, international its a univerxcity degree and not a college degree. its a univercity of applied science international
The gap year only became an option, for men, when the draft was suspended (not abolished) by the government. Before then, when you graduated from secondary school, you could obtain a deferment from military service if you went to university. Otherwise you went straight into the military for anything between 18 to 30 months, depending on which branch you went into and what you did there. For women it was different. They could do whatever they wanted. Potentially, that difference has now been eradicated, because women are now subject to the draft as well. That is: everyone, male or female, becomes subject to the draft upon their 18th birthday (you get a letter from the Defence Secretary informing you of this a few days after your 18th birthday) but what is officially called “initial training” has been suspended. However, it only takes a stroke of the Defence Secretary’s pen to reinstate initial training and what with: - the Ukraine war and - the dire shortage of personnel in all 3 branches of the military reinstatement is no longer totally inconceivable.
Let's not forget that in the past going to university used to be very special in The Netherlands, while nowadays almost everyone seems to go to university. Moreover, your student's years used to last much longer than now (4 or, exceptionally, 5 years to obtain your master's degree). My conclusion is that the university in The Netherlands doesn't teach you much about science. You have to get your PHD (doctor's degree) to find out more about what science really is. The difference between university and hogeschool is becoming smaller and smaller every year.
Just want to add that if you only do your 3 year bachelor you still don't have much of a degree and to finish university you need to do you masters which can vary from 1 to 3 years on top of the 3 years bachelor
When you said college was not a Hogeschool, did you realise hogescholen are still universities of applied science? They give bachelors and master degrees too.
Hogescholen zijn niet toegelaten om masters opleidingen te geven. Wel postgraduaat opleidingen. Ik heb het dan wel over België, misschien dat het anders is in NL.
@@maskedgamer7565 In NL is het sinds kort mogelijk voor HBO's om de "master of science/arts" titel uit te mogen geven mits hiervoor geacrediteerd. Mogen daar dan wel niet de drs./ir. titel bij verstrekken. Het onderscheid tussen de hogescholen en universiteiten wordt hier in mijn optiek ook steeds kleiner. Zijn nu zelfs onderzoeksgerichte lectoraten ingericht. Waarbinnen HBO'ers zelfs mogen promoveren. Beetje rare gewaarwording is het wel.
@@TheNubis99 Interessant om te horen. In Bëlgie zijn ze er ook mee bezig maar zie het nut er niet echt van in. In ieder geval het enige verschil tussen universiteiten en hogescholen in BE is dat de ene meer theoretisch is en de andere praktischer en uiteraard de lengte van de opleiding verschilt. De ene 4 jaar de andere 3. Om werk te vinden wordt er niet echt naar gekeken tenzij het echte specifieke jobs zijn.
@Dutch Americano - how about a 'gap year'? I've heard about people going on a year's travel after college, is that uncommon? Or only for those of wealthy parents perhaps?
Watch some college football games on RUclips and compare to NL uni sports games if you can even find it on RUclips. Most students just continue high school type life living at home or in a room or shared apartment. Student life is limited to the few Studentenverenigingen only involving a small share of students.
In my day, admittedly in the last century, a hogeschool was simply a one faculty university It taught what you needed to know to enter a profession. As in Canada today a masters is of little-, and a doctorate of no use, except for teaching. So it perpetuates the idea that for teaching practical experience takes a back seat to level of education. Unfortunately the same goes for our Canadian community colleges
While there's nothing culturally against taking a gap year in the Netherlands, it's not at all common. You only get government support for studying up to a certain age, so you typically start as soon as possible. I don't think I know anyone who took a gap year. Maybe when you graduate, but not between schools typically. You can sort of experiment a bit with what direction you go, because you can switch education quite easily. But during a period you need to study the direction you chose, simply because the idea is you're learning for a certain group of professions so you need to focus on that. It's a bit old fashioned because we actually know people often don't end up in a job they studied for, but I understand the fear of having a bunch of half educated people in the workforce. We already have that with lower educations and it's a mess.
Agree with that a gap year is not that common. I also feel it's more a thing in priviliged families. About experimenting, a lot of people think when they are 18-19 they have to pick their entire career and are not allowed to change, while when you grow older you wished you experimented a bit more and all your worries didn't mean that much in the grand scheme of things. Yes, you can switch education, but I feel this is also a priviliged thing (although it's more common than gap years). People from poorer and/or practically educated families tend to think they have to stay on track and can't rock the boat, while sometimes switching was a better option.
The age requirement for government support for studying is that you have to be under 30 when you start. So that's not the issue. The issue is probably more that you need something else to live on during a gap year, and not all parents would be happy to jump in for that.
I also think it would be nice if you could spend a year sampling different fields, though I think we do that in high school in a way. And it would add another year to uni. The closest you get is doing your minor, which can be a different field.
Another big difference is the funding of the students, grants and scholarships. Another forgotten aspect is that american universities have the bachelor as a complete study. In the Netherlands, 95% finish the master as that completes the education. A further difference is that in the Netherlands, dus to being a small country, many students study from home, commuting daily. A last difference, Most americal uni's are more practical than dutch uni's, who are more academic.
1 remark to the point that you mention that in The Netherlands, (which is very important to mention) that you wish people in the Netherlands had more time to choose the main subject they study in University. In fact, from age 12, students are already put in schools according to their capability and capability, meaning, A-students go to Atheneum/Gymnasium, B-student to the HAVO and so on and are not put in the same class as in the USA. That is one very important (complete) difference in the Dutch education system. In the thirst 3 years you get an introduction to many subjects in which after class 3 you have to choose a direction so by the time you finish the middelbare school (middle school or high school) you basically already have chosen a direction before you enter University or go to the Hogere School. On a personal note, please don't mention hagelslag anymore (its an image that only lives among expats to justify their sugar intake in the morning, LOL) and please visit the town of 's-Hertogenbosch. Great videos btw, love to watch them because you are very observant.
I did HEAO in the Netherlands, only to find out, I totally sucked at Business Administration, and my American English (I went to North Carolina as exchange student for a year after graduating from HAVO, 5 year high school program) wasn't exactly up to snuff according to my English teacher who talked like he had a frog in his throat😝. I did okay with languages, but economics wasn't exactly what I really wanted. The high school didn't really flow well into the HEAO, would have been better if I had done VWO( highest level of high school 6 years, you can finish HAVO and start at 5th year in VWO). What you didn't mention is that in high school we have to choose what continuing education we want to follow as in 2 years before graduating, you choose which subjects you want to graduate with. Like in 3rd year HAVO I had to choose 6 subjects to graduate with, so you had to choose at fairly early age what you wanted to do as career. I flunked out. After I found out what I did want to do, I went to the States and graduated with a BSN, I enjoy learning so art and theater classes(intro to) and learning how to play tennis. I lived on campus for 2 years, after that off campus. You did forget to mention that in the States, especially State University, that many dorms close for holidays. I had to leave for Fall Break and Christmas break in the first dorm and had to switch dorms so I didn't have to move for spring break as well.
Ava, you are right.👌🤗 What also doesn't add up is the quality of the universes. 🧐There are multiple studies that have published quality differences of uni's in different country's.😳 Look it up...?🤓😎
There is another difference you didn’t mention, and that are the scholarships. In The Netherlands everyone is entitled to a scholarship granted by the state. The amount of money you get depends on the income of your parents. I don’t the specifics of it nowadays, but tuition fee used to be included in the scholarship. All students also get free travel in the weekend or the week.
Big differences are the 1. In the Netherlands we strive for a medium level of universities, so there is no struggle to get in the "best" university. Furthermore we are totally public, no private unis. Costs are much lower, fee is typically under $3. k. None of our unis have a campus system. Funding is open to all. A basic funding will be forgiven when one graduates within ten years. Furthermore, the typical US uni, is more like our Hogeschool, four years for a bachelor. In the US most students stop at their bachelor and look for a job. In the Netherlands most bachelors will not get you a job. So 95% of dutch students take a master. The majority of US students stop at the bachelor. Masters are mostly populated in the US by foreign students. Phd is almost totally populated by foreigners. This is even more so in technical studies. According to my son who did a PhD in a technical study and was also a teacher there. He found that US studies are a bit more hands on, while in the Netherlands it is more academic. All in all, I prefer the dutch system, even as it gave my son some good opportunities
If you would go to a technical university, the first speech you get is: "Look to your left, look to your right. One of them is gone in January, because drop out rate is 50% in the first semester." Also here are 5 years to go before completion (nominal, but failing exams will cause delays). I know this because I tried (Mechanical Engineering MSc)...and failed. Done a step down from University to HBO (BSc) and was extremely disappointed by the poor quality. Finished it and never valued that diploma one bit. Never worked as a mechanical engineer...
about the gap year end when you start your higher education, it's definitely not by default that 1st Bachelor students are 17-18yo. I'm saying this from a Belgian perspective, but I think you can extrapolate it to other European university. when I started my Hogeschool studies I was 21. I lost two years in highschool for medical reasons and did a 1 year SeNaSe. It: secundair na secundair, basically a one year education in the highschool itself to get you ready for the labour market if you chose not to go for higher education. The point is, eventhough I "wasted 3 years" in secondary school, I was by no means the oldest in my class. And since I was in a small art university, that class was 12 people, only a minority was 17 or 18 years old.
what you mention about the lack of options of taking other classes that are not related to your major in the Netherlands is actually incorrect. You are registered in a university for one year and because of your major, there are specific courses you have to take if you want to advance in your studies. Meanwhile, you can still register and attend all of the courses that you want within the university. So in principle, you could just attend any course you want in any faculty, as long as there is space available for you. Cheers!
