The Real Truth About Body Position That Will Surprise You
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- Опубликовано: 10 фев 2025
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Keep in mind, I have a PhD in the fundamentals...I'm really good at doing the minimum skills to corner: vision, throttle, brakes, counter steering and line selection, as this video demonstrates. Body position only becomes relevant when your pace determines you need it and most riders aren't riding quick enough to gain the benefits, they just hang off to "look cool" or for social media.
Also, vision, throttle and line are really all connected and it all starts with the eyes, but I just listed them separately to make it easy to understand. The point is don't think you "need" to hang off the bike or lower your tire pressure in order to ride quick, just focus on the basics, what you use for every corner and become an expert in that.
Finally, the past 3 days have been 70+ degrees at Palomar and the road was clean...obviously if it's cooler outside or you're riding on a crappy road, the pace would drop down big time...but still won't need body position. linktr.ee/GregWidmar
I agree that body position should be adjusted according to riding speed, particularly when cornering, there's no need to overdo it. In my country, road conditions can be quite challenging, so it's important to carefully assess them while riding. Excessive body positioning during cornering can actually be harmful, and safety should always be a priority.
Well i like to challenge that. You say you would be slower in worse conditions. You would be quicker if you hang of the bike in that case. Cause the bike would be more upright . Just playing the devils advocate here. And keep the conversation going😂
did this method/version feel safer than with body-position stuff?
Based on what you say in the video, you never need body position unless you are riding to the absolute limits of your tires.
With that in mind, I suppose you NEVER use body position on the street then?
Hanging off the bike actually is a useful tool when the bike’s suspension is on the stiffer side. Especially knowing public roads have many imperfections that we must anticipate and adjust for. Also the tire size can definitely influence handling of the bike. A wider tire will require more “set up” for a corner than a smaller tire on the same bike.
Great advice. I don't ride fast enough so I never lean off of my bike and even as a beginner i know it's pointless with my easy pace.
Not really... Just try dipping your inside shoulder going into a turn. Not hanging of but turning your upper body slightly to point your shoulders in the direction of the corner. This is also body position changing even if you are not hanging off. It helps the bike turn without needing to put more effort into making the bike turn...
I think the point of this video was you can’t master both body position and fundamentals at the same time. Better to master the fundamentals first then understand how body position is beneficial to that.
Im a new rider, I ride zx6r , all I do is back roads, started practicing the fundamentals, then at some point I started focusing on speed and scaring myself, the other day Im riding in Jamul because that's where I live and ended up behind a BMW like yours , actually thought it was you but it was the white and Blue, any way the guy was going so fast but so smooth , just effortless, no body position or anything , after seeing that it snap me back to just work on the fundamentals and the speed will come.
I mean, trying to drag knee of is fun, I don't ride to be "the most efficient" or to do "the fastest time", when I take the bike out I'm trying to have fun
Everybody today is trying soooo hard to be efficient at everything. Eventho having fun is the most efficient way of living 🙃
Bro, you speakin' my language. I don't care too much about top speed in the straights or minimizing times up the mountain, I just want to go fast and low in the corners. It's the rollercoaster ride I love not the drag race.
I did an experiment yesterday also. I road my ZX4RR on my favorite road with my weight off to the inside of the curves. I found myself using more energy than I needed to. I then road the same road with my Heritage classic and actually leaned the bike and kept my body straight up. It turned in a lot quicker with less energy because the weight of the bike was enough to load of the front tires edge.
I move more in wet to keep the bike upright. Other than the I lean upper body and head into the corners...counter steering does all the work.
Finally someone said it , I have been watching all kind of videos about this but I thought to myself while riding that I don’t really need to move body , I can’t counter steer most of the time and it works just beautiful for streets .
I agree. There isn't need to change body position for a normal to brisk pace. In fact changing body position will often throw you off balance because most riders are not at the skill level or pace to take advantage. Moving your ass around to much is not advised IMO. There are enough other concerns to worry about then adding one more. Just concentrate on the basics as you suggested and enjoy the ride. Loved Palomer mountain. A must ride in Socal. And I always run stock pressure in the tires. The manufacture suggested pressure has been tested for longevity and performance.
