I think what also isn't discussed is that a lot of the time this Rachel Berry behavior is BRED. I have been in so many toxic theater programs that encouraged this cattiness or just mentally abused you to the point of begging for attention and adoration from those who already caused you harm which can create monsters. There is no self-care involved in theater education, especially at the middle school to even college level. I am glad that shows like HSMTMTS and even Smash for portraying more self aware "theater kids" and for TikTok showing theater kids being supported and encouraged without the diva behavior.
THIS!! So many people come up in a theatre program or setting that's super toxic, teaching that behavior and making actors thing that the business is just like that. But then you get out in the world and realize that shit doesn't fly. The whole business isn't like that, just assholes are like that.
Even just choir (no theater) could be really full of melodrama and toxicity, suck-ups and frenemies. I wasn't involved with it (though some of my friends got somewhat drawn in by being made to "choose a side" on occassion) because I was neither popular enough nor unpopular enough to draw attention. Which was just how I liked it, because even just watching it all go down from the sidelines had me shaking my head in disbelief and disgust. But theater... oh, I heard enough to know things were much (crazier) worse for my friends in theater... I didn't even want to know what was up (or down) with my art/drama-class friends' academic worlds anymore after a certain point. o__o
Just remember, Sharpay isn't the antagonist because she's a theatre kid or because she's girly, she's the antagonist because she's a jerk. She had already been the lead in 17 shows and she couldn't handle the possibility of losing 1. She was also a bully and resorted to harassement and sabotage in every film. People who try to claim Sharpay is the 'victim' are often theatre kids who don't want to admit they can be toxic.
Agreed- Sharpay isn't the nicest or kindest of people. But think about the story from her perspective. The thing she takes so super seriously and works so hard for was totally disrupted by 2 new kids, one super confused and non-committed to the theater (Gabriella) and the other actively shitting on it (Troy). Theater is all she had and she actually wanted to have a career in it, whereas everyone else was doing it sort of like a hobby or an extracurricular. From someone who liked the Troy and Gabriella OTP as a teenager and now just finds them annoying, I actually understand Sharpay Evans a lot more now that I am in my mid 20s.
Sometimes I felt sorry of her that she never get what wanted. But the best part that her characther development are huge improved so much that everyone needs..
@@IAmOmniscient i do appreciate people who throw themselves into the work they want to do, i myself am a person that builds and builds their CV, but sometimes you are not what the production needs. As a performer, auditioning is your true job, because director look for who fits the part, its not about how talented you are how much you work, its about being the piece they need for the big picture, for the whole play. You cant take those decisions personally, and cant be whining about not always being a lead. This type of art its not a competition but a team work, if someone unexperienced starts their intrest/work experience in the same art as you because they fit the part better, when you have already been lead in 17 productions, then its not bad at all. Sharpay treated theater like something you have to win -by building only yourself-, not something you have to build with others. PS: i love the character and i do see what you mean and thats how i saw it for a long time, yet after a few years i realized that not eerything can be gatekeeping and having a pick me attitude. /also, sorry if i write funny, this ain´t my 1st lenguage. xo
I recommend watching The Film Theorists’s video about High School Musical, it gave me a new perspective about Sharpay’s character and it might do the same for you. Hope you like it :)
@@IAmOmniscient I'd feel worse for her if she wasn't actively a jerk before Troy and Gabriella got the callback. Her actions make her the antagonist, not her dreams. Again, 17 shows already, her resumé wasn't going to suffer. Also, Troy didn't shit on theatre, that was Chad. And Sharpay freaked out at Gabriella just looking at the audition sheet when she didn't even know her.
So we put teenagers in a highly competitive environment, tell them that maybe one in the group can make it in their dream profession, apply adult's physical standards and work ethics on them, criticize the living hell out of them in front of their peers weekly during their most vulnerable years, put them on a literal stage without so much as professional mental coaching, and then vilify them for being competitive and no team players? Yeah, sounds about right.
@@danielhart7435 that was Basically the treatment of Rachel during Glee. Of course this does not excuse her behavior but people tend to judge Rachel more and excuse the other characters because they are more pleasant.
@@hey_anarchy hmmm I would agree with this if Rachel herself wasn't a bully. I mean sure, people made fun of her for being high strung. But she treated everyone with even an ounce of talent measurable to hers like a foe to be bested. And always bested them. I wasn't a theatre kid, but as someone who was bullied for being an art nerd, It didn't sit right with me that other art nerd victims used it as an excuse to "dominate". Especially when the people they were directing aggression to were fellow victims of the type bullying they faced.
the thing about glee is that every character (at least in the first seasons) was a walking stereotype and it was meant to be that way to make fun of different tropes in a satirical way. see rachel being the self centered theater star, kurt being the flamboyant gay kid, mercedes being the black diva, santana being the sassy latina, britanny being the dumb blonde and so on. obviously that satire got lost at some point between the later seasons and the show lost its magic but it originally started with that premise, that's why rachel's character just feels like a joke, because it's meant to be one
yes! The first season is great since the characters are intentionally written as over the top to highlight those stereotypes. I always thought Rachel being obnoxious was intentional and I really appreciated the show being self aware of that. That intention unfortunately doesn't translate in the later seasons.
And look at pitch perfect ( the first one ) Also took some tropes and turned them around so much it was what made it so relatable like in the riff off one of the topics was songs ruined by glee.. and some of the actors got their start in glee.
I could NEVER stand Rachel. No matter how insufferable she was, she got everything handed to her. And while Lea Michele IS very talented, by the way they'd go on about her, you'd swear that she was the ONLY cast member who had any genuine talent!
Absolutely. And she wasn't. She may have had a slight edge in control, Mercedes could literally blow the walls out in power. Santana topped her with range. They were all insanely talented. I really wished they had done Glee more like Fame with a gradually evolving cast.
SUPRISE! I am the funniest YTer evah!!!! Just kidding, it was no surprise. Everybody knew already. HAHAHHAHA!!!! That was an amazing joke (it was real talk though). WAWAWAWAWA!!!! Good afternoon, dear tri
It always bothered me how they acted as if she was the only talented one, or the most talented one, when Mercedes was just as talented with more versatility
Do viewers not realize that Glee was always over the top? In the first episode the teacher sneaks into the locker room, records a football player singing in the shower, and blackmails him to join the glee club.
There is over the top and there is just behavior that should not have been satirized at all, but the show would not have started if it were not for the shower scene. Hate myself for saying that.
@@BlueBlazeKing Oops I was mistaken. I remember the blackmail and I thought it was (an audio) recording of him singing, but you're correct, he planted drugs in his locker instead.
This is a very American-centric POV where school cliques like the jocks vs the nerds and outcasts etc are more pronounced. Growing up in an Aussie high school, at least not in mine, it was never considered uncool to sign up for the school musical. In fact, lots of kids did...but mostly cos it was considered badass to be able to get out of lots of classes to instead reherse for the show. Plus many of the so called "cool kids" would also sign up for the band or the tech and support crew roles making it a true ensemble of all different types of kids. It was actually quite the bonding experience and most kids, again, at least in my school, all thought it was a positive thing not worthy of being mocked.
It's a very 'Breakfast Club' sensibility isn't it? I grew up and went to school in Scotland in the eighties in a small industrial town, and honestly, I never recognised any of these tropes. I'm not saying there weren't cliques, but I guess they weren't so easily defined and recognisable. Anyway, the kids in our drama club all seemed to be quite popular and from the wealthier echelons of the town, they certainly didn't seem like outsiders although I have no doubt they often felt like it being teenagers!
It's definitely American pop-culture/hollywood media-centric. As someone from Southeast Asia, the theatre kids were often the most popular students in school because, honestly, who has the balls to go on stage to sing and perform in front of hundreds of people? It's definitely (the show) something not to be taken as representative and in any form of serious discourse, because watching the athletes and cheerleaders be popular in the show was always funny for me considering, in my high school, we hardly care about our varsity teams winning competitions (a big portion of this is probably because it wasn't made mandatory to show up in inter-school games).
The fact is though theatre (and acting in gneeral) is elitist. Singing lessons and dancing lessons aren't cheap.neither is drama school. Neither is having to depend on mammy and daddy to cover your rent when you haven't worked in months. Watch an awards show and see how many actors of working class backgrounds win an award guarantee they'll be in the minority. And I say all that as someone who adores musical theatre.
This hits hard. I'm Latina and grew up very very poor. I worked my ass off to afford college (and still owe money anyway) but it's been hard. I'm a designer/technician, and I do theatrical scenic design, painting, and carpentry, and there's no way right now I could support myself trying to chase that full time (and tech isn't nearly as cutthroat as acting). I'm working retail trying to find opportunities but they're scarce since I don't live in a big city. At best, I'm trying to find things even marginally related to start my career. I'm looking to carpentry work I can do, bc I truly love it in a theatre setting or not, but being a young, small woman in the business creates its own barriers. There are just so many variables. Even with drive and motivation it's completely discouraging. I'm trying to not give up, but it's impossible for me to imagine being able to ever support myself solely through the arts, not even by taking on multiple projects/side hustles at a time. This shit can really destroy you physically (depending on your area of speciality) but especially mentally.
100% spot on. I’m a singer, actress, dancer and I cannot afford to pursue it 100% without a support system. So now I’m a stripper saving up my money, so I can take a break eventually to focus on auditions. I wish I could have been a trained prima ballerina but poor kids can’t afford training in the arts
Honestly, Sharpay is kinda groundbreaking for portraying the theatre geek as the most popular person at school, and shes more leaning towards the queen bee troupe then the theatre kid troupe. And in Sharpay’s defense, most of her “mean” actions aren’t really driven by theatre or preserving her status, but her obsession with Troy.
Was she the most popular tho? I love her I really do but she was pretty and rich, socially she mightve been famous for being this theatre star but Troy was the popular one
My niece is a theater kid and she absolutely had one of these girls in her group. She left the group and joined one with a much more inclusive attitude and is much happier.
I don't think that people now are able to understand the art of sarcastic and sardonic writing and the brilliance of the actors that have to pull it off. If All in the Family or The Jeffersons or Maude or The Smothers Brothers or Laugh-In, etc. were made now, they would be cancelled in a week. That would be a sad loss of great writing, acting and viewing.
I swear Rachel having a ballad every single episode is annoying, sometimes it pays off (such as the deal with her mom, or you know about Finn) and sometimes is just ridiculous as she sining a song about how sad and miserable she is because Finn got mad at her.
I disliked how the show try to focus so much on her. When I DVRed it I wanted to fast forward through her parts. I liked everyone else's stories, but hers. She was boring and annoying.
Something I learned as an adult is that theatre becomes toxic when you approach it like a competition instead of a passion and as soon as I stopped persuing it as a career and just enjoyed it as a hobby I actually had so much more fun with it.
If you're going to do a Squid Game video (and you definitely are), you should do one about artificial fairness in death games. The creators keeps banging the drum about how the game is meant to be fair for all players, but it's clear that things are incredible unfair, and it's meant to be that way.
@@gregvs.theworld451 -I’ll say how. Spoilers below: They act like anyone can win the games, but Game #5 makes it virtually impossible for anyone at the beginning to hop across the glass bridge successfully. Game #2 also includes much, much harder shapes than a triangle
@@cthulhutheendless1587 I got especially mad at how they organised game 5 like the lights? The end which robbed number 67? But the since the rich are behind it we couldn’t expect honest fairness
I dont think Glee can be used as a serious subject for discourse and discussion based on its absurdity. You're making a point that rachel is a stereotypical theatre kid, but rachel is just a badly written character based off the writers hatred/love for the actress playing her, depending on the day and who was writing. Nothing is fixed in Glee, its moot.
Rachel falls into the "Rory Gilmore/Ted Moseby" syndrome where the charecter is otherwise insufferable but Shows Creator love their creation and still see them as the relatable everyman/woman and they kind of try to rationalize their bad actions/traits as not bad. I guess it's just even more muddied with people now because of Lea Michelle's offscreen reputation
Almost none of the shows/movie and tropes that this channel discussed can be qualified as a serious subject for discourse. They are mainly escapist media, Glee is no different.
@@Account.for.Comment this is a boring and pretentious take 💀 people feel all media works and doesn’t work for different reasons no matter just because you consider a pice of media to be “escapist” doesn’t mean it doesn’t have tropes and themes good or bad that can be discussed and analyzed
@@ambiguouslybrown5951 How about an extra explamation? If Glee should not be discussed because because the writing and characterization is inconsistent and the theme changed from episode to episode then it was true for the majority of American television format, which the majority of this channel covered. Second, going by the late Roger Ebert rule, when you watched Shaolin Soccer, you discussed its merit to other comedy and when you watch an arthouse, you don' t compare them to a tentpole blockbuster. The values they aimed for do not matched. Glee matched the others. Third, by saying escapist media, I'm not denigrating the media in itself, but the expectation its creators want from their audience. Humonculous the manga is a cynical character study about identity and ethics, Humonculous the Netflix Adaptation is a supernatural romance. One is definitely a much more serious subject.
Wait - *GLEE* made the Theatre Kid trope toxic? Spoken like people who were never in show choir… I didn’t need TV to tell me theater kids are toxic; four years of chorus, band, and school musicals taught me plenty.
I was in theater for years, but I was never in "that" group, and even when I got more responsibilities/praise whatever, I still felt like the outcast within the theater crowd. Yeah... it was really intimidating, but I guess they don't call it DRAMA for no reason!
Do you know what kind of story I would love to see with the theater kid? A theater kid whose goal is NOT to be the lead role. Think about it. They love performing, they love singing and dancing BUT HATE being the center of attention, therefore, they feel more comfortable working with a group rather than in the spotlight by themselves.
As a theater kid myself, I can definitely say that my main goal was never the lead role, I just wanted to be on stage. Trust me, if you're a good actor, you can shine in whatever role you get. As they say, there are no small parts, only small actors.
Yes! This would be a great one. I have read books about sports where there is a supporting character (and a few short stories where they are the lead character), with the most prominent in film probably being Aubrey Montague in _Chariots of Fire,_ who realizes that he/she will never be the star or a champion, but wants to be a part of the world. Since most of us will end up away from the spotlight, I think that it's good to show that story, too.
