I love celebrating and normalizing "not-broken" & "Feels/Plays like [Insert Faction Here]" going forward in AoS. Hopefully the Winter FAQ tames down the Sinister-6 to further bring more of 3.0 in balance. 🤞
Wow you guys actually played several games with the army before making an in depth video on the tome. Great balanced insight, not that my confidence in the book was shaken, but there are so many nurgle players ringing that Doomsday Bell right now, you'd think the book was the worst thing imaginable.
I always like to get at least 2 games in before we do a review if at all possible, as I want to have an informed opinion. It's far from a full view of the army, that takes many games, but it's something to base some opinions on.
While I too am hopeful for a Slaanesh 3.0 book, this book has made me crazy excited for a Nighthaunt 3.0 book. All three tomes so far, while they have a few questionable choices here and there, have really knocked it out of the park and I just can't wait for my spooki bois to get all that spooki!
The dice mentioned early in this episode are Zocchi Dice (pronounced Zah-key, rhymes with pocky, I normally wouldn't care, but it's a dude's name not just a fun word). Named after Lou Zocci who invented many of the non-standard dice shapes and was one of the first producers of non-D6 dice for RPG players in the states. (Game groups in the Wisconsin area had previously been buying up all the stock of numbered polyhedrons marketed to math and science teachers) His company Game Science still produces some of the nicest plastic dice you can get, and if you see him at a game convention in the Midwest make sure stop and say hi. He's a cool, funny, eccentric old man.
Thank you, I actually really apprecaite that correction, I had only read it (I was familiar with the man), but I had never heard it said! Awesome to know.
Its Wednesday its WARHAMMER! 3hr run time, might take a few days to crunch through. Thanks in advance for the premium content I get to chew on every week.
I'm only an hour in! Your insights, which are backed up by actual game play, have been a breath of fresh air with all the negativity buzzing around. I also agree, with Nurgle feeling like Nurgle, and Tzeentch feeling like Tzeentch, I'm excited to see what happens with Khorn and Slaneesh.
I think the Harbinger makes the cut for a couple reasons. If you don't have the points for the LoA, the runner-up for a non-unique mortal general is the Harbinger..... He's got the same 3+ save, 1 less wound, a decent attack profile, and can take artifacts. The important thing to note though is that, yes he has his own built in roar, but it's not a monstrous rampage ability and gets around Hunters of the Heartland
That's an awesome point, Josh, re: his Roar-equivalent getting around Hunters. I need to catalog things we missed or got wrong and have a "Misses & Mistakes" segment in future shows, because clearly we need more segments.
Switching from khorne to Maggotkin right now because i think i may wait the new battletome too long ! And The mortal range is gorgeous. Thanks for the review !
I do think the main place they missed a trick on this book was in making Disease Points more versatile. If you could spend them to debuff enemy units (reduce charge/save, give penalties to hit, reduce objective holding, force monsters to lower brackets, convert them to summoning points that can only be used near that unit, etc.), I think it would feel far more interesting and tactical. Then make it so remaining DPs do mortals on a 5+ in the Battleshock phase, and I think you'd be perfect. I maybe would have gotten rid of the Cycle of Corruption too, because there's *tons* of bookkeeping in this battletome. I also don't understand why GW is so focused on shutting out coalition units now - it'd be really easy to say "this ability applies to Nurgle units, this ability applies to Maggotkin" just to buff those coalition units a bit but keep a cap on abusable abilities. Seems to be all or nothing these days, and that irks me. Allies/Coalition units are also a good way to sell people new armies - "Well, I have a bunch of plague monks already - might as well start a Skaven army."
I think they want factions to have unique feels and give you a reason to play every faction. It feels like they're shitting out coalition but allies got perhaps a bit too permissive and this is reigning it back in and meaning that you have more of a reason to play a unit in the faction it comes from than in another faction. Also it probably increases sales who knows
So two thoughts (maybe with some others sprinkled in). Many Khorne players hate that kind of sacrifice mechanic (though some truly love it, it's super Johnny). The challenge is of course that it would be HUGELY complicated. I mean it would ramp the complexity of playing this tome through the roof, as remembering to use the debuffs and using them correctly would be very, very complicated. That isn't necessarily bad, but it's a challenge. Now, as to the wheel, it's interesting they kept it, I honestly expected it to go. Now, as to why they have to be careful with coalition units. It's a balance challenge in the present and future. Instead of having to balance ~25 units, they have to balance a hundred+. Not just now, but when they make a new Beasts of Chaos tome or a S2D book, they have to be balanced not only in those books but also they have to be careful it doesn't suddenly break something in the Nurgle book.
Really enjoyed this, fella's. The Johnny in me is very excited for this army. Great takes, and thanks for the secret Tom tech... Now, what to use to convert some Nurgle Shards mwahahaha. Have a great vacation, Vince!
Tried to play battle regiment nurgle demons and spammed Gift of Disease starting top of round 1. The mortal wounds eventually racked up over the course of the game and I loved how it truly felt like a slow, creeping, death. Really hoping they keep the gnarlmaw's exponential cp generation though.
I'll be looking forward to your future show on allies and coalition units. Allies in general could use a rethink because they feel so arbitrary in contrast to the lore (looking at GA Death and Nagash keywords vs Arhaon's), and they with coalition units simply give you more ways to play with your toys!
Great show! Quick question: we always talk about how easily shooting can take out foot heroes. Can't you screen them with a screen unit so they can't be seen? (excluding sentinels). Thanks again!
AoS uses true Line of Sight, so if you can see any part of the model, you can shoot it. Since most characters are larger than infantry, it's generally pretty difficult to truly block line of sight to them.