Love this video, I can see the speed and how to tackle each turn. The engine sound shows how to adjust the throttle on a certain curve and when to trail break. This is what I need on my skill level. Now I know the safest speed without learning the hard way. Thanks!!!!
When people are working and trying to improve, you can help them without shaming them. There's a better way.
How did he shame people by explaining the obvious?
A few years ago I was abusing my race 250 Ninja on a track day and came up against a very quick rider who had raced at the Isle of Man and was very successful in the Classic race bike scene. He rode a pre-war 350 Velocette - skinny tyres, little bitty drum brake. I happened to pass him as he came out of the pits onto the track. Both bikes had about the same straight line but of course I had better brakes and "supercorsers". He rode in the pre-war style of leaning the bike in underneath him while I was trying to move as much weight as I could to the inside. I could not shake him off, I think he could have passed me if he wanted to. Despite me doing all I could with lean angle (elbows in the grass) I think he was doing a lot better at loading his weight onto the front wheel, which is what the quick guys seem to know how to do. The more weight on the front the tighter the turn and the more you can open the throttle. Additionally, this posture seems much better for the street offering better visibility and control if the bike gets out of shape. If it low sides you are also on top of the bike not under it. Worth some thought.
I would say it is for safety reasons. I think you mentioned that a bikes suspension works best when it is closer to the upright position. So when you are positioning your body, you need less lean angle. So while I think that observation is true, that people do it to look cool, there are definitely some benefits doing it.
There is a bigger safety margin using body positioning when people are not as skilled and experienced as you are. So even though I agree with your opinion about the importance of practice, and learning the fundamentals, I think it is better to do it, if that avoids emergencies.
100% agree with this statement. It is safer to lean over as the contact patch is bigger, easier to brake hard if the bike is more upright and not dump it. And yes, it looks cooler too, but overall its more safe. You don't need motoGP angles on road riding, but just being inside the turn helps keep the bike more upright.
I think the point was setting your priorities right. Better to understand braking and choosing lines than using body position with messed up lines and bad braking technique. If you can’t control the bike, hanging off would just make it worse because now you’re doing 2 things you don’t underatand.
I also thought that isn't it for keeping the bike more upright for reasons other than speed when you are on the street, not track. I don't know how correct it is, but I think that having the bike more up if you hit some surprising stuff on the road ,like sand or whatever, is safer. I never thought it would be because of speed on public roads.
@ It is safer to use more body position and more upright for the bike. But honestly after going out on the canyons, you really must be going really fast to use it. Another thing is if you have good line choices, you don't really need too much body position or lean if you can hit the apex.
If you're scared to lean the bike,why are u riding a bike?
Suspension works better if you can reduce lean angle of the bike. The way that happens is using body position.
Way am I doing it? For the about reason and mostly because is fun and feels good.
Brilliant one Greg. I wanted to ask a question regarding the same in your life Q&A and here you are with a full-on video about tire pressure and grip. Thank you..
I recall Fast Feddie Spencer saying that he never leans off the bike street riding (i think).
XR is such a good bike. Love it
I noticed that you are keeping the revs up in the power band. I mistake I used to make early on was unnecessary upshifts totally upsetting things till I realized how much better things went when I stayed in peak power range and used less braking. Great video to make your point, Good st!
Great truths that I wish that I had heard when I had just started riding anyway before I got hurt last year I was aiming at getting the fundamentals of counter steering which I will get back to when I start up again.👍👍👍👍
Avoiding using bp forces you to take different lines for the same pace.
On the road the only thing i want to move is my head to help initiate a turn as it helps looking into a turn too, counter steering gets me around pretty swiftly and safely. My butt could be glued to the seat.
I rarely change my body position. If anything, I might move my head and torso a little off center if I’m going into a curve a little hot. I can really feel the difference in stability with this minor adjustment. Mostly, it’s about good vision, rolling off the throttle, trail braking, an appropriate amount of lean angle, etc.
I did use body positioning on my (training) track day. My gosh, that day was SO much fun!
I feel like I would have been guilty of trying to get a few gear changes in there, but I'm coming around to running in a lower gear than I normally would and utilising the available rev range better.