Yes! And it’s a real thing, too. I was a theater kid in the 70s (yep, youngsters, I’m a dinosaur!) in a non-school independent group. We were all misfits of one kind or another and the overriding interaction was supportive and cooperative, not competitive. The acknowledged “most talented” in the group (who happened to be my best friend!) was one of the best, kindest people I’ve ever known, not a diva at all. And a number of us-myself included-were exactly as you describe here: decently talented/capable, but not really interested in the center spotlight. Hell, much as I liked performing, I was a writer first, and eventually wrote a bunch of original material for the group, which I found way more thrilling. In any case, that group, those experiences, the dedication of our director, all contributed to giving me the courage to flee my abusive home when I was 15. Probably saved my life. And was among the most fun I’ve ever had. Oh, yeah: my older daughter was a theater kid as a teenager, too. Wildly talented, to the point that we were encouraged to get her head shots and take her to auditions, that kind of thing. Her directors fully expected her to become a successful professional. She decided not, and is a farmer. Not everyone schemes for the top spot!
@@literaterose6731 Very interesting journey in the theater world. I did some plays as a kid in the late 80s and early 90s, but being a teenager with a baritone voice and too short and skinny to play adults pretty much ended that. What you said about writing reminded me about something I read that the members of Monty Python didn't really have too many fights about star turns because they saw themselves as writers first and foremost. Even for _The Holy Grail,_ Graham Chapman ended up taking the lead in part because nobody else wanted it and found the side characters more fun to play.
Truthfully, glee was never a good show for representation of outcasts and minorities. It tried so hard to make us feel that being a performer was the lowest of the low. At McKinley High School it is worse to be in the glee-club than it is being science geek or a player for the unsuccessful sports teams. That is already pretty ridiculous to accept that everyone in the whole school target people for singing in a group environment, when no one had it out for any of the members when they were not part of the glee-club. Anyways, glee ended up feeling like Ryan Murphy's attempt to villainise the popular kids because he felt like an outsider in school - probably the same as most of the creators behind our teen-favourites. The difference for glee is just that is difficult to root for the protagonists since most of them are super annoying caricatures meant to represent one whole minority, but most characters get so little screen-time the audience isn't encouraged to care about them. When I was growing up watching the first season, I wanted more Tina because she was the goth girl and I liked the emo bands of the 00s, but they just gave up on her character and made her date the only other Asian character in the cast. It truly appears that though Murphy wanted to capture what it was like being young and needing a place to feel safe and included, but like with all of his projects, he bit off more than he could chew, and glee became a giant mess. But at least it is really fun to analyse the characters.
To be FAIR, in the late 2000s/early 2010s, there wasn't a lot of diversity in teen television (at least in Western media). Glee definitely was one of the earlier shows that helped pave the way for LGBTQ+/POC characters to be featured in a more leading capacity and to have actual story arcs. In season 1, even if they embodied stereotypes (which I think was intentional early on), characters like Kurt at least had more depth beyond just being a walking stereotype. Ofcourse, the later seasons kind of ruin development for a lot of the characters so idk what to say about that...
@@shineon6584 i would argue that ryan murphy did as much damage (if not more) as he did good for representation. his shows tend to make everyone unlikeable and punch down on the people of color/lgbtq+ characters in his shows. it seems like the more involved he is in his productions the more harmful they are. he gets way too many passes for generally being an asshole on set as well from what i've heard.
I am SO glad I participated in theater at a small school. There was no hard feelings or cut throat competition around auditions, EVERYONE was required to participate in tech crew, and tech crew wasn't left in the dust. The theater kids were as far away from the Sharpays and Rachels as possible. If anything our theater kids were more like Rebecca Bunch. An intense love of theater, participation, and singing off key didn't land you in a pit of disrespect from the director or other actors
This has been my experience in theater. I didn't become involved in theater until I was in college, because the theater kids at my high school emulated Sharpay and Rachel. It wasn't like that with adults who had matured and had more experiences than my high school friends. I just got done with A Midsummer Night's Dream and the whole cast and crew supported each other instead of backstabbing each other. Cruel jokes and bad behavior, if it happened, was handled with care and maturity.
As a black girl who grew up watching Glee and has rewatch the series multiple times, I can tell you now that they barely handled important topics well. Particular Mercedes being black. At times they made her so much of a caricature of a black woman, that it made me uncomfortable even as a kid. They made her appear lazy, even though in previous episodes she worked as hard as the others. They made her mention weave and obsess over food, be loud and say slang that sounded out of place. She literally sung that terrible song. Oh Hell to the Naw or whatever. So no, Glee failed miserable at attempting to discuss race. They made Kurt a caricature at times which is odd seeing as the show was created by a gay man. I hated how instead of evolving a lot of the characters, they pushed them to the back for it to become the Rachel Berry show. That was Glee's ultimate downfall. Revolving everything around Rachel. If they would have gave everyone an equal amount of screen time, story involvement, and overall character development then this show would be twice as iconic. The only reason it is big is because most of the fans of the show if not all understood what is was like to be outcast or underdogs. We tried to see ourselves through the characters because what other show had people who looked like regular people on tv going through what some of us had been through in terms of the hell that is high school. They did it while singing. It was fun but it was also hurtful in a lot of areas. I was happy to see a bigger black girl like me at the time. But i hated how they treated her characters and other minorities.
Yeah I agree. They should have made Kurt and Mercedes less stereotypical caricatures but people with real storylines so that we could become more attached to the characters. The only one Kurt had that I liked was the harassment and bullying he experiences that led to his transfer. It felt a lot more real. But I really wish they had done more for Mercedes and not have her storylines be superficial and last only 2 episodes. Honestly, I also don’t think they handled Rachel’s character well. I like characters with flaws and season 1 Rachel had flaws but also a lot of heart and vulnerability. First season was pretty good with the adoption storyline but after yikes… They revolved her entire character around Finn for three good seasons instead of letting her grow as a person, grow out of the high school boyfriend, maybe face the fact that she obsesses over certain things in her life to ignore the harassment she receives at school, the fact that her dads are never home and that she’s just been abandoned by her mother. There was a lot to work with Rachel’s character in comparison to Mercedes who we basically never saw her life outside of school but the writers failed both characters.
Completely agree…but also it makes sense they became best friends as well bc they both love Broadway. So you can get behind it with their shared love they bond over. Where as Mercedes wanted a different life path?
Agreed. Kurt and Mercedes were presented early on as the show's true besties -- along maybe with Santana and Brittanny, but these two had something else going on lmao. I was fine with Kurt and Rachel tentatively getting closer because of their shared interests. BUt as the seasons went on it was like all of Kurt's relationships were dropped -- except for Klaine -- just to focus on his friendship with Rachel. During and after Season 4, Kurt just became Rachel's gay best friend and nothing more. He was and still is my favourite character, and all his individuality and personality were removed for him to become the gay BFF who sometimes has relationship drama with his BF.
People seem to forget that Glee was and always has been a satire, first and foremost. It and HSM didn't create the annoying theatre kid trope, it only embodied and exaggerated the trope so it could make their characters more interesting and flawed: Rachel's egotistical and entitled attitude is meant to be entertaining, not taken seriously, and I'm 100% sure if she was originally nice and friendly, ppl would've complained that she's too boring instead-
OK, I understand your point, but I have a problem with the lack of character development and lack of accountability. The show tried it in some episode and then abandoned it. I am talking about all characters.
I also understand your point. It's just when Rachel does the same mistake over and over again, it stops being funny. If her being egotistical and overly dramatic was entertaining in the first season, from the second it went downhill. And honestly, when you watch a TV show with many episodes and duration approximately 40 minutes, with a plot that does explore characters' personal lives, it impossible to not take some of it seriously, even if all of it was meant as a satire.
the show takes itself seriously and clearly wants the audience to take it seriously in a lot of the parts. it's not good writing when the audience can't even tell which parts to take seriously
The only thing more toxic than the “theater kid trope” is the entertainment industry, and the way we love to both worship and hate performers and artists. As you state in the video, almost no one makes a living as a performer, and yet the people who do are some of the richest and most influential people in society. What are young people supposed to think when they see that? Either they have an overinflated sense of their own talent and self-worth, or they give up without really trying, because everyone in their life is telling them that it’s too hard and they aren’t good enough to make it. Becoming obsessed with the craft and doing unethical things are understandable reactions to being constantly told that their goals are almost impossible to achieve. People who get some power in the industry exploit the people bellow them, because it’s so easy to replace performers who won’t go along, and because one good word or introduction can mean the difference between success and failure. Performers are conditioned to tolerate abuse. This is a result of the extreme imbalance of power, not bad apples, and you see it in professional sports too (especially in sports associated with women, like gymnastics). Some people may see Rachel as a villain, but I think the show encourages us to sympathize with her as well, even when she behaves badly. Yes, we accept her bad behavior more because she is talented. It’s not exactly fair, but it does emphasize that even the most talented performers are driven to such extremes in order to succeed. There is tragedy in that, more so than there would be with someone who wasn’t actually a good performer. Rachel is both victim and abuser in the show. It’s exaggerated, but not necessarily inaccurate. The kids who don’t intend to go into show business don’t have the same attitude towards it, and that also makes sense. Additionally, I think this video ignores how gendered this stereotype is. "Jocks" are often portrayed as status/praise-obsessed jerks and villains too, but few people have a problem with this portrayal because we accept that it's more natural/acceptable for men to be overly ambitious and aggressive. We are much more uncomfortable with women (and "effeminate" men) who take up too much space/attention/praise in the world. Female entertainers are historically associated with prostitution and acting as mistresses to powerful men. Their role was to be half artist, half sex object. In one sense they were glamorous and desirable-the embodiment of female allure-and in another they were ridiculed and reviled. The legacy of these attitudes endures and drives some of the love/hate relationship the public has with entertainers. The young women in these shows see actresses as embodiments of female beauty, power, and appeal. Top performers are showered with adoration and praise, but also deeply resented for the pressures and insecurities they invoke in others. You can see this as a sort of toxic femininity, where you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t, and that battle initially plays out between Quinn and Rachel over Finn’s attention. The show could definitely be more nuanced, but I don’t think that it particularly demonizes Rachel or people who love theater.
As a Theater Kid, I was super excited about Glee, and wanted to be like Rachel. I soon realized that I was more of a Mercedes or even Tina. I realized that my rival was the true Rachel, and that I couldn’t win against her.
@@danderson8431 That's somehow sadder. But hey, you may not be working with Lin-Manuel Miranda but neither is her (I assume, or else you'd mention in your original comment).
You can't vilify people who you find intimidating or who are more talented than you it is then you. Is. By saying you are like Mercedes or Tina is saying You only realize that you're not as good as you want to be Or you're not the best. There will always be someone better
I honestly always admired Sharpay’s and Rachel’s ambition, and while I agree that their methods may not have always been the most thought out, I think that people tend to put all the blame on them for everything. No one likes when things don’t go according to plan, but of course the solution would be to remain calm and try to find a solution calmly. Of course, we are all only humans, which means we are all flawed, so mistakes are bound to happen. However, I don’t think that pummeling anyone to death, figuratively or literally, is the way to resolve such issues.
am i the only one who enjoyed rachel's character? i didn't necessarily like her all the time (lol i didn't like her most of the time) but i appreciated that she was allowed to be rude and self-centred and egotistical. she had genuine real flaws instead of like glamorous cute flaws like being quiet or clumsy. glee's biggest issue is that they never gave rachel space to grow, i don't think she should have ever gotten into nyada and then had to learn to work from there, but on the whole i enjoyed that rachel was allowed to be unlikeable. it was one of the more realistic depictions of an overzealous high school student i'd seen!
I always found her compelling too. just like I did most of the female characters on this show because they all had real flaws and could be really mean at the drop of the hat. Not necessarily a good thing but it just made everyone interesting. Tbh, the character that I disliked was Finn (no hate to the actor rip). I disliked that he was treated like the greatest thing ever by fans and characters when I just couldn’t see it.
@@Melanie-jy2nw oh my gosh, I feel the same way. Finn was horrible. I feel very sad for what happened to Cory but his character was really bad and I couldn’t understand what talent everyone kept talking about.
Rachel Berry may have been annoying, but Glee's commitment to have all teenagers be extremely flawed and terrible sometimes still makes for a million times more interesting characters than todays protagonists who have to have a "likable personality"/are one-dimensional so audiences can consume teen shows easily. This new wave of teenagers who can't handle unlikable characters who mess up is so wild to me.
honestly!!! I was a very unlikeable and chaotic teen in many ways, as were my friends. It's normal to be kinda awful while you're still figuring life out. The erasure of this reality in media is causing literal children to expect themselves/each other to have the mental stability of a 40 year old yoga instructor.
the show was about how it takes teenagers/young adults a long time and making many mistakes to figure out what is important in life. Expecting fictional 18 year olds to have a perfect moral code is insane and incredibly BORING. If they're already perfect what are they supposed to learn during the show then?
@@Prosaic0 we've definitely progressed in terms of tv currently airing, but back in 2009 when the likes of the vampire diaries and teen wolf and pretty little liars were airing, all the protagonists had flaws like "too noble" or "too loyal" or "too brave". nowadays we have room for a lot more complex characters (e.g. sex education, never have i ever) but back in 2009 rachel was kinda the only character that was allowed to make mistakes and not be painted as the villain
Yeah they don’t get to be the protagonist and the narcissistic bitch. We get Quinn’s and Santana’s who were (as of season 1) minor antagonists and bitches but nobody blinks at that. I think it was a shock to people who were so used to the Elena Gilbert archetype of protagonist. I liked how ambitious her character was and how she always knew what she wanted.
Female main characters can't catch a break; if they're too nice, they're called boring and flawless, if they're too bitchy, they're called selfish and unlikeable to root for-
@@itspienoon7883 i think this happens when the characters "unlikeable" trait isn't met with equivalent consequences. I'm thinking of how people hate Emily from Emily in Paris, because she never seemed to any real repercussions for her behaviour. The same with Rachel
@@Melanie-jy2nw real Elena Gilbert was a bitch in the books, but tv Elena had to be more palatable to attract viewers. Another example of the Elena trope 😓🤦🏻♀️
@@mynameisuju exactly! I might have actually liked Rachel more if she faced real consequences instead of occasionally having Mr Shu snap at her. Would have liked her more if they leaned into her being a bitch instead of constantly trying to get the audience to root for her regardless of how obnoxious she was.
Has moments and charm at times, but surprised she never uses her underhanded moments against her bullies. You think a slushie to the face so many times would make her snap back
This was always something I was so jealous of, because it seemed that all American and Japanese schools had so many clubs and after-school activities. In my country, at least where I lived at the time, there was hardly anything like that, mostly just church or a few sports clubs. Everything else you could only do if your parents had enough money, because everything was super expensive.
Are you from Latinoamerica? Because it was the same for me, i always wanted to have theatre in school but sadly my school only had some acts and performance, the most "theatre" things we had was a some small plays and dances.
