Deep Intel on the F-35
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- Опубликовано: 16 фев 2023
- Pako Benitez returns to the channel to talk with Ward about the unique history and capability of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.
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Развлечения
The thing that is always overlooked with the 1.6 trillion price tag is that it includes development/R&D, production, and maintenance out to 2065. This is something never done with any other fighter in our fleet.
Wait until people in the 1950s find out how much the B-52 will cost for maintenance and production over the entire life of the program . . .
Oh
@@amygdalohippocampus haha....yes. And still money well spent
Legendary comment!!! I see why you are a 4 star armchair General!!!
Smart move involving allies in the build that is the key to long term affordablity
It's really impressive to me how modest and low key this guy is. If I had somehow found myself in the same bleeding edge state of the art career, I reckon I would be such an arrogant shit that people would probably despise me. This gentleman's disposition speaks volumes as to the qualities and personalities of those who actually do perform these functions on our behalf. A really nice, polite, reserved - and deadly capable warfighter.
These interviews with Pako never feels long! I saw that it’s 45 minutes long; but man that went quick!!!! I wanted more! haha! What a highly informative video! I love these deep intel videos with Pako. Just shows when you have probably one of the best interviewers ever with a solid foundation of the material being presented, coupled with an extremely knowledgeable person that can easily explain things in layman’s terms; the content never feels boring and leaves us wanting more.
24:42 I’ll tell you exactly why this was a requirement and useful. I’m surprised that neither of these fighter pilots thought of this, but it’s to identify and visualize incoming pop up attacks from surface threats. The first question every fighter pilot has when they are informed they’ve been fired upon is “Where is it?” The DAS system, in addition to performing its main role as a passive 360 IR sensor, it can let the pilot actually see the direction of the incoming threat, even if the picture fidelity isn’t great. If say a MANPAD or a SPAAG opens fire on the plane, the sensor catches the launch plume or muzzle flashes, warns the pilot of the threat, and puts symbology over it. The pilot looks, sees its direction and the IR imagery that the sensor is using so they might see a smoke trail or muzzle flashes. Any detail that might help them make a decision.
just do what the apache does, RWR automatically tells you what directions youre being locked/fired at from.
Block 4 needs an entire episode... Huge, huge changes coming down the pike, including probably a new motor because the current motor is over max on cooling avionics already and Block 4 will amp this up quite a bit.
Can't get enough of Paco! Guy is just so bright and articulate. Keep him coming back Mooch!!!
Much better than the Gronk. Bronk? You know who I mean.
OMGOSH, as an aviation fanatic, and one who marvels at technology, this is the BEST video I’ve ever seen on the F-35! Thank you so much, Mooch & Pako!
Thank you, Paco, for opening by clarifying the price figure the media spits out is a lifetime cost one. Really set the tone for what the rest of this interview was going to be, and you didn't disappoint one bit. It's astounding how many people, even in the defense community, repeat information that is easily proven false by looking into even open-source budget and testing reports on the aircraft.
Sadly, I think the people who need to hear how they're wrong about the F-35 are the ones who are least likely to listen, and the comments section seems to bear that out.
Pako is becoming another one of my favourite guests on this channel. I hope that he contributes, after details from last year's Carl Vinson F-35C crash are revealed. Would love to hear his insights regarding the engineering/technical aspects of the accident while Mooch and Hozer comment from the doctrinal and naval aviation angles.
Is it just me or does it feel like the comments section has been gate crashed by a Russian troll farm? Usually the comments on wards videos are respectful and informed. There’s a whole different vibe here. Russia must be terrified of the F-35
If you’ve ever said “I stand with Ukraine” or used the flag in your social media bio… it’s probably just you.
@@jabroni6199 I never have but thank you for your valuable input
@@Tuffpaddy03 anytime bud
Russia is terrified of the F-35, that's why they had Pierre Sprey shit-talk about it on Russia Today
@@tostadatheviking7828 who is Pierre ghay?
Having been part of the F35 program since before the contract award, I’d say Paco is spot on with virtually every point he made. It’s been an amazing program and most importantly every pilot I’ve talked to loves to fly it.