I have a glass half full pitch for the sorcerer coven. Imagine it as a hero with 18 wounds (I think you said they were 6 wounds each?) , but still benefit from Look out Sir, with three rows on a damage chart. At full HP, the hero knows 3 spells, can cast three spells and once per turn gets +3 to a spell casting roll. After 6 wounds, it drops down to two known, two casts, +2 to cast, etc. Also, it counts as 6 models for capturing objectives. All for 360 points!
I should not of watched this....... I have been tempted to start playing Nurgle for a while now as the Grandfather is my favorite Chaos god, but I have 2 other armies I still want to finish.... I am in love with these new rules though, they remind of playing one of my favorite classes in World of Warcraft, the Affliction Warlock, this tanky beast that just holds it's ground while sucking the life from everything around you as it all slowly rots away....... arg I can hear my wallets screams!!
I think Engine of the Gods would be a decent counter with its AOE heal ability. Of course it's a slot machine so not completely reliable but it would help a lot against that chip damage.
2:00 Minutes in... Vince is excited. After watching Rob's doom and gloom show, hopefully this is a nice change of pace. Personally I'm excited to play the new tome this weekend.
Seems like a fun, balanced army that's plays a fair game of warhammer. looks like a great army to roll dice with freinds with even if it won't shake up the competitive scene. Just wish coalition units had more of home in this army since I love the aesthetic of traditional nurgle knights and warriors
I love beasts of Nurgle and Nurglings. Nurglings can tie up units for ages, and have tons of attacks to build disease. They are infiltrators, and they heal, they are great for tying up back field shooters. Listen, you have been touting that this is an army that wants to tie up as many units in combat as possible every single turn. Beasts of Nurgle and Nurglings do that, and they make it stupid easy to do so. Would I pay for beasts? No, I would summon them. Would I pay for Nurglings? Hell yeah, especially since I am playing primarily mortals. I have already seen a batrep with 3 nurgling swarms tying up a one of them rune dudes on the dwarf dino for 3 turns. That alone makes that unit well worth it's points, and the dude playing that army was straight up bad. As to the tree, as written, they are exponential. I agree with you that they will be FAQd though. If they were exponential the army would be absolutely broken.
For 105 points they are worth it solely to put a semi tanky unit into your enemies area for corruption point generation until your army slogs across the board right? I figure the only other way not to lose out on those 3-6 corruption points is to run lord of affliction or spume. And frankly, as enticing as a null deploy is, I don't think losing out on corruption points on turn one is worth it with how expensive mortals are. Not only that though, my own games with them have been ridiculously good. One game had them tie up a 60 man zombie unit for 3 turns, killing almost 20 of them before I could bring in some BKPusgoyles to mop them up. Another game had them tie up a stonehorn for 2 turns, doing 7 wounds to it via disease and a few lucky attacks. My last game had my opponent burn his thunderbolt volley on his longstrikes to annihlate them, and the 5+ ward saves said "2 wounds for you sucka", which they healed that turn, lol. I realize this is just my personal experience with them, but for 105 pts, I will put a unit on the board every game I can. Edit: Also, why is it taking them so long to FAQ the trees?
i'm really interested in starting AoS and doing this army, what would you say is a good way to start with this army what should be the main things i should be looking at?
Today I did a price check. for my maggotkin army and it was less than $700 for over 2k including summonable extras. Probably on the cheaper side for a whole new army
Like hell on wheels. Like a pack of 50's bikers, live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse. Joking aside. They should be a very fast, very glass cannon force. It would be difficult to win, because you will be unable to withstand the punch back, but it would be in character.
@@VinceVenturella sweet. I'm all about the 50s biker gang theme!! Haha. But yes that totally makes sense. I guess we'll have to hope for achieving that in third edition!
Horticulus gives a tree, which is a good value, but I think summoning is better than Vince's assessment. Horticulus is also a locus of fecundity and you want him to be near the beast's of nurgle anyway. Locus of fecundity near a bunch of BoN will be a real problem for many armies. You often should be able to to get the three cont pts when you deploy nurglings in enemy territory, which means a possible easy 7 seven points in the first round. I admit to being biased toward beasts of nurgle on account I own a total of 11 pewter ones from the previous three incarnations of the unit.
After watching I feel like the daemon books should be designed as follows Tzeentch = Spike Slanaash = Johnny Nurgle = Johnny/Timmy Khorne = Timmy I hope we can get there
@@VinceVenturella I’m wondering if we are edging closer to the horde meta with the release of IDK Namarti. The true portent of the horde’s return might be if the Skaven are revealed to be the summer “mystery” book. Although it’s a painter’s nightmare, I could never play my rats without the legions theme.
It's hard to say, when you open the door to other units, the whole thing becomes very hard to balance now and going forward and that alone would either be too little or suddenly broken somehow.
Really good analysis. Thanks guys. Contagion is a cool concept. As a pure Nurgle demon player, i am a bit sad to see Nurglings still not being as good in AOS as in 40k. Why can't they make them battleline?!! I wish we had the 3 GUO battalion back with them battleline. Beside that, the army fit the lore better now but is both over costed and too slow to be competitive imo. It feels like a nerf to demons (which was un -necessary) and a buff to mortals. But w&s i guess.
played a few games against new nurgle and i've gotta say Mortal wound negation is king. like without a well protected Gardus my army probably would've crumbled, every time they got flesh abundance off on a big block of plague bearers it was even more a case of "well these guys arent dying" i need to screen them off my objectives for as long as possible and pull them out of position on their objectives.. I tend to play heavy redeemer stormkeep lists and in both games it felt like we were doing similar things except Nurgle was honestly doing it better in regards to throwing a bucket of mortals. I think on certain battleplans they'll be super tough to play against, power struggle especially will be difficult, i find that if you're not leading by the end of turn 3 of that battleplan you may be a bit out of luck and i dont know how i remove a reinforced squad of plaguebearers with fleshy abundance and a ward save. i also could find no meaningful way of getting enough damage to stick to the GUO, i double fired with 6 raptors and the GUO was almost full health again by the next round
maybe favoured poxes can be good in a bilepiper or a scrivener with arcane tome, their buffs aren't spells and you want then behind your screen unit not in combat
I would like to point out Bloab’s ability every enemy shooting phase and every combat phase. Enemy units within 7”, on a 4+ take a MW and are -1 to hit in that Phase. Huge. Came in handy in my 1 game I have played.
