Lack of cohesion, lack of direction, too much controversy, lack of a recognised tone for the universe. DC characters are super known, they could/should be hugely successful.
And it's not like they have inferior characters, in fact go to any country and show them the Superman shield and 9 times out of 10 they will recognize it.
Honestly the MCU deserves its success, many people don't talk enough about the fact that they built a successful cinematic universe by starting with D and C list characters (minus Hulk), the fact that they did that without using their most popular characters ( X-Men and Fantastic Four, even Spider-Man in the beginning ) is incredible.
He’s right, the movies are just better. The character development has always been better with Marvel movies so the audience cares more. Kevin Feige has always said, it’s all about the characters
I think the main reason why the MCU is the most successful movie franchise of all time, 3000 times better than the DCEU, is because Marvel Studios has amazing well-written stories, beautifully designed heroes and villains, and talented visionary directors and writers. But the story and design isn't the only thing making the MCU an iconic Marvel of cinema, Marvel Studios also has something DC doesn't: a dedicated creative leader. Kevin Feige, the President of Marvel Studios, truly understands the Marvel Universe and recreates its amazing stories in cinematic detail, all of these stories were adapted into movies and shows that would inevitably follow Kevin's one creative vision. Even if some MCU movies and shows are viewed as failures by some, Kevin never gives up. He understands the source material as a whole; he takes parts of the comics' storylines and adapts it into Hollywood Cinema. All of that makes Kevin Feige a great visionary leader. That is what makes the MCU successful as it is today.
the way snyder fundamentally did not understand both clark kent AND superman as characters in man of steel ruined the movie for me. he focused more on the cold alien kryptonian side than what superman is truly about. he is not human by nature he is human by nurture. and none of his true character was personified in the snyderverse, which is why people think he’s the worst hero or a plain and boring john doe. it’s so disappointing that dc’s flagship hero was so bastardized tbh.
@@princeofallsayians1551 superman is the last hero that needs an origin story. and like i said before, he was portrayed as a cold alien (which, yes, he is from another planet) but he had been raised as a human his entire life, and that whole side of him was thrown away for what? a shitty movie. though, i enjoyed it at the time, the rewatch value is nothing compared to a marvel film i’ll say that.
The answer is Stan Lee. He didn't want to be like Batman and Superman. Stan Lee wanted his characters to have real problems like real people . That is the answer.
The MCU is doing what the DCAU did in the 90s and early 2000s. If the DCEU were more like the DCAU, they’re success would’ve been more impactful. Feige and everyone he hired are Marvel fans who respect the material. WB just has suits making those movies who are not fans of the source material.
Why people get this so wrong? Campea and his crew gave the one and only real reason. Marvel films are just overall more reletable and better to the general movie goin audience. I prefer DC films much better but the reality is that DC films are for some sectors of the audience. Even TDK is a phenom in popculture but it took a magical performance by Ledger to connect with the audience.
I disagree. .. Ironman promised the Avengers then went on to assemble the team and we waited for it, movie after movie till the team came together. We all took the journey and brought out family with us. Marvel simply built something. Dc never truly did.
Thank you so eine who gets it DC just throws a film at the wall and hope it sticks. People keep forgetting also 2 of the next DC films are riddled with controversy and potential money loss due to two of the main actors.
in my opinion "the avengers" was so much more of a well thought out film then something like "batman vs superman" or "the force awakens." It made the audience curious to see what was going to happen next.
Christopher Reeves Superman despite all of his powers and abilities couldn't save Lois from dying in the earthquake. You feel his pain. You want this travesty not to happen. And because Superman is the personification of hope, he flew around the world so fast that his force reverses time. As a Young child watching that, it was the coolest thing I ever saw a superhero did. Reeves is always my Superman.
Mcu actually had a plan from the beginning, the people behind the camera actually cared for the movies to be good, Kevin feige is a experienced leader and he is a real fan, sure mcu has it's problems, especially in recent that the producers care about quantity more than quality, but still they know what they are doing, unlike the dceu leaders that have no idea how to use dc characters
Rob nailed it. I love Superman and in MoS I wanted so much more of Clark just facing life. My favorites scenes from that movie were him working on the boat or in that diner and watching him restraining himself from that bully. I just felt like they leaped too quickly from ‘that’ Clark to all of a sudden Superman having to save the human race from annihilation. Yes, a lot of ppl might’ve hated that approach bc it moved too slow but I personally would’ve loved it.
I think Rob hit the nail on the head in regards to characterization. You do get a better sense of who these characters are as a person before they become the superhero. Tony Stark, Iron Man, billionaire playboy, sees how his business is affecting other people and decides to change his ways. Captain America's sense of honor and duty as the average Joe before getting his powers that helped him shape who he is. Even Doctor Strange, he was a stereotypical surgeon who thought himself above everyone else, until he's brought back down to Earth before he gets his powers.
@@dcmastermindfirst9418 Well... that's like... your opinion, man. I'm not going to get into a Marvel vs DC. Batman is my favorite comicbook character, but as far as movie franchises go, the MCU has had a better track record. But again... I'm not going to debate which universe is better.
@@dcmastermindfirst9418 Do you like every single movie that wins the Oscar for Best Film? Do you like every single movie everyone else likes? If your answer is anything but no, then you proved your argument is faulty. Movies are subjective... facts are objective. I did not care for The Batman, but I did think it was the most "Batman" movie made. I think "The Dark Knight" is a far superior Batman movie to "The Batman." I also enjoyed "No Way Home" much more than "The Batman." The fact that the movie had more Saturn award nominations is cool. It doesn't change my opinion that I just did not care for "The Batman." And believe me... I really wanted to. So you can spout all nominations whatever... it won't sway my opinion.
Kevin Feige understand the Marvel characters (although there's some directors and writers that don't), and he brought from the comics what makes them special in the first place, the heroes they are and that spark that makes them tick, he brought with his vision the heart and hope these heroes have in the comics. He didn't try to make them more "grounded" or anything like that. In the first phase of the MCU, Feige showed us classic stories of these heroes, he didn't change them to exists in "today's world", he just told classic, pure superhero, light hearted stories and adapt them in today's world. He brought heroes that believed in justice and truth, that's why it worked. Snyder and WB, did the opposite with Superman, he treated him like the Nolan's Batman and that's why it failed to appeal to many people. Snyder and WB do not understand the DC characters because they don't understand what makes them heroes or special in the first place.
The most grounded dc movies r their best. I understand not every movie has to be grounded ans realistic but that's y u have the Dceu, movies like the joker and the batman are great and their more for adults who don't wanna see campy cookie cutter movies
For me personally the reason I like the MCU films and why I think they're higher rated than DCEU is that there's actual compelling and impactful storytelling taking place, its more than what its marketed aka just a bunch of cool Hollywood action fight scenes and it develops Characters like a soap opera that makes you want to tune back in and get your fix of the MCU. In BvS (2016), the studio marketed that this would be a crazy crossover with superheroes on both sides fighting each other, and I left the film personally thinking wow... it had Batman and Superman fighting each other. In Civil War they marketed that we'd be getting a crazy crossover with heroes on both sides fighting each other, but instead of again leaving the film thinking wow... a crazy crossover with Iron Man and Cap fighting each other, you leave the film feeling bad for Tony, questioning Caps morals and if he made the right choice, wondering how this fallout between these 2 heroes would affect the rest of the Avengers. Already you can see the dramatization is what's keeping people hooked to come back and see future projects. In BvS Supes just died and that's it... what are ppl supposed to look forward to other than the fact that they teased a few upcoming superheroes like Flash and Aquaman ??
You can cite the big superhero fight in “Civil War”, and if you /were/ a superhero or comic book fan, you thought, “Yeh!” because it was just like the comics. And then the mega-superhero throw down at the end of “Endgame” was the frakkin’ motherload…
Instead of creating movies with DC characters as they are in the comics, Zach Snyder wanted to do this "Burnt-Sky-Muted-Color Slo-Mo Nightmare Vision" of an Evil Superman and battered superheroes.
Rob’s right about the characters being relatable. As a character in either universe, I would much rather hang out with the MCU heroes if I were to ever meet them as civilians than any of the DCEU heroes if I’m being honest.
10:25 - Not only is he a nerd, but he was a cartoonist. A lot of people don't talk about what Steve's job was before he was a soldier, but he was an illustrator. You see this when he was doodling in Italy, and in a deleted scene from Avengers where he was sketching Stark tower.
Simple answer: they had a Kevin Fiegie instead of DC executives. DC executives have sabotaged the DCEU from nearly the beginning for bonuses, due to them leaving or going, lack of care for the source material and just wanting MCU $, disputes with talent like directors like having a trailer editing firm edit a movie, etc. Regardless how people feel about Snyder, the executives choosing him and then not properly working with him on bvs with same critiques from mo's following bvs despite 3 years to avoid those same critiques was not being good producers. DCEU executives rushed the DCEU to try to get avengers $. It's important what executives are in charge. Love or hate the MCU, Kevin Fiegie has great experience with producing and assisting producers of marvel films and is a marvel comics fan who has had a vision and not just chase avengers $. Making guardians was a BIG RISK. So was bp and captain marvel. So was antman. Meanwhile DC executives have tried to milk batman since 1989 for all the characters worth meanwhile we still dont have a mos or superman sequel to a film that came out almost 10 years ago.
So true. And without Guardians Warner would never have made movies like Shazam because Guardians showed them that you could get a lot of money with unknown characters.
People are getting tired of seeing Batman films. People want to see something new. Feige had years to bring in the right producers, writers, directors, etc...to work in the MCU.
