I am Catholic, I see why it can sound strange that we ask dead people for their prayer. The thing though is that from our perspective when a person goes to heaven they are not really dead but rather more alive than even we on earth are. So then we have all these holy people sitting infront of the throne of God worshipping Him, we believe we can ask the Saint through God in His mercy. The Saint can pray for all these people because they in Heaven do not have our material limitation, and if God wills it all is possible. We don't think this is neccesary for salvation or anything, but it is written that the prayers of the righteous are efficacious so who is better to ask for prayer than the faithful departed? With confession, for it to be valid the person confessing has to be sincere. This is because it is God's authority forgiving you not the Priest's, God will not be tricked. One is correct in saying that the Priest is absolving the sin since he is acting in the person of Christ, but it is God who truly is the one forgiving you.
Hey Connor, appreciate the info! I guess that is the issue we misunderstood due to our islamic beliefs. In islam, we believe people that pass away are not in heaven or hell. They are simply in the grave awaiting the day of judgement, where Allah/God will when deal with us. So if the Catholic belief is that saints directly go to heaven I can see why that would make sense. Can you please share any information on why you guys believe Saints to directly to heaven? Do all righteous people go directly to heaven or just saints? And what makes one a saint anyways? What about day of judgement in Christianity? Just curious since this issue seems very different from our Muslim viewpoint. Thanks for respectful comment, very useful to us and everyone to learn and understand each other better. -Hamza
@@MuslimMindsUS Another random Catholic here. We believe that Christ judges each person immediately upon their death (also called the Particular Judgement). If they die outside of friendship with God (i.e. they are in a state of mortal sin) then their souls go to Hell. If they die in friendship with God they either go straight to Heaven, or make a pit stop in Purgatory to receive extra purification on the way (since nothing impure can enter Heaven). Purgatory is always temporary, and anyone who goes there is destined for Heaven. Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are all outside of time so 'how long' someone is there is more of a metaphor. At the end of time we believe Christ will return in glory to deliver the General Judgement, where His particular judgements are made fully known to all so that the full justice and mercy of God is revealed. Anyone who is still alive at the time would also get judged at this point. This also coincides with the bodily resurrection of the dead - all of the souls in Heaven and Hell receive their glorified bodies (along with anyone still alive on Earth). If I recall correct there's no more need for Purgatory after the final judgement. Technically anyone who is in Heaven (other than God) is a saint. The folks the church names as saints officially are those who provide us examples of extraordinary virtue in their lives, but we also recognize that there are innumerable saints whose names we do not know. Because the souls of the faithful departed are present with God in Heaven, we believe that we can ask them for their intercession in a similar way to how we ask our friends here on Earth to pray for us. But since they are in Heaven, their prayers are more powerful. Saints have no power of their own and anything attributed to them (miracles etc.) happen through God's power. At it's core, prayer to saints is an application of the belief that since Christ has conquered death, our bonds to each other, through Christ and his Church, do not end with our own deaths and that we can continue to pray with and for our brothers and sisters.
@@MuslimMindsUS In Catholicism all people either go to heaven, purgatory or hell. Purgatory being for people who die without serious sin but with lesser sin or a tendency towards sin as a way to have their impurity purged so that they may be worthy to be in God's presence in heaven. Technically all people who have reached heaven are "Saints" but some people (about 11 000 now) who lived very holy lives or were killed for their Faith have gotten recognition as canonised Saints. The process of canonisation is quite rigorous but it includes that two miracles must happen by the petition of the Saint. So the Vatican investigates miracle claims and determines their authenticity. After the whole process the Church by the authority of Jesus through His apostles declares it infallibly that the person has reached salvation. It should be said that there is a little bit more to the cult of Saints than asking for their prayer. There is an aspect of giving respect and honour. It is reasoned that if a person on earth who is in rank above us deserves respect, how much more honour and respect does not a person in front of God's throne deserve?
@@MuslimMindsUS from what I know about Catholism every person that goes to heaven is a Saint, but the officially recognised (canonised) saints are those people the Catholic Church knows are in heaven. If you asked for intercession from any dead Catholic, that guy might not be in heaven. I think to be a Saint you have to have been a good Catholic and to have had appearances or miracles associated with you after your death, the church then makes the decision to have that person canonised as a Saint. The theological reason why you can pray to a Saint but still be a monotheist is that you send your prayer to the Saint and because the Saint is close to God he can more easily send it to God. I was raised protestant and the problem I had with intercession of saints is why does God need you to play telephone with him? Is he hard of hearing? Surely he'd hear every prayer as soon as you make it, he is after all, according to Catholic teaching, inside every Catholic as the Holy spirit. Jesus is also said to be the intercessor in the bible. He is also all knowing and all powerful according to the Bible and Catholic teaching. So how can the Saint possibly help? Intercession of saints is also not biblical. I think the origin of the practice is from the Greek and roman heroe cults. In the Roman empire you could pray to the gods via heroes like Perseus, Heracles, Alexander. Also the imperial cults were big, where you could worship the roman emperors, but only once the died.
Catholic teaching doesn’t specify that she didn’t die. It simply says she was assumed at the end of her earthly life, which obviously leaves open the possibility of bodily death.
Hello Schmul Goldstein, can you clarify what you mean by "assumed"? Assumed Mary died? So you are saying Catholics believe she "maybe" died an earthly death or "maybe" didn't? Thanks for the comment, looking forward to any clarification! -Hamza
@@MuslimMindsUS in this case it means she was taken up into heaven with body and soul, sorry I should have clarified since it is an unusual use of the word. The official teaching says: „We proclaim and define it to be a dogma revealed by God that the immaculate Mother of God, Mary ever virgin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven.“ There isn’t a definite teaching on whether or not she died or not at the end of her earthly life, so some Catholics might believe she died and some might not. Since I understand and respect the objection, I just wanted to clarify that there is no „Catholic“ teaching on whether she died or not and it is open to debate. Sometimes Protestants misrepresent our faith, many times due to mere misunderstandings, so I think it is important to clear things up. Best wishes, I am enjoying the content.
@@MuslimMindsUS This all has to do with the dogma of the immaculate conception, the dogma that holds, that her holiness, the Blessed Virgin Mary was without original sin from the moment of her conception by holy and righteous Saint Anna. Now, the belief that Mary was assumed (taken up) into heaven at the end of her life has 2 names depending on their traditions. In the West (Catholic) it's called the Assumption of the Mary, while in the East (Orthodox) we call it the "Dormition of the Theotokos" (Theotokos being Mother of God). The Dormition holds that Mary, upon "FALLING ASLEEP" (Dormition) was assumed (taken up) into heaven, body and soul, in all of her glory. The subject whether she physically died is up for the individual believer.
In terms of why a priest can listen to confessional and pray With us to God for the forgiveness of sins, is very scriptural: John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” So it is scriptural that Jesus did tell his apostles to go out to people, and this is why in catholicism we have gift of confessional. Jesus did not say "Only while I am here you can go out and forgive sins... no his speech is eternal and to a specific people... the apostles. In the Catholic Church we say the Fathers are in succession to the apostles and hence since only they can baptise, therefore they have the authority Christ gave them to accept confession. So it's very simple, and I don't believe any verse in the bible refutes this account that Jesus told his disciples to go out and help the people repent of sins and through the Holy Spirit acting therein forgiveness ensues. Of course in the Confessional there are prayers that the person uses to promise not to sin again or at least do their very best not to. We are human, temptations arise all the time.. we all fall short of the Glory of God... So understand that In confession, you have the priest present who listens and prays WITH you , but you always have God listening and the priest as witness.... This is a powerful thing psychologically to say it out loud what you have done ... its easy to fool ourselves in our own presence to repent ... to God... but when another human who lives the gospel as a full time job and life listening in as well is a totally different psychological effect and you better then be sure to since confessing to God and his representative (priest = Apostle/disciple) to do better and have a more powerful vow in the heart to try to stop sin. In Catholicism, we do say it's only Gods Grace and through that we are saved and forgiven when true repentance is in the heart.... We do not judge what God can or Cannot do... we are human we can't know that, but Catholic faith does say that a beautiful gift of confession Jesus gave us in the scripture above makes sure we actually confess in person and be true about it since we have to voice it openly and not say it silently... this is much more powerful. We trust Jesus the most. You need to go to confession to have the experience and truly understand the Priests role in forgiveness... Then you will see it's not the priests power as a man to forgive , but it's by him being a witness and given authority to forgive in Jesus name, through Holy Spirit. This is important, it's not the priest himself or any power he has to forgive.
Ok, again, not Catholic (in fact in my Protestant youth I used to be fiercely anti-catholic lol), but I think this guy misrepresented Catholic teaching around forgiveness. The priest according to Catholic doctrine I believe does not have the power to forgive sins in his own right, but has the power to declare God's forgiveness, after a person has confessed and repented. Which for Catholics is an important distinction.