About getting into university, you forgot to talk about the part where there are different levels of high-school. Only the highest level will give you access to university. Only 18% of kids complete this level of high-school. I think this explains the difference, at least partially.
Alternatively you can get into universities after you complete the first year of the hbo. If you do the havo + 1 year hbo you are even the same age as those who go straight from vwo
One difference you didn't mention regarding housing is that in American dorms you'd generally have roommates. You're actually sharing your bedroom with someone else (probably a complete stranger at first). In the Netherlands you might have housemates, having to share the bathroom and kitchen, but your bedroom is always private.
So true!!
Yeah I was shocked when I found out American students might pay higher rent to share a tiny room with a random stranger than I was paying to have my own room.
I'm an American doing my bachelor's degree in the Netherlands, and I've definitely come across these clashes of expectations/cultures related to university, both in coming here and when I talk to friends and family in the US. The difference I've found is the notion of campus life vs more 'adult' living (yes, I realise that as a student you are still very much not in the 'real world' and are often heavily supported by parents/guardians)-- I get the sense from talking to friends in the US that they associate their identity as more of a student at X university, whereas students in NL lean more to the side of being an adult who also attends university.
I always found the idea of campuses weird. Here in Argentina universities with campuses are rarities and absolutely none have dorms, instead most universities have faculty buildings spread through the city. Not only that does for an easier "commute" (I just walked to classes almost every day) it also carries the idea that high education is made to serve and shaped by society and culture. You just can't see that the same way while being stuck in an "ivory tower".
@@maximipeI think that the car centric nature of the USA makes campuses a necessity. Because transportation would otherwise be impossible.
@moi2833 Haha that was my reaction too. He is not wrong tho.
@@robinwolferink7315This is the sad truth about it. So many schools are located in rural or suburban areas that you need to drive and maintain a car to get to/from school, housing, retail, and work.
The pressure on Dutch kids is when they're 11 or 12, to get into the VWO/Gymnasium school level. If you don't get there, the route to university will take longer and require more determination. But that pressure typically comes from peers and parents, i.e. kids' closest social circles, not the schools. They will perhaps comment that a kid is talented and should try for something, but that is it.
That's only if you feel your life is over without university education. But 'scientific education' is nor has even been fitting for most of the studenst. Science is for the smartest, but in the USA college is a very expensive ticket to access the decent part of the labour market. Really, if university fits you, rather than just being to your advantage careerwise, you'll get into the VWO, no problem.
Then you get the lovely '6 is adequate' experience. The bar is set, high but not too high for your. You don't have to show off, you don't have to show that basically you are too smart for the level by getting high grades, you can struggle with puberty or temptations for a year without it being disastrous for your school career, just get over the bar with little margin to spare, and maybe later on you will find a subject to excell on. Or you do a lot of sports or play in a band, whatever, just make the bar and you're free to do anything you want.
The problem is mainly with children from a lower educated background who hit puberty at 12 and are judged on their bad year and lack of input from and around home. But they can take the long route. School can't fully compensate for background right away.
gymnasium ? Who needs gymnasium? Though the selection moment is young age, it is quite well possible to move from HAVO to VWO (or VMBO to HAVO) , or from HAVO via HBO (apllied science Uni) to Universitiy (research uni ).
I know someone who dropped from HAVO to VMBO and did ,age 16, 2 years (vocational tec) MTS and then 2-3 years HTS (bachelor diploma) continued with 14 months at a dutch dependance of a british Uni for a engineer Master ( global top 5 ranked in his discipline), aged 21-22 .
Imo the pressure in US to get a good scholarship is much higher than in NL ...
@@lws7394 As someone who did not really care about grades and cared more about social life when I was young (and tbh, I still do) and went from Primary School to VMBO to MBO, to HBO to ultimately graduating University, I can tell you that its quite difficult to make it from a situation where your grades are not that great in primary school to University.
The Dutch eduction system has its advantages but also its disadvantages where you are tracked into a more practical education or a more scientific education at a fairly young age. Namely: after your primary school you are tracked into one of 3 categories of high school (VMBO/HAVO/VWO) which then track into 3 categories of further education (MBO being the practical, HBO being a mix of practical and scientific and University being the purely scientific category).
There is a lot of pressure on kids to perform in primary school to be tracked into what are considered the "higher" categories (HBO/University) and changing from one category to another is very difficult until you've finished the first. So, say you were tracked into MBO, you first have to finish that (3 years, used to be 4) before you can go to HBO (and even then there are often extra requirements you need to meet like a certain grade point average or an extra admission test) and then you have to do that for 4 years before you can go to university (and here there are often again these extra requirements). This takes a lot of persistence, perseverance and stamina.
To me, this sounds unhealthy. Children need time to be children, they need to focus on social connections and developing not in the area of getting good grades but at being human and having fun. The Dutch system is not an easy system and one that has a lot of rigor. Although it is possible to make your way through, your teachers will tell you you’re never going to make it all the way until you’ve actually reached it (I know, I’ve lived through it).
True but you can also take a different route, when I went to school I ended up MAVO but then did MEAO / HEAO / Uni. Could also do HAVO / HEAO / Uni. But I guess those school names are probably outdated by now as I'm almost 50 years old ;D
primary schools (and in larger schools teachers of different groups between them) do tend to compete on how many of their children end up in VWO, at least it was that way when I was doing my CITO in 1981.
The school I was in definitely pushed pupils to choose VWO, even if their CITO scores were marginal for it.
When I studied abroad in the US for a semester I really felt like I was regressing in maturity and independence. There was such a big stress on attendance, supervision, homework and teachers, and the classes were incredibly easy (I went from a 7 average to being a straight-A student while doing significantly less work). I think that studying in the US is incredible as a fun-filled adventure, but it wasn't much in terms of academics and it was ridiculously expensive!
Everyone has a different experience. Because some friends and I felt like the classes were easier in Europe than in the US. Actually that’s why we were able to travel a lot. As always it is different for everyone.
@@SC-mo7peI think that might be a function of the high school experience that students have. If you've gone to a rigorous college prep high school whether public or private and jumped through the testing hoops, by the time you get to university, depending on the setting, it might actually feel like a weight lifted off. 😁
My daughter in law, while studying in DBU, was also required to take a certain number of hours studying theology, which was not her interest at all and even sometimes conflicting, on content, with her main courses like biology.
My ex was American and did well in uni there, but was shocked at how much more difficult uni in the Netherlands was when she came here for her master's degree. Also foreigners are often disappointed by the grades they receive. Dutch profs are harsh when it comes to grading. Indeed, straight A students sometimes end up with a 7 average, and they go from top of the class to feeling mediocre.
Back when I went to university, in the 70s, we had a very broad "high school" education ("gymnasium" it was called), where you were taught modern languages (French, English and German), classical Greek and Latin, mathematics, physics, chemistry and biology, as well as history and geography, so maybe it was taken for granted that you had some basic knowledge in all these fields before applying for a university. The education system has changed since then, but I'm sure this is broadly still the same.
In Peru, this is usually covered in the first year of university (sometimes two years) as a "General Studies" program that is also partly focused towards the sciences or the humanities dependin on the program you choose when signing up. Some intro/fundamentals subjects are done in this period to help students confirm their final choice. This way, university is at least 5 years long (6 for law, psychology) and a wonderful cash cow for all the deregulated little "advisory" study centers that pop up around university buildings to help struggling students with the tough subjects (and also profit by preparing secondary school kids prepare for the admission tests - one per university, a massacre in public ones, though).
I think this is very true. I think, whether in the EU or the US, there was a relatively small period of time where students got much more of a sturdy foundational education, where even the garbage/rubbish pick up guys had a decent grasp of the basics that make civil society work. Not going to university was not a big deal because you still had a chance to gain solid skills in a reputable training program and then go to work with your hands or just not behind a desk.
