I was at Le Mans in 1994 to see these cars clean up, it was a scorching hot weekend and great to see these iconic cars in action. Heartbreaking for Irvine and Toyota though.
@@R4M_Tommy and just when they started getting better , its then that Audi and Porsche drops out. It was always due to some technical issues near the end of the race that causes them to lose, but they managed to up their durability in the end.
@@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo To each their own dilemma I guess , right ? Plus its not like Toyota had lots of expertise in making high performance cars, like Porsche/Audi/Mercedes and such. They were known to make reliable I4/I6/V6 mostly, and cars for the mass.
Roughly 15 years ago I was passenger in a Dauer 962 Road Car. That was still a mind blowing car at that time. 10 Minutes of fear to die on a tree every next moment.
The '94 Dauers are probably my favorite 962s visually. Everything from the body work and livery to the gold spoked/chrome rimed wheels come together to make as sleek a package possible 962. They looked less like a Group C machine, but more of a modern closed cockpit prototype of the era. The '94 and '95 races were like the Wild West compared the air tight restrictions of recent years.
I've seen some of the IMSA 962s at historic events. You can see subtle changes in them through the years, either done by Porsche or privateers. They're absolutely bonkers in all the best ways
I was fortunate enough to not only watch the 962C at Watkins Glen at the Continental in the 80s, but was privileged to sit in Derek Bell's Lowenbrau Special. Imagine if IMSA has BoP back then.
The Group C cars were by far the most attractive looking in their low slung raked body designs with a smooth uncluttered front ends and low slung blended rear wing which were the results of a simpler time in regards to aerodynamics as apposed to today’s modern computer designed aero body work with blunt bulbuls front ends and a myriad of gangly aero appendages.
I’d love to see a the top Le Mans category be no rules other than the cars have to be road legal, and an arbitrary amount of cars exactly the same have to be sold to customers. Le Mans would be a good candidate for such a class as efficiency and reliability is as important as speed.
Those rules... that was, minus the roadgoing requirement, group C... minimum and maximum dimensions for the body, some restriction on ground effect design, also... here's x amount of fuel for 1000kms or for 24 hours... what you burn it in, that's your affair.... It worked well until the 3.5's were brought in.
Toyota was planning on selling a version of the GR010 for the road, but after one caught on fire in August at Fuji during a test , they’ve reportedly cancelled it.
I remember in 1994 leading up to Le Mans, Car Magazine in South Africa had an article on the road-legal Dauer Porsche 962 - it looked stunning on black BBS wheels.
Toyota Group C gearboxes... Hobbled the TS010 program from start to finish... I did read somewhere that no TS010 gearbox managed to last more than 16 hours without serious failure.... Also... when Toyota and Nissan ran in what became Category 2 C1.... Proper full caffeine turbocharged C1 before the 3.5l era... They were about 25% over the allowed fuel consumption when producing competitive power, not good in a fuel consumption formula. Powerful as all hell, and always in the hunt for pole where fuel consumption wasn't an issue, not so much for the race. All of which put them in a similar position to the very rapid, but ultimately underperforming Lancia LC2 program...
The Lancia LC2 story was at the same time hilarious and tragic. Hilarious because they kept turning up the power to qualify in front of the Porsche's and tragic because that meant the Ferrari V-8 turbo-engines lasted even less rounds. It never stopped to amaze me how the Italians couldn't figure out a way to make that car competitive, especially when you look at their success in rallying.
@@tjroelsma Not just lack of boost knob discipline... There were also pitstop issues that resulted in odd occurrences such as an LC2 rolling in, 4 tyres removed, 4 tyres put on, the car rolling out, and then the moment that the team realise that the four freshly "removed" tyres still have stickers on the tread... Fuel tanks being drained by excessive application of boost, and the general carnage that resulted from employing De Cesaris... A man of whom Guy Ligier said in the aftermath of yet more carnage.... "I can no longer afford the services of this young man". The LC2 was an amazingly quick car that suffered from poor team management, and frankly, had someone like the Kremers, Joest or Lloyd run an LC2 rather than Porsches, I reckon you'd have seen regular wins, and embarrassment for the Lancia works team.
@@andyenderby2305 The Italian run team may have made their share of mistakes and then some, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the LC2 was inherently unreliable. Lancia tried qualifying with lower boost settings to spare the engines, but then found that even then the engines would fail in a 6 hour race. I don't know what their problems with the chassis was, but Lancia had to run on higher power settings than Porsche just to keep up, let alone try to win a race. I think it's safe to conclude that the whole of Lancia's effort in group C was one big disaster.
The Porsche 962 was an excellent car, it took years of development for the other manufacturers to beat them, and the Brun team nearly finished 2nd at Le Mans in 1990, fighting with the Jaguars before an engine failure with 15 minutes to go. It's amazing how many Group C cars continued to compete beyond the end of the Group C era. The Jaguar XJR-14 was turned into Porsche's WSC95 (I think it raced as the TWR WSC95 when Porsche pulled the plug on running the project themselves) that won with Joest Racing in 96 and 97 and Lola's T92/10 was turned into the Ascari A410 that was very nearly as fast as Audi's R8 in 2001.
Yay - Always loved this story, a classic example of motor sport lateral thinking. My memory is slightly hazy - but I'm sure I read stories about one or two German tuning companies modifying 962s into road legal form long before the 94 Le Mans program, so there was some precedent for this.
Porsche themselves tried but failed on german mot. Dauer, DP, Schuppan and Koenig + this weird Derek Bell Edition are the street legal ones that come to my mind.