Hey Tomorrow We Live, isn’t the power to declare Gods forgiveness essentially the same as having the power to forgive? I’m not understanding the distinction? -Hamza
To address your question about Martin Luther and departure from Catholic doctrine, I'd refer you to a book entitled "Here I Stand," a biography of Martin Luther. The whole origin of the protestant reformation can be traced to the advent of the Gutenberg press and the Gutenberg bible. Prior to this, only the priests had the ability to read the scriptures. All other believers were dependent on the church leadership to interpret the scriptures to them. In fact, to this day, many Catholics are discouraged from reading the scriptures for themselves (presumably because that would usurp power from the priests, bishops, and Pope.) Anyway, Luther was a very devout guy. A friar, then priest and theologian. And being a friar in those days involved doing penances for sins by doing such things as walking across a chapel floor on one's knees on top of ground glass to show one's contrition. Sin could only be forgiven through punishment. But when Luther began to read the scriptures for himself, he couldn't find a reference to support this practice, or to support many other teachings of the church at that time. Especially the whole thing of the "intermediaries" (Mary, the Saints, etc., I believe he considered to be idolatry.). He began to document the inconsistencies between the church's teachings and what he understood the scriptures to be saying. He listed them out into 95 theses on a piece of parchment which he nailed onto the church door in 1519. He also sent a copy to Rome, and was subsequently excommunicated. This act is universally accepted to be the act that spawned the protestant reformation (starting with Lutheranism, which emphasized "grace," or forgiveness as a result of faith alone) and the resulting split into all the confusing sects that resulted over the subsequent centuries. So pre Martin Luther = church doctrine spoon fed to the believers. Post Martin Luther = read the text and decide for yourself. Pray directly to God. And I appreciate your discussions.
Appreciate the video trying to understand Christianity. So no Catholics are certainly not prevented reading scripture … that’s a fallacy, long ago a town might have only 1 Bible , back in the day being incredibly expensive …. And when printing press came about all Catholics and Protestants could own bibles …. So it’s incorrect , Catholicism is entirely built upon us followers to read scripture and prepare for the next lords day being Sunday readings … yes we have magisterium who interpret scripture various ways we can always speak i the Decons or father of parish if we don’t understand scripture we get a decent explanation and interpretation… rather than making incorrect personal interpretation that might even be different to another church brother … one needs to be learned about the culture , times and people to understand scripture … but point is no Catholics can ready any Bible they like there is no restriction don’t be fooled .
Hey Kerry, thank you very much for the comment and supporting our discussion to learn more about Christianity! And thanks for the info and book recommendation, may look into it soon 😁 -Hamza
I'm not Catholic but as I understand it Papal Infallibility has less to do with a 'state' in which he makes a pronouncement and is more of an 'area' (Catholic doctrine) which he makes a pronouncement on. It doesn't apply to just any random thing the Pope says, only to matters of theology. So they believe when the Pope makes an official pronouncement 'ex cathedra' i.e. from the throne or in his official capacity as Pope, on a matter of Church teaching, God will so guide him as to preserve him from making an error. IIRC like the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and Bodily Assumption of Mary, Papal Infallibility only became official Catholic doctrine relatively recently, in the 19th century, as a response to the challenges to the church from secularism, liberalism, materialism and modernism and so on at the time. It's this kind of thing Protestants are talking about when they talk about Catholic traditions being 'innovations' added on to the Scripture over the centuries. It's why many Protestants are innately hostile to anything 'traditional'.
Thanks Tomorrow We Live on the explanation of the papal infallibility, definitely a beneficial read! I enjoy learning from your comments and information! -Hamza
Hey, I love your video. I am a Catholic, very Traditionalist. I can tell you this video you showed misrepresents Catholicism. Many mistakes: First of all, The Bible (New Testament) was NOT formally put together (we call it canon) but until 367 DC, It was made a book/bible by a catholic Bishop from Alejandria. This is precisely the reason why we treasure Tradition. Becuase at the beginning of The Church, there were no written "bibles". Only Oral Tradition and Old testament.
This is why I said the scripture is considered a part of catholic tradition itself because it arose from the tradition and history of the early church -Rohaib
@@MuslimMindsUS not really true. Firstly "catholic" means universal. For gjr 1st 1000 years that includes both modern Catholicism and also eastern Orthodoxy. 2nd, the early letters even of the apostles qoute from "scripture". For example in the letter to Timothy, Paul qoutes the work of Luke as "scripture". And the early church fathers who didn't even think of Roman Catholicism since it didn't exist as it does today- they affirm and qoute from the new testament. The books were already in circulation and the pre nicea consensus was ATLEAST the 4 gospels, Acts, and the letters of Paul- and then some differences on what other books they thought were canonical. Then eventually the church settled in 300Ad on the cannon of St Athanasius who refuted the heretical notion of Arianism and the unitarian view of God. The council didn't discuss the cannon, they merely adopted which was basically agreed on already. And the books we have today came from apostles and their associates. Not from "the catholic church". A true definition of today's Roman catholic church in any case comes from post 1054Ad
@@TheCathodox Please dont feel "excluded" in my comment. Yes, we were ONE. Eastern and Western Churches. We were one for hundreads of years. We Catholics love our eastern Brothers. We consider you guys an apostolic tradition. And we share many important dogmas. We even fought together in the Cruzades. Many of your Saints are our Saints. Church fathers are obviously the same. You dont need to deny our Tradition. History is behind us Catholics, many friends in (Eastern) Orthodox Church love us and respect us, and agree on many important subjects. USA Orthodox Church are the ones I notice some hating on Catholic Church, perhaps bc many are new converts from Protestantism.
Quite late as I've only just seen this video pop up in my recommendations, but being that I am a Reformed Protestant I would like to comment on what you guys say circa 18:22. You are quite right that Protestants don't believe that salvation only requires a mere intellectual assent, we in fact do believe that good works are necessary for salvation. So then you ask what actually is the difference in what we, Orthodox Protestants, and the Romanists believe? It's a good question and you're not gonna find a lot of folks, at a pop level at least, that fully understand it. The issue is further complicated because at a pop level there are some ignorant "Protestants" (though I wouldn't call them that, but that's neither here nor there) that actually do believe in only a mere intellectual assent being necessary for salvation, an egregious error of the antinomians, and ignorant Romanists that think scripture mentioning the necessity of good works debunks the Protestant doctrine of Sola Fide (Faith Alone) when we agree that good works are necessary. So for Protestants when we talk about being saved by faith alone we are talking about *justification* in the ordo salutis (order of salvation) and specifically our differences have to do with the *formal cause* of justification. We believe that the formal cause of our justification is the the imputation of Christ's righteousness onto the believer, meaning that the righteous status that we receive before God is the righteousness of Christ, where God imputes the merits and obedience of Christ onto the believer and this is apprehended by faith. The Romanists understand this differently, they understand that the formal cause of justification is the inherent righteousness of the believer. In their system faith is formed by the supernatural virtue of charity and works further are believed by them to be meritorious. We do acknowledge with them that God indeed infuses righteousness onto the believer, but we deny that God's act of infusing grace onto us is the cause by which man is constituted justified. To simplify: We say that the formal cause of our justification is the perfect righteousness of our Lord which is made ours by the gift of God. The Romanists say that the formal cause of justification is the righteousness that inheres in us, and by inhering in us, makes us worthy of eternal life. So I would hope this helps you understand the differences that we have with the Romanists on this matter. Before ending a couple of things I want to comment on; I think it should be noted that the maker of the video, while I don't know for sure, they seem to either be an Evangelical or come from an Evangelical background and seem to make some mistakes because of that. For instance, no Confessional Protestants would refer to their view of the Eucharist as being "Consubstantiation", the most prevalent views would be the Lutheran view of Sacramental Union or the Reformed/Anglican view of Real Spiritual Presence. I'm not going to explain those views, but do note that the information there in the video wasn't very precise. I would however want to comment on your claim that there are parables of Osiris where Osiris refers to bread and wine and his body and blood, I would love to see a source for that. There are also some issues with the section on authority because again, the maker of the video seems to either be an Evangelical or they have that as their background so that's informing their view of the role of the Church in Protestantism as being very weak and individualistic. For Confessional Protestants we do grant that the Church has teaching authority and the ability to decide controversies, but on the basis of the infallible organ of scripture. Which poses issues later because they then state that Protestants hold the view that only scripture is authoritative, but that is.... just wrong, we believe scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith, but we don't dismiss the tradition of the Church. Long comment I know, but I hope it was somewhat informative.