At least in the US which is my personal experience, that's all but collapsed. Both my kids are in so called college prep honors programs in high school and they still read half as much literature as I did (I'm only 53) in high school and writing is not taught at all. We pay out of pocket for tutors to bring them both up to the base line of the education I got back in the 80s. In the late 70s into the 80s and beyond, states began balancing the budgets on the backs of k-12 education cuts and state university systems. That meant k-12 kids were less prepared to move up and colleges began ratcheting up cost to in state students. Now, at some of the cheapest public colleges and universities it's close over $30k to attend the non-flagship schools.
The unfortunate take away people have is that they don't need higher education. When k-12 is inadequate and higher education is financially out of reach without debt, the whole thing begins to resemble a house of cards. Democracy requires better than what America is offering our kids and young people.
Great video again, one note on the stress of getting of Uni. There is quite some pressure on kids at the age of 11, mainly from parents, to get in the highest level of high of highschool, i.e. VMBO, HAVO, VWO.
Yeah, it's actually crazy but that's where the cut-off actually happens.
@@nomoresunforever3695 Its an important selection period but not a definte cut off. There are many ways you can get MBO and even HBO levels even if you start out at a vmbo level i would say University is practical impossible. Yes it is way more difficult. But your paths are not set in stone.
Also allmost all level are valued depending what you wanna do in youre life. It depends more on what kind of subject you do then wich level. Ofcourse the higher the level the less important it becomes for a lot of jobs cause if you have a certain level its presumed that you can learn on the job even if you studied something completly differnt. And yes you do have a higher status if you attended a higher level but that doesn't really mean all that much in the Netherlands we aren't that class or status contiuos.
@Arturo Bianco yea that's true, MBO is what you do after the lowest level, but MBO is not university. It's trade school. Almost everyone can get some kind of higher education after high school, but it will be very difficult to achieve anything similar to American university.
@@nomoresunforever3695 I’ve actually met multiple people that moved up from MBO to University. Sure, it’s uncommon, but moving up to HBO is not, and from there it’s just a small step. Starting off at MBO it will just take you five years to be able to apply for a WO-bachelor.
This depends on your parents, my parents never pushed me to go to the highest class of highschool.
The big moment here in the Netherlands is before you go to high school. You take an exam that will indicate at what level in high school you can study: VMBO, HAVO or VWO. These different levels take 4, 5 and 6 years in high school respectively and determine what level of higher education you can choose after high school: MBO, HBO (hoge school) or WO (university).
The exam before high school is a very important part of the recommendation your school will give to the high school you want to go to. You can always choose to do a lower level than your recommendation but not higher. If you want to do a higher level, you need to be acing all your classes and hope you get transfered, or spend additional years in high school after you pass your final exams for your level. e.g. if you do VMBO it's 4 years, 2 years extra if you want to continue with HAVO, and another 2 years after that if you continue with VWO (and it gets harder the higher you get).
With VMBO you can get an MBO degree, with HAVO an MBO or HBO degree and with VWO either MBO, HBO or university.
If you complete a MBO study (4 years) it's the same as having a HAVO dimploma and you can do HBO.
If you complete the first year of a HBO study (with all credits) you get a special diploma and can continue with university.
As you can see there's a lot of benefit to getting in at a higher level in high school. VWO is best; you have all the options, HAVO is okay; you can still do pretty much everything without getting delayed too much. VMBO should be avoided; it really limits what you can do later in life and if you want more options, you need to spend 4-6 years extra in school
THIS IS WHEN WE ARE 11-12 YEARS OLD
I've honestly been very lucky that my mom never cared much for academic prowess and just let me do what I wanted to do, but now looking back I can't imagine what people with parents opposite of mine go through to try and get to HBO or WO. Like even now that we have a crisis of too little MBO students, there's still this massive stigma around doing MBO and becoming anything other than a white collar office executive
Not everybody has the same learning ability so not everybody can go to VWO. The majority goes to the "to be avoided" VMBO. And that is no problem. You can still take the path to University, it just takes longer. Often parent put pressure on schools to give them a higher advice because they think their kids are better. Everybody needs to walk their own path.
High school entrance exams didn't exist when I went to Gymnasium (grammar school). And no, I did NOT come from wealthy circles, but from a classic working-class environment. Together with 4 classmates I went to the gymnasium on the recommendation of the superintendent of the Primary School. The man had seen it right: of those 4, 3 obtained an academic degree. This was around 1962. The superintendent was a social democrat of the old attitude: "instruct and learn to uplift".
If you say avoid vmbo you write off more than 60% of the population of The Netherlands. Yes we need some people with high education, but what’s shown the last couple of years we need more craftsman like, plumbers, electricians, builders, service technicians, nurses etc. The chance to be out of job is higher if have hbo or uni degree
@@kasper2970 En zo is het maar net, retteketet. 🙂
Loved the video.
About a gap year: I have the feeling that people from the more priviliged families (priviliged in terms of money, education of parents, ethnicity, urban or rural, etc) tend to take a gap year more often than the average student. It takes a bit of confidence to know that you can take it easy.
I love the American system where you can experiment a bit when you are in college, I wish I had that during my 'studententijd'!
And yes we also have sororities/fraternities, especially the 'corps' is infamous with a lot of hazing and alcohol abuse. They are often in the news when they did something awful again. They also tend to be more elitist and very traditional. But there are also other less traditional 'student societies' where people don't do hazing or the hazing is not dangerous/degrading.
And it's interesting that American fraternities/sororities have an obsession with Greek ("Pi Kappa Alpha" etc), while the Dutch 'corps' has an obsession with Latin ('Minerva', 'Vindicat', 'Ceres').
Aside from student organisation many inis in the Netherlands have study organisations, focussed on one study line. Those are a combination of representation of students with their faculty but also have a social content. There are hardly any excesses in those organisations.
Great Video again! You need to upload more i love the way you talk greets from an italian who is life for 21 years in Maastricht.
Really useful explanation of contrasting systems.
Fun fact, the American system exists in The Netherlands as well. It's a bachelor called 'university college' and it works the same with following different classes and choosing your main later on. And the first year you live in University housing. However this system is more popular amongst students from other countries compared to Dutch students.
Yes! I was an international student who graduated from University College Roosevelt (part of Utrecht University) and it was one of the best times of my life! Plus housing there was guaranteed for the whole 3 years. Would highly recommend it!
The Netherlands is off course much smaller, so students often don't have to live near University. We live in Haarlem and my youngest daughter goes to Leiden University. She still lives at home and travels back and forth when she has to attend classes. Much cheaper, because public transport is free for students!
doughter 😂
Wauw, what amazing story! You have it explained very exactly! Just one extra note on the Dutch students who are fastly taking an adult life: because it;s so difficult nowadays to get a student houses easily, many student are living instead much longer at there parents (also because the Netherlands is much smaller so you not have to move when you want to enter a university).
The Gymnasium, as the secondary school preparing for higher education, is called in many Continental European countries, is doing what you explained the first year of US college provides. You can study various subjects and the Gymnasium gives the students a much broader general knowledge than the US high school system does.
In Dutch it is called Voorbereidend Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs (VWO) and there are two types: atheneum without classical languages and gymnasium with classical languages.
Gymnasium still has more prestige, but I did it for pleasure.
You say you don't mean 'Hogeschool or HBO' but this type of education translates into English as University of Applied Sciences. I have a hogeschool bachelor degree and was stunned that when I had my degree assessed in Australia, it came back as the equivalent of a university degree. Much to my surprise. It also gives me an idea of what the level of 'universities' in some other countries is. Not the same as in NL. The difference between hogeschool and university is that universities is that universities do a lot more research and the hogeschool is practical, more hands on. One of my mates did a similar degree to mine at university and for the first two years many books were the same. After that, I started do internships where my mate had research assignments. The only other country where the system is similar to NL is Germany. Hogeschool there is Fachhochschule.
Important detail: while we do choose our major when we start out, we also can follow X amount of classes in unrelated fields of study, the so called free courses. This in turn means that, when we switch to a different field, we can take some of the credit/points (how do you call that?) with us to that new major and fill up X with those classes from our previous major. There's some restrictions of course, but there's a bit of freedom here. Having finished an entire major automatically discharges you from having to do any free courses in a second major.
Another thing to note is that finishing highschool in the Netherlands only gives you access to certain fields of study. Most sciences require you to follow all of mathematics in highschool for instance. Finishing the first year of any collegemajor gives you access to the first year of every other major, even when your highschool diploma didn't. Probably with some restrictions here and there, but generally that's how it works.
Not an expert as I never studied in college but the most common item about universities in the Netherlands in the media is the fact that it's impossible to find housing. And I don't see that being solved in the near future.