Haha I've only just got back into aos after playing wfb for yrs and I chose maggotkin as my 1st aos army so I'm in this lucky position where I have no knowledge of the old battletome so I'm personally not seeing what most other are seeing.
Nurgle book is odd since they went in a way more complicated direction than SCE/OWC. It has like double the rules level. Certainly could've used some extra proofreading from some of the head-scratching decisions, maybe disease points did get changed last minute. And really, reused acronyms just seems like such an obvious thing to catch.
Yeah, I would say overall, it's still consistent. Yes, there is some more base rules (you aren't wrong there), but they are still much simplified for the base scrolls etc.
community reaction to pink horrors: oh these are awful and terrible for the game community reaction to Plaguebearers: yaaaaasss queen, we do no damage and we love it
Well, the points differential is still there of course, pinks are still 50 wounds for 215 points, as opposed to 40 real wounds/60 effective for 300, so there is definitely a difference. :) - I think with Pink Horrors it was also their ability for a long time to be easily replenished.
The GUO warscroll spell haha. Cast on a 7, if successful, roll a 4+, then roll another 4+ to do 1 MW. Who writes stuff like this. Glad that they nailed the theme better for the book though!
Instead of giving the nurgle keyword to coalition units why not just make the keyword maggotkin? Then they can “play in the same pool” or would that be too overpowered.
It would be a balancing nightmare, especially with traits like faction wide 5+ ward. They could price them differently depending on the faction you take them in and solve the issue that way but it would he a mess when a unit would have like 5-6+ different costs depending on the army. An easy fix would just be to make less powerful faction traits and have more of the power be in the warscrolls but that would require pretty much a complete reboot.
Yeah, the problem is, it opens the door going forward to future broken items as well. Imagine they publish a new Beasts book or a new S2D book, they have to balance everything in that book aginst what happens when you put it in this book, it's a nightmare in the short and long term.
Give the coalition unit the keyword maggotkin and they lose their main keyword such as slaves to darkness for chaos warriors? Or else coalitions units just became less useful.
It’s interesting how everyone is generally positive about the constant mortal wounds chip damage. However, Lord Kroaks chip damage spell had everyone in uproar about it being a NPE. Maybe opinions will be less favourable when they’ve played against Nurgle a few times #justiceforKroak 😂
That comes down to timing. Disease tokens proc very late in the round, so I can still USE my models to play the game before they're chipped away. I don't mind if my stuff dies, just let me do something with it first
The difference is that Kroak had a huge 34" reach and killed every single 4-6 wound hero turn 1. Back in 2.0 there were also a lot fewer ways to heal for most armies so chip was a lot scarier.
@@w4rmachine76 1x Comet and 3x Deliverence deals 4D3 damage to a D3 targets. On average thats 16 wounds spread out over multiple targets, easily killing 2-3 support heroes.
@@umpac123 but Deliverance is a 12 inch range (18 with Balewind) so you have no way of getting it off on the first turn as deployment range in 2.0 was minimum 18 inch. But I guess these comments highlight my point. People feeling bad by the perception of Kroak taking all their models off the board in turn 1 when it could t have been done. Il
Some Slaanesh units cost too mutch even with a good summon. I disagree about your idea of summoning. Slaanesh got a very low win rate in tournaments but they got a very good summon mechanics. I dont think summon brake the game. If they fix Some Slaanesh units ( aechers for ex) slaanesh could be a very fun army to play imo
I mean, it scores very high as something that people feel is NPE, and regardless, the designers clearly think summoning is quite powerful, the reason Slaanesh is so broken right now is all their units are overcosted because they are paying for the summoning (as a point of fact, Daemonettes and Plaguebearers are basically the same price, that really shows the challenge).
The good part of beeing released in the middle / uppermiddle, you dont end up getting a big overcompensating nerf! and usually a small buff instead and end up towards the upper middle if not already. I'd never aim to start a new army if something seems just BROKEN because I expect that to get an overcompensated nerf at some point, might be within 6 months, a year or 1,5 years. But that big nerf change their playstyle so much you might not want to use the units you bought. But that probobly wont happen to the new nurgle book! and more likely to get some small point decreases along the way, so I get to add a cool hero or something small along the way.
Problem is this book did that to me. Lol. I was playing all daemons before. Daemons seem nerfed a bit for me in comparison to mortals. And I have basically no mortal models, so I gotta buy more if I want to play what looks like the best lists
@@teagancombest6049 Daemons probobly got the biggest buff. Pleage bearers went from 1 to 2 wounds each! And do more damage now with diseases. GUO is a decent hammer now rather then pure buff stick! And fairly tanky, but maybe a lil bit overcosted, not that bad though. But yeah, the best lists from what I can see use a mixture if daemons and mortals. My fav list now would be: GUO Orgotth Gutrot 5 Blightkings 5 Blightkings 2 Pusgoyles 20 Pleage bearers Summon Cheap daemon heroes: bilepiper and so on.
