And classes that use 3 ASI like Barb/Monk/Ranger/Paladin are usualy better using point buy so they can get that 15/14/14 at the cost of taking another 8.
And it's a good one, too. I've rarely NEEDED to use point buy for a build unless I need a very specific combination of stats. Standard array gives you two good stats, two alright stats, and two "bad" stats (and even one of your bads is just a flat +0). That gives you excellent storytelling opportunities - you're great at this, you suck at this, and you can give most other things the old college try.
@@bonogiamboni4830 No, what I mean is the stats that class wants. So barb wants Con/Str/Dex, Monk wants Wis/Dex/Con, Paladin wants Str/Con/Cha. Meanwhile classes like Wizard and Sorc just want Primary/Con
Davvy:"Now you know how to use point buy, you're welcome" Me: "huh, why does that sound familiar?" in the distance Jocat:"WELCOME TO A CRAP GUIDE TO DND!!!"
I had a realization during my current game when, during the 3rd session, I asked "wait, am I the only person who used point buy?" And got a resounding "yes."
@@thedisabledviking I think that most people want to have a few really good stats but with standard array you just feel decent at everything except 1 and most players like to be specialists. Also with being just decent most of the time someone can do something better than you so you aren't picked to do things often.
In 5e, the PHB for some reason provides rolled stats first, then standard array, and then point buy. Honestly, I'm fine with rolling stats if everyone's on the same playing field. What I like to do is have my players roll 4d6 drop lowest 6 times, and then arrange them all onto a spreadsheet, and let them assign or choose based on an initiative order, with the order reversing whenever it gets to the bottom. (So the people at the bottom of the current order get two picks in a row.) It can lead to a lot of high scores, but it prevents one player from having 2 18s while another player doesn't have anything above 14, while still having a bit of random / chance element. Another option is to have each player roll 4d6 once, and then you roll any extra times to get to 6 total scores, and everyone then has the same custom array.
That's so boring. Some characters are going to be better than others to start.. This allows weaker players to have their own arc for improvement and the players with the higher stats can take riskier options of play that would be bad ideas in any other situation.
@@Americanbadashh You're assuming every single game makes room for an 'arc of improvement.' It doesn't really seem like a fair approach to basically have a mandatory "get stronger" period for some players that the others are allowed to use as an experiment phase. I've had one game, a short one, where one player had no score above 14 (and 3 below 10), and one player had no score below 16 (with 3 18s). The one who got screwed over didn't have fun. The game was a one-shot so he didn't even have a chance to "get better" but even in a full campaign, unless he got a lot of DM handouts, there would not be enough increases for him to ever catch up with even a standard character.
Davvy, you realize that 5e wasn't at all the first edition to have point buy, right? 3.5, 3e, and Pathfinder (technically not an edition of D&D, but it basically is) all have point buy rules, the former two having it right in the DMG. The way you phrase things in the video gives me the impression that you're saying 5e is the first to bring in the system in, which just isn't true.
@@chukyuniqul were previous editions not balanced around a baseline of the average for rolls, or more than likely, point buy? Pretty sure that's *also* not a thing 5e did first. 4e definitely was, if 3.5 wasn't (which I'm pretty sure it was as well).
Yeah but no one knew about or needed them because there was no stat cap The whole reason point buy is a big deal is because 5e restricts your mechanical growth and doesn't mesh well with high level play
“Rolling up a character with a 20 at level 1 is like making a character who killed a dragon in their backstory” My first character was a viking barbarian who rolled a 20 in strength and killed a dragon in her backstory. She was level 1 Wew lad, daddy chappy I feel attacked. EDIT: To add to the insanity of that character, my DM gave her a luck blade at second level. I am an asshole and I made him regret that. I ended using it to make a Red Dragon eternally loyal to me. So my over-statted Bear Totem barbarian that was basically unkillable without a TPK (Anything that'd kill her would decimate the rest of my party) also had a pet red dragon. DMs,, save the big stuff for later pls. Use point buy. Enforce game balance.
This...all of this, just put a smile on my face. Thank you Davvy sll my friends tell me they hate point buy but I absolutely love it. It ensures everyone starts off at an even playing field and no one is too powerful or too weak.
I honestly sort of think that, to many DnD fans, an even playing field between characters is low-key not what they want or expect from the game. That having all the character classes being equally powerful in combat, having a roughly the same control over the outcome of encounters, is somehow not really DnD. Like some people secretly, or even not so secretly like things like the inequality of 'linear fighters' and 'quadratic wizards', or having some characters with higher stats because they just rolled high a lot when making their character. I'll probably stop ranting now. I could go on about issues I have with DnD, mainly all the things that create inequality between players in the game, but I shouldn't unless someone were interested. Seriously, I could homebrew, and create something more along what I'd like to play, but then I'd have to run it, or make someone else run my homebrew rules, which is not likely.
@@Tiyev Yeah. You're right. I much prefer having random stats, even if they suck, than nearly every character being the same. But that's why most DMs do stuff like "You csn reroll if your stat total is beneath 70 or when none of your stats are above a 13". I recommend Counter Monkey's video "3d6 in order" a lot, he makes the arguement that rolling adds a lot of variety and uniqueness to characters.
My argument against this statement: everytime my friends roll stats, they get strong characters. My supporting comment for this statement: everytime i roll stats, I rarely outdo point buy
Both of your points could be used to defend Point Buy. I have also had friends routinely roll much higher stats, while I or others have lower stats when rolling. It seems unfair that a player can just be weaker by stats from no fault of their own for the entirety of the game.
I've been the guy that rolled better than everyone else, and I didn't like that either. Why does my wizard have higher construction, dexterity, and wisdom than the ranger? It just feels bad lol
In my personal experience (both as a dm and a player) players will ALWAYS take the path that has them roll the most dice. I've found that amongst adults playing the game, it's very easy to come to an understanding. Around my table we have a saying: Roll an adventurer, not a farmhand. If someone rolls and doesnt have a single stat above 10, thats abviously gonna feel bad. But why force the player to keep a set of scores that will obviously hinder their play experience? We've always ruled that (within reason) you could reroll your stats as often as needed to give everyone a fighting chance. Just talk to your players and work something out, if everyone is grown up about things and doesn't take advantage of the rules then everyone gets to have the same amount of fun. And really, thats what we're all here for right? Awesome video Davvy, maybe I will give point buy a try sometime. I am planning an open world pirate game that begins at level 1, so maybe we can test it out there.
In that case just have them Reroll. Or just make it so they Reroll 1’s. Rolling gives u much better stats then point buy or standard array. I say as I’ve made over a dozen characters. One being point buy, one standard array and the rest rolling. And all the times I rolled I got much better stats (even the ones where I couldn’t Reroll ones.
@@davidstratton696 yes exactly. I've never had a problem with rerolling stats at my table, and forcing someone to use a low set of scores when they could reroll and not hurt anyone is kind of foolish imo.
You’re objectively right, but the funniest one shot I ever played was the one-shot where everyone rolled 1d20 for each stat, it was utter chaos and we loved it
Objectively speaking, rolling randomly statistically produces a better stat array then the point buy one. It's 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9 when using 4d6 drop lowest.
That sounds like a fun oneshot but not a fun campaign necessarily. I’d fee the funny ness of having something like 4 int would get very annoying after the first or second session as other players would have to take care of you and direct your character rather than playing their own
Gross. It’s also the worst way (It’s also the most boring cause everyone is gonna have the exact same stats). I’ve created a one character using point buy and one using standard array and they both suck. I’ve made a dozen characters not including the two I mentioned before and every single one has been so much better (because I rolled for em).
@@dozi3r sorry for not having seen this. 16/15/13/11/9/7 That way everyone has 3 things they're good at, 1 thing they're okay at, and 2 things they're bad at. Forces everyone to have to play around something they can't do, instead of being good at everything.
I normally give my players the choice of all the options, because I lack the energy to give a shit about things. I'm definitely a good dm. Definitely. I do allow my players to reroll crap stats though. I refuse to balance for a party when the tank can die from stubbing their toe lol
Most fair way I found is roll 4 d6 and take the 3 highest. Also reroll any 1's. This way most of the time characters are all around the same power level. But they will be a little stronger than a normal party.
@@BasedGarlicMan That's what my party does and we still ended up with some low stats and some really high stats and I think it made it fun and made us feel stronger in our niche.
To me rolling makes it feel less hand crafted and more manufactured by a company that got the wrong blueprint. Point buy can be tailored to what fits your character, there's nothing manufactured about that. It let's you have your full creative freedom to handmake your character to suit your vision for them. How is that manufactured?
Are we just ignoring the real reason everyone chooses to roll for stats: a statistical advantage. I think point buy is better conceptually but once you have rolled 3 18s for one character than maxing out at 15 just makes you feel really weak, and if any DM's let their players choose than the uninitiated who choose point buy are just screwed.
Yea but his point is that the game is balanced around that weaker starting point for meaningful character advancement choices. I’m running a game with lvl 15 characters and once your key stat hits 20 it gets a little less exciting to level up. Lower starting stats makes that take longer and keep the excitement of advancement alive
@Bob Bobbertson yea no. It's a really bad idea to leave it to player by player choice because then you can still end up with someone who chooses to roll getting dummy high or low stats and one way or another making all the other players feel like shit the way davvy described.
@@Dyllyn133 Essentially the conversation: Him: One player rolling and another using point buy can lead to dissapointment because one outshines the other. You: Your shit at telling stories. Get outta here with that, just because someones enjoyment is less because they're outshone doesn't mean they're a munchkin.
My main issue with point buy is I spend too much time trying to make the "right" decision as to how much to increase build my stats, when I roll that's what I have to work with. If we are using point buy I just ask the GM to give me a stat array to work with otherwise I will micro manage the fun out of the game for myself. When I GM I have players roll and boost anyone who did not quite roll well enough.
I make all players who are new to the game use the standard array. Everyone else may point buy as per p.13 of the PHB. Davvy encapsulates the pitfalls of rolling for stats perfectly.
I’ve been DMing for almost 4 years, and I’ve found that I don’t have a huge issue with letting players start with a 20 in a stat. It’s a natural cap. Not to mention I think it can show a character being almost superhuman, which is neat IMO. That being said, I hate running low level games and prefer higher level play, so I’m a bit biased in that regard. My issue with point buy is I think it’s too restrictive on the stats people can have, ESPECIALLY if you are playing a Paladin or a monk and are dependent on multiple abilities. I’ve always found that it’s better to let them roll (I allow 4d6, drop the lowest and reroll ones, or a 26d6 dice pool, where you divide up the 26d6 into 6 sets of dice, none of which can have less than 3d6). I think that the best solution is having all the players or the DM roll a set and then the party and DM decide which set to use. That way, you aren’t likely to have a party where everyone starts with 3 18s, but you also don’t have a hard cap of 15 and 8 (plus racial bonuses) for starting stats. I also think point buy is unfair to players who want to build a character that has “suboptimal” stat bonuses, like a halfling Wizard, where you’re the only one in your party with a 15 in your primary stat and everyone else has a 16 or higher. IDK I just don’t think that point buy is really fair to everyone and I think it keeps the power level a tad low for my taste as a DM. I think that the best approach to point buy would be to remove some of the caps and to increase the points. I like having players with high and low stats. A stat with a big negative can be fun if done right.