@@despinasgarden.4100 we didn’t have a theatre club in Australia either. We have community theatres, not school productions for the most part. There is Drama as a class you can take, and they occasionally put on a show I guess- but only the year 12 kids? I dunno, I wasn’t in Drama in year 12. But we also don’t have school sports like America does either. It seems a lot of things revolve around their school that here, revolve around community groups. Which is unfortunate, given that a lot of parents don’t have the time or money to get their kids into after school activities. Maybe if it was all run through schools, more kids would have the opportunity to participate.
I think Rachel was the way she was because she was bullied her whole life and the only thing people ever complimented her for was her singing. She kind of keeps her ability to perform and her self worth in the same bottle, so that’s why she had to be so competitive. She was still shitty, but I feel for her more than I feel for other characters who always bullied her for traits that they displayed just as much as Her
Before she was bullied, and she was bullied for her personality more than anything, her theatre loving fathers raised her as a singing dancing twirling diva. It's been stated many times on the show
@@monochromatic_melodramatic well, that’s kind of my point. People only tolerated her for her talent. Though I do think it’s hypocritical because Mercedes’, Kurt and Santana were all divas
@@winxclubfairiesrule1 I think its because they had development in a way. They weren't perfect but they had more empathy for others, even Santana in a way. Racheal had multiple times to prove that she would change/ be better but would only do the right thing as long as it wasn't to big of a sacrifice or threatening her dream. Also, i think she rubs people the wrong way since even though her diva attitude does come from her belief that she is way more talented , it also comes off as entitlement since she's a cishet white women. Mercedes, Kurt, and Santana were never divas. The show tried to paint them as divas when they were just showing they were just as talented if not more than Racheal and just wanted a chance to be in the spot light since will always favored her. Racheal actively sabatoged or threw fits if the others were rightfully allowed to be the center of attention so she seemed to be the only diva. Theres a difference between confidence and being a diva.
As of 2021, I'm 33. I was a theater kid in high school, went on to major in it in college, and am now working at it as my craft. But I always felt quite different from other theater kids because I also happen to be visually impaired and, for all of the performing arts' discussions of "diverse casting" when it comes to people of color, the LGBTQ+ community, etc., performers and creators with disabilities are still often overlooked. We're rarely included in the creative process and able-bodied actors are cast to play us because it's assumed that playing a disability is the same as any other acting transformation. It's not, and it sure as hell isn't a golden ticket for winning an Oscar or Tony. Productions today wouldn't be caught dead hiring white actors to play characters of color in black/brown face, so the fact that able-bodied writers and actors telling stories of characters with disabilities is still so common and accepted in the craft and by audiences isn't cool. Artists with disabilities exist and we're longing to work in this industry; the industry just needs to recognize, include, and accommodate us. If anyone's curious, a current project I'm working on is a play adaptation of "The Man Who Laughs" by Victor Hugo. It's set in 18th century England and follows Gwynplaine, a young boy who is disfigured with a Glasgow smile on the orders of King James II as a punishment to Gwynplaine's rebellious nobleman father. Gwynplaine grows up knowing nothing of his aristocratic background and instead becomes a clown, working alongside a blind girl named Dea, and the two fall in love. But when Gwynplaine's past is discovered by Queen Anne's court, he's whisked away to be reinstated to his father's titles because the nobles think he'll be an easily-controllable puppet. And that's all I can say without spoiling the ending.
I love Sharpay too, always have,, but there's nothing wrong with Gabriella. Considering her dad was out of the picture, she was moving schools frequently and it's implied she was bullied before, its no wonder she had some trust issues. Sharpay is iconic but she did some shitty things
Gabriella was good wtf, she was shy, but she liked to sing even if it wasn't her priority, she was kind and nice even to those bad people who treated her really bad (cough Sharpay cough) plus she actually was pretty talented. Sharpay is iconic and funny, but she was a shitty person every movie until she had her own movie and finally showed her character development.
I like sharpay as the villain that she is. Why do people now have to justify her actions to like her? Gabriella was a hard working genius latina woman, with a single mother, who was able to be in decathlon, yearbook, musical theater and still managed to have a loving relationship with troy. She got into Stanford early admissions! But sharpay is the hardworking one apparently?
I love HSM. I love Sharpay’s talent, style and work ethic, but she’s mean, manipulative, entitled, selfish and materialistic. Also it really aggravates me that people exaggerate Gabriella and make her seem less likable than she actually is. Sure, she’s a bit of a Mary Sue, but she’s also sweet and caring. Gabriella is actually very overhated- she’s just as overhated as Tori Vega and Ally Dawson.
Hollywood hates anyone who is an expert at their craft. Have you been spending a good chunk of your time practicing and learning the skills needed to succeed at whatever? Well if this is a movie you’re screwed. Be prepared to lose to someone who just figured out they can do what you always wanted. If you bring this up. Congratulations you’re the villain.
Also pretty much every person in Glee is deeply flawed, in very extreme ways... That's kind of the point... To show that even though they are all humans under that extreme persona... And the show actually pulls no punches in showing how annoying/toxic Rachel actually is...
@@comparsa1 exactly... Like there's not a person on that series that hasn't done some trully weird/awful things... And judging from the fact that it started as satire, it doesn't surprise me...
@@estephanymatos8192 😖 Uh…. I literally spelled her NAME in my comment, so what do you mean “IF you’re talking about Shannen?” Obviously… I was referring to her.
Rachel being insufferable but talented and driven could've made her a good character if she wasn't constantly rewarded. She never experiences true consequences no matter how awful she is
I am surprised Tina only made a small appearance which is a huge symbol of her character. Tina also became an insufferable diva as the seasons progresses because like Rachel, the writers did not know what to do with her. She was mean and shallow and lost a huge portion of her identity. I get advocating for yourself, but they wrote her character to be nothing like who she was, in my opinion.
I loved being a theatre kid! I never really embraced it being uncool or for outcasts, I always saw it as fabulous and it was genuinely my life focus. I appreciate media that shows theatre as a legitimate pursuit to be super excited about and to feel proud of.
The very worst thing about Glee in my opinion? The shallow, performative attempts at diversity. It would've been one thing for the show to market itself as your average teen highschool drama with singing, but the show went out of its way to show off its "diverse" cast, which included the super stereotypical catty gay guy, the weird Asian goth girl who barely ever got any screen time, the African-American diva who was always pushed aside for the white girl, the guy in a wheelchair played by an able-bodied dancer, and oh yeah our two super-talented white hetero leads.
It was a much different time. Back then it actually wasn't expected for every single show to have a gay/bi character in it, and the ones that did they were usually minor characters, or were killed off, or got boy/girlfriends that were barely ever on screen and who they weren't allowed to be affectionate with beyond holding hands and a quick, light peck on the lips, etc. It's been just over a decade since Glee began, but the climate and culture that exists today and the one that existed back then were *radically* different.
@@jaernihiltheus7817 I have to agree. Watching it now, I can recognise the numerous issues that it has and how truly awful some of their attempts at inclusion are, but when I was 13 years old, I had never seen anything with a cast this diverse, I had never seen even one gay couple or gay character in a show before and at that age I was made to think that 'being gay is fine, but just be glad you're not gay' which is not a mindset I have at all now and that is largely due to glee. Despite the many failures of glee it was an incredibly diverse show considering the time it came out. Many LGBTQ+ characters, including a gay couple that brought up a child, rachel herself is jewish, black, latino and asian characters, multiple characters with down-syndrome, a disabled character, different body types are represented, mental illness is shown - such as Marley's ED and most notably -Emma's OCD. Ryder also has dyslexia. It was definitely not perfect, but it was still something. Ten years is a long time ago, a LOT has changed, and glee definitely played a part - even if its got issues
I should point out that Kathy, said those things to Don at the beginning because he was trying to gain sympathy from her for his “lonely Hollywood lifestyle” as he put his arm around her. She didn’t want to feed his ego.
Strange, the theater kids at my HS were lovely. We had odd traditions like girls' parties where we decorated clothes that the boys crashed (in costume and character). It was the best part of being HS. Our CATS had 99 kids in it between the cast, crew, costume/makeup, and orchestra. People did it because they loved being creative and part of the community.
@@imsadlol4528 damn homophobia in this day and age 😔😔 Jokes aside though, you can dislike his voice but saying he was an awful singer is objectively wrong. His technique is great, his voice is healthy and he makes great use of it. As a vocal coach, really the only criticism I have is that he tends to add a silent "h" in front of vowels sometimes. His singing is great, some people just can't handle the idea of a guy with a high voice 🕺✨ (by the way, Rachel's singing was also technically good, it's only towards the later seasons when she starts to slip up and kind off shred her vocal chords. But still nowhere near Mercedes level of good)
I wasn't allowed into the theatre clique. They had a core group in my high school who were pre-cast in any role they wanted in the season. I have no idea how I ever could have broken in. Nearly all had extensive professional theatre experience. There was little room for anyone who didn't have that resume or who wasn't one of the choir favorites.
I truly felt emotional sympathy for Ivy particularly during her painful loss in the final episode of Smash season 1. It genuinely appeared that she was going to commit suicide because she lost the most important lead role of her life to Karen and she will never achieve her dreams of stardom anymore. It was genuinely devastating.
Rachel can be really annoying, but I do really like her. Her character is really hard to have an opinion on because there's so much good mixed with bad. She's also the most realistic character from Glee IMO. Yes, she can be bratty and selfish, but she also has great qualities. It's so refreshing to have a protagonist who is actually nuanced instead of just being badass and perfect. I myself actually like Rachel Berry, as I think she's similar to Devi from NHIE. They're both talented hotheads, who want to fit in, but can be very rude or selfish about. I think it's more important to talk about why Rachel was feeling so much pressure, instead of blaming her for something that was pushed on her. I really see a lot of myself in Rachel. The insane pressure, the feeling that no one understands, the constant need to be the best. And I really appreciate how Glee portrayed that. If you hate Rachel, I understand. She's hard to like and can be toxic at times. But keep in mind that at the end of the day, Rachel is a human being. She makes mistakes, and it's important to note that Rachel has her own insecurities and troubles. It's no excuse for her actions but we should at least understand her character before judging her so quickly. Just my take.
THIS! YES! EXACTLY! I was always told I have a perfect voice, perfect pitch! Then in 10th grade my mom made me go into voice lessons and I realized just how much I was wrong about. I wasn't breathing correctly when singing, I'm apparently a soprano when I thought I was an alto. The lines on the staff are actual letters not just do mi re ect. It took me 5 entire lessons to even start to learn how to breathe correctly. And on top of that I heard other people in the voice lesson room singing before my lessons and they were SO MUCH BETTER! If you're told you're the best and that there's no way you could possibly be any better, and then you suddenly learn you ARE pretty good but still have a LONG way to go, It will give you SUCH an identity crisis.
Oh my gosh I love never have I ever. And Devi is a great example of an unlikeable but sympathetic protag. Maybe why I had a soft spot for Rachel too. But most people say that while Devi actively gets called out and faces consequences for her action Rachel doesn’t. Like with Rachel she gets bullied by Santana and Quinn but no one wants to take the side of mean girls. Meanwhile Devi gets called out by her friends, family, and therapist all the time. Not in a degrading way but in a way where they know she can do better
Glee is an excellent excercise in empathy. Can you understand that teens make mistakes while they are figuring out who they are? Can you give kids, even when they are annoying, the space they need to try themselves out and find their strenght through performing?
I can have empathy for these kids, but not those who take it too far. Harassing, bullying, sabotaging, and destroying others for their own ambition. They’ll continue to abuse others’ grace, empathy, and understanding unless confronted or checked eventually, if ever.
True but kids also need to face reality and consinquences sometimes. So they can learn how they want to be not be given free reign and forgiveness for everything.
Ryan Murphy's problem is he has empathy but only for toxic characters or villains. Those characters don't deserve empathy they deserve punishment for their actions that have a lasting effect.
@@NA86737 kids being too unexperinced to fully understand the impact of their actions and making mistakes are not villans. they are constantly punished in the show, which is their fault, but saying they don't deserve empathy or the chance for growth is wild.
I love Rachel Berry. Yes, she was awful, but so was every other character in Glee, at least the entertaining ones. However, she was always blunt about her ambition and talent, and that felt refreshing in a way.
Theater kids are the best when they are only in it for the fun of it. It become s toxic when cliques and bullies become involved. There should not ever be underdogs, gatekeepers, or elitists.
As a former theatre kid that acted in high school and now has a degree in scenic design/scenic painting...I've been waiting for this video my whole life lol drag herrr
Even though Rachel was annoying and a bad person, I thought her personality was kind of refreshing at first (not in the later season bc there is no character arc) bc she was not the stereotypical naive and good girl that main female characters are always portrayed as. She was selfish and competitive, which is total realistic if you want to be a successful person. I mean, let's be honest, kindness and good intentions don't take you anywhere in the real life, and most of the times the main protagonists portrayed in the media resolve their problems with kindness and love or whatever, like it's not very realistic. So, I thought Rachel's character was a realistic portrayed on how some people in real life truly are.
As someone who danced ballet when I was a kid, I was also so baffled by the cattiness of performing arts kids in media, as my studio was always such as supporting environment. But then, my studio didn't engage in competitions and the woman who owned it, who was a terrifying person who could have put the fear of God into Rachel Berry with a smile on her face, was very careful to make sure that every student had the necessary foundation rather than advancing kids to be on pointe as soon as possible.
honestly, if i were a passionate and seasoned theatre kid and some inexperienced people who auditioned on a whim took my lead role i would be upset too lmaooo (edit: also team ivy lynn)
Okay but the actual theatre kids back in high school were SUPER clique-y and pretty full of themselves lol. Idk if other schools had theatre departments that were actually welcoming but mine was not
Gosh, I have this experience right now. My old theatre group was so welcoming, friendly, and fun, and the one I’m in now is so exclusive that you have to do so much for so little. It’s exhausting
One thing that this misses out on is that Sharpay and Ryan are so utterly campy and fun, I remember more their over the top antics than Gabriella and Troy. Rachel on the other hand was frustrating then and has only aged worse.
When I was little I did musicals (not professional) for 10 years. There was ALWAYS someone (most of the time a girl) who would throw everyone under the bus to get the biggest part. And most of the time they were arrogant as well.
I feel like what makes Sharpay and Rachel different is that Sharpay realised you can't just be good, you have to really work and really love it. Rachel clearly expected to get whatever she wanted just because she was good, and didn't care that other people were just as good. Meanwhile, Sharpay adored what she did and worked hard for it, only to be upstaged by two people who saw the theatre as an excuse to flirt with each other and showed no real passion. Rachel loved the fame, Sharpay loves the theatre
I was so excited when glee first came out being a bit of a theatre kid, but holy crap we grew to hate this show I get the whole cast of stereotypes at the start but they really should have written that out and shown depth and made effort with the characters. And when they did the continuity would be forgotten for convenience and drama. They all have huge flaws but honestly some of the things they do cross a line at 'oh their young they make mistakes', and 'oh theyre only mean because of this sad backstory' yeah no. All the characters are pretty awful with Rachel berry being top of the list yet we're supposed to root for her and empathize with her?
