CFexpress Update - 2 X FASTER WTF !!! | How Will It Improve Your Camera? | Conversation | Matt Irwin
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- Опубликовано: 3 сен 2023
- #CFexpress #Fast #storage
Cfexpress is the latest in card technology, and it just got faster. Wether you are Type A, Type B or Type C, the entire standard has been upgraded to version 4.0
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I love the progress because for guys like me who are on a budget, it means that the older tech keeps getting more affordable. 😊
Very VERY exciting news. I personally don’t need much more speed than I currently have, but agree with your sentiment about awe and amazement at what is coming up next. Thanks for the update Matt. I’m happy to get my updated through the Matt Irwin nightly news. 👍🏻
Cheers Joe :)
This might be an odd spot to put this, but you're the first person I could find acknowledging the existence of CFexpress size C.
I think that physical size is just about right to be a new physical audio format.
It's big enough to not be a choking hazard, and big enough for an artwork sticker to not be microscopic. It's also small enough to be a realistic item for collecting albums, about half the size of a cassette tape. We would also obviously have an easy way to get data to and from writable cards.
Obviously the speeds are way overkill, and we would probably want write protection and cheaper cards for album purposes.
Always inspiring- thank you!
Interesting discussion, Matt. For me, I think I've maxed out at 8K ... but you never know. As a fellow nerd (though technically-challenged), I always enjoy hearing about innovation. As you know, I also love the editing possibilities of editing on, say, a 4K timeline with all the flexibility that 8K offers.
8K 120fps? In my latest video, I used the Z8's 4K 120 and zoomed/panned in post (using Ken Burns) and, to my eye, it looks great!
For stills, I rarely shoot at 20fps. When it comes to 14- vs 16-bit ... now we're talking! Is it necessary? I dunno, but my ears always perk up at the mention of dynamic range. Maybe I'm a frustrated medium format guy at heart, but those Hasselblad and Fuji medium format files do look delicious. (though "medium format" camera sensors are not all created equal -- size does matter).
It'll be interesting to see where things go next.
Another great Video Matt! Thanks for sharing!
The future is looking really good. Well done Matt!
Thanks for the update.
Anytime Thomas :)
I really enjoy hearing your opinion and perspective and yes the new 4.0 spec doubling speed is very interesting even though 1800 MB/s seems to be plenty for my Z8 especially for my usual shooting style but I share your enthusiasm for technology ,it opens up possibilities and well I am also a gear guy somewhat . I don't want to get GAS too bad for more than one reason and I want our current gear to be relevant for a long time ....
Future cameras I'm sure will make use of it , like you also said we are at such an amazing time in camera and lens evolution already ,fun to dream and play 👍👍
Good discussion. Perhaps the new faster cards will bring us closer to a global shutter and the end of mechanical shutters in all hybrid camera models. Also it could enable features such as pre-capture raw and yes higher frames per second (50 or 100 fps without format restrictions).
canon r6ii already does raw precapture with just sd cards so who knows why the z8/z9 only do it with jpeg
You would still need a buffer to ensure stability given the variation on the CFexpress cards. Your not crazy Matt.. you have me hooked on the zoom in/out on the same approach. I use high speed but all of of my work is highly dynamic objects, frame rates at 50fps RAW and pre-capture would be useful. The issue will remain the variability of the CFexpress cards and testing of cards/brands will be vital. Happy to chat over coffee one day as an IT/Aerospace geek. 🙂 Again great discussion.
Would love that, hit me up on the email link :)
Hello Matt, this is a very interesting time we live in. Yes I think there is a usaer case for higher FPS rates but in a limited number of cases, I could say 16 bit raw files are quite big. With my Hasselblad X2D the raw files are over 200md per file so that would be a lot of data to move. It will be interesting if the camera manufacturer can utilities this extra speed in a software update? Keep well, keep safe and carry on inspiring us.
Exciting tech. Bring on the medium format Z9 😉. Storage companies are drooling haha
Higher Fidelity and performance seem to go hand-in-hand.
At the same time, we have to consider the practical aspects of the medium. Things such as televisions which can display 8K etc., or 16 bit information.
Yes, this higher Fidelity, can provide greater creative latitude on the backend for the content creator.
Our biology and physical world we interact with has a ceiling in terms of sensation and experience. I think we will continue to drive forward until the synthetic world becomes nearly indistinguishable between the organic one.