Wait, in The Netherlands you are not “done” after completing your BA. You are expected to do a Master’s degree afterwards. Depending of the degree, a Master’s will take another one or two years. When I went to university, there was no BA degree. The BA has been introduced to link the Hogeschool BA degree to the University degree, so Hogeschool graduates can do a Master’s degree too (typically after completing an additional ‘linking program’). Only after graduating for your Master’s, you are “done” with university.
And the BaMa structure was also chosen to resemble other countries. In order to make the transfer of degrees to other countries easier. Other countries, as I was told, typically looked down on our doctorandus-degree, whereas it used to be a bigger achievement than obtaining a master. I was one of the last to receive a doctorandus-degree at the UvA (and proud of it); I did not plan on a career abroad but could have chosen a Masters title instead.
@@esiebring7436 the sad thing is: it was mostly english-speaking countries. No problem with all the other european languages. You guessed it probably: I have the old degrees (my university days ended in 1976).
You get a Masters in 5 years?! Lol, might give my Uni a call here in Argentina because most careers take 4 or 5 years to get a Licenciatura or University degree to then get a Masters or PhD (another one or two years). Although higher university degrees are very rare still, many people my generation are "first generation university students" and start applying for jobs after their BA or earlier.
@@esiebring7436 I have a 'doctorandus' degree from both the VU and the UvA. Both universities at the time also provided me with an English language 'bul' that used masters titles. The funniest thing is that due to unterpretation differences one is a Master of Arts degree and the other a Master of Science. So with the whole country switching to the anglosaxon titles I went from a singlemtitle in front of my name to a double title (Ma and Msc) after my name.
Americans have often asked me how deep into debt I am and are shocked when they hear I did both without incurring any debt. (I never took the studie beurs loan part and I paid for it by working part time while in college.
@@grewdpastor If it helps the old degrees entitle you to use a master degree.
I was 15 when I finished high school here in the Netherlands, and 18 when I finished nursing school. Been working fulltime as a nurse since then.
Also I didn't have to pay tuition bc I was underage (not 18 till the end of the last schoolyear)
I was an American student in Belgium 30 years ago. At that time there were many Dutch students in Belgium, because Belgium didn't have any required qualifications to study anything. The Netherlands did and poor school students ended up at the bottom of the waiting list in the Netherlands. Belgium allowed everybody to try anything, first come, first accepted. It wasn't cost effective and now for serious degrees, Belgium now requires students to qualify first. Belgium had me get a Belgian student visa in the US. The Netherlands allowed Americans to get student visas after they arrived in the Netherlands.I almost studied in the Netherlands, but I had a free place to stay on a farm in Belgium and I could choose anything to study. The Belgian students went home every weekend, not even attending Friday classes, so us foreign students had the whole place to ourselves on the weekends and holidays. I was in Belgium for 4 years. One year of Dutch lessons and three years of university studies.
The topics you describe that you get in university usually are topics we get in high school. Mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, and a few languages are basic classes we get in high school.
as a non-EU and non-US national, tuition fees are what made me choose the Netherlands for my MSc over the US. year 1 has been tough, but I know I'm getting high quality education so it feels like a double win when I get good grades (anything above 7)
Here in the US, I feel like the pandemic really shook up the expectation of finishing your bachelor's in 4 years. A lot of people went part time or took time off and we started holding higher regard for mental health (although we're a long, long way from actualizing this).
Personally, I struggled academically earlier in my undergrad due to untreated ADHD which held me back, then I went part time during Covid, then I took a year off to transition and work out my various mental health issues, so I'll be 25 when I graduate next year, but I'll be a competent person with good character and considerable academic achievements from a well renowned program in my field, rather than the absolute trainwreck that I would've been had I pushed to the finish line at 22 with the "Cs get degrees" mantra. It seems that 5-10 years ago, a 25 year old undergrad would've been viewed as a straggler, but these days, people have higher regard for someone who took the time to sort out their issues and was purposeful in their education, rather than someone who cut corners to rush through to the next life milestone.
Great vide, taking a break is a great idea and I wish I had done it after finishing my VWO as it would have helped me figure out what I really like/want to do in my professional life.
Just a small correction, bachelor degrees in the Netherlands takes normally 4 years (not 3). Impressive to see how much you have indulged yourself with tons of information about the Dutch education system. Very informative video. Thank you.
In the US I did not like to have to repeat certain General Education courses I already passed in high school. I could have used that time for a part time job, joining a school sport, add a minor or second major, or take a course in art or music.
There is a major difference between universities and their cities in the Netherlands. Amsterdam and Utrecht are infamous for their housing problems, but Tilburg, Enschede and Delft generally have enough student housing. Hospiteren is the norm everywhere, but bringing drinks/gifts is definitely not common everywhere. Another major difference between cities is what living together looks like: in some cities, the norm is to eat together with your housemates every day, while here in Utrecht it's very uncommon and seen as a full evening activity.
Enschede here, in my days '95-2000 we were with 4 in a house and we usually made it so that all 4 would cook once each week, that's 4 days covered and the other 3 weekend days were some free for all system, with people being elsewhere or eating outdoors (or eating together if that was convenient
We do have 1 Campus university in the Netherlands.. the technical University Twente in Enschede. I studied there and it was a great time , really had most of the facilities you would expect at an US campus
Not only Enschede, Nyenrode in Brooklyn is another campus University in the Netherlands
@@guuslombarts9004 when I was studying, that was called a 'business school' not an university. I guess they upgraded themselves , did they expand or is it just a name change?
Very interesting video. As a Dutch person, good to hear an outside perspective. Two points:
I have to say the US-model of being able to explore various subjects before choosing a direction as to what field you want to get your degree in does sound more appealing to me also, because I feel it plays more into inspiring intellectual curiosity which is after all what university is about.
Regarding the housing, it definitely wasn't as difficult when I went to university. I just rented a house with two other people from uni and thats it (no special student interviews, or such). But I think students now have a harder time of it and may have to jump through more hoops because there is a housing crisis in general in the Netherlands.
Thanks for the insights!
This video is very timely for me. I’ve just been accepted into a Master’s program in the Netherlands. It’s crazy to me that I can move to a new country and pay $20,000 per year tuition and still have a cheaper degree than by staying local here in the US. It’s a lot to consider but youtubers like you Ava have been very enlightening for me while I make this big decision. Thanks for your content!
That's crazy! Please do take into account that finding a place to live is VERY hard, especially as a foreign student. Universities DO NOT provide housing for their students, that's really something you have to take care of yourself. Every year there're foreign students ending up being more or less homeless, having to sleep in a tent or couch surfing. It's best to start your search as early as possible!
Congrats on being accepted into the master's program, and indeed, the note on housing is important-start early!
@@picobello99 Thanks for the tip! That part makes me very anxious. Luckily my sister-in-law is currently studying in Delft and has a large house. Although not an ideal commute to Utrecht but it would prevent me from being homeless! I’ll be bringing my husband and once he’s able to secure a job hopefully we’ll have more housing options than the average student. Do you know if finding housing gets easier further from the city center? I’m quite used to a 30-60 minute commute here in the US so it wouldn’t bother me to live further away and travel often.
Yes, you got that right about attitudes towards a gap year. I took a gap year. Working at a full-time job and encountering all the challenges of working at a demanding job, was an education in itself. I went back to college ready to assume the course load. Working also helped me be a better student in terms of discipline. Many people outside of my family, though, thought I was messing up my life.
I think it's healthy that one, no matter what one decides to do, one tries to do an 8hours/day for 5 days/week.
The 8 hours can be spend earning money, studying, practicing a skill, whatever. Just 40hours/week of self improvement.
Obviously not 52 weeks/year.
The way American higher education is so competitive to get in just makes me feel like there's a huge shortage of quality education available
The issue with the competition is that's about showing how smart you are, what you are able to learn therefore, not about actually learning. I'm a fan of the 6-mentality, just make the bar that is set and then you're fine. Excelling is optional.
Ironically, being at a fancy Ivy league now but having done my bachelor/MS in the Netherlands, the education here is actually a lot lower quality than what I received in the Netherlands. But you get an A for just existing here anyway :') But pretty sure that most students I teach here would not pass in the Netherlands. So its not even quality education, they just pay for a PR-hyped brand of a University.
@@psygeek961 The Ivy League is about selection. Elite in, elite out, the garbage in between doesn't really matter. But it is a waste.
@@DenUitvreter yup. But ironically a lot of these student, who absolutely buy into the narrative of being the best, will then occupy positions in this society where they actually dont have the skills/knowledge for :(
(def not gonna stay after I get my piece of paper, which is also something they dont understand)
@@psygeek961 That's the system there from a young age, showing off you are smarter than the others instead of doing something with that smartness like learning a lot.