@@Blballerboy I say above average. This is 3rd film franchise that RP has been in. If he's not hitting in the Billions, then his star power is starting to fade.
@@FriendlyBatDoom They(SONY, DISNEY/MARVEL) pulled it off to hugely success. WB was trying to do a multiple Batman appearance("BATMAN FLASHPOINT"); and that movie keeps getting pushed back.
Hence no Henry cavil as Superman, and no Batman that I thought batfleck could be to come up with contingency plans for any of them, they could have done it, I mean the blueprint as there, and they never developed there characters enough to make a cohesive group, and john has a point the mcu has made better movies, that they can connect for the audience up till endgame hell even no way home!!
Personally I think it's because the MCU has done the job step by step without rushing things, the DCEU started fine with MOS but for three years they didn't make any projects to extend the "universe" that Zack Snyder established. The MCU didn't bet all to just one director, they have hired several directors and writers that can add different angles for different characters but all pointing in the same direction. The DCEU (or WB) decided to bet all to just ONE director and, while for a period of three years they could've made at least two stand alone movies to expand their universe, instead they rushed things up with BvS (great movie by the way) being the prelude for JL, a superhero team with members wich back story were basically unknown for many. The MCU established several characters out there with several movies on their own and when it was time for the first Avengers movie their gathering felt very organic because most of the standalone stories were already told and they didn't feel the need of making a 4 hour movie. The MCU introduced a character like black panther and the land of wakanda little by little: first a mention of it, then gave us T'Challa as a secondary character AND THEN his own movie, same with spiderman. The DCEU somehow forced the some things like the Mother Boxes with no background until the JL movie, movies like Suicide Squad felt kinda weird because most of those character belong to a "batverse" but we haven't had a proper batman movie within the DCEU that can introduce those characters, including some like Nightwing or Batgirl. I like both brands, I really do even I have little inclination more to DC, but frankly I wished the DCEU were more like the MCU... Just from an administrative focus
I see what ur saying about relatability, but I've always felt the same way with DC heroes. People who relate to Batman just because he's human, miss the point of Superman. Tbh Superman is the most relatable superhero. He was raised by good, hardworking people on a good set of morals. He tries do the right thing. Help others. As clark (who he identifies as) he rushes to meet a deadline. Tries to get the girl of his dreams. Calls into his parents every once in awhile to say: "hey I'm ok. How are you guys?". He exercises, drinks a beer cuase he likes it. People need to see past the surface level. And see that DC heroes are much more then their powers. And only the best DC stories prove that. They need that in their live action movies to mix perfectly with the action too of course
The problem is a subconscious thing besides the vs forum threads don't help I leave it to you in Batman vs Hulk And analyze your thoughts and what are the things that come to your mind.
You nailed it. I never related to Superman as a person. Spider-Man, well, Peter Parker was me. The better Batman movies are about Bruce Wayne’s humanity, not his gadgets. I have not seen Shazam or Aquaman but now I want to, if they are relatable characters. Good points.
Marvel had a headstart and when dc decided to have a connected universe the people in charge in WB overreacted to critics and started dismantling their own universe.
Man of Steels problems have nothing to do with the relatability of the main character. The problem is simple. The Director!!! Stick to the character development in the comics for each individual character.
Yes and no. MOS was quite a good film (that may have not stuck the landing). It’s biggest issue and why it didn’t make more money is that it wasn’t a 4 quadrant fun/entertaining film. Marvel excels in that (until recently) and that’s why they are so popular.
People that say Superman is boring. I want you to look at Spiderman: Homecoming. That movie is so intricate and fun. Now imagine if Jon Watts read a Spider-Man comic where Peter Parker wonders around being sad the whole issue, and decided to make that particular comic his main inspiration for his movie trilogy. Well that’s basically what happened with Mos and Bvs. Now imagine if we got 2 Superman movies before the first JL movie they did, and they more closely resembled the recent Man of Tomorrow animated movie that came out. Or if his childhood was more portrayed like Smallville.
that's right! Tyler Hoechlin's Superman in the superb SUPERMAN AND LOIS TV series is the way to go - not only totally relatable (like all the characters in the series!) but also likable. Youcare about him! Though Cavill is iconic inthe role, he is distant and cold, unlike Christopher Reeves who was also very likable.
Exactly! And the Cavill's version has everything to be a good Superman, but WB and Snyder ruined it by make him more "edgy" to make him look more like the Christopher Nolan's Batman because that Batman was more grounded and so, and WB forgot what makes Superman special, that's why the Sam Raimi Spider-Man is so beloved, because he brought what makes Spider-Man special and how light hearted he is no matter the shitty situations he faced, the MCU did the same thing. And Snyder and WB didn't do that with Superman, that's why they failed in competing with the MCU.
Yes, it really is that simple. The general movie going audience have decided that they will most likely enjoy a Marvel movie compared to something from DC. You can have any plot and add any messaging you want but none of that matters if at the end of the day you don't answer the most important question..."will I be entertained?".
Marvel made a promise and fullfilled it without dropping the ball. bit lose at times but it worked. Now go listen to a promise from the avengers soundtrack and get goosebumps.
I think they could have different tones and still be positive. MoS, BvS, and Justice Leauge, all Snyder projects, through out decades of character definition to make them gritty and killers. That isn't the tone that Superman needs. (He may benefit from gritty, but didn't have to become a killer...) I think they struck that wrong chord with two of the big three and couldn't unring that bell afterward.
I always felt like Captain America had New York, Superman had Metropolis, Batman had Gotham, Tony had California and pretty much every other state in the USA. The thing is, it’s harder to make sponsorships/relationships with cities that aren’t real. Idk that’s my opinion.
Robert and Kris are overthinking this. You can still make good movies despite not relating to the characters. Not being able to relate to the characters did not affect any of the movies RT score. They mentioned that they could not relate to WW, but that was critically successful and a box office success. And I would even argue that she did have relatable qualities during that movie. John nailed it on the head. They did not make great movies to start and now the reputation is in the mud. People have mixed opinions about Man of Steel, the general audience felt that Batman vs Superman was bad, the general audience hated Suicide Squad, and the general audience despised Justice League. If that's four out of your first 5 movies then you have a major problem. The first 5 MCU movies were Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Thor 1, Captain America 1, and The Avengers. If your reputation is in the mud then it's hard to get out of it. It does not really matter if Aquaman, Shazam, and The Suicide Squad are good. They came out the gate with bad films.
That and their movies are 4 quadrant films that appeal to more audiences. That’s something DC hasn’t consistently done (did so with WW, Aquaman and Shazam).
@@valaja1458 Yup. Don't really think that 'appealing to more audiences' thing really matter. You could have a good shared universe if you just make good movies. You could simple down mostly all movies to make characters and the stories relatable.
Disney/Marvel announced they were going to create a cinematic connected universe leading up to the Avengers years ago. WB/DC dared them and Marvel called their bluff in 2012 imo of course.
It is still too general and subjective. The more specifically, MCU stories are psychologically have a lot in common with majority people: sentimental, contemplative, cheerful and tell you conservative moral story. In other hand, DCEU stories are too gloomy, dark, too serious. Only few people related to how DCEU stories written.
While I agree that a lot of the DCEU movies are not well-made, I think John is separating quality of movie from lack of buildup from previous movies as if those were two unrelated issues, when in the case of the team-up movies ( _Justice League_ versus _The Avengers_ ) those two went hand-in-hand. _The Avengers_ worked because we already knew five of the six Avengers from previous movies. The only Avenger who didn't really get a proper introduction in a previous movie was Hawkeye (he got just a brief cameo in _Thor_ ). So we already connected to these characters and now it was exciting to see them all stumble together into the same world for the first time. Whereas for _Batman v. Superman_ and _Justice League_ , aside from Superman and Wonder Woman (the only ones to get their own standalone movies before _JL_ ) we didn't know these people from Adam. They were essentially just strangers with powers. _BvS_ could've been so much better if we had gotten a standalone Batman movie before that where we got to see who this version of Batman was and where he was coming from. The DCEU movies have a lot of problems but one of the biggest ones was, yes, the lack of character building, whether because that wasn't happening in the standalone movies or because there were no standalone movies for so many of the main characters.
The DCEU movies just are not entertaining for the vast majority of people. They have moments here and here in films.. And I love DC comics. I would rather rewatch a handful of their animated films than most of their "DCEU" films.
We've had : Joker, Man of Steel (your favorite film John), I like Birds of Prey, The Batman, Shazam, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, The Suicide Squad, Batman v Superman Ultimate Cut especially. Then if we're gonna go outside of dceu, TDK TRILOGY, WATCHMEN, V FOR VENDETTA, there's a lot of great dc films
I liked Birds of Prey, but they should have had Cassandra Cain surprise us in being able defend herself, and Batgirl/Barbara Gordon should have been involved at some point. I also would have made Black Mask's less definite. The film also need some more male presence. Then I would say its that it came in the wrong order, wrong time.
The only bad movies were the BvS and Justice League. Even then the extended cut of BvS is ok and Snyder cut Justice League is better than most MCU movies. DCEU made A LOT of mistakes but it's underrated.
The REAL reason why the MCU films have been more successful is simple. Marvel Comics established their own film studio, and though they didn’t have the rights to their most iconic heroes (having sold them off in the 90s), the knowledge, understanding, and respect for the source material they had to work with allowed them to make good films, and turn second tier characters like Iron Man into top tier characters. DC Comics doesn’t have this luxury. They sold ALL the film rights to their ENTIRE catalogue of characters to Warner Media, so the people making the decisions at Warner Bros. are people who have no knowledge, understanding, or respect for the source material.
while I like the darker tone of some of the DC stuff, it speaks volumes that the most highly rated DCEU film, Shazam, is the most MCU like movie they've made.