@@PannkakaMedSylt plaguebearers do in no way the amount of damage they could before. You could have them on 3+ attacks doing mortals on 6s before. And then also doing mortals when your opponent rolled a 1 to hit them. And they negated 1 rend, were -1 to hit in melee, could go to a 4+/5+ negating 3 rend save. And you could easily fit 60 in a list, and they could still be 2 wounds with Glottkin spell before.
Overall, I agree that you want a middle book to start. If you come out too strong, expect big changes. The point about Mortals vs. demons is very interesting.
@@teagancombest6049 yeah fair enough, if you REALLY went down the hole to buff pleage bearers they had more dmg potential, but they have more dmg potential now without buffs! And tankier. So yeah relative.
The invest you have to commit for more early trees keeps me thinking raw is intented about the tree cps, why else you would ever ever consider to summon a tree for 9 cps? And don't forget all the restrictions. Only wholly within 7, only 1 summon per turn, all you can summon is slow and not killing anything... Even a GUO turn 3 could be too late and u invested a lot to get there. We all agree horti is only tax for tree and even deny us the 1 drop. And a lot of the faster armies csn deny or destroy our trees etc. All the small hints pointing me to the conclusion it's intented ad raw and honestly I don't think it's op and it won't be a very good list which goes all out on trees but that's only my opinion ;)
@@VinceVenturella haha we will see :) Nah no paycheck required. A maggoth lord would be sufficient, they are currently hart to get your hands on :D ;) Keep up the good work, like your channel! Greetings from Germany.
Also the onky coalition units I'm thinking will be good are the cheap ones for filling gaps. Plague Priest still seems very decent we could use Curse nicely with the GUO.
Agree. Everyone will play flybois spam because it's the only viable build. If you don't want to do that there really aren't any options. Plague bearers are hot trash compared to the old version if you run numbers. If you want to play Nurgle demons you have no options that are even remotely good. They took a well balanced book and took a huge shit on it.
I am not pretending, I just completely disagree and I think this is how books should be written. We shouldn't be celebrating the overly good broken books when they come out and happily talking about broken combos and overpowered units, that's celebrating the sinister 6. I think this book has real potential and it's a great book.
@@VinceVenturella can't really see it playing well against the sinister six. Won't be able to touch mega gargs. I'm not going to bother until after the FAQ
I love celebrating and normalizing "not-broken" & "Feels/Plays like [Insert Faction Here]" going forward in AoS. Hopefully the Winter FAQ tames down the Sinister-6 to further bring more of 3.0 in balance. 🤞
100%
I really like that all 3.0 battletomes have mostly nailed the feel of the armies so far. It's making me really hopefull for the future
Totally agree.
Wow you guys actually played several games with the army before making an in depth video on the tome. Great balanced insight, not that my confidence in the book was shaken, but there are so many nurgle players ringing that Doomsday Bell right now, you'd think the book was the worst thing imaginable.
And before that they were all whining that they needed a new book 😂
I always like to get at least 2 games in before we do a review if at all possible, as I want to have an informed opinion. It's far from a full view of the army, that takes many games, but it's something to base some opinions on.
@@VinceVenturella appreciate you and your squad putting in the time and effort. Very sad about Horti, but I'm determined to make him work... somehow
While I too am hopeful for a Slaanesh 3.0 book, this book has made me crazy excited for a Nighthaunt 3.0 book. All three tomes so far, while they have a few questionable choices here and there, have really knocked it out of the park and I just can't wait for my spooki bois to get all that spooki!
I think you are dead on.
@@VinceVenturella Hopefully, we can get some buff on winter update
I'm really interested in the demon nerfs from maggotkin are mirrored in the other chaos books.
The dice mentioned early in this episode are Zocchi Dice (pronounced Zah-key, rhymes with pocky, I normally wouldn't care, but it's a dude's name not just a fun word). Named after Lou Zocci who invented many of the non-standard dice shapes and was one of the first producers of non-D6 dice for RPG players in the states. (Game groups in the Wisconsin area had previously been buying up all the stock of numbered polyhedrons marketed to math and science teachers)
His company Game Science still produces some of the nicest plastic dice you can get, and if you see him at a game convention in the Midwest make sure stop and say hi. He's a cool, funny, eccentric old man.
Thank you, I actually really apprecaite that correction, I had only read it (I was familiar with the man), but I had never heard it said! Awesome to know.
@@VinceVenturella I figured you'd wanna know. I tried really hard not to be the "um actually" guy while also sharing neat information.
Its Wednesday its WARHAMMER! 3hr run time, might take a few days to crunch through. Thanks in advance for the premium content I get to chew on every week.
Yeah, if they keep up with this going forward I really can't wait to see what they do with IDK.
I'm only an hour in! Your insights, which are backed up by actual game play, have been a breath of fresh air with all the negativity buzzing around. I also agree, with Nurgle feeling like Nurgle, and Tzeentch feeling like Tzeentch, I'm excited to see what happens with Khorn and Slaneesh.
So excited to see what happens with Khorne and Slaanesh. :)
“I’ll give you 10 minutes”
Me seeing more than 10 minutes left on the video: starts sweating
We were up against it. :)
I think the Harbinger makes the cut for a couple reasons. If you don't have the points for the LoA, the runner-up for a non-unique mortal general is the Harbinger..... He's got the same 3+ save, 1 less wound, a decent attack profile, and can take artifacts. The important thing to note though is that, yes he has his own built in roar, but it's not a monstrous rampage ability and gets around Hunters of the Heartland
That's an awesome point, Josh, re: his Roar-equivalent getting around Hunters. I need to catalog things we missed or got wrong and have a "Misses & Mistakes" segment in future shows, because clearly we need more segments.
An interesting point on both counts.
Switching from khorne to Maggotkin right now because i think i may wait the new battletome too long ! And The mortal range is gorgeous. Thanks for the review !