It’s actually important to show that just because you’re the theater kid, that doesn’t mean you aren’t the asshole. Wanting fame isn’t noble. I like to use The Muppet Movie as a good example. Kermit wants to “make people happy”. That is a noble goal. He thinks about giving something, not getting something.
Well, I wouldn't say the audience is coaxed into rooting and feeling for Rachel. She's the main character or the one who receives the most screentime and showtime out of all the Glee club members. However, the show has much more interesting and beloved character than her such as Santana and Mercedes, who hold their own very toughly and solidly in front of Rachel's belting soprano notes (and knowing I'm a sucker for soprano, it actually tells you the strong impression these two ladies have left upon me).
Santana is a bad person; he is worse than Rachel; She does not grow up, she does not mature, she is a xenophobic racist and not because she is a Latina or a lesbian should give her a free pace, the same Kurt
As a performer, I can confidently say, if you find you are taking yourself too seriously...watch "Waiting for Guffman". Actually...everyone should just watch "Waiting for Guffman." Period.
Debbie Reynolds as Cathy, doesn't actually look down on Don Lockwood. She's putting on airs because the dude just dropped into her car, and is starting to hit on her, and he's acting big headed. She's puffing herself up and trying to not feel inferior.
If you're in theatre, educational or professional, it's so important to have friends and interests outside of theatre to stay grounded, take a break, and avoid burnout. It's especially good advice to date outside of your craft as well. It can work, but it's easy to have a contentious and competitive/unhealthy relationship if you're a theatre professional dating another theatre professional. Speaking from experience, it's important to compartmentalize, try to avoid taking your work home with you as much as possible, create boundaries, and surround yourself with other people with different qualities, jobs, and perspectives. It's healthy and can even help you improve your craft.
One thing I'd wish would go away is the "Practice every day" singer being passed over for "I kinda sing in the shower" ingenue. Make it realistic. Have the "ingenue" actor not practice for the audition number, and then put them up against the one who has been. Show how badly they'd actually do against somebody who is in top form vs their poor one. Use that as the starting point "Wow, I failed. I'm not as special as I thought" from the rando off the street would make a GREAT twist on all these stories.
I went to high school with a girl like that. she had had voice lessons from the time he was little all the way through high school and she thought that it meant she could boss around anybody at all in the choir and was really bratty besides. of course she was picked for every solo and was always the lead in the play both spring and fall .
Here is the issue with the theatre kid trope from an ex- theatre kid (who still enjoys theatre from a far) the people who grew up with this show a lot of them feel a connection to Rachel and her behavior down to a T. I've known many a people who crave and demand it. I also feel like setting the show in a Glee Club doesn't work with her overall character. If it had been a drama club it be a different story. Rachel just doesn't grow as a character and the fact that they felt the need to say over and over again how much the character was based on Lea just doesn't help the character or show age well at all. I got to deal with people who only like contemporary musical theatre, people who felt that Phantom and Les Mis were liking the "classics" (which I mean I guess), the is anyone going to come out of the closet already part of things, the "oh great the two straight guys are getting all the lead roles because they can pass," the kids whose family would buy two rows worth of tickets to ensure they be in every single show, stage parents, directors who get upset because you can't sell tickets to Man of La Mancha in the same way that you could Annie not that high schoolers should be putting on Annie (and we did), really creepy alum that are a decade older that are "best friends" with everyone, the male teacher who hits on the teenage girls blatantly and they are married with children, getting blamed because you didn't get a part in the show (that was a thing), drug addict dance teachers with stoner sons, the girl with 50 personalities that claims she is the best at everything but can't really do anything, directors who break you down mentally so they know how to get emotions from you and basically own your emotions at 14-years-old... Fun world.
Nothing is being “re-defined” or changed. Everything simply cycles. 10 or 20 years from now, there will be another character very similar to Rachel Berry. The reason it’s not happening now is because Glee Is not far enough in the rearview mirror for the TV and movie producers to think they can repeat the trope and sell it.
If any of you are into pro wrestling. Adrian English from the WWE is now doing a theater kid gimmick in Impact Wrestling and NJPW Strong as The Drama King. His theater kid energy is on point and he's a vastly underrated wrestler.
Very surprised that Centre Stage was not mentioned. As a “theatre kid” and now as a Professional running my own community theatre company, I wish that there would be more shows that look at all the time, dedication, hard work, energy etc. that it takes to even attempt this profession or even to be involved in a show. This is a Passion for many just like any other passion. A few years ago there was an experiment on a morning show where a bunch of professional athletes spent one day in rehearsals for a Broadway show. They couldn’t make it through the day! The athleticism of these performers is awe inspiring. Yes “being on Broadway” is aspirational. Of course it is. But people should be allowed to pursue their dreams as long as it’s not to the detriment of others (looking at you Rachel Berry).
As a theatre kid who has grinded for years to become someone who is powerful, kind, who has a good worth ethic etc. I wished that the industries that we worked for honored us as much as we honored it at times.
I’ve worked in a lot of schools and each has its own culture. One school was all about the basketball team and winning the championship. The other had the theatre kids and their musical. Etc. I think the social hierarchy depends on what the majority of the school values and where they shine
I always find these takes funny because Rachel Berry was my favorite Glee character, Sharpay was my favorite HSM character, etc. Yeah, they're both a little annoying, but that's part of the humor and fun. I personally like having imperfect, assertive, talented female characters. And in the case of Glee, Rachel was the glue that held that whole club together tbh.
I love Sharpay, she was always my favourite. But, I have a real issue with people trying to claim her as the 'true victim' when she's not. she's an iconic and enjoyable antagonist, we should appreciate that. As for Rachel, I think I would enjoy her more if characters like Mercedes and Tina didn't keep getting shoved to the side.
Yeah, Rachel really put in the most effort in the club and I appreciate that. It’s probably why I liked her so much but I wish Mercedes and Tina were given more opportunities to shine.
@@gleewhoseline198 I think a lot of hatred towards Rachel comes from the writers of the show sidelining other characters, when obviously that's not actually a characteristic Rachel can control (though I hate it too). I don't think I'd call Sharpay the victim either, but Iove her as a character
Rachel could've been such a powerful character if they kept some humanity in her. She had no remorse or consequences for anything she did. For example, when she openly admitted that Mercedes did better than her in the West Side Story audition. You can even see some vulnerability when they gave her the role out of pity but all of that was lost when she just went back to her petty self the next episode. They don't give you a chance to feel bad for her because she gets everything she wants. I never felt bad for the "superstar" Rachel Berry but I did feel for the awkward Rachel that got bullied. But then again, they didn't give you much to feel bad for.
For me, Rachel was rewarded constantly for being the worst. Not from a talent perspective, we can all hear how talented she, but from a behavioral one. And they gaslighting anyone who calls it out. She always makes it seem like she has to fight for things when they are handed to her and the one time she meets resistance to that she not only takes it personally but then is rewarded for saying i won't take that. She just never grows as a person and when that's your lead...oh boy.
I could not stand the theatre kids at school. They thought they were better than everyone else. Yet, I haven't seen anyone from my school in a tv show or film today. Worse than the theatre kids are the music kids. These kids always humming or singing quietly in classes other than music and are expecting compliments ,when you really want them to shut up.
Pretty sure that Cathy in Singing in the Rain isn't telling the truth when she says she's a theater actress. There's a deleted scene where she sings about how obsessed with Don Lockwood she really was. She loved movies. Otherwise she wouldn't have tried for and gotten the part in the musical that Don eventually finds her in. She just didn't like Don's arrogant attitude when she meets him so she takes a shot at his confidence. That's always been my reading of it anyway.
I was a theatre and choir kid all my life and the environment was pretty toxic. There was a lot of cattiness and a lot of girls like Rachel Berry. I can't say anything about university or broadway but based off of my local community theatre and schools that I attended the environment was pretty toxic and grew up being super insecure with myself because of it. Everything was a competition and no one was supportive of each other and people would try so many methods to mess with each other before the upcoming show hoping they could take the lead. I really hope no one has to go through that type of thing cause it is really painful. There is a lot of good about the theatre and choir program so I hope these types of toxic environments stop.
I was an actual theatre kid in highschool while Glee was on tv and I never actually got around to watching the show. I was too preoccupied with Supernatural and Doctor Who and actually doing theatre kid stuff like painting the sets and rehearsing shows and running lines. We were a bunch of weirdos telling stories. Was I particularly popular in school? No, not really. Did I care? Probably a little. High school was a rough time, but theatre helped me escape when I really needed one.
I am a theatre kid. I am a belter who a lot of people in my community consider to be very talented. And while I recognize the worth of others and don’t stomp on people to get my way, I know my worth and am very ambitious, with goals to be an actress and singer-songwriter and to write my own musical one day. Needless to say, this has made quite a few people not like me. Over the years I have had to deal with so many small minded, quietly sexist people calling me a know it all, bossy, a diva… all because I have a big voice, a lot of knowledge about music for a high schooler and am not afraid to speak my mind. And yes, I have had multiple people compare me to Rachel as a kind of back handed compliment. I have never watched Glee. However, a part of me will always resent it for the way it perpetuates the stereotype that goal-oriented, passionate and stubborn young women are by nature pushy harpies who throw tantrums when they don’t get their way. Girls are always seen as more appealing when quiet. How many times in media have we seen the protagonist be a gifted young woman who is both compassionate and NOT AFRAID OF HER TALENT? When this is the case, the young woman usually likes to draw. Because drawing is quiet. Drawing does not beg for attention. Enjoying the spotlight, wanting people to see and listen to you, is seen as selfish. I am so tired of ambitious girls being mean girls. I think it’s time we start seeing powerhouse singer heroines whose passions are given the respect they deserve. Who recognize their own talent, but also encourage the talents of others. Whose stubbornness is backed not by a shallow refusal to listen to the thoughts of others, but by confidence in their own principles.
For me the problem with Glee is that it never gave its charecters ability to grow up, change their behavior or own up their behavior.
Exactly. It just became insufferable after several seasons.
I agree 💯👍
Its the perfect Anti - Community
Yes!!
I saw part of one episode and thought it was the dumbest show ever. And I love musicals.
I think what also isn't discussed is that a lot of the time this Rachel Berry behavior is BRED. I have been in so many toxic theater programs that encouraged this cattiness or just mentally abused you to the point of begging for attention and adoration from those who already caused you harm which can create monsters. There is no self-care involved in theater education, especially at the middle school to even college level. I am glad that shows like HSMTMTS and even Smash for portraying more self aware "theater kids" and for TikTok showing theater kids being supported and encouraged without the diva behavior.
THIS!! So many people come up in a theatre program or setting that's super toxic, teaching that behavior and making actors thing that the business is just like that. But then you get out in the world and realize that shit doesn't fly. The whole business isn't like that, just assholes are like that.
Even just choir (no theater) could be really full of melodrama and toxicity, suck-ups and frenemies. I wasn't involved with it (though some of my friends got somewhat drawn in by being made to "choose a side" on occassion) because I was neither popular enough nor unpopular enough to draw attention. Which was just how I liked it, because even just watching it all go down from the sidelines had me shaking my head in disbelief and disgust. But theater... oh, I heard enough to know things were much (crazier) worse for my friends in theater... I didn't even want to know what was up (or down) with my art/drama-class friends' academic worlds anymore after a certain point. o__o
THIS!!!!
College theatre programs pride themselves on breaking you and making you cry. And, why do we support this?
And mr Schu did this! He was always putting them against eachother
Thanks for this.
Just remember, Sharpay isn't the antagonist because she's a theatre kid or because she's girly, she's the antagonist because she's a jerk. She had already been the lead in 17 shows and she couldn't handle the possibility of losing 1. She was also a bully and resorted to harassement and sabotage in every film.
People who try to claim Sharpay is the 'victim' are often theatre kids who don't want to admit they can be toxic.
Agreed- Sharpay isn't the nicest or kindest of people. But think about the story from her perspective. The thing she takes so super seriously and works so hard for was totally disrupted by 2 new kids, one super confused and non-committed to the theater (Gabriella) and the other actively shitting on it (Troy). Theater is all she had and she actually wanted to have a career in it, whereas everyone else was doing it sort of like a hobby or an extracurricular.
From someone who liked the Troy and Gabriella OTP as a teenager and now just finds them annoying, I actually understand Sharpay Evans a lot more now that I am in my mid 20s.
Sometimes I felt sorry of her that she never get what wanted. But the best part that her characther development are huge improved so much that everyone needs..
@@IAmOmniscient i do appreciate people who throw themselves into the work they want to do, i myself am a person that builds and builds their CV, but sometimes you are not what the production needs. As a performer, auditioning is your true job, because director look for who fits the part, its not about how talented you are how much you work, its about being the piece they need for the big picture, for the whole play. You cant take those decisions personally, and cant be whining about not always being a lead. This type of art its not a competition but a team work, if someone unexperienced starts their intrest/work experience in the same art as you because they fit the part better, when you have already been lead in 17 productions, then its not bad at all. Sharpay treated theater like something you have to win -by building only yourself-, not something you have to build with others.
PS: i love the character and i do see what you mean and thats how i saw it for a long time, yet after a few years i realized that not eerything can be gatekeeping and having a pick me attitude. /also, sorry if i write funny, this ain´t my 1st lenguage. xo
I recommend watching The Film Theorists’s video about High School Musical, it gave me a new perspective about Sharpay’s character and it might do the same for you. Hope you like it :)
@@IAmOmniscient I'd feel worse for her if she wasn't actively a jerk before Troy and Gabriella got the callback. Her actions make her the antagonist, not her dreams. Again, 17 shows already, her resumé wasn't going to suffer.
Also, Troy didn't shit on theatre, that was Chad. And Sharpay freaked out at Gabriella just looking at the audition sheet when she didn't even know her.
So we put teenagers in a highly competitive environment, tell them that maybe one in the group can make it in their dream profession, apply adult's physical standards and work ethics on them, criticize the living hell out of them in front of their peers weekly during their most vulnerable years, put them on a literal stage without so much as professional mental coaching, and then vilify them for being competitive and no team players? Yeah, sounds about right.
