Eric this video is so right down our lane of what we offer. I agree with your findings, nice work, we have seen the same thing where it can add low end torque or top end power or both, it just depends on each engine. With our system you can change the shape of the plenum floor in 5 minutes with the intake still on the engine, at the track or on the dyno, without any epoxy or welding, and it won't fall out. That's the patented system we use at Volcano Manifolds. You can also add wet or dry nitrous through the same interface. Your hand porting is impressive by the way, you could work your magic on one of our velocity inserts if you want, perhaps I can machine our interface in an intake for you to try out.
The Dial-a-Flow was unique in Oval Track. It was all drivability off the corner. Back then we made a few 'Stuffers' if you may, to watch the response. Oval Track is so much forward bite and momentum, not horsepower so to speak. For us, it was a plus on a Short Track. Now this would be an interesting study with today's manifolds.
The turtle decreases the turbulent column and low pressure area rising from the flat floor keeping the mist of fuel suspended. Also when the CSA on the runner decreased, this increased the flow speed in those ports to pull more air and fuel from the carb. When the engine revs to and above 6000, large plenum single plane starts to create a vortex under the carb, from the turbulent low pressure column. This vortex feeds the intake ports with slightly over pressurised rich mix, so you can pull the throttle back, and gain more momentum on high speeds(oval track), when you need to overtake or accelerate you then have a reserve throttle with slight booster left to push you forward. On a drag application, Ram Air is more efficient design.
Thank you so much for sharing with the community. This is so much part of giving back, and even though I am running turbo four-cylinder’s more than I run any sort of V8 I love your videos, and I purchased both Dyno mule manuals to hopefully continue your ability to test, wild things or anything and prove does or doesn’t work.
The guy who did the "Turtle" development for Brodix was Gene Dittmer....He also did most of the intake manifold designs on the early HVH Brodix intakes. The price of a "Turtle" for a Vitor Jr was about $120 in the days where a #2975 Victor Jr ran about $150....I think there might be some better results by doing a better blend from the plenum floor out into the rinner sections and also the "Dittmer Turtles" had distribution ditch grooves cut into them that probably improved the fuel distributon of the intake. I was also told the early #2975 Victor Jr's with the ribs in the air gap valley and provision for a pan evacuation fitting were worth around 6-7HP over the later versions....I think I still have an early #2975 in my storage....You can definatley see a diiference in the runner curve between the early and the late intakes.
I remember Turtles being tested extensively by Hot Rod magazine many years ago, the conclusion they came to was there was no set rule. Between all the variables of manifold design, turtle design and even cam used made it impossible to say Ya or Na to Turtles.
Enjoyed your review. Just a thought ... rather than a "Turtle" why not add a "Bullet" ? Saw another review that you did where you mentioned the AFR 4 Hole Taper Spacer and that it had increased power. That thought in mind and looking at the underside of the spacer you will see a bullet. So why not use the same idea and place a bullet on the floor of the manifold instead of the turtle? Just a thought.
I may be wrong, but I think Offenhauser called them turtles because the early ones had facets that made them look like the carapace of a turtle. They sold 'stuffers' in the 70's and 80's that could be used in their intakes. I think Wilson may have offered some too, but I'm not sure. Good video as usual.
You said that you used jb weld quik sticks for building the turtle. Have you ever been trying standard jb weld or the kwik version for something like that? Are they behaving different? Over here, its difficult to get the hands on other stuff than standard jb weld Thanks for your content, i really appreciate every of your videos.
Quick Sticks are the consistency of Clay. The other JB Welds are like Thick Pancake Batter. So it would be difficult to make a Turtle from them unless you made an upside down mold first, and put the JB Weld into it. Let it flow into place, let it harden, remove from the mold, and then use JB Weld to glue it in place.
Interesting. Hey you mentioned you dont do low RPM numbers. If you aiming for racing numbers that makes sense. But average person watching your videos isnt going to have an egine that spins over 6500 RPMs without the bottom end coming apart. Just food for thought.. Your likely to get more people interested in engines that perform better in the 2500-5500 RPM range for Street and Strip use.
