Project Ultra: Germany Wants a Stronger Compact Pistol
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- Опубликовано: 7 авг 2018
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This pistol is one of just a couple surviving from a development project run by Walther in the mid to late 1930s. The goal was to produce a compact sidearm for pilots and officers using a more potent cartridge than the .32ACP or .380. To do this, Walther split the dimensional difference on case length and developed the 9x18mm cartridge, which would later be known as 9mm Police or 9mm Ultra. It used a standard .355 inch bullet, but split the ballistic difference between 9x17 Browning and 9x19 Parabellum.
The early developmental testing was done by simply chambering a PP for the new cartridge, but it proved a bit too powerful for the simple blowback action of the PP. So this was followed by the development of the pistol we have today, which integrated a short recoil, rotating barrel locking system to meet the demands of the new cartridge. By this time, however, it was 1939, and the importance of the project was dwarfed by the rapidly accumulating wartime production needs of the German military. The gun was dropped, although the cartridge would be reintroduced after the war.
For more information on the project, and all of Walther's other work, see "Walther: A German Legend" at Amazon:
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Pity there won't be any shooting; watching that front sight flip over in slo-mo would have been fun!
Daniel von Strangle great.
They put a P38 in a boil wash and it shrunk
Christopher MacLennan
Lmao.
No wonder why it was lolified.
It would have been nice to have a P38 next to this to compare size. As well as some actual rounds to compare to each other. Either dummy or live.
If the project had been labeled "superweapon" testing would've continued until 1945.
Or labeled it an assault rifle and have it perform well.
Far too practical. You’d have to equip it with volley sights marked out to 1,000km and claim it could hit London.
@@Activated_Complex and add a v2 attachment
The smooth click-clack cycling of precision machined parts is so satisfactory 😊
The gun is so cool that Ian forgot what day it was 😄
@@samditto both are correct.
The 9 mm Ultra has been used on many hangun in Italy durino the 70's. That was done especially to trying to put on the civilian market some high capacity handgun in an era were the 9 x 19 was illegal and the only caliber available for double column magazine was the 30 luger
When I was in the Army in the late eighties I was stationed in Germany. I had a sergeant friend who had a Walther PP super 9 mm Ultra. I shot the gun several times and it was okay. This was in the late 80s around the time Glock, Sig, Beretta Etc turn the gun Market upside down with their respective Wonder 9 handguns.
History has shifted from a Project Ultra to a Project MKUltra...
Tune in next week for Project MKUltra: Ian Drops Acid.
**CIA WANTS TO KNOW YOUR LOCATION**
Maschinen Karabiner Ultra
Private collection? Extreme high level collector matter there, I am in awe. Ian sure is on a roll this week. If only everyone who watches these videos on a regular basis would do the minimum on Patreon just imagine what else Ian could do.
I'm sure it would have been too fast to see with the naked eye, but that barrel rotating like that when firing seems like it would have been simultaneously the weirdest and coolest thing ever.
"The slide rotates until it unlocks from the barrel"
Freudian slip for something even weirder that's coming up?
Jonas Klarstrup you have to look at it from the barrel's perspective. Quit being so slide-centric.
The slide rotates around the penis... er... hmm... the barrel slides into the vagi... noooooo!
They played with their PP until something new happened
@@dzonbrodi514 -- *_They played with their PP until something new happened_*
They went blind?
The 9mmPolice did catch on to some degree for LE in Switzerland. Several police units adopted the Sig P230 as their official sidearm and nowadays many of those can be bought as surplus/used.
I really want to have some of them
I find it amazing how you can just leisurely sit there and talk about this one-of-a-kind pistol, truly professional. I'd be grinning from ear to ear. Anyway, thank you very much for the video, that thing looks pretty neat!
Damn, I was hoping this was gonna be an LSD-laced gun
That would be the MK Ultra PP.
Gun used by glow in the dark CIA ((agents))
Actually that’s ‘midnight climax’, MKULTRA was all psychedelics.
@@emnigmamachine why the parenthesis
Walther design doctrine in the 1930's: Make something that can take a life at arms reach, and make sure it looks cute too.
Drinking game: have a drink every time Ian says "cool."
So it's either a 380 on steroids or a watered down 9mm
In other words: Just about enough for most self-defence applications. Which is exactly what a downed pilot would want (or a German policeman for that matter).
Exactly. I mean, I personally still consider 9mm short to be an adequate self-defence cartridge (which is why I love my PPK so much - everything I need, as small as I want), so something even more powerful would be plenty for me.