I always use counter steering with counter lean
It works perfectly for me.
I think you should only ever do body leaning when you need EXTRA weight to lean the bike A LITTLE BIT more.
A few of us hit the twisties at a decent pace. I have ALWAYS run stock tire pressure on my sports bikes. My buddies always have me shit about it until they saw me right behind them as we rolled at a hefty pace sometimes. They stopped giving me shit lol. I tried lowering pressure for a bit and I noticed I got less mileage out of my tires. Back to stock pressure I went lol. I use SLIGHT body positioning just to keep from being at the edge of the tire. I have about a quarter of an inch “chicken strip” on either side of the rear tire which I love. Let’s me know I’m not over leaning and I can still roll at a fun pace. my buddies use minimal body positioning as well. No sense in hanging off the bike. Feels way too disconnected
Most people leanover because it just looks cool and they do it in motoGP.
Its fun.
Exactly like ofc there's riders who shouldn't be doing it but most of us are out here leaning our bike over cause it's fun nothing more nothing less like sure I could ride easy and nice pace but there's a season for that as well as a season to get that bike leaned over like it was designed to do 🫡
I used to do numerous track days. I find myself leaning even on my bicycle sometimes.
@@travr6 the real fun is putting a 100cc on a pedal bike and leaning it over at 30 plus mph 😂😂 pure insanity
@TheAdawg5 The real fun is finding a huge hill where you can hit 30 workout a motor. Took a bicycle down Deals Gap many times.
Great video.
I think I would have loved to see the cam adjusted up just a bit so that I can see more of the road ahead.
Great time through there though. I’ve only done palomar twice. It’s a tricky one. Especially that downhill section
If you need to hang off while driving on the street, you are probably going too fast. Hang off looks overkill to me in most street situations, but I think from certain speed up it´s OK to move your weight to the inside, so you can help the thing to lean less. More free rubber, just in case a SNAFU situation appears.You know, no need for "dramatic hang off scrapping sliders thing". just "move your weight".
But it´s much more relevant to master the really important stuff, like know how to look good, how calculate your path good, how to brake good... if you do this things good enough, probably you won´t need to hang off at all.
I really envy the roads you get to ride on.
here's the thing ... body position happens as a natural reaction to forces upon the body . You dont turn it off or on . Period
He's talking about hanging off the bike in corners.
Hanging off the bike is a natural reaction to forces on the body? Lol
I'd really like having a telemetry on the side of the screen, with throttle, brake and lean angle in real time, I think that could help a lot of us.
Thanks for the video
Hello, did you kill everyone? There's no one on the road! 😂
You need to make a video like this, but with the camera facing your body, it would be interesting
As always great video and if you know what to listen , great insight, thank you
I tend to use body position much more on wet rainy roads because i think that every extra bit of contact helps grip, and the maximum contact patch occurs when bike is upright. So maybe it's not needed, but when surface is slick i want bike upright as possible!
That's brave of you. Leaning off in wet conditions. I'd much rather slow down and reduce the need to.
Can you make a video where you use circles or arrows to indicate where exactly you're looking..? If seen similar videos where you comment and show with a finger, but I believe just as good of a perspective would be to highlight where you look, WHILE the video is rolling - just like in this video. Thanks 👍
I like the part where you hit the rumble near the end. Also let's raid the beer truck.
When I was a less skilled rider, and was a bit fearful of leaning, there was no thought of my body position off the bike. Then, I take Lee Park's Total Control Advanced Rider Course. I followed a sequence of steps, for proper body position, to really lean over around a 40' circle. Talk about facing your fears! But, the more I practiced the drill, the more fear went down. My takeaway? Proving to myself just how far these bikes can lean. Do I need a hang off body position on the street? Nope. Just as Greg showed, this darn bike of mine will lean over in a neutral position. Now, no fear, just fun!
