Is Social Justice Infiltrating the Lutherans?
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- Pastor David Ramirez discusses the Lutheran Church and how it's fairing amidst the tumultuous social waters.
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As a student at the Wisconsin Synod's pre-seminary college, I think that Pastor Ramirez' analysis of the Lutheran landscape is spot on. I'm thankful for the many faithful, principled, and courageous (even if reluctantly so) Lutherans, but there are also attitudes spreading which are conducive to compromise. Please pray for us.
Also, thanks Pastor Ramirez for mentioning my favorite book That Hideous Strength! I highly recommend reading C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy.
Thank you for having a LCMS pastor. I attend a LCMS church. Most other denominations seem to think we’re not Christian or think we’re all ELCA.
I thought Lutherans were pretty liberal, it’s true. Once I listened to Chris Roseborough, I realized there still were Biblical Lutheran churches.
@@conservativemama3437 yes there are a lot of us out here. We’re probably more conservative than a lot of other denominations
A student at Concordia, Portland (one of those colleges now gone) in the late 70s' and early 80s', I was glad to see this interview. I was a teacher in the Lutheran Church Missouri System that Pastor Ramirez refers to so I know a bit about this subject and I found his statements to be very accurate. His description of the "state of the Lutheran Church" was excellent. Sadly, the ELCA is "gone" just as he stated. It has been difficult to watch woke ideas such as CRT being promoted in churches. I have learned a lot about the situation in the SBC mostly through your programs Jon and I appreciate your efforts. Informing Christians about these latest assaults on Biblical truth is extremely important. I agree with both of you that studying God's Word is the answer. Thanks for helping people understand the dangers of these worldly philosophies.
God's blessings...
I appreciate the honesty of Pastor Ramirez in describing the ELCA. I pastor a Bible church in an area where there are many ELCA churches and he is right on target.
Great guest, would love to hear him again
Great conversation! It’s encouraging to hear others are fighting the good fight.
May Paster Ramirez be blessed by GOD as he stands humbly against the world and the world's encroachment and corruption of the church. The barbarians have surmounted the gates and are amongst us and the battle is at hand and so we need strong, faithful leaders to bring each church and each member through these struggles.
I listen to Pastor Brian Wolfmueller’s messages regularly because he’s a darn good Bible teacher. I also have a Brother in law that attends a Lutheran church here in NC. I have watched this poison work thru the SBC & I pray for our church leaders to open their eyes & see how Satan’s lies are being not just allowed but shoved into churches.
Thank you for standing strong and being a Watchman on the wall!
We don’t have a wall, we need to build it and remove millions
Everyone should hear the 8 minute summary from these men of God.
It clarifies so much of our confusion.
I believe this pastor downplayed the serious problems in the LC-MS. We left our former LC-MS church in Tomball TX in May 2020 due to a variety of reasons. Our children attended LC-MS schools 2006-2018 (1st-12th). In 2018 parents at our children's former high school were concerned about the liberal teachers working and shared all sorts of stories about the teachers.
We knew something was wrong for years but couldn't figure out exactly what the problem was.....Sermons were 'light and fluffy', truth was rarely shared that might offend people in the pews and the worship music consisted of the most popular songs on the radio from Bethel, Elevation and Hillsong .......
When the SBC shared the documentary "By What Standards?" in 2019 we started connecting dots about our former church. My husband and I visited with our pastors and wanted to know where our LC-MS Church stood on topics like: social justice, homosexuality, Complementarianism, Marxism, etc. The pastors responses were vague on things at first and we weren't really sure if they even knew what was going on in our culture. We also were concerned with the worship services playing so much Bethel-Elevation-Hillsong music and had brought that to their attention. When BLM was in full swing the assistant youth director was encouraging the youth to come march for BLM. The pastor even gave an unusual sermon on race and tied in George Floyd. This church's reaction to Covid was more like CNN's. We finally figured out our former LC-MS church was a seeker-driven woke church. The Concordia University System was a mess when we first started visiting them when our children were in high school in 2015. We were so sad to discover that both the Concordia Universities we toured in Irvine CA and Austin TX were not Christian. The LC-MS is a mess especially in Tomball TX. We are now in a solid Bible-church under a very strong shepherd!! Jon Harris's podcasts and books helped us a lot the past few years. Thanks Jon!!