Because it’s a fantastic aircraft or because the pilots want to be part of a massive program?
@@stevenaylor5163 Boeing shill enters the chat
@@stevenaylor5163 Forget about all the combat capabilities for a bit and just think about basic safety, ease of flight, and being able to return and land easily without mishaps. No other fighter in history compares well with the F-35A especially, nor do they compare well with the F-35B and F-35C when it comes to safety. Pilots don’t care about massive programs or newness over safety.
Thanks, that means a lot from someone involved in the program for so long.
@@TheMergeMedia YW! One of the pre F35 programs I don’t recall you mentioning was the A12, aka “the flying dorito”. If ever there was a masterclass in defense procurement malpractice, it was the A12. Fun fact, most of the F35’s engineering work in Ft Worth was at the offsite twin cube buildings that were built for the A12. I think this would be a great subject for you and Ward to cover in the future. That program ruined many careers and set Naval Aviation back at least a decade.
Another great video. Paco and Justin Bronk really have great information.
Very frightening that bit about the loss of the industrial base. Consolidation in shipbuilding has already critically affected the Navy's ability to expand quickly, if needed, as in WW2, imagine the glee in the eyes of our enemies when they realize they only have to hang tight until 2050ish.
Pako's knowledge and intelligence is amazing. I sincerely hope we have many more aviation experts in the military like him.
Just briefly, the reason that the antenna in the nose of the F-35 is called a multi-function array and not a radar is because it is just acting as an antenna, and is used for jamming and other EW functions, as well as the usual radar functions. Also, it is a Low Probability of Intercept/Detection radar, which keeps the plane stealthy while the radar is on.
Perspective from a 25+ year career on the contractor side (though not part of the JSF/F35 program):
1) Any discussion of cost and schedule performance must also consider requirements stability. It is impossible to finish a design, let alone manufacture it, when the Customer keeps moving the goalposts. JSF/F35 had baked -in requirements drift throughout the EMD "concurrency" nonsense phase.
2) Nunn-McCurdy breaches are not unusual for large programs (SBIRS, FCS, Zumwalt, others), and it can be easily argued that this reflects a flawed DoD procurement model more than individual program leadership or performance.
3) It is also not unusual for programs to change leadership mid-stream. Initial leadership is more focused on "keeping the program sold", while manufacturing-phase leadership is focused on cost discipline. This too is perhaps more a reflection of the procurement model than individual programs or leaders.
Frankly fighter development programs are not one year marvels, they consume a decade or more... Within that decade or more technology advances, technology does not stop for a fighter development program... It is what it is...
JPO/Congress/Alcoa screwed Lockheed by mandating a certain % of 7085 aluminum for each F-35, when Lockheed and Boeing had already proven that they could use more engineered carbon fiber structures for bulkheads, ribs, spars, tail booms, etc.
As a result, the first 6 F-35s were overweight pigs by thousands of pounds, unable to meet the program KPPs.
They fired the JPO head, brought in Rick Abell from retirement as part of the SWAT weight loss program, who looked at everything and asked why they never let Lockheed build it the way they had planned?
They went to an all carbon fiber quad tail for structures, and cut the weight down substantially, while increasing strength and service life.
RCS dropped lower than F-22's as well at that point, since CF is RF transparent.
Could listen to Pako for hours. F35 is an amazing piece of kit and that's just judging from the outside. Can only imagine the classified stuff.
thank you!
It helps that Ward really knows his stuff from a real world fighter pilot experience. So many people comenting on this are just armchair flyers. Helps me to understand just what we are getting here.
I honestly love how Ward covers these things. It's very clear that even though his valid experience is in legacy systems like the Tomcats he's willing to understand the new stuff which is absolutely refreshing to see.
I think one reason for the 360 camera view is that it maintains maximum stealth by allowing the F-35 to stay in neutral, forward position. If the pilot needn't swivel or bank to see something, then stealth remains maximized.
