Okay but I am soooo ready for this philosophy podcast to start, even though my pea brain will probably start to crack real quick lol. Thanks for the fun again, CWN never fails to bring me so much comfort and joy 🥰
God I love 1:54:48 the section here where you guys talk about how stoics just acknowledge the slight and pity the other person because admittedly an event happened in my life at the start of this year and I was pissed- I was hateful but the thought of “Well, why did that person do that cruel thing” just made me pity her more and more. That alongside the thought of- I have to be better than the people I despise. I cannot wait to watch your podcast together.
This was a great chat! I really enjoyed the discussion on whether there is an objective level of quality in books. Looking forward to the podcast collaboration!
Man I did not know Jared had such a good sense of humour since his vids are mostly informative, but I was cracking up as I listened. But man I’d love to watch the two of you guys pod together
Jared and Jimmy thanks for the conversation. It was very entertaining and dare I say edifying. Can’t wait to hear you guys talk more on your upcoming podcast!
(This was a great episode! I enjoyed it a lot. The wall of text is real strong this time.) I wish I could have been there for the live stream. Insomnia has been kicking my butt so I couldn't watch the stream before bed. Glasses are a pain. My nose has been broken too many times so I can't wear glasses with nose pieces, so that limits my options. I went with "good looking serial killer" glasses last year and this year I'm back to old faithful acrylic frames. The layout for the video looks great. I have learned from experience that you don't need a lot of subscribers for people to jump into your comments and tell you that you are dumb 😂. It is just a part of youtube. I'm leaning toward siding with Steve and Jared on whether or not book can be objectively bad. A Princess of Mars is a banger. I think Jared was onto something when he said "I like it when it is done well" when it comes to laser SF or adventure fantasy. I think execution is a good way to judge whether a book is good or not. Wait there is a comet in aSoIaF that is bringing back magic? Is the White Rose gonna return and fight the Lady in Westeros?😂(I'm kidding but I do not remember a meteor or comet but it has been almost 17 years since I read aSoIaF, I'm like Jared I will read them again when a new one is coming out. I will read everything else by GRRM until then) So atheists are dealt with in am interesting way in the Pathfinder RPG(which has a pantheon of Gods) and I think it best describes Jasnah's beliefs. I'm just gonna share the quote: "Atheism is the rejection of deities. Rather than outright disbelieving in deities whose existence is a matter of hard fact, atheists in Golarion instead deny that deities are truly divine and thus not deserving of worship or blind faith. Thus, atheists may be classed as dystheists or misotheists." Isn't there a sentence in Epic Pooh where Moorcock specifically says" I don't think these books are fascist, but... " then he goes on to say they are inherently conservative and involve white men in Grey cloaks that just know what is right for everyone else. I think the LotR is definitely very conservative but not fascist. I think Tolkien's obsession with a "simpler time" does share the same roots as fascism's retrogressive nostalgia. Also, Jared mentioned to Tolkien fighting Germans in WW1 but Kaiser Germany wasn't fascist. They were Imperialist in the same way England was(they even shared the same royal bloodline). A lot of people today try and equate Kaiser Germany with Nazi Germany and it just doesn't work. Fascism wasn't a political trend until it started gaining ground in Italy in the 20s. I think the more compelling critique Moorcock makes in Epic Pooh is that writing in the Lord of the Rings is just mid. I never clicked with the LotR. It was too "cozy" for me and falls flat when I compare it to other fantasy that was published around that time. The Hobbit is straight gas though. I could read it every year. Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass is so good. I have read most of Ayn Rand's works. Her writing does suck. The first half of The Fountainhead is 🔥🔥🔥 though. I think the most gernerous take you can get from The Fountainhead is that you should love yourself enough to pursue your passion despite the hurdles the world puts in front of you. The podcast with Jared sounds great! Hey I have that exact Steinbeck King Arthur book! I just got it on Tuesday! Sorry for the wall of text. You finally had a chat with something in my wheelhouse. I have read Wizardry and Wild Romance 2 times(I'm reading it for a third time soon) and late imperialism/rise of fascism is something I have spent too much time reading about.(sorry for any typos, I was at work 😂) I too love Warbreaker 😎.