That's a really very fundamental difference that is much bigger than just education. In continental Europe we invest in everyone, try to make them the best versions of what they could be. In school but also at work. In the Anglo Saxon culture concerning human resources it's not supply driven but demand driven: The universities and employers watch everybody struggle and select the ones that come out on top.
Important note on the Dutch research university degrees: Just getting a bachelor's degree from one of these universities is often considered an "incomplete" education without the matching masters' degree. This is why only the master's students get the old title of "doctorandus", whilst the bachelor's students get nothing besides their bachelors' of arts/science. There are bachelors' degrees that confer old titles, but they're usually from the HBO's (universities of applied science, they do professional education and are often considered to be the "community college" equivalent, whereas the research universities actually focus on research and can be considered similar in status to ivy league or Russel group.) So overal someone who has "graduated" university is 1-2 years older than mentioned. Not to mention a lot of students simply need an extra year to complete their studies. These degrees can be difficult to obtain after all.
This. My American stepmom just couldn't understand why I was so worried about getting my Master's after a research uni bachelor's. In the end I ended up fine without my Master's (chronic illness prevented me from getting it), but mostly because I was really good at statistics and learned a bit of programming.
This. I started on my degree shortly after the shift to Bachelor/Master and was basically told by the older students that the six years course load for a doctorandus degree had just been split into a three years for a Bachelor and "two" years for a Master degree.
Je kunt alleen ing. krijgen met een bachelor (voorheen kandidaats) en dan moet je een technische opleiding doen. Mr. Ir. en Drs. kun je krijgen met een master in respectievelijk rechten, techniek en de rest.
The first year on University you do your propodeuse. After that you can switch to another direction or study
I'm so lucky with our, Dutch, system. My eldest daughter went without any problems from highschool, gymnasium, to the Erasmus University in Rotterdam where we live.Now she is in her 5th and final postmaster year. My younger daughter studies art at the St. Joost college in Breda. Thanks to the Dutch education system, were my costs for there education reduced to keep them loved, fed, and free living at home with me. The costs for their education are for 85% payed by themselves through afterschool jobs and I provide for their food and rooms here, do their laundry, their cooking, etc. Knowing my daughters, btw I'm a widdower, single parent for 12 years, are most gratefull for that, I'll also thank the Dutch system.
Another big problem when it comes to housing, besides not being able to find any, is that many student houses are owned by slumlords. Many students have great stress dealing with them.
Nice vlog, very informing! Thanks 👍
I think you need to follow up this. You did not make a clear enough distinction in applied sciences and sciences. Those are different universities, in different cities sometimes and they lead to different grades. Applied Science universities lead to Bachelor and Universities lead to a quicker Bachelor nearly always followed by a few years to get your Master). You can only become a PHD if you have done science universities. Furthermore the word "science" does not only apply to physics, chemistry, etc. But in the Netherlands it also applies to anything you can study at a university (language, law, political science, etc). This has linguistical origins. The Dutch word "wetenschap" is litteraly "knowmanship". So there is no distinction in what you actually studied to know. But, there is a difference. You have two sorts of masters degrees. One is MA (Master of Arts, for languages, history, geography, archeology, sociology and whatnot) and MSc (Master of Science) for things like Engineering, Chemistry, Physics etc. The only exception I know of is Political Science that leads to an MSc title despite being a social science. Furthermore there is in NL more emphasis on group work, and from what I hear, Americans generally find the level here very high (tough). Lastly, the unfamiliar grading system does not make it easier. This goes from 1 (extremely bad) to 9 or 10 (depending on your professor) which is "excellent". You pass with 6, sometimes 5.5 and get your credits. "A level" is generally comparable to merely a "7" (more than adequate) here. Another difference in culture may be that nobody in the Netherlands is interested in your grades unless you go for PHD application. People outside the academic world only look if you have the appropriate certificate. And oh, sports is something you do in your free time. It has zero influence on your higher education in the Netherlands (no grades or credits for it). Universities here are purely intellectual. On the plus side, many courses can be taken in English, although politicians want to limit this for outside EU students because too many students come here and there is no housing for domestic and foreign students alike. This is a huge problem.
You should seriously consider to keep your statements a bit shorter. Couple of subjects or so. Unclear what the point is and people don't react. Why bother.
The other distinction is that the application system has defacto already been completed by obtaining a VWO diploma. All prospect students for universities have been vetted prior to applying. The vwo students should be able to complete university. American colleges range from mbo to VWO in level and therefore a selection is carried out after high school. High schools also vary greatly in quality whereas each Dutch schools follow the same curriculum and the students are therefore comparable. No need to to an additional time-consuming assessment.
Psychology can get you a BSc/MSc too. More and more social science degrees have a research masters which will give you a MSc.
Thank you for your comment!
Ava, thanks for the informative content about the US university system vs. the Dutch system. I guess there wasn't much you've missed.
BTW most Universities in the Netherlands have a Studium Generale system set up to spread broader knowledge.
Interesting viewpoints! To add some perspective: the stress about getting selected for college takes place at age 12 in the Netherlands. Tests equivalent to SAT determine the type/cognitive level of highschool. Only the highest level will open doors for university later on. Disadvantage: career-stress at a very young age. Advantage: high level highschool enables universities to start at a higher level.
Holland invests heavily in education for economic reasons. Knowledge is part of the Dutch capital. So there is not as much time for students to take extra classes to find out who they are and what they want.
So there is enormous pressure on Dutch youngsters, just in different times and ways.
Another X-Pat from the US here. When I graduated HS in 1968, tuition at the California University system was $49 a semester. One could afford housing & school costs with a part time job at McDonalds! Greedy politics and Cyclic economic crisis contributed to our high costs. I appreciated the general education requirements and the flexibility that comes with not being part of a cohort. I never lived on campus. That said, I have the impression that academics are a bit more rigorous here in the Netherlands. And I love the lack of emphasis on status of the school, low costs, and general benefits granted to students (free transportation, monetary support, free admission to some museums etc.).
"Hospiteren" in my experience (I studied in Leiden some 25 years ago - the situation may be different in other university cities or even nowadays in Leiden) was mainly a thing for frat houses. Here in Leiden we had the Stichting Leidse Studentenhuisvesting (Leiden Student Housing Society) where you could put your name down and they would, in time, assign student housing to you. There were quite a few apartment buildings for students all over the city, owned by the SLS, for this very purpose. You'd typically have a single room with shared kitchen and bathroom facilities and sometimes a communal living room, which you would share with about 4 to 10 other students, your "huisgenoten" (house mates) or "ganggenoten" (corridor mates).
As to "hospiteren", in my opinion, and the opinion of lots of fellow students of mine, the system was quite toxic. Designed so that prospective house mates will suck up to the people already living there in all kinds of ways to make a good first impression. In fact, a friend of mine for this reason founded a "hospiteerdispuut" (a "dispuut" in this context being a club within a larger student society) where they would go to a hospiteeravond with the express purpose of derailing the hospiteer-process. They would typically pretend they did not know each other and start asking all kinds of awkward` questions and making disparaging remarks about the building and its denizens.
When I was a student, most students would cook for themselves or their "gang" (corridor). And it could be a mess here as well: I remember one huisgenoot of mine who wanted to cook cauliflower and just dumped the entire thing, leaves and all, in a pan to fry it, and when things did not work out, had to call his mom for advice.
As to Dutch frat culture: Some 25 years ago (and still available on RUclips) there used to be a Dutch comedy show on TV called Jiskefet (which apparently means "dustbin" in Frisian) where they had a series of sketches called "de lullo's" (which roughly translates to "the frat boys") where Dutch frat culture was made fun of.
Highly recommended if you want to know about Dutch frat culture, but be warned, it can be quite crude and misogynistic. The latter used to be (and still is, if I am any judge), unfortunately, quite prevalent in frat culture. Even the affected, almost comically exaggerated high class Dutch accent is very typical of Dutch frat culture, and I would imagine that as a linguist, you would be interested in learning about that.
Hospiteeravonden happen in non-fraternity houses too. Private landlords will often let the current tenants look for a new tenant. Sometimes they choose a friend or aquaintance and sometimes they organise a hospiteeravond.
I was super surprised to hear about this side of hospiteren. For me (at UTwente, 2008) it was just a way to talk to prospective flatmates and figure out which house is the best fit for everyone. UTwente does have a campus though, and people that can't find a home through hospiteren were assigned to houses that didn't pick anyone.
I'm sorry, Eva, but you there are some mistakes in your video about our educational system. The BA is done after 3 years, but that is not getting you anywhere. You need another 2 years to get your master's degree. So in total, the duration of your university education, your master's degree, is 5 years. Then, getting a Ph.D. will take another 4 years. So your degree equals 9 years of study here. The BA of Applied University (Hogeschool) takes 4 years.