DAS has zero to do with stealth though. DAS is a situational awareness tool for the pilot, not a targeting system. That's what the EOTS is for, since it has FLIR and a laser designator. So EOTS allows the pilot to look at stuff for targeting, etc.
@@yxeaviationphotog the distributed aperture system is stated to be capable of detecting AND tracking both ground and air launched missiles, tactical ballistic missiles, aircraft, and allowing for missiles to be cued based on the information from its sensors, allowing for 360 degree shots to be made. There are a couple videos on YT demonstrating such from about 10 years back, and Raytheon claims to have improved the system as much as twice or so.
DAS is an evolution of the F-22's IR MAWS. The fidelity of the newer IR cameras made it a situational awareness and sensor-cueing system as well.
Really enjoyed. Thank you. I'm just perplexed how "we" openly share all this information for 'anyone' to see and hear.
Such an intelligent conversation.
Details of the F-22 are harder to come by, but then it has only one operator, the US Air Force. The F-35 by contrast has many users and was designed from the start to have foreign production partners and a wide range of export customers. Apart from the usual suspects like Canada, Israel and the UK, the F-35 is being actively sold to countries such as Switzerland, Belgium and Thailand.
As to which strategy - close secrecy or prolific export sales, makes the most sense for the safety and security of the USA, it's not simple to answer. The F-22 is full of technology that is still secret, but the project became expensive and thus vulnerable to cuts originating from inside the US political system. So the US cut back heavily on the number purchased, making them even more expensive per unit actually produced. The end result is that there aren't many of them in the air. Even a few losses would make it hard to justify continuing to operate the F-22, whatever its strengths as a weapon system.
The F-35 by contrast became famous as the project it was impossible to stop. So many US states were involved in the project and so many allies had ordered it that politically it was bullet proof. As a result there are lot of them out there now whatever its actual qualities good or bad. Numerous far flung allies of the US such as Japan and Australia operate them. One way of achieving this was by reassuring existing and potential customers of how wonderful it is, and boasting of its many exotic features! Secrecy has to be compromised to some degree if you are going with this strategy.
Thank you, Ward!
I wish more was said about putting the cost in context. $1.2 trillion is a lot of money, but that is the total upfront cost for the jets plus all maintenance, flight hours etc over the entire service life of the program, basically 70 years. So if you divide that $1.2 trillion by 70 years you come up with a little more than $17 billion a year. Still a lot of money but there are many, many federal programs that we spend much more than that on every year. Sidebar: when did we start making such calculations? As far as I know no one sat down in 1950 and tried to figure out how much the B-52 program would cost over it's entire life. Nor for any other military aircraft, ship, tank etc. It would have been foolish to try then and I suspect is so now with F-35.
Also on the issue of why did they create the ability to see through the aircraft. I would guess that was just a side effect of having sensors all around the jet and an advanced helmet. Both exist for reasons other than "seeing through the aircraft" but since the data from the sensors exists why not feed it into the helmet and let the pilot utilize it?
One other thing that you forgot to mention: the 2070 lifetime cost is calculated in 2070 dollars, including speculated inflation rate. Back-adjusting to FY2023 US dollars puts the F-35's total lifetime cost at about $675 billion in today's dollars - certainly not cheap, but also not the staggering $1.2 trillion the media screams about. If you do the math, that also means the latest cost growth in the F-35 program is basically owed *entirely* to inflation adjustment.
These lifetime cost calculations started in the 1970s as part of the general Congressional push to exert more control over the US military, after the debacle of Vietnam, failure of programs like the F-111B, XB-70, and B-1A, as well as other programs like the Spruance- class DDs and Ticonderoga-class CGs failing to deliver on promised cost savings or going over budget. Amusingly though, this increased reporting requirement has actually only helped to obscure the true state of acquisition further, especially in relation to stuff in the 1950s and 1960s. At a time when the ends justified the means and reporting was incredibly-opaque, 25%+ cost overruns and schedule slips of half a year or more were basically the norm. But because there was no reporting, nobody realizes that the 1950s were an era of great progress as much because we threw massive amounts of shit at the wall as because of any particularly-competent program management.