I think it really hurt DC that they put Zach Snyder's films out front. They were a consistent vision, but they were a vision that irked many long time fans. There's a reason that the most popular DC movies on that list aren't the biggest characters that were handled by Snyder. They both tried a consistent vision, but Fiege's was one that was appreciated by general audiences and comic fans alike. (winks and nods as needed to make up for any changes.) I liked the first half of Man of Steel, but by the end he lost me in breaking from decades of experience of Superman doesn't kill. And BvS broke Batman's decades of Batman doesn't kill. Such a big break from the stories that have stood for so long were too much a stretch and I couldn't get behind them. Edit from late in the video: YES! What Robert said. Man of Steel is a very cool first contact story. But it's not THE Superman story. So why make compromises to what we know for a story you want to tell. Tell your story. If you want to make a Superman movie, build on or re-interpret his core points. It's like having a cool sci fi story with interesting bad guys that aren't Klingons, but you get picked up by Star Trek so you tell your story and say the Klingon's used to be this way. NO! Make your own story if you have a good one. If you want to tell Star Trek stories, build on the lore. I'll get off my soapbox now. :-)
Don’t agree with everything you said or Rob, but agree that Marvel gears it’s film for general audiences and comic fans. DC has geared more to the fans and older audiences.
Yeah I felt absolutely nothing when Superman died in bvs even though Superman is my favorite character ever. Snyder failed to humanize Superman or make me believe the people of that earth would actually care if he died. I could watch an entire movie where the avengers just hang out whereas with dc I don’t wanna see those assholes Superman and Batman in anything ever. They’re bad representations of Batman and Superman. That’s why they’re both successful in every other medium except the dceu.
Very true about the relatability. I think that is why even Joker was so great. It showed you just how human he was until his life made him feel he couldn’t be human anymore.
That's like a disappointing father type of talk - depressing but true: "Strip away all the superpowers, special effects, explosions, CGI, and cool costumes, and is your movie even worth watching anymore?"
You're guys are right about the characters being more relatable but I'm going to add another reason to the list. Marvel ever since Stan Lee took over had pretty strong internal cohesion because everything was being created by the same creative team and could add to the universe as they went along. Well DC has had a long history of buying out or suing other comic book publishers and adding those characters into the DC universe. So they are just constintally having to add in more character and force it all work together. That's why well Marvel has had a few reboots and sliding time scale as the years have gone by it is still all works as a cohesive universe. well DC has had huge continuity resets now on almost a yearly bases because they give up on one idea and just wipe the board and start over but that just turns more people away because if everything keeps getting reset nothing feels like it matters anymore. So people has just lost faith in DC comics over the years, I know I have, well Marvel, with a few hiccups here and there has managed to keep things going without screwing up there own continuity too bad and has managed to keep reward it's audience for sticking with them for so long.
I think the biggest reason as to why the MCU has been more successful than the DCEU is something that I think a lot of people have forgotten over the years, the MCU is arguably the biggest reason as to why superheroes are as popular with the mainstream public as they are now, now obviously there had been beloved superhero movies before the MCU like the original Superman, Batman Begins, X-Men etc. but those were made during a time where superheroes were still a niche market, they were made during the period of time where you’d get laughed at and called a nerd for saying you like superheroes, but once the MCU came along they created a universe that felt like it was making an effort to appeal to those who thought superheroes were dumb beforehand, and it worked, when people walked out of the first Iron Man they had the reaction of “Y’know I’m not even a superhero guy but Tony Stark was pretty cool” They did the same thing with Captain America, they took a character who was arguably the biggest laughingstock of the superhero world and made him into a total badass, whether you’re more of a DC fan or not I think you have to acknowledge that the MCU is what helped the world of superheroes become the thriving part of pop culture it is today, so to me I think that’s the biggest reason as to why the MCU has always been more successful
I would say who comes first serves first. They were the first to come up with the idea of a cinematic universe and with that they have built a huge and loyal fanbase.
The highest grossing DC film to date is Aquaman Just let that sink in. Aquaman. The character that was a punchline in jokes for years and he's the winner. Which goes to show its about the film, the spectacle and finding ways to make the lead character charismatic and compelling when pop culture has not.
MCU wa focused on doing their own thing while the DCEU was playing catchup. Like that Michael Phelps meme: "Losers focus on winners... Winners focus on winning"
'Better movies' is basically a summary of all the failures of the DCEU that are why it has failed where the MCU succeeded. While I disagree, heavily, with certain rankings on that list granted it's based on Rotten Tomatoes scores - Man of Steel isn't up there. And Rob nails part of that on the head - and why I can not like that film. Yes, Superman is a Kryptonian, he gets these fantastic powers - but he was raised as a human, he is very much still human, he was raised by people with a set of values that reflected the best of what America could be, that he should use these powers for good and to help - but in the 78 film, despite all his powers, he can not save his father from the heart attack - even with time travel it may not be enough in the 70's. Despite these god like powers, he is not perfect, nor is he all powerful, he can not save everyone, can't always decide who lives and dies. Snyder threw that all away - and the film suffered for it, for him letting his dad die, for him not being more careful in how he fights, all of it. 1989 batman works (and is way too far down on the list compared to the new film) because Bruce sure is rich - but is 'eccentric billionaire' Bruce Wayne, he's weird, awkward, a little off - despite being rich he's really still just kinda the weird kid at school and all. He's still relatable as a person past the money, especially to some of us that weren't great with socializing. Also the lines and delivery are memorable and all while the new one has so many issues in dumb writing to count. Wonder Woman worked because sure she's basically an immortal demi-goddess, but she's still a person, still seems human if out of her element, and a well written story where as the other one just... the writing fell apart there entirely and some of the decisions just... yeah. While some people will argue he's not really how Aquaman should be - then again that depends which version you want the age old joke or the bad-a** of the seas, 'Bro-Drogo' Aquaman still works cause he's a dude and can kick ass. Shazam it needed some help in writing, and better advisors and all if they wanted to put it in Philly cause there's a lot off as someone that comes from that area, but still it's very much what you'd expect of a kid getting superpowers. I'm weird, I like 2016 Suicide Squad more than the new one cause I feel it did a better job with certain things, especially with some of what was cut. But overall - as someone who grow up more with DC than Marvel - overall, it's quality and faithfulness to characters is dragging it down.
It's a mix between the MCU making better movies with a real sense of heart, good character work and the fact that the Main Six (minus The Hulk) were basically non-entities in Mainstream Pop Culture at the time. People know inately when they are experiencing a good story, it's really one of our main traits as a species, info sharing.
WB meddling with every movie after Man of Steel and second-guessing themselves is also a factor. And BVS was rushed, we should‘ve gotten solo Affleck Batman and MOS Sequel first. Never understand why Suicide Squad was the 3rd movie.
I thing Rob is right. And I feel like that’s why the more successful DCEU films (Shazam, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, etc) made it more about the characters and gave audiences reason to relate to them.
While the MCU has been better and more successful, it is sort of baffling that it’s gone that way considering DC has the more popular and well known superheroes.
You are right, DC does have more popular and well known superheroes, which is why it’s an even bigger testament to Kevin Feige’s leadership that he was able to overtake DC and turn several C list Marvel characters into hot box office properties. The MCU has made its obscure characters more culturally relevant than DC could with their already known ones. That’s the power of good storytelling.
DC's Last DCEU film was The Suicide Squad and that was released in August last year and next one is Black Adam which releases in October, between The Suicide Squad and Black Adam MCU released Shang Chi, Eternals, Spider Man No Way Home, Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness and Thor Love and Thunder so yeah
One of the things I think Superman 2 did so well with the fight in Metropolis was using the spectators to kick in the emotion. These people have been conquered by three Kryptonians (not that they know what a Kryptonian is) and they have one hope that they are relying on. And he shows up and they are elated. But then the movie showed how the realization starts setting in that their expected deliverance is not going to come. Then their champion falls and they are so upset they try to take matters into their own hands (which predictably goes poorly) and finally they are confronted by the one they thought would save them flying away and they are in disbelief. They are just staring up into the sky in shock. Nolan also did a good job of building up the Gotham's relationship with Batman in the Dark Knight rises when he shows the reaction of the every day cop on the street when Batman shows up after a hiatus and he is like, "You are in for a show tonight!" While we might not be able to relate to the hero we can certainly relate to the average citizen and how they feel about the hero.
There's really not much cohesion with Marvel. Some plot threads have been straight up dropped, some have divided into weird directions. I think what helped with MCU was consistency. They didn't have this weird "let's fire Snyder and slam in Whedon" for Avengers like WB did for Justice League. WB doubts and second guesses themselves way too often. The only time Marvel did that was with Incredible Hulk. And even then, they piled so many other movies in Hulk's place. The DCEU dividing and having Wonder Woman and Aquaman separate feels weird. Ben Affleck not having a solo Batman movie feels weird. The fact that Justice League 2 was dropped feels weird. And the Flash movie sounds like a mess. All people want is Justice League 2, a solo Batman movie, and Henry Cavill doing a Man of Tomorrow movie. But DC being DC wants to learn the hard way and they've fluttered off into divided solo movies that don't connect. Nobody wants The Flash that throws everything away when they already did that with The Joker and The Batman.