@@reneengelke3218 yup. The Koenig C62 is one of my all time favorite cars. It was the first 962 conversation I saw, still remember the magazine article. It’s probably the crudest of all the conversations, so it’s a beast. That car, in yellow, on a street blew my mind dreaming about driving it.
No matter the subject matter, your stories fascinate me. The only problem is the feeling of emptiness when they're over. Thanks for yet another great video!
The thing I love about Aiden is the fact that while I don't always 100% agree with his opinions, they are presented in such a way that I can completely see where he is coming from. It's like a positive discussion gets triggered in my head. Keep up the great work Aiden!
10:04 Jeff Krosnoff died two years later during the 1996 Molson Indy Toronto Grand Prix (CART.) Krosnoff, Irvine and Ratzenberger met while competing in Japanese Formula 3000.
Another good one Aidan, Thanks... Loved the 956/962 eras All of em Reinhold Jest, Brun Motorsport, Fitzpatrick, Kremer & the factory... until they didn't. Glad to see the old girl had one more 24 hrs in her/him... Guess this car ended up some sort of SissGen...Sure was still fast.
I’d love to see you do an issue on the end of Group C in Australia. We had Falcons, Commodores, Bluebirds, RX7s, Camaros and 635s and the politics of what you were allowed to do to them to make them competitive will keep you very busy. Great racing though
@@R4M_Tommy The GTR was banned the same way the Mazda 787B was banned. It wasn't, Group A just died due to lack of interest. If it died during the Ford Sierra's era or the BMW M3's era, people would be jerking off to those cars.
Thoroughly enjoyed this video. Only became aware of the topic during Chris Harris’s recent podcast with Jost Capito on Collecting Cars. Look forward to binging a heap of these vids!
Started this as something to amuse me while eating. It ended up keeping me listening despite beeing done eating 6min into it and I stayed until the end of it 👍😎
Jost Capito, who was running Porsche Racing at the time, said on the Collecting Cars podcast they didn't even use a Dauer in the Le Mans race. They used the Dauer as proof that it had been homologated, but then just used their own Group C car in the actual race, albeit de-restricted to GT1 regs as you say. Not the first time the race car has been built first and then the road car made from it for homologation, but definitely a loophole rare circumstance in the case of the 962 group C appearing in GT1.
There's 2 type of engine that Toyota and Sard turner put on MC8. The MC8 Road version has a 1UZ and been sold to the owner, the recent japanese owner todays bought that same MC8 for 30k U$D and it has no idea that the car he bought was the rarest of the world until he found out only 1 road car produce. The Race car version on other hand the MC8-R use the same twin turbo V8 engine from a Group C Toyota.
no thats a entirely different gt1 car the SARD. this toyota was the 94c-v. a direct successor to the group c line of toyota's but with more weight, no roof and much reduced power
Thanks for including a pic of the Paragon Porsche, I'd forgotten Paragon was a thing! Ugh edited to give homage to the Labre Competition Viper you showed a pic of. Absolute filth.
Now I want to be clear, my specs don't have rose tinted lenses. Of course we still see innovation breeding controversy *cough* Ferrari F1 engine, Mercedes DAS *cough* - but as a general rule, the rule books are getting more specific, and there are less options for one or two teams to see something in the rules that creates these little runaway car situations. I've got my fingers crossed that somebody will have something with the upcoming F1 rule changes. I know a lot of people think that there is going to be a grid of virtually identical cars, but that is nonsense. No matter what trick bits teams come up with however, we are not going to see innovation on a par with quad front wheels, wings on stilts etc. Sure there is a little bit of nostalgia going on here, but there was fun to having a grid with some really wild solutions. I think the modern cars look great, halo and all (I felt like a bit of an outsider when that came in because I liked how it looked on the cars). But I'd embrace the idea of somebody turning up with four wheel steering (yes, I was the guy that was disappointed the FIA said get rid of DAS, rather than telling all the other teams to catch up or shut up), or wings on stilts to try to get around the dirty air problem (yes I know the new rules will help). I guess, I'd just like to see a new series that kind of embraces a "Run what you brung" philosophy, that lets the designers and engineers have their minds run wild.
@@damionlee7658 Yeah F1 needs to get back to a more open formula. Get rid of the hybrids, keep the fuel limit and no refueling. Make engine capacity open, number of cylinders open, no limit on revs, get the cars back to being smaller and lighter, keep no driver aids and no active aero or suspension. DAS was innovative for sure and totally within the rules at the time.. They dont need to be ultimately faster, just freer.
I watched this race as a kid in England with my Dad after all what happened in F1 just over a month ago I think many people were just hoping for a incident free race. The rulebook is always having loopholes and thats what it is about. Also, I think in the LMP2 class there were two Peugeot powered WR95's I believe they were called and they were technically F3 cars with a body over them, did they find a loophole aswell in the ruleset? I remember reading that porsche once finding out about the loophole in the rules, were more than happy to help as beforehand they were not key. And they can claimed to have won the last time a Group C car was allowed in international sportscars race which was the JGTC 1994 season, and they were allowed to race the car despite it not even coming close to the rulesa nd was seriously handicapped against the converted Group A R32s. Please do more of these type of videos :)
The Dauer had a shorter windscreen compared to the 962. The roof extended further forward. Also the rear end was modified to allow for lower mounted road legal rear lights and room for a number plate. The overall look really worked in my view!
I was at the last major race victory of a Porsche 962-derived racecar. 1995 24 Rolex 24 at Daytona. Kremer K8, basically a 962 Spyder. Wasn't the fastest car there, but famed Porsche 962 reliability got it to the finish line in the lead.