Any Lutheran church that has embraced Hillsong and other seeker friendly garbage is either Lutheran in name only, naive or ready to eject themselves entirely from the Lutheran church. Not just culturally,but more importantly doctrinally. The two things cannot exist. They try to Lutheranize Willow Creek or Hillsong. You can't.
You had to stay in the LCMS or to go to another confessional lutheran church, because of the theology. What do you mean with ''a solid Bible-church''? Do they have the law/gospel distinction, do they have the sacraments as Jesus's body and blood for you? And what does it mean ''church's reaction to Covid was more like CNN's''??? Covid is a pandemic and there is only one reaction to this, mask and vaccine. It is not a matter of theology.
Please keep these lines of communication open and active, Jon. Excellent show!
This pastor is very well spoken and convicted - pse raise up and disciple young future leaders.
Great show Jon...I agree with your guest..we've been far too complacent as Christians in pushing back against 'wokism'
Loved this! Glad Jon is bringing in discussion of the state of other denominations. Quite glad to hear that the Missouri and Wisconsin synods are hanging tough so far. (The less said about the ELCA the better...)
Praying that my Lutheran brothers and sisters stay nice 🙂 but also contend for the true faith with great zeal.
Having grown up Lutheran, Missouri Synod the apostacy of the ELCA branch was well understood by God-fearing Lutherans.
I have to agree with Pastor Ramirez. The ELCA has Pastors that don't even consult Scripture in their views. I personally witnessed an ELCA pastor during an Easter service suggest that the angels encountered at Jesus tomb were the resurrected "thieves" who were crucified with Jesus. It was unbelievable.
The phrase, "Minnesota nice" is certainly appropropriate when describing many Christians today. There are many Lutherans in Wisconsin and Minnesota (where I grew up). And yes, I have also noticed this unwillingness to be so nice that you don't confront sin when you should. Or, it is also likely that many professing Christians really don't have a grasp on the Scriptures, don't have firm convictions in the first place, and/or just do not want to rock the boat. It's almost as if being nice is the eleventh commandment. But as one radio show host says, "We are not called to be 'nice'. Sometimes we are called to be confrontational."
Excellent interview! Thank you so much to both of you.
WELS guy here again with Just a few more thoughts as I was thinking about this overnight. I lied, this is long. Here goes. Pr. Ramirez is a breath of fresh air on the subject. Lutherans are silent on such matters for a number of reasons. I do not think it is Minnesota nice or Wisconsin nice, though that plays a little into how we speak. I believe it is mostly theological. Lutherans do have an history of taking a long hard look at things and slowly developing a statement of belief about them and often put forth in a statement and anit-statement argument just like the Augsburg Confession. After great and deliberate study of the issue - how does it conflict with scripture and so on. Then we would put forth something like this: "We believe xyz......we reject...." and give a defense for it.
It is theological in the sense that we always put forth the Gospel first and the Law as well and believe that because it (God's Word) is efficacious, it will have the greatest effect at combating false teaching. So we don't have to jump on anything that may detract from our core teachings ie: sin, grace, our standing before God Almighty and so on. Our first defense - that is always present. We simply do not tend to get too distracted with the sin of the times or the crime of the day or false teacher of the week. We Let scripture speak positively about what we confess as believers and we do have written down, the largest confession of faith of any church body outside Roman Catholicism, statements of belief and the counter arguments and defenses on false accusations that have been brought against us since the reformation. This is in the Book of Concord 1580. It still holds and our pastors must confess a quia (because it is true) subscription to it to be ordained in the ministry, This is not an instead of the bible set of beliefs, but straight forward, heavily studied doctrines and statements of our beliefs in view of Scripture and in light of the many heresies that have presented themselves over time. So, in some ways, these things are already addressed, but just not with the current name that is pasted on to the latest fad warring against the Lord's Church.
That is the first thing. Eventually we will get a hold of something like the New Age Movement and publish about it. I remember in the 1980's when this was really huge, I was like, where is WELS on this? Eventually we have had books and papers published. It just took some time. John here is way, way quicker to the game than any of us ever would be. And God bless him for that. That is why you have Confessional Lutherans with a similar mind-set watching your videos. There is almost no voice among us Lutherans that is so quick to the game. In terms of accessible arguments regarding things like this, the LCMS has a much greater footprint on social media. WELS almost none, though they do have a searchable database on theological questions on wels.net LCMS is larger and has more guys willing to take on the issues. We don't have enough pastors to fill our aging congregations and few are joining. Pastors are aging out. Maybe that is the reason. There is just not enough man power or time to do it. The few other than St. John the Steadfast and others Pr. Rameirez mentioned.