We can only hope we get remakes of all of them soon.
I do think the main place they missed a trick on this book was in making Disease Points more versatile. If you could spend them to debuff enemy units (reduce charge/save, give penalties to hit, reduce objective holding, force monsters to lower brackets, convert them to summoning points that can only be used near that unit, etc.), I think it would feel far more interesting and tactical. Then make it so remaining DPs do mortals on a 5+ in the Battleshock phase, and I think you'd be perfect. I maybe would have gotten rid of the Cycle of Corruption too, because there's *tons* of bookkeeping in this battletome.
I also don't understand why GW is so focused on shutting out coalition units now - it'd be really easy to say "this ability applies to Nurgle units, this ability applies to Maggotkin" just to buff those coalition units a bit but keep a cap on abusable abilities. Seems to be all or nothing these days, and that irks me. Allies/Coalition units are also a good way to sell people new armies - "Well, I have a bunch of plague monks already - might as well start a Skaven army."
I think they want factions to have unique feels and give you a reason to play every faction. It feels like they're shitting out coalition but allies got perhaps a bit too permissive and this is reigning it back in and meaning that you have more of a reason to play a unit in the faction it comes from than in another faction. Also it probably increases sales who knows
So two thoughts (maybe with some others sprinkled in).
Many Khorne players hate that kind of sacrifice mechanic (though some truly love it, it's super Johnny). The challenge is of course that it would be HUGELY complicated. I mean it would ramp the complexity of playing this tome through the roof, as remembering to use the debuffs and using them correctly would be very, very complicated. That isn't necessarily bad, but it's a challenge.
Now, as to the wheel, it's interesting they kept it, I honestly expected it to go.
Now, as to why they have to be careful with coalition units. It's a balance challenge in the present and future. Instead of having to balance ~25 units, they have to balance a hundred+. Not just now, but when they make a new Beasts of Chaos tome or a S2D book, they have to be balanced not only in those books but also they have to be careful it doesn't suddenly break something in the Nurgle book.
Really enjoyed this, fella's. The Johnny in me is very excited for this army. Great takes, and thanks for the secret Tom tech... Now, what to use to convert some Nurgle Shards mwahahaha. Have a great vacation, Vince!
Than you and glad it was helpful. :)
Absolutely out of topic:
But I loved how the subtitles interpreted Rotigus into Rodriguez xD
yes I don't know why my subtitles were on :P
I'm calling him that from now on!
Amazing.
This was a good surprise to wake up to an early episode freshly streamed. Enjoy the weekend away!
Thank you, it was a great weekend. :)
Thank you for braving Cathy's wrath for our benefit❤
It was all worth it in the end. :)
I tried the null deployment tactic... failing all charges nighthaunt style :P
Quality. :)
Tried to play battle regiment nurgle demons and spammed Gift of Disease starting top of round 1. The mortal wounds eventually racked up over the course of the game and I loved how it truly felt like a slow, creeping, death.
Really hoping they keep the gnarlmaw's exponential cp generation though.
They won't, 0% chance, my best advice, accept it now. :)
I'll be looking forward to your future show on allies and coalition units. Allies in general could use a rethink because they feel so arbitrary in contrast to the lore (looking at GA Death and Nagash keywords vs Arhaon's), and they with coalition units simply give you more ways to play with your toys!
Yes, it's definitely something to explore in detail.
Great show! Quick question: we always talk about how easily shooting can take out foot heroes. Can't you screen them with a screen unit so they can't be seen? (excluding sentinels). Thanks again!
AoS uses true Line of Sight, so if you can see any part of the model, you can shoot it. Since most characters are larger than infantry, it's generally pretty difficult to truly block line of sight to them.
Nope, as said, since it's true LoS, other models don't really block.
I have a glass half full pitch for the sorcerer coven. Imagine it as a hero with 18 wounds (I think you said they were 6 wounds each?) , but still benefit from Look out Sir, with three rows on a damage chart. At full HP, the hero knows 3 spells, can cast three spells and once per turn gets +3 to a spell casting roll. After 6 wounds, it drops down to two known, two casts, +2 to cast, etc. Also, it counts as 6 models for capturing objectives. All for 360 points!
It's a decent pitch, but I am not sure I would buy that single hero for 360. ;)
Great show, really nice in-depth review! Makes me want to take my SCB I got for Warcry and expand into a full 2k army. What’s one more WIP army 🤷♂️ .
Exactly, it's just one more! ;)
I should not of watched this....... I have been tempted to start playing Nurgle for a while now as the Grandfather is my favorite Chaos god, but I have 2 other armies I still want to finish.... I am in love with these new rules though, they remind of playing one of my favorite classes in World of Warcraft, the Affliction Warlock, this tanky beast that just holds it's ground while sucking the life from everything around you as it all slowly rots away....... arg I can hear my wallets screams!!
It's a great time!
I think Engine of the Gods would be a decent counter with its AOE heal ability. Of course it's a slot machine so not completely reliable but it would help a lot against that chip damage.
It's an interesting example.
2:00 Minutes in... Vince is excited. After watching Rob's doom and gloom show, hopefully this is a nice change of pace. Personally I'm excited to play the new tome this weekend.
Rob? Cynical?? I’m shocked.
I think there are many reasons to be excited about this book.
GUO in LotFP with Fourfold Blade on the Nurglings...Whooooohoooooo
It might end up being a Mount/Crew, but it's funny.
Seems like a fun, balanced army that's plays a fair game of warhammer. looks like a great army to roll dice with freinds with even if it won't shake up the competitive scene. Just wish coalition units had more of home in this army since I love the aesthetic of traditional nurgle knights and warriors
I think that's right on all counts.