If there was a smaller cam fitted, say 220@.050 then the dyno operator would of started the pull earlier. Eric has a 260@.050 cam fitted, which is going to make power at a much higher rpm. Its pointless to start a pull under 3500 rpm with a cam that big. You wouldn't select that cam and fit it to your towing rig. I do agree with your comment regarding what rpm most people drive in. I guess another round of testing with a more streetable cam would be interesting. Something more suited to dual plane manifolds.
@@thomasward4505 I have built about a dozen engines. From my experience the stock cam isnt always the best. It may be the safe choice, but best isnt the word I would use. Most stock cams are about a 249 adv dur and will smother out about 4500 RPMs. GM did put a few bigger cams in some engines. For example there was a 268 adv dur cam in some early Corvettes with a 350. Which wasnt a bad cam and what I put in one of my cars. But for most uses, I find myself sticking to around 270 adv dur cams. But that also depends on what drive train would have been running. Need to take in account the tire size, rear end ratio, O/D ratio (if using a overdrive trans) and car weight. At least if its a daily driver anyway. If its a weekend hotrod, then YOLO it! Helped a friend build a 383 stroker for his S10 pickup and we put a 292 from Lunati in it. Forgot the specs on it. Been 30 years ago. But since that pickup was so light, it worked great.
@@thomasward4505😂😂 not true at all. There is a reason the are aftermarket towing cams. Most stock cams suck in every single way. They are made to be cheap. Not good.
Wasn't power down on all manifolds in the second session? Which would mean it had even better gains then showed in the graph and possibly made about the same exact horsepower?
The turtle system looks better suited to dirt and circle track use for acceleration out of the corners. It doesn't seem suited to bracket racing at all.
I am still trying to understand why all these test where done on a cylinder head that would be maxed out on a 350 cubic inch engine .How is any of the intake manifold data test correct if the engine is struggling for air
Its still correct there are many 406sbc running a 195cc head. Don't worry though many of these tests will be repeated with a larger head. Then you should see some differences. Having more information is the goal.
Hey I kow you do not like expoxy in heads, how ever could you do a video on filling port roof and or port floor on some jun heads to see what they do for flow and maybe put on the Test Engine?
@@RadRidesByCru Really? Which one do you want. I stock all of the holley ones at work, and the fast systems also. The problem with holley, is quality control and getting things back in a timely matter under warranty (6 to 8 weeks)
@@johnnyyuma9326 Was a Sniper kit, searched a couple weeks and found a shop online with one on the shelf. I agree about Holley's quality control, it's really subpar. How long have the Dial-a-Flows been out of stock?
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Eric this video is so right down our lane of what we offer. I agree with your findings, nice work, we have seen the same thing where it can add low end torque or top end power or both, it just depends on each engine. With our system you can change the shape of the plenum floor in 5 minutes with the intake still on the engine, at the track or on the dyno, without any epoxy or welding, and it won't fall out. That's the patented system we use at Volcano Manifolds. You can also add wet or dry nitrous through the same interface. Your hand porting is impressive by the way, you could work your magic on one of our velocity inserts if you want, perhaps I can machine our interface in an intake for you to try out.
Cool .I would like to see Eric experiment with yours.
send me one of the intakes ill give it a port job and modify it and send it back, my air gap is impressive
The Dial-a-Flow was unique in Oval Track. It was all drivability off the corner. Back then we made a few 'Stuffers' if you may, to watch the response. Oval Track is so much forward bite and momentum, not horsepower so to speak. For us, it was a plus on a Short Track. Now this would be an interesting study with today's manifolds.
The turtle decreases the turbulent column and low pressure area rising from the flat floor keeping the mist of fuel suspended. Also when the CSA on the runner decreased, this increased the flow speed in those ports to pull more air and fuel from the carb. When the engine revs to and above 6000, large plenum single plane starts to create a vortex under the carb, from the turbulent low pressure column. This vortex feeds the intake ports with slightly over pressurised rich mix, so you can pull the throttle back, and gain more momentum on high speeds(oval track), when you need to overtake or accelerate you then have a reserve throttle with slight booster left to push you forward. On a drag application, Ram Air is more efficient design.
Thank you so much for sharing with the community. This is so much part of giving back, and even though I am running turbo four-cylinder’s more than I run any sort of V8 I love your videos, and I purchased both Dyno mule manuals to hopefully continue your ability to test, wild things or anything and prove does or doesn’t work.
