Gotta love replacement effect deep dives! This is definitely a tricky question, there are a lot of niche rules that make this interaction work intuitively. Thanks for the video, Dave!
As mentioned in another comment, this sort of dive is much deeper than anything an L1 would be expected to know. Check out my L1 playlist for the sort of rulings that you would be tested on as an L1
Greetings Dave, great video! It is really intersting how you manage to work it out this deep rulings explanations to be understandable, always amazes me. I'd like to point out the boxes on the right getting chopped on the frame and suggest to agroup them as 8 in a row to keep the years sorted out. Thanks for making this kind of videos, really helps to be better knowing more of these rules. I hope you have a great day!
I think it's important for me to point out that the content of this presentation is far above the depth of knowledge you would need to certify for L1, and even L2. I have a playlist with rulings I feel appropriately capture the questions I would expect to see on an L1 exam, and if you can follow with most of them, I'd say go for it! ruclips.net/p/PLlzzQPLyRsI5eh_B4jM4PQvNJk2uIGNCX
I thought I knew the rules, managed to completely confuse myself, rewatched the video twice, only to realize I had it right in the first place. The bit about these kind of replacement effects staying active as game rules while their permanent is on the battlefield is really interesting and highlighted some nuance I was missing before.
My initial thought was that it would always be 6 because you usually apply additive/subtractive effects before things like doubling/tripling, but I guess that's a totally different kind of situation where multiple effects are playing out simultaneously. The real answer, that it's competing replacements that you can apply in the order of your choosing, makes sense.
I love the detail and thoroughness. May I suggest a quick read of each card before going into the rules detail? It would help illustrate why the rules might be confusing. It also prevents me from leaving the page to search the cards on scryfall when I watch on mobile. thanks!
Thanks for the deep dive! I did not know Continuous Effects Affecting Game Rules had their own hidden layer after the "Continuous Effects Affecting Objects" Layer System. Question from me: the CR defines an "effect" as something resulting from a resolving spell or ability. Can we also say that things like State- or Turn-Based Actions have what we could call "effects" as well? I'm thinking back to your DDR on Gemstone Mine + Doubling Season, where you also reference your DDR on Rain Of Gore + Lifelink, and how the difference between Doubling Season & Rain Of Gore is that Doubling Season cares about an effect doing something, whereas Rain Of Gore specifically looks for a resolving spell or ability.
This is exactly the sort of issue I was touching on. Anything that happens in the game, including state- and turn-based actions is an "event", but to be considered an "effect", it needs to result from a spell or ability, which state- and turn-based actions do not. This is related to some of the scenarios discussed in the Rain of Gore episode you mentioned.
Might be an obvious answer to some but since compleated is a continuous effect, does that mean that after paying life to cast tamiyo, if you blinked her she would return in with 3 loyalty instead of 5? Or does the continuous effect stop when she is exiled? Great videos, really fun to watch!
Even if the continuous effect is still applying, the blinked Tamiyo is a new object and would no longer have any connection to original cost paid to cast her, and in fact, was not cast at all. Since she simply entered the battlefield from exile, Compleated would not apply and she should enter with 5. Think about blinking/flickering a Phage the Untouchable. The flickered Phage does not care that the original object was cast from hand, only that the new object entered the battlefield directly from exile, so it's controller loses the game.
Hi Dave I had a question about ante cards. With rule 407.3 effectively banning ante cards in the cr, why are ante cards on the banlist? Would you be able to play ante cards in a no banlist tournament, without modifying rule 407.3? Would they still remove themselves from the deck? Thanks.
I'd have to guess no, since in rule 407.3 it says : "When not playing for ante, players can’t include these cards in their decks or sideboards". So even if they're off the banlist, because I assume you aren't playing for ante in a tournament you still couldn't include them.
My guess is that since ante cards have been banned as long as competitive play has been a thing, long before the comp rules existed, they just decided there's no reason to unban them and have rules lawyers try to come up with wacky reasons as to why they should be able to play Contract from Below in a tournament. But no, you can't even put ante cards in your deck unless you are playing for ante.