On youtube:
Brian Wolfmueller (LCMS) formerly a Charismatic, non-denom, anit-Lutheran type Great Lutheran apologist
RevFiskJ (LCMS) he has done Worldview Everlasting, Mad Christian etc. Born and bred LCMS fell away, came back to LCMS Great Lutheran apologist
Fighting for the Faith (AALC - in doctrinal fellowship with LCMS) Chris Roseborough formerly of the Latter Rain Charismatic type movement brought to the light of the Gospel by the real Holy Spirit. Another Great Lutheran apologist.
The Messed Up Church (WELS lay couple) formerly Charismatics brought to the light of scripture after being blinded with false notions and empty promises made in God's name. Great Lutheran apologists.
Just for fun, in order of size the confessional Lutherans are made up of the following synods I am leaving out more newly formed synods that broke from the ELCA since 2009 because they seem to be more socially conservative, but lack direction in the matters that put ELCA in the place where it now stands theologically:
LCMS 5976 congregations formed in1847
WELS 1264 congregations formed in 1850 (formerly in fellowship with LCMS)
ELS 130 congregations formed in 1917 (Norwegian synod) the group it split with eventually assimilated into ELCA
CLC 85 congregations formed in 1960 (broke from WELS because of WELS slowness to split with Missouri synod)
AALC 67 congregations (formed in around 1990 as a break away from ELCA, now in fellowship with LCMS)
ELDONA 28 (formed in 2006 I believe as a break away from LCMS and the players who were drifting left in lcms)
LCR 12 congregations (formed in 1964 because of growing drift in the LCMS theologically away from scriptural integrity)
That's about all I know of. There are a few others. Some are conservative and some are leaning liberal and not confessional and may lean more charismatic, which is actually a great form of liberalism. Think on that. In contrast, the Non confessional Lutherans who are the largest footprint have 8894 congregations. 600 congregations have left it since 2009. This body has around 2,000,000 fewer people since it formed in 1988 when it boasted of around 5 million total members. But all Lutheran bodies have shrunk. The entire Christian church has shrunk in the last 60 years on the whole. God has a plan.
ELDONA's ''Ask the Pastor'' with p. Joshua Sullivan is marvelous.
Thank you John for your important work. Please keep it up!
Keep up the white nationalism.
Yes, Jon, along with a host of others have been a godsend. Though not a huge number, there is a faithful remnant that continue to warn the church, and with that comes the hate. But they plow on by the grace of God.
@@USMC-cv5sd what a misread
The Evangelical Lutheran Church denomination is already the equivalent of the liberal The Episcopal Church. However, if social justice is creeping into the Lutheran denomination called The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, then there is a problem. TCMS is a Bible believing denomination.
Btw, when Lutherans say "Reformed" they mean "all Protestants who are not Lutherans, including hard-core Arminians."
Great conversation!
Wow. My family all went to a Missouri Synod Lutheran church until I was 10. My mom kept her membership in the church and during her last two years, she wasn't able to leave the house, so the pastor came to her once a week. I cannot even fathom these ideas infiltrating Lutheran churches. I'm shocked.
WELS guy here. John, I have been listening to you for 2 years now. Love your stuff. The pastor is correct in pretty much everything I hear him saying. WELS pastors and conservative LCMS pastors have almost NO difference. The main difference is inside baseball and things like the Doctrine of Fellowship ( our take may have insulated us more than LCMS for the time being from some of this stuff since LCMS allows for a number of fellowship things to take place that we do not and is the main reason for our spit in the 1950's and the reason why Wisconsin lost numerous churches to the CLC formation because we dragged our feet at separating from LCMS. ---like I said inside baseball) My concerns in the WELS are more to do with the big, big push toward RELANVCY and Church Growthism. The effect of our guys not following proper Fellowship principles. Want to argue? I can name tons situations that broke this doctrine. Embarrassing really. WELS does have some stuff brewing in the church leader and teacher training school toward Wokeism at Martin Luther Collage in New Ulm MN. Subtle, but present. WLC, our main Liberal Arts College in Milwaukee also has some stuff afoot. During the last election many staff and students organized to disinvite VP Pence from speaking. It is definitely taking hold. The Rev. is correct. We are super slow on the uptake. Denial is next to Godliness? Maybe for some. Thank you for this. I left the ELCA 30 plus years ago. They are indeed apostate as a body. They were almost there when I left and became Lutheran for the first time even thought I was baptized as one. It is a church that confesses everything. Which means, the stand for nothing. I can be really UNNICE as a Lutheran who thinks Polemics should be a better way to discuss things.