One thing I will point out is that there is also a strong tradition of saints (wali) and veneration of them and visiting their graves/shrines in Islam as well. Similar to in Christianity, they're holy people who can do miracles and are venerated after their death and even invoked with prayers and have intercessory power. It's particularly connected to Sufism and Shiism but apparently in the Mediaeval era belief in Saints was considered a requirement of Sunni orthodoxy. Even today it's very widespread though this is more connected to what's termed 'folk Islam' than what you would probably consider proper Islamic practice. In many Islamic cultures, e.g. Morocco and North Africa there is even a tradition of saint families, whereby male children somehow inherit the sainthood of their ancestors and the 'baraka' (blessing) which people can obtain by touching them or even just being around them. So it's by no means something unique to Catholicism :)
Definitely not unique to Catholicism but main stream Islam does not encourage visiting holy figures especially those who have died for blessings. Shiaism and other branches do and the main body of Islam open criticizes this and even go so far as to accuse these groups of copying other faith traditions with the veneration of saints. In Sunni Islam, all one has to believe about Saints is that they are holy people who earned favor with God, such as the prophets and messengers, as well as the noble companions of these messengers. Of course deviant practices can rise up over time this is what we believe happens generally to a faith tradition as it ages and innovation finds its way in. However the mainstream body of Islam has maintained consistency in avoiding the prayer towards or calling upon the dead for favor. -Rohaib
@@MuslimMindsUS I don't think this is true. It's why there is prayer for Muhammad and his descendants in Salat: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafa%27a Intercessory prayer has existed for a long time in Islam. Departing from this is the innovation.
@@kingmarlin5043 I don’t think the link you shared has anything to due with prayer. We as Muslims pray to God only 5 times a day, there is something else called Dua which is an invocation you can do at any time. It’s okay to ask other people to make Dua on your behalf, the dua is towards Allah/God though. The link you shared stated that what you are referring to some consider it haram and/or an innovation. Also, I don’t think Wikipedia is a great source to go to reference Islam or any religion probably. Is there another reference you have? Muslim pray FOR Muhammad (pbuh) to ask Allah/God. No mainstream Muslim is praying TO the prophet or the companions. Hope that clarifies -Hamza
Grateful for this video and truly appreciate and respect our brothers and sisters of Islam . I am Catholic and we truly do respect all religions , Mostly Protestant don’t accept or respect that all religions can be and are from God , we are not to judge . Most Protestants won’t ever say another religion is also true. Just wanted to get that out the way first , it’s in our catechism that we do love other religions as our family albeit we don’t practice them naturally but there is no issue between us. Very cool video debating from a outside perspective. You make some great points . Not biased . There is always more for all of us to learn and understand , always. I’ll respond a little more from Catholic perspective and personal view after fully watching again to comment in individual parts . ❤
@@edukaeshn Brother, The Catechism said in the catholic church. We are to respect all Religions even if we do not practice those religions but we are to be respectful of them. Why do you say Demons? Can you explain?
@@richarddeerflame Surely, you can provide a direct quote and would not make such an outrageous claim without direct evidence. Or do you have some reason to deceive?
@@edukaeshn Brother are you christian at all? Tell me your Faith? First and ill then show you in the Catechism where it says we respect other religions.
2. The Pope is infallible in very few instances. Rather than thinking of it as saying this is a truth it is actually pointing out what we can believe. This is has been used 2 times in total. It comes into play when Jesus hands the keys over to Peter and says Whatever you loose will be loosed on earth and what ever you bind will be bound on earth which echos King David in Isaiah. 3. John 6. Jesus continues to say that in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven you must eat of my body and drinking my blood. Jesus being the lamb would be a sacrifice. In order to come into communion with God you must eat of the lamb. In order for there to be peace among the ancient israelites they would often have a sacrifice (an unblemished lamb) and then eat of the flesh among two peoples to ease tensions. 4. Praying to saints. In Tobit we read of St. Raphael reminding Tobia that he put his prayer in front of the father meaning that the saints will put our prayers in front of God. We also see in Revelations that the angels and saints are offering incense to the Father. The people who are in Heaven are still praying. An argument would be that we do not need prayers or to pray for our loved ones then. We would say as Catholics that you can pray for others on earth and the same would go in heaven. Our God is a God of the living and not of the Dead because we believe Jesus Conquered death. They don't exist within time and exist in eternity. 5. The Bible isn't under the church. It was put together by the Church. We didn't have a bible handed to us until 400 years later. The protestants believe in their own belief but the Church put together the Bible because there were inconsistent books being used and they finally decided we need to have a set number of books. 6. I don't really ever get into this topic but it's always interesting. 7. James says faith without works is dead. Your works are necessary because Jesus doesn't ever say come believe in me he says come follow me. It is your acts of believing. We didn't earn salvation but to stay in union with salvation we must not act against the masters will. Luke 12 highlights this point. 8. Catholics also believe that we are all considered priests, prophets, and kings. We still believe that there are still priests that Jesus put in charge of the flock. If the whole flock were to be priests then there wouldn't be a flock. The priests are representatives of Gods divine mercy who will forgive us if we are truly contrite of heart but if you are not trully sorry than you will not be forgive. The priest is also a representative of the Church. 9. “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2). “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us” (2 Thess. 3:6). “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15). 10. I'm not the best at arguing these points but most of these have been fleshed out by other people. Born without sin - Mary is the new ark of the Covenant because Jesus is God made flesh. IN order to understand Mary you need to read the foreshadowing in the Old testament.
In terms of Mary being without sin. A interesting topic ensues. We think carefully here, in scripture we are not told Mary ever did sin. So scripturally we cannot say she is a sinner based on her being the vessel of our Lord and who The Angel came to her to say "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God". So how does one find favour with God? Consider this carefully.... the way to find favour with God is through not sinning and being virtuous. Now This is a one time event. Only to Mary did Jesus get born to , this has a HUGE implication right. Not just any woman. Why Mary. This is why, for a pure spirit of Jesus Christ to live inside and grow in a pure manner means that Mary certainly was without sin. This is not difficult to understand. Us humans are really funny. We often think, since I sin... well everyone else is a sinner... This is true to a certain degree.... However when present with scripture and with this Woman who an angel Came to and said "you have found favour with God"... this means something more than just... oh you are a good person you TRY not to sin. Do you see why we then move to the idea that For the Lord to be born of Mary in such a way... is absolutely a Miracle. This just simply cannot happen to a true Sinner. The vessel would have to be immaculate. The counter argument is that Mary then calls Jesus her Saviour... people say well that proves she sinned. Does it ? really? Jesus came to show us Gods Face, to open a way for those who believe in him to ever lasting life. This is clear from christian perspective and scripture . So he is ultimately the Saviour of all Flesh and humans. This is very clear. Mary by saying that confirms Christ saves all flesh and is indeed a saviour for all sinner and non sinner alike. So now with the above said. Do you understand now why we come to the conclusion of Mary being without original Sin to prepare for the Absolute perfection to be Born on earth? This Is logically speaking why we see Mary in a beautiful light and she was the utmost Example of Obedience to God. UTMOST. So it's not an issue that we can see her as not having real heavy sin on her. This is after all GODS plan isn't it. God can do anything and therefore can allow a person to be born of virtue without Original sin if God Wills so.... who are we to say otherwise? Thankyou for letting me also share this since it's very simple, and not a heavy tradition. Traditions come from scripture and logical inspection of what is not said in scripture and even inspired through the Holy Spirit. We know that we can gain so much insight when the Holy Spirit remains in us... that is not said in a scripture verse however one can understand the verses and what is in between the lines . Mary no matter how you see her ... is special. And this being special is something that is special for eternity. A supreme Saint. Jesus on the cross said: Jesus, therefore, seeing his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing by, said to his mother: iWoman, behold thy son.; Then, he said to the disciple Behold thy mother.; And from that hour the disciple took her to his own (home). This very well-known text is one of the most important Marian passages in Scripture. that's why we see Mary as a mother. We are told she is spiritually to have been our mother as disciples in a spiritual manner. She is not anywhere close to Trinity But is certainly special. That's all.
Jeremiah found favor with God before he was born. It's not just about not sinning. Also the Mary loop of perfection needs perfection is flawed because now the perfect and sinless Mary is born from a sinner? Now your whole logic falls apart.
@@TheCathodox Not necessarily Blade. So Mary was Born to a sinner.. But not having the mark of Sin on her... There is no reason this can't happen... Only God knows and God has no limits. So that even if she was born to a Sinner, Mary was not the saviour yet her life could be without sin so the Saviour can be born. Understand? It's not impossible.
@@richarddeerflame Plus her mom was a saint. And she was conceived in a miraculous way (St.Ann was 80 years old). Anne promised God that she would dedicate her only child to the Lord's service. The couple then received a vision of an angel, who announced that Anne would conceive and bear a most wondrous child, Mary.