Probably means the worst of one without the best of the other.
it's actually a 9mm Glisenti with a shortened case. So much that Fiocchi used the same load for its 9mm Police and 9mm Glisenti cartridges.
King Leonidas 5.56 NATO bullet diameter is 5.70mm. .22LR bullet diameter is 5.72mm. The difference obviously is in how much pressure there is behind the projectiles.
Another pistol and caliber I didn't know existed until today. Awesome work as always Ian! You mentioned there was a Mauser HSc also in this caliber. I have a working third variation HSc in 7.65 if you would like to use it in a video.
About handguns with rotating barrels, in Russia we have a gsh-18 (гш-18), realy interesting pistol with caliber 9x19.
It would be nice, if you will find it somewhere, and take it for you video.
Алексей Глазов The gsh-18 is 9x19.
SR1 is 9x21, GSh-18 is overpressured 9x19
The ГШ-18 is actually a pretty amazing gun it has pretty great ergonomics and an interesting special 9mm bullet Variant I always hoped Ian would do a video on it ( and the the yargin pistol as well)
nardgames, my mistake)
Dankbeast Paul How does it compare to the 7.62x25? The tokarev is a 9 mm+p (+p is an American SAAMI designation for extra powerful rounds) with a .30 inch bullet.
Interesting concept pistol. Splitting the difference between straight 9mm and 380ACP. But did the world need yet another 9mm diameter cartridge?
Cool looking little piece. Like a cross between the PPK and the P38
Fun fact, the 9x18mm Makarov was based on the 9mm Ultra cartridge
BenjiMan Wasn't the Makarov a shortened Parabellum?
That's what I understood also, 9x18 Makarov is a slightly fatter 1st cousin to the Ultra
Nope, different projectile diameter, 9x19 is .355 9x18 is .365 and the Makarov round is tapered. You may be able to fire a makarov round in a parabellum chambered firearm but it will be head spacing on the extractor not the case mouth and will probably break the extractor or just not eject, not great for the barrel either.
I've always heard the Mak is .363". I too have heard the Mak was inspired at least somewhat by the 9x18 Ultra. However, the Soviets specifically went to a different bors diameter so that their ammo was in no way compatible with NATO ammo. And it probably wouldn't reliably cycle a 9x19 anyway.
Like 5.56 inspired them to 5,45x39
Including the sources on the video is a nice thing !
Keep up the good work
Lol this is literally my namesake on here!
Lame
"Lame"
Bahahahahahaa ok then 'SteveVi0lence'
Lame
lame
Your PP is weaker than mine! LOL
great that you were able to make a video about it! shame it was so short and had no proper hands on approach with actually shooting it. With all that this would have been the go-to source for everyone in the future! Good stuff!
Not long found your channel and its already one of my faves, consistently good content.
Legendary_Sid it’s a favourite of mine. Production and content have got better and better over the years and it’s up there with the best at this stage.
Amazing. Thank you sir for helping to preserve this history.
There is also a single page about this weapon in E.J. Hoffschmidt's Know Your Walther P.P.&P.P.K. pistols. published in 1975. Used copies are still available.
That is a good looking pistol. All the best lines from the PP and P-38.
Heard of this somewhere before, maybe on a historical article. 93-95 i worked in a large gunshop. I saw 2 9x18 Ultra pistols in that time period. Both came in used. One was a PP Super, the other was a Sig P230. We had to do a bit of research (in BOOKS, even!) to figure out what they were. Good times. I wouldn't mind having a pistol so chambered- 1 or 2 Euro companies still load it. However, getting it here in Kalifornia would be difficult with our onerous new ammo laws. Basically u would have to get an FFL dealer to order it, meaning u would have to buy a case, and they would charge u a fee to do so ($1-2 per box, typically). Anyway, great video as always. Thank you
Sir, methinks you just gave us more information than the book will.
Super neat specimen!
Thanks Ian!
I love it when Ian finds guns I've never heard of.
THat's one pretty cool pistol. I love that rotating barrel! I can see how the pistol would've been a good choice for pilots or others who needed emergency self-defense but can also see how they would just stick with the PP and PPK as the war was looming.
Great video. It would be really nice to see a review of a Walther PP Super in 9x18 Ultra. Those are very cool looking pistols. Greetings from Argentina.
I own a makarov copy made by FEG. PA-63. Fire the 9x18 round. Never heard it referred to as the Ultra or Police. Very cool video 👍
Never heard of the ultra, or the Walther 9x18 another enlightening video!
Interesting design. Thanks Ian!
As always, good video Ian! 😊
Excellent videos... Keep up the good work.
Thanks for showing something so rare I hadn't even read about it.