Women can’t vote and that is what keeps Wels sovereign
As my kids are approaching college age, I would really appreciate learning more about what you are seeing at MLC/WLC... any pointers?
@@philiphahn1804 Just that what I mentioned with the Petition to disinvite Pence to speak at WLC. I think it was misguided notions with young minds misinformed by media lies. There was something in a synod news blurb about some sort of Cross Cultural thing at MLC recently in a news sheet insert. It might be fine and viewed in the light of scripture where all are God's children in need of his grace and reaching, but it might be something to keep an eye on. I think there is stuff brewing. All in all, these schools are great and about as safe and confessional as you will find. Just some things to keep an eye on. Not being there to hear the day to day talk, it is really hard to know.
Yes, I agree, the potential drift toward cultural relativism is something to keep an eye on. I often get the feeling that that the foundations are being laid for the next compromise, but I generally think that the older staff at MLC (particularly the pastor track profs) and many of the students are the kind of people that God can use to prevent worldly ideologies from creeping in. God help us to that end.
"...would include Baptists."
Why, thank you - I resemble that remark!
I'm Lutheran and this is sadly true. I don't see the WELS ever accepting leftist ideas in anyway, though.
Even independent churches aren't safe from progressivism. My friend is Independent Baptist and there was an elder in church leadership who was Woke and some members in the church were, as well.
I've seen Lutheran pastors describe Social Justice as making everyone "equal" and that God did not design the world that way. But Social Justice refers to those at the extreme edge that are denied basic rights and necessities. It shouldn't be a threat to anyone's own well-being. If Lutherans go the road of saying, "Well, that's how God designed his creation and that's his world order" we might as well forget Christ and his mission to the poor and sick. It's a shame how politics and the need to attract paying customers in the pews will distort Christianity. I'm not going to quote Christ's scripture here. You already know it, and I'm sure you learned in Seminary school how to get around it.
Question for Jon: as the Midwestern "niceness" affects Lutherans' inclination regarding contending for the faith, do you suppose it's racial guilt feelings from SBC history that most animates the leadership's tendency toward wokeness? After all, the SBC's accommodation of racism is typically understood as the reason the SBC exists.
No, not at all. SBC theology is pietistic and Woke ''theology'' is pietistic also. They share the same mentality.
I normally wouldn’t judge a denomination based on one pastor, but if you want to know about the ELCA, just look at Nadia Bolz-Weber. The “trophy” that she awarded Gloria Steinem in 2019 was beyond insane. I’ll just leave it at that. 😬
This congregation at the link is a member congregation in good standing of the ELCA. Granted, not your typical ELCA, but shows what they're willing to allow in the demonination.
I thought LCMS do not believe in a strictly literal interpretetion of the Old Testament. I am confused. I find Lutheran theology very coherent and authentic as sola scripture is concerned, but in the sense that numerous stories of the bible have an allegorical meaning, not that the world was created in 6 days or a prophet lived in a whale belly for some time, or that Adam and Eve were really historical people who lived 10 thousand years ago. Could someone explain what I did not get from this interview about this specifically?
thought steven anderson had converted from ifb at first glance
My opinion is that when a confessional lutheran meets a baptist, the only discussion of an important value they can make is the theological one. For us confessional lutherans, the baptist theology is heretical. Yes, we have many things in common. Yes, we have a common enemy, the ''woke'' mentality and practice. But, the main difference is the only that matters and this is that we exercise huge criticism against the baptist, sacramentarian and work-centered, pietist, theology, mentality and practice. Let's not forget this.
I participate in a WELS congregation and have found the teachings to be Biblical and conservative. But it must be noted and humbly admitted that the church is made up of the people in the pews. And any church can have members whose views and even beliefs stray from a authoritative Biblical perspective. This is where it is incumbent on every member to look out for their fellow members to assist them in coming back onto the true path as defined in Scripture.