The mention of replacement effect order being decided by the affected object's controller makes me wonder how that rule interacts with effects that change who controls an object (ex. Act of Treason). I don't have a specific question regarding but it seems like a rules space that would be interesting to discuss.
I don't like doing stuff like that because people come to my channel as a resource, and I don't want people in the future to come across one of my videos and get confused. All my joke content is self-evident, such as last year's April Fool's post, which dealt with Un-cards, or my other video from today, which was not related to Magic.
Nice try Dave, but i don't trust anything i see on the internet today of all days! We all know that the phyrexians mana symbol on Tamiyo makes it an artifact flavored card (CR 42) and therefore does not interact with enchantments (CR 91). Therefore the correct answer is that the doubling season has no interaction with Tamiyo. ( if life is paid as part of the Tamiyo cost) (CR 107.4 i)
Is there a traditional templating order that mana symbols are printed in mana costs? Sometimes green is to the left of blue, but the opposite is true too.
Base on what your saying, would Elesh norn mother of Machines prevent/double planes walkers from getting their loyalty counters when they come into the battlefield?
Elesh Norn only cares about triggered abilities, not replacement effects. Triggered abilities use the words "when, whenever or at". The praetor you are looking for is Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider. A card like Abzan Ascendancy would be affected by both.
The kicker ability itself is an additional cost, but several cards with kicker (e.g., Bold Defense, Aether Figment) use a replacement effect to make the extra kicker benefits happen.
so if you pay 4 life and 5 mana to play a nissa ascended animist while you have a doubling season in play, you can choose if you want it to enter with 6 or 10 counters on it. could you also choose to have it enter with 8?
Compleated is a single replacement effect, you can't apply half of it before Doubling Season and half of it after. So it enters with either (7-4)*2 or (7*2)-4 counters.
This brings up another question from your statement at the end: What happens if I exile Tamiyo, the Compleated Sage with Yorion, the Sky Nomad having paid the 2 life originally to cast Tamiyo?
I would have to reason that it enters with the full counters it would have as if you had cast her without paying the phyrexian mana. This is because of a few rules: 400.7 says that "An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence," and rule 209.1 says "Each planeswalker card has a loyalty number printed in its lower right corner. This indicates its loyalty while it’s not on the battlefield, and it also indicates that the planeswalker enters the battlefield with that many loyalty counters on it." Since the compleated part only cares about when you cast the spell, the flicker should see it as a completely new, normal Tamiyo, so it would enter with 5 counters.
Can we get a video about the interaction with this new Tamiyo and something like Bolas's Citadel? I know it has been clarified that Compleated only cares about life paid for Phyrexian mana, but I haven't seen information on WHY this is the case beyond "because WotC says so on Twitter." Is there a rule or combination of rules that explain this more intuitively? Because I feel this is a situation where "reading the card explains the card" ends up not being entirely true.
The reminder text on the cards is only a summary; the full text of the ability is given in the comprehensive rules, and specifies that the ability only cares about phyrexian mana symbol’s. 702.150. Compleated 702.150a. Compleated is a static ability found on some planeswalker cards. Compleated means "If this permanent would enter the battlefield with one or more loyalty counters on it and the player who cast it chose to pay life for any part of its cost represented by Phyrexian mana symbols, it instead enters the battlefield with that many loyalty counters minus two for each of those mana symbols."
@@MJWhitfield I feel the reminder text should have been more clear. Having to consult comprehensive rules for the actual text of a new keyword ability that already has reminder text is... awkward at best.
@@thatlamp Just ignore any reminder card on all cards. Sadly, it can never be trusted, the amount of abilities for which it is incorrect far outnumber the ones for which it is.
Interesting. Does that mean the rule would work differently if it modified the starting loyalty on the spell instead of the number of loyalty counters as it enters the battlefield?
Actually no, it would just be even more complex and confusing. Assuming it would still be a replacement effect that is applied as it enters the battlefield, you can still choose to apply it after you apply the intrinsic one. Which means that it would not have any noticeable effect at all. It would have to be a triggered ability that triggers when it is cast and then applies a text-changing effect to the spell (and indirectly to the permanent that spell will become because of CR400.7a). But then that ability can be countered.