Great stuff, the Kremer team tried a similar idea when they built a new Porsche 917 (from blueprints) after checking the rules to see if it would be elegble. Sadly the engine wasn't quite right.
of course, new interesting thing learnt here. well informative as usual. better go back and read the manual nooklet of that washing machine once again.
You probably know this, but Kremer pulled off something similar at the 1995 24 Hours of Daytona. All the talk was about the Ferrari 333 SPs, but most of them dropped out overnight with problems. It was another classic case for Porsche; they weren't the fastest thing on the track, but they were the fastest still running at the end.
Aussie Vern Schuppan tried to do the same too, with Porsche backing. Only a few cars made (6) after the Japanese investors funding dried up. Road going 962CR, not enough funds for a LeMans challenge.
The all time lap is still from F1 racing at the Green Hell , if my memory serves me correctly while the original start and finish section was there that was removed to make place for the new Nürbergring track . 22,835 m , 6:58.6 Ferrari 312T F1 Niki Lauda 2 August 1975 , 1983 20,832 m 6:11.13 Porsche 956 Gr. C ,Stefan Bellof 28 May 1983 on a 2 .003 m shorter track 47.47 seconds difference . Bellofs stands as the fastest lap because that is the current layout to this day and Lauda's version of the Green Hell is forever set in History since that version of the Ring ring like a few other versions will never return.
Just using this comments section to let you know that Roberto Moreno is racing in the Formula Ford festival this weekend. Yes really. He won it 41 years ago.
3:24 Porsche 956s and 962s were brilliant when they were new, but Porsche never really updated them and left that work to privateers who obviously didn't have the money and resources to build very competitive cars, while Jaguar and Mercedes were going strong with their factory projects.
Dauer-Porsche's 1994 run is the most 70s era Porsche thing to ever happen since! (Although I did thuroughly enjoy the 919's Nurburgring "because we can" victory lap). An old saying goes that "if you ain't cheating you ain't winning". Trust me Germans and specifically Porsche to ruthlessessly comply with the letter of the rule book while completely disregarding the intent of the rules. "Wenn wir technisch sprechen, dann haben wir die Regeln nicht missachtet"...or something like that.
Smoky Yunnick also used a thin gauge fuel pipe to allow more fuel in the pipes than in the reserve of the tank. Cause he once drove out of checking the car with no fuel in the tank as it had been drained. And the line of NASCAR is 'if you're not cheating, your not racing'. Also by Smoky.
Are you sure the 962s had 650hp in GT1 race trim? The '94 Rent-A-Car Racing Vipers in GT1 were capable of 800hp, but sources list them at 580hp for race day.
The funny thing is that they exploited a loophole again in 1996, with the creation of the 911 GT1. Which essentially was a Le Mans prototype and not a GT. Something which Mercedes and Toyota would do aswell.
Porsche loopholing to le mans wins is a thing. I met Gijs van Lennep a few years back at the Historic GP Zandvoort, Porsche had brought out the #22 that he and a certain Helmut we all know from a certain RB advisory role won Le Mans with. No engine because if they mount one and start it the chassis woul crumble. Magnesium chassis. Nice and fireproof that.
Technically, if you are counting non-vintage/historic race wins, the Sheltons have the last win..... as they won the 2008 Rose Cup at Portland in a 962. With another loophole, it was classed as a "production car" because so many 962s were made. lol
Read the book! Rules said fuel line must be same length as stock, he made it 2" diameter. Smokey was crafty and smart, they wouldn't just let you add length. Seriously read BDGIT by Smokey and do an episode on it. Cheers
This wasn't the first time the ACO got burned by their incessant loopholes to fit a "French" manufacturer in, and Porsche taking advantage to win. I think that's what upsets the ACO the most. The wrong manufacturer keeps beating them at their loopholes. Lord knows if a French manufacturer were to win, they'd turn deaf to anyone else calling them out. We've seen this in WRC for Peugot, LM24 for Matra-Simca and the Italians taking advantage of the loopholes. It does bring a smile to my face though when the ACO gets outplayed.
I watched the race on TV back then. It felt like revenge to see a former Group-C car take the win after what Ecclestone, Mosley and Ballestre did to Group-C racing. Fun fact: The 'luggage space that could hold at least one suitcase' rule was open for interpretation. Every GT1 car had luggage space, but Toyota found a brilliant loophole for their GT One. Their luggage space was the fuel tank. When it was empty, it was big enough to hold a decent size suitcase. The rules never stated that the suitcase should be present, or that a suitcase could be put in or removed from that space. So Toyota's fuel tank was homologated as luggage space, lol.
Was watching the scrute at the car park behind the theatre in place De Jacobins, an incredibly yellow daur GT road car drove in, jochen and his female partner, this car caused a bit if a sensation,talk about bees around a honeypot.
GT2 cars became GTE cars, GT1 90's cars became GTP cars and fused with LMP1 due to the lack of homologation strictness, GT1 00's cars are essentially the predecessor of the modern GT3 cars.
What is it with these German manufacturers and the front axle...? Audi still have a similar issue with their Quattros, putting the engine in front of it, making them infamously front-end heavy and notoriously prone to understeer! Jus ask anyone who drove it in Group B! I suppose, though, that that "road legal" rule is what gave us the insanely rare, but well-known to any Gran Turismo player road version of the Toyota GT-One and Nissan R390! Although, I would have liked the series to have included other such cars... Ah, well, what can you do?
Loved the story of the Jeff Gordon _Tyrannosaurus Rex_ car with the triangular tube frame. NASCAR: We don't know what exactly this does,,,, but don't bring it back! Reeeeeee! And I am not a big fan of Gordon.