What I've seen a few DMs do is use 32 point buy with a cap of 16. I've found that it allows to pretty good characters, even the poor monk and paladin, while keeping the field fair for everyone. That let's you build your character how you want without having the possibility of coming up with an amazing character and just rolling god awful tot he point where the character won't work anymore, which has happened to me personally.
@Bob Bobbertson, I don't know you're talking to when you say "you people". Everyone in this chat agrees that it good to change the rule to suit their desires for their table, and they've done so. As far as the rules being law. There is sound reasoning behind the people who believe that axiom, which is that the game was balanced based off the rules as stated, and thus reasonable expectation of similar difficulty for each player hinges on the table following the rules. Of course, the DM can do whatever the heck they please to make the game the right difficulty, and so it's a moot point. However, the programmed balance is useful to DMs that lack the skill to adjust the difficulty on the fly without breaking the immersion of their players, which is very tricky to pull off in a satisfying way.
> I also think point buy is unfair to players who want to build a character that has “suboptimal” stat bonuses, like a halfling Wizard Then just, extend the point buy system? You already have 3-18.
I made a point buy where everything starts at 10 then you spend points to increase it, but you can decrease stats for extra here is the system Point buy starts at 10 in each stat and goes up to 18 also you can go down to 3 gaining extra points. You start with 3=-16 4=-12 5=-9 6=-6 7=-4 8=-2 9=-1 10=0 11=1 12=2 13=3 14=5 15=7 16=10 17=13 18=17 Starting points: 34
@@oksuree You shouldn't be able to start of with that high of an ability score? If I roll 4d6 and drop the lowest, the highest number I can get is 18. A friend of mine has a Sorcerer we like to adress as Swolcerer, because they rolled a strength of 17 (DM made them roll in order). The lowest stat she rolled overall on that character was 15 or 14.
@@ThorsShadow That is the whole point of this video. Rolling for stats is broken because you can end up with super high stats. That makes the game boring.
Davvy: "the game was designed around this so it's more balanced" Me, currently DMing: **ROLL FOR STATS, BUT ONLY TAKE IT IF YOU GET 72 OR ABOVE,* **ASI **_AND_** FEAT* (doesn't count for Vhuman's species ability) **REROLL ALL 1s FOR HEALTH* **START AT 2ND OR 3RD LEVEL BECAUSE 1ST LEVEL IS SHIT* Also me: "hmm... maybe this is a bit imbalanced" also also me: " *YEAH LET'S GIVE OUR PLAYERS A 34 POINT POINT BUY AND GO UP TO 18 NEXT CAMPAIGN* "
Rerolling 1s for health gives the same average health increase as taking the average. Which one is the game balanced around? But ability score and feat on an ASI is HUGE! cause you're players may be smart and pick feats that come with +1s until they have multiple 20s
I also crank up the point allotment because I find that, between the infrequency of ASIs relative to previous editions and the fact that you can't pick a race/class combo that's offtype (Dwarven Bard for example) that starts the game higher than a +2 to be pretty weaksauce and unsatisfying. I also raise the Stat cap to 22 at level 12 so there's that
4e really, really liked Single Attribute Dependent characters. If you could get a high number in your "main" stat, you were good for most classes and builds. We only rolled stats for one game, and just house-ruled that they could reroll if they didn't get at least one 16+. We got a fighter that started with 15, 16 or 17 in every stat. He was arguably weaker than the characters that got to start with an 18, but ultimately they all just felt fine and half the stats never seemed to matter. With 5e's much gentler progression, bounded accuracy and (only slightly; ffs dex) less SAD-focused design, I would never roll stats. Just seems like it's asking for trouble.
@@dragonmaster613 standard array removes a lot of player creativity, and doesn't work well with some races. Terrible option when it's just one option point buy can do. Just use point buy if you're gonna standard array. Everyone else can have their options of how to make their character and you can use the standard array yourself.
I think the only thing you failed to mention is that point buy allows you to be good at stuff but only at the cost of being bad at other things. Not only does emphasize the differences between characters and keep the spotlight moving, it encourages you to be more creative.
@@tjl4688 perhaps in theory but rarely in practice. Been playing for 15 years now, never seen a group which rolls with 4d6 which doesn’t allow for rerolls. No one has ever rerolled for when they rolled so well that they were beyond the limits of the party. People only want to reroll when they’re weak. Sure no one wants to be the worst character on the table, but so much for organic.
@@mogalixir so why are we rolling and not just giving people high stats? If you’re trying to represent that the best of the best adventure so point buy with more points. That way everyone is better.
@@tjl4688 Organic or not doesn't matter. The game's supposed to be fun, and being weak isn't fun for most. I don't want to play a peasant just because it's organic
No1 is supposed to be a god at level 1. I hate players that want to take inspiration from a manga or anime series and don’t understand you can’t be a character 500 episodes in at level one lmao.
That’s a bad argument for 2 reasons: 1) unless your cheating your stats should be about equal to point buy on average. 2) You can just increase the cap on point buy to allow them better stats. Rolling leading to stinger characters is a myth
@@40faith27 So dumb question, why not? Why is it so important that your players start off as weak ass nuggets before having to wait months or longer to finally level up enough to enjoy a teensy bit of power fantasy before you cancel the game because they hit level 14 and you just don't want to run a high level campaign because now the players are OP and the game is boring for you. Level 1 sucks... Like a lot. If you want to insist that players shouldn't build their characters to strong heroes who are exceptional in any way because it doesn't fit their level then just start games at a higher level, we all know statistically the level 1 characters aren't getting the payoff of earning their way to level 20 anyways.
in one of my parties we did a semi roll. every person (including the dm) rolled 4d6's and removing the lowest value. that gives us 6 rolls with which we make our characters, all using the same 6 numbers just different shuffle
@@SynderFGC it's a popular system, not the only one. but the unique thing was not the 4d6-X but that every player rolls once. that everyone has the same 6 rolls
An interesting way to roll for stats, have the same stat array for the entire party. My group has done this a couple times and it’s a ton of fun. Though you have opened my eyes to Point Buy which I’ve also done a few times.
2 reasons I avoid point buy 1. It's too weak, the fact that 15 is the limit feels very odd and I can never really get stats I like 2. The character doesn't feel unique and doesn't feel like I've built them even though I've put more effort into it than rolling would These can both be fixed with a creative variation on point buy but the standard doesn't seem right
At level one I can get a 17 and two 16s. That's actually insane. Or one 17 and one 16 if not playing a half elf. That's plenty at level one to be good at something
@@ThePalePrince presuming you taylored your race to fit optimization. I don't like having to sacrifice the character I want to play to get decent stats not to mention that's presuming you put an 8 in everything else. I'm all for having weaknesses but I like my characters to also have things they're OK at. And if I'm being honest. If you made that many sacrifices a 17 isn't that impressive either.
@@OwenOfElliott you have unreasonable expectations for how strong a level ONE should be don't know what to tell you. I've never felt like I was limited on what I could play. With two plus threes I can still have three average or above average stats with one 8. I could choose to min max and have three epic stats and three meh stats. I've even made a plus 18 stat with a level one to be super badass
@@ThePalePrince then the problem arises when comparing rolled stats to point buy. Most rolled characters I've played with have had at least a 16 in one stat. Though I dislike rolled stats they are what I am most familiar with and what I compare to. It should also be mentioned that overall lower stats doesn't necessarily mean weaker, it often simply means your character's ability is far more dependent on the dice than build. Characters are a lot more fun when they have things that they are consistently good at rather than occasionally good at.
Hey Davvy, my groups and I have been doing something a little more fun in the last few games we've played. Everyone in the group rolls their would be stats in order (Str->Dex->Con->etc) and they go into a pool for later on. At the end, we roll a dice for a "Draft order" and take turns picking one score from any stat pool until all are stats are assigned by default or choice. We find that it usually leads to more balanced characters with some scores you'd never think you'd invest in to begin with which gives us at least a little more inspiration when creating characters. I highly recommend giving it a try.
You say that, I say that, but every GOD DAMN TIME I roll for stats instead of doing point-buy. Why? Because I am an idiot and I think that this time it will be different :(
I like that you still allow people to use the dices. I personally prefer to roll the stats, i started playing like 2 years ago in 5e and just like the ramdomness, i build a character based on the roll: if it has a high DEX monk, ranger, figter or rouge. If it has high CHA a bard, sorcerer, etc. But wen i build NPCs i use pointbuying, just to be balance things more easily, and i always ask my players witch one they want to use.
I've always found the argument of Point Buy VS Roll for Stats wierd. Do modern tables force you to play the first set if stats you create? Are players getting pissed that one if there friends lucked out and got a couple 18s? I do not understand what's going on here?
I actually have a system if any are interested. A character may spend 12 points to go to 16 if they have no racial bonuses in the stat (Costs 3 more than 15). A character may also gain a point by putting a 7 in a stat. Some may use this to minmax, some may do wierd race/class combos, and others might have a low stat for fun, but no matter what I find the players love the expansion of choice.
I get where you're coming from, man, but... the randomness is fun. Forces you to get creative. Makes the experience more different from character to character. Uniformity of experience is not my jam. It's not about always being of a comparable power to each other or from game to game, for me, it's about telling a new story every time.
It's a fantasy game. If you need to be "forced" to be creative, you're doing it wrong. If you don't think point buy can be used to tell a different story with every character, you're doing it wrong. The things that make two characters of the same class different should not be their stats. It should be their personality, goals, play style, etc. You can play a bard that's all about healing and support and singing songs, or you can play a mute bard with a broken instrument that only uses debuff spells and makes the enemies ears bleed with how bad they are. Very different play style. Very different experience. But has nothing to do with stats. In fact, stats get in the way of that diversity. If you roll bad stats, your low spell DC will prevent either of those characters from being able to utilize their play style effectively and will cause them to feel useless and fall into the background. Having comparable stats to your allies is almost a prerequisite for being able to make any kind of character or play style work. To quote another point buy discussion: "Randomness belongs in session, but a single set of rolls determining your character's effectiveness for the entire game is something I hate"
Davvy. You 100% changed my mind. If I was a dm I’d absolutely use point buy and all your points on the subject just made sense... but as a player. Imma try to get them high rolls. If they allow us 4d6 drop the lowest. I rly rly want that 16 or 17, bc picking up feats is fun. You are totally right, but I’m just greedy lmao
I'm playing a game right now with Elite Array. I feel like it really let me make the character I wanted, and it's let me stack on feats without having to try and play catch-up to get my stats up to a decent level.