Since completed is a continuous effect does that mean if you used Flickerwisp on Tamiyo it would enter with 3 counters if it was initially cast with the completed cost?
When you flicker it, it becomes a new object. That object would have compleated, but compleated checks if life was paid for the Phyrexian mana symbols on _that object_ when _that object_ was cast. Since _that object_ was not cast at all, obviously no life was paid for any of its symbols, so the replacement effect does not apply.
if you play an unexpected windfall with an invoke calamity can I cast the spell I discarded to unexpected windfall with my invoke calamity? Is there a better place to ask this question?
As Invoke Calamity resolves you have to choose which spells you want to cast and try to cast them simultaneously (because it only mentions the word cast once). Since spells can't be cast simultaneously, rule 608.2f applies saying you have to cast them in APNAP order. You can't change what the other spell you tried to cast is after you have cast one of them.
Yes, except that Innkeeper's Talent also doubles the counters put on permanents as a result of a cost being paid, and Innkeeper's Talent also doubles counters put on players as well as permanents you don't control. Conversely, it does not affect counters put on your permanents by someone else (which Doubling Season does affect).
@young-squeezy Much like Innkeeper's Talent, Vorinclex also doubles the counters put on permanents as a result of a cost being paid, and also doubles counters put on players as well as permanents you don't control. Conversely, it does not affect counters put on your permanents by someone else (which Doubling Season does affect).
Yes, but not in the way you think. The continuous effect is still in place, it just never gets to see the event it is trying to replace, because this Tamiyo was never cast. Turns out compleation is pretty easy to undo after all.
I'm not convinced by your logic that compleated is not a self replacement effect. The fact that the compleated ability is printed on Tamiyo, suggests that it is an effect introduced to the game rules by the Tamiyo spell, which replaces the intrinsic ability that Tamiyo already has. You say that what puts the counters on is not one of Tamiyo's effects, yet CR 306.5b clearly states that there is an effect intrinsic to every planeswalker - to my reading, that means it is the planeswalker spell that has this ability, not the game rules that give the ability to a planeswalker spell. Thus the word "intrinsic."
The game rules gives the ability to the planeswalker (tamiyo in this case), NOT the planeswalker spell. A replacement effect is only a self replacement effect if it modifies the effect of its own spell, and the tamiyo permanent is not a spell. The problem is not that the ability is intrinsic to planeswalkers, it's that it is NOT intrinsic to planeswalker spells.
@@alexanderblixt1221 interesting. So what about compleated specifically? Is Compleated an ability of the spell since it only happens if the spell is paid for diferently? Or is it just a normal replacement effect because it affects the permanent, not the spell? The effect is connected to how the spell is cast, but that is irrelevant? In order to be a self replacement, it has to change the spell while it's still on the stack, is that correct?
'so for example, if you think about trinisphere..."
i'd really rather not
You'd better stay away from DDR#300 then...
ruclips.net/video/s47kUU9Pdxw/видео.html
Even if I'll never fully grasp all the rules of Magic, I still love how they're willing to print cards that push the rules in new ways.
I was totally wrong on this one so I’m glad you did the deep dive. Well worth the watch for anyone trying to understand the game a bit better.
Argh I fell for the trap. I definitely was thinking "haha Mr. Physics Professor, you can't fool me! That's a self-replacement effect!" Alas.
Gotta love replacement effect deep dives! This is definitely a tricky question, there are a lot of niche rules that make this interaction work intuitively. Thanks for the video, Dave!
gotta love these. I am working to be a judge so I really appreciate deeper dives!
As mentioned in another comment, this sort of dive is much deeper than anything an L1 would be expected to know. Check out my L1 playlist for the sort of rulings that you would be tested on as an L1
@@JudgingFtW will do!
Thank you for putting the answer up front instead of padding things out for the algorithm. Much appreciated.
Greetings Dave, great video! It is really intersting how you manage to work it out this deep rulings explanations to be understandable, always amazes me.
I'd like to point out the boxes on the right getting chopped on the frame and suggest to agroup them as 8 in a row to keep the years sorted out.