If you think about it every victory except for breakdowns giving away easy wins have all been from engineering loopholes found by clever designers, just not to the degree of the Dauer cars, except for Toyota for the last few years doing exactly the same thing and re-engineering the 2010's TS hybrids to meet the rules but recover the performance. Be interesting to see what comes out of the new Hypercar rules
Less of a loophole, more of story. Back in 1966, NASCAR put in a rule that made fords 427 V8 useless. So Ford decided to completely bow out of NASCAR. Which left a massive hole in Nascars wallet and turnout. NASCAR wanted Ford back so badly, NASCAR officials would look the over way if they decide to enter anything. So Ford, with the magic of Junior Johnson, entered a 66’ Ford Galaxie that was so illegal, and was so mad, (Given the monicker “The Yellow Banana”) it is considered JJ’s greatest work. It didn’t finish due to a mechanical failure. But it did it’s job, Ford was back into NASCAR.
Just to mention this Jeff krosnoff (assuming the same guy) was killed 2 years later at a cart race in Toronto killing a Marshall in the process that aside Porsche op pls nerd
@@jeremythurman5261 It was horrible indeed but, take a look at the qualifying crash of Gordon Smiley at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway in 1982. Almost incomprehensible to think of the G shock from going 215+ MPH to Zero in less than one second. There are several vids on RUclips. If memory serves the channels of two offerings are Black Flags Matter and NASCAR Historyman. 39 years ago.
@@timford3599 I think when you factor in the Marshall was killed, it makes it far much worse. I think anytime in spectator, or a non driver is killed in a race, it becomes far worse. I remember watching the race and not even noticing the marshal until years later. Regardless, I don’t miss the legendary Paul Paige giving tributes to decease drivers/spectators. Something he had to do far too often.
Would be more interesting to have some photos of the cars racing or anything else than staring at your face your voice and the storytelling are great but you need to change the way you making a video
Got any I can use? Because I can only use Creative Commons licensable stuff. Last time I put in a bunch of images one of the big libraries of photographs told me to stop or they’d start filing for strikes. That’s full on strikes, not just the claims people usually get. I’m gonna stick with the face, if that’s okay.
I was at Le Mans in 1994 to see these cars clean up, it was a scorching hot weekend and great to see these iconic cars in action. Heartbreaking for Irvine and Toyota though.
Toyota's history at Le Mans IS heartbreak. They only won while racing alone.
@@R4M_Tommy and just when they started getting better , its then that Audi and Porsche drops out. It was always due to some technical issues near the end of the race that causes them to lose, but they managed to up their durability in the end.
Irvine was a punk he did not deserve the win here nor in ferrari. What loser he is and always will be
@@alchemist2048 ironic how the most reliable automaker couldn't make a reliable prototype for Le Mans........ They tried for what almost 30 years?
@@MiguelGarcia-vj7oo To each their own dilemma I guess , right ? Plus its not like Toyota had lots of expertise in making high performance cars, like Porsche/Audi/Mercedes and such. They were known to make reliable I4/I6/V6 mostly, and cars for the mass.
Roughly 15 years ago I was passenger in a Dauer 962 Road Car. That was still a mind blowing car at that time. 10 Minutes of fear to die on a tree every next moment.
Is it the car that ended up being sold to sultan of brunei? Or is it the one with black and yellow stripes?
You lucky SOB!
2:02 one of the primary reasons why the 962 is my favorite race car of all time.
The '94 Dauers are probably my favorite 962s visually. Everything from the body work and livery to the gold spoked/chrome rimed wheels come together to make as sleek a package possible 962. They looked less like a Group C machine, but more of a modern closed cockpit prototype of the era. The '94 and '95 races were like the Wild West compared the air tight restrictions of recent years.
I've seen some of the IMSA 962s at historic events. You can see subtle changes in them through the years, either done by Porsche or privateers. They're absolutely bonkers in all the best ways
I was fortunate enough to not only watch the 962C at Watkins Glen at the Continental in the 80s, but was privileged to sit in Derek Bell's Lowenbrau Special. Imagine if IMSA has BoP back then.
The Group C cars were by far the most attractive looking in their low slung raked body designs with a smooth uncluttered front ends and low slung blended rear wing which were the results of a simpler time in regards to aerodynamics as apposed to today’s modern computer designed aero body work with blunt bulbuls front ends and a myriad of gangly aero appendages.
There's still hope with the Hypercar rules. Look at that Peugeot 9X8.
@@R4M_Tommy waay less aero restriction does make high underbody viable again. I wanna see how far the rule will pushed thru.
Porsche 962 with 1000hp and 7 speed can make it go 350mph
I’d love to see a the top Le Mans category be no rules other than the cars have to be road legal, and an arbitrary amount of cars exactly the same have to be sold to customers. Le Mans would be a good candidate for such a class as efficiency and reliability is as important as speed.
Those rules... that was, minus the roadgoing requirement, group C... minimum and maximum dimensions for the body, some restriction on ground effect design, also... here's x amount of fuel for 1000kms or for 24 hours... what you burn it in, that's your affair.... It worked well until the 3.5's were brought in.
@@andyenderby2305 It’s a shame the fun had to end.
Toyota was planning on selling a version of the GR010 for the road, but after one caught on fire in August at Fuji during a test , they’ve reportedly cancelled it.
@@interstate366 Sounds special.
hypercar actually have pretty much no rules, except for a certain amount of drag.
I remember in 1994 leading up to Le Mans, Car Magazine in South Africa had an article on the road-legal Dauer Porsche 962 - it looked stunning on black BBS wheels.
Too bad BBS went bankrupt everywhere except for Japan....