@@misterdayne2792 Elite array is similar to the point buy system except instead of 27 points you effectively get 25 points and they are distributed automatically as a 15 14 13 12 10 and 8 which you can allocate to stats
I use an improved version of standard array because I don’t like being maxed at a 17 with racial bonuses. I used to roll until I realized I was always shooting for a specific distribution, so I made that distribution into a stat array.
I've always done Point by, but more recently as I've searched for ways to simplify the game, I've taken to just letting players set their stats as they want, as long as the total sum of their stat modifiers is +7 before racisl bonuses.
@@caprikiwi5600 takes a bit of minor adjustment, but unless your players are really obsessed with rolling dice for everything, once you get used to it, it really helps speed things up.
I didn't think I'd agree with this video so much. You had me at "it maxes out at 16" but that tangent about rogues and fighters was a really great point
One variation on rolling I like a lot: All the players roll stats together and use the same array. (Really easy if you have three or six players, if you have four or five have each roll for one stat and let the DM do the rest) That way it's still random but also fair.
@@irok1 well you would roll new for every campaign you use this in, obviously. I'm not suggesting you make one array to use in all of your games, that defeats the purpose of rolling stats altogether.
My group gives options for building. Could either A. Roll 6d6 seven times droping the lowest number and then placing them where you want. B. Taking a standard array Or C. Point buy. It allows the players to choose whats most comfortable for them because some don't like how random dice can be
2:37 Just a bit of a nitpick here, the fighter getting so many ABIs is actually a callback to earlier editions where the fighter would routinely get bonus combat feats as they leveled up.
I started out with 5e and point buy, and I love it. The only change I would make, though, is to enable stats below 8. I made a character who was supposed to be really dumb, and it just didn't feel right to give her 8 INT and 9 CHA. To avoid making this unbalanced, I'd say 1. subtracting from a stat that's already 8 or below does not give additional points to use and 2. using all the provided points is not required.
Great video. I think the best system is doing anything and then heavily modifying afterwards. Also one thing with point buy, sometimes certain class/race combos can't give you a +3 so your dragonborn cleric can't have amazing wisdom because... dragonborn can't be wise I guess? It's easy to homebrew but it's still kind of dumb
might i suggest, have a dm who knows what their doing and says; "Re roll yours because the dice screwed you" or "Change that one number if you wouldn't mind, for balance." its still balanced, it's still the fun of rolling dice, but the only change is the players respect the game. as well, use a system rather than 4d6 drop lowest. That method is broken as. Such as 4d4+2, and as DM say stats cap at 18 for starting level. With this all the issues with rolling are gone, theirs still the fun of someone having a 6 charisma or 6 strength. In addition point buy heavily favors casters like wizards and sorcerers, specifically at low levels. A Caster like these only needs one high stat to be viable and with point buy you can max out your spell casting modifier and then have 12s in all but one other stat. so whereas a fighter who needs two or three good stats to be viable, the sorcerer would only need the one and the suddenly have no weaknesses while the fighter is force to have at least one weakness to be at all viable.
As a DM, I encourage rolling for stats, because I think it fun to be super good in something and super bad at others (meaning you'll need your party to cover that area for you). BUT I make sure that things are balanced. What I do is a take those that rolled low and give them a free feat (even two, if they rolled pretty low). Balance, but in a different and fun way ;)
That’s exactly why the fighter gets more ASIs than anyone else lol... If you’re making your players overpowered at level one then they have no incentive to care about their stats and will only want magic items and other ways to boost theirs already capped stat. Making players start with standard array or point buy sets a limit that is needed to get players to focus on the game and not their stats.
Thank you for your fun explanation of the point buy system. My DM (or in this case GM) is using the 5e point buy system for our stats and it confused me greatly. Now I may use it for future characters
I still roll stats every time in D&D and most games, it's very fun, sometimes you're Halfthor Bjornsson, sometimes you're Urkle, i think just in WoD games we pointbuy because it's much more powergaming of a setting.
@@2MeterLP not for most people, you just play to your strengths, not your weaknesses. Einsten wouldn't try to defeat Tyson in a boxing match. Almost all classes in D&D have access magic or magic-like effects. There's a lot of things that make you useful other than the size of your biceps.
@@sineadthomas2024 Did that ever actually happen to you? If i'd roll 24 1's on 24 d6's you bet your ass i'm going to play that character, it's a once in a life time opportunity. Most likely going to make him a Druid. Edit: It makes sense now that i think about it, standard human kid, realizes he's not good at anything, hears stories about people being able to shapeshift into bears and stuff, seeks out a druid circle, learn's to commune with nature, feels accepted and peaceful, lives off the land. Joins an adventuring party now that he learned a few tricks and is not a pushover. Feels a need to protect the weak since he was bullied by other kids in his youth.
@@letopizdetz Wizards of the coast specifically said that rolling for stats is something they dont want for game balance.(bounded acurracy) You play d&d for power, you are not someone that us fun to play with, you are the very thing wizards of the coast made point buy to destroy. Have you learnt about game design, have you learnt about balancing, have you heard about enjoyment. I have learnt about game design, i have read the entairty of every rule and every ability, i have read about design desicions and interviews from wizards of the coast. And you, you are just a righr brained power hungry player. You are "that guy"
This!!! So much this!!! I was introduced to D&D by Dungeons and Dragons Online, which as an MMO required point buy. It is so easy and it really lets you play what you want, no risk. The only downside I can see is that races that don't give even a +1 to your main stat will hold you back, but I say that's more how bonuses after point buy are given, not point buy's fault.
I only started D&D less than a year ago, and I prefer rolling. I'm certainly not attached to any one system, and I don't mind math, but if you always know the number of points you have to work with, I find you don't get the fun surprises of a character like Nott from CR, a character with a 5 in Charisma. Those little weaknesses just can't be achieved when you know the ins and outs of what your character is going to be. For me, it just adds a lot more personality to my character knowing that, even with a stat total minimum that my group goes by, there will be little quirks which I will have to learn how to role-play.
I feel this video. I will only ever play if the whole table does point buy. I absolutely hate the situations you mentioned in the beginning. Even worse is when that one guy rolls like four 18 in his stats.
Personally, I actually LOVE playing bad characters. That’s why I love rolling for stats as I tend to roll poorly. I mean, I chuckle along with the DM when I get a nat 1. I’ve rolled a 17 once and that’s the highest I’ve gotten. Nothing is more fun to me than playing the bard with 5 Charisma. But I totally get why people don’t like doing it.
I rolled a human rogue that's strength score was a glorious 4. Character was absolutely worthless in 70% of the dungeon scenarios because she frequently had to be carried, or have someone else carry her equipment. She had a set of travellers clothes, a satchel with some lock picks, a mess kit, and a healer's kit, and used a single dagger that was eventually upgraded to a glorious +1 dagger. That's all she had the entire campaign. She made up for it with stunning mental stats, being very good at picking locks and finding/disarming traps, and being able to trick guards into thinking the NPC's started all of those bar fights we got into. It was pretty fun playing what was nearly the weakest character possible.
That's the exact reason I use point buy- I want a terrible stat. Everyone I know does 'roll 4 drop the lowest,' I always wind up with middling to good stats. To me the best characters have 1-2 great stats, 2-3 middling stats, and one TERRIBLE stat. I feel giddy when I roll that 5 for dex. I don't care as much for point buy in the book, my table always brings back the old version of point buy- exactly the same except you can take points out of a stat to put in another. so I can guarantee myself that weak point I enjoy. also has the benefit of not having a player gloat over thier straight 17's and 18's for the next year.
I do a lot of games with kids. Lately, I've been exploring a new system of ability score generation where the players literally get to pick their own base scores (before any racial bonuses) , provided they follow they meet the following criteria: 1. Scores must be between 6 and 18 2. The modifiers for your scores must add up to 1d4+4 (or whatever you think the setting should be set to). 5 would be in line with the PHB standard array, and 6 is the max you can get with 27 pt buy, but you could tweak it if you wanted something more. 3. There must be at least one negative modifier 4. At least three scores must be even. As wordy as it is, it seems to be easier for a lot of players to understand than the point buy system of escalating costs. But it keeps all players on the same relative playing field, which means no over- or under-powered characters to start.
@@malmasterson3890 haha yeah dude, I've meet some of those. I just like the standard array because then no one starts with two 16's and two 8's basically, plus, I just think it's easier when I'm making characters quickly for people :)
@@leodouskyron5671 that's true, if I remember you can make something like 15, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 with it or something like that, which I was considering adopting but I'm not 100% sure
I actually use a modified point buy rule set for my games. The normal rules of point buy still apply except for one change. Players can raise the primary stat of their class to 16 if (and only if) their racial stat bonuses do not allow them to reach it normally. The point cost to go from 15 to 16 is 3 (equivalent to the bonus it grants to your rolls which utilize the stat). I find this breaks up some issues with min maxing where for example a player might want to play a half orc cleric but doesn't want deal with only having a +2 in Wisdom until level 4. For those curious, the half orc cleric stat spread using this system comes out to: 14/10/14/10/16/10 By comparison a wood elf of the same class using point buy would end up with the exact same stat arrangement (assuming they chose to spread their stats the same way and didn't take a negative in one stat). The point is this way characters can choose atypical races for a given class without feeling like they're objectively weaker than someone who chose an optimized race/class combo.
"My character concept is that I have an 18 in CHA and proficiency in deception and stuff. I didn't roll any 18s? Waah!" vs "Huh, the sixth set of 3d6 came up 18. I guess my guy has a really commanding presence and a strong personality - usually I just play meathead fighters but I think I'll make him more of a tactician and born warlord."
@@RoninCatholic duuuude you literaly just described how my Ice Genasi (race homebrewed by the DM) Barbarian/Fighter in the current camping im playing was born, i also got a 17 on STR and a 9 on INT which the DM let me turn into 7 in exchange for a feat, is just so fucking fun to roleplay him cuz he's a prodigy in battle and very very good intimidator while outside of it he read books, signs and other stuff very very slowly and is dumb af constantly making convoluted off the wall plans trying to fix social situations that inevitabily end up going go wrong, its just beautiful
The weird thing, my group doesn't do either. We create char concepts, and base on those concepts, assign what would be the appropiate number. It's weird, but we do this in order to roleplay better. It somehow helps us a lot. Examples: - My friend played as a Ranger Drow and was basically Legolas, so he had +4 in DEX. He was ditching out damage after damage, and it gave off the feeling he was actually a damn strong and experienced ranger. And he played the part, always alert, always ready if things went down to fighting. - I played as an exiled Goblin Fighter. He had -3 STR and -3 DEX, but with +2 CON and +3 INT. His stats were more akin to a mage, but because of his tribe, he wanted to become a warrior and prove himself. So during our adventures, the little guy discovered magic could be used to be a better warrior, so he turned into an Eldricht Knight. - I had a friend who played as a charismatic Necromancer, who convinced both undead and living to be on his side. His INT was real bad, but his CHA was good. My point with all of this, find what works for your group and have fun!