Two Protestant denominations have saints and "canonize" them, mainly the Anglicans/Episcopalians and Lutherans. By canonize I don't mean in the Catholic way, in which it takes years through a process for someone to become a saint (most of the time it takes a minimum of five years to start the process), but in the popular way in which there is a cultus built around a figure which grows bigger and bigger overtime (how Catholicism and Orthodoxy used to do saints).
Many protestants have a huge problem with the sacrament of confession, however its completely biblical so from their own stand (bible alone) they should accept this. The scripture for this is John 20:19-23 where it says --- "19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. 21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” --- Now we know that apostles handed down authority even from the bible, read books such as acts and the writtings of Paul to see this. Even moreso this is backed up through historical non biblical church sources such as the didache. This authority can not be universal (as some protestants claim we are all priest's), why? Because if this authority was given to us all, then our salvation would be put in jeopardy if someone we sinned against refused to forgive us. With regards to the knowledge of the priest in the confession, the priest can deny forgiveness if he feels the person is not sincere, this is very rare and only really happens if the person makes it obvious that they do not intend to repent of the sin they confessed. If the priest grants forgiveness, the sins are forgiven, but if the confessor conceals sins from the priest then the confession is invalid, it is on the Catholic to be honest in there, if he intentionally decives the priest then he has commited an additional sin. If however he unintentionally forgot a sin or didnt confess something properly then he is not at fault and his sin is still forgiven.
Another good video. I felt both of you were more objective than the guy you were watching. Although I am Catholic, I think Islam and to a lesser degree Judaism have an advantage of having their text in one language and tradition for keeping things pure. Christianity was very spread out and and in Latin + Greek before everything was organized. Part of the Orthodox Catholic split was from Latin and Greek language translation differences. Protestants I feel have a major issue because they just keep fragmenting and there is no tradition to prevent massive reinterpretation of the Religion. Additionally if they were to go back to an older version of Christianity it would logically be more similar in practice to Judaism and Islam. For example most Protestants believe in salvation through faith alone, but Judaism is mostly about how you act and Islam, Orthodox and Catholic all have some combination of Faith and doing good.
As for the faith vs good works, I have been told by many Protestants that salvation is by faith alone and they feel good works will come if faith good. But I don't feel it works that way in practice.
Hey Aaron, really appreciate the comment man! Yes, it seems Protestantism is more susceptible to changes in the faith that are not rooted in original Christianity. And yes, salvation we believe comes from faith firstly and then good works after. And just because you have faith, does not mean you cannot be punished in Islam. Which is why we constantly are repenting and expressing gratitude. Ideally anyways 😅 -Hamza
The thing about the Saints is strange in someway even for me, but the same question could be said about why God used the Apostles for example to heal the sick and not just heal them by Himself? I think this has something to do with being a part of the Mistical body of Christ, God wants to make us partecipate to His glory and plain of salvation and He wants us to love and have a relationship between our brothers too, so in this sense praying the Saints is a way to establish this love and relationship with other members of the Church that are already in paradise and in grace of God. Isn't necessary praying to the Saints, you can pray only to the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit obviously, but I think for Catholics Saints are an extra help, because are our brothers. I'm not Catholic but I find fascinating this concept of "Communion" in a sense where all of us in the Church are a part of the Mistical body of Christ and we are in a relationship cause of that.
@@MuslimMindsUS Its true. A interesting point being made. Jesus was never crowned king on earth ... However in Christianity he is king, So it stands to reason from a logical perspective that in the spirit, Queen would then be a word we could use to refer to Mother Mary since Kings are literally born of Queens. but look, I suppose anyone can within their faith be misguided, I know there may be Catholics, who make Mary their everything.... Their reasons for doing so might be many but the reasons are their own(not general Catholic thought ). The real Catholic Faith states that Jesus Christ is all. But if we say Queen, well it doesn't mean we deify her at all. It's probably a logical finding then since we say Jesus was King hence Mary queen. Yet We do feel loved by Mary for sure. Maybe often all disagreements are to do with Words in the world... and how we interpret words. yeah. Blessings Brother.
The protestant view of sin is not really that all is the same, i.e.: fornication is the same as saying a curse word. It's to be understood as "equal as in both lead to death" or absence of God. Because all sins in the eyes of God, are imperfect or unjust. They are different in a sense of the consequences you will experience. Therefore fornication is not the same as cursing, because it not only affects your mental and soul but also your body (1 Corinthians 6:18). Also what follows after a sin will vary depending on the sin, meaning that some sins can put you further away from God and reconciliation will be harder, like an addiction. Just like men and women, in Gods eyes there is no difference, but we are different in earthly matters (Galatians 3:28). I hope everything I wrote is understood, if others have different thoughts please write. As our strength in faith can grow in communion guided by God. Edit: Another way they can be same is, that there is no sin God can't forgive (John 19:30 when Jesus died on the cross forgiving all sins, Romans 5:20).
Hello, your comment does clarify a little bit on how all sins are imperfect, or sins at the end of the day. But from an Islamic perspective and I guess a Catholic perspective too, the main difference would be the weight of the sin itself. Not only is there that back-end effect like you mentioned on the consequences of the sin, but the sin itself we believe is weighted differently in the eyes of God/Allah. I hope I presented our view properly and correctly :) Thanks for the comment and info, very beneficial to try and learn from each other! -Hamza
Christ gave authority to the apostles on pentecost. That authority has been passed down to the current Pope to do things like adjust and change church law and scripture interpretation.
Revelation 12 1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman, robed with the sun, standing on the moon, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant, and in labour, crying aloud in the pangs of childbirth. 3 Then a second sign appeared in the sky: there was a huge red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, and each of the seven heads crowned with a coronet. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars from the sky and hurled them to the ground, and the dragon stopped in front of the woman as she was at the point of giving birth, so that it could eat the child as soon as it was born. 5 The woman was delivered of a boy, the son who was to rule all the nations with an iron sceptre, and the child was taken straight up to God and to his throne, 6 while the woman escaped into the desert, where God had prepared a place for her to be looked after for twelve hundred and sixty days. This is one place when you can find Mary as the Queen of Heaven. This portrayal of the Queen of Heaven is replacated in the Tilma which came about ofter her apparition to Juan DIego in Mexico.
the biblical support for the assumption of Mary comes from the book of revelations. Catholics regard Mary as the new Eve as well as the new ark of the covenant. the old ark contains the word of God (stone tablets) the bread of life (manna) and the symbol of a high priest (aaron's staff/rod) Mary contained in her womb Jesus, who is the Word of God, Bread of life and High Priest. in revelations the author see's the heavens open and in it he see's the ark of the covenant, immediately after that he see's a woman clothe with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars above her head. Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm. A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. (revelations 11:19 -- 12:1-2) of course the bible initially did not have chapters and verses and so these two verses were actually mean't to be read as one cohesive story.
Also from an orthodox perspective now, praying to the saints is Biblical and encouraged because they are witnessing. We have something called Theosis (to complex to explain here just research its intresting) in wich People Basecly strive to Become lower case gods by the grace of The God, gods in the sense of returning to the way adam was before the fall.
This intercession is actually more of an honoring of the prophet. God says in the Quran a few times that no one can’t intercede without Gods leave. But we don’t have to go to the prophet or call upon him or anyone else to have a direct connection with God through prayer.
@@MuslimMindsUS you dont have to ask the saits for intercession either. Its simply encouraged for prayer for a fellow Brother is always Good. We believe saints are as much part of the church as The living are. I simply wanted to point out that intercession from the dead is Not only taught in Christianity (catholicism and Orthodoxy)
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I am Catholic, I see why it can sound strange that we ask dead people for their prayer. The thing though is that from our perspective when a person goes to heaven they are not really dead but rather more alive than even we on earth are. So then we have all these holy people sitting infront of the throne of God worshipping Him, we believe we can ask the Saint through God in His mercy. The Saint can pray for all these people because they in Heaven do not have our material limitation, and if God wills it all is possible. We don't think this is neccesary for salvation or anything, but it is written that the prayers of the righteous are efficacious so who is better to ask for prayer than the faithful departed?
With confession, for it to be valid the person confessing has to be sincere. This is because it is God's authority forgiving you not the Priest's, God will not be tricked. One is correct in saying that the Priest is absolving the sin since he is acting in the person of Christ, but it is God who truly is the one forgiving you.
Hey Connor, appreciate the info!
I guess that is the issue we misunderstood due to our islamic beliefs. In islam, we believe people that pass away are not in heaven or hell. They are simply in the grave awaiting the day of judgement, where Allah/God will when deal with us. So if the Catholic belief is that saints directly go to heaven I can see why that would make sense.