Your string of pronunciations made my German speaking mother laugh on a pretty bad day. So thank you. :)
Toyota Group C gearboxes... Hobbled the TS010 program from start to finish... I did read somewhere that no TS010 gearbox managed to last more than 16 hours without serious failure....
Also... when Toyota and Nissan ran in what became Category 2 C1.... Proper full caffeine turbocharged C1 before the 3.5l era... They were about 25% over the allowed fuel consumption when producing competitive power, not good in a fuel consumption formula. Powerful as all hell, and always in the hunt for pole where fuel consumption wasn't an issue, not so much for the race. All of which put them in a similar position to the very rapid, but ultimately underperforming Lancia LC2 program...
The Lancia LC2 story was at the same time hilarious and tragic.
Hilarious because they kept turning up the power to qualify in front of the Porsche's and tragic because that meant the Ferrari V-8 turbo-engines lasted even less rounds.
It never stopped to amaze me how the Italians couldn't figure out a way to make that car competitive, especially when you look at their success in rallying.
@@tjroelsma Not just lack of boost knob discipline... There were also pitstop issues that resulted in odd occurrences such as an LC2 rolling in, 4 tyres removed, 4 tyres put on, the car rolling out, and then the moment that the team realise that the four freshly "removed" tyres still have stickers on the tread... Fuel tanks being drained by excessive application of boost, and the general carnage that resulted from employing De Cesaris... A man of whom Guy Ligier said in the aftermath of yet more carnage.... "I can no longer afford the services of this young man". The LC2 was an amazingly quick car that suffered from poor team management, and frankly, had someone like the Kremers, Joest or Lloyd run an LC2 rather than Porsches, I reckon you'd have seen regular wins, and embarrassment for the Lancia works team.
@@andyenderby2305
The Italian run team may have made their share of mistakes and then some, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the LC2 was inherently unreliable. Lancia tried qualifying with lower boost settings to spare the engines, but then found that even then the engines would fail in a 6 hour race.
I don't know what their problems with the chassis was, but Lancia had to run on higher power settings than Porsche just to keep up, let alone try to win a race.
I think it's safe to conclude that the whole of Lancia's effort in group C was one big disaster.
@@tjroelsma Unreliable just like their cars.
@@jannadrielcervo7753 Italians can build some pretty cars, but reliability has never been their strong point.
No class of cars gets me up the runway like Group C does. Great to see they kicked arse one last time
The Porsche 962 was an excellent car, it took years of development for the other manufacturers to beat them, and the Brun team nearly finished 2nd at Le Mans in 1990, fighting with the Jaguars before an engine failure with 15 minutes to go.
It's amazing how many Group C cars continued to compete beyond the end of the Group C era. The Jaguar XJR-14 was turned into Porsche's WSC95 (I think it raced as the TWR WSC95 when Porsche pulled the plug on running the project themselves) that won with Joest Racing in 96 and 97 and Lola's T92/10 was turned into the Ascari A410 that was very nearly as fast as Audi's R8 in 2001.
And TWR WSC95 turned then to Nissan
Yay - Always loved this story, a classic example of motor sport lateral thinking.
My memory is slightly hazy - but I'm sure I read stories about one or two German tuning companies modifying 962s into road legal form long before the 94 Le Mans program, so there was some precedent for this.
You are indeed correct sir, Schuppan was the other company alongside Dauer :)
Porsche themselves tried but failed on german mot. Dauer, DP, Schuppan and Koenig + this weird Derek Bell Edition are the street legal ones that come to my mind.
@@reneengelke3218 yup. The Koenig C62 is one of my all time favorite cars. It was the first 962 conversation I saw, still remember the magazine article. It’s probably the crudest of all the conversations, so it’s a beast. That car, in yellow, on a street blew my mind dreaming about driving it.
So glad you've covered this, I've been fascinated with this car for a while
Smokey... the legend built on actual facts.
No matter the subject matter, your stories fascinate me. The only problem is the feeling of emptiness when they're over. Thanks for yet another great video!
It's the Porsche way. Don't win, decimate the competition.
So happy I get to drive this masterpiece in Sim Racing. Can't wait to take it for a spin in Gran Turismo 7.
I am also reminded of Junior Johnson's Ford Galaxie when you mentioned Smokey.
That had that Mystery Engine didn't it?
The yellow banana?
@@EmptyCheetosBag that would be it
The thing I love about Aiden is the fact that while I don't always 100% agree with his opinions, they are presented in such a way that I can completely see where he is coming from.
It's like a positive discussion gets triggered in my head. Keep up the great work Aiden!
10:04 Jeff Krosnoff died two years later during the 1996 Molson Indy Toronto Grand Prix (CART.) Krosnoff, Irvine and Ratzenberger met while competing in Japanese Formula 3000.
Another good one Aidan, Thanks... Loved the 956/962 eras All of em Reinhold Jest, Brun Motorsport, Fitzpatrick, Kremer & the factory... until they didn't. Glad to see the old girl had one more 24 hrs in her/him... Guess this car ended up some sort of SissGen...Sure was still fast.
Excellent video. Coincidentally I’m sat watching it wearing a Rothmans 962 tee shirt!
I’d love to see you do an issue on the end of Group C in Australia. We had Falcons, Commodores, Bluebirds, RX7s, Camaros and 635s and the politics of what you were allowed to do to them to make them competitive will keep you very busy. Great racing though
Then Godzilla came, won and got banned.
@@R4M_Tommy that was Group A
@@R4M_Tommy The GTR was banned the same way the Mazda 787B was banned. It wasn't, Group A just died due to lack of interest. If it died during the Ford Sierra's era or the BMW M3's era, people would be jerking off to those cars.