Thank you Ian
It is a huge shame that you couldn't get any high speed shooting footage. That rotating barrel would look awesome.
One of the best one or two gun channels.
Cool looking Walther!
This seems actually better than the P38: simpler, less moving parts, possibly more reliable.
_More_ reliable?? I thought P-38s (not counting late-war throw-togethers) had a reasonable rep for reliability?
Wonderful! Since I'm so early, I figured it would be worth commenting! Love your content! I may have missed it, but have you considered doing a video on the No.8 Lee enfield?
Ok, I need to know whose fireplace that is, because they have one hell of a collection!
A small P38/PPK nice piece of hot steel!
An interesting design concept, pity it didn't go anywhere.
OTOH, the concept of a rotating barrel / locking mechanism DID reappear with Slovenia's (very nice) Grand Power pistol. Based on GP pistols, I suspect that prototype pistol would have decent shooter.
I saw you how you were holding it at 5 minutes, with that modern high grip of yours that slide bite would have eaten you alive. Walthers are known for that as I'm sure you're aware.
Thanks for the vid sir.👍🏼👍🏼
Beautiful!
Coolest looking WW2-era pistol hands down. It's a beauty
Since you've done the ASP and Devel S&Ws I would love to see you do the Mk22 Mod 0 "Hushpuppy" if you ever get a chance.
That’s awesome!
That's quite a beautiful pistol
That is so cool! Who wouldn't want a P-38k with a rotary locked breech. That thing is downright steampunk!
9mm Police was very popular in Switzerland until the nineties with a few cantonal police forces, used in SIG-Sauer P230.
Majestic pistol
It’s essentially a Walter P38 and PPK mix. Very interesting.
Nice looking gun
This is the only one left is a statement that would give most people pause. For Ian, it means he has more to do before lunch.
Awesome design!
Good looking pistol.
The pp and p38 had a baby lol. Love ur videos. I wanna see more videos like this. More pistols. Atomic pistols. Maybe prototype
Hey Ian, how reliable is the recoil arm style of mainspring? Does it work reliably on the other guns you mentioned? What could some of the draw backs be? Thanks!
I would love a modern copy of this to see how it fires
You need a sister channel with a talented CNC operator who likes to design and build guns. Id love to see some of these one off prototypes carefully recreated and then test fired since you often can't fire them if there is only one/two left in the world.
Ian - Gunlab collaboration sound nice
How is 9mm Makarov called "9mm" when it's actually 9.2mm? I mean, we go as far as saying 7.62mm... Weird :l
Alexander Marinin oooooh that makes sense! Cheers :D
No such simple rule. There are four ways to define caliber: bore diameter, groove diameter, bullet diameter and countless arbitrary (like marketing) reasons. Examples of confusing markings:
- 30-06 and 308 Win use the same bullet diameter (.308")
- ditto with 38 Spl and 357 Mag (.357")
- 380 Auto uses .355" bullets
- 44 Mag uses .429" bullets
Etc etc. A caliber marking gives a general idea of the diameter of the bullet and the bore, but in the end it's just a given name for a certain cartridge and chambering whose exact dimensions are defined by CIP and SAAMI.
because there are 2 different primary 7.62's on the market
7.62x51 NATO and 7.62x54R Rimmed,
for 9x18 its usually 9mm MAK and for 9x19mm its usually 9mm or 9mm NATO.
There is actually a reason for the .38 vs .357, with a surprisingly long history. In the days of black powder cap and ball handguns .36 was a popular caliber (the Cold Navy revolver of 1851) Having the bullet the exact same caliber as the barrel means it wouldn't engage the rifling, so there was a forcing cone that squeezed the bullet to the barrels width of slightly less than .36 - to a nominal .357.
Now comes cartridges, eliminating the need for separate cap and ball, and if you can't get a new build weapon, you take an old one to a machine shop and bore through the cylinder, making it a little wider. Hence you get old .36 guns now firing the .38 bullet (named for the total width of the new brass case).
Shortly thereafter, smokeless powder gets introduced, which is a lot more powerful. So you would have the same size bullet, but only partially filled with propellant. Come the 1920s someone gets the idea of making a super .38 round by filling the empty space with extra nito powder. Easy enough, but then its too much pressure for old guns built to black-powder pressure. So they made the round a little longer so it couldn't fit in old guns, and named it after the diameter of the barrel lands/forcing cone rather than the size of the brass.
So .38 special is .38 Long colt, made a little shorter to accommodate for more effective propellant, and .357 is .38LC loaded to its full potential, and a little longer to avoid exploding old guns.
Classics never die...