The MCU is all about cohesion. Yes they may have dropped a plot point or two here and there but overall the entire story is woven together. I watch marvel movies with a squad of 8 people and every time we leave the theater we ask the same question “how will this effect the story” because everything is intertwined in some way. That is what I believe makes the MCU so great! This guy kind of said it best in another comment “the mcu is legit like a ongoing drama tv show it always leaves you wanting to know what happens next” I can give a million examples of cohesion but I’ll do the obvious ones. Wanda vision tv show literally set up the entire doctor strange film (and at the end Monica Rambo is going to space with the skrulls secret invasion/the marvels). Almost every project even earlier on was getting you ready for the next film and now tv shows. Again I agree some plot points may be dropped but the overall story is because of cohesion we wouldn’t even have a “story” with all this connectivity that goes on it’s literally impressive and bold because it’s at the point now where if you go watch a movie without seeing the tv show you may legit not know what the hell is going on. That’s absolutely nuts that the story has gotten so big they can create a tv show to really dive deep into a plot then bring it all together for an actual film. Hell even the first avengers movie if you didn’t watch the thor films you’d be like “who the hell is this dude with giant gold horns and why does his blonde hair brother hate him so much” or when tony showed up while cap was fighting Loki and said to Natasha “you miss Me” with out watching the iron man films you’d never know that black widow was “working” for tony beforehand. There are so many little lines that are said that reference something from the past movies like when the wasp said “we’re on it cap” and ant man smiles at her because in the prior ant man film hope always made fun of Scott for saying “cap” the cohesion isn’t just plot points it’s the legit interactions and relationships between the characters themselves. Sorry for the long response.
The answer is more simpler than whats been said and that is that it was just planned better from the very beginning and they stuck to that plan, were there modifications along the way? Yes, but the vision/idea was already set.
These are all very dumb arguments. I thought John’s points couldn’t get any worse, then I heard Rob’s🙄. Tony Stark is not more relatable than Clark Kent and Billy Batson, to me. I could relate to Arthur’s struggle between two worlds in Aquaman. The problem is not with relatability. The problem is not box office. The early DCEU performed very well, financially. If anyone expected them to be billion dollar movies just because their brand names are to be blamed for their faulty logic. Just because Marvel was getting billions on their B-list superheroes, doesn’t guarantee that your A-list characters will perform the same or better. John was half right about the fans and why they preferred MCU, they have faith in the next movie coming out. DC has to be word of mouth, while Marvel just has to do a little promotion to hit $700M+.
@@harrisonsims7680 are you also a “Genius, Billionaire, Playboy, Philanthropist” who can solve any problem with your intellect, engineering skills, and a futuristic armor that you’ve created for yourself? I didn’t think so. Superman will always be relatable as a character and what it means to be good, to be human, to have and to bring hope. Look past the powers and look at the characters for who they are, it’s very easy, trust me.
They chose a slightly darker approach with Zac Snyder that certainly some people like a lot, but they just aren’t as numerous as those who like the Marvel approach. Certainly there are other reasons. I absolutely loved that Tony Stark decided to forego having a secret identity. Very unexpected but I loved it.
I also think the expectations for superman,batman and the justice league are higher then then they was for ironman , cap and thor i think marvel had the liberty of using characters that at the time people did not have high expectations for as where man of steel is coming off the dark knight trilogy so people expected that same quality and it didnt deliver but i think your right john
To me I'm not the biggest fan of the MCU, all their movies have the same recipe 1) create as much hype as you can 2) throw in a few cameos 3) hero saves the day, no real stakes, and after a while they feel empty, they barely even try to find a good story as long as it delivers the cameos the fans want. DC although some of their movies are the worst movies ever, they have at least delivered some way better movies than Marvel has or ever will make
The MCU is all about cohesion. Yes they may have dropped a plot point or two here and there but overall the entire story is woven together. I watch marvel movies with a squad of 8 people and every time we leave the theater we ask the same question “how will this effect the story” because everything is intertwined in some way. That is what I believe makes the MCU so great! This guy kind of said it best in another comment “the mcu is legit like a ongoing drama tv show it always leaves you wanting to know what happens next” I can give a million examples of cohesion but I’ll do the obvious ones. Wanda vision tv show literally set up the entire doctor strange film (and at the end Monica Rambo is going to space with the skrulls secret invasion/the marvels). Almost every project even earlier on was getting you ready for the next film and now tv shows. Again I agree some plot points may be dropped but the overall story is because of cohesion we wouldn’t even have a “story” with all this connectivity that goes on it’s literally impressive and bold because it’s at the point now where if you go watch a movie without seeing the tv show you may legit not know what the hell is going on. That’s absolutely nuts that the story has gotten so big they can create a tv show to really dive deep into a plot then bring it all together for an actual film. Hell even the first avengers movie if you didn’t watch the thor films you’d be like “who the hell is this dude with giant gold horns and why does his blonde hair brother hate him so much” or when tony showed up while cap was fighting Loki and said to Natasha “you miss Me” with out watching the iron man films you’d never know that black widow was “working” for tony beforehand. There are so many little lines that are said that reference something from the past movies like when the wasp said “we’re on it cap” and ant man smiles at her because in the prior ant man film hope always made fun of Scott for saying “cap” the cohesion isn’t just plot points it’s the legit interactions and relationships between the characters themselves. Sorry for the long response.
The MCU delivers consistency. It consistently makes fun movies that are well-made with a few exceptions that aren't as good while the DCEU is the opposite...mostly mediocre to bad movies with a few exceptions that are genuinely really good. Like John said, the general non-comic purist audience is conditioned to expect a good time if they go see an MCU movie while they've been conditioned to expect a more mediocre time if they go see a DCEU movie. That audience is going to be more inclined to wait and see how DCEU movies are reviewed before they go see them whereas we've seen with Multiverse and Madness and Love and Thunder, they're still going to flock to an MCU movie even if it gets lesser reviews.
Agree and disagree. If you look at the DCEU, you could say that they are 50/50. Some top tier, some ok and some that are eh. You can someone say that about the MCU. Iron Man is great, the rest of the solo origin films are ok. Sequel to Iron was ok. Thor sequel was eh. But Cap sequel was great. What you nailed it on was the they made solid fun movies. Four quadrant movies with action, drama and humor that appeal to the majority of people.
How about hiring on a consistent basis directors who DON’T hate your top superhero characters. If I hear the word deconstruction one more time in relation to something like Plastic Man I’ll scream.
I agree what Robert said, MCU Characters more relatable.Even they're superheroes, they have issues,just like Humans do no matter what status is, rich or poor .MCU characters have,trials and tribulations,and overcoming their issues,
Exactly. The reason why no one cared about about superman’s death was because it was so rushed. Meaning that in the 2ND movie he had already died. Iron Man dying was very later on in the MCU in Endgame. Therefore that’s why Iron Man’s death hit harder.
I don’t think that’s true. I would argue the most famous superheroes in the world are mostly DC. Just take Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, those 3 are global icons and numerous iterations of them existed before the DCEU. Whereas before the MCU, characters like Iron Man, Cap and Thor were not known hugely well known and only had very obscure screen adaptations. DC had audience familiarity on their side already and they still messed it up, whereas Marvel had to win audiences over to make their characters culturally relevant. The MCU told its stories better and more relatably than the DCEU, I really think this is one of the main reasons for their success.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Lack of cohesion, lack of direction, too much controversy, lack of a recognised tone for the universe. DC characters are super known, they could/should be hugely successful.
Yeah, Warner brothers has been cursed. Amber heard is going to weigh down aqua man 2 and Ezra miller will assure Flash is doa.
And it's not like they have inferior characters, in fact go to any country and show them the Superman shield and 9 times out of 10 they will recognize it.
I hated that Snyder made the DC films some dark and depressing universe
Uge
@@701delbronx8 but didn’t Chris Nolan do that too before , with the Batman trilogy?
Honestly the MCU deserves its success, many people don't talk enough about the fact that they built a successful cinematic universe by starting with D and C list characters (minus Hulk), the fact that they did that without using their most popular characters ( X-Men and Fantastic Four, even Spider-Man in the beginning ) is incredible.
i think DC just doesn't want to work hard, just reboot Batman when you are in doubt
Nope. Iron Man, The Hulk, Captain America, and Thor have always been A-list characters in the comic world.
He’s right, the movies are just better. The character development has always been better with Marvel movies so the audience cares more. Kevin Feige has always said, it’s all about the characters
I think the main reason why the MCU is the most successful movie franchise of all time, 3000 times better than the DCEU, is because Marvel Studios has amazing well-written stories, beautifully designed heroes and villains, and talented visionary directors and writers. But the story and design isn't the only thing making the MCU an iconic Marvel of cinema, Marvel Studios also has something DC doesn't: a dedicated creative leader. Kevin Feige, the President of Marvel Studios, truly understands the Marvel Universe and recreates its amazing stories in cinematic detail, all of these stories were adapted into movies and shows that would inevitably follow Kevin's one creative vision.
Even if some MCU movies and shows are viewed as failures by some, Kevin never gives up. He understands the source material as a whole; he takes parts of the comics' storylines and adapts it into Hollywood Cinema. All of that makes Kevin Feige a great visionary leader.
That is what makes the MCU successful as it is today.
DC doesn't have to be cohesive. Just make good stories that fit the characters. Don't make a dark Superman just to fit in with Batman.
the way snyder fundamentally did not understand both clark kent AND superman as characters in man of steel ruined the movie for me. he focused more on the cold alien kryptonian side than what superman is truly about. he is not human by nature he is human by nurture. and none of his true character was personified in the snyderverse, which is why people think he’s the worst hero or a plain and boring john doe. it’s so disappointing that dc’s flagship hero was so bastardized tbh.