Thanks for making this kind of videos, really helps to be better knowing more of these rules. I hope you have a great day!
Thanks for this! Would love to become a judge one day so your advice helps a lot.
I think it's important for me to point out that the content of this presentation is far above the depth of knowledge you would need to certify for L1, and even L2. I have a playlist with rulings I feel appropriately capture the questions I would expect to see on an L1 exam, and if you can follow with most of them, I'd say go for it!
ruclips.net/p/PLlzzQPLyRsI5eh_B4jM4PQvNJk2uIGNCX
@@JudgingFtW oh okay awesome thank you!
I thought I knew the rules, managed to completely confuse myself, rewatched the video twice, only to realize I had it right in the first place. The bit about these kind of replacement effects staying active as game rules while their permanent is on the battlefield is really interesting and highlighted some nuance I was missing before.
Was wondering about this the moment I saw the card. Asked a few judges and they came to the same conclusion! Thanks!
very relevant video today because of Innkeeper´s Talent
The knowledge is much appreciated. Keep up the good work.
My initial thought was that it would always be 6 because you usually apply additive/subtractive effects before things like doubling/tripling, but I guess that's a totally different kind of situation where multiple effects are playing out simultaneously. The real answer, that it's competing replacements that you can apply in the order of your choosing, makes sense.
I love the detail and thoroughness. May I suggest a quick read of each card before going into the rules detail? It would help illustrate why the rules might be confusing. It also prevents me from leaving the page to search the cards on scryfall when I watch on mobile. thanks!
Ok, I think I would explain it a bit differently but thank you for being more exact in the reasoning.
Thanks for the deep dive! I did not know Continuous Effects Affecting Game Rules had their own hidden layer after the "Continuous Effects Affecting Objects" Layer System. Question from me: the CR defines an "effect" as something resulting from a resolving spell or ability. Can we also say that things like State- or Turn-Based Actions have what we could call "effects" as well? I'm thinking back to your DDR on Gemstone Mine + Doubling Season, where you also reference your DDR on Rain Of Gore + Lifelink, and how the difference between Doubling Season & Rain Of Gore is that Doubling Season cares about an effect doing something, whereas Rain Of Gore specifically looks for a resolving spell or ability.
This is exactly the sort of issue I was touching on. Anything that happens in the game, including state- and turn-based actions is an "event", but to be considered an "effect", it needs to result from a spell or ability, which state- and turn-based actions do not. This is related to some of the scenarios discussed in the Rain of Gore episode you mentioned.
Might be an obvious answer to some but since compleated is a continuous effect, does that mean that after paying life to cast tamiyo, if you blinked her she would return in with 3 loyalty instead of 5? Or does the continuous effect stop when she is exiled?
Great videos, really fun to watch!
Even if the continuous effect is still applying, the blinked Tamiyo is a new object and would no longer have any connection to original cost paid to cast her, and in fact, was not cast at all. Since she simply entered the battlefield from exile, Compleated would not apply and she should enter with 5.
Think about blinking/flickering a Phage the Untouchable. The flickered Phage does not care that the original object was cast from hand, only that the new object entered the battlefield directly from exile, so it's controller loses the game.
Thank you for this TED-Talk, though i will admit that i lost the thread of the monologue at the last two minutes there...
These videos are my new addiction.
Im loving these videos.
I'm very pleased to have nailed this one.
Hi Dave I had a question about ante cards. With rule 407.3 effectively banning ante cards in the cr, why are ante cards on the banlist? Would you be able to play ante cards in a no banlist tournament, without modifying rule 407.3? Would they still remove themselves from the deck? Thanks.
I'd have to guess no, since in rule 407.3 it says : "When not playing for ante, players can’t include these cards in their decks or sideboards". So even if they're off the banlist, because I assume you aren't playing for ante in a tournament you still couldn't include them.
My guess is that since ante cards have been banned as long as competitive play has been a thing, long before the comp rules existed, they just decided there's no reason to unban them and have rules lawyers try to come up with wacky reasons as to why they should be able to play Contract from Below in a tournament. But no, you can't even put ante cards in your deck unless you are playing for ante.