Is WELS in the same denomination as the Missouri Synod?
@@Psalm144.1 Both the Missouri Synod and the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) are Lutheran denominations but separate authorities within the Lutheran confession. Simple answer: no.
“And I am sure that He who began a good work in me will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). When the image of the unbegotten is formed in me, then He who was so long tightly furled within me, unwinds Himself, and I am He. “No one has ascended into Heaven but He who descended from heaven, the Son of Man” (John 3:13). God Himself voluntarily descended into His grave Golgotha, my skull. “I lay down My life, that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord” (John 10:17-18). “For your maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is His Name” (Isa. 54:5). And, “He cleaves to his wife and they become one flesh” (Gen. 2:24). For, “He who is united to the Lord becomes one Spirit with Him” (1 Cor. 6:17). “What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder” (Mark 10:9). Man is God’s emanation, yet his wife till the sleep of death is past. “Rouse thyself! Why sleepest thou Lord? Awake!” (Ps. 44:23). When He awakes, “I am He.” God laid Himself down within me to sleep, and as He slept He dreamed a dream; He dreamed that He is I and when He awakes I am He.
Church’s must decide the Bible is the inspired word of God or It’s a Prop and means nothing
Can someone give me a good definition of "social justice"?
Social justice means people from all identity groups have the same rights, opportunities, access to resources, and benefits. It argues that historical inequalities exist and must be addressed and remedied through specific measures including advocacy to confront discrimination, oppression, and institutional inequalities, with a recognition that this process should be participatory, collaborative, inclusive of difference, and affirming of personal agency.
@@michaelclark2458 anti white
@@jackblack496 yes of course I’m trying to give as fair of a definition according to them as possible.
@@michaelclark2458 Egalitarian to an extreme
@@63striker well then give him a better definition of what it is. Sheesh I agree it’s cultural Marxism. But that doesn’t exactly define what exactly it seeks to do. This is straight from a social justice website.
26:50 So I think he's saying the Lutherans are Ents. Hoom, hoom...
Accurate. Lol
Yeah, pretty much. Also, I'm totally going to steal this analogy from now on!
Pastor Ramirez, can you clarify what you mean by WELS being slightly infected with "some multiculturalism and challenges to traditional doctrines" (around 9:12)?
1Cor 9:19For though I be free from all , yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all , that I might by all means save some. 23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with .
ltheran teaches led to the nordic moel so its always been there
I've never been all that fond of Midwestern niceness. Glad I don't live in the Midwest. I feel most at home in New Jersey and Israel.
Yes it is. And Stonechoir among a few others are trying to stop it and get our beautiful Church back.
lol stone choir is a demonic front
Lewis is a syncretist
From Luther's Small Catechism:
The Eighth Commandment
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
What does this mean? We are to fear and love God so that we do not tell lies about our neighbor, betray him, or slander him, but defend him, speak well of him, and explain his actions in the kindest way.
Meanwhile, here's this Lutheran pastor, plus many commenters on this video, using one after another right-wing dog whistle to slander the ELCA. "Infected with wokeness"--bah! If you open your eyes, you might find that Jesus was infected with wokeness.
Side note: Some other denominations call this the Ninth Commandment, and merge and split some others, but all have a total of ten.
Can you prove it is slander?
Looking at the headline plus the context of the entire video, when exactly did social justice become a bad thing among Christians? Did Jesus heal a few lepers and feed a few people, then say, "That's it. Never again."? Did he speak well of one hypothetical Samaritan, then proceed to hate them the way the rest of his society did?
Shepherds have been admonished to warn and safeguard their flocks, which is exactly what these men of God are doing at expense to themselves.
Satan hates truth - telling, so ask for the wisdom and discernment to hear God's voice rather than defending views which may need changing.
It's telling that no one is commenting on whether Jesus was woke.
@@F7dJa Jesus was a rebel against the religious establishment of his time, and I think that all religious establishments need to be constantly on guard against being like the pharisees. Jesus was radically inclusive, while many churches draw a sharp distinction between us and them. Jesus made no test of worthiness before healing lepers and blind people, or feeding them. The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. I bring you good tidings of great joy that shall be unto ALL people. So much of what Jesus did sounds like social justice to me.