I made a similar comment elsewhere but you nailed it. Ward just laps up the stupid "lifetime cost" schtick and tries to divide it and come up with a cost per airframe too?? Absurd, but what else do you expect from someone who's stuck in the glory days of 1986...?
Outstanding presentation. Thank you for correcting the record.
The screen is actually old technology. We use them at work. The Honeywell TDC3000 was made for refineries and other automated manufacturing facilities in the 70's and they used the same laser grid for touch screen capability.
You forgot UK BAE Systems with More than 1,500 employees at the company's facilities in Samlesbury, Lancashire, produce the rear fuselage for every F-35 in the global fleet. The first fuselage was delivered to Lockheed Martin in 2005.
And the 1000th was delivered on 8 February.
A great video and I have one thought about it. I'm an old F-4B pilot and to me having the see-through-the-floor capability would be a great feature. I know you can roll over but that is not the same as having this feature. At night or IFR weather it would be really handy to know that you don't need to roll on your back to see what's down there. I can see why none of the current F-35 pilots would want to go back to their old planes.
This is all so fascinating. I have spoken to several people who have flown it, and I was in when it started its development, but I never knew the development story.
Considering I just got a 2018 les paul Classic gold top w/ p-90s I love the way you have a Gibson less paul in your life. I'm also a Tomcat lover as it is and was the coolest jet we've ever had. Great channel!
Ward, Absolutely Excellent Video, Paco is Brilliant , Fantastic Info, Do More Like This !!!
thanks!!!
Thanks, will do!
Prior corpsman here......ward, a video on how air crews and pilots stay so healthy would be cool. They somehow NEVER were in medical trying to get out of work
The F-35 production forecast is to be over 3500 units. The F-4 Phantom program produced over 5,100 units. We've had extremely large aircraft production programs before. It would be gratifying to actually have the forecast number of aircraft actually produced for once.
Loved the video. Small correction about touch screens on phones: They do not use IR but capacitive touch. The end result of not working with gloves is the same though.
Great correction, thanks for holding my feet to fire so bad info isn't propagated.
wonderful Interview, Thanks Ward 🙂
Always thrilling, thanks Ward.
I would change the title to "Review of the engineering history of the F-35", not "Deep Intel". Good show.
Gotcha 🇷🇺 🤖
Mooch, you always have great guest on your program and i just have to say Paco is Top Shelf.
You and Pako do a great job together. Always glad when he is a guest.
Wow! What a great interview. Thanks Mooch!
It really should be said every time the cost 1.7 trillion is mentioned, that the price is for 66 years of operation, and includes RnD, spares, upgrades and maintenance for three branches of the military.
Also, I bet it's going to fly way beyond it's projected age, they will turn them into a swarm or something.
Loved the last video with Pako. These deep intel videos are awesome
I like that he is honest about the airframe and the problems with it as well as the really cool stuff that is more low key
thanks!!
What a great episode Ward. Brilliant, informative, your guest was stellar.. I learned a lot, thanks!!
Great interview, I could listen to you and Paco talk about aircraft all day!
Thank you for another excellent presentation!
the B variant will be very relevant in the pacific as it allows an amphibious landing ship to project power as a small aircraft carrier. Very important considering how little real estate there is out there and how ballistic missiles have changed the reliability of airfields
Ambhibious Landing ships will not even come in Range to attack mainland China. If the Attack is expected. You'd have to send in B-2 Bombers, or if given 20 years from now, B-21's. Remember: the Fuel capacity of the B-variant is compromized without external fuel tanks or Mid air refueling, (Which should happen outside of China's weapon range).
@@Gunni1972 I never said they'd be attacking mainland china
A very fine interview with Punk. I'm new to this forum and have enjoyed all the podcasts I have viewed. Thanks for putting this material out there for folks like me to watch and appreciate. Happy New Year Ward!
Fabulous interview. Thanks
This clip is 1 year back and last week I see Congressional hearing that they are $100M a piece and only 29% are mission ready? The $1M helmet bothers me more since without a fully functional helmet the 100M "system" is useless. Thanks for the update.