This was a result I didn't see coming. It is interesting. Typically opens up 1 million more questions. 🤔
Always learning something from every video Thanks Eric
The guy who did the "Turtle" development for Brodix was Gene Dittmer....He also did most of the intake manifold designs on the early HVH Brodix intakes. The price of a "Turtle" for a Vitor Jr was about $120 in the days where a #2975 Victor Jr ran about $150....I think there might be some better results by doing a better blend from the plenum floor out into the rinner sections and also the "Dittmer Turtles" had distribution ditch grooves cut into them that probably improved the fuel distributon of the intake. I was also told the early #2975 Victor Jr's with the ribs in the air gap valley and provision for a pan evacuation fitting were worth around 6-7HP over the later versions....I think I still have an early #2975 in my storage....You can definatley see a diiference in the runner curve between the early and the late intakes.
Great on street daily drivers as a compromise.. anything else not so much. Great content as always!
quick tip: isopropyl alcohol works better than water for spreading out the JB weld.
Wax an grease remover works well too
Volcano manifolds work very well. Especially on large plenum intakes
The Turtle may decrease the plenum volume, but it increases mixture velocity at lower RPM levels, increasing torque, which was shown on your overlays.
Thinking about adding some homemade turtles to my cross ram big block Chevy edelbrock intake to help flat floor fuel issues.
Butler Performance sells cast aluminum turtles, part numbers BRO-DT-105 & 106 for welding or epoxying in.
I remember Turtles being tested extensively by Hot Rod magazine many years ago, the conclusion they came to was there was no set rule. Between all the variables of manifold design, turtle design and even cam used made it impossible to say Ya or Na to Turtles.
I'll say this once
🐢 Turtle Power ⚡
Thank you for your knowledge USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸
Enjoyed your review. Just a thought ... rather than a "Turtle" why not add a "Bullet" ? Saw another review that you did where you mentioned the AFR 4 Hole Taper Spacer and that it had increased power. That thought in mind and looking at the underside of the spacer you will see a bullet. So why not use the same idea and place a bullet on the floor of the manifold instead of the turtle? Just a thought.
It made more torque at 4500 and only
Lost very little on top
I will take the torque all day
I saw the improvement with the turtle in your V.E., specifically at and below peak torque.
I remember when these first came out I thought it was a good idea at the time.
I may be wrong, but I think Offenhauser called them turtles because the early ones had facets that made them look like the carapace of a turtle. They sold 'stuffers' in the 70's and 80's that could be used in their intakes. I think Wilson may have offered some too, but I'm not sure. Good video as usual.
It's always interesting how a thing called a Turtle is used to make something go faster. What with Turtles having a reputation for being slow. 🤔😁
You said that you used jb weld quik sticks for building the turtle.
Have you ever been trying standard jb weld or the kwik version for something like that?
Are they behaving different?
Over here, its difficult to get the hands on other stuff than standard jb weld
Thanks for your content, i really appreciate every of your videos.
Quick Sticks are the consistency of Clay. The other JB Welds are like Thick Pancake Batter. So it would be difficult to make a Turtle from them unless you made an upside down mold first, and put the JB Weld into it. Let it flow into place, let it harden, remove from the mold, and then use JB Weld to glue it in place.
You can still buy cast turtles
I wonder if welding the runner top on the outside and raising the roofs back up would help to gain power higher up and keep it at lower rpm.
Maybe and I might try it some day.
Actual data on RUclips….are you nuts??? Thank you for this content, Neil
Thank you Eric.
joe mondello came up with that and showed it worked
The legend
Interesting. Hey you mentioned you dont do low RPM numbers. If you aiming for racing numbers that makes sense. But average person watching your videos isnt going to have an egine that spins over 6500 RPMs without the bottom end coming apart. Just food for thought.. Your likely to get more people interested in engines that perform better in the 2500-5500 RPM range for Street and Strip use.
That’s not what I meant. I meant I don’t have him start a pull at 3000rpm because it is pointless unless you are a diesel.