I have vaguely seen some Jared content around and he seems like a nice guy but by god do philosophy bros just get under my skin sometimes so I was very hesitant. Decided to watch one of his CWN and Jared seems like an awesome guy, besides his Sanderson takes 😛very excited about the podcast!
A voice of reason in the Sanderson cult. I like him as a person. I like him as a RUclipsr. Sanderson's writing I find middling (which doesn't mean its terrible).
@@thefantasynuttwork yeah he's almost a cult among online discussions groups at this point. I think he is fine, but I have never read anything that I consider a masterpiece yet, but I have enjoyed Stormlight.
With the objectivity in art debate, for now I have settled into the idea that is one of the focal points of art: It makes you feel things. That does not mean pure emotional connection, byt intellectual stimulation as well. If a book makes me feel something inside that stays with me, that makes my vision of the world different just a little bit, if it makes me feel strong feelings (not cheap shock value stuff though) then I consider that good art for me. Trying to find the variables of what makrs good art takes the soul out of it for me, I get extremely bored by analysis of art on a technical level (funny sibce I am a computer science engineer). What i care aboyt the most is what art made you feel, and even better, why do you think that is? How does the baggage you carry with yourself into a book interact with the text itself? That to me is the most interesting part. Rhat interaction can happen on an intellectual level (an idea that blows your mind, that sticks with you, like jow 3 body problem has stuck with me for years), or it could be a journey of a character or a group of people, an epic that alongside emotional connection made you think in a different way (like Malazan does for me). Or i could value the pure joy a book brings me (like Discworld). There's many facets to ir, but the core of it is what a book made me feel. I think with the canon and everything we have a very different expectation set and outlook on books deemed profound by scholars, therefore that influences our perception of those books immensly. But as an example, MalazN made me think more than any other book ever did. And I have read some heavy hitters like Dostoevsky and Nabokov. Does not mean I think Malazan is somehow a better book, it is not, but it made me feel more things on an intellectual and emotional level than those above have. You can have a dense rich novel, but that richness will only come through to some people, and sometimes the depth is not even intentional and many of the layers come into the book subconsciously. A bit of a meandering ramble but this is where I am at as of this moment, my views on this change rapidly which is to say that I guess I am learning more and more each day
Another great episode. I’m really looking forward to the monthly Henderson v Nutts philosophical steel cage match. To Jared’s point about talking dolphins, my buddies and I had a similar discussion once while we were partaking in some herbal rituals lol. We were sitting on the Hillsborough river in tampa and I said “what if a dolphin swam up to us and started talking, making us the first people to witness a fully evolved dolphin. We had a good long talk about the fallout from that landmark discovery lmao. Also Jimmy I completely agree with the understanding of free will leading to more compassion, especially with the judicial system
Moorcock likes Warbreaker because Nightblood = Stormbringer, and Moorcock is so often overlooked because of Tolkiens shadow. He is probably happy to see other influences in fantasy.
Like, imagine a world that Elric was what defined the fantasy genre instead of Tolkien. If Elric was what thousand of authors imitated. (Not that there isn’t, just not to the extent of Tolkien.) I think I much prefer Tolkien, but it’s a fun thought experiment to do either way.
First time I see Jared, I'm fascinated by what he talked about here. And if he's gonna have Jimmy on twice a month to talk about philosophy, he's gonna get at least two views a month from me. Btw I'm reading The Remains of the Day this weekend, I'm 70 pages in and really enjoying it!
Holy crap Jimmy. I used to work at Geek Squad home support too. I was asked to train people in the Philippines, I refused , was fired the next week and then less than 2 months later, my team was gone. What were we called? Home Deputy? I don’t remember the title.