Can you please share any information on why you guys believe Saints to directly to heaven? Do all righteous people go directly to heaven or just saints? And what makes one a saint anyways? What about day of judgement in Christianity?
Just curious since this issue seems very different from our Muslim viewpoint.
Thanks for respectful comment, very useful to us and everyone to learn and understand each other better.
-Hamza
@@MuslimMindsUS Another random Catholic here. We believe that Christ judges each person immediately upon their death (also called the Particular Judgement). If they die outside of friendship with God (i.e. they are in a state of mortal sin) then their souls go to Hell. If they die in friendship with God they either go straight to Heaven, or make a pit stop in Purgatory to receive extra purification on the way (since nothing impure can enter Heaven). Purgatory is always temporary, and anyone who goes there is destined for Heaven. Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are all outside of time so 'how long' someone is there is more of a metaphor.
At the end of time we believe Christ will return in glory to deliver the General Judgement, where His particular judgements are made fully known to all so that the full justice and mercy of God is revealed. Anyone who is still alive at the time would also get judged at this point. This also coincides with the bodily resurrection of the dead - all of the souls in Heaven and Hell receive their glorified bodies (along with anyone still alive on Earth). If I recall correct there's no more need for Purgatory after the final judgement.
Technically anyone who is in Heaven (other than God) is a saint. The folks the church names as saints officially are those who provide us examples of extraordinary virtue in their lives, but we also recognize that there are innumerable saints whose names we do not know. Because the souls of the faithful departed are present with God in Heaven, we believe that we can ask them for their intercession in a similar way to how we ask our friends here on Earth to pray for us. But since they are in Heaven, their prayers are more powerful. Saints have no power of their own and anything attributed to them (miracles etc.) happen through God's power.
At it's core, prayer to saints is an application of the belief that since Christ has conquered death, our bonds to each other, through Christ and his Church, do not end with our own deaths and that we can continue to pray with and for our brothers and sisters.
@@MuslimMindsUS In Catholicism all people either go to heaven, purgatory or hell. Purgatory being for people who die without serious sin but with lesser sin or a tendency towards sin as a way to have their impurity purged so that they may be worthy to be in God's presence in heaven. Technically all people who have reached heaven are "Saints" but some people (about 11 000 now) who lived very holy lives or were killed for their Faith have gotten recognition as canonised Saints.
The process of canonisation is quite rigorous but it includes that two miracles must happen by the petition of the Saint. So the Vatican investigates miracle claims and determines their authenticity. After the whole process the Church by the authority of Jesus through His apostles declares it infallibly that the person has reached salvation.
It should be said that there is a little bit more to the cult of Saints than asking for their prayer. There is an aspect of giving respect and honour. It is reasoned that if a person on earth who is in rank above us deserves respect, how much more honour and respect does not a person in front of God's throne deserve?
Well Said Brother
@@MuslimMindsUS from what I know about Catholism every person that goes to heaven is a Saint, but the officially recognised (canonised) saints are those people the Catholic Church knows are in heaven. If you asked for intercession from any dead Catholic, that guy might not be in heaven. I think to be a Saint you have to have been a good Catholic and to have had appearances or miracles associated with you after your death, the church then makes the decision to have that person canonised as a Saint. The theological reason why you can pray to a Saint but still be a monotheist is that you send your prayer to the Saint and because the Saint is close to God he can more easily send it to God. I was raised protestant and the problem I had with intercession of saints is why does God need you to play telephone with him? Is he hard of hearing? Surely he'd hear every prayer as soon as you make it, he is after all, according to Catholic teaching, inside every Catholic as the Holy spirit. Jesus is also said to be the intercessor in the bible. He is also all knowing and all powerful according to the Bible and Catholic teaching. So how can the Saint possibly help? Intercession of saints is also not biblical.
I think the origin of the practice is from the Greek and roman heroe cults. In the Roman empire you could pray to the gods via heroes like Perseus, Heracles, Alexander. Also the imperial cults were big, where you could worship the roman emperors, but only once the died.
Catholic teaching doesn’t specify that she didn’t die. It simply says she was assumed at the end of her earthly life, which obviously leaves open the possibility of bodily death.
Hello Schmul Goldstein, can you clarify what you mean by "assumed"? Assumed Mary died?
So you are saying Catholics believe she "maybe" died an earthly death or "maybe" didn't?
Thanks for the comment, looking forward to any clarification!
-Hamza
@@MuslimMindsUS in this case it means she was taken up into heaven with body and soul, sorry I should have clarified since it is an unusual use of the word. The official teaching says:
„We proclaim and define it to be a dogma revealed by God that the immaculate Mother of God, Mary ever virgin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven.“
There isn’t a definite teaching on whether or not she died or not at the end of her earthly life, so some Catholics might believe she died and some might not. Since I understand and respect the objection, I just wanted to clarify that there is no „Catholic“ teaching on whether she died or not and it is open to debate.
Sometimes Protestants misrepresent our faith, many times due to mere misunderstandings, so I think it is important to clear things up.
Best wishes, I am enjoying the content.
@@trosenthal3711 thanks for the clarification and happy you are enjoying the content!😁
-Hamza
@@MuslimMindsUS This all has to do with the dogma of the immaculate conception, the dogma that holds, that her holiness, the Blessed Virgin Mary was without original sin from the moment of her conception by holy and righteous Saint Anna. Now, the belief that Mary was assumed (taken up) into heaven at the end of her life has 2 names depending on their traditions. In the West (Catholic) it's called the Assumption of the Mary, while in the East (Orthodox) we call it the "Dormition of the Theotokos" (Theotokos being Mother of God). The Dormition holds that Mary, upon "FALLING ASLEEP" (Dormition) was assumed (taken up) into heaven, body and soul, in all of her glory. The subject whether she physically died is up for the individual believer.
In terms of why a priest can listen to confessional and pray With us to God for the forgiveness of sins, is very scriptural:
John 20:21
Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”
So it is scriptural that Jesus did tell his apostles to go out to people, and this is why in catholicism we have gift of confessional. Jesus did not say "Only while I am here you can go out and forgive sins... no his speech is eternal and to a specific people... the apostles. In the Catholic Church we say the Fathers are in succession to the apostles and hence since only they can baptise, therefore they have the authority Christ gave them to accept confession.
So it's very simple, and I don't believe any verse in the bible refutes this account that Jesus told his disciples to go out and help the people repent of sins and through the Holy Spirit acting therein forgiveness ensues. Of course in the Confessional there are prayers that the person uses to promise not to sin again or at least do their very best not to. We are human, temptations arise all the time.. we all fall short of the Glory of God...
So understand that In confession, you have the priest present who listens and prays WITH you , but you always have God listening and the priest as witness.... This is a powerful thing psychologically to say it out loud what you have done ... its easy to fool ourselves in our own presence to repent ... to God... but when another human who lives the gospel as a full time job and life listening in as well is a totally different psychological effect and you better then be sure to since confessing to God and his representative (priest = Apostle/disciple) to do better and have a more powerful vow in the heart to try to stop sin.
In Catholicism, we do say it's only Gods Grace and through that we are saved and forgiven when true repentance is in the heart.... We do not judge what God can or Cannot do... we are human we can't know that, but Catholic faith does say that a beautiful gift of confession Jesus gave us in the scripture above makes sure we actually confess in person and be true about it since we have to voice it openly and not say it silently... this is much more powerful. We trust Jesus the most.
You need to go to confession to have the experience and truly understand the Priests role in forgiveness... Then you will see it's not the priests power as a man to forgive , but it's by him being a witness and given authority to forgive in Jesus name, through Holy Spirit. This is important, it's not the priest himself or any power he has to forgive.
Ok, again, not Catholic (in fact in my Protestant youth I used to be fiercely anti-catholic lol), but I think this guy misrepresented Catholic teaching around forgiveness. The priest according to Catholic doctrine I believe does not have the power to forgive sins in his own right, but has the power to declare God's forgiveness, after a person has confessed and repented. Which for Catholics is an important distinction.
Hey Tomorrow We Live, isn’t the power to declare Gods forgiveness essentially the same as having the power to forgive? I’m not understanding the distinction?