The mention of replacement effect order being decided by the affected object's controller makes me wonder how that rule interacts with effects that change who controls an object (ex. Act of Treason). I don't have a specific question regarding but it seems like a rules space that would be interesting to discuss.
I like this guy, and these are really cool vids. New sub. Keep up the good work 👍
Wow, that is really subtle. Thanks!
As usual, great video
For a second i thought this ruling was fake, considering the day and all.
I don't like doing stuff like that because people come to my channel as a resource, and I don't want people in the future to come across one of my videos and get confused. All my joke content is self-evident, such as last year's April Fool's post, which dealt with Un-cards, or my other video from today, which was not related to Magic.
Slay. I love a good deep dive.
Nice try Dave, but i don't trust anything i see on the internet today of all days! We all know that the phyrexians mana symbol on Tamiyo makes it an artifact flavored card (CR 42) and therefore does not interact with enchantments (CR 91). Therefore the correct answer is that the doubling season has no interaction with Tamiyo. ( if life is paid as part of the Tamiyo cost) (CR 107.4 i)
I'M HELPING
Doesn't vorinklex double starting loyalty?
Yes
+1 for the complexity here, I guessed lucky but so glad I know why now
Great content
After seeing this I want to combo Tamiyo's third ability with Mirror Box and Doubling Season.
You make good video's
Cool thanks
nice, needed this lol
Is there a traditional templating order that mana symbols are printed in mana costs? Sometimes green is to the left of blue, but the opposite is true too.
Use the shortest possible even gaps in WUBRGWUBRG order.
Base on what your saying, would Elesh norn mother of Machines prevent/double planes walkers from getting their loyalty counters when they come into the battlefield?
Elesh Norn only cares about triggered abilities, not replacement effects. Triggered abilities use the words "when, whenever or at". The praetor you are looking for is Vorinclex, Monstrous Raider. A card like Abzan Ascendancy would be affected by both.
liked for algorithm :) - good content
awesome.
Would kicker be a replacement effect? Doesn't seem like it but thought that it may be possible.
The kicker ability itself is an additional cost, but several cards with kicker (e.g., Bold Defense, Aether Figment) use a replacement effect to make the extra kicker benefits happen.
@@JudgingFtW Hmm ok, interesting
so if you pay 4 life and 5 mana to play a nissa ascended animist while you have a doubling season in play, you can choose if you want it to enter with 6 or 10 counters on it. could you also choose to have it enter with 8?
Compleated is a single replacement effect, you can't apply half of it before Doubling Season and half of it after. So it enters with either (7-4)*2 or (7*2)-4 counters.
This brings up another question from your statement at the end:
What happens if I exile Tamiyo, the Compleated Sage with Yorion, the Sky Nomad having paid the 2 life originally to cast Tamiyo?
I would have to reason that it enters with the full counters it would have as if you had cast her without paying the phyrexian mana. This is because of a few rules: 400.7 says that "An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence," and rule 209.1 says "Each planeswalker card has a loyalty number printed in its lower right corner. This indicates its loyalty while it’s not on the battlefield, and it also indicates that the planeswalker enters the battlefield with that many loyalty counters on it." Since the compleated part only cares about when you cast the spell, the flicker should see it as a completely new, normal Tamiyo, so it would enter with 5 counters.
Can we get a video about the interaction with this new Tamiyo and something like Bolas's Citadel? I know it has been clarified that Compleated only cares about life paid for Phyrexian mana, but I haven't seen information on WHY this is the case beyond "because WotC says so on Twitter." Is there a rule or combination of rules that explain this more intuitively? Because I feel this is a situation where "reading the card explains the card" ends up not being entirely true.
The reminder text on the cards is only a summary; the full text of the ability is given in the comprehensive rules, and specifies that the ability only cares about phyrexian mana symbol’s.
702.150. Compleated
702.150a. Compleated is a static ability found on some planeswalker cards. Compleated means "If this permanent would enter the battlefield with one or more loyalty counters on it and the player who cast it chose to pay life for any part of its cost represented by Phyrexian mana symbols, it instead enters the battlefield with that many loyalty counters minus two for each of those mana symbols."