I loved man of steel.
@@princeofallsayians1551 superman is the last hero that needs an origin story. and like i said before, he was portrayed as a cold alien (which, yes, he is from another planet) but he had been raised as a human his entire life, and that whole side of him was thrown away for what? a shitty movie. though, i enjoyed it at the time, the rewatch value is nothing compared to a marvel film i’ll say that.
Consistent leadership and vision is the difference. MCU has had it, DC has been completely all over the place in that regard
The answer is Stan Lee. He didn't want to be like Batman and Superman. Stan Lee wanted his characters to have real problems like real people . That is the answer.
The MCU is doing what the DCAU did in the 90s and early 2000s. If the DCEU were more like the DCAU, they’re success would’ve been more impactful. Feige and everyone he hired are Marvel fans who respect the material. WB just has suits making those movies who are not fans of the source material.
Why people get this so wrong? Campea and his crew gave the one and only real reason. Marvel films are just overall more reletable and better to the general movie goin audience. I prefer DC films much better but the reality is that DC films are for some sectors of the audience. Even TDK is a phenom in popculture but it took a magical performance by Ledger to connect with the audience.
Rob hit it on the head. DC forgot to give their characters "Character".
Also, No follow through.
I agree don’t get me wrong I love dc it’s just they are making modern Greek gods myth out of dc characters
I disagree. .. Ironman promised the Avengers then went on to assemble the team and we waited for it, movie after movie till the team came together. We all took the journey and brought out family with us. Marvel simply built something. Dc never truly did.
Thank you so eine who gets it DC just throws a film at the wall and hope it sticks. People keep forgetting also 2 of the next DC films are riddled with controversy and potential money loss due to two of the main actors.
in my opinion "the avengers" was so much more of a well thought out film then something like "batman vs superman" or "the force awakens." It made the audience curious to see what was going to happen next.
Christopher Reeves Superman despite all of his powers and abilities couldn't save Lois from dying in the earthquake. You feel his pain. You want this travesty not to happen. And because Superman is the personification of hope, he flew around the world so fast that his force reverses time. As a Young child watching that, it was the coolest thing I ever saw a superhero did. Reeves is always my Superman.
Quality plain and simple
Mcu actually had a plan from the beginning, the people behind the camera actually cared for the movies to be good, Kevin feige is a experienced leader and he is a real fan, sure mcu has it's problems, especially in recent that the producers care about quantity more than quality, but still they know what they are doing, unlike the dceu leaders that have no idea how to use dc characters
Rob nailed it. I love Superman and in MoS I wanted so much more of Clark just facing life. My favorites scenes from that movie were him working on the boat or in that diner and watching him restraining himself from that bully. I just felt like they leaped too quickly from ‘that’ Clark to all of a sudden Superman having to save the human race from annihilation. Yes, a lot of ppl might’ve hated that approach bc it moved too slow but I personally would’ve loved it.
I think Rob hit the nail on the head in regards to characterization. You do get a better sense of who these characters are as a person before they become the superhero. Tony Stark, Iron Man, billionaire playboy, sees how his business is affecting other people and decides to change his ways. Captain America's sense of honor and duty as the average Joe before getting his powers that helped him shape who he is. Even Doctor Strange, he was a stereotypical surgeon who thought himself above everyone else, until he's brought back down to Earth before he gets his powers.
@@dcmastermindfirst9418 Well... that's like... your opinion, man. I'm not going to get into a Marvel vs DC. Batman is my favorite comicbook character, but as far as movie franchises go, the MCU has had a better track record. But again... I'm not going to debate which universe is better.
@@dcmastermindfirst9418 Do you like every single movie that wins the Oscar for Best Film? Do you like every single movie everyone else likes? If your answer is anything but no, then you proved your argument is faulty. Movies are subjective... facts are objective. I did not care for The Batman, but I did think it was the most "Batman" movie made. I think "The Dark Knight" is a far superior Batman movie to "The Batman." I also enjoyed "No Way Home" much more than "The Batman." The fact that the movie had more Saturn award nominations is cool. It doesn't change my opinion that I just did not care for "The Batman." And believe me... I really wanted to. So you can spout all nominations whatever... it won't sway my opinion.
MCU has better writers, directors, producers and....they have KEVIN FEIGE.
Kevin Feige understand the Marvel characters (although there's some directors and writers that don't), and he brought from the comics what makes them special in the first place, the heroes they are and that spark that makes them tick, he brought with his vision the heart and hope these heroes have in the comics. He didn't try to make them more "grounded" or anything like that. In the first phase of the MCU, Feige showed us classic stories of these heroes, he didn't change them to exists in "today's world", he just told classic, pure superhero, light hearted stories and adapt them in today's world. He brought heroes that believed in justice and truth, that's why it worked. Snyder and WB, did the opposite with Superman, he treated him like the Nolan's Batman and that's why it failed to appeal to many people. Snyder and WB do not understand the DC characters because they don't understand what makes them heroes or special in the first place.
The most grounded dc movies r their best. I understand not every movie has to be grounded ans realistic but that's y u have the Dceu, movies like the joker and the batman are great and their more for adults who don't wanna see campy cookie cutter movies
Lol a lot of people in the comments think their opinion represent the general audience 🤦♂️
For me personally the reason I like the MCU films and why I think they're higher rated than DCEU is that there's actual compelling and impactful storytelling taking place, its more than what its marketed aka just a bunch of cool Hollywood action fight scenes and it develops Characters like a soap opera that makes you want to tune back in and get your fix of the MCU. In BvS (2016), the studio marketed that this would be a crazy crossover with superheroes on both sides fighting each other, and I left the film personally thinking wow... it had Batman and Superman fighting each other. In Civil War they marketed that we'd be getting a crazy crossover with heroes on both sides fighting each other, but instead of again leaving the film thinking wow... a crazy crossover with Iron Man and Cap fighting each other, you leave the film feeling bad for Tony, questioning Caps morals and if he made the right choice, wondering how this fallout between these 2 heroes would affect the rest of the Avengers. Already you can see the dramatization is what's keeping people hooked to come back and see future projects. In BvS Supes just died and that's it... what are ppl supposed to look forward to other than the fact that they teased a few upcoming superheroes like Flash and Aquaman ??
Amen
You can cite the big superhero fight in “Civil War”, and if you /were/ a superhero or comic book fan, you thought, “Yeh!” because it was just like the comics.
And then the mega-superhero throw down at the end of “Endgame” was the frakkin’ motherload…
Instead of creating movies with DC characters as they are in the comics, Zach Snyder wanted to do this "Burnt-Sky-Muted-Color Slo-Mo Nightmare Vision" of an Evil Superman and battered superheroes.
Rob’s right about the characters being relatable. As a character in either universe, I would much rather hang out with the MCU heroes if I were to ever meet them as civilians than any of the DCEU heroes if I’m being honest.
Movies are about "Entertainment". They should entertain and MCU gets that
True
10:25 - Not only is he a nerd, but he was a cartoonist. A lot of people don't talk about what Steve's job was before he was a soldier, but he was an illustrator. You see this when he was doodling in Italy, and in a deleted scene from Avengers where he was sketching Stark tower.
Simple answer: they had a Kevin Fiegie instead of DC executives. DC executives have sabotaged the DCEU from nearly the beginning for bonuses, due to them leaving or going, lack of care for the source material and just wanting MCU $, disputes with talent like directors like having a trailer editing firm edit a movie, etc. Regardless how people feel about Snyder, the executives choosing him and then not properly working with him on bvs with same critiques from mo's following bvs despite 3 years to avoid those same critiques was not being good producers. DCEU executives rushed the DCEU to try to get avengers $. It's important what executives are in charge. Love or hate the MCU, Kevin Fiegie has great experience with producing and assisting producers of marvel films and is a marvel comics fan who has had a vision and not just chase avengers $. Making guardians was a BIG RISK. So was bp and captain marvel. So was antman. Meanwhile DC executives have tried to milk batman since 1989 for all the characters worth meanwhile we still dont have a mos or superman sequel to a film that came out almost 10 years ago.
Correction:- WB executives xD
So true. And without Guardians Warner would never have made movies like Shazam because Guardians showed them that you could get a lot of money with unknown characters.
@@akhiltrg4087 thank you. But adds to my point that DC doesn't even have it's own in house studio up until Zslav. Yikes
@@Thed538dhsk yikes indeed
People are getting tired of seeing Batman films. People want to see something new. Feige had years to bring in the right producers, writers, directors, etc...to work in the MCU.
I'm personally one of them. I haven't even been alive that long and i've gotten batman fatigue both in the comics and live action.
@@Blballerboy I know right. I guess people are tired of the 3rd reboot of Spider-Man as well?😅🤣😂
@@TerrellAustin1994 It was called the DCEU or DCFU; not the Batman and Friends show.
@@Blballerboy I say above average. This is 3rd film franchise that RP has been in. If he's not hitting in the Billions, then his star power is starting to fade.
@@FriendlyBatDoom They(SONY, DISNEY/MARVEL) pulled it off to hugely success. WB was trying to do a multiple Batman appearance("BATMAN FLASHPOINT"); and that movie keeps getting pushed back.
Single reason: consistent leadership.
Hence no Henry cavil as Superman, and no Batman that I thought batfleck could be to come up with contingency plans for any of them, they could have done it, I mean the blueprint as there, and they never developed there characters enough to make a cohesive group, and john has a point the mcu has made better movies, that they can connect for the audience up till endgame hell even no way home!!