Some clued up gents in this reply....
man I really would have loved to see the disassembly, I LOVE rotating barrel guns. Especially with it being a Walther that traditionally has a different lockup than browning actions anyway.
I didn't see how the barrel locks up here. Sliding through the channel while making the barrel rotate offers some resistance, I suppose, but wouldn't that be a delayed blowback? I'm sure I'm missing something here.
@@donjones4719 Kinda, Like with the Obregon, Beretta PX4, Grand Power, old Savages, and some others, lugs on the barrel lock into the slide-like a tilting browning action, but instead of the tilt releasing the lugs, angles in the lugs force the barrel to rotate to the point where the lugs aren't engaged so it can cycle. I think it's super neat, I'd love if a modern company reproduced an Obregon.
@@washingtoncommandcenter5541 I found the Obregon video (it was on the recommendation sidebar). The action is clearer to me now, but I'd love to know how the recoil on the Obregon felt vs the 1911A1.
@@donjones4719 Same, never seen one in person, kind of a dream gun for me but the 9mm Beretta PX4s are really nice and they have them in 45. The new S&W 5.7 have some kind of rotary barrel system and they are supposed to be crazy light shooting.
Reminds me of the mauser Hsv you showed us last year
I wish that Gun Jesus would find and do a video on DT28/DTM Machine gun. I know it's just a tank/vehicle version of DP28 but there is still not a lot of info on it.
When ze Kolibri isn't güd enough
Yayo' Ariowibowo Ja das Kolibri
Da Vid Kolibri ist maskulin -> der Kolibri
Yayo' Ariowibowo güt is not a word in german language.
gut ~ good
Jumper Harz Zat's da joke
neat pistol!
When the first Makarov pistols were imported, I bought one. East German, cost $99.00. 9mm Makarov ammo was really hard to find then, and I really wanted to fire it. A friend had a small reloading business, and came across half a coffee can of 9mm ultra fired brass. I improvised some .380 bullets and 9x19 dies using warm .380 powder weight, and I could fire the pistol. Horrible accuracy but I could shoot it. This also "fire formed" the brass, so when the proper .363 bullets and Makarov dies became available, I could use these cases to make nice accurate loads for my Makarov. Interesting brass, some marked 9mm Police, some 9mm Ultra. Resemble an "Action Express" cartridge as the rim diameter is smaller than the shell diameter. .380 shell holder works. I now use 9x19 fired brass, resize with Makarov die and trim the case with a Lee case trimmer, using Lee home cast Makarov bullets. Still a great shooter. 99 bucks well spent!
This would be a really cool gun to see in slow mo.
Very much willing to believe this is genuine considering the mechanics involved.
The goal sought was a cartridge designed to meet peek pressure and yet work as a blowback, saving weight and construction costs down. larger pistols could be had for higher pressure cartridges, but the ergonomic 'peak' in blowback. A blowback in 9x19 is heavy.
The Walther pistol shown had a rotating barrel lock, but other pistols were developed on this cartridge that had no lock at all. It appears the Russians thought this was useful and developed the Makrov in 9x18. 9x18 would make sense if you wanted peak power without a lock and you do not want a higher pressure cartridge accidentally used, such as the 9x19.
Would the front sight being located on a rotating barrel cause significant windage deviation, or would the locking mechanism eliminate any change?
Interesting pistol!
if the PPK, and the P38 had a kid this would be it.
That’s a nice sight picture you’ve got there. Be a shame if something where to… happen to it.
Remind me of the bersa 22/6 {a ppk clone from argentina} which has a 6" barrel.
I'm really surprised that the 9x18 Ultra didnt really catch on... ballistically superior to .380 ACP, same diameter so no need to worry about rebarreling issues with things like the 9x18 Makarov. It's surprisingly a good round round with excellent ballistics in a small compact gun, pretty ideal for most defense scenarios requiring a handgun, and since all you'd need to convert it to a .380 is a barrel swap, it would make for an interesting dual caliber small compact gun potentially.
I've got a few Ultra guns but ammo is becoming harder to get with only two companies loading it that I know of and I dont trust most of these small hand loader type of sales sites off the internet as many are not only over priced but under perform VASTLY from what they are capable of. Definitely a really cool pistol, I would love to have seen what could have been with that gun.
Call " trans- arms" in germany. They have millions of ammo 9*18 ultra. ( this is old info( 2012),but you can try.
@@alexandruborodin755 Oh if I still had the guns in question I would. For a while was trimming down brass and loading my own but was just a hassle so I stopped.
That looks like a 1911 coerced a Luger into an unhappy "relationship".