I only got to watch the first half hour or so live, so here are a few of my thoughts on the rest. When looking at books, there is the obviously subjective "how much did I like it/" but there is also the question of "how well written do I think this was?" which I believe is also subjective in some sense depending on definitions. It is more objective than the first question in the sense that there will be less diversity of opinions simply because of human nature; there is a certain amount of uniformity in the human experience, but something being "true" from the perspective of a generic human doesn't necessarily make it objectively "true." I think if I say "I know this book is good but I didn't like it," what I mean is I think the book was written well (second question) but you don't like it (first question). I am treating the second question as having an objective answer in the same way that I might treat the statement "murder is wrong" as being objectively true because not is generally agreed upon by human beings. I'm pretty sure Jasnah was always open to the possibility of powerful beings. That is what the shards are. They are powerful beings. Does that make them gods? As far as I remember, Jasnah in tWoK was far closer to correct about the nature of the world than any other character in the book excluding Wit. Jasnah did not have a major belief disproved or whatever it was Jared said. I don't think she ever said anything to the effect of "there's no chance that there is some real powerful being that may have formed the basis for Vorinism." She said that Vorinism was not accurate. This was proved to be objectively correct. You're probably right about the dolphins but I am inclined to be a bit pessimistic on that one as there's already overwhelming evidence for dolphins and some other animals being extremely intelligent and nobody seems to care. If Aliens came I agree that geopolitics would change, but I don't think everyone would just unite. There are already real world examples of people not being able to put aside their differences to fight a common threat, and this is a major theme in three of the most popular fantasy series published: ASOIAF, Stormlight, and the Wheel of Time. Okay. Fine. I'll read Moorcock. Sometime.
Moby Dick is funnier than you'd think. And thinking about editors of today is interesting, because editors back then, at least in England, cut so much out that it baffled many readers. It wasn't until 60 years later it was rediscovered and became the classic it is.
Not a fan of the scrolling text on the bottom. The same repeating line got too distracting. Maybe it'd be better if you switched up the text once in a while with the topic or question you're talking about.
If there is no objective in art, does that mean i can bang some random keys on a piano and no one can claim it's objectively worse than a Beethoven symphony? I think the objective exists but we just have very very limited tools of measurement. If you try to compare Mozart to Beethoven we can really only resort to the subjective if we are being fair. It would take a god to create an algorithm that defines and measures all the variables that comprise the optimal human definition of "good art" and it would take a god to accurately weight those variables against each other. A god could tell you if Mozart is better than Beethoven or if a casserole I made is better art than a Sanderson novel. But humans don't really have the tools to do that, so we are kind of stuck with subjective in 99% of conversations comparing or rating art.
Jared- HOID ALSO SAID HONOR WAS NOT THE COSMERE GOD! She doesn't believe in the universal god the whole time, it would be like me not believing in Jesus and then you prove Baal doesn't exist, like, duh, that was not what I was saying at all. Jimmy, please send over my discomfort and frustration to Jared as a Stormlight fan, hehe. I mean this in all jest of course... or maybe not, Stormlight fans unite! ⚔
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
Showed up for a good time and Jimmy drops a sick Friday reference right out the gate. All hail the Nutts!
YES SOMEONE GOT IT
I Love this
❤️
Okay but I am soooo ready for this philosophy podcast to start, even though my pea brain will probably start to crack real quick lol. Thanks for the fun again, CWN never fails to bring me so much comfort and joy 🥰
I’ll be as lost as anyone lol
This was an excellent discussion. Can't wait for more from you two. Cheers.
Thanks Dan!
Allen and Jared are my favs, it would be awesome for them to be together on an episode like it was mentioned.
Will happen!
God I love 1:54:48 the section here where you guys talk about how stoics just acknowledge the slight and pity the other person because admittedly an event happened in my life at the start of this year and I was pissed- I was hateful but the thought of “Well, why did that person do that cruel thing” just made me pity her more and more. That alongside the thought of- I have to be better than the people I despise. I cannot wait to watch your podcast together.
I found Jared’s viewpoint really powerful
Duuude the podcast with you and Jared discussing philosophy is so hype, I was hoping you two would collaborate more and now this!
We are excited!
I can't wait for the philosophical mano-a-mano between Jimmy and Jared. It promises to be fascinating.
thank you my dude!
This was a great chat! I really enjoyed the discussion on whether there is an objective level of quality in books. Looking forward to the podcast collaboration!
Thank you!!
Man I did not know Jared had such a good sense of humour since his vids are mostly informative, but I was cracking up as I listened. But man I’d love to watch the two of you guys pod together
He’s great!