@@MJWhitfield I feel the reminder text should have been more clear. Having to consult comprehensive rules for the actual text of a new keyword ability that already has reminder text is... awkward at best.
@@thatlamp Just ignore any reminder card on all cards. Sadly, it can never be trusted, the amount of abilities for which it is incorrect far outnumber the ones for which it is.
Interesting. Does that mean the rule would work differently if it modified the starting loyalty on the spell instead of the number of loyalty counters as it enters the battlefield?
Actually no, it would just be even more complex and confusing. Assuming it would still be a replacement effect that is applied as it enters the battlefield, you can still choose to apply it after you apply the intrinsic one. Which means that it would not have any noticeable effect at all. It would have to be a triggered ability that triggers when it is cast and then applies a text-changing effect to the spell (and indirectly to the permanent that spell will become because of CR400.7a). But then that ability can be countered.
Since completed is a continuous effect does that mean if you used Flickerwisp on Tamiyo it would enter with 3 counters if it was initially cast with the completed cost?
When you flicker it, it becomes a new object. That object would have compleated, but compleated checks if life was paid for the Phyrexian mana symbols on _that object_ when _that object_ was cast. Since _that object_ was not cast at all, obviously no life was paid for any of its symbols, so the replacement effect does not apply.
if you play an unexpected windfall with an invoke calamity can I cast the spell I discarded to unexpected windfall with my invoke calamity? Is there a better place to ask this question?
As Invoke Calamity resolves you have to choose which spells you want to cast and try to cast them simultaneously (because it only mentions the word cast once). Since spells can't be cast simultaneously, rule 608.2f applies saying you have to cast them in APNAP order. You can't change what the other spell you tried to cast is after you have cast one of them.
So is the situation the same with innkeepers talent and vraska?
Yes, except that Innkeeper's Talent also doubles the counters put on permanents as a result of a cost being paid, and Innkeeper's Talent also doubles counters put on players as well as permanents you don't control. Conversely, it does not affect counters put on your permanents by someone else (which Doubling Season does affect).
for the algorithm
Yeah I’m curious how this applies with Vorinclex, which is an MTGA equivalent of doubling season
Vorinclex is actually different from doubling season
@young-squeezy Much like Innkeeper's Talent, Vorinclex also doubles the counters put on permanents as a result of a cost being paid, and also doubles counters put on players as well as permanents you don't control. Conversely, it does not affect counters put on your permanents by someone else (which Doubling Season does affect).
What happens if you flicker a compleated Tamiyo? Does the continuous effect still hold?
Yes, but not in the way you think. The continuous effect is still in place, it just never gets to see the event it is trying to replace, because this Tamiyo was never cast. Turns out compleation is pretty easy to undo after all.
👏👏👏
yo
I'm not convinced by your logic that compleated is not a self replacement effect. The fact that the compleated ability is printed on Tamiyo, suggests that it is an effect introduced to the game rules by the Tamiyo spell, which replaces the intrinsic ability that Tamiyo already has. You say that what puts the counters on is not one of Tamiyo's effects, yet CR 306.5b clearly states that there is an effect intrinsic to every planeswalker - to my reading, that means it is the planeswalker spell that has this ability, not the game rules that give the ability to a planeswalker spell. Thus the word "intrinsic."
The game rules gives the ability to the planeswalker (tamiyo in this case), NOT the planeswalker spell. A replacement effect is only a self replacement effect if it modifies the effect of its own spell, and the tamiyo permanent is not a spell. The problem is not that the ability is intrinsic to planeswalkers, it's that it is NOT intrinsic to planeswalker spells.
@@alexanderblixt1221 interesting. So what about compleated specifically? Is Compleated an ability of the spell since it only happens if the spell is paid for diferently? Or is it just a normal replacement effect because it affects the permanent, not the spell? The effect is connected to how the spell is cast, but that is irrelevant? In order to be a self replacement, it has to change the spell while it's still on the stack, is that correct?
@@bl4klotus That is my understanding of it, yes.