Smell of coffee and rain sounds AMAZING
Love this!! And also they justify their bullying to this kind of character with she/he/them is/are unpleasant so it does not matter they deserve it
@@hey_anarchy Anyone who says someone deserves to be bullied deserves to be bullied
@@danielhart7435 that was Basically the treatment of Rachel during Glee. Of course this does not excuse her behavior but people tend to judge Rachel more and excuse the other characters because they are more pleasant.
@@hey_anarchy hmmm I would agree with this if Rachel herself wasn't a bully. I mean sure, people made fun of her for being high strung. But she treated everyone with even an ounce of talent measurable to hers like a foe to be bested. And always bested them. I wasn't a theatre kid, but as someone who was bullied for being an art nerd, It didn't sit right with me that other art nerd victims used it as an excuse to "dominate". Especially when the people they were directing aggression to were fellow victims of the type bullying they faced.
the thing about glee is that every character (at least in the first seasons) was a walking stereotype and it was meant to be that way to make fun of different tropes in a satirical way. see rachel being the self centered theater star, kurt being the flamboyant gay kid, mercedes being the black diva, santana being the sassy latina, britanny being the dumb blonde and so on. obviously that satire got lost at some point between the later seasons and the show lost its magic but it originally started with that premise, that's why rachel's character just feels like a joke, because it's meant to be one
yes! The first season is great since the characters are intentionally written as over the top to highlight those stereotypes. I always thought Rachel being obnoxious was intentional and I really appreciated the show being self aware of that. That intention unfortunately doesn't translate in the later seasons.
Very true!
+
And look at pitch perfect ( the first one ) Also took some tropes and turned them around so much it was what made it so relatable like in the riff off one of the topics was songs ruined by glee.. and some of the actors got their start in glee.
isn't this ryan murphy's show? because i don't think anyone should take his characters seriously since 99% of them are satirical. lol.
I could NEVER stand Rachel. No matter how insufferable she was, she got everything handed to her. And while Lea Michele IS very talented, by the way they'd go on about her, you'd swear that she was the ONLY cast member who had any genuine talent!
Absolutely. And she wasn't. She may have had a slight edge in control, Mercedes could literally blow the walls out in power. Santana topped her with range. They were all insanely talented. I really wished they had done Glee more like Fame with a gradually evolving cast.
SUPRISE! I am the funniest YTer evah!!!! Just kidding, it was no surprise. Everybody knew already. HAHAHHAHA!!!! That was an amazing joke (it was real talk though). WAWAWAWAWA!!!! Good afternoon, dear tri
@HEЯOINE The actress had been on broadway WITH Lea Michele. But she NEVER got to really shine or show what she could do.
Lea is a bully and a racist
It always bothered me how they acted as if she was the only talented one, or the most talented one, when Mercedes was just as talented with more versatility
Do viewers not realize that Glee was always over the top? In the first episode the teacher sneaks into the locker room, records a football player singing in the shower, and blackmails him to join the glee club.
When did mr shue record him
There is over the top and there is just behavior that should not have been satirized at all, but the show would not have started if it were not for the shower scene. Hate myself for saying that.
@@gabrielleduplessis7388 no it’s agree and it’s really creepy but he didn’t record
@@thatsoely I don’t think he recorded him. He just planted drugs in his locker and forced him into the club
@@BlueBlazeKing Oops I was mistaken. I remember the blackmail and I thought it was (an audio) recording of him singing, but you're correct, he planted drugs in his locker instead.
This is a very American-centric POV where school cliques like the jocks vs the nerds and outcasts etc are more pronounced. Growing up in an Aussie high school, at least not in mine, it was never considered uncool to sign up for the school musical. In fact, lots of kids did...but mostly cos it was considered badass to be able to get out of lots of classes to instead reherse for the show. Plus many of the so called "cool kids" would also sign up for the band or the tech and support crew roles making it a true ensemble of all different types of kids. It was actually quite the bonding experience and most kids, again, at least in my school, all thought it was a positive thing not worthy of being mocked.
Tbh shool liques aren't this pronounced in American high schools either. It's literally just TV lol
It's a very 'Breakfast Club' sensibility isn't it? I grew up and went to school in Scotland in the eighties in a small industrial town, and honestly, I never recognised any of these tropes. I'm not saying there weren't cliques, but I guess they weren't so easily defined and recognisable. Anyway, the kids in our drama club all seemed to be quite popular and from the wealthier echelons of the town, they certainly didn't seem like outsiders although I have no doubt they often felt like it being teenagers!
This isn't representative of US high schools. It's an exaggeration at best
It's definitely American pop-culture/hollywood media-centric. As someone from Southeast Asia, the theatre kids were often the most popular students in school because, honestly, who has the balls to go on stage to sing and perform in front of hundreds of people?
It's definitely (the show) something not to be taken as representative and in any form of serious discourse, because watching the athletes and cheerleaders be popular in the show was always funny for me considering, in my high school, we hardly care about our varsity teams winning competitions (a big portion of this is probably because it wasn't made mandatory to show up in inter-school games).
American schools aren’t like this in real life it’s never looked at as bad to be in a school play only on TV
"I AM LIKE TINKERBELL, FINN. . .I NEED APPLAUSE TO LIVE" looooool I swear, that was the most self aware thing Rachel ever said.
The fact is though theatre (and acting in gneeral) is elitist. Singing lessons and dancing lessons aren't cheap.neither is drama school. Neither is having to depend on mammy and daddy to cover your rent when you haven't worked in months. Watch an awards show and see how many actors of working class backgrounds win an award guarantee they'll be in the minority. And I say all that as someone who adores musical theatre.
This hits hard. I'm Latina and grew up very very poor. I worked my ass off to afford college (and still owe money anyway) but it's been hard. I'm a designer/technician, and I do theatrical scenic design, painting, and carpentry, and there's no way right now I could support myself trying to chase that full time (and tech isn't nearly as cutthroat as acting). I'm working retail trying to find opportunities but they're scarce since I don't live in a big city. At best, I'm trying to find things even marginally related to start my career. I'm looking to carpentry work I can do, bc I truly love it in a theatre setting or not, but being a young, small woman in the business creates its own barriers. There are just so many variables. Even with drive and motivation it's completely discouraging. I'm trying to not give up, but it's impossible for me to imagine being able to ever support myself solely through the arts, not even by taking on multiple projects/side hustles at a time. This shit can really destroy you physically (depending on your area of speciality) but especially mentally.
100% spot on. I’m a singer, actress, dancer and I cannot afford to pursue it 100% without a support system. So now I’m a stripper saving up my money, so I can take a break eventually to focus on auditions. I wish I could have been a trained prima ballerina but poor kids can’t afford training in the arts
As a Brit this is especially true in our film and theatre industries. Very very classist unfortunately.
Lots of actors live in the city I live in and I see them walking around when they are inbetween roles.
That's why there are schools like the one in Fame for talented but working class children.
Honestly, Sharpay is kinda groundbreaking for portraying the theatre geek as the most popular person at school, and shes more leaning towards the queen bee troupe then the theatre kid troupe. And in Sharpay’s defense, most of her “mean” actions aren’t really driven by theatre or preserving her status, but her obsession with Troy.
Her obsession with him was kind of unsettling to me, tbh. I’m pretty sure she stalked him in HSM2
Was she the most popular tho? I love her I really do but she was pretty and rich, socially she mightve been famous for being this theatre star but Troy was the popular one
I don't think Sharpay was popular in school. In the first film a jock makes of fun of how she always looks at herself in the mirror
My niece is a theater kid and she absolutely had one of these girls in her group. She left the group and joined one with a much more inclusive attitude and is much happier.
Maybe she is toxic. But she’s an accurate representation of a lot of theater kids I met when I was in high school
As someone who was in tech I can attest to this
tbh I'll say this is also how girls in ballet acted and we were pretty much encouraged to act like this. in various dance classes as well.
I mean Lea is a theater kid and she literally is Rachel.
I don't think that people now are able to understand the art of sarcastic and sardonic writing and the brilliance of the actors that have to pull it off. If All in the Family or The Jeffersons or Maude or The Smothers Brothers or Laugh-In, etc. were made now, they would be cancelled in a week. That would be a sad loss of great writing, acting and viewing.
@@rinmartell2678 When the lines of art and real life blur more than ever before
I swear Rachel having a ballad every single episode is annoying, sometimes it pays off (such as the deal with her mom, or you know about Finn) and sometimes is just ridiculous as she sining a song about how sad and miserable she is because Finn got mad at her.
And the fact she got mad at him sleeping with Santana, when they weren't even together, she was jesse and he was single
TRULY SHE IS THE WORST FOR VICTIM MENTALITY ITS SO ANNOYING
I disliked how the show try to focus so much on her. When I DVRed it I wanted to fast forward through her parts. I liked everyone else's stories, but hers. She was boring and annoying.
@@bloodmooncomics2249 she was the female lead you should have stopped at the pilot then.
I'd rather listen to her than more than half of the cast LMAO
Something I learned as an adult is that theatre becomes toxic when you approach it like a competition instead of a passion and as soon as I stopped persuing it as a career and just enjoyed it as a hobby I actually had so much more fun with it.
If you're going to do a Squid Game video (and you definitely are), you should do one about artificial fairness in death games. The creators keeps banging the drum about how the game is meant to be fair for all players, but it's clear that things are incredible unfair, and it's meant to be that way.
“And you definitely are” 😂😂😂😂
Care to elaborate how the games were incredibly unfair?
@@gregvs.theworld451 Since I don't want to spoil anything for people who haven't seen the show, no.
@@gregvs.theworld451 -I’ll say how. Spoilers below:
They act like anyone can win the games, but Game #5 makes it virtually impossible for anyone at the beginning to hop across the glass bridge successfully. Game #2 also includes much, much harder shapes than a triangle
@@cthulhutheendless1587 I got especially mad at how they organised game 5 like the lights? The end which robbed number 67? But the since the rich are behind it we couldn’t expect honest fairness
I dont think Glee can be used as a serious subject for discourse and discussion based on its absurdity. You're making a point that rachel is a stereotypical theatre kid, but rachel is just a badly written character based off the writers hatred/love for the actress playing her, depending on the day and who was writing. Nothing is fixed in Glee, its moot.
Rachel falls into the "Rory Gilmore/Ted Moseby" syndrome where the charecter is otherwise insufferable but Shows Creator love their creation and still see them as the relatable everyman/woman and they kind of try to rationalize their bad actions/traits as not bad. I guess it's just even more muddied with people now because of Lea Michelle's offscreen reputation
Almost none of the shows/movie and tropes that this channel discussed can be qualified as a serious subject for discourse. They are mainly escapist media, Glee is no different.
@@Account.for.Comment this is a boring and pretentious take 💀 people feel all media works and doesn’t work for different reasons no matter just because you consider a pice of media to be “escapist” doesn’t mean it doesn’t have tropes and themes good or bad that can be discussed and analyzed
@@ambiguouslybrown5951 I agree
@@ambiguouslybrown5951 How about an extra explamation? If Glee should not be discussed because because the writing and characterization is inconsistent and the theme changed from episode to episode then it was true for the majority of American television format, which the majority of this channel covered. Second, going by the late Roger Ebert rule, when you watched Shaolin Soccer, you discussed its merit to other comedy and when you watch an arthouse, you don' t compare them to a tentpole blockbuster. The values they aimed for do not matched. Glee matched the others. Third, by saying escapist media, I'm not denigrating the media in itself, but the expectation its creators want from their audience. Humonculous the manga is a cynical character study about identity and ethics, Humonculous the Netflix Adaptation is a supernatural romance. One is definitely a much more serious subject.
Wait - *GLEE* made the Theatre Kid trope toxic? Spoken like people who were never in show choir…
I didn’t need TV to tell me theater kids are toxic; four years of chorus, band, and school musicals taught me plenty.
It popularized it
Omg Band kids are abusive ASF !
that's ... exactly the point. glee made the trope toxic to the masses who weren't in theater.
I used to be in a few different choirs and especially high school chamber choir was like weirdly political??? Cutthroat for no damn reason lol
I was in theater for years, but I was never in "that" group, and even when I got more responsibilities/praise whatever, I still felt like the outcast within the theater crowd. Yeah... it was really intimidating, but I guess they don't call it DRAMA for no reason!
Do you know what kind of story I would love to see with the theater kid? A theater kid whose goal is NOT to be the lead role. Think about it. They love performing, they love singing and dancing BUT HATE being the center of attention, therefore, they feel more comfortable working with a group rather than in the spotlight by themselves.
Like Thayne Jasperson from Hamilton (fun facts: he's briefly in HSM). He's still in the ensemble 6 years after Hamilton opened.
As a theater kid myself, I can definitely say that my main goal was never the lead role, I just wanted to be on stage. Trust me, if you're a good actor, you can shine in whatever role you get. As they say, there are no small parts, only small actors.
Yes! This would be a great one. I have read books about sports where there is a supporting character (and a few short stories where they are the lead character), with the most prominent in film probably being Aubrey Montague in _Chariots of Fire,_ who realizes that he/she will never be the star or a champion, but wants to be a part of the world. Since most of us will end up away from the spotlight, I think that it's good to show that story, too.
Yes! And it’s a real thing, too. I was a theater kid in the 70s (yep, youngsters, I’m a dinosaur!) in a non-school independent group. We were all misfits of one kind or another and the overriding interaction was supportive and cooperative, not competitive. The acknowledged “most talented” in the group (who happened to be my best friend!) was one of the best, kindest people I’ve ever known, not a diva at all. And a number of us-myself included-were exactly as you describe here: decently talented/capable, but not really interested in the center spotlight. Hell, much as I liked performing, I was a writer first, and eventually wrote a bunch of original material for the group, which I found way more thrilling.
In any case, that group, those experiences, the dedication of our director, all contributed to giving me the courage to flee my abusive home when I was 15. Probably saved my life. And was among the most fun I’ve ever had.
Oh, yeah: my older daughter was a theater kid as a teenager, too. Wildly talented, to the point that we were encouraged to get her head shots and take her to auditions, that kind of thing. Her directors fully expected her to become a successful professional. She decided not, and is a farmer. Not everyone schemes for the top spot!
@@literaterose6731 Very interesting journey in the theater world. I did some plays as a kid in the late 80s and early 90s, but being a teenager with a baritone voice and too short and skinny to play adults pretty much ended that. What you said about writing reminded me about something I read that the members of Monty Python didn't really have too many fights about star turns because they saw themselves as writers first and foremost. Even for _The Holy Grail,_ Graham Chapman ended up taking the lead in part because nobody else wanted it and found the side characters more fun to play.