I'd love the option of 16bit. You can shoot a 20fps camera at 5fps if you want, its your choice so giving the option of 16bit raw or 14bit raw should be the users decision. Sure, file size will be bigger but again its up to the user if they want quality over file size. 😊
As a wildlife photographer, I would like to see pre capture on the Z9 at 20 fps raw or at lease HEIF. Who knows we may even see 30, 60 and 120 fps pre capture in HEIF or raw even if it is at reduced resolution.
why does the canon r6ii do raw pre capture with just sd cards but the z8/z9 don't?
@@bananaman-zd4lqwhy doesn't Lightroom read my R6 II photos correctly and I have to use camera matchmaking profiles
@@bananaman-zd4lq I am not here to get into a cannon / Nikon slanging match. However you are comparing a 24mp camera against a 45mp camera therefore a lot more data. The Z9 also has up to 1 second pre capture compared to 1/2 second on cannon. It is quite possible that Nikon decided that they were targeting sports press photographers who only need jpeg files. It may be possible even now to shoot higher speed in raw but that may come in a later firmware update. The point is faster cards may have as yet unknown benefits which I welcome.
@@iannewell7304 I'm also not trying to get into a Nikon vs canon argument, I use z6ii, but I just meant I'd think the z9 should be able to do raw pre capture even at lower frame rates or lower resolution. But yes hopefully the faster cards will bring benefits
Woohoo I'm the first viewer and liker 😅😅
Man, you were quick!!! I thought I was going to be first, but I was too slow!
Good one.
You're the best!
@josephsworkshop75 Matt is so good at keeping us informed when new products/ videos / and gear is released, he runs a great channel and I get excited when he releases videos!
Good looking video. Matt. Is that Z8 or Z9 and 50 f1.2?
I am just excited to see what the next nikon z6/7 IIIs might do with this.
I would not to to excited about more speed writing to cards until we find out just how much heat is generated.
As others have pointed out, if this means I could put a new card in my Z8 and shoot at 8K with no heat warnings, that would be a big deal.
Nice thought piece Matt. As an engineer by education it's so interesting to see the evolution of the camera industry from one where manufacturers were closed innovators (developing everything in house) to open innovators (licencing and integrating other people's tech). It's a massive skillset and mindset change and as an integrator it's about balancing the system to create the performance, packaging it all up in a way that has a great interface with the person and making it aesthetic - oh and at the right price point. As all the components evolve at different paces it will as you say be interesting to see which aspects of the performance envelop each manufacturer focuses on. With a potential sensor uplift to 60MP (a 1.5x of the 45MP) that increases file size but will compression balance that or will they throttle the capture rate to 10fps? - so many permutations and so many options🤔🥵 Certainly interesting times to come👍
Yes so exciting to see what will come of all this future potential :)
There is already x2 compliant that increased the performance of CFE-B cards and we saw many existing many up date and new entrants like OWC/Nextorage et al to deliver huge performance - but for more cost. Now with 4.0 we wait to see card prices and also which bodies will use v4 not just v2
Yes I also wonder if any current camera hardware could be updated to 4.0 ... ? :)
Z9ii is next year. Itll probably have the expeed 8 processor. Z6iii and Z7iii will get the expeed 7 that is almost maxed out. Both moves will match or exceed the competition. Mark my words, Mathew.
This could also mean more efficiency. So maybe less overheating cards? Kind of like higher power strobes at half power recycle faster and handle heat better than the lower power strobe at full power to be the same exposure if that makes sense? If it can handle more then it won’t over work as hard I guess I’m saying? Idk
I recall some time back you were talking about the Z9 and that it was much faster than the current memory cards and that this (my words) was it's 'bottle neck'; and that as memory card technology increased so would the Z9 increase without having to upgrade bodies
My question is the card heat increasing production.
The NvMe sounds really good as that case is a heat sink if metal. Perhaps this will be the upgrade solution to the Z9ii & Z8ii as well as the other cameras by modifying the memory card slot as a heat sink for the cards heat sink. I don't know if camera manufacturers already equipped their card slots in this fashion in preparation of this tech coming out.
I suspect there will be some kind of slot change for this, maybe EMI-like fingers contacting the metal pad of the card to improve heat transfer. However, heat output is not increased that much. E.g. Kioxia BG4 (PCIe 3.0) runs at about 3 Watts, the equivalent BG5 (PCIe 4.0) module runs at about 4 Watts (with roughly 80% higher throughput). This also means that IF the camera is writing fast enough and IF the camera supports power management properly the SSD can be raced to idle a lot quicker, at least for photo use.