Also, the level of education is very different. Whereas the top colleges in the USA are the very best in the world, most of them (the local ones) would not qualify as colleges in the Netherlands. They would qualify as MBO-4.
And US highschool equals HAVO. So the undecided years in between can be considered to be the last two years of VWO. The final year when you decide in which you want to graduate can be compared to propedeuse for HBO or University.
Nobody can finish University in the Netherlands when only nineteen or twenty years old.
@@dutchman7623 I had family that barely finished MAVO go to the US for a year of high school and then a BA, he graduated both as a straight A student.
I would not call high school a HAVO equivalent.
@@00wheelie00 I know. High school doesn't have a national standard, nor does college. That is why it is important on which school/university you were.
About student housing, I live in Leiden with a University famous for having started without *any* building to its name and still being about 250 years behind with housing students. The effect of this is called "verkamering" where property owners can make way more money with renting space to students than with any other use.
These rooms are extremely expensive, badly regulated and often dangerous fire traps.
This jacks up rent and property prices enormously (AirBnB etc.. does not help here) making it almost impossible for locals to find living space.
@8:20 In the Netherlands there are bachelor degrees on “Liberal Arts and Sciences”, which are more general programs that allow one to choose a focus area in the 2nd or 3rd year. Then you do a master for specialization on a specific area.
I'm not sure the system still exists, but back when I did Uni in NL, not only were the annual fees affordable, studying was also generously supported by government allowances - basically, means-tested against your parents' income. And if you didn't qualify for these, and couldn't/didn't want a side job, you could get affordable loans (sub-market rates).
There are actually several small Liberal Arts & Sciences colleges in the Netherlands as well, that do things the American way (i.e. taking courses in several fields and only declaring your major in your second year, they even use the American grading system). I attended one and it really suited me! At my specific uni this also included mandatory living on university campus, which means you're guaranteed an affordable room, quite a blessing in the current housing crisis. Unlike American campus however, you did have to cook, and it was located in the middle of the city, rather than its own community, and we could also stay in our housing during the breaks. I have also lived on a 'proper' large campus whilst studying abroad in Ireland, where everything is as you described for the US, with its own supermarket, coffeeshops, cinema etc.
I second that! I studied at University College Roosevelt (Utrecht University) and it was an amazing experience for me :)
I think the MOST odd thing, as a Dutch person (who did a BS/MS in the Netherlands) now doing a PhD in the US is how 'great' the Ivy undergrads think their education is, when its actually VERY subpar compared to the education I received. And the ego boost they get from attending this famous university. But its really ALL PR for most part. You just PAY for the name value, thats all. (oh and pay over a 1000 USD annually for 'campus life' fees on top of tuition, so you can do a silent disco once a year on the center of campus... great value....)
Plus, that we have to give them an A for existing (their work wouldn't pass in the Netherlands), because the fancy university is afraid that if we don't give them the 'perfect' college experience the rich parents don't donate.
AND how weird it is that the 'work-study' students (aka the poorer students) get assigned jobs where they have to work in the campus call center to call the rich parents for money... GROSS.
Why you did not do your PHD in Europe?
@@SC-mo7pe as a naive european i couldnt even imagine what a shitshow it is. Ive studied and lived in Asia too, so I figured there was some international standard, but nop. but location is good, salary is decent and a better starting point for future negotiations, university name value + academically its set up very different (i.e. rather than working on a grant, you often have more freedom; networking; duration; etc.). But I do regret it.
Colleges in the US are companies, based on the profit idea. If this is helpfull to get a well educated society? I doubt so.
A lot of assumptions and sloppy opinion. Good job dude 😂
@@dudtspeed Literally true for the Ivy league I'm currently at as a PhD? So not sure what is incorrect about it?
Growing their endowment seems to be their primary priority, together with using Covid as an excuse to cut every possible thing but massively invest in real estate at the same time.
@@psygeek961 yeah the primary motivation to go to college to see it as a company. Great start with your texbooks thinking you're joining a corporation.
@@dudtspeed I dont think he means it from the students perspective. But to universities themselves and how they run themselves, especially private universities, is really more a corporate entity with education on the side (which gives them actual tax breaks).
Like why does Columbia's uni president Bollinger need to make 4million dollars a year? Or why the uni paid for the 23 million dollars renovation of his house? While a large portion of the teaching staffs are adjuncts on salaries that are extremely difficult to survive on, classrooms are full of broken equipment that is from the last century (including furniture), and so on
Thank you for your insights, gave me some perspective I never knew I needed. Personally I can relate to the pressure/stress factor of having to pick your university at 18/19 years of age. I had an idea but really… i wasn’t ready to carve my path in stone there and then. It has led to me just not performing at my best because student life, living on my own, discovering everything outside of my parent’s home was overwhelming and great (partying). I truly believe that (in my case) I was asked too early in my life to make this decision.
Dutch highschool has multiple levels and only the two highest levels will normally grant access to a a university education. High school at these levels are at least at the same level as a jr college AA degree or even higher. A VWO student also learns latin and greek as well as several other languages. The level they are at upon graduation is well beyond even the most advanced American highschool students. This, together with the lack of unnecessary courses padding the curriculum, make the length of time necessary for a bachelors diploma that made shorter.
As someone who picked something i didn't end up enjoying the school system in the Netherlands was always more of an annoyance to me. The system where you can take a bunch of classes seems exactly what I needed at that time in my life. I didn't end up finishing my bachelor till i was 26
What you forgot to add to your story is that from September 2023 students will again receive a scholarship of 400 euros per month and free public transport.
Going to “high school” as you described it is only if you are in the track to go to university, as opposed to a vocational track. What Americans tend to do after high school, university, community college, trade school, etc. is done about 3-4 yrs. earlier and in “high school” you are either in a track to go to university or you are not. In general, this is true in most EU countries.
You explained it so clear.. thank you...welkom at utrecht its my city 030
Very nice video again. What surprised me most is that, apparently, US student life with campus and dorms and such, are pretty much the same "as seen on TV". Maybe this is one of the few subjects where TV-reality matches the real reality. On that matter: I would be interested to see how life on TV shows are matching reality, so a future video? Like: are school proms really a (big) thing, are people dating only colleagues from work.
BTW, I agree that it is a benefit if you could explore all kinds of academic fields before choosing a major. When I was a student, there were plenty of other students who didn't actually know why they were there. They just wanted to go to uni, for whatever reason, so they just picked something. Most kids however, choose a study because they know what they want to become, what career they want to pursue, and choosing the study is a part of the path to that career. And from that perspective, it's more effective to follow a curriculum that is focused on that field from the beginning.
When you switch your degree here you can often carry over the credits you got from the classes you took. Usually there's an elective portion of classes in your degree where you can do whatever you want, so even if you transfer to a really different major you can use the credits there. I switched from psychology to computer science so I filled my free slots with the psych classes I got the best grades for and I also got an exemption for a basic research skills class because I had already done a bunch of that in psych. When I did psychology I also did some fun electives like a art history class
I think in the US not deciding on your major in your sophomore is more common than students choosing electives in the Netherlands (my only sources are my gut feelings and the internet though).
@@dodec8449 You are forced to choose electives in the Netherlands, there is X (this differs) amount of credits per degree which you have to pick for yourself, on top of specialty tracks within degrees (also varies per degree, mine didn't have specialty tracks, but most others at my university had).
@@SteelCreeck In my experience they are typically not in the first year though so that's a difference.
"Just pass your classes and go to university". That is far from the entire truth here in the Netherlands. The way we make great higher level education affordable is basically by picking early to whom we make it accessible.
Kids are sorted into different difficulties of high school at a fairly young age. Based on their results in school and their scores in nation-wide tests (that are pretty much IQ tests). Believe it or not the testing for this sorting starts in elementary school. If you are sorted into the higher levels of high school it gives direct access to universities (some additional criteria can apply such as the classes that you have taken). But for kids who do not fall into that category it is a different story entirely.
I was brought up in the Dutch system and benefited from it by always having access to the best education possible without it being expensive. But there is a downside to separating kids at an early age based on measured academic potential. In a way it is a much tougher system than the one in the U.S. and far from the inclusive utopia the video portrays it as. We simply subsidize the academically gifted. Simple and plain. No amount of extra-curricular activity, athletic success or time spent in debate clubs matter in the Dutch system.