They are about 77 million each (which is cheaper than a euro fighter, Rafale, and about the same as a Gripen) and the helmet is 400k. All told the F-35 is a bargain. But when your entire existence is financially dependent on discrediting everything, this will happen.
Shouldn't be that surprising it's a huge program. Back when F-16 program was being done, it was the largest aircraft program in the world up to that time. Was used as a primary example for Project/Program Management training in the late '80s and many of the original PMI (Project Management Institute) instructors and case studies for original PMI came from that program.
F-4 and multiple other programs were bigger than F-16. 5,195 F-4s were built. We’ll need to make 500 more F-16s to reach F-4 numbers.
@@LRRPFco52, but not in terms of costs, new tech introduction, distributed production, etc...i.e. from a Program Management perspective.
Great interview, so much insight and useful information including sensor fusion, APG-81/85 and MADL
Ward! This was fantastic!!! Keep up the kick ass work my man!!! THIS WAS AWESOME!!! 💪😎👍
18:00 - when F35 metal discussion actually starts - the rest is about program management
to be fair, the program management (lack thereof) is pretty important to understanding why the program derailed as it did. I've looked into similar programs of the time and nature like the Ford and Zumwalt classes, and having heard from people involved it seems a lot of programs silently suffered a similar case, and in the Zumwalt's case an otherwise revolutionary ship didn't make it because of poorly it was managed and damaged the perception of such programs. The fact that the people who caused the death of such a program were never publicly outed is a crime in my book
Well. THAT was fascinating!
Ward I really enjoy your videos. Informative, well thought out, and a nice production. A big salute brother!
One of your best episodes Ward.
As a Boeing instrumentation I worked at pax on aircraft 07 to 10. I was flight ground crew on 10 and was there for the air show. Just recently I have worked on the CCRAM I was voted to receive the (V-22 Rotorcraft hero award)
A couple F-35's flew over my house the other day. The deep Intel I got is those damn things are loud....JET BLAST! THE SOUND OF FREEDOM!
They sound like Thor the thunder God. I've also had them fly over my house in NSW doing touch and goes at the local airport, loudest plane I've ever heard.
Mr Ward Carrol, you are an excellent interviewer.
100% fascinating stuff. Gotta say, you have the best high quality guests going.
Super interesting. Thank you guys!
Congratulations gentlemen. You have taken an impossibly complicated and advanced system and made it intelligible to the lay observer. Although I have Air Force Systems Command training from the 70s, I had
long ago given up trying to stay current. The F35 appeared suspiciously like a smoke screen for a boondoggle. You have cleared up the smoke. Thank you
A most excellent piece.
Thanks so much for the generous support!
Another AWESOME show! Thanks
great interview , great info / insight
Great video...very informative.
Nice work MOOCH! This was awesome.
Thank you!
Listening to you describe the ability to look through the jet as a solution in search of a problem was quite humerous :-D
Thank you for this wonderful content! You and Paco do not disappoint:)
Always a great interview with Pako
Thanks!
Best MilTech vlog active today.
Thankyou for The Atlas tip God Bless You All
Great video. Thanks, Paco.
Finland is also buying 64 F-35 fighters.
Thanks for this video awesome insight into the development, issues, and moving forward of the F 35 program.
Great convo! BZ Mooch and Pako!
Outstanding vid with Pako…very interesting!
Chip Berke, who had the skill and privilege to fly Vipers, Hornets, Raptors and Fat Amy was asked on Jocko's podcast what jet he would want to be driving going into a hot and hairy situation. Without the slightest hesitation he answered the F35.
He said the situation awareness is so far beyond the 4th gen jets and even the Raptor that it's not even fair. You basically have a HD picture of the battle space and then the helmet mounted cuing system.
She's not the best looking war bird, but she's certainly capable.
@@mcs699 I humbly disagree. It looks more Russian to me than American. No rearward visibility, which even with the amazing sensors and everything else, is a killer when the inevitable merge happens.