Truthfully, glee was never a good show for representation of outcasts and minorities. It tried so hard to make us feel that being a performer was the lowest of the low. At McKinley High School it is worse to be in the glee-club than it is being science geek or a player for the unsuccessful sports teams. That is already pretty ridiculous to accept that everyone in the whole school target people for singing in a group environment, when no one had it out for any of the members when they were not part of the glee-club. Anyways, glee ended up feeling like Ryan Murphy's attempt to villainise the popular kids because he felt like an outsider in school - probably the same as most of the creators behind our teen-favourites. The difference for glee is just that is difficult to root for the protagonists since most of them are super annoying caricatures meant to represent one whole minority, but most characters get so little screen-time the audience isn't encouraged to care about them. When I was growing up watching the first season, I wanted more Tina because she was the goth girl and I liked the emo bands of the 00s, but they just gave up on her character and made her date the only other Asian character in the cast. It truly appears that though Murphy wanted to capture what it was like being young and needing a place to feel safe and included, but like with all of his projects, he bit off more than he could chew, and glee became a giant mess. But at least it is really fun to analyse the characters.
"You're ALL minorities, you're in the glee club" 🤢🤢
Ryan Murphy is... mediocre at best.
To be FAIR, in the late 2000s/early 2010s, there wasn't a lot of diversity in teen television (at least in Western media). Glee definitely was one of the earlier shows that helped pave the way for LGBTQ+/POC characters to be featured in a more leading capacity and to have actual story arcs. In season 1, even if they embodied stereotypes (which I think was intentional early on), characters like Kurt at least had more depth beyond just being a walking stereotype. Ofcourse, the later seasons kind of ruin development for a lot of the characters so idk what to say about that...
LoL...😁
@@shineon6584 i would argue that ryan murphy did as much damage (if not more) as he did good for representation. his shows tend to make everyone unlikeable and punch down on the people of color/lgbtq+ characters in his shows. it seems like the more involved he is in his productions the more harmful they are. he gets way too many passes for generally being an asshole on set as well from what i've heard.
I am SO glad I participated in theater at a small school. There was no hard feelings or cut throat competition around auditions, EVERYONE was required to participate in tech crew, and tech crew wasn't left in the dust. The theater kids were as far away from the Sharpays and Rachels as possible. If anything our theater kids were more like Rebecca Bunch. An intense love of theater, participation, and singing off key didn't land you in a pit of disrespect from the director or other actors
This has been my experience in theater. I didn't become involved in theater until I was in college, because the theater kids at my high school emulated Sharpay and Rachel. It wasn't like that with adults who had matured and had more experiences than my high school friends. I just got done with A Midsummer Night's Dream and the whole cast and crew supported each other instead of backstabbing each other. Cruel jokes and bad behavior, if it happened, was handled with care and maturity.
As a black girl who grew up watching Glee and has rewatch the series multiple times, I can tell you now that they barely handled important topics well. Particular Mercedes being black. At times they made her so much of a caricature of a black woman, that it made me uncomfortable even as a kid. They made her appear lazy, even though in previous episodes she worked as hard as the others. They made her mention weave and obsess over food, be loud and say slang that sounded out of place. She literally sung that terrible song. Oh Hell to the Naw or whatever. So no, Glee failed miserable at attempting to discuss race. They made Kurt a caricature at times which is odd seeing as the show was created by a gay man. I hated how instead of evolving a lot of the characters, they pushed them to the back for it to become the Rachel Berry show. That was Glee's ultimate downfall. Revolving everything around Rachel. If they would have gave everyone an equal amount of screen time, story involvement, and overall character development then this show would be twice as iconic. The only reason it is big is because most of the fans of the show if not all understood what is was like to be outcast or underdogs. We tried to see ourselves through the characters because what other show had people who looked like regular people on tv going through what some of us had been through in terms of the hell that is high school. They did it while singing. It was fun but it was also hurtful in a lot of areas. I was happy to see a bigger black girl like me at the time. But i hated how they treated her characters and other minorities.
Yeah I agree. They should have made Kurt and Mercedes less stereotypical caricatures but people with real storylines so that we could become more attached to the characters. The only one Kurt had that I liked was the harassment and bullying he experiences that led to his transfer. It felt a lot more real. But I really wish they had done more for Mercedes and not have her storylines be superficial and last only 2 episodes.
Honestly, I also don’t think they handled Rachel’s character well. I like characters with flaws and season 1 Rachel had flaws but also a lot of heart and vulnerability. First season was pretty good with the adoption storyline but after yikes… They revolved her entire character around Finn for three good seasons instead of letting her grow as a person, grow out of the high school boyfriend, maybe face the fact that she obsesses over certain things in her life to ignore the harassment she receives at school, the fact that her dads are never home and that she’s just been abandoned by her mother.
There was a lot to work with Rachel’s character in comparison to Mercedes who we basically never saw her life outside of school but the writers failed both characters.
The biggest crime glee committed was making Kurt Rachel’s best friend rather than Mercedes’ like he should’ve been
Completely agree…but also it makes sense they became best friends as well bc they both love Broadway. So you can get behind it with their shared love they bond over. Where as Mercedes wanted a different life path?
He was, in the earlier seasons. It wasn't until season 4 when it was all Rachel. Many fans, like myself, pointed this out.
Agreed. Kurt and Mercedes were presented early on as the show's true besties -- along maybe with Santana and Brittanny, but these two had something else going on lmao. I was fine with Kurt and Rachel tentatively getting closer because of their shared interests. BUt as the seasons went on it was like all of Kurt's relationships were dropped -- except for Klaine -- just to focus on his friendship with Rachel. During and after Season 4, Kurt just became Rachel's gay best friend and nothing more. He was and still is my favourite character, and all his individuality and personality were removed for him to become the gay BFF who sometimes has relationship drama with his BF.
@@pixiebells
Him and Rachel started becoming friends in like season 2
BASED AS FUCK
People seem to forget that Glee was and always has been a satire, first and foremost. It and HSM didn't create the annoying theatre kid trope, it only embodied and exaggerated the trope so it could make their characters more interesting and flawed: Rachel's egotistical and entitled attitude is meant to be entertaining, not taken seriously, and I'm 100% sure if she was originally nice and friendly, ppl would've complained that she's too boring instead-
OK, I understand your point, but I have a problem with the lack of character development and lack of accountability. The show tried it in some episode and then abandoned it. I am talking about all characters.
I also understand your point. It's just when Rachel does the same mistake over and over again, it stops being funny. If her being egotistical and overly dramatic was entertaining in the first season, from the second it went downhill.
And honestly, when you watch a TV show with many episodes and duration approximately 40 minutes, with a plot that does explore characters' personal lives, it impossible to not take some of it seriously, even if all of it was meant as a satire.
Always surprises me how many people took anything from Glee seriously considering the whole thing was so obviously a satire hmm
@@OhMyStellar satire that doesn't make at least one meaningful point isn't satire.
the show takes itself seriously and clearly wants the audience to take it seriously in a lot of the parts. it's not good writing when the audience can't even tell which parts to take seriously
The only thing more toxic than the “theater kid trope” is the entertainment industry, and the way we love to both worship and hate performers and artists. As you state in the video, almost no one makes a living as a performer, and yet the people who do are some of the richest and most influential people in society. What are young people supposed to think when they see that? Either they have an overinflated sense of their own talent and self-worth, or they give up without really trying, because everyone in their life is telling them that it’s too hard and they aren’t good enough to make it. Becoming obsessed with the craft and doing unethical things are understandable reactions to being constantly told that their goals are almost impossible to achieve. People who get some power in the industry exploit the people bellow them, because it’s so easy to replace performers who won’t go along, and because one good word or introduction can mean the difference between success and failure. Performers are conditioned to tolerate abuse. This is a result of the extreme imbalance of power, not bad apples, and you see it in professional sports too (especially in sports associated with women, like gymnastics). Some people may see Rachel as a villain, but I think the show encourages us to sympathize with her as well, even when she behaves badly. Yes, we accept her bad behavior more because she is talented. It’s not exactly fair, but it does emphasize that even the most talented performers are driven to such extremes in order to succeed. There is tragedy in that, more so than there would be with someone who wasn’t actually a good performer. Rachel is both victim and abuser in the show. It’s exaggerated, but not necessarily inaccurate. The kids who don’t intend to go into show business don’t have the same attitude towards it, and that also makes sense.
Additionally, I think this video ignores how gendered this stereotype is. "Jocks" are often portrayed as status/praise-obsessed jerks and villains too, but few people have a problem with this portrayal because we accept that it's more natural/acceptable for men to be overly ambitious and aggressive. We are much more uncomfortable with women (and "effeminate" men) who take up too much space/attention/praise in the world. Female entertainers are historically associated with prostitution and acting as mistresses to powerful men. Their role was to be half artist, half sex object. In one sense they were glamorous and desirable-the embodiment of female allure-and in another they were ridiculed and reviled. The legacy of these attitudes endures and drives some of the love/hate relationship the public has with entertainers. The young women in these shows see actresses as embodiments of female beauty, power, and appeal. Top performers are showered with adoration and praise, but also deeply resented for the pressures and insecurities they invoke in others. You can see this as a sort of toxic femininity, where you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t, and that battle initially plays out between Quinn and Rachel over Finn’s attention. The show could definitely be more nuanced, but I don’t think that it particularly demonizes Rachel or people who love theater.
As a Theater Kid, I was super excited about Glee, and wanted to be like Rachel. I soon realized that I was more of a Mercedes or even Tina. I realized that my rival was the true Rachel, and that I couldn’t win against her.
Agreed, I always wondered why they didn't use them more, especially Tina, and they got pushed to the side , despite being just as talented as her.
That's sad, I hope your rival didn't send you to a crack house.
@@j.albuquerque9274 ….fortunately no. She may have been my rival, but I wasn’t really hers. She didn’t see me as a threat.
@@danderson8431 That's somehow sadder. But hey, you may not be working with Lin-Manuel Miranda but neither is her (I assume, or else you'd mention in your original comment).
You can't vilify people who you find intimidating or who are more talented than you it is then you. Is. By saying you are like Mercedes or Tina is saying You only realize that you're not as good as you want to be Or you're not the best. There will always be someone better
I honestly always admired Sharpay’s and Rachel’s ambition, and while I agree that their methods may not have always been the most thought out, I think that people tend to put all the blame on them for everything. No one likes when things don’t go according to plan, but of course the solution would be to remain calm and try to find a solution calmly. Of course, we are all only humans, which means we are all flawed, so mistakes are bound to happen. However, I don’t think that pummeling anyone to death, figuratively or literally, is the way to resolve such issues.
am i the only one who enjoyed rachel's character? i didn't necessarily like her all the time (lol i didn't like her most of the time) but i appreciated that she was allowed to be rude and self-centred and egotistical. she had genuine real flaws instead of like glamorous cute flaws like being quiet or clumsy. glee's biggest issue is that they never gave rachel space to grow, i don't think she should have ever gotten into nyada and then had to learn to work from there, but on the whole i enjoyed that rachel was allowed to be unlikeable. it was one of the more realistic depictions of an overzealous high school student i'd seen!
No it is just in vogue to hate on her now. It is getting really boring tbh.
@@GA-fn8hr to be fair there is valid reason to find her unlikeable but i thought she was always a really compelling realistic character
big agree! I Injoy watching rachel, flaws and all. yes she does terrible things but in the end these kind of characters make for great tv
I always found her compelling too. just like I did most of the female characters on this show because they all had real flaws and could be really mean at the drop of the hat. Not necessarily a good thing but it just made everyone interesting. Tbh, the character that I disliked was Finn (no hate to the actor rip). I disliked that he was treated like the greatest thing ever by fans and characters when I just couldn’t see it.
@@Melanie-jy2nw oh my gosh, I feel the same way. Finn was horrible. I feel very sad for what happened to Cory but his character was really bad and I couldn’t understand what talent everyone kept talking about.
Rachel Berry may have been annoying, but Glee's commitment to have all teenagers be extremely flawed and terrible sometimes still makes for a million times more interesting characters than todays protagonists who have to have a "likable personality"/are one-dimensional so audiences can consume teen shows easily. This new wave of teenagers who can't handle unlikable characters who mess up is so wild to me.
honestly!!! I was a very unlikeable and chaotic teen in many ways, as were my friends. It's normal to be kinda awful while you're still figuring life out. The erasure of this reality in media is causing literal children to expect themselves/each other to have the mental stability of a 40 year old yoga instructor.
omg i completely agree!!! despite its absolute insanity i really enjoyed that glee let its characters make mistakes and be unlikeable
the show was about how it takes teenagers/young adults a long time and making many mistakes to figure out what is important in life. Expecting fictional 18 year olds to have a perfect moral code is insane and incredibly BORING. If they're already perfect what are they supposed to learn during the show then?
"today's protagonists" which media today has predominantly likeable/one-dimensional high schoolers that isn't featured on the disney channel?
@@Prosaic0 we've definitely progressed in terms of tv currently airing, but back in 2009 when the likes of the vampire diaries and teen wolf and pretty little liars were airing, all the protagonists had flaws like "too noble" or "too loyal" or "too brave". nowadays we have room for a lot more complex characters (e.g. sex education, never have i ever) but back in 2009 rachel was kinda the only character that was allowed to make mistakes and not be painted as the villain
I admit, I like Rachel because of how narcissistic and ambitious she was. Female characters usually don't get to be bitches on anything
Yeah they don’t get to be the protagonist and the narcissistic bitch. We get Quinn’s and Santana’s who were (as of season 1) minor antagonists and bitches but nobody blinks at that. I think it was a shock to people who were so used to the Elena Gilbert archetype of protagonist. I liked how ambitious her character was and how she always knew what she wanted.
Female main characters can't catch a break; if they're too nice, they're called boring and flawless, if they're too bitchy, they're called selfish and unlikeable to root for-
@@itspienoon7883 i think this happens when the characters "unlikeable" trait isn't met with equivalent consequences.
I'm thinking of how people hate Emily from Emily in Paris, because she never seemed to any real repercussions for her behaviour. The same with Rachel
@@Melanie-jy2nw real Elena Gilbert was a bitch in the books, but tv Elena had to be more palatable to attract viewers. Another example of the Elena trope 😓🤦🏻♀️
@@mynameisuju exactly! I might have actually liked Rachel more if she faced real consequences instead of occasionally having Mr Shu snap at her. Would have liked her more if they leaned into her being a bitch instead of constantly trying to get the audience to root for her regardless of how obnoxious she was.
Rachel Berry is one of the most insufferable TV characters there have ever been.
I think she hated herself too tbh.
Preach, yet she got everything handed to her!
Has moments and charm at times, but surprised she never uses her underhanded moments against her bullies. You think a slushie to the face so many times would make her snap back
After You
but fun!