If there was a smaller cam fitted, say 220@.050 then the dyno operator would of started the pull earlier. Eric has a 260@.050 cam fitted, which is going to make power at a much higher rpm. Its pointless to start a pull under 3500 rpm with a cam that big. You wouldn't select that cam and fit it to your towing rig. I do agree with your comment regarding what rpm most people drive in. I guess another round of testing with a more streetable cam would be interesting. Something more suited to dual plane manifolds.
@@WeingartnerRacing racing not cruising!
@@thomasward4505 I have built about a dozen engines. From my experience the stock cam isnt always the best. It may be the safe choice, but best isnt the word I would use. Most stock cams are about a 249 adv dur and will smother out about 4500 RPMs. GM did put a few bigger cams in some engines. For example there was a 268 adv dur cam in some early Corvettes with a 350. Which wasnt a bad cam and what I put in one of my cars. But for most uses, I find myself sticking to around 270 adv dur cams. But that also depends on what drive train would have been running. Need to take in account the tire size, rear end ratio, O/D ratio (if using a overdrive trans) and car weight. At least if its a daily driver anyway. If its a weekend hotrod, then YOLO it! Helped a friend build a 383 stroker for his S10 pickup and we put a 292 from Lunati in it. Forgot the specs on it. Been 30 years ago. But since that pickup was so light, it worked great.
@@thomasward4505😂😂 not true at all. There is a reason the are aftermarket towing cams. Most stock cams suck in every single way. They are made to be cheap. Not good.
Great test, well done
Thank you.
How high did you make the turtle? Are we talking 1/2"-3/4"?
I wonder what happens with efi instead
generations later people who have you tube channels will have a third arm to easily captivate audiences
Wasn't power down on all manifolds in the second session? Which would mean it had even better gains then showed in the graph and possibly made about the same exact horsepower?
They were down 2hp if that but made the exact same in session 3
I like turtles. 😛
The turtle system looks better suited to dirt and circle track use for acceleration out of the corners. It doesn't seem suited to bracket racing at all.
Right on
Your not Superman, but these are really interesting data. Thanks for the knowledge
I am still trying to understand why all these test where done on a cylinder head that would be maxed out on a 350 cubic inch engine .How is any of the intake manifold data test correct if the engine is struggling for air
Its still correct there are many 406sbc running a 195cc head. Don't worry though many of these tests will be repeated with a larger head. Then you should see some differences. Having more information is the goal.
@@WeingartnerRacing All data is good data
Would be great if you could make some that you could swap from one intake to another
Each intake is so different that it would not respond the same.
We offer exactly that, and Eric is correct, every engine is different, that's the benefit of being able to change it in 5 minutes.
@@WeingartnerRacing I understand. Thanks for the video.
@@volcanomanifolds I understand. It would be cool to see yours. Thanks
this turtle is fairly small
Nice big glob of "TURTLE"?
Big deal
On circle tracks when allowed
Done alot of em. Taller too on 4412 stuff
Restarts restarts
Brodix still makes them. And you say turtle, like teenage mutant turtle, with a Brooklyn accent. Epoxy is not a turtle
Epoxy is not as good as it was 5 years ago, it doesn't stand any heat.
That "Turtle" looks terrible !!!!
Hey I kow you do not like expoxy in heads, how ever could you do a video on filling port roof and or port floor on some jun heads to see what they do for flow and maybe put on the Test Engine?
I did that on the internet port heads video series on a set of ls3 heads.
Offy used to have the "dial a flow" manifold. I wish I could find one
Are Summit Racing and Speedway Motors hiding them from you?
@@RadRidesByCru Try ordering one!
@@johnnyyuma9326 No different than Holley, availability of injection systems is like playing wack-a-mole for money!
@@RadRidesByCru Really? Which one do you want. I stock all of the holley ones at work, and the fast systems also. The problem with holley, is quality control and getting things back in a timely matter under warranty (6 to 8 weeks)
@@johnnyyuma9326 Was a Sniper kit, searched a couple weeks and found a shop online with one on the shelf. I agree about Holley's quality control, it's really subpar. How long have the Dial-a-Flows been out of stock?
U fucker I was hopein ud test the brodix turtle in thare but I appreciate the time and effort for science anyhow but keep swinging wrentches man
Thanks for watching
🐢