At the mention of "killing a dragon in your background" i immediatly thought of Shark Tale, where everyone thinks the fish killed a shark and that might be an interesting concept where folk hero background is actually a sham
I started that way as well, mainly because friend of mine, who have been playing for decades, for some reason, try to minimize the ammount of rolling or randomness in the game. I was okay with it, but found a discord group that did roll for stats, and we are having just as much fun. All down to personal preference. I just like rolling my dice because I love the clicky clack.
I have rolled for health, even though I'm strongly against rolling for stats. We do reroll 1s on HP tho. I'm not really sure if I prefer standard hp, it's certainly more fair for everyone, but HP isn't that much of a difference (the barbarian will almost always still have a lot of hp and the wizard will still be fragile). Stats is another thing tho, since it can make your character completely useless
@SkillsDND statically yea, but not always. I don't want someone in the party be significantly stronger than another, because it doesn't make for a lot of fun imo (and that's what DnD is about). I understand if you do, just not my cup of tea. At least for a full campaign, maybe a oneshot or smth could be fun
@SkillsDND oh come on that's grossly exaggerated. Yes there is a power difference between casters and martials, and I wish there wasn't, but now you're just being pity. I just said it's not my thing. Enjoy your rpg however you want and I'll do mine how I want okay?
You roll for stats BEFORE deciding what you want to play! That way you can be a barbarian with an 18 and two 5 or a fighter with all rownd good stats, mabye it´s just me, but I think it´s pretty cool to have the dice surprice you, thats why we have dice in the first place.
Agreed. The last/only time I rolled for stats,the spread was just 11s and 12s,but with point buy,I can have 15s or 10s or a 8 or 3 15s with 3 8s,or 3 14s,with 3 10s,or whatever else I might want. And everyone else has the exact same amount of points to spend on whatever they want!
@@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar I don't know this particular method, but if I'm DMing, yes! If the points are put of balance I may let players with slightly lower scores (I don't let the difference get too wide) have more magical items or more starting equipment.
@@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar Having 18's doesn't make them god... Although I also like the idea of characters not starting out with 18s. Maybe something like, point buy, but with an ability score increase to an ability score not covered by your racial bonuses, something like that, and it would allow characters to swap this ABI for a racial feat at character creation, as well (probably expanded it so that they all get Prodigy and maybe something like 'Versatile: +1 to 1 stat, 1 skill proficiency, and 1 non-skill proficiency like a language or tools or whatnot. Heck, even doing point buy, but also getting a d6 to roll and add to 1 stat, gives a little randomness, without too much of a gap between unlucky and lucky players.
One thing I like to add to point by is the option to have their lowest stat be a 7 (before racial bonuses) and their highest a 16 (before racial bonuses). Helps provide some more variety.
I used to be a passionate defender of rolling for stats as it was a way to enforce characters to be varied and unique from one another. More recently however for online games after seeing the disparity getting worse with Roll20's odd algorithm even with my house rule of "roll 4 reroll 1s and drop the lowest" was not enough to keep it on a fair upcurve. I started trying out stat arrays which worked really well and while I've not done point buy as much I think I'd like to try it more in the future after seeing this video.
Polkatown Then you can’t count on rolling either because odds are that you’ll fail to reach those numbers. Much much better to convince your DM to do a high powered campaign and use an altered version of an ability score generating system. Or homebrew to change the requirements for your idea. E.g. ignoring some ability score requirements for multiclassing, or changing what ability something depends on. Really want a Druid+Paladin multiclass? You could maybe ignore needing Str for the multiclass, or even make a Cha-based Druid or Wis-based Paladin.
My favorite method for stats is a method someone developed on Reddit. Get 12 cards with the following numbers: 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6, 4, 4, 4, 3. Draw 2 cards and add them together: that's your stat total. Do it for all 6 stats and boom there you go. This allows the stats to be decently random but still allows everyone to keep the same stat total. If you want more randomization feel free to use a wider numerical array, as long as the total equals around 75 (statistical average.) You can even draw more cards if you want, drawing 3 from a pile of 18 for example. It's a little weird at first but once you get the hang of it it's the best of both worlds.
my group started on point buy, then drifted into rolling for stats. Point buy is better for making a balanced character tailored to your character concept, but rolling gets you avengers tier god stats sometimes. My group eventually settled on "Use ether, but your highest stat becomes 18." This solves everything. If you point buy, you have your free +4 to whatever so you can shine just like the lucky rollers, but if you roll you have a buffer to fall back on. Its a boost to point buy and a safety net for rolling
People insist on rolling for stats because it's "old-school" and "how dnd was intended" but don't realise your ability scores actually modified very little originally compared to modern dnd. Just because you had fun playing spin the bottle in high school doesn't mean you should give Russian Roulette a whirl.
That statement is usually pretty correct, but it's misleading here because when you do the math 4d6 drop lowest gives higher numbers. According to anydice, the average set for 4d6 is the same as standard array except the highest is 16 (allowing a +4 at level 1) and the lowest is 9. Of course, this wouldn't allow you to do the shitty meme of 15 15 15 8 8 8, but standard array is close to an optimal option to point buy into anyway
@@Vawk20 use more points if you want a super hero campaign, use less if you want gritty. You just paid the gambler tax by doing a bunch of unnecessary maths.
@@2MeterLP I haven't done that since first edition. If I'm running a heroic campaign everyone gets full hit point. If I'm running a gritty campaign you get half +1. Being a DM is also being a game designer. But it's one of the things the books almost never cover. Even if you don't play GURPS, I suggest picking up maybe some of the older editions for cheap, just for the lessons on game design.
@@2MeterLP, the typical rule for rolling stats is to reroll 1's. According to probability, this makes the expected value of the rolled health exactly equal to the average value that you can automatically choose. After a dozen rolls, the results are very similar.
I like rolling stats because of the reasons you named, but also because I feel like it creates an emotional situation early on, while creating a character and also because, well, I like having a chance to get a 20, but I also use a rule I shamelessly copied from a certain famous DM and allow players to reroll if their total amounts to 70 or lower. I don't put a limit on the upper end of the scale, because I feel like having a player with really good stats doesn't hurt the group as much as having players with low stats that really just spend all their time feeling bad. However, I might try point buy or standart array at some point in the future, because one or two of my players have voiced small discontent with the randomness and I might at least allow them to pick what to use.
"And now you know how to use point buy. You're welcome."
NGL, I half-expected a buff man with a blue worm for a head to pop up there.
*"Banjo (?) noises in the distance"*
Fun Fact: Standard Array is just a specific set of point buy stats.
So just use standard array
And classes that use 3 ASI like Barb/Monk/Ranger/Paladin are usualy better using point buy so they can get that 15/14/14 at the cost of taking another 8.
And it's a good one, too. I've rarely NEEDED to use point buy for a build unless I need a very specific combination of stats. Standard array gives you two good stats, two alright stats, and two "bad" stats (and even one of your bads is just a flat +0). That gives you excellent storytelling opportunities - you're great at this, you suck at this, and you can give most other things the old college try.
@@archmagemc3561 3? Isn't it 4 ASI for all classes except fighter and rogue?
@@bonogiamboni4830 No, what I mean is the stats that class wants. So barb wants Con/Str/Dex, Monk wants Wis/Dex/Con, Paladin wants Str/Con/Cha. Meanwhile classes like Wizard and Sorc just want Primary/Con
Davvy:"Now you know how to use point buy, you're welcome"
Me: "huh, why does that sound familiar?"
in the distance
Jocat:"WELCOME TO A CRAP GUIDE TO DND!!!"
Well, ever since JoCat started backing him on Patreon he's been different.
@@jonathanmarth6426 what do you mean person in fireball distance?
*jocat theme begins blaring loudly*
@@superultragamer8245 *wiggling intensifies*
Over the hills you hear the jaunty harpsichord music coming closer
I had a realization during my current game when, during the 3rd session, I asked "wait, am I the only person who used point buy?"
And got a resounding "yes."
"Now you know how to use point buy youre welcome" JOCAT HAS A HOSTAGE
Where does he say it...???
Literally Everyone: ASI
Davvy: ABI
Ability Bcore Increase
ABIlity score increase
Ability Bottom Increase
Oh, thank the gods I'm not the only one.
Butnoseriously, I just say ABI because it's more fluid to say. It's just short for "ABility Increase".
Davvy: point buy
Most people: roll for stats
Me: *STANDARD ARRAY*
Mood
Yeah when most people talk about making characters its either point by ore rolling. Why do they ignore standerd array?
@@thedisabledviking I think that most people want to have a few really good stats but with standard array you just feel decent at everything except 1 and most players like to be specialists. Also with being just decent most of the time someone can do something better than you so you aren't picked to do things often.
Yep, makes life much easier since you don't need to have your players explain their point buy or watch their rolls to prevent errors or cheating
standard array is fire. it's point buy but no math. why not use it? oh right cause you can't get an 18. i love standard array.
In 5e, the PHB for some reason provides rolled stats first, then standard array, and then point buy.
Honestly, I'm fine with rolling stats if everyone's on the same playing field. What I like to do is have my players roll 4d6 drop lowest 6 times, and then arrange them all onto a spreadsheet, and let them assign or choose based on an initiative order, with the order reversing whenever it gets to the bottom. (So the people at the bottom of the current order get two picks in a row.)
It can lead to a lot of high scores, but it prevents one player from having 2 18s while another player doesn't have anything above 14, while still having a bit of random / chance element. Another option is to have each player roll 4d6 once, and then you roll any extra times to get to 6 total scores, and everyone then has the same custom array.
That's so boring. Some characters are going to be better than others to start.. This allows weaker players to have their own arc for improvement and the players with the higher stats can take riskier options of play that would be bad ideas in any other situation.
@@Americanbadashh You're assuming every single game makes room for an 'arc of improvement.'
It doesn't really seem like a fair approach to basically have a mandatory "get stronger" period for some players that the others are allowed to use as an experiment phase.
I've had one game, a short one, where one player had no score above 14 (and 3 below 10), and one player had no score below 16 (with 3 18s). The one who got screwed over didn't have fun. The game was a one-shot so he didn't even have a chance to "get better" but even in a full campaign, unless he got a lot of DM handouts, there would not be enough increases for him to ever catch up with even a standard character.
Davvy, you realize that 5e wasn't at all the first edition to have point buy, right? 3.5, 3e, and Pathfinder (technically not an edition of D&D, but it basically is) all have point buy rules, the former two having it right in the DMG. The way you phrase things in the video gives me the impression that you're saying 5e is the first to bring in the system in, which just isn't true.
Not only that, if 5e was built around point buy, it would be the default method for stat distribution, not a variant rule.
@@Nazo4469 it should have been the default rule, but I assume the designers kept rolling as the default out of tradition.
To me it sounded like he was implying it was the edition built around PB, not the one that introduced it.
@@chukyuniqul were previous editions not balanced around a baseline of the average for rolls, or more than likely, point buy? Pretty sure that's *also* not a thing 5e did first. 4e definitely was, if 3.5 wasn't (which I'm pretty sure it was as well).