This was always something I was so jealous of, because it seemed that all American and Japanese schools had so many clubs and after-school activities. In my country, at least where I lived at the time, there was hardly anything like that, mostly just church or a few sports clubs. Everything else you could only do if your parents had enough money, because everything was super expensive.
Are you from Latinoamerica? Because it was the same for me, i always wanted to have theatre in school but sadly my school only had some acts and performance, the most "theatre" things we had was a some small plays and dances.
@@despinasgarden.4100 we didn’t have a theatre club in Australia either. We have community theatres, not school productions for the most part. There is Drama as a class you can take, and they occasionally put on a show I guess- but only the year 12 kids? I dunno, I wasn’t in Drama in year 12.
But we also don’t have school sports like America does either. It seems a lot of things revolve around their school that here, revolve around community groups. Which is unfortunate, given that a lot of parents don’t have the time or money to get their kids into after school activities. Maybe if it was all run through schools, more kids would have the opportunity to participate.
Same
@@despinasgarden.4100 nope i'm from germany :)
I think Rachel was the way she was because she was bullied her whole life and the only thing people ever complimented her for was her singing. She kind of keeps her ability to perform and her self worth in the same bottle, so that’s why she had to be so competitive. She was still shitty, but I feel for her more than I feel for other characters who always bullied her for traits that they displayed just as much as
Her
Before she was bullied, and she was bullied for her personality more than anything, her theatre loving fathers raised her as a singing dancing twirling diva. It's been stated many times on the show
@@monochromatic_melodramatic well, that’s kind of my point. People only tolerated her for her talent. Though I do think it’s hypocritical because Mercedes’, Kurt and Santana were all divas
@@winxclubfairiesrule1 I think its because they had development in a way. They weren't perfect but they had more empathy for others, even Santana in a way. Racheal had multiple times to prove that she would change/ be better but would only do the right thing as long as it wasn't to big of a sacrifice or threatening her dream. Also, i think she rubs people the wrong way since even though her diva attitude does come from her belief that she is way more talented , it also comes off as entitlement since she's a cishet white women. Mercedes, Kurt, and Santana were never divas. The show tried to paint them as divas when they were just showing they were just as talented if not more than Racheal and just wanted a chance to be in the spot light since will always favored her. Racheal actively sabatoged or threw fits if the others were rightfully allowed to be the center of attention so she seemed to be the only diva. Theres a difference between confidence and being a diva.
As of 2021, I'm 33. I was a theater kid in high school, went on to major in it in college, and am now working at it as my craft. But I always felt quite different from other theater kids because I also happen to be visually impaired and, for all of the performing arts' discussions of "diverse casting" when it comes to people of color, the LGBTQ+ community, etc., performers and creators with disabilities are still often overlooked. We're rarely included in the creative process and able-bodied actors are cast to play us because it's assumed that playing a disability is the same as any other acting transformation. It's not, and it sure as hell isn't a golden ticket for winning an Oscar or Tony. Productions today wouldn't be caught dead hiring white actors to play characters of color in black/brown face, so the fact that able-bodied writers and actors telling stories of characters with disabilities is still so common and accepted in the craft and by audiences isn't cool. Artists with disabilities exist and we're longing to work in this industry; the industry just needs to recognize, include, and accommodate us.
If anyone's curious, a current project I'm working on is a play adaptation of "The Man Who Laughs" by Victor Hugo. It's set in 18th century England and follows Gwynplaine, a young boy who is disfigured with a Glasgow smile on the orders of King James II as a punishment to Gwynplaine's rebellious nobleman father. Gwynplaine grows up knowing nothing of his aristocratic background and instead becomes a clown, working alongside a blind girl named Dea, and the two fall in love. But when Gwynplaine's past is discovered by Queen Anne's court, he's whisked away to be reinstated to his father's titles because the nobles think he'll be an easily-controllable puppet. And that's all I can say without spoiling the ending.
MY FAVORITE CHANNEL UPLOADING THE ONE THING THAT CAN RUIN MY DAY. THANK YOU [GRITTED TEETH]
Rachel should have been a side character. And I will die on that hill.
I actually LOVED Sharpay Evans!
I mean, i hated her when i was a kid, but now as an adult i realise that Gabriella ain't shit 💁
I love Sharpay too, always have,, but there's nothing wrong with Gabriella. Considering her dad was out of the picture, she was moving schools frequently and it's implied she was bullied before, its no wonder she had some trust issues. Sharpay is iconic but she did some shitty things
It's OK to love Sharpay. But what I don't like is people acting like Sharpay was actually good. She wasn't. She was a jealous brat.
Gabriella was good wtf, she was shy, but she liked to sing even if it wasn't her priority, she was kind and nice even to those bad people who treated her really bad (cough Sharpay cough) plus she actually was pretty talented. Sharpay is iconic and funny, but she was a shitty person every movie until she had her own movie and finally showed her character development.
I like sharpay as the villain that she is. Why do people now have to justify her actions to like her? Gabriella was a hard working genius latina woman, with a single mother, who was able to be in decathlon, yearbook, musical theater and still managed to have a loving relationship with troy. She got into Stanford early admissions!
But sharpay is the hardworking one apparently?
I love HSM. I love Sharpay’s talent, style and work ethic, but she’s mean, manipulative, entitled, selfish and materialistic. Also it really aggravates me that people exaggerate Gabriella and make her seem less likable than she actually is. Sure, she’s a bit of a Mary Sue, but she’s also sweet and caring. Gabriella is actually very overhated- she’s just as overhated as Tori Vega and Ally Dawson.
Hollywood hates anyone who is an expert at their craft. Have you been spending a good chunk of your time practicing and learning the skills needed to succeed at whatever? Well if this is a movie you’re screwed. Be prepared to lose to someone who just figured out they can do what you always wanted. If you bring this up. Congratulations you’re the villain.
Well put
Thank you, basically came here to say this.
Also pretty much every person in Glee is deeply flawed, in very extreme ways... That's kind of the point...
To show that even though they are all humans under that extreme persona...
And the show actually pulls no punches in showing how annoying/toxic Rachel actually is...
like santana and kurt
@@comparsa1 exactly... Like there's not a person on that series that hasn't done some trully weird/awful things...
And judging from the fact that it started as satire, it doesn't surprise me...
This reminds me of Shannen Doherty’s “bad girl” rep in the 90’s. The public comparing her character to her real persona.
If you are talking about Shannon Doherty, she was problematic indeed.
@@estephanymatos8192 😖 Uh…. I literally spelled her NAME in my comment, so what do you mean “IF you’re talking about Shannen?” Obviously… I was referring to her.
Yup
Rachel being insufferable but talented and driven could've made her a good character if she wasn't constantly rewarded. She never experiences true consequences no matter how awful she is
I am surprised Tina only made a small appearance which is a huge symbol of her character.
Tina also became an insufferable diva as the seasons progresses because like Rachel, the writers did not know what to do with her. She was mean and shallow and lost a huge portion of her identity.
I get advocating for yourself, but they wrote her character to be nothing like who she was, in my opinion.
I loved being a theatre kid! I never really embraced it being uncool or for outcasts, I always saw it as fabulous and it was genuinely my life focus. I appreciate media that shows theatre as a legitimate pursuit to be super excited about and to feel proud of.
I always get annoyed when people say she is the most talented in glee. Mercedes, Blaine and Santana were just as talented if not more.
ESPECIALLY Mercedes
The very worst thing about Glee in my opinion? The shallow, performative attempts at diversity. It would've been one thing for the show to market itself as your average teen highschool drama with singing, but the show went out of its way to show off its "diverse" cast, which included the super stereotypical catty gay guy, the weird Asian goth girl who barely ever got any screen time, the African-American diva who was always pushed aside for the white girl, the guy in a wheelchair played by an able-bodied dancer, and oh yeah our two super-talented white hetero leads.
It was a much different time. Back then it actually wasn't expected for every single show to have a gay/bi character in it, and the ones that did they were usually minor characters, or were killed off, or got boy/girlfriends that were barely ever on screen and who they weren't allowed to be affectionate with beyond holding hands and a quick, light peck on the lips, etc.
It's been just over a decade since Glee began, but the climate and culture that exists today and the one that existed back then were *radically* different.
@@jaernihiltheus7817 I have to agree. Watching it now, I can recognise the numerous issues that it has and how truly awful some of their attempts at inclusion are, but when I was 13 years old, I had never seen anything with a cast this diverse, I had never seen even one gay couple or gay character in a show before and at that age I was made to think that 'being gay is fine, but just be glad you're not gay' which is not a mindset I have at all now and that is largely due to glee. Despite the many failures of glee it was an incredibly diverse show considering the time it came out. Many LGBTQ+ characters, including a gay couple that brought up a child, rachel herself is jewish, black, latino and asian characters, multiple characters with down-syndrome, a disabled character, different body types are represented, mental illness is shown - such as Marley's ED and most notably -Emma's OCD. Ryder also has dyslexia. It was definitely not perfect, but it was still something. Ten years is a long time ago, a LOT has changed, and glee definitely played a part - even if its got issues
I should point out that Kathy, said those things to Don at the beginning because he was trying to gain sympathy from her for his “lonely Hollywood lifestyle” as he put his arm around her. She didn’t want to feed his ego.
Exactly
Strange, the theater kids at my HS were lovely. We had odd traditions like girls' parties where we decorated clothes that the boys crashed (in costume and character). It was the best part of being HS. Our CATS had 99 kids in it between the cast, crew, costume/makeup, and orchestra. People did it because they loved being creative and part of the community.
"Rachel Berry may be New Direction's most talented-"
*Mercedes Jones has entered the chat.*
Literally i was about to comment that adsgajdgsgd like in what universe was Rachel the most talented when Mercedes and Kurt were right there
kurt is an awful singer and mercedes is amazing but rachel’s voice is much more fit for musical theater
@@imsadlol4528 damn homophobia in this day and age 😔😔
Jokes aside though, you can dislike his voice but saying he was an awful singer is objectively wrong. His technique is great, his voice is healthy and he makes great use of it. As a vocal coach, really the only criticism I have is that he tends to add a silent "h" in front of vowels sometimes.
His singing is great, some people just can't handle the idea of a guy with a high voice 🕺✨
(by the way, Rachel's singing was also technically good, it's only towards the later seasons when she starts to slip up and kind off shred her vocal chords. But still nowhere near Mercedes level of good)
@@fruitysoupy babe he sounds like a whiny middle schooler 💀💀
@stay mad ahdhfh this was so long ago I can't even remember what was said
I wasn't allowed into the theatre clique. They had a core group in my high school who were pre-cast in any role they wanted in the season. I have no idea how I ever could have broken in. Nearly all had extensive professional theatre experience. There was little room for anyone who didn't have that resume or who wasn't one of the choir favorites.
"Glee gives all these characters depth"
Not the Asians. Please explain Tina and Mike
Smash may have intended to make Karen the “relatable” protagonist, but me and all my other theatre kid friends were rooting hard for Ivy.
Agreed
I truly felt emotional sympathy for Ivy particularly during her painful loss in the final episode of Smash season 1. It genuinely appeared that she was going to commit suicide because she lost the most important lead role of her life to Karen and she will never achieve her dreams of stardom anymore. It was genuinely devastating.
The thumbnail is god-tier. I'm going to cry 🤣🤣🤣
ok but i feel robbed that yall didnt leave in santana yelling ALRIGHT LET ME AT HER
Rachel can be really annoying, but I do really like her.
Her character is really hard to have an opinion on because there's so much good mixed with bad. She's also the most realistic character from Glee IMO. Yes, she can be bratty and selfish, but she also has great qualities. It's so refreshing to have a protagonist who is actually nuanced instead of just being badass and perfect. I myself actually like Rachel Berry, as I think she's similar to Devi from NHIE. They're both talented hotheads, who want to fit in, but can be very rude or selfish about. I think it's more important to talk about why Rachel was feeling so much pressure, instead of blaming her for something that was pushed on her. I really see a lot of myself in Rachel. The insane pressure, the feeling that no one understands, the constant need to be the best. And I really appreciate how Glee portrayed that. If you hate Rachel, I understand. She's hard to like and can be toxic at times. But keep in mind that at the end of the day, Rachel is a human being. She makes mistakes, and it's important to note that Rachel has her own insecurities and troubles. It's no excuse for her actions but we should at least understand her character before judging her so quickly. Just my take.
THIS! YES! EXACTLY! I was always told I have a perfect voice, perfect pitch! Then in 10th grade my mom made me go into voice lessons and I realized just how much I was wrong about. I wasn't breathing correctly when singing, I'm apparently a soprano when I thought I was an alto. The lines on the staff are actual letters not just do mi re ect. It took me 5 entire lessons to even start to learn how to breathe correctly. And on top of that I heard other people in the voice lesson room singing before my lessons and they were SO MUCH BETTER! If you're told you're the best and that there's no way you could possibly be any better, and then you suddenly learn you ARE pretty good but still have a LONG way to go, It will give you SUCH an identity crisis.
Oh my gosh I love never have I ever. And Devi is a great example of an unlikeable but sympathetic protag. Maybe why I had a soft spot for Rachel too. But most people say that while Devi actively gets called out and faces consequences for her action Rachel doesn’t. Like with Rachel she gets bullied by Santana and Quinn but no one wants to take the side of mean girls. Meanwhile Devi gets called out by her friends, family, and therapist all the time. Not in a degrading way but in a way where they know she can do better
this girl is the actual reason why i don't like Glee. I always felt a bad vibe everytime she was on screen
I feel you
Glee is an excellent excercise in empathy. Can you understand that teens make mistakes while they are figuring out who they are? Can you give kids, even when they are annoying, the space they need to try themselves out and find their strenght through performing?
I can have empathy for these kids, but not those who take it too far. Harassing, bullying, sabotaging, and destroying others for their own ambition. They’ll continue to abuse others’ grace, empathy, and understanding unless confronted or checked eventually, if ever.
True but kids also need to face reality and consinquences sometimes. So they can learn how they want to be not be given free reign and forgiveness for everything.
Ryan Murphy's problem is he has empathy but only for toxic characters or villains. Those characters don't deserve empathy they deserve punishment for their actions that have a lasting effect.
@@NA86737 kids being too unexperinced to fully understand the impact of their actions and making mistakes are not villans. they are constantly punished in the show, which is their fault, but saying they don't deserve empathy or the chance for growth is wild.
this
I love Rachel Berry. Yes, she was awful, but so was every other character in Glee, at least the entertaining ones. However, she was always blunt about her ambition and talent, and that felt refreshing in a way.