My start at secondary school was not a lucky one. Later I discovered that I could learn and at the adge of 28 I did an entrance exame to university. Everyone in the Netherlands can do that. You just have to be over 21, but you have to prepare youself. I studied Laws at an ordenary university part time, followed the adviced progame of 7 years and worked 30 years as a lawyer.
with housing, there are various types of student housing. Typically student housing where a bunch of students live together in an otherwise "normal" house tend to be the ones that have "hospiteeravonden", but there's more individual housing either from a private landlord or from a student housing orginisation. With the latter, you sign up on an online platform and apply online for houses/rooms you'd like to live in (they're up for a short amount of time, but there's a limit to how many you can apply per day, so you're applying to some every day), and usually based on various factors that modify priority, if you're the person with the highest priority who applied to that, you get it offered and you can accept or decline it (if you decline, it gets offered to next hoghest priority person who applied for it).
You tend to either have a kitchen in your own (studio)apartment, or (more likely) have a shared kitchen with a bunch of people in a house or student housing hallway, so you can cook yourself.
Universities do tend to offer affordable meals as well, and some student associations also offer affordable meals, either specific to their members, or to all students who want it (the latter used to be more common when univesrities still subsidised it, nowadays they don't and it's often association members only)
I don't know if travel for a year is a European thing per se. Australians are everywhere worldwide travelling and working abroad.
As for campus life it is a thing but it is more spread out. You might join a student (sport) organization which is not fully affiliated with the university (there is no college football/basketball) but still uses (sports) facilities paid for by the university and has board members on a university scholarship.
If you want to study in The Netherlands anything related to health, then you have to get through the selection procedure. This involves the exact same things as in the US: extra tests, extracurricular activities, best high school grades. I suppose that one difference is that in The Netherlands you can apply for two studies at a university at most (e.g. psychology and medicine at university 1 counts as 2 attempts, or medicine at university 1 and 2 counts as 2 attempts). If you're not selected for either, then bad luck, you won't study in the field of health. And as universities don't offer the possibilities to follow courses in any subject that interest you, there is no way around this selection. If you're not selected then you're out. This is also a reason why some students are forced to take a gap year to try again the next year.
That's due to there being more students applying than they can place students in the practical experience tracts though. Universities are limited by the number of placements available in hospitals etc.
I know several people that studied medicine and the system has changed a couple of times.
I know most just had straight up lotteries; grades didn't even matter.
There also seems to have been a period where there was an initial selection on grades, followed by a lottery if there were still to many applicants.
None of them had to do/show proof of extra curricular activities or do extra work to get in. One had to take summer course to catch up because she had a knowledge deficit from not choosing a subject at VWO. Simply put she didn't meet the requirements. Once she did, she entered the lottery like everyone else.
@@00wheelie00 The weighted lottery system was changed several years ago. Universities now select their students from those applying.
@@weerwolfproductions That's messed up. Let's see how long this lasts before it's killed by claims it disadvantages students from lower social classes and/or minorities.
Don't you reckon it's time to change your opening from ,,..an American living in the Netherlands'' to ,,..an Utrechter born and raised in America''? Can't get around your love for our Stadsie 😊 She suits you.
Love your videos! Keep 'em coming!
After my 'senior year' of 'high school', I was drafted for military service. After my service, I went to work.
Going to university isn't really a thing for a lot of people. Over here (NL), going to university mostly depends on the career you choose.
Yeah, the US college entrance process is very toxic, as you say, and these days it's more and more common for US kids to start worrying about college and putting together a resume as early as late elementary school, something I saw when I worked at a US university in recent years. Like so many things in the US, it didn't used to be so stressful, competitive, and careerist, but that was back when college was more affordable and there was more equality in US society, as well as a broader range of career options that people could support themselves on. Now, there is only a relatively narrow range of careers that a person can support themselves on and those areas are extremely competitive.
And the European gap year thing illustrates another area where US careerism and US society are extremely harsh and irrational. Over the past thirty years in the US, it has become necessary to always be working on your career. If you have a period of time on your resume where you took a year off to travel or study or just relax instead of working on your career, that is considered suspect and largely unacceptable to US employers, unless you can say that you were spending that year working on job skills in some way. It's the same with US university admissions offices now, too. If you took a gap year, you'd better be able to explain to admission officers that you were spending that year taking courses or studying to further your academic career or your professional career. If you can't explain it in that way, your application will likely be rejected. It's a really sick society.
I know you did not talk about de HBO schools but some do have a campus with dorms. My daughter lived at one with around 400 students living there. With a great campus life 😁 and "studenten verenigingen" (mixed fraternity/sorority).
America also has a lot of community colleges which serve many of the same functions and students as European technical schools. And they cost much less than full colleges and universities.
I understand the credits of community college can translate to two years of uni. So a huge cost saving , also community colleges are more widespread than unis
Me being 18 doing nothing with my life for the next 3 years until I finaly felt like I wanted to go back to school and here I am 30 and a teachers assistent now thinking about going back to school again to become a teacher.
The journey starting at age 11 to get to VWO and finishing VWO passing the exam as well as the high first year uni drop out level is the selection process. Different but not absent
Despite the fact that I think taking a gap year is a great idea, i have not encouraged my senior to do so because I'm fairly sure she might not go back into school. There are so many structural issues in America, mostly around money and healthcare that as a family we actually kinda of need her to go right after high school (I've got a senior and a sophomore). As expensive as it is to live on campus, living off campus can be a massive expense if a car is needed (we all know public transport is abysmal in the US) and because the cost of a 1 bdrm is close to $1700/mo in many places (our local community doesn't really have studio apartments unfortunately). The other thing is that my kids are currently supported under our health insurance until 24 and after that they're on their own.
I tried to get my oldest to apply for university in Utretch and Leiden, but she dug her heels in and doesn't want to. 🥺
You don't need to get your own appartment when going to MBO, HBO or Uni. You can just keep on living with your parents until you are done studying and have a job.
While dorms / studentenhuizen are nice they are also expensive.
Many people for that reason stay at home and just travel to uni. In the netherlands you can reach most universities within an hour of travel with good public transport.
Off course this doesnt work for all subject but many subject can be reached within the hour. for example where I live. Nijmegen (Radboud University(including Medical), TU/e, Tilburg University, Utrecht University are all reachable with Public transport in an hour or less. slightly more than an hour is Erasmus, Vu and UoA. Only if you live in the northeastern provinces you are kinda screwed with only the RUG as a serious option and Twente for technical studies, this is where you see a lot more student housing issues.
So while student housing options are an issue in the netherlands, the alternative (travel from home) is both cheaper and very viable and doesnt leave you with a lot of lending debts (to pay for that housing) at the end of your studies. Living on yourself is expensive it dwarfs the colleage tuition by many times. it's easily €1000+ a month.
Fascinating. Of course, another major difference, is the prevalence of Athletics Departments on US campuses, that tend to to dominate student culture. And, along with Athletics, the alumni who turn out for sporting events, and contribute to fundraising. My guess is that in the Netherlands, students play sports more within the community, than through their schools, per se.
This tuition fee is twice as much as it was when I went to uni!
Hallo Ava, I studied in university under the old system in NL in the eighties. I recognize some aspects of the US system like study duration of 5 year or more, the possibility to choose optional/additional subjects, 1000 euro tuition fee per year and the large eating facilities. These seem to have disappeared in the new system..
Hogeschool which not a univericy in the netherlands, international its a univerxcity degree and not a college degree. its a univercity of applied science international
The gap year only became an option, for men, when the draft was suspended (not abolished) by the government. Before then, when you graduated from secondary school, you could obtain a deferment from military service if you went to university. Otherwise you went straight into the military for anything between 18 to 30 months, depending on which branch you went into and what you did there. For women it was different. They could do whatever they wanted. Potentially, that difference has now been eradicated, because women are now subject to the draft as well. That is: everyone, male or female, becomes subject to the draft upon their 18th birthday (you get a letter from the Defence Secretary informing you of this a few days after your 18th birthday) but what is officially called “initial training” has been suspended. However, it only takes a stroke of the Defence Secretary’s pen to reinstate initial training and what with:
- the Ukraine war and
- the dire shortage of personnel in all 3 branches of the military
reinstatement is no longer totally inconceivable.
Let's not forget that in the past going to university used to be very special in The Netherlands, while nowadays almost everyone seems to go to university. Moreover, your student's years used to last much longer than now (4 or, exceptionally, 5 years to obtain your master's degree). My conclusion is that the university in The Netherlands doesn't teach you much about science. You have to get your PHD (doctor's degree) to find out more about what science really is. The difference between university and hogeschool is becoming smaller and smaller every year.
Just want to add that if you only do your 3 year bachelor you still don't have much of a degree and to finish university you need to do you masters which can vary from 1 to 3 years on top of the 3 years bachelor
When you said college was not a Hogeschool, did you realise hogescholen are still universities of applied science? They give bachelors and master degrees too.
Hogescholen zijn niet toegelaten om masters opleidingen te geven. Wel postgraduaat opleidingen. Ik heb het dan wel over België, misschien dat het anders is in NL.