Ever since I read GGK, I get upset that Paran messes up some mosaics in Gardens of the Moon.
The jerk!
Jared and Jimmy thanks for the conversation. It was very entertaining and dare I say edifying. Can’t wait to hear you guys talk more on your upcoming podcast!
Appreciate this and the chats you sent in the stream
(This was a great episode! I enjoyed it a lot. The wall of text is real strong this time.)
I wish I could have been there for the live stream. Insomnia has been kicking my butt so I couldn't watch the stream before bed.
Glasses are a pain. My nose has been broken too many times so I can't wear glasses with nose pieces, so that limits my options.
I went with "good looking serial killer" glasses last year and this year I'm back to old faithful acrylic frames.
The layout for the video looks great.
I have learned from experience that you don't need a lot of subscribers for people to jump into your comments and tell you that you are dumb 😂. It is just a part of youtube.
I'm leaning toward siding with Steve and Jared on whether or not book can be objectively bad.
A Princess of Mars is a banger.
I think Jared was onto something when he said "I like it when it is done well" when it comes to laser SF or adventure fantasy. I think execution is a good way to judge whether a book is good or not.
Wait there is a comet in aSoIaF that is bringing back magic?
Is the White Rose gonna return and fight the Lady in Westeros?😂(I'm kidding but I do not remember a meteor or comet but it has been almost 17 years since I read aSoIaF, I'm like Jared
I will read them again when a new one is coming out. I will read everything else by GRRM until then)
So atheists are dealt with in am interesting way in the Pathfinder RPG(which has a pantheon of Gods) and I think it best describes Jasnah's beliefs. I'm just gonna share the quote:
"Atheism is the rejection of deities. Rather than outright disbelieving in deities whose existence is a matter of hard fact, atheists in Golarion instead deny that deities are truly divine and thus not deserving of worship or blind faith. Thus, atheists may be classed as dystheists or misotheists."
Isn't there a sentence in Epic Pooh where Moorcock specifically says" I don't think these books are fascist, but... " then he goes on to say they are inherently conservative and involve white men in Grey cloaks that just know what is right for everyone else. I think the LotR is definitely very conservative but not fascist.
I think Tolkien's obsession with a "simpler time" does share the same roots as fascism's retrogressive nostalgia.
Also, Jared mentioned to Tolkien fighting Germans in WW1 but Kaiser Germany wasn't fascist. They were Imperialist in the same way England was(they even shared the same royal bloodline).
A lot of people today try and equate Kaiser Germany with Nazi Germany and it just doesn't work. Fascism wasn't a political trend until it started gaining ground in Italy in the 20s.
I think the more compelling critique Moorcock makes in Epic Pooh is that writing in the Lord of the Rings is just mid. I never clicked with the LotR. It was too "cozy" for me and falls flat when I compare it to other fantasy that was published around that time.
The Hobbit is straight gas though. I could read it every year.
Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass is so good.
I have read most of Ayn Rand's works. Her writing does suck. The first half of The Fountainhead is 🔥🔥🔥 though. I think the most gernerous take you can get from The Fountainhead is that you should love yourself enough to pursue your passion despite the hurdles the world puts in front of you.
The podcast with Jared sounds great!
Hey I have that exact Steinbeck King Arthur book! I just got it on Tuesday!
Sorry for the wall of text. You finally had a chat with something in my wheelhouse. I have read Wizardry and Wild Romance 2 times(I'm reading it for a third time soon) and late imperialism/rise of fascism is something I have spent too much time reading about.(sorry for any typos, I was at work 😂)
I too love Warbreaker 😎.
This was a great comment!
I have vaguely seen some Jared content around and he seems like a nice guy but by god do philosophy bros just get under my skin sometimes so I was very hesitant. Decided to watch one of his CWN and Jared seems like an awesome guy, besides his Sanderson takes 😛very excited about the podcast!
i love this
😆
Moby Dick is so good. Hard at times, but great.
I need to start it soon
A voice of reason in the Sanderson cult. I like him as a person. I like him as a RUclipsr. Sanderson's writing I find middling (which doesn't mean its terrible).