I love beasts of Nurgle and Nurglings. Nurglings can tie up units for ages, and have tons of attacks to build disease. They are infiltrators, and they heal, they are great for tying up back field shooters. Listen, you have been touting that this is an army that wants to tie up as many units in combat as possible every single turn. Beasts of Nurgle and Nurglings do that, and they make it stupid easy to do so. Would I pay for beasts? No, I would summon them. Would I pay for Nurglings? Hell yeah, especially since I am playing primarily mortals. I have already seen a batrep with 3 nurgling swarms tying up a one of them rune dudes on the dwarf dino for 3 turns. That alone makes that unit well worth it's points, and the dude playing that army was straight up bad.
As to the tree, as written, they are exponential. I agree with you that they will be FAQd though. If they were exponential the army would be absolutely broken.
I may be coming round on Nurglings. :)
For 105 points they are worth it solely to put a semi tanky unit into your enemies area for corruption point generation until your army slogs across the board right? I figure the only other way not to lose out on those 3-6 corruption points is to run lord of affliction or spume. And frankly, as enticing as a null deploy is, I don't think losing out on corruption points on turn one is worth it with how expensive mortals are.
Not only that though, my own games with them have been ridiculously good. One game had them tie up a 60 man zombie unit for 3 turns, killing almost 20 of them before I could bring in some BKPusgoyles to mop them up. Another game had them tie up a stonehorn for 2 turns, doing 7 wounds to it via disease and a few lucky attacks. My last game had my opponent burn his thunderbolt volley on his longstrikes to annihlate them, and the 5+ ward saves said "2 wounds for you sucka", which they healed that turn, lol. I realize this is just my personal experience with them, but for 105 pts, I will put a unit on the board every game I can.
Edit: Also, why is it taking them so long to FAQ the trees?
Do you have a video where explain all the meta terms? For example alpha bunkering etc
I think we have explained it amongst episodes, but we've never done a whole show about it, worth putting it on the list for a future show.
Is Gift of Disease spell a better early disease spread rather than the unlimited range of Plague Squall?? Plague Squalls roll mechanic what hurts it?
Yep, pretty much.
Y’all missed the real pick of the week; James Workshops holiday video where he trolls the crap outta Eldar players!
That was very fun. :)
The New Nurgle wheel seems a bit like the Bad Moon, but much better.
Similar but MUCH better.
i'm really interested in starting AoS and doing this army, what would you say is a good way to start with this army what should be the main things i should be looking at?
Honesrtly, I think their new Vanguard box is a great place to start. It's full of stuff you want.
Today I did a price check. for my maggotkin army and it was less than $700 for over 2k including summonable extras. Probably on the cheaper side for a whole new army
Khorne I'm more familiar with, but Vince, how would you summarize what you think Slaanesh should feel like on the table?
Like hell on wheels. Like a pack of 50's bikers, live fast, die young, leave a good looking corpse. Joking aside. They should be a very fast, very glass cannon force. It would be difficult to win, because you will be unable to withstand the punch back, but it would be in character.
@@VinceVenturella sweet. I'm all about the 50s biker gang theme!! Haha. But yes that totally makes sense. I guess we'll have to hope for achieving that in third edition!
DUUUUUDE! CLOSE AS HECK TO 100K! well done! Yes-yes! FTGHR!
Still a little while to go, but we're pushing. :)
@@VinceVenturella hey man. You're content says it all: Consistency leads to growth. Keep it up!
Horticulus gives a tree, which is a good value, but I think summoning is better than Vince's assessment. Horticulus is also a locus of fecundity and you want him to be near the beast's of nurgle anyway. Locus of fecundity near a bunch of BoN will be a real problem for many armies. You often should be able to to get the three cont pts when you deploy nurglings in enemy territory, which means a possible easy 7 seven points in the first round. I admit to being biased toward beasts of nurgle on account I own a total of 11 pewter ones from the previous three incarnations of the unit.
11!!! You are definitely in on the Beasts, I really hope that you are right honestly.
Vince, you must be quite busy these days but any chance that the PMP Nov review will be uploaded any time soon?
I think I am going to do both at once, it just got away from me this month.
@@VinceVenturella Ok, Christmas gift it is then... 😆 Thanks for responding, it's like waiting for Dragon deliveries for me...
After watching I feel like the daemon books should be designed as follows
Tzeentch = Spike
Slanaash = Johnny
Nurgle = Johnny/Timmy
Khorne = Timmy
I hope we can get there
"Johnny/Timmy"
So Jimmy then I'd say?
I know for my personal tastes, I'd rather Slaanesh be Johnny/Timmy as well. ;)
Depending upon your opponent, I still think 10 man blightkings are very potent with relentless attackers.
Agreed, they will be stronger if the meta moves more horde as well.
@@VinceVenturella I’m wondering if we are edging closer to the horde meta with the release of IDK Namarti. The true portent of the horde’s return might be if the Skaven are revealed to be the summer “mystery” book. Although it’s a painter’s nightmare, I could never play my rats without the legions theme.
If disease applied to just Nurgle instead of Maggotkin would that make coalition units worth considering?
If that was the only ability they gained? No, not really.
It's hard to say, when you open the door to other units, the whole thing becomes very hard to balance now and going forward and that alone would either be too little or suddenly broken somehow.
Really good analysis. Thanks guys.
Contagion is a cool concept. As a pure Nurgle demon player, i am a bit sad to see Nurglings still not being as good in AOS as in 40k. Why can't they make them battleline?!! I wish we had the 3 GUO battalion back with them battleline.
Beside that, the army fit the lore better now but is both over costed and too slow to be competitive imo. It feels like a nerf to demons (which was un -necessary) and a buff to mortals. But w&s i guess.