Consistent leadership at the top plays such a big part with this. You have to have great leadership at the top…in any business.
Top G
Personally I think it's because the MCU has done the job step by step without rushing things, the DCEU started fine with MOS but for three years they didn't make any projects to extend the "universe" that Zack Snyder established. The MCU didn't bet all to just one director, they have hired several directors and writers that can add different angles for different characters but all pointing in the same direction. The DCEU (or WB) decided to bet all to just ONE director and, while for a period of three years they could've made at least two stand alone movies to expand their universe, instead they rushed things up with BvS (great movie by the way) being the prelude for JL, a superhero team with members wich back story were basically unknown for many. The MCU established several characters out there with several movies on their own and when it was time for the first Avengers movie their gathering felt very organic because most of the standalone stories were already told and they didn't feel the need of making a 4 hour movie. The MCU introduced a character like black panther and the land of wakanda little by little: first a mention of it, then gave us T'Challa as a secondary character AND THEN his own movie, same with spiderman. The DCEU somehow forced the some things like the Mother Boxes with no background until the JL movie, movies like Suicide Squad felt kinda weird because most of those character belong to a "batverse" but we haven't had a proper batman movie within the DCEU that can introduce those characters, including some like Nightwing or Batgirl. I like both brands, I really do even I have little inclination more to DC, but frankly I wished the DCEU were more like the MCU... Just from an administrative focus
I see what ur saying about relatability, but I've always felt the same way with DC heroes. People who relate to Batman just because he's human, miss the point of Superman. Tbh Superman is the most relatable superhero. He was raised by good, hardworking people on a good set of morals. He tries do the right thing. Help others. As clark (who he identifies as) he rushes to meet a deadline. Tries to get the girl of his dreams. Calls into his parents every once in awhile to say: "hey I'm ok. How are you guys?". He exercises, drinks a beer cuase he likes it. People need to see past the surface level. And see that DC heroes are much more then their powers. And only the best DC stories prove that. They need that in their live action movies to mix perfectly with the action too of course
The problem is a subconscious thing besides the vs forum threads don't help
I leave it to you in Batman vs Hulk And analyze your thoughts and what are the things that come to your mind.
You nailed it. I never related to Superman as a person. Spider-Man, well, Peter Parker was me. The better Batman movies are about Bruce Wayne’s humanity, not his gadgets. I have not seen Shazam or Aquaman but now I want to, if they are relatable characters. Good points.
Marvel had a headstart and when dc decided to have a connected universe the people in charge in WB overreacted to critics and started dismantling their own universe.
Man of Steels problems have nothing to do with the relatability of the main character. The problem is simple. The Director!!! Stick to the character development in the comics for each individual character.
Yes and no. MOS was quite a good film (that may have not stuck the landing). It’s biggest issue and why it didn’t make more money is that it wasn’t a 4 quadrant fun/entertaining film. Marvel excels in that (until recently) and that’s why they are so popular.
People that say Superman is boring. I want you to look at Spiderman: Homecoming. That movie is so intricate and fun.
Now imagine if Jon Watts read a Spider-Man comic where Peter Parker wonders around being sad the whole issue, and decided to make that particular comic his main inspiration for his movie trilogy.
Well that’s basically what happened with Mos and Bvs.
Now imagine if we got 2 Superman movies before the first JL movie they did, and they more closely resembled the recent Man of Tomorrow animated movie that came out. Or if his childhood was more portrayed like Smallville.
that's right! Tyler Hoechlin's Superman in the superb SUPERMAN AND LOIS TV series is the way to go - not only totally relatable (like all the characters in the series!) but also likable. Youcare about him! Though Cavill is iconic inthe role, he is distant and cold, unlike Christopher Reeves who was also very likable.
Exactly! And the Cavill's version has everything to be a good Superman, but WB and Snyder ruined it by make him more "edgy" to make him look more like the Christopher Nolan's Batman because that Batman was more grounded and so, and WB forgot what makes Superman special, that's why the Sam Raimi Spider-Man is so beloved, because he brought what makes Spider-Man special and how light hearted he is no matter the shitty situations he faced, the MCU did the same thing. And Snyder and WB didn't do that with Superman, that's why they failed in competing with the MCU.
Yes, it really is that simple. The general movie going audience have decided that they will most likely enjoy a Marvel movie compared to something from DC. You can have any plot and add any messaging you want but none of that matters if at the end of the day you don't answer the most important question..."will I be entertained?".
Marvel made a promise and fullfilled it without dropping the ball. bit lose at times but it worked. Now go listen to a promise from the avengers soundtrack and get goosebumps.
Nic Cage should play Nick Fury.
Pretty much!
Marvel is an everyday hero universe.
DC is the gods living among us universe.
Different tone is needed for different universes.
I think you can make the DC characters everyday heroes.
I think they could have different tones and still be positive. MoS, BvS, and Justice Leauge, all Snyder projects, through out decades of character definition to make them gritty and killers. That isn't the tone that Superman needs. (He may benefit from gritty, but didn't have to become a killer...) I think they struck that wrong chord with two of the big three and couldn't unring that bell afterward.
I always felt like Captain America had New York, Superman had Metropolis, Batman had Gotham, Tony had California and pretty much every other state in the USA. The thing is, it’s harder to make sponsorships/relationships with cities that aren’t real. Idk that’s my opinion.
Very simple. His name is Kevin.
Robert and Kris are overthinking this. You can still make good movies despite not relating to the characters. Not being able to relate to the characters did not affect any of the movies RT score. They mentioned that they could not relate to WW, but that was critically successful and a box office success. And I would even argue that she did have relatable qualities during that movie.
John nailed it on the head. They did not make great movies to start and now the reputation is in the mud. People have mixed opinions about Man of Steel, the general audience felt that Batman vs Superman was bad, the general audience hated Suicide Squad, and the general audience despised Justice League. If that's four out of your first 5 movies then you have a major problem. The first 5 MCU movies were Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Thor 1, Captain America 1, and The Avengers. If your reputation is in the mud then it's hard to get out of it. It does not really matter if Aquaman, Shazam, and The Suicide Squad are good. They came out the gate with bad films.
That and their movies are 4 quadrant films that appeal to more audiences. That’s something DC hasn’t consistently done (did so with WW, Aquaman and Shazam).
@@valaja1458 Yup. Don't really think that 'appealing to more audiences' thing really matter. You could have a good shared universe if you just make good movies. You could simple down mostly all movies to make characters and the stories relatable.
Disney/Marvel announced they were going to create a cinematic connected universe leading up to the Avengers years ago. WB/DC dared them and Marvel called their bluff in 2012 imo of course.
It is still too general and subjective. The more specifically, MCU stories are psychologically have a lot in common with majority people: sentimental, contemplative, cheerful and tell you conservative moral story.
In other hand, DCEU stories are too gloomy, dark, too serious. Only few people related to how DCEU stories written.
Its because of stability as the MCU is operated by Disney to where the DCEU & WB has had many different ownerships & now recently Discovery.
Robert is spot on marvel characters are relatable. DC characters seems like mythical figures. For God stake marvel characters are here amongst us.
While I agree that a lot of the DCEU movies are not well-made, I think John is separating quality of movie from lack of buildup from previous movies as if those were two unrelated issues, when in the case of the team-up movies ( _Justice League_ versus _The Avengers_ ) those two went hand-in-hand. _The Avengers_ worked because we already knew five of the six Avengers from previous movies. The only Avenger who didn't really get a proper introduction in a previous movie was Hawkeye (he got just a brief cameo in _Thor_ ). So we already connected to these characters and now it was exciting to see them all stumble together into the same world for the first time. Whereas for _Batman v. Superman_ and _Justice League_ , aside from Superman and Wonder Woman (the only ones to get their own standalone movies before _JL_ ) we didn't know these people from Adam. They were essentially just strangers with powers. _BvS_ could've been so much better if we had gotten a standalone Batman movie before that where we got to see who this version of Batman was and where he was coming from. The DCEU movies have a lot of problems but one of the biggest ones was, yes, the lack of character building, whether because that wasn't happening in the standalone movies or because there were no standalone movies for so many of the main characters.
The DCEU movies just are not entertaining for the vast majority of people. They have moments here and here in films.. And I love DC comics. I would rather rewatch a handful of their animated films than most of their "DCEU" films.
That's why the Superman in Lois and Clark imo is the best Superman. Him having kids and worrying about them makes him incredibly relatable.
Please never attempt an impression of Samuel L. Jackson ever again, John.
Nic Cage as Nick Fury*
*Kevin Feige knows best*
We've had : Joker, Man of Steel (your favorite film John), I like Birds of Prey, The Batman, Shazam, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, The Suicide Squad, Batman v Superman Ultimate Cut especially. Then if we're gonna go outside of dceu, TDK TRILOGY, WATCHMEN, V FOR VENDETTA, there's a lot of great dc films
I liked Birds of Prey, but they should have had Cassandra Cain surprise us in being able defend herself, and Batgirl/Barbara Gordon should have been involved at some point. I also would have made Black Mask's less definite. The film also need some more male presence.
Then I would say its that it came in the wrong order, wrong time.
It’s because Zach Snyder had no business creating the DCEU
Cause the DCEU is awful. That is why.
is getting better now
The only bad movies were the BvS and Justice League. Even then the extended cut of BvS is ok and Snyder cut Justice League is better than most MCU movies. DCEU made A LOT of mistakes but it's underrated.