I’m going to comment here. I ride a ZX6R and in state where there is zero curvy twisty roads. However there is a little county lake just a few minutes away that offer a winding road around the lake with some elevation changes. Posted speed is 20 mph mainly due to campers scattered around the lake. I tend to ride it in 3-4 gear trying to keep noise down. I can carry a 50 mph pace with no hanging off. If I was truly on the gas I could probably pick up the pace a little bit. But most the speed would be in places I could attain 70-100+ mph. It’s a public park/lake so I don’t make an ass of myself. Once I leave the lake, it’s 15 miles on a perfectly straight road home. That’s Kansas for you straight roads for miles and miles. I’ve studied the maps and riding around lakes is about as curvy as it will ever get. Granted some of the lakes have 30-100 mile of shoreline drives. But again it’s a park or residential homes.
wow you are moving fast, there are young people here who should not do this like you now!
I will say this... your head is tracking through the corners very well and if you do that good head movement will make it feel like the body is moving too. But in reality provided the butt is still, there's not that much movement.
If you need to hang off on the street you are going WAY too fast. However, using BP on the street, IMHO, isn't a total idiot move either. BP reduces lean angle, reduced lean angle generally reduces risk and gives you more margin if something goes pear shaped.
I can and do ride with no BP at all on the street. But sometimes I do it, not because I have to but to pull a little lean angle out (for safety) or.. Perhaps not the best answer, but, most of the time I'm doing it on the street is practicing for the track. Just getting comfortable in the right position, getting good reference points on the bike for where I should be contacting and holding on when leaning off.. I'm sure it often looks silly because I'm nowhere near leaned enough to "need" it, but whatever, I find it to be good practice to build and keep the muscle memory.
Well done!
I'll probably be branded as a heretic, but I have a theory that body position does in deed help turn the motorcycle. This proven by letting go of handlebars on the motorcycle (or bicycle) and leaning your body to either side and the bike will turn in that direction (though more dramatically on a bicycle). Not claiming body position cannot be easily overridden by counter steering, but it does have an influence on the path. Just something I've been experimenting with last few months. I'll scooch over on the seat just a little going into the curve (normal everyday intermediate street riding), and the bike just seems a little happier to turn.
Great video, I just bought the Triumph Speed 400 in Knoxville Tennessee. I still getting up early to practice slow speed maneuvers. I put my bike in a storage unit because I don't have a garage. It works out well because not many cars around and there are pretty empty streets in a long road-2-3 miles across the street. I just had minor knee surgery for Osgood Schlatter's and am at home recovering. The weather is great here and will try to get some speed, I have had the bike up to 60 mph in the early mornings and have almost gotten really good on counter steering, there are a few curvy roads nearby and I am still scared and don't know my limits on speed and curves. The dealership is an Indian/Triumph dealership, so many cool retro bikes. Have you ridden the Speed 400? What do you think and if there is another Indian/Triumph near you or stand alone, could you show us a cool test ride on the Indian FTR? I think I watch you on the Triumph Rocket one time...the interstate is close to where I keep my bike, I want to get my Speed 400 up to at least 75 but still scared or curves at high speed. This video helps me a lot. Thanks!
That was an awesome video!
Thanks for posting!
A few questions:
1. I'm not sure, but it looks like you went all the way up in 2nd gear, is that correct?
2. Left curves vs. Right: It seems like your head goes more to the inside on Left curves than Right ones. Is that my imagination, or is it real?
3. Body Position - I'm still a novice. But I shift my butt to the inside sometimes on curves simply because I don't yet know how far the bike can lean before losing grip. This takes away some risk of losing grip. What's wrong with that?
Please do this with insta 360.
Thank you Greg 🙏🏼
I never thought people also lower their tire pressure for the street, even if they're going at a quick pace, I believe you can't heat them up enough to get the most grip out of the tire
I have to take body position to account so I my suspension can work perpendicular to the road as possible because we such sitty garbage roads I constantly have to expect cracks, bumps, potholes and sudden change of surface level in every corner. With such nice wide roads you got there in the US this topic is indeed a much different conversation.
There is a very damning side of this riding style... you have been leaning over the double yellow in every left curve like Michael Jackson.
yeah but doesn't body position on the lean help reduce lean, so in result help reduce risk ? ( not implying you need to move for slow riding like the memes but.. )
yeah but his point was more speed would require more lean hence throwing in body position to reduce the lean needed to take the corner at the same pace. yet most people don’t even ride fast enough to even need that much lean angle to the point where it’s dangerous
You forget one thing. What if i just want to feel like a pro rider. In the little free time i have. Can a man just have some fun and dream a little. Just get a way from my life and be someone else.