-Hamza
To address your question about Martin Luther and departure from Catholic doctrine, I'd refer you to a book entitled "Here I Stand," a biography of Martin Luther. The whole origin of the protestant reformation can be traced to the advent of the Gutenberg press and the Gutenberg bible. Prior to this, only the priests had the ability to read the scriptures. All other believers were dependent on the church leadership to interpret the scriptures to them. In fact, to this day, many Catholics are discouraged from reading the scriptures for themselves (presumably because that would usurp power from the priests, bishops, and Pope.) Anyway, Luther was a very devout guy. A friar, then priest and theologian. And being a friar in those days involved doing penances for sins by doing such things as walking across a chapel floor on one's knees on top of ground glass to show one's contrition. Sin could only be forgiven through punishment. But when Luther began to read the scriptures for himself, he couldn't find a reference to support this practice, or to support many other teachings of the church at that time. Especially the whole thing of the "intermediaries" (Mary, the Saints, etc., I believe he considered to be idolatry.). He began to document the inconsistencies between the church's teachings and what he understood the scriptures to be saying. He listed them out into 95 theses on a piece of parchment which he nailed onto the church door in 1519. He also sent a copy to Rome, and was subsequently excommunicated. This act is universally accepted to be the act that spawned the protestant reformation (starting with Lutheranism, which emphasized "grace," or forgiveness as a result of faith alone) and the resulting split into all the confusing sects that resulted over the subsequent centuries. So pre Martin Luther = church doctrine spoon fed to the believers. Post Martin Luther = read the text and decide for yourself. Pray directly to God.
And I appreciate your discussions.
Appreciate the video trying to understand Christianity. So no Catholics are certainly not prevented reading scripture … that’s a fallacy, long ago a town might have only 1 Bible , back in the day being incredibly expensive …. And when printing press came about all Catholics and Protestants could own bibles …. So it’s incorrect , Catholicism is entirely built upon us followers to read scripture and prepare for the next lords day being Sunday readings … yes we have magisterium who interpret scripture various ways we can always speak i the Decons or father of parish if we don’t understand scripture we get a decent explanation and interpretation… rather than making incorrect personal interpretation that might even be different to another church brother … one needs to be learned about the culture , times and people to understand scripture … but point is no Catholics can ready any Bible they like there is no restriction don’t be fooled .
Hey Kerry, thank you very much for the comment and supporting our discussion to learn more about Christianity! And thanks for the info and book recommendation, may look into it soon 😁
-Hamza
I'm not Catholic but as I understand it Papal Infallibility has less to do with a 'state' in which he makes a pronouncement and is more of an 'area' (Catholic doctrine) which he makes a pronouncement on. It doesn't apply to just any random thing the Pope says, only to matters of theology. So they believe when the Pope makes an official pronouncement 'ex cathedra' i.e. from the throne or in his official capacity as Pope, on a matter of Church teaching, God will so guide him as to preserve him from making an error. IIRC like the doctrines of the Immaculate Conception and Bodily Assumption of Mary, Papal Infallibility only became official Catholic doctrine relatively recently, in the 19th century, as a response to the challenges to the church from secularism, liberalism, materialism and modernism and so on at the time. It's this kind of thing Protestants are talking about when they talk about Catholic traditions being 'innovations' added on to the Scripture over the centuries. It's why many Protestants are innately hostile to anything 'traditional'.
Thanks Tomorrow We Live on the explanation of the papal infallibility, definitely a beneficial read!
I enjoy learning from your comments and information!
-Hamza
Hey, I love your video. I am a Catholic, very Traditionalist. I can tell you this video you showed misrepresents Catholicism. Many mistakes: First of all, The Bible (New Testament) was NOT formally put together (we call it canon) but until 367 DC, It was made a book/bible by a catholic Bishop from Alejandria. This is precisely the reason why we treasure Tradition. Becuase at the beginning of The Church, there were no written "bibles". Only Oral Tradition and Old testament.
Funny how this catholic bishop is called the father of orthodoxy 😂
This is why I said the scripture is considered a part of catholic tradition itself because it arose from the tradition and history of the early church
-Rohaib
I could tell some of the things was not representative, I tired to speak to these when I caught them 👍
@@MuslimMindsUS not really true. Firstly "catholic" means universal. For gjr 1st 1000 years that includes both modern Catholicism and also eastern Orthodoxy.
2nd, the early letters even of the apostles qoute from "scripture". For example in the letter to Timothy, Paul qoutes the work of Luke as "scripture".
And the early church fathers who didn't even think of Roman Catholicism since it didn't exist as it does today- they affirm and qoute from the new testament. The books were already in circulation and the pre nicea consensus was ATLEAST the 4 gospels, Acts, and the letters of Paul- and then some differences on what other books they thought were canonical. Then eventually the church settled in 300Ad on the cannon of St Athanasius who refuted the heretical notion of Arianism and the unitarian view of God.
The council didn't discuss the cannon, they merely adopted which was basically agreed on already.
And the books we have today came from apostles and their associates. Not from "the catholic church". A true definition of today's Roman catholic church in any case comes from post 1054Ad
@@TheCathodox Please dont feel "excluded" in my comment. Yes, we were ONE. Eastern and Western Churches. We were one for hundreads of years. We Catholics love our eastern Brothers. We consider you guys an apostolic tradition. And we share many important dogmas. We even fought together in the Cruzades. Many of your Saints are our Saints. Church fathers are obviously the same. You dont need to deny our Tradition.
History is behind us Catholics, many friends in (Eastern) Orthodox Church love us and respect us, and agree on many important subjects. USA Orthodox Church are the ones I notice some hating on Catholic Church, perhaps bc many are new converts from Protestantism.
Quite late as I've only just seen this video pop up in my recommendations, but being that I am a Reformed Protestant I would like to comment on what you guys say circa 18:22. You are quite right that Protestants don't believe that salvation only requires a mere intellectual assent, we in fact do believe that good works are necessary for salvation. So then you ask what actually is the difference in what we, Orthodox Protestants, and the Romanists believe? It's a good question and you're not gonna find a lot of folks, at a pop level at least, that fully understand it. The issue is further complicated because at a pop level there are some ignorant "Protestants" (though I wouldn't call them that, but that's neither here nor there) that actually do believe in only a mere intellectual assent being necessary for salvation, an egregious error of the antinomians, and ignorant Romanists that think scripture mentioning the necessity of good works debunks the Protestant doctrine of Sola Fide (Faith Alone) when we agree that good works are necessary.
So for Protestants when we talk about being saved by faith alone we are talking about *justification* in the ordo salutis (order of salvation) and specifically our differences have to do with the *formal cause* of justification. We believe that the formal cause of our justification is the the imputation of Christ's righteousness onto the believer, meaning that the righteous status that we receive before God is the righteousness of Christ, where God imputes the merits and obedience of Christ onto the believer and this is apprehended by faith. The Romanists understand this differently, they understand that the formal cause of justification is the inherent righteousness of the believer. In their system faith is formed by the supernatural virtue of charity and works further are believed by them to be meritorious. We do acknowledge with them that God indeed infuses righteousness onto the believer, but we deny that God's act of infusing grace onto us is the cause by which man is constituted justified.
To simplify: We say that the formal cause of our justification is the perfect righteousness of our Lord which is made ours by the gift of God. The Romanists say that the formal cause of justification is the righteousness that inheres in us, and by inhering in us, makes us worthy of eternal life. So I would hope this helps you understand the differences that we have with the Romanists on this matter.
Before ending a couple of things I want to comment on; I think it should be noted that the maker of the video, while I don't know for sure, they seem to either be an Evangelical or come from an Evangelical background and seem to make some mistakes because of that. For instance, no Confessional Protestants would refer to their view of the Eucharist as being "Consubstantiation", the most prevalent views would be the Lutheran view of Sacramental Union or the Reformed/Anglican view of Real Spiritual Presence. I'm not going to explain those views, but do note that the information there in the video wasn't very precise. I would however want to comment on your claim that there are parables of Osiris where Osiris refers to bread and wine and his body and blood, I would love to see a source for that.
There are also some issues with the section on authority because again, the maker of the video seems to either be an Evangelical or they have that as their background so that's informing their view of the role of the Church in Protestantism as being very weak and individualistic. For Confessional Protestants we do grant that the Church has teaching authority and the ability to decide controversies, but on the basis of the infallible organ of scripture. Which poses issues later because they then state that Protestants hold the view that only scripture is authoritative, but that is.... just wrong, we believe scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith, but we don't dismiss the tradition of the Church. Long comment I know, but I hope it was somewhat informative.
One thing I will point out is that there is also a strong tradition of saints (wali) and veneration of them and visiting their graves/shrines in Islam as well. Similar to in Christianity, they're holy people who can do miracles and are venerated after their death and even invoked with prayers and have intercessory power. It's particularly connected to Sufism and Shiism but apparently in the Mediaeval era belief in Saints was considered a requirement of Sunni orthodoxy. Even today it's very widespread though this is more connected to what's termed 'folk Islam' than what you would probably consider proper Islamic practice. In many Islamic cultures, e.g. Morocco and North Africa there is even a tradition of saint families, whereby male children somehow inherit the sainthood of their ancestors and the 'baraka' (blessing) which people can obtain by touching them or even just being around them. So it's by no means something unique to Catholicism :)
Definitely not unique to Catholicism but main stream Islam does not encourage visiting holy figures especially those who have died for blessings. Shiaism and other branches do and the main body of Islam open criticizes this and even go so far as to accuse these groups of copying other faith traditions with the veneration of saints. In Sunni Islam, all one has to believe about Saints is that they are holy people who earned favor with God, such as the prophets and messengers, as well as the noble companions of these messengers.