Im glad im old enough that i got to watch the legendary 962’s run in GTP
Loved it! One of my favorite cars of all time!
I've only seen these race as slot cars. They look awesome!
Thoroughly enjoyed this video. Only became aware of the topic during Chris Harris’s recent podcast with Jost Capito on Collecting Cars. Look forward to binging a heap of these vids!
This kind of thing is why I love Porsche. They're always looking for a win, no matter what it costs.
Started this as something to amuse me while eating. It ended up keeping me listening despite beeing done eating 6min into it and I stayed until the end of it 👍😎
Jost Capito, who was running Porsche Racing at the time, said on the Collecting Cars podcast they didn't even use a Dauer in the Le Mans race. They used the Dauer as proof that it had been homologated, but then just used their own Group C car in the actual race, albeit de-restricted to GT1 regs as you say. Not the first time the race car has been built first and then the road car made from it for homologation, but definitely a loophole rare circumstance in the case of the 962 group C appearing in GT1.
The Toyota during against the Daurer 962 is basically a Long boi MR2 SW20 with a V8 came from a Lexus Sedan.
The MC8-R, right?
@@afilleduptaco yes.
There's 2 type of engine that Toyota and Sard turner put on MC8.
The MC8 Road version has a 1UZ and been sold to the owner, the recent japanese owner todays bought that same MC8 for 30k U$D and it has no idea that the car he bought was the rarest of the world until he found out only 1 road car produce.
The Race car version on other hand the MC8-R use the same twin turbo V8 engine from a Group C Toyota.
no thats a entirely different gt1 car the SARD. this toyota was the 94c-v. a direct successor to the group c line of toyota's but with more weight, no roof and much reduced power
@@blankfiile that engine i was talking about the 94cv.
I just forgot it.
Not so sure if the MC8-R was turbo charged or pure NA?
Thanks for including a pic of the Paragon Porsche, I'd forgotten Paragon was a thing!
Ugh edited to give homage to the Labre Competition Viper you showed a pic of. Absolute filth.
Now I want to be clear, my specs don't have rose tinted lenses. Of course we still see innovation breeding controversy *cough* Ferrari F1 engine, Mercedes DAS *cough* - but as a general rule, the rule books are getting more specific, and there are less options for one or two teams to see something in the rules that creates these little runaway car situations.
I've got my fingers crossed that somebody will have something with the upcoming F1 rule changes. I know a lot of people think that there is going to be a grid of virtually identical cars, but that is nonsense. No matter what trick bits teams come up with however, we are not going to see innovation on a par with quad front wheels, wings on stilts etc.
Sure there is a little bit of nostalgia going on here, but there was fun to having a grid with some really wild solutions. I think the modern cars look great, halo and all (I felt like a bit of an outsider when that came in because I liked how it looked on the cars). But I'd embrace the idea of somebody turning up with four wheel steering (yes, I was the guy that was disappointed the FIA said get rid of DAS, rather than telling all the other teams to catch up or shut up), or wings on stilts to try to get around the dirty air problem (yes I know the new rules will help).
I guess, I'd just like to see a new series that kind of embraces a "Run what you brung" philosophy, that lets the designers and engineers have their minds run wild.
TLDR
@@bis4blair And yet you felt the need to announce that you were too lazy to read it. Seems like a strange way to spend your time.
@@damionlee7658 Yeah F1 needs to get back to a more open formula. Get rid of the hybrids, keep the fuel limit and no refueling. Make engine capacity open, number of cylinders open, no limit on revs, get the cars back to being smaller and lighter, keep no driver aids and no active aero or suspension. DAS was innovative for sure and totally within the rules at the time.. They dont need to be ultimately faster, just freer.
I watched this race as a kid in England with my Dad after all what happened in F1 just over a month ago I think many people were just hoping for a incident free race. The rulebook is always having loopholes and thats what it is about. Also, I think in the LMP2 class there were two Peugeot powered WR95's I believe they were called and they were technically F3 cars with a body over them, did they find a loophole aswell in the ruleset? I remember reading that porsche once finding out about the loophole in the rules, were more than happy to help as beforehand they were not key. And they can claimed to have won the last time a Group C car was allowed in international sportscars race which was the JGTC 1994 season, and they were allowed to race the car despite it not even coming close to the rulesa nd was seriously handicapped against the converted Group A R32s. Please do more of these type of videos :)
I never knew they raced in the JGTC.A quick search said the 962 came 12th.
The Dauer had a shorter windscreen compared to the 962. The roof extended further forward. Also the rear end was modified to allow for lower mounted road legal rear lights and room for a number plate. The overall look really worked in my view!
I was at the last major race victory of a Porsche 962-derived racecar. 1995 24 Rolex 24 at Daytona. Kremer K8, basically a 962 Spyder. Wasn't the fastest car there, but famed Porsche 962 reliability got it to the finish line in the lead.
The whole time I'm here dying watching Rosberg's face on his shirt get squished and folded lmao
Great stuff, the Kremer team tried a similar idea when they built a new Porsche 917 (from blueprints) after checking the rules to see if it would be elegble. Sadly the engine wasn't quite right.
Right from the beginning, I was in doubts, what kind of Jedi KungFu Master rocks on that shirt.....well, its Niko.... 🤭
Lovely Video!
(And also a nice Shirt)
of course, new interesting thing learnt here. well informative as usual.
better go back and read the manual nooklet of that washing machine once again.
You probably know this, but Kremer pulled off something similar at the 1995 24 Hours of Daytona. All the talk was about the Ferrari 333 SPs, but most of them dropped out overnight with problems. It was another classic case for Porsche; they weren't the fastest thing on the track, but they were the fastest still running at the end.