I’m stuck between people who think he’s trash and those who think he’s the greatest of all time lol
@@thefantasynuttwork yeah he's almost a cult among online discussions groups at this point. I think he is fine, but I have never read anything that I consider a masterpiece yet, but I have enjoyed Stormlight.
With the objectivity in art debate, for now I have settled into the idea that is one of the focal points of art:
It makes you feel things.
That does not mean pure emotional connection, byt intellectual stimulation as well. If a book makes me feel something inside that stays with me, that makes my vision of the world different just a little bit, if it makes me feel strong feelings (not cheap shock value stuff though) then I consider that good art for me. Trying to find the variables of what makrs good art takes the soul out of it for me, I get extremely bored by analysis of art on a technical level (funny sibce I am a computer science engineer). What i care aboyt the most is what art made you feel, and even better, why do you think that is? How does the baggage you carry with yourself into a book interact with the text itself? That to me is the most interesting part. Rhat interaction can happen on an intellectual level (an idea that blows your mind, that sticks with you, like jow 3 body problem has stuck with me for years), or it could be a journey of a character or a group of people, an epic that alongside emotional connection made you think in a different way (like Malazan does for me). Or i could value the pure joy a book brings me (like Discworld). There's many facets to ir, but the core of it is what a book made me feel.
I think with the canon and everything we have a very different expectation set and outlook on books deemed profound by scholars, therefore that influences our perception of those books immensly. But as an example, MalazN made me think more than any other book ever did. And I have read some heavy hitters like Dostoevsky and Nabokov. Does not mean I think Malazan is somehow a better book, it is not, but it made me feel more things on an intellectual and emotional level than those above have. You can have a dense rich novel, but that richness will only come through to some people, and sometimes the depth is not even intentional and many of the layers come into the book subconsciously.
A bit of a meandering ramble but this is where I am at as of this moment, my views on this change rapidly which is to say that I guess I am learning more and more each day
Very well said, trying to boil it down technically also removes the sound from it for me as well
Another great episode. I’m really looking forward to the monthly Henderson v Nutts philosophical steel cage match. To Jared’s point about talking dolphins, my buddies and I had a similar discussion once while we were partaking in some herbal rituals lol. We were sitting on the Hillsborough river in tampa and I said “what if a dolphin swam up to us and started talking, making us the first people to witness a fully evolved dolphin. We had a good long talk about the fallout from that landmark discovery lmao. Also Jimmy I completely agree with the understanding of free will leading to more compassion, especially with the judicial system
In general Dolphins are fascinating
I can’t wait for you to get to A Brightness Long Ago to see it dethrones Arbonne as your favorite GGK.
Came in the mail today
No one who argues that there are objective opinions ever says that their opinion is the one that's incorrect.
Exactly lmao
Moorcock likes Warbreaker because Nightblood = Stormbringer, and Moorcock is so often overlooked because of Tolkiens shadow. He is probably happy to see other influences in fantasy.
Like, imagine a world that Elric was what defined the fantasy genre instead of Tolkien. If Elric was what thousand of authors imitated. (Not that there isn’t, just not to the extent of Tolkien.) I think I much prefer Tolkien, but it’s a fun thought experiment to do either way.
Great job Jimmy 🤙🤙
Thanks bro!
First time I see Jared, I'm fascinated by what he talked about here. And if he's gonna have Jimmy on twice a month to talk about philosophy, he's gonna get at least two views a month from me.
Btw I'm reading The Remains of the Day this weekend, I'm 70 pages in and really enjoying it!
Love to hear that!
Where can I find the 2 King Arthur videos Jared mentioned?
library ladder here on RUclips
Thanks Jimmy. Great video! Looking forward to the new podcast!
Will the podcast be available on RUclips in video form as well?
@@ZampanosCat yep!
@@thefantasynuttwork Sweet
Jared, Allen and Jimmy. The episode that was promised
I’ll make it happen!
Holy crap Jimmy. I used to work at Geek Squad home support too. I was asked to train people in the Philippines, I refused , was fired the next week and then less than 2 months later, my team was gone. What were we called? Home Deputy? I don’t remember the title.
Covert agents!
@@thefantasynuttwork that’s it!