Of course deviant practices can rise up over time this is what we believe happens generally to a faith tradition as it ages and innovation finds its way in. However the mainstream body of Islam has maintained consistency in avoiding the prayer towards or calling upon the dead for favor.
-Rohaib
@@MuslimMindsUS I don't think this is true. It's why there is prayer for Muhammad and his descendants in Salat:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shafa%27a
Intercessory prayer has existed for a long time in Islam. Departing from this is the innovation.
@@kingmarlin5043 I don’t think the link you shared has anything to due with prayer.
We as Muslims pray to God only 5 times a day, there is something else called Dua which is an invocation you can do at any time.
It’s okay to ask other people to make Dua on your behalf, the dua is towards Allah/God though.
The link you shared stated that what you are referring to some consider it haram and/or an innovation.
Also, I don’t think Wikipedia is a great source to go to reference Islam or any religion probably.
Is there another reference you have? Muslim pray FOR Muhammad (pbuh) to ask Allah/God. No mainstream Muslim is praying TO the prophet or the companions.
Hope that clarifies
-Hamza
Saints we’re not without sin.
Grateful for this video and truly appreciate and respect our brothers and sisters of Islam . I am Catholic and we truly do respect all religions , Mostly Protestant don’t accept or respect that all religions can be and are from God , we are not to judge . Most Protestants won’t ever say another religion is also true.
Just wanted to get that out the way first , it’s in our catechism that we do love other religions as our family albeit we don’t practice them naturally but there is no issue between us.
Very cool video debating from a outside perspective. You make some great points . Not biased .
There is always more for all of us to learn and understand , always.
I’ll respond a little more from Catholic perspective and personal view after fully watching again to comment in individual parts . ❤
What. You respect religions from demons? That's not catholic.
Hey Richarddeerflame B, thanks for the kind comment! Happy to hear you enjoyed our authentic and genuine reactions to this video.
-Hamza
@@edukaeshn Brother, The Catechism said in the catholic church. We are to respect all Religions even if we do not practice those religions but we are to be respectful of them. Why do you say Demons? Can you explain?
@@richarddeerflame Surely, you can provide a direct quote and would not make such an outrageous claim without direct evidence. Or do you have some reason to deceive?
@@edukaeshn Brother are you christian at all? Tell me your Faith? First and ill then show you in the Catechism where it says we respect other religions.
2. The Pope is infallible in very few instances. Rather than thinking of it as saying this is a truth it is actually pointing out what we can believe. This is has been used 2 times in total. It comes into play when Jesus hands the keys over to Peter and says Whatever you loose will be loosed on earth and what ever you bind will be bound on earth which echos King David in Isaiah.
3. John 6. Jesus continues to say that in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven you must eat of my body and drinking my blood. Jesus being the lamb would be a sacrifice. In order to come into communion with God you must eat of the lamb. In order for there to be peace among the ancient israelites they would often have a sacrifice (an unblemished lamb) and then eat of the flesh among two peoples to ease tensions.
4. Praying to saints. In Tobit we read of St. Raphael reminding Tobia that he put his prayer in front of the father meaning that the saints will put our prayers in front of God. We also see in Revelations that the angels and saints are offering incense to the Father. The people who are in Heaven are still praying. An argument would be that we do not need prayers or to pray for our loved ones then. We would say as Catholics that you can pray for others on earth and the same would go in heaven. Our God is a God of the living and not of the Dead because we believe Jesus Conquered death. They don't exist within time and exist in eternity.
5. The Bible isn't under the church. It was put together by the Church. We didn't have a bible handed to us until 400 years later. The protestants believe in their own belief but the Church put together the Bible because there were inconsistent books being used and they finally decided we need to have a set number of books.
6. I don't really ever get into this topic but it's always interesting.
7. James says faith without works is dead. Your works are necessary because Jesus doesn't ever say come believe in me he says come follow me. It is your acts of believing. We didn't earn salvation but to stay in union with salvation we must not act against the masters will. Luke 12 highlights this point.
8. Catholics also believe that we are all considered priests, prophets, and kings. We still believe that there are still priests that Jesus put in charge of the flock. If the whole flock were to be priests then there wouldn't be a flock. The priests are representatives of Gods divine mercy who will forgive us if we are truly contrite of heart but if you are not trully sorry than you will not be forgive. The priest is also a representative of the Church.
9. “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2).
“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us” (2 Thess. 3:6).
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15).
10. I'm not the best at arguing these points but most of these have been fleshed out by other people. Born without sin - Mary is the new ark of the Covenant because Jesus is God made flesh. IN order to understand Mary you need to read the foreshadowing in the Old testament.
Very Nice answers Thankyou Brother.
In terms of Mary being without sin.
A interesting topic ensues.
We think carefully here, in scripture we are not told Mary ever did sin. So scripturally we cannot say she is a sinner based on her being the vessel of our Lord and who The Angel came to her to say "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favour with God".
So how does one find favour with God? Consider this carefully.... the way to find favour with God is through not sinning and being virtuous. Now This is a one time event. Only to Mary did Jesus get born to , this has a HUGE implication right. Not just any woman. Why Mary. This is why, for a pure spirit of Jesus Christ to live inside and grow in a pure manner means that Mary certainly was without sin. This is not difficult to understand. Us humans are really funny. We often think, since I sin... well everyone else is a sinner... This is true to a certain degree.... However when present with scripture and with this Woman who an angel Came to and said "you have found favour with God"... this means something more than just... oh you are a good person you TRY not to sin.
Do you see why we then move to the idea that For the Lord to be born of Mary in such a way... is absolutely a Miracle. This just simply cannot happen to a true Sinner. The vessel would have to be immaculate.
The counter argument is that Mary then calls Jesus her Saviour... people say well that proves she sinned.
Does it ? really?
Jesus came to show us Gods Face, to open a way for those who believe in him to ever lasting life. This is clear from christian perspective and scripture . So he is ultimately the Saviour of all Flesh and humans. This is very clear. Mary by saying that confirms Christ saves all flesh and is indeed a saviour for all sinner and non sinner alike.
So now with the above said. Do you understand now why we come to the conclusion of Mary being without original Sin to prepare for the Absolute perfection to be Born on earth? This Is logically speaking why we see Mary in a beautiful light and she was the utmost Example of Obedience to God. UTMOST. So it's not an issue that we can see her as not having real heavy sin on her. This is after all GODS plan isn't it. God can do anything and therefore can allow a person to be born of virtue without Original sin if God Wills so.... who are we to say otherwise?
Thankyou for letting me also share this since it's very simple, and not a heavy tradition. Traditions come from scripture and logical inspection of what is not said in scripture and even inspired through the Holy Spirit. We know that we can gain so much insight when the Holy Spirit remains in us... that is not said in a scripture verse however one can understand the verses and what is in between the lines .
Mary no matter how you see her ... is special. And this being special is something that is special for eternity. A supreme Saint. Jesus on the cross said:
Jesus, therefore, seeing his mother and the disciple whom he loved standing by, said to his mother: iWoman, behold thy son.; Then, he said to the disciple Behold thy mother.; And from that hour the disciple took her to his own (home). This very well-known text is one of the most important Marian passages in Scripture.
that's why we see Mary as a mother. We are told she is spiritually to have been our mother as disciples in a spiritual manner. She is not anywhere close to Trinity But is certainly special. That's all.
Jeremiah found favor with God before he was born. It's not just about not sinning.
Also the Mary loop of perfection needs perfection is flawed because now the perfect and sinless Mary is born from a sinner? Now your whole logic falls apart.
@@TheCathodox
Not necessarily Blade. So Mary was Born to a sinner.. But not having the mark of Sin on her... There is no reason this can't happen... Only God knows and God has no limits. So that even if she was born to a Sinner, Mary was not the saviour yet her life could be without sin so the Saviour can be born. Understand? It's not impossible.
@@richarddeerflame Plus her mom was a saint. And she was conceived in a miraculous way (St.Ann was 80 years old). Anne promised God that she would dedicate her only child to the Lord's service. The couple then received a vision of an angel, who announced that Anne would conceive and bear a most wondrous child, Mary.
@@arteotomiMexico Thanks for commenting . Appreciated.