Yeah but no one knew about or needed them because there was no stat cap
The whole reason point buy is a big deal is because 5e restricts your mechanical growth and doesn't mesh well with high level play
“Rolling up a character with a 20 at level 1 is like making a character who killed a dragon in their backstory”
My first character was a viking barbarian who rolled a 20 in strength and killed a dragon in her backstory. She was level 1
Wew lad, daddy chappy I feel attacked.
EDIT: To add to the insanity of that character, my DM gave her a luck blade at second level. I am an asshole and I made him regret that. I ended using it to make a Red Dragon eternally loyal to me. So my over-statted Bear Totem barbarian that was basically unkillable without a TPK (Anything that'd kill her would decimate the rest of my party) also had a pet red dragon. DMs,, save the big stuff for later pls. Use point buy. Enforce game balance.
A 20 isn't even that high
@@goatskin4487 it's literally the highest your stats can be without items
Barbarian laughs in the background
@@goatskin4487 I mean yeah if I dont have a 45 in my core stat Im basically not ready for a game of dnd
dies to a stray goblin arrow
This...all of this, just put a smile on my face. Thank you Davvy sll my friends tell me they hate point buy but I absolutely love it. It ensures everyone starts off at an even playing field and no one is too powerful or too weak.
I honestly sort of think that, to many DnD fans, an even playing field between characters is low-key not what they want or expect from the game. That having all the character classes being equally powerful in combat, having a roughly the same control over the outcome of encounters, is somehow not really DnD. Like some people secretly, or even not so secretly like things like the inequality of 'linear fighters' and 'quadratic wizards', or having some characters with higher stats because they just rolled high a lot when making their character.
I'll probably stop ranting now. I could go on about issues I have with DnD, mainly all the things that create inequality between players in the game, but I shouldn't unless someone were interested.
Seriously, I could homebrew, and create something more along what I'd like to play, but then I'd have to run it, or make someone else run my homebrew rules, which is not likely.
@@Tiyev Yeah. You're right. I much prefer having random stats, even if they suck, than nearly every character being the same. But that's why most DMs do stuff like "You csn reroll if your stat total is beneath 70 or when none of your stats are above a 13". I recommend Counter Monkey's video "3d6 in order" a lot, he makes the arguement that rolling adds a lot of variety and uniqueness to characters.
My argument against this statement: everytime my friends roll stats, they get strong characters.
My supporting comment for this statement: everytime i roll stats, I rarely outdo point buy
Both of your points could be used to defend Point Buy. I have also had friends routinely roll much higher stats, while I or others have lower stats when rolling. It seems unfair that a player can just be weaker by stats from no fault of their own for the entirety of the game.
I've been the guy that rolled better than everyone else, and I didn't like that either. Why does my wizard have higher construction, dexterity, and wisdom than the ranger? It just feels bad lol
@@TaberIV that's why my friend group only does point buy now
You could also do heroic point buy if your group feels like
It also depends on how you roll it to I typically do 4d6 remove lowest reroll ones
In my personal experience (both as a dm and a player) players will ALWAYS take the path that has them roll the most dice. I've found that amongst adults playing the game, it's very easy to come to an understanding.
Around my table we have a saying: Roll an adventurer, not a farmhand. If someone rolls and doesnt have a single stat above 10, thats abviously gonna feel bad. But why force the player to keep a set of scores that will obviously hinder their play experience? We've always ruled that (within reason) you could reroll your stats as often as needed to give everyone a fighting chance.
Just talk to your players and work something out, if everyone is grown up about things and doesn't take advantage of the rules then everyone gets to have the same amount of fun. And really, thats what we're all here for right?
Awesome video Davvy, maybe I will give point buy a try sometime. I am planning an open world pirate game that begins at level 1, so maybe we can test it out there.
In that case just have them Reroll. Or just make it so they Reroll 1’s. Rolling gives u much better stats then point buy or standard array. I say as I’ve made over a dozen characters. One being point buy, one standard array and the rest rolling. And all the times I rolled I got much better stats (even the ones where I couldn’t Reroll ones.
@@davidstratton696 yes exactly. I've never had a problem with rerolling stats at my table, and forcing someone to use a low set of scores when they could reroll and not hurt anyone is kind of foolish imo.
Your point about point buy in relation to melee/caster progression & balancing was actually really good. I hadn't considered that before. Thanks
You’re objectively right, but the funniest one shot I ever played was the one-shot where everyone rolled 1d20 for each stat, it was utter chaos and we loved it
Objectively speaking, rolling randomly statistically produces a better stat array then the point buy one. It's 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9 when using 4d6 drop lowest.
@@guanglaikangyi6054 point buy is better than point buy.
@@guanglaikangyi6054 you just said that point buy is better than point buy. wtf.
That sounds like a fun oneshot but not a fun campaign necessarily. I’d fee the funny ness of having something like 4 int would get very annoying after the first or second session as other players would have to take care of you and direct your character rather than playing their own
@@benthomason3307 Fixed it
I've been using a custom standard array myself. Seems the most fair way.
what is your custom standard array?
@@dozi3r bump
Gross. It’s also the worst way (It’s also the most boring cause everyone is gonna have the exact same stats). I’ve created a one character using point buy and one using standard array and they both suck. I’ve made a dozen characters not including the two I mentioned before and every single one has been so much better (because I rolled for em).
@@dozi3r sorry for not having seen this.
16/15/13/11/9/7
That way everyone has 3 things they're good at, 1 thing they're okay at, and 2 things they're bad at. Forces everyone to have to play around something they can't do, instead of being good at everything.
Eyyyyy there’s the sound. Good vid
I love your random stat solution! My friends and I have been doing this method for a while and it works!!!
I normally give my players the choice of all the options, because I lack the energy to give a shit about things. I'm definitely a good dm. Definitely.
I do allow my players to reroll crap stats though. I refuse to balance for a party when the tank can die from stubbing their toe lol
give shits where they matter
Most fair way I found is roll 4 d6 and take the 3 highest. Also reroll any 1's. This way most of the time characters are all around the same power level. But they will be a little stronger than a normal party.
@@BasedGarlicMan That's what my party does and we still ended up with some low stats and some really high stats and I think it made it fun and made us feel stronger in our niche.
@@jedbex7070 It can be fun when you roll both a 17 an a 7 and have to figure out how to make that character work.
Matt the guy Mercer has a house rule I stole because it's good, 4d6 drop the lowest, of the total of all stats is below 70 you can reroll
While you pose a compelling argument to using point buy, I must say - rolling squares is so much more satisfying.
Only GAMERS where here before the first was taken down.
Just Some Kobold With Internet Access what’s the difference?
@@joshuadavenport-herbst2036 He tried uploading this vid earlier today but there was audio issues.
Me too
DamN true dat mane
i thought it was like a * HA HA GOTCHA POINT BUY IS FOR NEEERRRDS * but must have been an error
I just personally enjoy rolling for stats because it makes the character feel less manufactured.
> not going full genetics system
Bruh.
What does that even mean
To me rolling makes it feel less hand crafted and more manufactured by a company that got the wrong blueprint. Point buy can be tailored to what fits your character, there's nothing manufactured about that. It let's you have your full creative freedom to handmake your character to suit your vision for them. How is that manufactured?
Torun Smok were you handcrafted to have 18 STR?
@@pn2294 the point buy system can only go up to 15.
Are we just ignoring the real reason everyone chooses to roll for stats: a statistical advantage. I think point buy is better conceptually but once you have rolled 3 18s for one character than maxing out at 15 just makes you feel really weak, and if any DM's let their players choose than the uninitiated who choose point buy are just screwed.
Yea but his point is that the game is balanced around that weaker starting point for meaningful character advancement choices. I’m running a game with lvl 15 characters and once your key stat hits 20 it gets a little less exciting to level up. Lower starting stats makes that take longer and keep the excitement of advancement alive
@Bob Bobbertson yea no. It's a really bad idea to leave it to player by player choice because then you can still end up with someone who chooses to roll getting dummy high or low stats and one way or another making all the other players feel like shit the way davvy described.
Just use standard array
@Bob Bobbertson your stories must be pretty shit if everyone in them is an ubermensch without flaws and weaknesses
@@Dyllyn133
Essentially the conversation:
Him: One player rolling and another using point buy can lead to dissapointment because one outshines the other.
You: Your shit at telling stories.
Get outta here with that, just because someones enjoyment is less because they're outshone doesn't mean they're a munchkin.
I love using the standard point array. I hate rolling for stats. Thank you for making this
We all saw your mistake earlier, Davvy.
Yup
What was it?
1:30 is such a great way of explaining it. I'm shoving all my diehard roller friends' faces in that part of the video.
My main issue with point buy is I spend too much time trying to make the "right" decision as to how much to increase build my stats, when I roll that's what I have to work with. If we are using point buy I just ask the GM to give me a stat array to work with otherwise I will micro manage the fun out of the game for myself.
When I GM I have players roll and boost anyone who did not quite roll well enough.
How many of my 6's and 8's would you boost? lol
@@mandykarevicius9746 Depends, I have everyone add up their modifiers then adjust.
Hell yes. I've always kinda leaned to points-buy and wasn't sure why. This is why. :) Thanks for making this video.
"having 20 in something means to be the best of the best"
This one sentence, made me want to do point buy from now on.
I make all players who are new to the game use the standard array. Everyone else may point buy as per p.13 of the PHB.
Davvy encapsulates the pitfalls of rolling for stats perfectly.
I’ve been DMing for almost 4 years, and I’ve found that I don’t have a huge issue with letting players start with a 20 in a stat. It’s a natural cap. Not to mention I think it can show a character being almost superhuman, which is neat IMO. That being said, I hate running low level games and prefer higher level play, so I’m a bit biased in that regard.
My issue with point buy is I think it’s too restrictive on the stats people can have, ESPECIALLY if you are playing a Paladin or a monk and are dependent on multiple abilities. I’ve always found that it’s better to let them roll (I allow 4d6, drop the lowest and reroll ones, or a 26d6 dice pool, where you divide up the 26d6 into 6 sets of dice, none of which can have less than 3d6). I think that the best solution is having all the players or the DM roll a set and then the party and DM decide which set to use. That way, you aren’t likely to have a party where everyone starts with 3 18s, but you also don’t have a hard cap of 15 and 8 (plus racial bonuses) for starting stats.
I also think point buy is unfair to players who want to build a character that has “suboptimal” stat bonuses, like a halfling Wizard, where you’re the only one in your party with a 15 in your primary stat and everyone else has a 16 or higher. IDK I just don’t think that point buy is really fair to everyone and I think it keeps the power level a tad low for my taste as a DM.
I think that the best approach to point buy would be to remove some of the caps and to increase the points. I like having players with high and low stats. A stat with a big negative can be fun if done right.
What I've seen a few DMs do is use 32 point buy with a cap of 16. I've found that it allows to pretty good characters, even the poor monk and paladin, while keeping the field fair for everyone. That let's you build your character how you want without having the possibility of coming up with an amazing character and just rolling god awful tot he point where the character won't work anymore, which has happened to me personally.