@@maskedgamer7565 In NL is het sinds kort mogelijk voor HBO's om de "master of science/arts" titel uit te mogen geven mits hiervoor geacrediteerd. Mogen daar dan wel niet de drs./ir. titel bij verstrekken. Het onderscheid tussen de hogescholen en universiteiten wordt hier in mijn optiek ook steeds kleiner. Zijn nu zelfs onderzoeksgerichte lectoraten ingericht. Waarbinnen HBO'ers zelfs mogen promoveren. Beetje rare gewaarwording is het wel.
@@TheNubis99 Interessant om te horen. In Bëlgie zijn ze er ook mee bezig maar zie het nut er niet echt van in. In ieder geval het enige verschil tussen universiteiten en hogescholen in BE is dat de ene meer theoretisch is en de andere praktischer en uiteraard de lengte van de opleiding verschilt. De ene 4 jaar de andere 3. Om werk te vinden wordt er niet echt naar gekeken tenzij het echte specifieke jobs zijn.
@Dutch Americano - how about a 'gap year'? I've heard about people going on a year's travel after college, is that uncommon? Or only for those of wealthy parents perhaps?
Watch some college football games on RUclips and compare to NL uni sports games if you can even find it on RUclips. Most students just continue high school type life living at home or in a room or shared apartment. Student life is limited to the few Studentenverenigingen only involving a small share of students.
In my day, admittedly in the last century, a hogeschool was simply a one faculty university
It taught what you needed to know to enter a profession. As in Canada today a masters is
of little-, and a doctorate of no use, except for teaching. So it perpetuates the idea that for
teaching practical experience takes a back seat to level of education. Unfortunately the
same goes for our Canadian community colleges
I think most people take a gap year because they haven't decided on their major yet, since we can't go in undecided like in the US
While there's nothing culturally against taking a gap year in the Netherlands, it's not at all common. You only get government support for studying up to a certain age, so you typically start as soon as possible. I don't think I know anyone who took a gap year. Maybe when you graduate, but not between schools typically.
You can sort of experiment a bit with what direction you go, because you can switch education quite easily. But during a period you need to study the direction you chose, simply because the idea is you're learning for a certain group of professions so you need to focus on that. It's a bit old fashioned because we actually know people often don't end up in a job they studied for, but I understand the fear of having a bunch of half educated people in the workforce. We already have that with lower educations and it's a mess.
Agree with that a gap year is not that common. I also feel it's more a thing in priviliged families.
About experimenting, a lot of people think when they are 18-19 they have to pick their entire career and are not allowed to change, while when you grow older you wished you experimented a bit more and all your worries didn't mean that much in the grand scheme of things. Yes, you can switch education, but I feel this is also a priviliged thing (although it's more common than gap years). People from poorer and/or practically educated families tend to think they have to stay on track and can't rock the boat, while sometimes switching was a better option.
The age requirement for government support for studying is that you have to be under 30 when you start. So that's not the issue. The issue is probably more that you need something else to live on during a gap year, and not all parents would be happy to jump in for that.
I also think it would be nice if you could spend a year sampling different fields, though I think we do that in high school in a way. And it would add another year to uni. The closest you get is doing your minor, which can be a different field.
Another big difference is the funding of the students, grants and scholarships. Another forgotten aspect is that american universities have the bachelor as a complete study. In the Netherlands, 95% finish the master as that completes the education. A further difference is that in the Netherlands, dus to being a small country, many students study from home, commuting daily. A last difference, Most americal uni's are more practical than dutch uni's, who are more academic.
1 remark to the point that you mention that in The Netherlands, (which is very important to mention) that you wish people in the Netherlands had more time to choose the main subject they study in University.
In fact, from age 12, students are already put in schools according to their capability and capability, meaning, A-students go to Atheneum/Gymnasium, B-student to the HAVO and so on and are not put in the same class as in the USA. That is one very important (complete) difference in the Dutch education system. In the thirst 3 years you get an introduction to many subjects in which after class 3 you have to choose a direction so by the time you finish the middelbare school (middle school or high school) you basically already have chosen a direction before you enter University or go to the Hogere School.
On a personal note, please don't mention hagelslag anymore (its an image that only lives among expats to justify their sugar intake in the morning, LOL) and please visit the town of 's-Hertogenbosch. Great videos btw, love to watch them because you are very observant.
I did HEAO in the Netherlands, only to find out, I totally sucked at Business Administration, and my American English (I went to North Carolina as exchange student for a year after graduating from HAVO, 5 year high school program) wasn't exactly up to snuff according to my English teacher who talked like he had a frog in his throat😝. I did okay with languages, but economics wasn't exactly what I really wanted. The high school didn't really flow well into the HEAO, would have been better if I had done VWO( highest level of high school 6 years, you can finish HAVO and start at 5th year in VWO). What you didn't mention is that in high school we have to choose what continuing education we want to follow as in 2 years before graduating, you choose which subjects you want to graduate with. Like in 3rd year HAVO I had to choose 6 subjects to graduate with, so you had to choose at fairly early age what you wanted to do as career. I flunked out. After I found out what I did want to do, I went to the States and graduated with a BSN, I enjoy learning so art and theater classes(intro to) and learning how to play tennis. I lived on campus for 2 years, after that off campus. You did forget to mention that in the States, especially State University, that many dorms close for holidays. I had to leave for Fall Break and Christmas break in the first dorm and had to switch dorms so I didn't have to move for spring break as well.
Ava, you are right.👌🤗
What also doesn't add up is the quality of the universes. 🧐There are multiple studies that have published quality differences of uni's in different country's.😳 Look it up...?🤓😎
There is another difference you didn’t mention, and that are the scholarships. In The Netherlands everyone is entitled to a scholarship granted by the state. The amount of money you get depends on the income of your parents.
I don’t the specifics of it nowadays, but tuition fee used to be included in the scholarship.
All students also get free travel in the weekend or the week.
Big differences are the 1. In the Netherlands we strive for a medium level of universities, so there is no struggle to get in the "best" university. Furthermore we are totally public, no private unis. Costs are much lower, fee is typically under $3. k. None of our unis have a campus system. Funding is open to all. A basic funding will be forgiven when one graduates within ten years. Furthermore, the typical US uni, is more like our Hogeschool, four years for a bachelor. In the US most students stop at their bachelor and look for a job. In the Netherlands most bachelors will not get you a job. So 95% of dutch students take a master. The majority of US students stop at the bachelor. Masters are mostly populated in the US by foreign students. Phd is almost totally populated by foreigners. This is even more so in technical studies. According to my son who did a PhD in a technical study and was also a teacher there. He found that US studies are a bit more hands on, while in the Netherlands it is more academic. All in all, I prefer the dutch system, even as it gave my son some good opportunities
If you would go to a technical university, the first speech you get is: "Look to your left, look to your right. One of them is gone in January, because drop out rate is 50% in the first semester." Also here are 5 years to go before completion (nominal, but failing exams will cause delays). I know this because I tried (Mechanical Engineering MSc)...and failed. Done a step down from University to HBO (BSc) and was extremely disappointed by the poor quality. Finished it and never valued that diploma one bit. Never worked as a mechanical engineer...
So Ava, about student dorms, please tell me that the food in the student dining halls is free right?
not at the university Im at lol.
about the gap year end when you start your higher education, it's definitely not by default that 1st Bachelor students are 17-18yo. I'm saying this from a Belgian perspective, but I think you can extrapolate it to other European university. when I started my Hogeschool studies I was 21. I lost two years in highschool for medical reasons and did a 1 year SeNaSe. It: secundair na secundair, basically a one year education in the highschool itself to get you ready for the labour market if you chose not to go for higher education. The point is, eventhough I "wasted 3 years" in secondary school, I was by no means the oldest in my class. And since I was in a small art university, that class was 12 people, only a minority was 17 or 18 years old.
Wat ik mis .is de studie beurs ..Ook de ranking intern ..Goed te weten ..
what you mention about the lack of options of taking other classes that are not related to your major in the Netherlands is actually incorrect. You are registered in a university for one year and because of your major, there are specific courses you have to take if you want to advance in your studies. Meanwhile, you can still register and attend all of the courses that you want within the university. So in principle, you could just attend any course you want in any faculty, as long as there is space available for you. Cheers!
About getting into university, you forgot to talk about the part where there are different levels of high-school. Only the highest level will give you access to university. Only 18% of kids complete this level of high-school. I think this explains the difference, at least partially.
Alternatively you can get into universities after you complete the first year of the hbo. If you do the havo + 1 year hbo you are even the same age as those who go straight from vwo
Want job security? Become an electrician or plumber these jobs can’t be automated or send to China. And everyone needs you at some point in time.