Two Protestant denominations have saints and "canonize" them, mainly the Anglicans/Episcopalians and Lutherans. By canonize I don't mean in the Catholic way, in which it takes years through a process for someone to become a saint (most of the time it takes a minimum of five years to start the process), but in the popular way in which there is a cultus built around a figure which grows bigger and bigger overtime (how Catholicism and Orthodoxy used to do saints).
ANOTHER VID?!🤯🤯🤯
TOO GOOD
Yuppp 😁
-Hamza
Many protestants have a huge problem with the sacrament of confession, however its completely biblical so from their own stand (bible alone) they should accept this. The scripture for this is John 20:19-23 where it says
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"19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
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Now we know that apostles handed down authority even from the bible, read books such as acts and the writtings of Paul to see this. Even moreso this is backed up through historical non biblical church sources such as the didache. This authority can not be universal (as some protestants claim we are all priest's), why? Because if this authority was given to us all, then our salvation would be put in jeopardy if someone we sinned against refused to forgive us.
With regards to the knowledge of the priest in the confession, the priest can deny forgiveness if he feels the person is not sincere, this is very rare and only really happens if the person makes it obvious that they do not intend to repent of the sin they confessed. If the priest grants forgiveness, the sins are forgiven, but if the confessor conceals sins from the priest then the confession is invalid, it is on the Catholic to be honest in there, if he intentionally decives the priest then he has commited an additional sin. If however he unintentionally forgot a sin or didnt confess something properly then he is not at fault and his sin is still forgiven.
Amazing video!
Thanks Saabreen 😌
-Hamza
Another good video. I felt both of you were more objective than the guy you were watching. Although I am Catholic, I think Islam and to a lesser degree Judaism have an advantage of having their text in one language and tradition for keeping things pure. Christianity was very spread out and and in Latin + Greek before everything was organized. Part of the Orthodox Catholic split was from Latin and Greek language translation differences.
Protestants I feel have a major issue because they just keep fragmenting and there is no tradition to prevent massive reinterpretation of the Religion. Additionally if they were to go back to an older version of Christianity it would logically be more similar in practice to Judaism and Islam. For example most Protestants believe in salvation through faith alone, but Judaism is mostly about how you act and Islam, Orthodox and Catholic all have some combination of Faith and doing good.
As for the faith vs good works, I have been told by many Protestants that salvation is by faith alone and they feel good works will come if faith good. But I don't feel it works that way in practice.
Hey Aaron, really appreciate the comment man! Yes, it seems Protestantism is more susceptible to changes in the faith that are not rooted in original Christianity.
And yes, salvation we believe comes from faith firstly and then good works after. And just because you have faith, does not mean you cannot be punished in Islam. Which is why we constantly are repenting and expressing gratitude. Ideally anyways 😅
-Hamza
The thing about the Saints is strange in someway even for me, but the same question could be said about why God used the Apostles for example to heal the sick and not just heal them by Himself?
I think this has something to do with being a part of the Mistical body of Christ, God wants to make us partecipate to His glory and plain of salvation and He wants us to love and have a relationship between our brothers too, so in this sense praying the Saints is a way to establish this love and relationship with other members of the Church that are already in paradise and in grace of God.
Isn't necessary praying to the Saints, you can pray only to the Father, the Son and the Holy spirit obviously, but I think for Catholics Saints are an extra help, because are our brothers.
I'm not Catholic but I find fascinating this concept of "Communion" in a sense where all of us in the Church are a part of the Mistical body of Christ and we are in a relationship cause of that.
Interesting take Francesco, thanks for sharing I have heard other Protestant friends of mine explain it in this way too
-Rohaib
Mary is called Queen because she is the mother of a king.
Hey Carlos! Is Mary referred to “Queen” in the Bible or just within the Catholic tradition?
@@MuslimMindsUS the Bible mentions Solomon’s mother as the Queen Mother. There is also the ark of the covenant in the Revelation to John.
@@MuslimMindsUS Its true. A interesting point being made. Jesus was never crowned king on earth ... However in Christianity he is king, So it stands to reason from a logical perspective that in the spirit, Queen would then be a word we could use to refer to Mother Mary since Kings are literally born of Queens. but look, I suppose anyone can within their faith be misguided, I know there may be Catholics, who make Mary their everything.... Their reasons for doing so might be many but the reasons are their own(not general Catholic thought ). The real Catholic Faith states that Jesus Christ is all. But if we say Queen, well it doesn't mean we deify her at all. It's probably a logical finding then since we say Jesus was King hence Mary queen. Yet We do feel loved by Mary for sure. Maybe often all disagreements are to do with Words in the world... and how we interpret words. yeah.
Blessings Brother.
@@MuslimMindsUS I'm a Methodist, raised Catholic, this "queen" distinction is not in the Bible but is a matter of Catholic tradition.
The protestant view of sin is not really that all is the same, i.e.: fornication is the same as saying a curse word. It's to be understood as "equal as in both lead to death" or absence of God. Because all sins in the eyes of God, are imperfect or unjust. They are different in a sense of the consequences you will experience. Therefore fornication is not the same as cursing, because it not only affects your mental and soul but also your body (1 Corinthians 6:18). Also what follows after a sin will vary depending on the sin, meaning that some sins can put you further away from God and reconciliation will be harder, like an addiction.
Just like men and women, in Gods eyes there is no difference, but we are different in earthly matters (Galatians 3:28).
I hope everything I wrote is understood, if others have different thoughts please write. As our strength in faith can grow in communion guided by God.
Edit: Another way they can be same is, that there is no sin God can't forgive (John 19:30 when Jesus died on the cross forgiving all sins, Romans 5:20).
Hello, your comment does clarify a little bit on how all sins are imperfect, or sins at the end of the day. But from an Islamic perspective and I guess a Catholic perspective too, the main difference would be the weight of the sin itself.
Not only is there that back-end effect like you mentioned on the consequences of the sin, but the sin itself we believe is weighted differently in the eyes of God/Allah.
I hope I presented our view properly and correctly :)
Thanks for the comment and info, very beneficial to try and learn from each other!
-Hamza
Christ gave authority to the apostles on pentecost. That authority has been passed down to the current Pope to do things like adjust and change church law and scripture interpretation.
🔥🔥🔥
Revelation 12
1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman, robed with the sun, standing on the moon, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
2 She was pregnant, and in labour, crying aloud in the pangs of childbirth.
3 Then a second sign appeared in the sky: there was a huge red dragon with seven heads and ten horns, and each of the seven heads crowned with a coronet.
4 Its tail swept a third of the stars from the sky and hurled them to the ground, and the dragon stopped in front of the woman as she was at the point of giving birth, so that it could eat the child as soon as it was born.
5 The woman was delivered of a boy, the son who was to rule all the nations with an iron sceptre, and the child was taken straight up to God and to his throne,
6 while the woman escaped into the desert, where God had prepared a place for her to be looked after for twelve hundred and sixty days.
This is one place when you can find Mary as the Queen of Heaven.
This portrayal of the Queen of Heaven is replacated in the Tilma which came about ofter her apparition to Juan DIego in Mexico.
the biblical support for the assumption of Mary comes from the book of revelations. Catholics regard Mary as the new Eve as well as the new ark of the covenant. the old ark contains the word of God (stone tablets) the bread of life (manna) and the symbol of a high priest (aaron's staff/rod) Mary contained in her womb Jesus, who is the Word of God, Bread of life and High Priest. in revelations the author see's the heavens open and in it he see's the ark of the covenant, immediately after that he see's a woman clothe with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars above her head.
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm. A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. (revelations 11:19 -- 12:1-2)
of course the bible initially did not have chapters and verses and so these two verses were actually mean't to be read as one cohesive story.
Great video by Muslim Minds yet again الحمد الله
Thanks for commenting Hamza 😁jazak Allah khair
-Rohaib
Muslims get intercession from Muhammed at the end though
Also from an orthodox perspective now, praying to the saints is Biblical and encouraged because they are witnessing. We have something called Theosis (to complex to explain here just research its intresting) in wich People Basecly strive to Become lower case gods by the grace of The God, gods in the sense of returning to the way adam was before the fall.
This intercession is actually more of an honoring of the prophet. God says in the Quran a few times that no one can’t intercede without Gods leave. But we don’t have to go to the prophet or call upon him or anyone else to have a direct connection with God through prayer.
This is also on the day of judgment when no one earns good deeds or sins anymore
@@MuslimMindsUS you dont have to ask the saits for intercession either. Its simply encouraged for prayer for a fellow Brother is always Good. We believe saints are as much part of the church as The living are. I simply wanted to point out that intercession from the dead is Not only taught in Christianity (catholicism and Orthodoxy)
Thank you for sharing this perspective
Let's just pray to God now 🙏 & Show himself to us 🙏🙏🙏