I love the idea of being able to choose the stats that someone else rolled, and the DM can veto duplication of certain stat sets.
@Bob Bobbertson, I don't know you're talking to when you say "you people". Everyone in this chat agrees that it good to change the rule to suit their desires for their table, and they've done so.
As far as the rules being law. There is sound reasoning behind the people who believe that axiom, which is that the game was balanced based off the rules as stated, and thus reasonable expectation of similar difficulty for each player hinges on the table following the rules.
Of course, the DM can do whatever the heck they please to make the game the right difficulty, and so it's a moot point. However, the programmed balance is useful to DMs that lack the skill to adjust the difficulty on the fly without breaking the immersion of their players, which is very tricky to pull off in a satisfying way.
> I also think point buy is unfair to players who want to build a character that has “suboptimal” stat bonuses, like a halfling Wizard
Then just, extend the point buy system? You already have 3-18.
I've been playing point buy for over 15 years, it's not new but I'm glad you made this video.
I made a point buy where everything starts at 10 then you spend points to increase it, but you can decrease stats for extra here is the system
Point buy starts at 10 in each stat and goes up to 18 also you can go down to 3 gaining extra points. You start with
3=-16
4=-12
5=-9
6=-6
7=-4
8=-2
9=-1
10=0
11=1
12=2
13=3
14=5
15=7
16=10
17=13
18=17
Starting points: 34
You can go up to 18? That defeats the whole point. You shouldn't be able to start with that high of an ability score.
Why not just have them start at 3?
You could have all 14s for 30 points. That's 4 points lost but meh. Be a stock human with 15 in everything.
@@oksuree You shouldn't be able to start of with that high of an ability score? If I roll 4d6 and drop the lowest, the highest number I can get is 18. A friend of mine has a Sorcerer we like to adress as Swolcerer, because they rolled a strength of 17 (DM made them roll in order). The lowest stat she rolled overall on that character was 15 or 14.
@@ThorsShadow That is the whole point of this video. Rolling for stats is broken because you can end up with super high stats. That makes the game boring.
Davvy: "the game was designed around this so it's more balanced"
Me, currently DMing: **ROLL FOR STATS, BUT ONLY TAKE IT IF YOU GET 72 OR ABOVE,*
**ASI **_AND_** FEAT* (doesn't count for Vhuman's species ability)
**REROLL ALL 1s FOR HEALTH*
**START AT 2ND OR 3RD LEVEL BECAUSE 1ST LEVEL IS SHIT*
Also me: "hmm... maybe this is a bit imbalanced"
also also me: " *YEAH LET'S GIVE OUR PLAYERS A 34 POINT POINT BUY AND GO UP TO 18 NEXT CAMPAIGN* "
Yeah, I started with 32 points for point buy.
Rerolling 1s for health gives the same average health increase as taking the average.
Which one is the game balanced around?
But ability score and feat on an ASI is HUGE! cause you're players may be smart and pick feats that come with +1s until they have multiple 20s
Kinda like me, I just don't like saying no to my players.... I should learn...
I also crank up the point allotment because I find that, between the infrequency of ASIs relative to previous editions and the fact that you can't pick a race/class combo that's offtype (Dwarven Bard for example) that starts the game higher than a +2 to be pretty weaksauce and unsatisfying.
I also raise the Stat cap to 22 at level 12 so there's that
Rolling for stats, rerolling 1s on health and starting above level one isn't overpowered at all...
I miss when 4e explicitly stated that rolling stats was "not recommended"
The reason for 4e is very different though. The progression was so tightly leashed that even a +1 to a roll would break the whole game.
a fellow 4E fan, I thought I was alone!
Standard array is better for true RP, anything else is for Power Gamers or MMOs!
4e really, really liked Single Attribute Dependent characters. If you could get a high number in your "main" stat, you were good for most classes and builds. We only rolled stats for one game, and just house-ruled that they could reroll if they didn't get at least one 16+. We got a fighter that started with 15, 16 or 17 in every stat. He was arguably weaker than the characters that got to start with an 18, but ultimately they all just felt fine and half the stats never seemed to matter. With 5e's much gentler progression, bounded accuracy and (only slightly; ffs dex) less SAD-focused design, I would never roll stats. Just seems like it's asking for trouble.
@@dragonmaster613 standard array removes a lot of player creativity, and doesn't work well with some races. Terrible option when it's just one option point buy can do. Just use point buy if you're gonna standard array. Everyone else can have their options of how to make their character and you can use the standard array yourself.
@@dragonmaster613 can't get a 6 with standard array, or an 18. It removes more roleplay options than it adds.
I think the only thing you failed to mention is that point buy allows you to be good at stuff but only at the cost of being bad at other things.
Not only does emphasize the differences between characters and keep the spotlight moving, it encourages you to be more creative.
Some people just ARE better than others and get the god rolls in the genetic lottery.
Rolling is much more organic.
@@tjl4688 perhaps in theory but rarely in practice. Been playing for 15 years now, never seen a group which rolls with 4d6 which doesn’t allow for rerolls.
No one has ever rerolled for when they rolled so well that they were beyond the limits of the party. People only want to reroll when they’re weak. Sure no one wants to be the worst character on the table, but so much for organic.
@@mogalixir so why are we rolling and not just giving people high stats?
If you’re trying to represent that the best of the best adventure so point buy with more points. That way everyone is better.
@@tjl4688 Organic or not doesn't matter. The game's supposed to be fun, and being weak isn't fun for most. I don't want to play a peasant just because it's organic
And that's why you have everyone in the group roll one or two of the dice to make an array. It satisfies both niches, really.
I once min maxed my character with point buy because I wanted my character to be really bad at things.
technically, that's max-mining
Most of my friends hate point buy because there characters can’t be gods
No1 is supposed to be a god at level 1. I hate players that want to take inspiration from a manga or anime series and don’t understand you can’t be a character 500 episodes in at level one lmao.
That’s a bad argument for 2 reasons:
1) unless your cheating your stats should be about equal to point buy on average.
2) You can just increase the cap on point buy to allow them better stats.
Rolling leading to stinger characters is a myth
*their
@@40faith27 So dumb question, why not? Why is it so important that your players start off as weak ass nuggets before having to wait months or longer to finally level up enough to enjoy a teensy bit of power fantasy before you cancel the game because they hit level 14 and you just don't want to run a high level campaign because now the players are OP and the game is boring for you. Level 1 sucks... Like a lot. If you want to insist that players shouldn't build their characters to strong heroes who are exceptional in any way because it doesn't fit their level then just start games at a higher level, we all know statistically the level 1 characters aren't getting the payoff of earning their way to level 20 anyways.
That’s my argument and I stand by it
Good video. Happy to see you feel the same way about point buy as I do.
in one of my parties we did a semi roll.
every person (including the dm) rolled 4d6's and removing the lowest value. that gives us 6 rolls with which we make our characters, all using the same 6 numbers just different shuffle
Oh I like that
Is 4d6 drop the lowest not what everyone does? I'm genuinely lost
@@SynderFGC I think its more that they did it once and then everyone got that number set
@@SynderFGC it's a popular system, not the only one. but the unique thing was not the 4d6-X but that every player rolls once. that everyone has the same 6 rolls
Synder VA nah
An interesting way to roll for stats, have the same stat array for the entire party. My group has done this a couple times and it’s a ton of fun. Though you have opened my eyes to Point Buy which I’ve also done a few times.
2 reasons I avoid point buy
1. It's too weak, the fact that 15 is the limit feels very odd and I can never really get stats I like
2. The character doesn't feel unique and doesn't feel like I've built them even though I've put more effort into it than rolling would
These can both be fixed with a creative variation on point buy but the standard doesn't seem right
At level one I can get a 17 and two 16s. That's actually insane. Or one 17 and one 16 if not playing a half elf. That's plenty at level one to be good at something
@@ThePalePrince presuming you taylored your race to fit optimization. I don't like having to sacrifice the character I want to play to get decent stats not to mention that's presuming you put an 8 in everything else. I'm all for having weaknesses but I like my characters to also have things they're OK at. And if I'm being honest. If you made that many sacrifices a 17 isn't that impressive either.
@@OwenOfElliott you have unreasonable expectations for how strong a level ONE should be don't know what to tell you. I've never felt like I was limited on what I could play. With two plus threes I can still have three average or above average stats with one 8. I could choose to min max and have three epic stats and three meh stats. I've even made a plus 18 stat with a level one to be super badass
@@ThePalePrince then the problem arises when comparing rolled stats to point buy. Most rolled characters I've played with have had at least a 16 in one stat. Though I dislike rolled stats they are what I am most familiar with and what I compare to. It should also be mentioned that overall lower stats doesn't necessarily mean weaker, it often simply means your character's ability is far more dependent on the dice than build. Characters are a lot more fun when they have things that they are consistently good at rather than occasionally good at.
Finally a video that spreads the word of point buy for me. Thank you good sir
i just wish i could point buy up to 16 RAW! even if it costs me 3 points!
Hey Davvy, my groups and I have been doing something a little more fun in the last few games we've played. Everyone in the group rolls their would be stats in order (Str->Dex->Con->etc) and they go into a pool for later on. At the end, we roll a dice for a "Draft order" and take turns picking one score from any stat pool until all are stats are assigned by default or choice. We find that it usually leads to more balanced characters with some scores you'd never think you'd invest in to begin with which gives us at least a little more inspiration when creating characters. I highly recommend giving it a try.
You say that, I say that, but every GOD DAMN TIME I roll for stats instead of doing point-buy. Why? Because I am an idiot and I think that this time it will be different :(
Thats we call gatcha sydrome
Have I ever told you the definition of insanity? :)
I like that you still allow people to use the dices. I personally prefer to roll the stats, i started playing like 2 years ago in 5e and just like the ramdomness, i build a character based on the roll: if it has a high DEX monk, ranger, figter or rouge. If it has high CHA a bard, sorcerer, etc.
But wen i build NPCs i use pointbuying, just to be balance things more easily, and i always ask my players witch one they want to use.
I've always found the argument of Point Buy VS Roll for Stats wierd. Do modern tables force you to play the first set if stats you create? Are players getting pissed that one if there friends lucked out and got a couple 18s? I do not understand what's going on here?
I appreciate this video. I agree with many of its points and even found some new ones in it that I hadn't given thought to. Thanks, Dav.
idk, I like having characters not restricted to racial bonuses so i can have a high strength on a kobold
Increase the max to 16 then, maybe also allow for negatives too.
I actually have a system if any are interested. A character may spend 12 points to go to 16 if they have no racial bonuses in the stat (Costs 3 more than 15). A character may also gain a point by putting a 7 in a stat. Some may use this to minmax, some may do wierd race/class combos, and others might have a low stat for fun, but no matter what I find the players love the expansion of choice.
Get rid of racial modifiers.