American fighters are known for their bubble canopies with awesome rear visibility. Our first mass produced 5th gen jet has literally no rear visibility?
I know it's all about stand off capability and long range kills, but in a legit hot war on the scale of prior world wars (God save us from that fate), Fat Amy is definitely going to merge with bogeys and it'll probably be a little sketch for our guy.
@@BlyGuy With today's weapons, there is no longer a merge.
No rear visibility?
Do you not realize the thing is covered in sensors and the helmet uses augmented reality?
@@BlyGuy
You mean God save the rest of the countries. Because China and Russia are going to be curbstomped so badly in any conventional war.
But your purpose with that trash post is just to try to undermine American confidence in their military.
@@dicktiionary that's what they say, but I have my doubts
The backward canopy is actually a lesson learned from the F-117, an example of how to NOT hinge a stealthy canopy.
Yeah, the original YF-35 had a manually operated, side-hinged canopy for cost savings.
Is the Pentagon telling me that for all the additional problems and system requirements that stemmed from the front-hinged canopy, the same problem couldn’t be solved the same way it was solved on the low cost YF-35 that could also operate STOVL?
How much Air Farce dick do I have to suck to get my tax dollars back?
@@chrisbullard5901 "YF-35"(sic)
X-35
"the low cost YF-35"(sic)
If you think $375,000,000 is "low cost" you must be a civil servant.
By the way how many MMH are saved by the front hinged canopy when pulling the seat?
Great information. Thanks for sharing 👍
Great guest!! He did a super job!!😊
more outstanding content from this channel. My thanks sir
It just started you haven't even watched all of it.
Thumbs up for the Space Ghost reference!
My favourite fighter in MSFS. Great video - kept my interest to the end. Fantastic guest. Cheers.
ward this is a really indept interview.great stuff Respect.
I'm amazed at how terrible the overall comment quality is on such a good video
And you added to the quality how?
Seriously. Lots of boomers and reformers who can't accept their their holy Warthog is obsolete.
@@fl1tz4r It was cool in Transformers, but still couldn't kill what it shot at. Metaphorically applies to A-10 IRL
Interesting, some time back when I worked as the Requirements Manager for new ATC Centre in the UK, I came across a couple of terms from the Prime Contractor Lockheed Martin’s engineers. Features and Enhancements. Features related to the way the systems responded to a bunch of requirements in a way we hadn’t anticipated. Enhancements were things the engineers put into the system, generally things we hadn’t a requirement for directly. Problem was there was no guarantee they would still be there in the next software build, even though they might be useful. This invariably would lead potentially to requirements “creep”. (Expensive and doom to project target completion).
Those last comments were the most fascinating and insightful, thanks.
In terms of programme management, it doesn’t matter the project chosen as success will follow the resources.
that subtle transition to the ad ;)
(love your videos Mooch!)
Thank you gentlemen. This is very interesting. I wish I could con someone here at Luke into letting me fly the simulator for a half hour. I would also like a half hour in the F-16 sim but, I don't know anyone there to ask so I'll just watch them fly from the house. They are launching over me as I write this. Way cool. Again, thank you both and be safe.
Watched a F-35B make a vertical landing right next to our commercial airliner in Iwakuni, what an impressive machine!
Great video Ward!
Thank you both for your service and sacrifices for our country.
"1.2 Trillion dollars, which makes the F-35 the most expensive acquisitions program in the history of the DoD..."
I think probably the most expensive acquisitions program in the history of the world.
Probably, but the ISS would like an honorable mention. At least the F-35 program has some utility.
starting to like paco more all the time, you guys are the perfect team a RIO and a WIZZO.
Always enjoy the podcast.
Great episode!
They had a simulator technology demonstration for the cockpit/helmet at PAX River. with the cameras for the pilot to be able to see any direction, I was able to sit in it with the helmet, it was like the plane disappeared and you could see the ground right below you. I was glad I'm not a pilot. It gave me vertigo just to experience the concept safely on the ground in a simulator
Awesome !!
Amazing info , THANKS.!
1st class...thanks for sharing