Rob fcking NAILED it!!
The REAL reason why the MCU films have been more successful is simple. Marvel Comics established their own film studio, and though they didn’t have the rights to their most iconic heroes (having sold them off in the 90s), the knowledge, understanding, and respect for the source material they had to work with allowed them to make good films, and turn second tier characters like Iron Man into top tier characters.
DC Comics doesn’t have this luxury. They sold ALL the film rights to their ENTIRE catalogue of characters to Warner Media, so the people making the decisions at Warner Bros. are people who have no knowledge, understanding, or respect for the source material.
Warner Media has owned DC since the 70s.
while I like the darker tone of some of the DC stuff, it speaks volumes that the most highly rated DCEU film, Shazam, is the most MCU like movie they've made.
I think it really hurt DC that they put Zach Snyder's films out front. They were a consistent vision, but they were a vision that irked many long time fans. There's a reason that the most popular DC movies on that list aren't the biggest characters that were handled by Snyder. They both tried a consistent vision, but Fiege's was one that was appreciated by general audiences and comic fans alike. (winks and nods as needed to make up for any changes.) I liked the first half of Man of Steel, but by the end he lost me in breaking from decades of experience of Superman doesn't kill. And BvS broke Batman's decades of Batman doesn't kill. Such a big break from the stories that have stood for so long were too much a stretch and I couldn't get behind them.
Edit from late in the video: YES! What Robert said. Man of Steel is a very cool first contact story. But it's not THE Superman story. So why make compromises to what we know for a story you want to tell. Tell your story. If you want to make a Superman movie, build on or re-interpret his core points. It's like having a cool sci fi story with interesting bad guys that aren't Klingons, but you get picked up by Star Trek so you tell your story and say the Klingon's used to be this way. NO! Make your own story if you have a good one. If you want to tell Star Trek stories, build on the lore. I'll get off my soapbox now. :-)
Don’t agree with everything you said or Rob, but agree that Marvel gears it’s film for general audiences and comic fans. DC has geared more to the fans and older audiences.
Yeah I felt absolutely nothing when Superman died in bvs even though Superman is my favorite character ever. Snyder failed to humanize Superman or make me believe the people of that earth would actually care if he died. I could watch an entire movie where the avengers just hang out whereas with dc I don’t wanna see those assholes Superman and Batman in anything ever. They’re bad representations of Batman and Superman. That’s why they’re both successful in every other medium except the dceu.
Marvel just got better characters Plain and simple
Very true about the relatability. I think that is why even Joker was so great. It showed you just how human he was until his life made him feel he couldn’t be human anymore.
That's like a disappointing father type of talk - depressing but true: "Strip away all the superpowers, special effects, explosions, CGI, and cool costumes, and is your movie even worth watching anymore?"
I love how all the mcu spider-man movies are very high in the list
Same
MCU casting is impeccable. Even in movies you might not like, the actors are always on point.
You're guys are right about the characters being more relatable but I'm going to add another reason to the list. Marvel ever since Stan Lee took over had pretty strong internal cohesion because everything was being created by the same creative team and could add to the universe as they went along. Well DC has had a long history of buying out or suing other comic book publishers and adding those characters into the DC universe. So they are just constintally having to add in more character and force it all work together. That's why well Marvel has had a few reboots and sliding time scale as the years have gone by it is still all works as a cohesive universe. well DC has had huge continuity resets now on almost a yearly bases because they give up on one idea and just wipe the board and start over but that just turns more people away because if everything keeps getting reset nothing feels like it matters anymore. So people has just lost faith in DC comics over the years, I know I have, well Marvel, with a few hiccups here and there has managed to keep things going without screwing up there own continuity too bad and has managed to keep reward it's audience for sticking with them for so long.
I think the biggest reason as to why the MCU has been more successful than the DCEU is something that I think a lot of people have forgotten over the years, the MCU is arguably the biggest reason as to why superheroes are as popular with the mainstream public as they are now, now obviously there had been beloved superhero movies before the MCU like the original Superman, Batman Begins, X-Men etc. but those were made during a time where superheroes were still a niche market, they were made during the period of time where you’d get laughed at and called a nerd for saying you like superheroes, but once the MCU came along they created a universe that felt like it was making an effort to appeal to those who thought superheroes were dumb beforehand, and it worked, when people walked out of the first Iron Man they had the reaction of “Y’know I’m not even a superhero guy but Tony Stark was pretty cool” They did the same thing with Captain America, they took a character who was arguably the biggest laughingstock of the superhero world and made him into a total badass, whether you’re more of a DC fan or not I think you have to acknowledge that the MCU is what helped the world of superheroes become the thriving part of pop culture it is today, so to me I think that’s the biggest reason as to why the MCU has always been more successful
“If you refuse to world build, then you don’t deserve a world at all !” From Martha on How Justice League Should Have Ended.
Facts!
I would say who comes first serves first. They were the first to come up with the idea of a cinematic universe and with that they have built a huge and loyal fanbase.
The highest grossing DC film to date is Aquaman
Just let that sink in. Aquaman.
The character that was a punchline in jokes for years and he's the winner.
Which goes to show its about the film, the spectacle and finding ways to make the lead character charismatic and compelling when pop culture has not.
I call Aquaman , Jason Momoa the Movie. If Momoa jumps ship to the MCEU than Feige should just let Momoa play himself.
It was the most fun entertaining film that appeal to the most people. A 4 quadrant film which is what Marvel has excelled in until recently.
Kevin Feige one side vs. Warner Bros. execs on the other. That's why
True.The catastrophic leadership at WB didn´t help much.
Yeah they tampered with each film and even made them less connected
From my perspective as a casual superhero fan DCU takes itself way to serious. MCU movies are just more entertaining to watch imo.
Only a few marvel movies more entertaining most of them captain America movies
MCU wa focused on doing their own thing while the DCEU was playing catchup.
Like that Michael Phelps meme:
"Losers focus on winners...
Winners focus on winning"
'Better movies' is basically a summary of all the failures of the DCEU that are why it has failed where the MCU succeeded. While I disagree, heavily, with certain rankings on that list granted it's based on Rotten Tomatoes scores - Man of Steel isn't up there. And Rob nails part of that on the head - and why I can not like that film. Yes, Superman is a Kryptonian, he gets these fantastic powers - but he was raised as a human, he is very much still human, he was raised by people with a set of values that reflected the best of what America could be, that he should use these powers for good and to help - but in the 78 film, despite all his powers, he can not save his father from the heart attack - even with time travel it may not be enough in the 70's. Despite these god like powers, he is not perfect, nor is he all powerful, he can not save everyone, can't always decide who lives and dies. Snyder threw that all away - and the film suffered for it, for him letting his dad die, for him not being more careful in how he fights, all of it. 1989 batman works (and is way too far down on the list compared to the new film) because Bruce sure is rich - but is 'eccentric billionaire' Bruce Wayne, he's weird, awkward, a little off - despite being rich he's really still just kinda the weird kid at school and all. He's still relatable as a person past the money, especially to some of us that weren't great with socializing. Also the lines and delivery are memorable and all while the new one has so many issues in dumb writing to count.
Wonder Woman worked because sure she's basically an immortal demi-goddess, but she's still a person, still seems human if out of her element, and a well written story where as the other one just... the writing fell apart there entirely and some of the decisions just... yeah. While some people will argue he's not really how Aquaman should be - then again that depends which version you want the age old joke or the bad-a** of the seas, 'Bro-Drogo' Aquaman still works cause he's a dude and can kick ass. Shazam it needed some help in writing, and better advisors and all if they wanted to put it in Philly cause there's a lot off as someone that comes from that area, but still it's very much what you'd expect of a kid getting superpowers. I'm weird, I like 2016 Suicide Squad more than the new one cause I feel it did a better job with certain things, especially with some of what was cut. But overall - as someone who grow up more with DC than Marvel - overall, it's quality and faithfulness to characters is dragging it down.
Kevin Feige. Nuff said.
It's a mix between the MCU making better movies with a real sense of heart, good character work and the fact that the Main Six (minus The Hulk) were basically non-entities in Mainstream Pop Culture at the time. People know inately when they are experiencing a good story, it's really one of our main traits as a species, info sharing.
WB meddling with every movie after Man of Steel and second-guessing themselves is also a factor.
And BVS was rushed, we should‘ve gotten solo Affleck Batman and MOS Sequel first. Never understand why Suicide Squad was the 3rd movie.
Marvel and MCU films in general always made good movies
I think DCEU was trying too hard not to be themselves. DCEU had personal identity but didn’t want to embrace it. That’s what I think
I thing Rob is right.
And I feel like that’s why the more successful DCEU films (Shazam, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, etc) made it more about the characters and gave audiences reason to relate to them.
Is the MCU vs DCEU argument even up for debate anymore?
No, but someone is reflecting back and now asking “why and how” and it’s a fair discussion to have
While the MCU has been better and more successful, it is sort of baffling that it’s gone that way considering DC has the more popular and well known superheroes.
You are right, DC does have more popular and well known superheroes, which is why it’s an even bigger testament to Kevin Feige’s leadership that he was able to overtake DC and turn several C list Marvel characters into hot box office properties. The MCU has made its obscure characters more culturally relevant than DC could with their already known ones. That’s the power of good storytelling.