Wait and see is usually my motto. :)
played a few games against new nurgle and i've gotta say Mortal wound negation is king. like without a well protected Gardus my army probably would've crumbled, every time they got flesh abundance off on a big block of plague bearers it was even more a case of "well these guys arent dying" i need to screen them off my objectives for as long as possible and pull them out of position on their objectives.. I tend to play heavy redeemer stormkeep lists and in both games it felt like we were doing similar things except Nurgle was honestly doing it better in regards to throwing a bucket of mortals. I think on certain battleplans they'll be super tough to play against, power struggle especially will be difficult, i find that if you're not leading by the end of turn 3 of that battleplan you may be a bit out of luck and i dont know how i remove a reinforced squad of plaguebearers with fleshy abundance and a ward save.
i also could find no meaningful way of getting enough damage to stick to the GUO, i double fired with 6 raptors and the GUO was almost full health again by the next round
THis all sounds right to me and matches my experience.
Thanks
No problem
maybe favoured poxes can be good in a bilepiper or a scrivener with arcane tome, their buffs aren't spells and you want then behind your screen unit not in combat
Interesting idea, I like that!
I would like to point out Bloab’s ability every enemy shooting phase and every combat phase. Enemy units within 7”, on a 4+ take a MW and are -1 to hit in that Phase. Huge. Came in handy in my 1 game I have played.
Oh yeah, he has a very powerful spell.
Haha I've only just got back into aos after playing wfb for yrs and I chose maggotkin as my 1st aos army so I'm in this lucky position where I have no knowledge of the old battletome so I'm personally not seeing what most other are seeing.
I think it's simple negativity bias. :)
Is there ever a world in which you would want to run double Lord of Afflictions?
I think one is probably max, but I'd have to think on it. Maybe, if you want to go full null deploy with air force, that could be a reason.
My question would you give him the incubatch thingie
Nurgle book is odd since they went in a way more complicated direction than SCE/OWC. It has like double the rules level.
Certainly could've used some extra proofreading from some of the head-scratching decisions, maybe disease points did get changed last minute. And really, reused acronyms just seems like such an obvious thing to catch.
Yeah, I would say overall, it's still consistent. Yes, there is some more base rules (you aren't wrong there), but they are still much simplified for the base scrolls etc.
What? No hobby time? How will we know what Tyler painted this week?!!! 🤣🧡
Yeah, we'll have to catch up with him in the following week. ;)
community reaction to pink horrors: oh these are awful and terrible for the game
community reaction to Plaguebearers: yaaaaasss queen, we do no damage and we love it
Well, the points differential is still there of course, pinks are still 50 wounds for 215 points, as opposed to 40 real wounds/60 effective for 300, so there is definitely a difference. :) - I think with Pink Horrors it was also their ability for a long time to be easily replenished.
I googled "choochi dice"... Thanks a lot! (It's aperently slang for a womens virgina?)
Zocchi Dice. ;)
Where does it say Beasts of Nurgle are 2 models each?
I think we were referring to them counting as 2 models each when contesting an objective, since they meet the threshold of 5 Wounds or more.
Correct, as tyler said. :)
I dont get what the misunderstanding is over the Gnarlmaws. It seems really clearly worded to me. What are people thinking its supposed to mean?
Because every Gnarlmaw would gain the every gnarlmaw thing and so they would be exponential (2 = 4 CP, 3 = 9 CP), it's silly.
@@VinceVenturella I don’t even follow what you’re saying tbh, it really sounds like people are looking for meaning that isn’t there.
Cant do tokens and mortals you have to pick the ability that triggers on the 6
Sloppity’s mortal wound ability procs on the wound roll now.
Correct, it's on the wound roll now, so it's not conflicting. :)
I didn't come for the doggies but I'm really glad I stay for them 🤣
There is always a chance of doggies. :)
The GUO warscroll spell haha. Cast on a 7, if successful, roll a 4+, then roll another 4+ to do 1 MW. Who writes stuff like this. Glad that they nailed the theme better for the book though!
Yeah, that's a bad spell, GUO is still good, but that spell is bad.
Video starts... We're going to do this in 2 hours and 30 minutes!
Look at video duration... 2:58:33.... You tried.
I'd call that a win. :-)
I mean, by our standards, we did it. :)
“I have a limited amount of time my wife and I are going away…”
…Three…hours…laterrrr…
Loved the show thanks as always!
I amde it out alive. ;)
Instead of giving the nurgle keyword to coalition units why not just make the keyword maggotkin? Then they can “play in the same pool” or would that be too overpowered.
It would be a balancing nightmare, especially with traits like faction wide 5+ ward. They could price them differently depending on the faction you take them in and solve the issue that way but it would he a mess when a unit would have like 5-6+ different costs depending on the army. An easy fix would just be to make less powerful faction traits and have more of the power be in the warscrolls but that would require pretty much a complete reboot.
Yeah, the problem is, it opens the door going forward to future broken items as well. Imagine they publish a new Beasts book or a new S2D book, they have to balance everything in that book aginst what happens when you put it in this book, it's a nightmare in the short and long term.
Give the coalition unit the keyword maggotkin and they lose their main keyword such as slaves to darkness for chaos warriors? Or else coalitions units just became less useful.
It’s interesting how everyone is generally positive about the constant mortal wounds chip damage. However, Lord Kroaks chip damage spell had everyone in uproar about it being a NPE. Maybe opinions will be less favourable when they’ve played against Nurgle a few times #justiceforKroak 😂
That comes down to timing. Disease tokens proc very late in the round, so I can still USE my models to play the game before they're chipped away. I don't mind if my stuff dies, just let me do something with it first
The difference is that Kroak had a huge 34" reach and killed every single 4-6 wound hero turn 1. Back in 2.0 there were also a lot fewer ways to heal for most armies so chip was a lot scarier.