I wonder how these protoytes get developed and made.
I am imagining developers mostly at the drawingboard, but how soon do they go to the craftspeople to make certain parts?
Some help would highly appreciated :)
this thing is awesome!
Excellent
Good looking
They should check out Indukaiev's not-yet-patented inertial unlocking system
"... we have a PP style cocker" procedes to decock the pistol.
Back in.....2004? I traded a .380 Makarov for a 9mm Ultra Walther PP Super. The seller stated that this was a 9x18 Makarov, but in the European market, it was sold as 9mm Ultra. Ok. Sounds great. A total lie, but ok. So I loaded a mag of 9x18 Makarov, and the slide jammed. Some googling revealed the bamboozle. I just got a niche pistol caliber. Fine. So my father acquired a few boxes of ammo and shipped them to me....Along with about 4 homegrown Arkansas tomatoes. The box finally arrived with a bloody box of ammo and a letter from the post office stating to never mail tomatoes with ammo again. Well. The pistol shot great, but ammo was horribly difficult to find. The pistol was sold on gun broker shortly afterwards. The 9mm Ultra was the civilian legal cartridge for German citizens, and they imported a few to the US market. My pistol looked like a normal Walther PP.... but the ammo was fairly unobtainable.
The PP in 9mm Super was not about legality of the cartridge (Germany has never banned cartridges on the basis of its use in the military, like France and some other countries did), Walther tried to establish the PP Super as an upgrade over the regular PP, because the cartridge is noticeably more powerful than 9mm short.
And ammo was (and is) pretty difficult to get in Europe as well, since 9mm Super never took off.
I love it, but I'm slightly repulsed by the look of the front barrel.
For some reason, I like P38-style thin barrels and the smoother curves of the PPK.
Put them together and it doesn't end well.
That gun looks soooo good! Bring it back in .380 please!!
VERY COOL !!!!!
Thanks. This is really rare gun. What surprised me really is that it is LOCKED. Whew. Previous info about Ultra project is that is attempt to make cheaper (blowback) service pistol. I don't understand the reason if using locked action. OK, Germans "sometimes" forgot reason 😁 .. Still, isn't Ultra basically straight walled cartridge ? - ment for quite powerfull blowback pistol. I understand Ultra/Police as shortened/near straight walled case for .355 bullet, and Mak as Para case straightened, using larger diameter bullet, for use in blowback service pistol. Same thing, but accomplished different way. What about lineage ? Many think that Mak is no coincidence....
I want to ask why didn't they just use 9mm Parabellum but then I think about the blowback design being a factor. Does shortening a cartridge case by 1mm really have that much of an impact? Seems like the 9x18 would have only be 2-3 grains less powder than 9mm Parabellum... that's enough to do the trick?
Vegas Cycling Freak This gun is not blowback. It's a short recoil rotating barrel pistol.
Andrew Suryali -- Right... I was watching while working, I think I got that detail wrong lol. But still, I can't imagine there is that much difference between 9x18 and 9x19. I just wonder what the point is.
Vegas Cycling Freak I've wondered the same thing. Why so much difference between 9x17/18/19? Is 9x17 pushing the reasonable limits of blowback in a smaller pistol? Maybe it's my ignorance, but 9x17 always seems to be blowback while 9x19 is always some sort of locked breech.
The shortened case is only required so that the gun will not chamber a 9mm Parabellum round by mistake. It has no relation with the load contained. Power-wise the 9mm Ultra round is in the same ballpark of the 9x20 mm Browning Long, the 9x18mm Makarov and 9x19mm Glisenti. The first two had been specifically designed to be the most powerful load usable in a blowback pistol without weight disadvantages, the third one came to the same result by chance (infact it had been designed for the breechlock Glisenti 1910, but it was then fired by the blowback Beretta 1915 too).
Chop the barrel down to the slide, widen it slightly to support 9x19, and I'd carry that today. The perfect blend of compactness and style.
That would basically be the Walther P5C. A truly lovely pistol, like a 9mm Parabellum PP. IMO still the best thing Walther has ever put on the market.
You'd have about a one inch barrel
Ben D Jr that's fine with me. It is basically a pocket pistol after all.
Curious. Have you done any research on Pre-Beretta (Facist) .380 cal pistols? I've seen a nickel-plated version, with facist stamping. Someone told me it belonged to WW2 Italian Officer but ... I've only seen blued models on Ytube.
Just stay with 9mm but reduced recoil ammo.
Plus I've seen p38 with the external section of barrel flushed and the front site on frame and some with just enough external barrel to hold a front site. I assume these filled that role for flight crews etc that wanted it.