"Joest" is an O-Umlaut, sounds like "early" - but Kudos for trying ;-)
@Connor, the android sent by CyberLife just the "ea" sound of early, without the "r"
Yup! The Dauer 962 LM was quite a poster car!
Aussie Vern Schuppan tried to do the same too, with Porsche backing. Only a few cars made (6) after the Japanese investors funding dried up.
Road going 962CR, not enough funds for a LeMans challenge.
The all time lap is still from F1 racing at the Green Hell , if my memory serves me correctly while the original start and finish section was there that was removed to make place for the new Nürbergring track . 22,835 m , 6:58.6 Ferrari 312T F1 Niki Lauda 2 August 1975 , 1983 20,832 m 6:11.13 Porsche 956 Gr. C ,Stefan Bellof 28 May 1983 on a 2 .003 m shorter track 47.47 seconds difference .
Bellofs stands as the fastest lap because that is the current layout to this day and Lauda's version of the Green Hell is forever set in History
since that version of the Ring ring like a few other versions will never return.
Just using this comments section to let you know that Roberto Moreno is racing in the Formula Ford festival this weekend. Yes really. He won it 41 years ago.
Tim's mug? Nice touch.
I would love to see a video on GT1 and how it went from road-legal cars to prototypes and back to road-legal.
I second that!
Do a video about the Daytona prototypes that came before dpi
And a video about group C vs GTP
3:24 Porsche 956s and 962s were brilliant when they were new, but Porsche never really updated them and left that work to privateers who obviously didn't have the money and resources to build very competitive cars, while Jaguar and Mercedes were going strong with their factory projects.
Hey Aidan, can you talk sometime about the push rod indycar engine again plz :)
Dauer-Porsche's 1994 run is the most 70s era Porsche thing to ever happen since! (Although I did thuroughly enjoy the 919's Nurburgring "because we can" victory lap).
An old saying goes that "if you ain't cheating you ain't winning". Trust me Germans and specifically Porsche to ruthlessessly comply with the letter of the rule book while completely disregarding the intent of the rules. "Wenn wir technisch sprechen, dann haben wir die Regeln nicht missachtet"...or something like that.
This is what occurs when you apparently spend your entire life learning an esoteric subject. ❤
Smoky Yunnick also used a thin gauge fuel pipe to allow more fuel in the pipes than in the reserve of the tank. Cause he once drove out of checking the car with no fuel in the tank as it had been drained.
And the line of NASCAR is 'if you're not cheating, your not racing'. Also by Smoky.
There was also “if Smokey can think it, it’s illegal”
What horrid irony to see Ratzenberger and Krosnoff names on the same car, my uncle was Jeff's crew chief that fateful day in Toronto terrible crash
14 or 15 laps? Holy moly that's way more than you'll see today's cars do on a single tank
Have you read any of Steve Matchett's books?
drive shaft = half shaft, since they were all mid engined cars, drive shafts are for front or front mid engined cars, FYI.
Are you sure the 962s had 650hp in GT1 race trim? The '94 Rent-A-Car Racing Vipers in GT1 were capable of 800hp, but sources list them at 580hp for race day.
I like the idea that a 12 years old design won the highest class in endurance racing.
The funny thing is that they exploited a loophole again in 1996, with the creation of the 911 GT1.
Which essentially was a Le Mans prototype and not a GT.
Something which Mercedes and Toyota would do aswell.
Gonna watch le mans 94 now..............got nothing better to do
for the next 24 hours?
Great stuff.......as usual! Thanks!
Porsche loopholing to le mans wins is a thing. I met Gijs van Lennep a few years back at the Historic GP Zandvoort, Porsche had brought out the #22 that he and a certain Helmut we all know from a certain RB advisory role won Le Mans with. No engine because if they mount one and start it the chassis woul crumble. Magnesium chassis. Nice and fireproof that.
please could you re up load the stefen bellof video
Technically, if you are counting non-vintage/historic race wins, the Sheltons have the last win..... as they won the 2008 Rose Cup at Portland in a 962. With another loophole, it was classed as a "production car" because so many 962s were made. lol
We're not going to mention the fuzzing effect at all? Aight cool.
Read the book! Rules said fuel line must be same length as stock, he made it 2" diameter. Smokey was crafty and smart, they wouldn't just let you add length. Seriously read BDGIT by Smokey and do an episode on it. Cheers
This wasn't the first time the ACO got burned by their incessant loopholes to fit a "French" manufacturer in, and Porsche taking advantage to win. I think that's what upsets the ACO the most. The wrong manufacturer keeps beating them at their loopholes. Lord knows if a French manufacturer were to win, they'd turn deaf to anyone else calling them out. We've seen this in WRC for Peugot, LM24 for Matra-Simca and the Italians taking advantage of the loopholes. It does bring a smile to my face though when the ACO gets outplayed.
I watched the race on TV back then. It felt like revenge to see a former Group-C car take the win after what Ecclestone, Mosley and Ballestre did to Group-C racing.
Fun fact: The 'luggage space that could hold at least one suitcase' rule was open for interpretation. Every GT1 car had luggage space, but Toyota found a brilliant loophole for their GT One. Their luggage space was the fuel tank. When it was empty, it was big enough to hold a decent size suitcase. The rules never stated that the suitcase should be present, or that a suitcase could be put in or removed from that space. So Toyota's fuel tank was homologated as luggage space, lol.
Now that was a cool story!