@@umpac123 how is that possible when the maximum damage that spell could do was 3 damage per unit with the average actually being 2?
@@w4rmachine76 1x Comet and 3x Deliverence deals 4D3 damage to a D3 targets. On average thats 16 wounds spread out over multiple targets, easily killing 2-3 support heroes.
@@umpac123 but Deliverance is a 12 inch range (18 with Balewind) so you have no way of getting it off on the first turn as deployment range in 2.0 was minimum 18 inch. But I guess these comments highlight my point. People feeling bad by the perception of Kroak taking all their models off the board in turn 1 when it could t have been done. Il
Love how Vince says they have to speed up and then talks for 3 mins straight 🤣
Sounds like me.
Some Slaanesh units cost too mutch even with a good summon. I disagree about your idea of summoning. Slaanesh got a very low win rate in tournaments but they got a very good summon mechanics. I dont think summon brake the game. If they fix Some Slaanesh units ( aechers for ex) slaanesh could be a very fun army to play imo
I mean, it scores very high as something that people feel is NPE, and regardless, the designers clearly think summoning is quite powerful, the reason Slaanesh is so broken right now is all their units are overcosted because they are paying for the summoning (as a point of fact, Daemonettes and Plaguebearers are basically the same price, that really shows the challenge).
Kinda sucks that the maggoth lords are good because they are pretty difficult to get your hands on.
But I am glad they are finally good. :)
Glottkin is on a 130??? My model came with a 160... I already built and painted him and everything...
Damn :( Yeah both the basing guide and GW's online production description has it at 130mm.
@@TylerEmerson Terrible. I'll have to find a 130 and rebase him and I did so much work :(
I was confused as well, don't feel bad.
Did a test game with him today before I rebase him. Blightkrieg is actually busted even with the extra base size lol.
The good part of beeing released in the middle / uppermiddle, you dont end up getting a big overcompensating nerf! and usually a small buff instead and end up towards the upper middle if not already.
I'd never aim to start a new army if something seems just BROKEN because I expect that to get an overcompensated nerf at some point, might be within 6 months, a year or 1,5 years.
But that big nerf change their playstyle so much you might not want to use the units you bought.
But that probobly wont happen to the new nurgle book! and more likely to get some small point decreases along the way, so I get to add a cool hero or something small along the way.
Problem is this book did that to me. Lol. I was playing all daemons before. Daemons seem nerfed a bit for me in comparison to mortals. And I have basically no mortal models, so I gotta buy more if I want to play what looks like the best lists
@@teagancombest6049 Daemons probobly got the biggest buff.
Pleage bearers went from 1 to 2 wounds each! And do more damage now with diseases.
GUO is a decent hammer now rather then pure buff stick! And fairly tanky, but maybe a lil bit overcosted, not that bad though.
But yeah, the best lists from what I can see use a mixture if daemons and mortals.
My fav list now would be:
GUO
Orgotth
Gutrot
5 Blightkings
5 Blightkings
2 Pusgoyles
20 Pleage bearers
Summon Cheap daemon heroes: bilepiper and so on.
@@PannkakaMedSylt plaguebearers do in no way the amount of damage they could before. You could have them on 3+ attacks doing mortals on 6s before. And then also doing mortals when your opponent rolled a 1 to hit them. And they negated 1 rend, were -1 to hit in melee, could go to a 4+/5+ negating 3 rend save. And you could easily fit 60 in a list, and they could still be 2 wounds with Glottkin spell before.
Overall, I agree that you want a middle book to start. If you come out too strong, expect big changes. The point about Mortals vs. demons is very interesting.
@@teagancombest6049 yeah fair enough, if you REALLY went down the hole to buff pleage bearers they had more dmg potential, but they have more dmg potential now without buffs! And tankier.
So yeah relative.
The invest you have to commit for more early trees keeps me thinking raw is intented about the tree cps, why else you would ever ever consider to summon a tree for 9 cps? And don't forget all the restrictions. Only wholly within 7, only 1 summon per turn, all you can summon is slow and not killing anything... Even a GUO turn 3 could be too late and u invested a lot to get there.
We all agree horti is only tax for tree and even deny us the 1 drop.
And a lot of the faster armies csn deny or destroy our trees etc.
All the small hints pointing me to the conclusion it's intented ad raw and honestly I don't think it's op and it won't be a very good list which goes all out on trees but that's only my opinion ;)
It won't be multiplicative, I would bet a paycheck on it. They don't write rules like that. I get why people want it, but it's not going to happen. :)
@@VinceVenturella haha we will see :)
Nah no paycheck required.
A maggoth lord would be sufficient, they are currently hart to get your hands on :D ;)
Keep up the good work, like your channel!
Greetings from Germany.
The editing in this book was better but who let Noxious Nexus through? It literally does nothing? Has to be an editing error right?
Also the onky coalition units I'm thinking will be good are the cheap ones for filling gaps. Plague Priest still seems very decent we could use Curse nicely with the GUO.
Yep, compeltely an editing error.
.
:)
Lets not pretend this book is not absolute bin teir
Agree. Everyone will play flybois spam because it's the only viable build. If you don't want to do that there really aren't any options.
Plague bearers are hot trash compared to the old version if you run numbers.
If you want to play Nurgle demons you have no options that are even remotely good.
They took a well balanced book and took a huge shit on it.
I am not pretending, I just completely disagree and I think this is how books should be written. We shouldn't be celebrating the overly good broken books when they come out and happily talking about broken combos and overpowered units, that's celebrating the sinister 6. I think this book has real potential and it's a great book.
@@VinceVenturella can't really see it playing well against the sinister six. Won't be able to touch mega gargs. I'm not going to bother until after the FAQ