DC's Last DCEU film was The Suicide Squad and that was released in August last year and next one is Black Adam which releases in October, between The Suicide Squad and Black Adam MCU released Shang Chi, Eternals, Spider Man No Way Home, Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness and Thor Love and Thunder so yeah
One of the things I think Superman 2 did so well with the fight in Metropolis was using the spectators to kick in the emotion. These people have been conquered by three Kryptonians (not that they know what a Kryptonian is) and they have one hope that they are relying on. And he shows up and they are elated. But then the movie showed how the realization starts setting in that their expected deliverance is not going to come. Then their champion falls and they are so upset they try to take matters into their own hands (which predictably goes poorly) and finally they are confronted by the one they thought would save them flying away and they are in disbelief. They are just staring up into the sky in shock. Nolan also did a good job of building up the Gotham's relationship with Batman in the Dark Knight rises when he shows the reaction of the every day cop on the street when Batman shows up after a hiatus and he is like, "You are in for a show tonight!" While we might not be able to relate to the hero we can certainly relate to the average citizen and how they feel about the hero.
There's really not much cohesion with Marvel. Some plot threads have been straight up dropped, some have divided into weird directions. I think what helped with MCU was consistency. They didn't have this weird "let's fire Snyder and slam in Whedon" for Avengers like WB did for Justice League. WB doubts and second guesses themselves way too often. The only time Marvel did that was with Incredible Hulk. And even then, they piled so many other movies in Hulk's place. The DCEU dividing and having Wonder Woman and Aquaman separate feels weird. Ben Affleck not having a solo Batman movie feels weird. The fact that Justice League 2 was dropped feels weird. And the Flash movie sounds like a mess.
All people want is Justice League 2, a solo Batman movie, and Henry Cavill doing a Man of Tomorrow movie. But DC being DC wants to learn the hard way and they've fluttered off into divided solo movies that don't connect. Nobody wants The Flash that throws everything away when they already did that with The Joker and The Batman.
The MCU is all about cohesion. Yes they may have dropped a plot point or two here and there but overall the entire story is woven together. I watch marvel movies with a squad of 8 people and every time we leave the theater we ask the same question “how will this effect the story” because everything is intertwined in some way. That is what I believe makes the MCU so great! This guy kind of said it best in another comment “the mcu is legit like a ongoing drama tv show it always leaves you wanting to know what happens next” I can give a million examples of cohesion but I’ll do the obvious ones. Wanda vision tv show literally set up the entire doctor strange film (and at the end Monica Rambo is going to space with the skrulls secret invasion/the marvels). Almost every project even earlier on was getting you ready for the next film and now tv shows. Again I agree some plot points may be dropped but the overall story is because of cohesion we wouldn’t even have a “story” with all this connectivity that goes on it’s literally impressive and bold because it’s at the point now where if you go watch a movie without seeing the tv show you may legit not know what the hell is going on. That’s absolutely nuts that the story has gotten so big they can create a tv show to really dive deep into a plot then bring it all together for an actual film. Hell even the first avengers movie if you didn’t watch the thor films you’d be like “who the hell is this dude with giant gold horns and why does his blonde hair brother hate him so much” or when tony showed up while cap was fighting Loki and said to Natasha “you miss Me” with out watching the iron man films you’d never know that black widow was “working” for tony beforehand. There are so many little lines that are said that reference something from the past movies like when the wasp said “we’re on it cap” and ant man smiles at her because in the prior ant man film hope always made fun of Scott for saying “cap” the cohesion isn’t just plot points it’s the legit interactions and relationships between the characters themselves. Sorry for the long response.
The answer is more simpler than whats been said and that is that it was just planned better from the very beginning and they stuck to that plan, were there modifications along the way? Yes, but the vision/idea was already set.
These are all very dumb arguments. I thought John’s points couldn’t get any worse, then I heard Rob’s🙄. Tony Stark is not more relatable than Clark Kent and Billy Batson, to me. I could relate to Arthur’s struggle between two worlds in Aquaman. The problem is not with relatability. The problem is not box office. The early DCEU performed very well, financially. If anyone expected them to be billion dollar movies just because their brand names are to be blamed for their faulty logic. Just because Marvel was getting billions on their B-list superheroes, doesn’t guarantee that your A-list characters will perform the same or better. John was half right about the fans and why they preferred MCU, they have faith in the next movie coming out. DC has to be word of mouth, while Marvel just has to do a little promotion to hit $700M+.
@@harrisonsims7680 are you also a “Genius, Billionaire, Playboy, Philanthropist” who can solve any problem with your intellect, engineering skills, and a futuristic armor that you’ve created for yourself? I didn’t think so. Superman will always be relatable as a character and what it means to be good, to be human, to have and to bring hope. Look past the powers and look at the characters for who they are, it’s very easy, trust me.
@@harrisonsims7680 he’s an addict because he’s bored and rich, that’s not very relatable.
Well said
Avengers worked because... Iron Man really worked
They chose a slightly darker approach with Zac Snyder that certainly some people like a lot, but they just aren’t as numerous as those who like the Marvel approach. Certainly there are other reasons. I absolutely loved that Tony Stark decided to forego having a secret identity. Very unexpected but I loved it.
I also think the expectations for superman,batman and the justice league are higher then then they was for ironman , cap and thor i think marvel had the liberty of using characters that at the time people did not have high expectations for as where man of steel is coming off the dark knight trilogy so people expected that same quality and it didnt deliver but i think your right john
To me I'm not the biggest fan of the MCU, all their movies have the same recipe 1) create as much hype as you can 2) throw in a few cameos 3) hero saves the day, no real stakes, and after a while they feel empty, they barely even try to find a good story as long as it delivers the cameos the fans want. DC although some of their movies are the worst movies ever, they have at least delivered some way better movies than Marvel has or ever will make
The MCU is all about cohesion. Yes they may have dropped a plot point or two here and there but overall the entire story is woven together. I watch marvel movies with a squad of 8 people and every time we leave the theater we ask the same question “how will this effect the story” because everything is intertwined in some way. That is what I believe makes the MCU so great! This guy kind of said it best in another comment “the mcu is legit like a ongoing drama tv show it always leaves you wanting to know what happens next” I can give a million examples of cohesion but I’ll do the obvious ones. Wanda vision tv show literally set up the entire doctor strange film (and at the end Monica Rambo is going to space with the skrulls secret invasion/the marvels). Almost every project even earlier on was getting you ready for the next film and now tv shows. Again I agree some plot points may be dropped but the overall story is because of cohesion we wouldn’t even have a “story” with all this connectivity that goes on it’s literally impressive and bold because it’s at the point now where if you go watch a movie without seeing the tv show you may legit not know what the hell is going on. That’s absolutely nuts that the story has gotten so big they can create a tv show to really dive deep into a plot then bring it all together for an actual film. Hell even the first avengers movie if you didn’t watch the thor films you’d be like “who the hell is this dude with giant gold horns and why does his blonde hair brother hate him so much” or when tony showed up while cap was fighting Loki and said to Natasha “you miss Me” with out watching the iron man films you’d never know that black widow was “working” for tony beforehand. There are so many little lines that are said that reference something from the past movies like when the wasp said “we’re on it cap” and ant man smiles at her because in the prior ant man film hope always made fun of Scott for saying “cap” the cohesion isn’t just plot points it’s the legit interactions and relationships between the characters themselves. Sorry for the long response.
Grounded characters and amazing casting.
Marvel makes movies with superheroes, but they are human stories
DC makes superhero movies, but without humanity.
The MCU delivers consistency. It consistently makes fun movies that are well-made with a few exceptions that aren't as good while the DCEU is the opposite...mostly mediocre to bad movies with a few exceptions that are genuinely really good. Like John said, the general non-comic purist audience is conditioned to expect a good time if they go see an MCU movie while they've been conditioned to expect a more mediocre time if they go see a DCEU movie. That audience is going to be more inclined to wait and see how DCEU movies are reviewed before they go see them whereas we've seen with Multiverse and Madness and Love and Thunder, they're still going to flock to an MCU movie even if it gets lesser reviews.
Agree and disagree. If you look at the DCEU, you could say that they are 50/50. Some top tier, some ok and some that are eh. You can someone say that about the MCU. Iron Man is great, the rest of the solo origin films are ok. Sequel to Iron was ok. Thor sequel was eh. But Cap sequel was great. What you nailed it on was the they made solid fun movies. Four quadrant movies with action, drama and humor that appeal to the majority of people.
How about hiring on a consistent basis directors who DON’T hate your top superhero characters. If I hear the word deconstruction one more time in relation to something like Plastic Man I’ll scream.
I agree what Robert said, MCU Characters more relatable.Even they're superheroes, they have issues,just like
Humans do no matter what status is, rich or poor .MCU characters have,trials and tribulations,and overcoming their issues,
The execs at WB should watch this, it’s all there.
I believe is character build up Iron man die and everyone cry 😢 Superman die no one cared
Exactly. The reason why no one cared about about superman’s death was because it was so rushed. Meaning that in the 2ND movie he had already died. Iron Man dying was very later on in the MCU in Endgame. Therefore that’s why Iron Man’s death hit harder.
@@znnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn5352 very true
I think it’s easier to sell Marvel characters to non comic readers than DC characters
DC heroes are more well known around the world. DC are just crappy sales men.
I don’t think that’s true. I would argue the most famous superheroes in the world are mostly DC. Just take Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, those 3 are global icons and numerous iterations of them existed before the DCEU. Whereas before the MCU, characters like Iron Man, Cap and Thor were not known hugely well known and only had very obscure screen adaptations. DC had audience familiarity on their side already and they still messed it up, whereas Marvel had to win audiences over to make their characters culturally relevant. The MCU told its stories better and more relatably than the DCEU, I really think this is one of the main reasons for their success.
I agree with you on that point.