This is hypotetical by the way
As long as your honest to yourself why not. Just don't day you're fast or doing it 'cause you need it
you weren’t fast enough on those corners to need any body positioning
But isn't that the point of the video?
You illustrate a good point, you don’t need body position to ride quickly. However is body position not just a way of reducing lean angle and therefore risk? While not necessary for the street is moderate body position a way of increasing the margin for error much in the same way as lane position on corner approach?
you are the BEST....greatings from SRBIJA...
Car coming around the corner 8:15? He's one lucky bastard. I give you that. Until, of course, luck runs out. RIP brother.
What are you talking about????????????
Idiot
@@midas61 Lucky, there was no car in the other lane at 8:15
@@mikeclfsif there was a car coming then he wouldn't have overtake
I like the advice about not having to move around on the bike when you are not at the top top level of a pro racer. But, I really wish you had used a track as your reference or a course made with cones in a parking lot instead of a public 2 way road. Dude, we all look up to you and want to emulate the level of control you have on the bike.
In my case, the thing that prevented me from going and repeating what you just did is that I have ridden enough to know that there’s a good chance that I won’t make it up in one piece if I tried. But a younger less experienced me with a fast bike probably would have gone ahead with it…
For the next video use a track or a parking lot. I can guarantee that it won’t dilute your message at all…and for people who want try out the advice in this video, please do so on in a safe space.
he's a shit rider, your better off finding someone who can ride
Couldn't agree more.
Even though I'm on a V4S and might ride a little quicker than some I definitely don't ride crazily fast. My rear tyre wear is not dissimilar to what you show in this vid so I don't need to crawl all over the bike to get around corners. However there is still much benefit to be gained in positioning yourself "actively" - steering response is significantly enhanced and your body is positioned to maximise braking efficiency compared to when sitting bolt upright. When you find yourself off-line or suddenly need to hit the anchors having your body engaged instead of neutral in the saddle - even if we are just talking about shifting your bum a bit and leaning into the direction you want to go - makes the bike much more responsive. Or maybe it just makes YOU quicker to respond. Or both?
he has fuck all wear what are you talking about...
About speed and body position, I don't think its necessarily true you don't get the benefit of it at slower speeds is it? If you can do a little body position, even not hanging off but just shifting weight, you can keep the bike more upright, have more traction, and be less likely to wash out if you hit something. Even going slow and keeping the bike slightly more upright is going to give you a better chance if you run over something
Thank you
body position is more fun though. we are on the street. don't care about times.
BP is for Instagram riders
Are there any roads in the US with sharp corners? I never see any hairpins, like we have thousands of them in Europe.
How do you like those tires?
Ive had this discussion quite a few times. I never move my butt. People laugh, and i always say... But why? If youre not faster than me, if I don't need to move my ass to keep up the pace, why should i?
I saw you are driving only in the second gear, why are you doing that, have that much benefits?
You are a perfect teacher mate. I was trying a lot as a new rider before, but I felt lots of time slow and unsafe compare to others. After practicing what you say, it made a huge differences. Thanks for explaining everything so well. You are a legend.
6:49 is slow bro… I did this same road in 4:38 on a grom while counter leaning (leaning opposite direction of the turn) every corner
Perfect demonstration. Even in tighter highway twisties (not track corners) myself and other heavy and sport tour riders almost exclusively use neutral body position and stock tire pressures. I don't see the benefit of knee dragging or seat sliding outside of the closed courses, for most riders. I'm sure it's fun though.
What area are you riding in this video
People dont care about going faster or getting better, they just want to look cool. If you watch any production based motorcycle racing, most of those guys and gals are not hanging off like Jorge Martin. They are off center but still well between the handlebars. If they drag knee/elbow it's because of lean angle that the average rider/street bike is not coming anywhere close to. Stop focusing on how you/your bike/your tires look and get faster/better.