*angrily vibrates in Standard Point Array*
Ok, wonderful argument, but I prefer to go with the argument of "rolling dice is fun".
I've always used point buy. I love it haha. Glad you agree davvy! :3
I get where you're coming from, man, but... the randomness is fun. Forces you to get creative. Makes the experience more different from character to character. Uniformity of experience is not my jam. It's not about always being of a comparable power to each other or from game to game, for me, it's about telling a new story every time.
Until you roll a war domain cleric whose highest stat is a 13 with racial bonuses and everything else is 10s and 11s
@@ethancassels210 or worse, roll 8s and 9s
It's a fantasy game. If you need to be "forced" to be creative, you're doing it wrong. If you don't think point buy can be used to tell a different story with every character, you're doing it wrong. The things that make two characters of the same class different should not be their stats. It should be their personality, goals, play style, etc. You can play a bard that's all about healing and support and singing songs, or you can play a mute bard with a broken instrument that only uses debuff spells and makes the enemies ears bleed with how bad they are. Very different play style. Very different experience. But has nothing to do with stats. In fact, stats get in the way of that diversity. If you roll bad stats, your low spell DC will prevent either of those characters from being able to utilize their play style effectively and will cause them to feel useless and fall into the background. Having comparable stats to your allies is almost a prerequisite for being able to make any kind of character or play style work.
To quote another point buy discussion: "Randomness belongs in session, but a single set of rolls determining your character's effectiveness for the entire game is something I hate"
Davvy. You 100% changed my mind. If I was a dm I’d absolutely use point buy and all your points on the subject just made sense... but as a player. Imma try to get them high rolls. If they allow us 4d6 drop the lowest. I rly rly want that 16 or 17, bc picking up feats is fun. You are totally right, but I’m just greedy lmao
Hear me out though: Elite Array.
I'm playing a game right now with Elite Array. I feel like it really let me make the character I wanted, and it's let me stack on feats without having to try and play catch-up to get my stats up to a decent level.
What's Elite Array?
@@misterdayne2792 Elite array is similar to the point buy system except instead of 27 points you effectively get 25 points and they are distributed automatically as a 15 14 13 12 10 and 8 which you can allocate to stats
@@deathknightrevan isn't that 27 points? You just loaded out the standard array
0+2+4+5 +7+9 = 27.
I use an improved version of standard array because I don’t like being maxed at a 17 with racial bonuses. I used to roll until I realized I was always shooting for a specific distribution, so I made that distribution into a stat array.
How to make this into point buy: 32 points, getting a 16 is 3 of them.
my personal opinion: i play d&d to roll dice. so i like rolling for stats
Amen
Thank the good lord davvy the sound is back
I've always done Point by, but more recently as I've searched for ways to simplify the game, I've taken to just letting players set their stats as they want, as long as the total sum of their stat modifiers is +7 before racisl bonuses.
Oooo might have to steal that
Funnily enough, array only is a +5
@@ultralight9625 yeah, I've never played with the standard array though. And Point by can get you +7 easily.
@@caprikiwi5600 takes a bit of minor adjustment, but unless your players are really obsessed with rolling dice for everything, once you get used to it, it really helps speed things up.
I didn't think I'd agree with this video so much. You had me at "it maxes out at 16" but that tangent about rogues and fighters was a really great point
It maxes out at 15.
One variation on rolling I like a lot:
All the players roll stats together and use the same array. (Really easy if you have three or six players, if you have four or five have each roll for one stat and let the DM do the rest)
That way it's still random but also fair.
But then what if there are multiple groups that mix? This could work, but only in isolation
@@irok1 well you would roll new for every campaign you use this in, obviously. I'm not suggesting you make one array to use in all of your games, that defeats the purpose of rolling stats altogether.
Id say "roll and then if it seems unfair, roll again. Your stats shouldnt consist of 4-6 but it shouldnt consist of only 15+ either."
My group gives options for building.
Could either
A. Roll 6d6 seven times droping the lowest number and then placing them where you want.
B. Taking a standard array
Or
C. Point buy.
It allows the players to choose whats most comfortable for them because some don't like how random dice can be
2:37 Just a bit of a nitpick here, the fighter getting so many ABIs is actually a callback to earlier editions where the fighter would routinely get bonus combat feats as they leveled up.
I started out with 5e and point buy, and I love it. The only change I would make, though, is to enable stats below 8. I made a character who was supposed to be really dumb, and it just didn't feel right to give her 8 INT and 9 CHA. To avoid making this unbalanced, I'd say 1. subtracting from a stat that's already 8 or below does not give additional points to use and 2. using all the provided points is not required.
I just use the Standard Array. It makes spitballing characters in my head easier.
Great video. I think the best system is doing anything and then heavily modifying afterwards. Also one thing with point buy, sometimes certain class/race combos can't give you a +3 so your dragonborn cleric can't have amazing wisdom because... dragonborn can't be wise I guess? It's easy to homebrew but it's still kind of dumb
might i suggest, have a dm who knows what their doing and says; "Re roll yours because the dice screwed you" or "Change that one number if you wouldn't mind, for balance." its still balanced, it's still the fun of rolling dice, but the only change is the players respect the game. as well, use a system rather than 4d6 drop lowest. That method is broken as. Such as 4d4+2, and as DM say stats cap at 18 for starting level. With this all the issues with rolling are gone, theirs still the fun of someone having a 6 charisma or 6 strength. In addition point buy heavily favors casters like wizards and sorcerers, specifically at low levels. A Caster like these only needs one high stat to be viable and with point buy you can max out your spell casting modifier and then have 12s in all but one other stat. so whereas a fighter who needs two or three good stats to be viable, the sorcerer would only need the one and the suddenly have no weaknesses while the fighter is force to have at least one weakness to be at all viable.
As a DM, I encourage rolling for stats, because I think it fun to be super good in something and super bad at others (meaning you'll need your party to cover that area for you). BUT I make sure that things are balanced. What I do is a take those that rolled low and give them a free feat (even two, if they rolled pretty low). Balance, but in a different and fun way ;)
That’s exactly why the fighter gets more ASIs than anyone else lol... If you’re making your players overpowered at level one then they have no incentive to care about their stats and will only want magic items and other ways to boost theirs already capped stat. Making players start with standard array or point buy sets a limit that is needed to get players to focus on the game and not their stats.
Thank you for your fun explanation of the point buy system. My DM (or in this case GM) is using the 5e point buy system for our stats and it confused me greatly. Now I may use it for future characters
I still roll stats every time in D&D and most games, it's very fun, sometimes you're Halfthor Bjornsson, sometimes you're Urkle, i think just in WoD games we pointbuy because it's much more powergaming of a setting.
Its just weird to be the Urkle in the same party as the Halfthor.
@@2MeterLP not for most people, you just play to your strengths, not your weaknesses. Einsten wouldn't try to defeat Tyson in a boxing match. Almost all classes in D&D have access magic or magic-like effects. There's a lot of things that make you useful other than the size of your biceps.
Leto And if god has decided he hates you and gives you a 3 in every stat?
“You have no weaknesses, because you’re equally bad at everything!”
@@sineadthomas2024 Did that ever actually happen to you? If i'd roll 24 1's on 24 d6's you bet your ass i'm going to play that character, it's a once in a life time opportunity. Most likely going to make him a Druid. Edit: It makes sense now that i think about it, standard human kid, realizes he's not good at anything, hears stories about people being able to shapeshift into bears and stuff, seeks out a druid circle, learn's to commune with nature, feels accepted and peaceful, lives off the land. Joins an adventuring party now that he learned a few tricks and is not a pushover. Feels a need to protect the weak since he was bullied by other kids in his youth.
@@letopizdetz Wizards of the coast specifically said that rolling for stats is something they dont want for game balance.(bounded acurracy)
You play d&d for power, you are not someone that us fun to play with, you are the very thing wizards of the coast made point buy to destroy.
Have you learnt about game design, have you learnt about balancing, have you heard about enjoyment.
I have learnt about game design, i have read the entairty of every rule and every ability, i have read about design desicions and interviews from wizards of the coast. And you, you are just a righr brained power hungry player. You are "that guy"
This!!! So much this!!!
I was introduced to D&D by Dungeons and Dragons Online, which as an MMO required point buy. It is so easy and it really lets you play what you want, no risk. The only downside I can see is that races that don't give even a +1 to your main stat will hold you back, but I say that's more how bonuses after point buy are given, not point buy's fault.
I only started D&D less than a year ago, and I prefer rolling. I'm certainly not attached to any one system, and I don't mind math, but if you always know the number of points you have to work with, I find you don't get the fun surprises of a character like Nott from CR, a character with a 5 in Charisma. Those little weaknesses just can't be achieved when you know the ins and outs of what your character is going to be. For me, it just adds a lot more personality to my character knowing that, even with a stat total minimum that my group goes by, there will be little quirks which I will have to learn how to role-play.
I feel this video. I will only ever play if the whole table does point buy.
I absolutely hate the situations you mentioned in the beginning. Even worse is when that one guy rolls like four 18 in his stats.
Personally, I actually LOVE playing bad characters. That’s why I love rolling for stats as I tend to roll poorly. I mean, I chuckle along with the DM when I get a nat 1. I’ve rolled a 17 once and that’s the highest I’ve gotten. Nothing is more fun to me than playing the bard with 5 Charisma. But I totally get why people don’t like doing it.
I rolled a human rogue that's strength score was a glorious 4. Character was absolutely worthless in 70% of the dungeon scenarios because she frequently had to be carried, or have someone else carry her equipment. She had a set of travellers clothes, a satchel with some lock picks, a mess kit, and a healer's kit, and used a single dagger that was eventually upgraded to a glorious +1 dagger. That's all she had the entire campaign.
She made up for it with stunning mental stats, being very good at picking locks and finding/disarming traps, and being able to trick guards into thinking the NPC's started all of those bar fights we got into.
It was pretty fun playing what was nearly the weakest character possible.
That's the exact reason I use point buy- I want a terrible stat. Everyone I know does 'roll 4 drop the lowest,' I always wind up with middling to good stats. To me the best characters have 1-2 great stats, 2-3 middling stats, and one TERRIBLE stat. I feel giddy when I roll that 5 for dex. I don't care as much for point buy in the book, my table always brings back the old version of point buy- exactly the same except you can take points out of a stat to put in another. so I can guarantee myself that weak point I enjoy. also has the benefit of not having a player gloat over thier straight 17's and 18's for the next year.
I do a lot of games with kids. Lately, I've been exploring a new system of ability score generation where the players literally get to pick their own base scores (before any racial bonuses) , provided they follow they meet the following criteria:
1. Scores must be between 6 and 18
2. The modifiers for your scores must add up to 1d4+4 (or whatever you think the setting should be set to). 5 would be in line with the PHB standard array, and 6 is the max you can get with 27 pt buy, but you could tweak it if you wanted something more.