Love CFExpress but for the majority of folks, we still have an SD Card in the body. Would love to see that tech improve, or better yet have 512GB SSD in the camera would be even better.
> or better yet have 512GB SSD in the camera would be even better.
That's literally what CFexpress is.
@@-szega no, I meant no card. Just give me an SSD and kill the need for a card.
I think the current faster cards (1750+ write) offer virtually unlimited buffer for stills on the Z9, even at 20fps, which I've found to be almost too high of a frame rate, even for birds in flight photography, mostly because it chews up the memory cards. The thing which would excite me most is bigger storage at cheaper prices. I've seen 2tb cards (4tb in camera storage), which would be amazing, but they are a bit over US$500 each, which is eye-wateringly exe. Perhaps the double-speed cards will mean the current generation gets cheaper, which would be great.,
Hi Matt. Are our camera's already compatible with these faster CFexpress cards, or are these only going to be available in the next generation of hardware. I'm recalling the D850, and my Z6 and Z7 bodies all waiting on firmware updates to enable CFexpress in those bodies from the previous XQD. Is this likely do you think to be the same or CFexpress 4.0 ? I.e. our current cameras (Nikon) can be upgraded through firmware to use the latest 4.0 format. It may come with a few warnings though.
Keep them coming. Regards, Paul.
Question is, would this 4.0 cards backward compatible with the cameras out in the market, then the buffer speed is limiting factor and would not be a viable alternative if the price isn't as low as 2.0 cards. What I would very much like to see from Nikon is implementing external storage option for video via usb-c though. Even if it means videos come out with 5k resolution or even with 4k resolution.
This move is about the capabilities of their future cameras. If we seem to be reaching the limits of what a camera needs to have, then they are saying: “you haven’t seen anything yet!”
Would love some of it on the present z9. Can’t seem to get 8k 60 N-Raw high quality read on my present card.
Yes, I thought I would play w the 8K video (even though my Mac would probably choke on it) but it fails w my CFx cards, which are only a few months old. I dont need more than 4K anyway, but it would be fun to get some 8K work. Sounds like these new cards will be able to handle it.
While the cards get faster, we still have the same PCIe interface in the camera and so I would not expect the older camera to become faster from these new cards.
Does having a CFExpress B 4.0 card help with the buffer for older cameras like the Nikon D850, versus having an older SanDisk Extreme Pro CFExpress B card, for example?
FYI ProGrade Digital Memory Card - CFexpress 4.0 Type B for Cameras | Optimized for Express Transfer of Files & Large Storage | 512GB Gold Series $179.00 Sus. Sustained Write 2400 MB/s - Read 3400 and 2TB Gold Series $799.00 Amazon. FYI Harder to over heat Nikon Z8
for movie, 12 bit from 10 bit pls
I would consider myself a relative novice with regard to photography having just recently purchased a Nikon Z9 as my introduction into MC. My question to those with infinite more experience is, “Tell me why I need to shoot at 40-50 fps?” I find a lot of my images at 30 fps infinitesimally identical with many being culled. I’m really at the stage of understanding where I don’t know what I don’t know.
Hey Joshua, most of us don't need 40-50, most of us don't need 20 FPS. It really depends what you are capturing. Your USE CASE. For architecture no. For very fast moving objects or wildlife, maybe yes. But it is a lot of hard work finding the definitive image, as you SPRAY and PRAY and 30-40-50 frames per second, and you do that for a few seconds times 200 or more ...
Will it add more heat? Thermals may be limitation
Apologies as it was probably mentioned (lots of concepts discussed here), but is this a firmware update or a new card type? I have 3 angelbird cards where firmware is upgradeable, can i convert them or is this a new card type to purchase?
Realistically when will the new 4.0 standard of CFExpress type B cards be available for purchase? Weeks? Months? In 12 months?
Isn't the buffer necessary for things like pre capture?
Will this open the door to larger medium format files?
I'm still half way of this video but I'm not sure if 2x speed CFExpress Type B card do anything. I mean, my Z9 is not running out of buffer for like eternity. I can theoretically shoot photos indefinite.
Edit: Ah, I see. it is not like it is gonna do something in the already existing camera systems, it is more about future. I guess they could make fast medium format cameras? or maybe full frame uncomplessed RAW 40shots/s or something like that?