Dauer these nuts
Was watching the scrute at the car park behind the theatre in place De Jacobins, an incredibly yellow daur GT road car drove in, jochen and his female partner, this car caused a bit if a sensation,talk about bees around a honeypot.
Dang, got here so early that Lewis already crashed Max out at T1 at the Mexico GP
The question is if Hamilton were alone on a track and crashed would Max still get blamed?
@@scottn7cy of course, it would always be Max's fault, even if he isn't there. Logic
Awkward moment when Max almost had Lewis in a wall more times since this comment was left than the other way round 🤣
@@AidanMillward I don't think anyone is shedding tears for Hamilton.
@@scottn7cy some people are, the way he’s living rent free under peoples’ skin.
One case of an actual glory hole in motorsport.
Also, of course it didn’t rain in 94’, would have given the EB110 quite the advantage.
the race car was RWD to comply with the rules
@@blankfiile the Le Mans car maintained its 4WD system, the silver IMSA car was RWD.
It is spoken Jöst
We don't know what came first the chicken or the egg, but we do know the 956 and 962 came before Toyota, jaguar... and learned from Porsche.
awesome video
If you think that this is exploiting the rules. You should do a video on the Toyota GT-One. And their interpretation of the suitcase rule.
How come you said the production 962 had a top speed of 250mph, but it doesn't show up in any records, but the mclaren f1 does
so you touched on it a bit here...but GT1...GT2? Gt3? why do we only see GT3 and GT4 cars these days?
GT2 cars became GTE cars, GT1 90's cars became GTP cars and fused with LMP1 due to the lack of homologation strictness, GT1 00's cars are essentially the predecessor of the modern GT3 cars.
What is it with these German manufacturers and the front axle...? Audi still have a similar issue with their Quattros, putting the engine in front of it, making them infamously front-end heavy and notoriously prone to understeer! Jus ask anyone who drove it in Group B!
I suppose, though, that that "road legal" rule is what gave us the insanely rare, but well-known to any Gran Turismo player road version of the Toyota GT-One and Nissan R390! Although, I would have liked the series to have included other such cars... Ah, well, what can you do?
Loved the story of the Jeff Gordon _Tyrannosaurus Rex_ car with the triangular tube frame.
NASCAR: We don't know what exactly this does,,,, but don't bring it back! Reeeeeee!
And I am not a big fan of Gordon.
Triangular tube frame? How did that work?
@@izzdin6228 Many track wins and a Championship is how it worked.
Colin Chapman and Smokey Yunick made a career out of slicing up and dodging all around the rule book.
If you think about it every victory except for breakdowns giving away easy wins have all been from engineering loopholes found by clever designers, just not to the degree of the Dauer cars, except for Toyota for the last few years doing exactly the same thing and re-engineering the 2010's TS hybrids to meet the rules but recover the performance. Be interesting to see what comes out of the new Hypercar rules
Less of a loophole, more of story. Back in 1966, NASCAR put in a rule that made fords 427 V8 useless. So Ford decided to completely bow out of NASCAR. Which left a massive hole in Nascars wallet and turnout. NASCAR wanted Ford back so badly, NASCAR officials would look the over way if they decide to enter anything. So Ford, with the magic of Junior Johnson, entered a 66’ Ford Galaxie that was so illegal, and was so mad, (Given the monicker “The Yellow Banana”) it is considered JJ’s greatest work. It didn’t finish due to a mechanical failure. But it did it’s job, Ford was back into NASCAR.
What's Sandbagging?
Pretending to be slow so it gives your opponents false confidence.
@@AidanMillward Do they have Sarcasm in the UK? Watch the Movie "Sex Drive" Amish Seth Green kills it..
My tires are dead…
Sets fastest lap.
That Toyota was cursed.
Ratzenburger was dead, Krosnoff died a year later.
Where the Movie-Full Feature one
Yaassssss
Just to mention this Jeff krosnoff (assuming the same guy) was killed 2 years later at a cart race in Toronto killing a Marshall in the process that aside Porsche op pls nerd
It was. Hard to believe that 2 of the people in that car would die tragically within 2 years .
@@jeremythurman5261 fate and life work in crazy ways my friend
@@TeamRedWolf11 indeed. The Krosnoff crash is probably the most horrific crash over the past 30-40 years of racing.
@@jeremythurman5261 It was horrible indeed but, take a look at the qualifying crash of Gordon Smiley at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway in 1982. Almost incomprehensible to think of the G shock from going 215+ MPH to Zero in less than one second. There are several vids on RUclips. If memory serves the channels of two offerings are Black Flags Matter and NASCAR Historyman. 39 years ago.
@@timford3599 I think when you factor in the Marshall was killed, it makes it far much worse. I think anytime in spectator, or a non driver is killed in a race, it becomes far worse. I remember watching the race and not even noticing the marshal until years later. Regardless, I don’t miss the legendary Paul Paige giving tributes to decease drivers/spectators. Something he had to do far too often.
Where does one find his shirt
I got it made while drunk.
Would be more interesting to have some photos of the cars racing or anything else than staring at your face your voice and the storytelling are great but you need to change the way you making a video
Got any I can use? Because I can only use Creative Commons licensable stuff.
Last time I put in a bunch of images one of the big libraries of photographs told me to stop or they’d start filing for strikes. That’s full on strikes, not just the claims people usually get.
I’m gonna stick with the face, if that’s okay.
FATurbo, yep that brand won't survive these days... heheh
Great info, but you should kill the sim racing title. It makes you seem a bit gamery.
I’m gonna keep using it. It’s better than getting busted for footage or images.
Almost like that’s already happened…
Joest
oe in german is spelled "ö"' yes i know it doesn't exist in English.
Jöst