3. There must be at least one negative modifier
4. At least three scores must be even.
As wordy as it is, it seems to be easier for a lot of players to understand than the point buy system of escalating costs. But it keeps all players on the same relative playing field, which means no over- or under-powered characters to start.
i just use the standard array, it seems rather consistent and makes sure their isnt a character at the table too op
Eh, I don't know about having one person not be too OP solely based on ability scores
Standard array is one of the outcomes of point buy. Your table can use both to the same effect. (If you know cool but some don’t)
"Imagine doing math or letting fate decide." This roast brought to you by standard array gang.
@@malmasterson3890 haha yeah dude, I've meet some of those. I just like the standard array because then no one starts with two 16's and two 8's basically, plus, I just think it's easier when I'm making characters quickly for people :)
@@leodouskyron5671 that's true, if I remember you can make something like 15, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 with it or something like that, which I was considering adopting but I'm not 100% sure
I actually use a modified point buy rule set for my games. The normal rules of point buy still apply except for one change.
Players can raise the primary stat of their class to 16 if (and only if) their racial stat bonuses do not allow them to reach it normally. The point cost to go from 15 to 16 is 3 (equivalent to the bonus it grants to your rolls which utilize the stat).
I find this breaks up some issues with min maxing where for example a player might want to play a half orc cleric but doesn't want deal with only having a +2 in Wisdom until level 4.
For those curious, the half orc cleric stat spread using this system comes out to:
14/10/14/10/16/10
By comparison a wood elf of the same class using point buy would end up with the exact same stat arrangement (assuming they chose to spread their stats the same way and didn't take a negative in one stat).
The point is this way characters can choose atypical races for a given class without feeling like they're objectively weaker than someone who chose an optimized race/class combo.
Do it the other way. Roll stats, *then* create a concept.
"My character concept is that I have an 18 in CHA and proficiency in deception and stuff. I didn't roll any 18s? Waah!"
vs
"Huh, the sixth set of 3d6 came up 18. I guess my guy has a really commanding presence and a strong personality - usually I just play meathead fighters but I think I'll make him more of a tactician and born warlord."
@@RoninCatholic duuuude you literaly just described how my Ice Genasi (race homebrewed by the DM) Barbarian/Fighter in the current camping im playing was born, i also got a 17 on STR and a 9 on INT which the DM let me turn into 7 in exchange for a feat, is just so fucking fun to roleplay him cuz he's a prodigy in battle and very very good intimidator while outside of it he read books, signs and other stuff very very slowly and is dumb af constantly making convoluted off the wall plans trying to fix social situations that inevitabily end up going go wrong, its just beautiful
I enjoy this... Particularly rolling stats IN ORDER.
The weird thing, my group doesn't do either. We create char concepts, and base on those concepts, assign what would be the appropiate number.
It's weird, but we do this in order to roleplay better. It somehow helps us a lot.
Examples:
- My friend played as a Ranger Drow and was basically Legolas, so he had +4 in DEX. He was ditching out damage after damage, and it gave off the feeling he was actually a damn strong and experienced ranger. And he played the part, always alert, always ready if things went down to fighting.
- I played as an exiled Goblin Fighter. He had -3 STR and -3 DEX, but with +2 CON and +3 INT. His stats were more akin to a mage, but because of his tribe, he wanted to become a warrior and prove himself. So during our adventures, the little guy discovered magic could be used to be a better warrior, so he turned into an Eldricht Knight.
- I had a friend who played as a charismatic Necromancer, who convinced both undead and living to be on his side. His INT was real bad, but his CHA was good.
My point with all of this, find what works for your group and have fun!
So... standard array? Anyone? Just me?
'k
Standard array is just point buy but pre-distributed.
I use standard array when theorizing a character, but, that's about it
So many of my dumb multiclass builds wind up just being standard array after point buy it really just,, works
At the mention of "killing a dragon in your background" i immediatly thought of Shark Tale, where everyone thinks the fish killed a shark and that might be an interesting concept where folk hero background is actually a sham
5e was my introduction to D&D. I always do point buy and havent rolled for health once.
I started that way as well, mainly because friend of mine, who have been playing for decades, for some reason, try to minimize the ammount of rolling or randomness in the game. I was okay with it, but found a discord group that did roll for stats, and we are having just as much fun. All down to personal preference. I just like rolling my dice because I love the clicky clack.
I have rolled for health, even though I'm strongly against rolling for stats. We do reroll 1s on HP tho. I'm not really sure if I prefer standard hp, it's certainly more fair for everyone, but HP isn't that much of a difference (the barbarian will almost always still have a lot of hp and the wizard will still be fragile). Stats is another thing tho, since it can make your character completely useless
@SkillsDND statically yea, but not always. I don't want someone in the party be significantly stronger than another, because it doesn't make for a lot of fun imo (and that's what DnD is about). I understand if you do, just not my cup of tea. At least for a full campaign, maybe a oneshot or smth could be fun
@SkillsDND oh come on that's grossly exaggerated. Yes there is a power difference between casters and martials, and I wish there wasn't, but now you're just being pity. I just said it's not my thing. Enjoy your rpg however you want and I'll do mine how I want okay?
The arguments I struggle to convey, perfectly stated
Bless you man
You roll for stats BEFORE deciding what you want to play!
That way you can be a barbarian with an 18 and two 5 or a fighter with all rownd good stats,
mabye it´s just me, but I think it´s pretty cool to have the dice surprice you, thats why we have dice in the first place.
Agreed. The last/only time I rolled for stats,the spread was just 11s and 12s,but with point buy,I can have 15s or 10s or a 8 or 3 15s with 3 8s,or 3 14s,with 3 10s,or whatever else I might want. And everyone else has the exact same amount of points to spend on whatever they want!
how I roll stats. the matt coville way
4d6d1
reroll anything less than 8
if you dont have a least 2 15s (or greater) reroll the whole stat array
Amen
what if they get 2 18s. Let them be god?
@@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar I don't know this particular method, but if I'm DMing, yes! If the points are put of balance I may let players with slightly lower scores (I don't let the difference get too wide) have more magical items or more starting equipment.
@@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar its a game about having fun. let players have fun
@@Mr_Maiq_The_Liar Having 18's doesn't make them god...
Although I also like the idea of characters not starting out with 18s. Maybe something like, point buy, but with an ability score increase to an ability score not covered by your racial bonuses, something like that, and it would allow characters to swap this ABI for a racial feat at character creation, as well (probably expanded it so that they all get Prodigy and maybe something like 'Versatile: +1 to 1 stat, 1 skill proficiency, and 1 non-skill proficiency like a language or tools or whatnot.
Heck, even doing point buy, but also getting a d6 to roll and add to 1 stat, gives a little randomness, without too much of a gap between unlucky and lucky players.
One thing I like to add to point by is the option to have their lowest stat be a 7 (before racial bonuses) and their highest a 16 (before racial bonuses). Helps provide some more variety.
You can't buy 16. That's enough for ditching the system.
I used to be a passionate defender of rolling for stats as it was a way to enforce characters to be varied and unique from one another. More recently however for online games after seeing the disparity getting worse with Roll20's odd algorithm even with my house rule of "roll 4 reroll 1s and drop the lowest" was not enough to keep it on a fair upcurve. I started trying out stat arrays which worked really well and while I've not done point buy as much I think I'd like to try it more in the future after seeing this video.
The problem is, rolling stats gives you on average higher stats, which everyone wants
The problem is, some character concepts *need* higher than average stats to even exist.
Polkatown Then you can’t count on rolling either because odds are that you’ll fail to reach those numbers. Much much better to convince your DM to do a high powered campaign and use an altered version of an ability score generating system.
Or homebrew to change the requirements for your idea. E.g. ignoring some ability score requirements for multiclassing, or changing what ability something depends on. Really want a Druid+Paladin multiclass? You could maybe ignore needing Str for the multiclass, or even make a Cha-based Druid or Wis-based Paladin.
My favorite method for stats is a method someone developed on Reddit. Get 12 cards with the following numbers: 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6, 4, 4, 4, 3. Draw 2 cards and add them together: that's your stat total. Do it for all 6 stats and boom there you go.
This allows the stats to be decently random but still allows everyone to keep the same stat total. If you want more randomization feel free to use a wider numerical array, as long as the total equals around 75 (statistical average.) You can even draw more cards if you want, drawing 3 from a pile of 18 for example. It's a little weird at first but once you get the hang of it it's the best of both worlds.
I was Anakin Skywalker angry when I saw this. LIAR
In all seriousness, depends on what your players like amirite?
my group started on point buy, then drifted into rolling for stats. Point buy is better for making a balanced character tailored to your character concept, but rolling gets you avengers tier god stats sometimes. My group eventually settled on "Use ether, but your highest stat becomes 18." This solves everything. If you point buy, you have your free +4 to whatever so you can shine just like the lucky rollers, but if you roll you have a buffer to fall back on. Its a boost to point buy and a safety net for rolling
I will retire my character as a farmer until I get perfect stats in all areas
People insist on rolling for stats because it's "old-school" and "how dnd was intended" but don't realise your ability scores actually modified very little originally compared to modern dnd. Just because you had fun playing spin the bottle in high school doesn't mean you should give Russian Roulette a whirl.
Role stats then choose the class that would semi fit for the numbers you rolled.
What my DMs usually let us do and what u do as a DM, is that you roll 2 stat blocks and pick which one you want
*Puts on asbestos underwear*
Gambling is a tax for those who are poor at math.
Begin flame war! 😈
Why would anyone roll for health if taking the fixed amount is just statistically better?
That statement is usually pretty correct, but it's misleading here because when you do the math 4d6 drop lowest gives higher numbers.
According to anydice, the average set for 4d6 is the same as standard array except the highest is 16 (allowing a +4 at level 1) and the lowest is 9. Of course, this wouldn't allow you to do the shitty meme of 15 15 15 8 8 8, but standard array is close to an optimal option to point buy into anyway
@@Vawk20 use more points if you want a super hero campaign, use less if you want gritty.
You just paid the gambler tax by doing a bunch of unnecessary maths.
@@2MeterLP I haven't done that since first edition. If I'm running a heroic campaign everyone gets full hit point. If I'm running a gritty campaign you get half +1.
Being a DM is also being a game designer. But it's one of the things the books almost never cover.
Even if you don't play GURPS, I suggest picking up maybe some of the older editions for cheap, just for the lessons on game design.
@@2MeterLP, the typical rule for rolling stats is to reroll 1's. According to probability, this makes the expected value of the rolled health exactly equal to the average value that you can automatically choose. After a dozen rolls, the results are very similar.
I like rolling stats because of the reasons you named, but also because I feel like it creates an emotional situation early on, while creating a character and also because, well, I like having a chance to get a 20, but I also use a rule I shamelessly copied from a certain famous DM and allow players to reroll if their total amounts to 70 or lower. I don't put a limit on the upper end of the scale, because I feel like having a player with really good stats doesn't hurt the group as much as having players with low stats that really just spend all their time feeling bad.
However, I might try point buy or standart array at some point in the future, because one or two of my players have voiced small discontent with the randomness and I might at least allow them to pick what to use.