For sure what will the future hold? :)
@@MattIrwinPhotography I'm pretty sure most of the manufacture will straggle with some sort of bottle necks in their system though. Maybe Z9 sensor is the fastest, maybe the card can now read/write 2x speed, but I'm not sure, as you are too, there aren't any "narrow pathway" in the system. we'll see :)
CF Express 4.0 + SD Express 8.0 for futur Z6 and Z7 mkiii with Expeed 7S ?
26Mpixels or 32Mpix BSI Stacked
To make sure I understand correctly, is it currently not possible on a Z9 or Z8 to benefit from the performance of a CF Express 4.0 card and the advertised data transfer speeds? These cameras, therefore, cannot handle these speeds?
Another thing that worries me is the card overheating faster. XQD was far better withstanding heat cause it created less heat compared to CFx cards. CFx cards do come out hotter than XQD cards after two hours event photography. Now with 2x faster speed I feel this is validated point to get worried
Perhaps, it all depends on the architecture of these cards, is it running faster, or in parallel.
XQD in 2012 wasn't actually new tech - XQD is backwards-compatible with the older, physically larger SxS cards from the mid 2000s. SxS uses Sony's own proprietary protocol over PCIe 1.0, XQD bumped that to PCIe 2.0, kept the proprietary and patented protocol, and added native USB 3 to the cards themselves (XQD-USB-readers are just mechanical adapters, basically, compared to the 300+ $ SxS readers, which contain a huge and expensive FPGA - the preferred way was to stick the SxS card into a laptop with an ExpressCard slot and use Sony's proprietary driver to access them).
CFX 1.0 retained the XQD form factor, replaced the propretiary SxS protocol with the open standard NVMe and bumped PCIe to 3.0 speeds.
Matt, 8K @ 120 fps with a 4X CF card will generate blistering heat.
Without a proficient cooling system, the card or processor will probably be toast.
That's my opinion... What do you say?
Rick
I don't think they will remove buffer from prosumer grade cameras. It won't be that common for prosumer, let alone consumer grade users to get the most expensive memory cards. As you see, the main spending for consumer photographers goes into the body, then it starts decreasing from lens, tripod to memory card.
I don't need 8k120 but only 4k240, nothing more, really. I don't need 50-60fps but Precapture RAW 5-10-15fps, whatever. These cameras are shooting themselves already and I feel the discouragement to use them so proper slow motion is what would keep me going deeper with video :D
What's the future for SD cards and Micro SD?
I don't know if there are any plans to make SD faster than the current fastest cards.
Faster cards will mean less heat generation at current speeds. 8k60 raw on z8 wont generate as much heat as it does now.
Well.. kind-of yes, but what we talk about here is the CFexpress 4.0 which is an increase in bus speed only (PCIe 3.0 to PCIe 4.0 standard - thus doubling the single lane speed), but this by itself means nothing if the cells stay the same. Even today you can get CFe cards that vary in the amount of heat they produce, some overheat when writing, others don't - older cell tech more heat, newer cell tech less heat, which doesn't directly depend on the bus speed.
@@quikee9195 thanks for the info. Appreciated. My assumptions were based on common interpretation of things like the newer speeds will max out at the same temperatures so the cf 4 at cf2 top speed won't hit the threshold. But thanks again for the specifics.
I want 240 frames 4k or 480 frames HD
No need for 8k 120
LOL, I see what you did there :)
@MattIrwinPhotography sorry Matt, what do you mean? why do you lough about me in public?
I'd need it very often, more often than 8.3k raw 120 frames. so what's the problem you have to laugh about?
@@Hofsaedter my apologies, I thought you were being humorous about data rates.
@@MattIrwinPhotography The discussion was initially about the new possibilities that the super-fast new cards could offer, such as the potential to create 8K/120 videos in Raw or even 12K. However, I believe that a higher frame rate for slow-motion videos would be more appealing. In my opinion, the overall development is heading in the wrong direction. The image quality of the Z9 doesn't match that of the D850, and even my 645Z surpasses it. And no, it's not just about speed." When will we get genuine colors without interpolation? It appears that this issue has been entirely disregarded, doesn't it?
@@Hofsaedter well as I said in this video I would like 16 bit stills rather than more fps in stills.
I dont need 8k 120p. Give us 4k 240p.