Theater kids are the best when they are only in it for the fun of it. It become s toxic when cliques and bullies become involved. There should not ever be underdogs, gatekeepers, or elitists.
As a former theatre kid that acted in high school and now has a degree in scenic design/scenic painting...I've been waiting for this video my whole life lol drag herrr
Even though Rachel was annoying and a bad person, I thought her personality was kind of refreshing at first (not in the later season bc there is no character arc) bc she was not the stereotypical naive and good girl that main female characters are always portrayed as. She was selfish and competitive, which is total realistic if you want to be a successful person.
I mean, let's be honest, kindness and good intentions don't take you anywhere in the real life, and most of the times the main protagonists portrayed in the media resolve their problems with kindness and love or whatever, like it's not very realistic.
So, I thought Rachel's character was a realistic portrayed on how some people in real life truly are.
Hate me but i used to love her. My favorite character on the show tbh
As someone who danced ballet when I was a kid, I was also so baffled by the cattiness of performing arts kids in media, as my studio was always such as supporting environment. But then, my studio didn't engage in competitions and the woman who owned it, who was a terrifying person who could have put the fear of God into Rachel Berry with a smile on her face, was very careful to make sure that every student had the necessary foundation rather than advancing kids to be on pointe as soon as possible.
honestly, if i were a passionate and seasoned theatre kid and some inexperienced people who auditioned on a whim took my lead role i would be upset too lmaooo (edit: also team ivy lynn)
Okay but the actual theatre kids back in high school were SUPER clique-y and pretty full of themselves lol. Idk if other schools had theatre departments that were actually welcoming but mine was not
Gosh, I have this experience right now. My old theatre group was so welcoming, friendly, and fun, and the one I’m in now is so exclusive that you have to do so much for so little. It’s exhausting
Yeah
One thing that this misses out on is that Sharpay and Ryan are so utterly campy and fun, I remember more their over the top antics than Gabriella and Troy. Rachel on the other hand was frustrating then and has only aged worse.
rachel and sharpay are more of what i call soprano trope. the soprano who thinks they're better than everyone just because they're a soprano
As a contralto I wholeheartedly agree
Soprano as in the singing type not the show soprano?🤔
I am sadly very familiar with those types of people.
@@PaolaRodriguezCalvimontes Funny when you think about it because soprano is the most common female singing voice.
When I was little I did musicals (not professional) for 10 years. There was ALWAYS someone (most of the time a girl) who would throw everyone under the bus to get the biggest part. And most of the time they were arrogant as well.
I feel like what makes Sharpay and Rachel different is that Sharpay realised you can't just be good, you have to really work and really love it. Rachel clearly expected to get whatever she wanted just because she was good, and didn't care that other people were just as good. Meanwhile, Sharpay adored what she did and worked hard for it, only to be upstaged by two people who saw the theatre as an excuse to flirt with each other and showed no real passion. Rachel loved the fame, Sharpay loves the theatre
I was so excited when glee first came out being a bit of a theatre kid, but holy crap we grew to hate this show
I get the whole cast of stereotypes at the start but they really should have written that out and shown depth and made effort with the characters. And when they did the continuity would be forgotten for convenience and drama.
They all have huge flaws but honestly some of the things they do cross a line at 'oh their young they make mistakes', and 'oh theyre only mean because of this sad backstory' yeah no. All the characters are pretty awful with Rachel berry being top of the list yet we're supposed to root for her and empathize with her?
It’s actually important to show that just because you’re the theater kid, that doesn’t mean you aren’t the asshole. Wanting fame isn’t noble. I like to use The Muppet Movie as a good example. Kermit wants to “make people happy”. That is a noble goal. He thinks about giving something, not getting something.
Well, I wouldn't say the audience is coaxed into rooting and feeling for Rachel. She's the main character or the one who receives the most screentime and showtime out of all the Glee club members. However, the show has much more interesting and beloved character than her such as Santana and Mercedes, who hold their own very toughly and solidly in front of Rachel's belting soprano notes (and knowing I'm a sucker for soprano, it actually tells you the strong impression these two ladies have left upon me).
Santana is a bad person; he is worse than Rachel; She does not grow up, she does not mature, she is a xenophobic racist and not because she is a Latina or a lesbian should give her a free pace, the same Kurt
@Life Is A Musical Santana is unbearable in every appearance, same Punk
Honestly glad to hear a nuanced take about The Theater Kid, there's so much hardwork and academia that go unnoticed and unacknowledged.
You can’t cry over an unkind word…work hard; prove them wrong. Great advice that no one cares about.
As a performer, I can confidently say, if you find you are taking yourself too seriously...watch "Waiting for Guffman". Actually...everyone should just watch "Waiting for Guffman." Period.
Debbie Reynolds as Cathy, doesn't actually look down on Don Lockwood. She's putting on airs because the dude just dropped into her car, and is starting to hit on her, and he's acting big headed. She's puffing herself up and trying to not feel inferior.
If you're in theatre, educational or professional, it's so important to have friends and interests outside of theatre to stay grounded, take a break, and avoid burnout. It's especially good advice to date outside of your craft as well. It can work, but it's easy to have a contentious and competitive/unhealthy relationship if you're a theatre professional dating another theatre professional. Speaking from experience, it's important to compartmentalize, try to avoid taking your work home with you as much as possible, create boundaries, and surround yourself with other people with different qualities, jobs, and perspectives. It's healthy and can even help you improve your craft.
One thing I'd wish would go away is the "Practice every day" singer being passed over for "I kinda sing in the shower" ingenue. Make it realistic. Have the "ingenue" actor not practice for the audition number, and then put them up against the one who has been. Show how badly they'd actually do against somebody who is in top form vs their poor one. Use that as the starting point "Wow, I failed. I'm not as special as I thought" from the rando off the street would make a GREAT twist on all these stories.
I went to high school with a girl like that. she had had voice lessons from the time he was little all the way through high school and she thought that it meant she could boss around anybody at all in the choir and was really bratty besides. of course she was picked for every solo and was always the lead in the play both spring and fall .
Here is the issue with the theatre kid trope from an ex- theatre kid (who still enjoys theatre from a far) the people who grew up with this show a lot of them feel a connection to Rachel and her behavior down to a T. I've known many a people who crave and demand it. I also feel like setting the show in a Glee Club doesn't work with her overall character. If it had been a drama club it be a different story. Rachel just doesn't grow as a character and the fact that they felt the need to say over and over again how much the character was based on Lea just doesn't help the character or show age well at all.
I got to deal with people who only like contemporary musical theatre, people who felt that Phantom and Les Mis were liking the "classics" (which I mean I guess), the is anyone going to come out of the closet already part of things, the "oh great the two straight guys are getting all the lead roles because they can pass," the kids whose family would buy two rows worth of tickets to ensure they be in every single show, stage parents, directors who get upset because you can't sell tickets to Man of La Mancha in the same way that you could Annie not that high schoolers should be putting on Annie (and we did), really creepy alum that are a decade older that are "best friends" with everyone, the male teacher who hits on the teenage girls blatantly and they are married with children, getting blamed because you didn't get a part in the show (that was a thing), drug addict dance teachers with stoner sons, the girl with 50 personalities that claims she is the best at everything but can't really do anything, directors who break you down mentally so they know how to get emotions from you and basically own your emotions at 14-years-old...
Fun world.
Nothing is being “re-defined” or changed. Everything simply cycles. 10 or 20 years from now, there will be another character very similar to Rachel Berry. The reason it’s not happening now is because Glee Is not far enough in the rearview mirror for the TV and movie producers to think they can repeat the trope and sell it.
If any of you are into pro wrestling. Adrian English from the WWE is now doing a theater kid gimmick in Impact Wrestling and NJPW Strong as The Drama King. His theater kid energy is on point and he's a vastly underrated wrestler.
I did not expect this to be in the comments, but I'm glad it's here - and on Rusev Day, no less. 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I am a simple woman. I hear Adrian English; I come running. That precious pasty bastard just became greater.
Very surprised that Centre Stage was not mentioned.
As a “theatre kid” and now as a Professional
running my own community theatre company, I wish that there would be more shows that look at all the time, dedication, hard work, energy etc. that it takes to even attempt this profession or even to be involved in a show.
This is a Passion for many just like any other passion.
A few years ago there was an experiment on a morning show where a bunch of professional athletes spent one day in rehearsals for a Broadway show. They couldn’t make it through the day! The athleticism of these performers is awe inspiring. Yes “being on Broadway” is aspirational. Of course it is. But people should be allowed to pursue their dreams as long as it’s not to the detriment of others (looking at you Rachel Berry).
As a theatre kid who has grinded for years to become someone who is powerful, kind, who has a good worth ethic etc. I wished that the industries that we worked for honored us as much as we honored it at times.
the take really popped off with that thumbnail
I’ve worked in a lot of schools and each has its own culture. One school was all about the basketball team and winning the championship. The other had the theatre kids and their musical. Etc. I think the social hierarchy depends on what the majority of the school values and where they shine
Not every theater kid is like Rachel Berry, but every theater kid knows somebody who is
And if you don’t know that person…it’s probably YOU who is the Rachel Berry in your life….
Lea was the inspiration for Rachel’s diva side, which isn’t much of a shock what happened last year.
I feel personally attacked by this video lmao
I always find these takes funny because Rachel Berry was my favorite Glee character, Sharpay was my favorite HSM character, etc. Yeah, they're both a little annoying, but that's part of the humor and fun. I personally like having imperfect, assertive, talented female characters. And in the case of Glee, Rachel was the glue that held that whole club together tbh.
I love Sharpay, she was always my favourite. But, I have a real issue with people trying to claim her as the 'true victim' when she's not. she's an iconic and enjoyable antagonist, we should appreciate that.
As for Rachel, I think I would enjoy her more if characters like Mercedes and Tina didn't keep getting shoved to the side.
🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
Yeah, Rachel really put in the most effort in the club and I appreciate that. It’s probably why I liked her so much but I wish Mercedes and Tina were given more opportunities to shine.
@@gleewhoseline198 I think a lot of hatred towards Rachel comes from the writers of the show sidelining other characters, when obviously that's not actually a characteristic Rachel can control (though I hate it too). I don't think I'd call Sharpay the victim either, but Iove her as a character
@@Melanie-jy2nw Agreed. Especially Mercedes, she should've had better storylines tbh.
Rachel could've been such a powerful character if they kept some humanity in her.
She had no remorse or consequences for anything she did.
For example, when she openly admitted that Mercedes did better than her in the West Side Story audition. You can even see some vulnerability when they gave her the role out of pity but all of that was lost when she just went back to her petty self the next episode. They don't give you a chance to feel bad for her because she gets everything she wants.
I never felt bad for the "superstar" Rachel Berry but I did feel for the awkward Rachel that got bullied. But then again, they didn't give you much to feel bad for.
Can't believe they compare full length, scripted shows to Tik Tok clips, and think the latter are better.
The way she did Sunshine and kept Mercedes singing the last high note and singing backup still makes me mad.
Rachel had nothing to do with when Mercedes sang.
@@GA-fn8hr Yeah, that was Mr Schu
@@StellarAvenger yet you put it on Rachel.
@@GA-fn8hr Not here to argue. I'm agreeing
For me, Rachel was rewarded constantly for being the worst. Not from a talent perspective, we can all hear how talented she, but from a behavioral one. And they gaslighting anyone who calls it out. She always makes it seem like she has to fight for things when they are handed to her and the one time she meets resistance to that she not only takes it personally but then is rewarded for saying i won't take that. She just never grows as a person and when that's your lead...oh boy.
And then she asked that question like it really wasn't Mercedes...i can't
surprise seeing Abigail and Emily mentioned in this but yes! Their (unofficial) Bridgerton musical album is so good, such talented girls!
I could not stand the theatre kids at school. They thought they were better than everyone else. Yet, I haven't seen anyone from my school in a tv show or film today. Worse than the theatre kids are the music kids. These kids always humming or singing quietly in classes other than music and are expecting compliments ,when you really want them to shut up.
Pretty sure that Cathy in Singing in the Rain isn't telling the truth when she says she's a theater actress. There's a deleted scene where she sings about how obsessed with Don Lockwood she really was. She loved movies. Otherwise she wouldn't have tried for and gotten the part in the musical that Don eventually finds her in. She just didn't like Don's arrogant attitude when she meets him so she takes a shot at his confidence. That's always been my reading of it anyway.
I was a theatre and choir kid all my life and the environment was pretty toxic. There was a lot of cattiness and a lot of girls like Rachel Berry. I can't say anything about university or broadway but based off of my local community theatre and schools that I attended the environment was pretty toxic and grew up being super insecure with myself because of it. Everything was a competition and no one was supportive of each other and people would try so many methods to mess with each other before the upcoming show hoping they could take the lead. I really hope no one has to go through that type of thing cause it is really painful. There is a lot of good about the theatre and choir program so I hope these types of toxic environments stop.
I was an actual theatre kid in highschool while Glee was on tv and I never actually got around to watching the show. I was too preoccupied with Supernatural and Doctor Who and actually doing theatre kid stuff like painting the sets and rehearsing shows and running lines. We were a bunch of weirdos telling stories. Was I particularly popular in school? No, not really. Did I care? Probably a little. High school was a rough time, but theatre helped me escape when I really needed one.
I am a theatre kid. I am a belter who a lot of people in my community consider to be very talented. And while I recognize the worth of others and don’t stomp on people to get my way, I know my worth and am very ambitious, with goals to be an actress and singer-songwriter and to write my own musical one day. Needless to say, this has made quite a few people not like me. Over the years I have had to deal with so many small minded, quietly sexist people calling me a know it all, bossy, a diva… all because I have a big voice, a lot of knowledge about music for a high schooler and am not afraid to speak my mind. And yes, I have had multiple people compare me to Rachel as a kind of back handed compliment.
I have never watched Glee. However, a part of me will always resent it for the way it perpetuates the stereotype that goal-oriented, passionate and stubborn young women are by nature pushy harpies who throw tantrums when they don’t get their way. Girls are always seen as more appealing when quiet. How many times in media have we seen the protagonist be a gifted young woman who is both compassionate and NOT AFRAID OF HER TALENT? When this is the case, the young woman usually likes to draw. Because drawing is quiet. Drawing does not beg for attention. Enjoying the spotlight, wanting people to see and listen to you, is seen as selfish.
I am so tired of ambitious girls being mean girls. I think it’s time we start seeing powerhouse singer heroines whose passions are given the respect they deserve. Who recognize their own talent, but also encourage the talents of others. Whose stubbornness is backed not by a shallow refusal to listen to the thoughts of others, but by confidence in their own principles.
Okay i hated rachel berry but i still love the evans twins.