@@leonelfidel2211 small world lol
I only got to watch the first half hour or so live, so here are a few of my thoughts on the rest.
When looking at books, there is the obviously subjective "how much did I like it/" but there is also the question of "how well written do I think this was?" which I believe is also subjective in some sense depending on definitions. It is more objective than the first question in the sense that there will be less diversity of opinions simply because of human nature; there is a certain amount of uniformity in the human experience, but something being "true" from the perspective of a generic human doesn't necessarily make it objectively "true."
I think if I say "I know this book is good but I didn't like it," what I mean is I think the book was written well (second question) but you don't like it (first question). I am treating the second question as having an objective answer in the same way that I might treat the statement "murder is wrong" as being objectively true because not is generally agreed upon by human beings.
I'm pretty sure Jasnah was always open to the possibility of powerful beings. That is what the shards are. They are powerful beings. Does that make them gods? As far as I remember, Jasnah in tWoK was far closer to correct about the nature of the world than any other character in the book excluding Wit. Jasnah did not have a major belief disproved or whatever it was Jared said. I don't think she ever said anything to the effect of "there's no chance that there is some real powerful being that may have formed the basis for Vorinism." She said that Vorinism was not accurate. This was proved to be objectively correct.
You're probably right about the dolphins but I am inclined to be a bit pessimistic on that one as there's already overwhelming evidence for dolphins and some other animals being extremely intelligent and nobody seems to care.
If Aliens came I agree that geopolitics would change, but I don't think everyone would just unite. There are already real world examples of people not being able to put aside their differences to fight a common threat, and this is a major theme in three of the most popular fantasy series published: ASOIAF, Stormlight, and the Wheel of Time.
Okay. Fine. I'll read Moorcock. Sometime.
Thanks for the comment, I enjoyed reading through
❤
😎
Moby Dick is funnier than you'd think. And thinking about editors of today is interesting, because editors back then, at least in England, cut so much out that it baffled many readers. It wasn't until 60 years later it was rediscovered and became the classic it is.
I would probably love it
I’ve got some bones to pick with the views and opinions expressed in this episode..
Have at it!
Pensando en la inmortalidad del cangrejo...........
🤔
🦀
Not a fan of the scrolling text on the bottom. The same repeating line got too distracting. Maybe it'd be better if you switched up the text once in a while with the topic or question you're talking about.
Thanks for the feedback!
If there is no objective in art, does that mean i can bang some random keys on a piano and no one can claim it's objectively worse than a Beethoven symphony? I think the objective exists but we just have very very limited tools of measurement. If you try to compare Mozart to Beethoven we can really only resort to the subjective if we are being fair. It would take a god to create an algorithm that defines and measures all the variables that comprise the optimal human definition of "good art" and it would take a god to accurately weight those variables against each other. A god could tell you if Mozart is better than Beethoven or if a casserole I made is better art than a Sanderson novel. But humans don't really have the tools to do that, so we are kind of stuck with subjective in 99% of conversations comparing or rating art.
Very interesting take on this
Yeah, Jimmy is so dumb that he doesn’t know that he’s not dumb.
🤣
Jared- HOID ALSO SAID HONOR WAS NOT THE COSMERE GOD! She doesn't believe in the universal god the whole time, it would be like me not believing in Jesus and then you prove Baal doesn't exist, like, duh, that was not what I was saying at all. Jimmy, please send over my discomfort and frustration to Jared as a Stormlight fan, hehe. I mean this in all jest of course... or maybe not, Stormlight fans unite! ⚔
I'm disappointed that I don't get to watch any more One Piece content by Jimmy because of stupid people 😢
It could happen! I’m just on break from reading it atm
@@thefantasynuttwork Ah ok. No pressure from me. I just want you to enjoy it, even if you don't do any more videos on it
Now I'm wondering what author interviews you've seen and came away thinking they're an idiot? 😂
Plenty hahaha
@@thefantasynuttwork and there I was fishing for specifics 😄
I feel like an a-hole for wanting to know who this “disgraced” RUclipsr is, but I don’t think I know this story.
Sci-fi guy named fit2bread, ended up being a sexual predator