Thanks for the adrenaline rush😢
Nothing more annoying than people still fixated on dragging knee likes it’s 2015 when they’ve been riding for less than three years lmao.
But one thing I must say, body positioning can be dependent on the bike’s suspension and the riders weight. With a stiff suspension, it helps to get a better “hold down” of the bike in corners by utilizing body positioning. This helps smoothen out rigid bumps and imperfections on the road.
U use here only front brake?
No comment on BP, but riding that close to--or as it seems in this video--over the double yellow line is not something to promote or demonstrate to newbies! Please stay on your side of the road.
I think the more you lean the body ...the less you lean the bike, so it is safer; not all is about speed.
That is unquestionably true (the more BP you use, the less lean you need for the same radius/speed corner). And that also, of course, gives you more margin, if your in the neutral position at 45 degrees of lean and you suddenly need to turn faster, you might not have much left before you touch down hard parts or the tire gives up. If you're at 40 degrees of lean hanging off, you have at least another 5 degrees before you get into the danger zone.
That said, it is really not necessary on the street at any reasonable pace. I do it mostly for practice, to build the muscle memory for riding on track and the side benefit of pushing a little less lean on the street. But I've literally never, as in 0% of the time, needed BP on the street or had it "save" me from a wreck by giving me more lean angle.
BP on the street is so you have some nice fat chicken strips to show off at bike night! ;)
Mph or kmph?
If it's your bike, use common sense. Don't allow anyone to tell you how to ride it. You want to lean, lean, you want to pillion the ride, do it. It''s your bike your skin and your license,. Always follow speed limits and enjoy the ride with common sense, unless a viper bit you, your mother is dying, in the back seat, or you are a MotoGP rider on a MotoGP race. Common sense will get you to ride another day. Godspeed!
Just watching your ride through and you got your head into the oncoming lane many times on the unsighted left turns??? Do as i say not as i do i see!!!!! Id suggest poor line discipline, come to the UK we have so much traffic you would change pretty quickly.
He's a guy who has read books and picked up some buzz words. He can't ride for shit
Your channel is always informative… love it
Cool Deal
So F9 was right… we are never fast enough on the road to apply track techniques
You certainly SHOULDN'T be going that fast on the street! There are plenty of videos on here of people going fast enough to actually need BP on the street, but it's a really, really bad idea. If you treat the street like a track, yeah, you're going to need BP to make it through the turns. Doesn't make it a good idea!
Why are we doing it ?? I can answer that simple question. It's all about looking cool and its also for personal joy. Simple!!
What a clean run. Great day of practice!
Thanks for the invite
Also valid for trackdays ? (Slow group).
Practice the fundamentals to increase your skills.
Add body position and track tire pressure to get better lap times.
I have the champ u online course and body position is an important topic
It's great being 64 on a sportbike and hearing crap about body position and have someone like you prove it makes no difference on the street GJ
It's easier to develop proper body position when you're learning how to ride than it is to learn to ride without and try and fix bad/no body position. Once you get faster it's so much harder to undo something. Additionally, proper body position allows for the bike to be more upright with less lean angle and therefore is safer. This is really bad advice.
Thanks for speaking to the seemingly endless tire inflation controversy.
Looking at those tyres man.... you should sell your bike😂
Please explain.
@@f.f.s.d.o.a.7294inside joke. Go watch his short about tires and chicken strips
@@f.f.s.d.o.a.7294It's a joke that if you have chicken strips you should sell your bike and get a smaller cc one because "you can't even get rid of the chicken strips"
@ Thanks. I found the short you referenced, which clearly is a joke:
ruclips.net/user/shortszBWbChRxKC0
Then there's this other short that is more serious:
ruclips.net/user/shortsTY1l0qfflH8
@@f.f.s.d.o.a.7294 chicken strips
Very fast run and I can tell you still had lots of margin for safety. I really want to be able to ride Palomar this quickly on my bikes
Let me know when you want the smoke up and down S grade or E grade.
please record, I want to see how shit he is
Okay, I need to change underwear now... please do not try this at home!
i was expecting more speed than that 😂
👍
How sick are you of talking about body position by now?
🙏🇹🇷